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Seanad Éireann debate -
Wednesday, 23 Jun 1971

Vol. 70 No. 7

British & Irish Steam Packet Company Limited (Acquisition) (Amendment) Bill, 1970 (Certified Money Bill): Second Stage.

Question proposed: "That the Bill be now read a Second Time."

The Government, in March 1965, purchased from Coast Lines Limited that company's wholly-owned subsidiary, the British and Irish Steam Packet Company Limited. The purchase price of £3,600,000 was based on valuation of the assets without any allowance for goodwill. The assets included three passenger/cargo/cattle vessels, six cargo/cattle vessels, properties at Dublin, Cork, Drogheda and Dundalk and liquid reserves amounting to £720,000. It was a condition of the purchase that the B & I should enter into an agreement appointing Coast Lines their agents in Britain for a period of 20 years at an agreed commission. The Government also had to give Coast Lines a written undertaking that the B & I would operate their business on strictly commercial lines as a self-supporting commercial entity without special measures which would place the B & I in an advantageous position as compared with Coast Lines.

When moving the Second Stage of the British and Irish Steam Packet Company Limited (Acquisition) Bill, 1965, my predecessor outlined the reasons why the Government had acquired the B & I. These were, mainly, to ensure effective Irish participation in the cross-Channel trade which was so important both from the point of view of tourism and our foreign trade. The B & I profits were diminishing rapidly and it was essential to acquire the company to ensure the continuation of its services as well as to ensure that in the rapidly changing situation in the cross-Channel services the national interest would receive proper consideration. He pointed out that the shipping trade was then facing a period of rapid evolutionary change which posed great difficulties for shipping lines operating conventional services.

The 1965 Bill provided for the operation of the company on a strictly commercial basis. There was no provision for Government assistance nor any provision for increasing the capital of the company. It was hoped that necessary new investment to meet the technological changes in the industry could be financed from loan capital which would be serviced from profits.

Following their appointment, the new board of the B & I decided, after full investigation, that the existing management structure in the B & I, which was geared to the overall management structure of Coast Lines, was not suitable to operation of the company as an independent Irish entity. The board recruited new management personnel with knowledge and experience in the marketing and financial fields and introduced a new management structure based in Dublin and including a modern sales and marketing organisation.

In order to compete effectively with the new passenger/car ferry services between Ireland and Britain introduced by their competitors and to stimulate the demand for this type of transport, which is particularly significant for the promotion and expansion of tourism, the B & I decided to replace their three conventional passenger/cargo/livestock vessels with car ferries. Two of these vessels have been brought into operation on the Dublin/Liverpool route and one on the Cork/Swansea route. The acquisition of these car ferries and the provision of the necessary terminals at Dublin, Cork, Liverpool and Swansea involved the company in capital investment and commitments of over £9 million. This sum was raised almost entirely by borrowing and the servicing of this borrowing has constituted a very heavy financial burden.

These services, however, have been operated on a profitable basis and the record shows their spectacular success. In 1966, 378,000 passengers were carried by the company. The serious outbreak of foot-and-mouth disease in Britain in 1967 contributed to a reduction in this figure to 306,000 in that year. In 1968, when the first car-ferry was introduced, the number of passengers carried increased to 360,000. This figure improved further to 480,000 in 1969 and 547,000 in 1970. The number of cars carried in 1968 was 43,000 rising to 78,000 in 1969 and 82,000 in 1970. Although they only commenced car-ferry operations in 1968 the company now control 37½ per cent of this market. I should add, perhaps, that these up-to-date vessels enabled B & I to pioneer the roll-on/ roll-off type of freight facility in this country. Now they are the only Irish operator of this type of service which is increasing in popularity. In 1968 they carried 5,157 wheeled-transport units, increasing to 14,300 units and 24,120 units in 1969 and 1970 respectively. These figures represent an estimated 30,000 tons, 90,000 tons and 140,000 tons of freight in each of the years 1968, 1969 and 1970 respectively.

In earlier years livestock traffic had been one of the main and most profitable activities of the B & I. Over recent years, however, this position has altered substantially. British Rail decided in 1968 to concentrate their declining stock of cattle wagons at Holyhead and were no longer able to guarantee an adequate supply of rail wagons at Birkenhead. This, and the preference of shippers for onward transport by rail in Britain, resulted in a fall-off in the numbers of cattle shipped by the B & I. Where, in 1966, the company had carried 176,000 head of cattle to Birkenhead, in 1969 they carried only 49,000 and none at all in 1970. In the years 1968 and 1969 they lost £376,000 on this traffic. A further factor was the announcement by the Mersey Docks and Harbour Board, which controls Birkenhead, that livestock facilities at that port would be closed down if the port were not guaranteed an annual throughout of 200,000 head of cattle and an annual income of £103,000.

The likelihood that Birkenhead would no longer be available for Irish cattle obliged the B & I company and British Rail to re-examine their entire position vis-à-vis the livestock services. There was a serious danger that the B & I would be forced out of this trade entirely, leaving British Rail with a virtual monopoly of a sector of shipping of vital national interest. After prolonged negotiation between the B & I and British Rail, agreement was reached last year on a proposal, which had the approval of the livestock trade, to operate joint livestock services through a consortium. The agreement provided that the two companies would provide ships to a common pool and for the operation of regular scheduled services to Holyhead, for cattle requiring onward transport by rail, and to Heysham, for cattle destined for onward transport by road. The consortium is under the control of a management board, consisting of representatives of the two shipping companies and of the livestock trade. The new management board will determine rates and negotiate on any proposed increases with the Irish Livestock Exporters' and Traders' Association. Any such increases will be related strictly to new factors, such as increasing costs, and machinery will be established to relate rates to actual costs of operation.

This agreement secures considerable benefits for shippers as well as for the B & I. For shippers, regular scheduled services are guaranteed for an initial period of five years with the possibility of extension for a further five-year period. Shippers are also assured of reasonable stability in freight rates. Furthermore, for the first time, they have secured a voice in the cattle shipment business through their representatives on the management board. For the B & I, the agreement means elimination of their losses on livestock carryings and a continuing guarantee of participation in the cattle trade.

The agreement also recognised that the future of Birkenhead as an entry port for Irish cattle was in doubt. This development was a cause, and not a result, of the inter-company agreement.

The livestock trade recently made representations to me and to the Minister for Agriculture and Fisheries about the desirability of ensuring that Birkenhead should remain open to receive Irish cattle. I arranged for officers of both Departments to discuss the matter with the trade whose views I conveyed to the consortium. It must, however, be kept in mind that the question of the future of the livestock facilities at Birkenhead is one solely for the Mersey Docks and Harbour Board. What is essential, in the interests of the trade, is that there should be a guarantee of regular service between this country and Britain.

The most difficult problem, financially and otherwise, which faced the company following the take-over was the declining profitability of their conventional cargo services and it was found essential to convert to containers and unit loads as rapidly as possible. By early 1969 all the company's cargo was being carried in specialised unit load ships. B & I are now market leaders in this field and account for 35 per cent of total freight movements in the cross-Channel trade. To achieve the full economic benefits of containerisation, however, required the construction of automated terminals and the provision of cellular container vessels designed for automated handling of containers in conjunction with the terminals. Because of the high level of dock labour which had been employed in the loading and unloading of the conventional vessels, the changeover to container vessels and the progressive approach to complete automation of loading and discharge involved heavy redundancy.

The B & I have long recognised the need to deal with this problem and, in July, 1967, with British Rail and Bristol Seaway Ltd., initiated a survey of operations at the Dublin cross-Channel terminal with a view to formulating a charter for cross-Channel dock workers. This survey culminated in the "Murphy Report" of May, 1968. However, even before this important report was made, the three companies had introduced an interim scheme of redundancy compensation payments, jointly operated and financed by themselves.

Following completion of the survey, negotiations on the recommendations contained in the Murphy Report commenced, under the auspices of the Department of Labour, between the companies and the trade unions concerned. Arising from those negotiations, the first stage of implementation of the Murphy recommendations on redundancy was the introduction, in January, 1969, of the voluntary options scheme. This replaced the interim scheme which had operated since 1967. Basically, both schemes provided for payment of a lump-sum to a docker on his retirement, together with a weekly pension in the case of those dockers with the necessary qualifying years of service. Depending on age and service, dockers can now qualify for lump-sum payments up to a maximum of £1,500 and for pensions up to a maximum of £7 per week. A total of 223 dockers who opted for retirement have benefited from the schemes to date. This has resulted in a reduction in the number of dockers on the register from 446 in September, 1967, to the present-day level of 223. Negotiations with the unions are continuing on the full implementation of the Murphy Report proposals and it is hoped that agreement will be reached in the near future. This will involve the B & I Company in further heavy redundancy payments to their dockers.

The company's full freight plan was estimated to cost £9 million and it had been hoped to find the necessary finance mainly by commercial borrowing and partly from internal resources including the disposal of redundant assets. The company were also exploring, in the context of their freight plan, the possibility of reaching an understanding with British Rail, their principal competitor, on the rational long-term development of cargo services between Ireland and Britain which would exclude unnecessary duplication and, by being open to all container operators at standard rates, would avoid the dangers of monopoly.

The company's development and the implementation of their plans have thus made excellent physical progress, but financial problems have arisen. Apart from the heavy losses sustained in livestock carryings, the company were involved in very heavy losses due to strikes at Liverpool in three successive years and to the outbreaks of foot and mouth disease in 1967-68. These, together with the maintenance strike in 1969 and the British dock strike in 1970, involved the company in losses estimated at nearly £700,000. The disposal of their older vessels, particularly the passenger/cargo/cattle vessels, yielded £1 million less than the figure at which they had been taken over. This was due to premature obsolescence of their passenger/cargo/cattle vessels because of the rapid development of specialised cargo, ferry and container vessels and also because newly adopted international fire safety regulations require costly modifications in their vessels which reduced their attractiveness to potential purchasers overseas.

By the end of 1969 the B & I found themselves at a crucial stage of their development. Apart from the financial difficulties caused by unforeseen losses and the heavy drain on liquidity imposed by the servicing of substantial loan capital, the company found that British Rail had also committed themselves to a major programme of containerisation with new cellular container ships and automated terminals on the same lines as their own freight plan. It was known that, in order to secure the volume of traffic necessary for economic operation of their new ships and terminals, British Rail aimed at securing a substantial increase in their share of the market. The developing situation threatened to bring about a freight war in the cross-Channel trade which would wipe out small independent operators and involve the two major companies in over-investment and heavy losses which would eventually fall on the taxpayer.

The B & I reported this situation to me at the beginning of 1970. They pointed out that in the absence of some agreement with British Rail they would have to face a period of very substantial losses until the growth in traffic would permit both companies to secure adequate traffic for economic operation. The B & I were also concerned that in a situation of unrestricted and uneconomic competition they should be supported by CIE who had developed container operations of their own on the Irish Sea in association with one of the other British nationalised transport companies. CIE operated containers only and not ships and with their British partner aimed to ship containers through the cheapest services available. In this very complex and rapidly changing situation I decided to engage specialised consultants to examine and clarify the issues arising. I invited McKinsey and Company Inc. to undertake this task because of their special knowledge and experience in this field. They had already carried out major studies for British Rail on which, inter alia, were based British Rail freight plans for the Irish Sea. They were engaged in similar studies for the European Railways Consortium.

British Rail were kind enough to agree that McKinseys could use the same consultancy team that worked for them and could also use the data already supplied by British Rail. As I announced at the time, the study aimed in the first instance at analysing operational methods, routes and scales of service and identifying and contrasting possible alternative policies for the Irish State-owned operators. In the light of this part of the study, adoption and implementation of definitive commercial policies would be considered. I made it clear that any measures recommended would have to be in accord with overall Government policy in relation to cross-Channel shipping which aims at ensuring efficient services at competitive rates for shippers, maintaining an equitable level of Irish participation in the trade, encouraging participation by private operators and excluding restrictive practices which are contrary to the public interest.

In their first report to me McKinsey and Company found that both the B & I and British Rail had each separately planned the most economic services for their own routes but that the total market for some years to come was not large enough for both the B & I and British Rail to obtain the traffic levels on which their plans were based. There would thus be considerable over-capacity throughout the early 1970s. Two separate Dublin terminals and too much ship capacity were being provided. British Rail were preparing to improve their market share by cutting rates which could mainly be at the expense of the B & I and B & I would have to match these rates to stay in business. Both companies would lose money which would ultimately have to be met by the taxpayers in Britain and Ireland.

McKinseys estimated that if the shipping operations of both companies were rationalised on lines recommended by them the two companies would be able to reduce their total shipping costs by over 12 per cent and achieve higher load factors. On the basis of the information available at the time of their report McKinseys estimated that there would also be a saving from operating to a joint terminal on a one-berth system at Dublin. However, escalating costs have in the meantime eliminated any prospect of such saving; as separate berth operation is now cheaper, the companies intend to proceed on that basis but to set up a joint terminal operating company to control and manage the two berths as a unit.

At my request, McKinsey and Co. communicated their report to British Rail also. At subsequent meetings between British Rail and the B & I, agreement in principle on rationalisation of shipping operations was reached, and settlement of the various operational and financial details leading to formal agreement is proceeding. This will lead to substantial savings in both operational costs, and capital costs in the purchase of equipment and ships as far as the two companies are concerned.

These agreements should not only protect the companies against losses caused by the operation of excess capacity but ensure the provision of adequate services at the lowest real cost with consequent benefit to both exporters and importers. On the other hand, the agreements do not constitute any kind of monopoly and will not provide unfair competition for independent operators of economic services on other routes.

McKinsey and Co. subsequently reported to me on the steps which might be taken towards the integration of the marketing operations of B & I and CIE. They envisaged the possible hiving-off of marketing by both concerns to a separate jointly managed undertaking which should enter into a partnership with a similarly representative British nationalised undertaking with safeguards against monopoly operation. These recommendations have been under examination by the B & I and CIE in consultation with the different British nationalised undertakings which would be concerned.

Because of the distribution of functions among the British nationalised transport bodies concerned and their commercial relations with B & I and CIE respectively, the proposal to establish a joint CIE-B & I marketing organisation was not found to be practicable and its adoption could threaten the proposed agreement between B & I and British Rail for rationalisation of ships and terminals and resurrect the threat of a rate war. B & I and CIE have now agreed, however, on marketing policies which will safeguard the efficient and economic operation of ships and terminals and provide for standard rates of charge for all users, public and private sector alike. These objectives provide for separation of the operation of ships and terminals from the marketing and through-forwarding of containers. B & I (Freightway) will operate as a separate marketing and through-for-warding operator on both sides of the Irish Sea. CIE will continue in partnership with the companies of the National Freight Corporation in Britain as a second marketing and through-forwarding organisation using the ships and terminals of British Rail and B & I or other nationalised shipping companies as appropriate. The ships will be open to other through-forwarding operators and marketers of containers at the same standard rates. This arrangement, which is expected to be acceptable to the British partners, will ensure the most economic utilisation of the heavy investment in ships and terminals by British Rail and B & I while avoiding monopoly and keeping rates at the lowest economic levels.

The proposed agreements and arrangements I have outlined should ensure the provision of satisfactory services at low cost for years to come while safeguarding the heavy public investment in the B & I.

I took advantage of the availability of McKinseys to ask them to examine and report also on the financial structure and capital requirements of the B & I. They reported to me that the company is in need of extra capital; that too high a proportion of its existing capital is in the form of loans, the servicing of which causes an undue burden and that additional equity capital to meet the company's immediate financial needs should be provided by the State. McKinseys consider that if this capital was made available, and provided rationalisation was agreed with British Rail and was speedily implemented, the company would be in a more favourable position to operate successfully on a commercial and competitive basis. They assessed the need for new equity capital at £3 million. This would be required principally to meet the B & I share of the cost of the new container terminal at Dublin, the cost of containers and other equipment and the buying out of the Coast Lines agreement. McKinseys confirmed the B & I viewpoint that the existing agency agreement with Coast Lines is now an anomaly. The agency concept had become outmoded because of the company's vigorous marketing by their own personnel in Britain of a door-to-door service and because of the changeover from conventional vessels to car ferries and unit-load ships.

The B & I in co-operation with the Holland/America Line inaugurated a twice-weekly container service at the end of April, 1971, linking the ports of Cork and Dublin with Rotterdam and Le Havre. This co-operation between the two companies offers a comprehensive door-to-door container service to and from the mainland of Europe. The service should prove a valuable asset to this country's continental trade especially now that we may be on the threshold of entry to EEC.

While this Bill provides for the contribution of up to £3 million by the Minister for Finance for shares in the B & I it is not contemplated that this new investment should be made all at once. In present financial circumstances it is not foreseen that more than a part of the equity required can be made available in the coming financial year. The B & I may, therefore, have to increase its borrowing for the time being and for this reason the Bill also provides that the Minister for Finance should be authorised to guarantee borrowings by the company. I should emphasise that the company has received no subsidies and no subsidy is provided for in the present Bill.

Since 1965 the whole structure of the company has been transformed. The company now provides a fully integrated shipping and marketing service. Their passenger services have been remodelled by the introduction of three modern car-ferries signifying the company's new role in passenger transport and their full commitment to the development of tourism. These vessels also enable the company to cater for the growing roll-on/roll-off freight traffic. From the carriage of conventional loose-stow freight in obsolete vessels, the B & I have developed to the position of offering through their marketing organisation a door-to-door unit-load service using cellular ships, automated terminals and freightliner trains. Through their agency agreements with foreign container operators they can offer service not alone to Britain and the continent but to North America and Australia. Mass-movement sea operations, coupled with an efficient inland network have produced improved services and operational economies for the company, the benefits of which continue to be passed on to shippers.

It may be said that these achievements during the company's early development stage have not so far provided commercial profits. However, the company's investments have now begun to pay off; the company made a profit in 1970. It must also be realised in retrospect that the company were faced with an impossible task when they attempted to undertake so vast a programme of capital investment on borrowing alone in the face of rising costs, rapid changes in the commercial environment and a number of unforeseen difficulties which involved them in heavy losses. I think it is enough to point out that when the company commenced operations in 1965 their fixed assets were valued at £1.2 million. At the end of 1970 they were valued at £8 million. Moreover, as I have explained, these changes brought about great benefit to the community and to shippers. Whereas the average sea freight realisation per ton of cargo through the Port of Dublin to the B & I in 1966 amounted to 102s 7d, in 1970 it amounted to 85s despite the inflationary increase in cost since then.

I confidently recommend the Bill to the House and I hope Senators will join with me in congratulating the board, management and staff of the B & I on the progress they have made since the newly purchased company was entrusted to their care by the Oireachtas in 1965.

I think that every Member of the House would join with the Minister in congratulating the board, management and staff of the B & I for the quite spectacular job which they have done since this organisation became a State-sponsored body in 1965. They, at that stage, took over what was a relatively outmoded and out-of-date shipping line and in the five or six years which elapsed have managed to transform it into what is a relatively modern and worthwhile operating body employing modern techniques and modern equipment and methods. They are, I think, in the light of the unsettled labour relations which obtain in so many parts of our economy, to be especially congratulated in their relative success in the changeover to containerisation and the redundancy payments which they have made to the dockers who were affected by this change.

The personnel of the B & I have been successful in a relatively short space of time in achieving for the company a completely new look and one which could well be passed on to many of our State-sponsored bodies if they are to gird themselves for the eventual challenge which must come with entry into the EEC. It can be fairly said that the people employed in this organisation have been setting their sights on this target and have realised the economies of sea freight and the difficulties contained therein. I suggest to the House that that has applied, not just at the level of senior management, but right down the line to the lowest operative in the organisation.

The Minister referred to the arrangement with Coast Lines Ltd., in 1965, whereby the Government purchased the wholly-owned subsidiary of Coast Lines, the British & Irish Steampacket Company. One distressing feature of that initial step seems to me to be the drastic over-estimate, in book value, of the ships which were the property of the company at that time. I do not think the Minister, in his fairly comprehensive brief, went in any detail into the fact that apparently the book value, which was the value paid for by the taxpayers, of the ships, turned out to be 100 per cent more than they realised when they were sold. This, to me, is the one really distressing feature of the history of the B & I so far. Perhaps this should not be laid at the door of the B & I Steampacket Company.

In that context it is fair to refer to the fact that in relation to semi-State or State-sponsored organisations or bodies, the availability of accounts and the opportunities for Members of the Oireachtas to assess their financial performance is still less than satisfactory. While we have been given a fair amount of information and financial figures in this particular case, there is still uneasiness among Members of the Oireachtas that they have not got a full and detailed account of the financial operations and standing of State-sponsored bodies generally.

From the figures the Minister has given us it would appear that the financial operations of the British and Irish Steampacket Company have, despite their very heavy capital expenditure, been quite impressive. The figure of fixed assets rose from £1.2 million in 1966 to £8 million in 1970. This was probably the best single figure produced by the Minister in relation to this organisation, because we must take into account the fact that the £8 million of fixed assets now relates to modern equipment, plant and operations, whereas the figure of £1.2 million in 1966 referred to equipment which was antiquated and not geared to the rapidly changing operation of similar companies throughout the world.

The figure of capital employed, rising from £2¼ million in 1966 to some £8¾ million in 1970, is also impressive. This, linked with the fact that the turnover of the company has almost doubled and that in 1970, for the first time, they showed a profit, even though a small one, indicates that all goes fairly well for this State-sponsored body. It would be less than correct, Sir, in any discussion concerning the B & I and their operations if one did not refer in passing to their link with the tourist industry and the fact that it is providing an integrated essential service for this industry. The Minister knows my views on the tourist industry and the fact that the British market is the single most lucrative market for this country and the one least tapped by Bord Fáilte.

I do not see what is wrong with an organisation like the B & I, working either in conjunction with, or, if necessary, independently of, Bord Fáilte, endeavouring to develop increased markets for their car ferry services in Britain. I understand that in the past few months, this organisation have offered an attractive package deal arrangement in this connection. It is unfortunate that there is not more co-operation on the part of Bord Fáilte with the shipping company in an effort to encourage this type of trade. I hope the Minister, in his reply, will deal with the suggestion that there should be a fairly intensive direct, rather than indirect, advertising campaign aimed at the British market, explaining to the potential customers there the ready availability of the car ferry services being provided by the company and of the services being provided by Aer Lingus from some of the cities in Britain, the fact that this part of the country was one which was readily accessible from most parts of the British midlands, and that attractive rates could be offered by either the B & I or Aer Lingus.

This is an essential part of the B & I operation and one which will have to be complemented by support from Bord Fáilte. I would suggest to the House a vigorous policy of direct advertising rather than the workshop type of arrangement which Bord Fáilte have been providing in Britain. The type of person who comes to this country on holiday on the B & I car ferry is likely to be the middle aged, middle-class type, who for the remainder of the year watches television or reads for his amusement. If the B & I, and consequently the country and Bord Fáilte are to benefit, such people will have to know of our existence. Again I stress to the Minister the best way to do this is by direct advertising on the television and the mass media generally in Britain rather than by the indirect approach through a travel agent.

The one distressing point about the car ferry operation is that while the figures have continued to rise from a nil figure in 1967 to 24 per cent in 1969, the fall off in the increase for 1970 is a very pronounced one resulting in a final increase of only 3.2 per cent. I do not think that the B & I should be held responsible for this. There are various reasons involved, which we have all heard very often, and there is no point in repeating them now. However, it is my firm belief that this fall-off is partly attributable to the lack of sufficient direct advertising in the British market. The more attractive rates which can be offered on the car ferry from, say, Dover to Calais, than on the ferries to this country, must also be one of the factors which influences the British tourist in deciding to go to continental Europe rather than come here. There is also the fact that on the ferries travelling between Britain and continental Europe there are many incentives by way of duty-free cigarettes and drink, and purchases generally, which are not available between this country and Britain. It might be well worth while for the Minister to examine the possibility of providing duty-free facilities and concessions on the car ferry routes and on the Aer Lingus routes between Britain and Ireland. It is just a small point but it is one of the factors that influence holiday makers in deciding which way to travel.

The Minister has dealt in fairly great detail with the concern of the livestock trade about the continuing availability of Birkenhead as a port of entry for Irish cattle into Britain. I understand that the recently established consortium between British Rail, the B & I and the Livestock Exporters' Association has still some small difficulties to iron out before it begins to operate completely successfully. The two main carriers, together with the representative organisation of the exporters, have got together in one organisation, and this augurs well for the success of our export of cattle to Britain. The Minister is correct in saying that the continued availability of Birkenhead is not something which can be decided by anybody in this country; it is the responsibility of the Mersey Dock Board. However, there is a certain amount of pressure and representation which can be made by organisations here which have traditionally supported Birkenhead and put a lot of money into the port of Birkenhead and greatly increased its turnover. I urge the Minister and the B & I to make every effort to ensure that sufficient points of entry are made available at all times for Irish cattle into Britain.

I have some degree of understanding as to why the Minister should have decided to employ the firm of McKinsey to carry out the survey into the activities of the B & I. They had previously done a survey for British Rail and I suppose they were the most obvious people. However, I should like to take this opportunity to say how apprehensive I am to discover, of late, that foreign-based management consultancy firms seem to be the only ones considered by the Government to be suitable and competent to make reports on Irish public bodies.

Or on the Irish language. They are importing an anthropologist from California no less to advise us on it.

Sin ceist eile.

I expected the Minister to say "no problem".

It is a problem that no anthropologist——

(Interruptions.)

We had the situation recently of an American firm coming into the peculiarly strange set-up of Irish public bodies operating the health services in order to advise as to how the new Health Act should be operated. This is not the time to give any lengthy observations on their recommendations; suffice it to say that I view with a fair amount of trepidation the future administrative set-up of the area health boards.

The Senator should bear in mind that this is the B & I Bill.

The point he is making is very relevant.

Not relevant to this Bill.

If I could have a moment, Sir, I will endeavour to make it relevant to the Bill.

No matter how many moments the Senator has, he cannot make the health services relevant to this Bill.

I want to show the line of progression between McKinseys being employed as consultants to the health boards and now being employed as consultants in the local government service, and then being employed as consultants to advise on the B & I company. I wonder if there is no equivalent company in this country, using Irish personnel and Irish expertise, employing whatever profits or fees that they were paid in helping the economy of the country, rather than at all times having to go abroad to employ a team of consultants, however admirable the consultants may be. Anybody who has read the Sunday Times, and various other publications in Britain in the last few months, might have serious doubts about the merits and the advice rendered by this same firm of McKinsey and Co. They have had spectacular successes, but I would suggest to the House that their efforts in the other direction have been just as spectacular. We all remember another American firm of management consultants who operated on a very large scale in this city for a year or two. There are some firms in Dublin who still remember their operations to their cost. In this particular case I can see why the Minister felt obliged to employ McKinsey, following their having being employed by British Rail.

I have to agree having looked at the figures of the B & I that the B & I were definitely and urgently in need of additional capital. It was obviously an unhappy situation where two-thirds of the company's capital was being provided at that time by way of loan. The purpose of this Bill is to correct that situation. For that reason it is one which would be welcomed by all sides in the House.

Just before I close, I should very much like to congratulate the company on their recent link-up with the Holland-America Line and again to refer to the fact that this is a vital agreement to have been concluded at this time, because it opens up to us not just short-haul routes, which the company were operating at that time, but virtually the whole of the international shipping market. At this time, in 1971, with our EEC negotiations at such a crucial and critical point, to have this connection with the ports and routes established by the Holland-America Line is a very vital one for us. It also helps very much in the on/off truck and transport services, which are becoming so common and popular throughout the world. The company again are to be congratulated in that regard.

Finally, one of the main consolations that can be taken from the Minister's speech here today and in the other House a few weeks ago is that there is an urgent need in this country for the development and a clear definition of a national transport policy, so that B & I, CIE, Aer Lingus, Bord Fáilte and everybody else associated either directly or indirectly with transport and transport services will know where they are going, what they have to provide, how they are supposed to provide it, the way in which the Government expect them to do it, to what level, by when and at what cost. The time is long overdue when the relevant Minister should enunciate clearly a national transport policy. We have the relevant Minister here today. Perhaps it would be too much to hope that he will clearly enunciate a national transport policy in his reply? Let us then appeal to him to do so some time in the near future. In the meantime the board of this company and its management and staff deserve the congratulations of this House on their very definite achievement in having revolutionised the company in the course of the last five years. If some others of the semi-State or State-sponsored organisations could emulate that achievement the economy of the country would be in a better position.

First of all, I should like to compliment the Minister on his comprehensive speech on this Bill and on his outline of the transport situation generally in relation to cross-Channel services between Dublin, Liverpool and Birkenhead. The proposals in the Bill are well worthy of support, as is the British and Irish Steampacket Company. It would be true to say that the State came into this business just in time. If one is to judge by newspaper reports of imminent agreement on the European Economic Community, rationalisation of our transport and freight services to Britain is becoming even more essential. Leaving aside any views one might have about foreign consultants the use of the particular firm, McKinseys, in view of their co-operation with British Rail and that the firm were also employed by the European Railways Consortium, is a good thing.

The co-operation and rationalisation with British Rail are very necessary since none of us would welcome anything in the nature of a price war with a national service of another country. Along with Senator Boland I should like to express appreciation of the co-operation which the B & I company are giving to the tourist effort. Anyone listening to the account given by the Minister of the startling increase in the number of cars being brought into this country will appreciate what this company have been doing over the past few years. They are also giving considerable co-operation in the servicing of tourists in so far as the Dublin region is concerned. They are also a member of the Dublin regional tourist association.

Some word of appreciation might also be expressed to Mr. Con Murphy and those who assisted him in drafting the Murphy Report. It has helped to ease the situation, of which we were all aware, in relation to the Dublin dockers.

I should like to support another point made by Senator Boland relating to the question of duty-free facilities. I have seen reports of resistance on the other side of the channel to this. It is a proposal that has been put forward by the regional tourist organisation and Bord Fáilte. Anybody looking at the situation from the point of view of competition in tourism must see that this country is at a great disadvantage, assuming that people either smoke or drink, vis-à-vis either France or Spain. It may not be important to people who are not interested in these things, but people going on holiday seem to get great satisfaction from being able to buy a bottle of spirits or a couple of hundred cigarettes without having to pay tax.

We have been making representations on this, as the Minister is probably aware of. I should like the Minister to renew the pressure for change and if anybody in this House has anything to say that would help the Minister I should like to hear it said. We have a lot of serious competition in tourism. We have a situation where there has been considerable escalation in prices of one kind or another. We are not competitive in our drink prices compared to cross-Channel prices due to higher rates and higher taxes. If something can be done to introduce duty-free facilities for visitors to Ireland it would be a boost to tourism.

I commend the Bill and compliment the British and Irish Steampacket Company on the very good work they have been doing over the past couple of years.

I should like to say a few words on this Bill principally for the purpose of asking the Minister some questions arising out of his speech. I am a little bit disturbed at some of the matters which have been referred to by the Minister. I think we would all join with Senator Boland in the complimentary remarks which he has made regarding the work of the B & I and the improvements made by the board of management. The Minister began his speech by referring to the fact that the purchase price of £3,600,000 in 1965 was based on evaluation of the assets without making any allowance for goodwill. Further on he referred to the fact that when the company commenced operations in 1965 their fixed assets were valued at £1.2 million. I want some explanation of those two figures—one mentioned at the beginning of the Minister's speech and the other mentioned at the end of his speech. I am sure there is an explanation, but it is not self evident if a purchase price of £3,600,000 was fixed without having regard to goodwill. That would seem to indicate that the purchase price was fixed on the basis of a valuation of fixed assets or liquid assets, principally fixed assets, at that figure at the time of purchase. However, we find that the fixed assets were only £1.2 million according to the Minister's speech.

The second matter that disturbs me about the—I hesitate to use the word "disclosure" because it would seem to imply something sinister and I know that was not the Minister's intention nor is it mine—Minister's speech is the discovery that two bodies operating under the auspices of his Department, CIE and the B & I, should find themselves with a conflict of interests. The Minister mentioned in the course of his speech the link-up between CIE and a competitor of the B & I as regards container traffic. Both CIE and the B & I are operating—I am using that word loosely—under the auspices of the Minister and his Department and it would seem to be one of the foremost points of transport policy for the Minister to ensure that that kind of situation would not arise. If there was going to be a tie-up as regards container traffic by CIE it should be with the B & I. It seems to me from the Minister's speech that that situation is approaching but I do not know how long the other situation has continued. Obviously, it was a situation which was disturbing to CIE.

The third matter on which I should like the Minister to give some explanation, which would reassure me and possibly other Members of the House, is in connection with the agreement with and undertaking given to Coast Lines when B & I were being acquired in 1965. The Minister makes it quite clear at the outset of his speech that two things were done in a positive way when B & I were being acquired by the Government. Firstly, it was stipulated and apparently carried through that there should be an agreement whereby Coast Lines were appointed as agents in Britain for B & I for a period of 20 years. The Minister mentioned that that was one of the stipulations and no doubt it was done. Secondly, it was necessary for the Government at that time to give a written undertaking that B & I would operate their business on strictly commercial lines as a self-supporting commercial entity without special measures.

So far as I am concerned, and I have no doubt this applies generally to Members of this House and the other House, I want to see any agreement entered into by the Government, whether it be with another country or with a commercial concern, fully implemented. I do not wish to see such an agreement interfered with unilaterally by our Government if the agreement is disadvantageous to us or to the particular interest, in this instance the B & I, with which the Government are concerned. In such a case it is a matter for the Government to renegotiate the agreement and secure better and more favourable terms. I would like to be reassured that has been done on this occasion because it does not appear, from the Minister's speech, to have been done.

The Minister has indicated, quite fairly, that it was necessary for the Government to give a written undertaking that B & I would operate on strictly commercial lines as a self-supporting commercial entity without special measures. He points out that, under this Bill, B & I are not receiving subsidies and have not received subsidies. I agree with that but I could not agree—and I do not think any of us could agree—that this Bill does not constitute a special measure of assistfor the B & I. If the taxpayer, via the Government, are buying in to the extent of £3 million in equity of B & I, it seems to me that that is a special measure of assistance and we should regard it as such. I should like to be assured that that is not in breach, even by implication, of the undertaking given by the Government when they acquired B & I.

As regards the agreement appointing Coast Lines as agent in Britain for B & I for a 20 year period, I should like to have the Minister's assurance that this will not be unilaterally disregarded by us or by B & I but that the matter will be negotiated with Coast Lines.

That is in the course of happening.

The Minister may agree with me but it does not seem to be evident from his opening remarks because he reflected the view of B & I that the agency agreement was now an anomaly and pointed out that that view was supported by McKinsey. He seemed to stop short of saying that it was being renegotiated. If it is that is all I want to know.

I should not like to see a situation arising where we would unilaterally disregard an agreement of that kind even if it transpired that it was not to our advantage or to the advantage of B & I. I should like the Minister to deal with those points when concluding.

I have very few observations to make because this is a sphere of activity of which, I regret to say, I know very little. The only thing that brought this company to my notice some time ago was the fact that the cattle freight rate shot up by 25 or 26 per cent. What I find most confusing about this Bill is that we appear to have more than one Irish semi-State ship-owning organisation. It is quite evident from the Minister's speech that even CIE, which one might say have the monopoly of transport in certain sections in our country, do not appear to be able to fall in with B & I. Perhaps there is more room for co-operation here.

It is difficult to know how much subsidisation we can have in this country. I regret that those of us who are not very conversant with this business did not have an opportunity of ascertaining exactly what the company propose to do with this extra £3 million. It is worthy of note that, on each occasion when Aer Lingus sought an increase in capital for their company, they afforded Members of the Oireachtas an opportunity of seeing exactly what they were doing with their money. This was a great help to enable Members of the Oireachtas to understand the problems and see them in a different light.

In fairness to the Shannon Free Airport Development Company they, some years ago, did likewise. This is a type of operation I personally like, and I am not referring now to the fringe benefits—I wear an assortment of pins of one kind or another. It is much easier for a person like me to understand the difficulties and problems. I have never been on a ship, so I do not know what the whole thing is about. But I do know that since B & I became State-owned the cattle freight rates have shot up dramatically. This is an extraordinary state of affairs.

Despite the Minister's assurance here, there are people who are not happy that there is a long term guarantee that there will be facilities available for the cross-Channel shipment of Irish cattle in the years ahead. The Minister touched on this in his speech but nevertheless there is still room, I regret to say, for doubt. We have, of course, on the other hand, the growing trade in the export of meat via container traffic. Again, the Department of Agriculture and Fisheries curtailed the issuing of licences for meat factories. Nevertheless, this is a line of agricultural exports which is expanding. Perhaps it may offset the problem in some way.

Surely the Minister for Transport and Power should be able to insist that organisations under his Department, CIE, B & I, Irish Shipping and others should have complete co-operation between one another and that the public should get the cheapest and most economic service possible?

I should also like to take this opportunity to ask the Minister, from a tourist point of view, whether boat trains should wait for the boats to come in during the tourist season. Occasionally there is a tragedy or something at sea which delays a boat. The trains do not wait and this causes grave upset for the tourists. It is the country people, people who are destined for the western or midland regions of the tourist areas, that are suffering all the time. It is all right for the people in the east. Once the boat docks and they are landed they have no problem.

We in the midland and western tourist regions are not getting a fair crack of the whip. Surely a big organisation such as CIE, with their first cousins in the B & I, should be able to get together and arrange some sort of service? The Irish public certainly have an extraordinary capacity for enduring inconvenience caused by a host of different things. I expect that one of these days there will be a breaking point. I would look on it as being the job of the Minister for Transport and Power to see that these semi-State organisations, who, whether we like it or not, are being helped by the taxpayers, should put on a service to suit the people. There is no point in having a train running tomorrow—one should run today as well.

I find that, if I opt to travel to Dublin by CIE on a train and if I take a bus from Abbeyleix, where once there was a railway line, it can happen that the train might just have pulled out or you might have to dash the last 50 or 60 yards across the footbridge. It is a good thing to have trains running on time; but nevertheless in the tourist season, while we do not want to get back to the West Clare Railway type of operation, there should be some flexibility to facilitate passengers. We have not that many services running that you can say the next train is coming in so many minutes later. This is something I should like to see exercising the Minister's mind at some stage.

I support Senator Boland's idea of introducing duty-free concessions on the cross-Channel routes. I do not see any great difficulty with Aer Lingus. It would not affect me as a traveller because I neither smoke nor drink. Nevertheless, we are pricing ourselves out of the tourist market. It might be a help to inveigle some of these wouldbe tourists if we even got them half way at the cheaper rate and let them get a hell of a shock when they dock. The State have nothing to lose on a venture such as this. The Minister with his colleagues should seriously consider this suggestion made by Senator Boland.

I regret we did not get an opportunity of seeing this operation first hand. Nevertheless, the figures, as outlined, are quite good and we wish the company every success. As they are now semi-State their job is to give the Irish people the very best possible service at the most efficient and cheapest rate.

I should like to make one point about the McKinsey people. I have absolutely no faith in these international consultants. I know nothing about McKinsey but the Department of Agriculture and Fisheries employed Jones and Davies or Davies and Jones after their scheme——

It would be better if other firms were not mentioned. McKinsey and Company are referred to in the Minister's speech and may be referred to, but other firms ought not to be mentioned by name.

I quite agree but I have been disappointed that another Department, without any names, employed a firm of consultants——

Not under this Bill.

——and they recommended to our Government a system which had been found to be unworkable under another jurisdiction.

This has nothing to do with the matter in hand which is the British and Irish Steam Packet Company Limited (Acquisition) (Amendment) Bill, 1970.

Is there no one at all qualified in this country to improve our services, must we always look either east or west? Apparently, we are not relying on ourselves any more. There are Irishmen in the present generation as good as ever there were. They are well able to use computers and examine matters in depth. I have no faith in these people. First of all these foreigners, whether they are British, Continental or American, have a different mentality to the Irish and do not understand the Irish mind. They are at a disadvantage starting off. It is a complete waste of money.

Wait until the Californian anthropologists get started.

They have been long enough talking about the Irish language. Look at the mess they have made of it.

You have been messing with it for 50 years and it has not improved that much.

You were making paddys out of the lot of us.

(Interruptions.)

Senator McDonald on the Bill.

Why not go back to the British Empire?

I am sick of this new technique of getting in their dirt under cover of being innocuous on a Bill.

Senator McDonald to proceed on the Bill. Interruptions must cease and I would ask Senator McDonald to restrict his remarks to the Bill.

Surely I am entitled to comment on something that is referred to in the Bill? The Minister has, after all, referred to this and surely I am entitled to comment? B & I have not given me an opportunity to see firsthand what they are doing and all I know about them is what the Minister has said here in his speech. He told us that he had some firm of consultants looking at the company, consultants who also examined their English counterparts. The Department of Agriculture and Fisheries did exactly the same.

That does not come into it. The Senator has been in order in criticising the employment of a consultancy firm but the details of the activities of such agencies in other Departments do not arise.

The point I was making is that it has often been found that these foreign people may not always have the right idea of what way we can improve our services over here. I do not wish to persist, but in another Department the report was out-of-date in Britain when it was submitted here. Therefore, I look rather suspiciously on the Minister's present advisers. I do not wish to pursue this matter any further.

I wish the B & I every success and I look forward to the utilisation of this added capital to the benefit of the Irish public.

This is one of the occasions where we can welcome the Bill and welcome the progress reported by the Minister in a very comprehensive Second Reading speech. I share with Senator McDonald and others a feeling of the inadequacy of the information that we have generally on such operations due to the inadequacy of our parliamentary system where we have not got adequate committees to deal with this.

The case made for the B & I seemed to be quite reasonable in every way. The record of progress is quite encouraging. However, the fact is that we are asked to vote an additional £3 million and we are just devoting a couple of hours in an afternoon session to it. A matter such as this should have been preceded, if at all possible, by some type of parliamentary committee that would have looked into it. In that way we would have an opportunity of having a more detailed and closer examination of the facts and figures.

The Minister glossed over very lightly in his speech the abandonment of Cork by the B & I and the great volume of criticism that was stirred up two years ago when the decision by the B & I at that stage to transfer most of their operations to Dublin was announced. It is a pity that it was not possible to stay that. We regret that the headquarters and general staff of yet another company are making a major contribution in Dublin.

We are building the ships in Cork.

I know you are, but you could do it a bit more. I am not speaking directly for Cork but I am looking at the Government's policy for decentralisation and saying that we pay wonderful lip service to it at election time, but in practical application there is always a good economic reason why it cannot be done. I think the present development of B & I illustrates that. There is also the difficulty implied here between B & I and CIE and a suggestion of difficulties of overlapping arrangements and so on with regard to marketing investigations and likewise. Again this highlights the necessity to face up to some proper parliamentary committees for the coordination of State-sponsored bodies.

Senator McDonald was inclined to suggest that this is all the responsibility of the Minister. The Minister himself would deny that he had this real responsibility. With nobody having responsibility we find that State-sponsored bodies, under the obligation of operating on strictly commercial terms, are very often forced to do things that are not in the general national interest. It is high time we had some type of a co-ordinating committee of the Oireachtas to ensure that at all stages the overall national advantage is borne in mind and that the State-sponsored companies have to operate within that framework. We are not satisfied with the situation as it is at present.

I do not wish to take up the time of the House, but I have a few queries. The Minister speaks here of a written guarantee given to Coast Lines Ltd. that B & I will operate their business on strictly commercial lines. I was not aware, when the Bill was passing through the House in 1965, that there was any question of a written guarantee being given. At that time we felt we were paying more than sufficient for Coast Lines Ltd. which at that period were on the downgrade. I do not think Seanad Éireann were aware there was any question of a written guarantee being given. Indeed, on the question of the company having to operate on strictly commercial lines, we have heard this many times before in connection with semi-State enterprises. We always find some years later that that could not be quite achieved, and there has to be some subsidy or some subvention or other given to get around it. Therefore, I question how the Government could have given a written guarantee that was really binding at that period.

On the question of the transport of cattle, I wonder whether that it is as satisfactory as the Minister's statement would lead us to believe. I see my colleague here from the cattle trade who will, no doubt, have something to say on that. It seems the increase in rates for the transport of cattle to England has risen out of all proportion in recent years and represents almost a levy on the cattle trade. Why is this the case and could the Minister give any justification for these recent increases?

I suppose the consortium with British Rail is necessary seeing we have to use all the facilities at the other side. This may be a way of introducing some stability into the trade in the future. I hope the real stability that will be introduced into the transport of live cattle from this country will be that there will be proper processing, that they will no longer be transported from here, that the transport of live cattle will become an unhappy memory of our undeveloped past.

The Minister mentions the taking up of three million additional shares. I should like to know what return the Minister expects on these shares and what return has the Minister got on the shares he already holds in this company, over the past few years.

With those observations I can welcome the Bill. I do not share Senator McDonald's complete distrust of all those concerns. We have to look at their reports critically, and, if we combine their knowledge of situations elsewhere, we get a critical appraisal of what they recommend and we will be using their services in the proper manner.

I do not intend to say very much at this Stage. I was not here for the Minister's opening statement and I have not studied it. Having been abroad, I have not studied the Bill. I do not agree with Senator Quinlan's death wish on the livestock trade. I, as a nominee of the Irish Livestock Exporters' and Traders' Association, should not like to see the end of the export of live cattle.

It is for the betterment of the country.

We shall see. I hope it does not come true. We have had many meetings during the past 12 or 18 months about the B & I, Birkenhead and other matters. I give the Minister credit for co-operating in every way with the cattle trade. He appointed two nominees on the consortium and in other respects he has given his full co-operation. The Minister is well aware of what may happen to the Irish livestock trade if Birkenhead is closed. This is the big danger. I agree with Senator Quinlan's comments about setting up a committee from the Oireachtas for these semi-State bodies.

In 1965 the then Minister for Transport and Power, Deputy Childers, introduced the first Bill and the livestock traders thought it was the best thing that ever happened to the livestock trade. Unfortunately, it turned out to be the reverse. However, the present Minister is endeavouring to rectify this by setting up the consortium. It is too soon to pass comment on this as they have been in operation for only six months. I know from experience that Heysham is not working out to be a successful port. The people who are operating into Birkenhead are obviously making a success of it. We in the cattle trade would be satisfied if the B & I opted out of Heysham and had the two alternative ports of Holyhead and Birkenhead for the consortium to operate into.

I read in the newspapers recently that it is likely the Menai Bridge will not be in operation until the end of the year. That has nothing to do with this Bill. I am just mentioning it with regard to Birkenhead. I will have more to say on the Committee Stage of this Bill.

I always welcome the Minister for Transport and Power. Since I joined the Seanad he has brought in some liberal and important legislation dealing with transport and power. He has to tread the difficult path between asking the Oireachtas for State subsidies or capital grants for State bodies and semi-State companies and of trying to claim, at the same time, that they are now out of the red and making profits and that from now on all will be well. It is a difficult thing to do and my basic philosophy is that State bodies such as CIE will have to get continuing capital grants and subsidies. We must have our services and we have to pay for them.

I should like to look at this Bill from another point of view. I should like to make some criticisms of the company involved and the effect they have on some of their competitors. I should like to make some criticisms of the Department and I hope these will be accepted, as I mean them to be, as constructive criticisms put forward in the very best spirit. The B & I are a company which have not quite the same standing as other State companies. When they became a semi-State company in 1965 they were not in a monopoly position. There were various other Irish shipping companies—I am specifically interested in the Irish coastal shipping companies —with whom they were in competition.

I should like to look at the Bill from points of view of some of the competitors of the B & I and also some of the users of the B & I facilities. I have a few penalty shots for the Minister, at the same time remembering the historic occasion when he turned them all past the post in Croke Park recently. Perhaps some of these shots will go over his head and reach officials of his Department and, maybe, even get as far as the board of B & I.

Before I begin making criticisms, I should like to say that it is evident to all that the company displayed remarkable dynamism. A completely new look has taken over in Irish shipping activities as a result of B & I's operations in cross-Channel shipping, and I wish to join with the congratulations of the other Senators to the board of B & I for having made such a thorough and powerful job of the company to which they were appointed in 1965 when the Government took over. However, the dynamism which this company possess at the moment can react adversely on competitors and a State company of this type have, first of all, to maximise their profitability. At the same time they must not knock out competing private enterprise. One of the functions of a company of this type should be to encourage Irish firms. In other words, wherever they can, they should buy Irish.

I should like to talk about the freight side of B & I operations of which we have a very comprehensive review in the Minister's Second Reading speech. Last Monday I was privileged to attend the launching by the Minister's wife of the new B & I cargo vessel, Wicklow. The fact that the launching took place in the Verolme Dockyards, Cork, by Irish labour and that the vessel was built and fitted out by Irish expertise, is a matter of real gratification. But it is not so satisfactory to learn that at the moment the B & I have four vessels being built by the Upper Clyde Shipyards. There are two reasons for this——

It is Irish Shipping Limited.

Irish Shipping have four vessels being built there? The B & I have none?

It is an Irish Shipping matter.

I am in error there. There are two points about this: first of all, that they should be built by a foreign company when there is a yard which is making tremendous progress in building some fine ships in Cork; and the second is the obvious problem with the Upper Clyde Shipyards. We hope that this can be sorted out, but one must say that, whenever possible, these vessels should be built in Ireland. I know that the B & I have had the Leinster built by Verolme. The other passenger vessels, the Munster and the Inisfallen, were built abroad, but now that we have a yard and that it is running so well, we should encourage a State company involved in Irish shipping to have their vessels built in Ireland.

I should like to say something about the competition between the B & I and the coastal traders. I have not every detail here, but there are several private enterprise firms that operate coastal or tramp shipping in this country. There are two operating from Greenore and Waterford and these are containerised, so nobody can say that we have not got any modern coastal shipping firms. It is worth recording that the firm operating out of Waterford were the first Irish firm to provide container facilities in Ireland. It has been extremely successful. We should remember that sending cargo in Irish ships is, first of all, an invisible export and that sending cargo from Ireland in foreign ships is an invisible import.

In 1951 it was calculated that £2½ million left the country annually in freight and marine insurance charges on trade with Britain alone. We could double or treble that figure now and it gives us an idea of the magnitude of the business in which we are dealing. Therefore, on any occasion in which an Irish exporter or an Irish importer can use Irish shipping, he is increasing his country's prosperity. When he exports or imports by means of foreign-owned ships, he is doing the reverse. We have everything to gain by encouraging our Irish coastal shipping firms. There are three other firms, two in Arklow, one in Cobh. Senator Quinlan has pointed out that the B & I send their freight from Cork via train to Dublin and ship to Liverpool. There is now no direct freight service from Cork. There used to be one, as mentioned by Senator Quinlan. There is a roll-on-roll-off service and there is also a passenger car-ferry service operated by the same ship, but there is no direct sea freight service from Cork to Liverpool.

Let us suppose that some goods are going from Cork to Liverpool. The most economic way would be to send them directly by boat, and they could be sent by an Irish coastal ship. However when the coastal shippers see that freight goes to Dublin by CIE, which have a subsidy and capital grants, and then from Dublin to Liverpool by B & I, which are in receipt of considerable State capital, they feel, sometimes justifiably, that they are competing as private Irish shipowners against two State firms in receipt of State subvention. They are at a considerable disadvantage and feel that the through rates that can be quoted by B & I are less because of the State subvention.

This is knocking the small coastal traders, and it is something that we should get absolutely clear. I have been talking to some of the coastal traders. I am indirectly connected with the coastal shipping business. My family owned a firm that sent barley to Dublin and they always sent it via the Arklow coastal ships. The Port and Docks Board put an end to the particular port facilities that the coastal ships were using in Dublin, but they proved to be extremely efficient and it was a satisfactory way of transporting Irish goods.

I wish to refer to another point, and if I am wrong I should like the Minister to correct me. B & I have ships on charter from Shelbourne Shipping Company. This company are Irish crewed but Danish owned and financed, which means that the operating profits from the transportation of the goods go to B & I, but the capital profits on the boats, the major profits, go to Denmark. I should like to know why, for example, the Irish group of coastal shippers were not asked to do this operation. It would have involved purchasing container vessels, but it would have been a golden opportunity for the Arklow coastal shippers to take long-term charters. They could have bought these container vessels, they could have modernised their fleet and then chartered them to B & I. I want to know from the Minister why a Danish owned and financed company are doing this charter work and why the money is not staying where it should be—with the Irish shippers.

To give an idea of the magnitude of the operation, take the port of that fine city, Cork, to which Senator Quinlan has referred. Through that port 4,600 ships passed last year. Eighty per cent of those ships were less than 1,000 tons so they could be classified as tramp coastal steamers. Our attitude has been wrong because we have tended to look at the Irish Sea as an obstacle. We are an island race. We should not look at the Irish Sea as an obstacle but we should be developing our shipping, which B & I are doing. One of contentions is that this is at the expense of our coastal shippers. We should be looking for a large Irish coastal shipping trade. One of the ways of doing it is by getting the Irish State companies to use the coastal shippers for charter work, for transport of goods in every way they can. Otherwise there is no hope of developing our tramp sea trade.

I should like to refer to the regulations of the Department of Transport and Power which affect Irish coastal shipping and which are now out of date and a hindrance to the operations of this coastal fleet. The regulations which govern Irish coastal shipping are based on UK regulations. The UK coastal fleet, for one reason or another, has virtually gone out of business. It never recovered from the war. The regulations have stayed the same and our coastal shippers have a terrific handicap compared to their continental competitors who have much more flexible regulations.

I should like to know from the Minister why some of the continental legislation has not been introduced and put into operation here. Somebody facetiously remarked that it was probably because British legislation is easier to translate into Irish than either Dutch or German. I do not think this is the case but there is no doubt that our coastal shippers are at a terrific disadvantage in having to adhere to legislation which is out-moded, which is based on British legislation which was based on a fleet which virtually no longer exists.

The problem of lack of flexibility is the key to the whole problem of shipping legislation. We are short of flexibility in our regulations. The Department of Transport and Power's regulations are inflexible. I should like to give some examples of the difference between our set-up and that of the continentals. Many of the operating costs of a vessel here are calculated on gross registered tonnage. The crucial figure is 500GRT—gross registered tons. An amazing number of the continental vessels are registered at 499.9 tons. This is the figure they give, this is the figure that appears in the books and as far as our ports and docks are concerned it 499 tons. However, three of these vessels were recently bought by Irish shippers and the registration changed dramatically overnight. The Dutch registered vessels appearing at 499 tons suddenly jumped up to 506 tons, 622 tons and 547 tons as far as the Department of Transport and Power were concerned.

The point I am making is not that we should attempt to be dishonest but that our regulations are out-moded and out-of-date. Take, for example, the classification of ships, which is something of great importance to B & I and to the coastal traders—the classification between home trading, or essentially short run shipping, and foreign going vessels. Our legislation, which is based on the British legislation, is geographical. We say: "You are a home trader, therefore you must not operate outside a certain quite confined area."

This inhibits our coastal trading a tremendous amount. An Arklow ship in Belfast recently was offered a cargo to the Canary Islands. It could not take it because he Canary Islands are outside the limit for the home trading vessels. There is no such geographical limit on the continental vessels. Danish and Dutch ships are not controlled geographically but on the size of the boats. French ships are controlled by the power of the boats which is an equivalent sort of registration. Our regulations are far too inflexible.

There are also manning regulations which affect those ships and again we are at considerable disadvantage vis-àvis our continental competitors. The home trading ships in this country must carry an extra mate and a certified cook in comparison with the continental vessels who are allowed more flexibility. Flexibility of manning is tremendously important if the labour costs of those vessels are to be cut down. The labour costs of these vessels hinge on everything today. It is not so much the capital costs—the Irish shippers can take the capital costs because they can borrow the money— but there are returns in this trade provided the labour costs are sufficiently low.

A complete overhaul of our legislation and our approach to coastal shipping should be made. We must not allow the Department of Transport and Power to permit the small people to be squeezed out because the B & I are so big. The B & I people have a lot of pull. They use it, and good luck to them, but it is our duty as members of the Oireachtas to see that this pull is not used unfairly to give the big boot to small Irish shippers who are doing a valuable job in the coaster shipping trade.

I spoke of the problem, as the coastal shippers see it, of the subsidies to the State companies and I should like the Department of Transport and Power to take a long hard look at the legislation under which our coastal shipping works, and also to take a look at the fees they charge. I have got some figures here. Load line certificate survey fees between 300 and 500 tons in 1949 in respect of those classed as ships by Lloyds were charged £10, while the unclassed ships were charged £22 for their load line certificate. In 1968 the classed ships were charged £34 while the unclassed ships were charged £124. In 1962 the extension fee for master's certificate was £2; in 1968 it was £16 10s. All these are burdens on our coastal shipping and I should like the Department of Transport and Power to take a more liberal view. We are going into the Common Market shortly and we will need all the coastal shipping we can get. Rather than discourage those people in private enterprise, who are earning this country revenue, mostly revenue from outside the country, we should be encouraging them by every means possible. As one of the shippers said to me: "The Department of Transport and Power regulations make our ships so safe that we can hardly go to sea."

They are ridiculous compared with continental legislation. We ought to look at this matter. I know the Minister has an outward way of looking at such things but the EEC makes this discussion doubly important. When we enter the EEC we will have increased trade with the continent. We do not want the greater part of this trade to be handled by the Dutch, German and French coastal shipping fleets. Let it be handled by B & I but let it be handled by the small Irish coastal shippers as well. They should be encouraged rather than discouraged in this regard.

I should now like to suggest some matters which the Minister might undertake. He could revise the tonnage measurement rules. He could revise the Government regulations governing certificates for foreign-going coasters. I referred to this as the problem of geographical limitation. There is no limitation on Dutch, German or Danish coasters but there is on our coasters. Our coasters cannot go outside a very small, closely defined area. It is a ridiculous regulation and is completely out of date. We have got to get wise to these matters, otherwise we will fall further and further behind in competitiveness when we enter the EEC.

We should change our taxation policy. We should do something about our fees, which have escalated from £12 in 1949 to £124 in 1968-69. We should do something about nautical training for people involved in the shipping industry. France has a regulation which prohibits cargoes from being carried between French ports on foreign vessels. Cargoes must be in French-owned and French-manned vessels. We have not got many ports but we have cargoes travelling between them and we should look into the possibility of a similar regulation here.

We must look into our legislation from a wider point of view. I should like to encourage the Minister to take a broader and more generous view of the pride of people in coastal shipping. He should not allow them to be squeezed out by giants like the B & I. B & I are a giant put up by the taxpayer and it is our job, as Members of the Oireachtas, to ensure that a fair deal is had by the smaller men. That is my reason for labouring this point. No other Member in this House or in the other House has raised this point, but I want to raise it very strongly. It is our duty to ensure that the smaller people get a fair deal. They are doing an important job. Let us see that they do not get squeezed out and let us see what we can do to help them. They are Irish firms and need our help as much as B & I. B & I have plenty of pull to get the money. I admit they have a tough job to do, but so have the smaller people. Let us ensure that they also get help.

Now I should like to say something about passenger services. I have good qualifications to make remarks about the B & I passenger services because I spent five years in the UK and travelled by sea in preference to air travel. I have travelled more than 200 times between Ireland and the UK and virtually all those journeys were by sea. I have travelled with most shipping companies except the small company which operate from Preston. I should like to add my voice to those of Senators Boland and Brugha in advocating the provision of duty free facilities. It would be of tremendous help to our shipping companies and it would also, of course, help British Rail.

The B & I operate three vessels on the cross-Channel run. The Leinster and Munster operate between Dublin and Liverpool and the Inisfallen between Cork and Swansea. The majority of their crossings are overnight but in summer there are daylight crossings. The first mistake—and perhaps it was a natural mistake—that was made was the purchase of two vessels, the Munster and the Inisfallen, which, I think, were built in Germany and were originally designed for a Scandinavian company operating Baltic daylight crossings. This is very sadly reflected in the facilities offered on those ships. I took the trouble of checking with some travel agency people before making my personal remarks in this regard. Those people said: “These ships have many fine points. The B & I have got through rates to the continent. They have connections with the continent. They have done a lot to sell their shipping, to sell their travel, to sell their roll-on-roll-off car ferry service, but nothing will make up for the fact that these boats are going on overnight crossings with very few berths. Nothing will make up for this.” I have got some figures on this and I shall quote them in a few minutes.

The Cork-Swansea crossing is the longest journey and takes more than nine hours. The Dublin-Liverpool journey takes about eight hours. If a person is travelling overnight for eight hours he will want a berth. However, most people cannot get a berth. The provision of an aircraft-type recliner seat is a joke. I hope the Minister will convey that to the company. Aircraft-type recliner seats with television overhead are provided by the B & I if you are unlucky enough not to get a berth.

On my last crossing from Liverpool I walked on board the boat and was greeted by six one-armed bandits just inside the ship—the slot-machine shipping company. I do not like calling names but I think one-armed bandits are not the things to have in a State shipping company. They should be thrown overboard or written off, but I suggest we should get rid of the one-armed bandits by any means.

What about the two-armed bandits?

Two-armed anthropologists Professor Kelly was referring to. There is one one-armed bandit on the British Rail ships Cambria and Hibernia but I think six is a bit too much. As soon as I stepped on the boat the first thing I saw was the one-armed bandits.

It is very enterprising.

It is not the sort of enterprise of which I approve. I am not sure whether other Members of the House approve of this sort of thing, but I certainly do not approve. My experience of crossings with B & I have been singularly unhappy. They have been unhappy because they have been connected with the lack of berth facilities. If we remember that the Dublin-Liverpool crossing is used extensively throughout the winter we can see the necessity for an adequate number of berths. It is a very good service but it is marred because you may not be able to get a bed. There are more beds provided in the British Rail services and the crossing is less than half as long. When you travel by British Rail you reach Holyhead by 1 o'clock after a 3¾ hour journey. That is quite a difference when compared to the nine-hour crossing to Swansea.

I shall now quote from a magazine called Which of January, 1970. They did a survey of cross-Channel shipping from the consumer's point of view. A relative of mine claims that on a crossing on the old Inisfallen, which I am glad has disappeared, one-third of the passengers travelled first class and had two-thirds of the space and the remaining two-thirds travelled second class on the remaining space. One had to travel second class on the old Inisfallen to realise how rough the going could be. My relative claimed that he shared a cabin with a greyhound. Apparently a lot of greyhounds travelled on the old Inisfallen. Whatever about travelling with a greyhound, he was lucky to have a cabin. The fact is that there are not enough cabins on the present boats.

It is interesting that this Which survey was written when the new boats were in service. The B & I Shipping Company, as far as passengers and crew are concerned, come off the worst. The main reason is because of the lack of berths. Also the magazine claims that on the Swansea-Cork ship Inisfallen, the maximum number of passengers was 1,200 and the maximum number of berths 256. The report states that nearly half the passengers could not get exactly the booking they wanted and about one in five found they had booked too late to get a berth. That gives a fair idea. The survey was by the Consumer Association people. Many found there was not enough seating and only about one quarter of those who used them found the seats comfortable enough for a night's sleep. That refers to the aircraft-type recliner seats which I mentioned earlier.

With regard to the Dublin/Liverpool crossing on the Munster and Leinster, the maximum number of passengers is 1,000 according to the survey. The Leinster has 256 berths, the same as the Inisfallen, and the Munster has 242 berths. There are 16 double cabins on the Leinster. I should have mentioned there are 16 double cabins on the Inisfallen.

Only half of the passengers on whom the Consumer Association had checked got the type of booking they wanted. Some of them were told the cabins were fully booked and when they got there they found they were not. A third of the passengers found the cabins were too noisy, by far too hot and there were complaints there were not enough toilets. Over half found the seating too uncomfortable to get a proper rest. You want pretty comfortable seating to be able to use it for nine hours, from 10 or 11 o'clock at night to 7 o'clock in the morning. I should like to complain strongly, as a consumer and a passenger using the B & I ferry.

The roll-on-roll-off service is good, the car ferry service is good but the number of berths is deplorable. I hope this message gets through and I hope that something can be done about it. It is a very bad image if such a large number of people had to complain. B & I have got a tremendous proportion of our tourist trade, but a large proportion of the people are dissatisfied with the facilities on the boats. I mean my criticisms to be made constructively and regarded as such. I think it is very important that these points are made clearly and strongly.

My final penalty shot at the Minister is something I feel very strongly about. It is not unfair in that I made this criticism recently to a member of the B & I board and he said that the particular complaint I had to make had been raised and nothing had been done about it. If saying it in the House here does something, at least I will have achieved something. I hope it will put a bit of pressure on it.

I cycle around Dublin quite a lot and having to come in through the side gate of Trinity College whenever I am coming from the north side, I cycle across Butt Bridge where there is a pretty grim railway bridge which obscures the Custom House from the western side. There was some talk that the Minister was to wave a magic wand and shift it a few hundred yards down river. It really would be tremendously useful if that could be done. I do not know whether it is possible, but that has obscured the view of what is probably the finest building in Dublin, Gandon's Custom House, a really magnificent building but it is impossible to see it from that point.

When you turn the corner and come round Butt Bridge and go down the quays, as you have to if you are coming up, you have on the north bank the Custom House what should be a magnificent view. You do not have the railway in the way. Over on the north quay there are the beautiful blue and cream Guinness boats. A bit further down the south quay you have got the Irish Lights Ship Granuaile and the other Irish Lights ships, beautiful ships; but completely obscuring the view, virtually the only view of the Custom House from around there, is the good ship Kilkenny which belongs to the B & I—and through them the Minister —with its hideous funnels. It is just a hulk. It has got this dreadful black and yellow colouring. It is an absolute eyesore and disgrace berthed right in the centre of Dublin where it has been berthed for more than a year.

I can quite realise that the B & I company may have trouble in disposing of such a dreadful boat. Who would want to buy it? It is terrible. I am glad Senator Brugha is here because as chairman of the regional tourist organisation this will be something near to his heart. We have seen pictures of Deputies of all parties fishing things out of the Dodder. Perhaps we could have a big picture of the Minister for Transport and Power tossing the Kilkenny——

We are having it sold.

The company may have trouble selling this boat, but for goodness' sake move it away from the centre of Dublin. It is a disgrace. It is just disgusting. Each time I pass it, which is about three times a week, I get more worked up. So I wanted to let off a bit of steam here because it is irresponsible to have an object like that parked right in the centre of the city. I hope the Minister can see very swift action on this point because surely it is not beyond the ability of the B & I to move it off somewhere else where it will be less visible. Whether they sell it is not my concern, but just move it away from there.

These are the main points I wanted to make on this Bill. I hope the fact that I have not spent my time praising the operations of the B & I board have not made my contribution any less worthwhile. I certainly feel that the B & I board are to be commended on many of their activities and the way they go about things, but it is important for someone in the House to put the other person's point of view. I hope I have somehow or other put the point of view of the competitors, the small coastal traders and also put forward some of the complaints of the users of the B & I passenger service.

I want to thank the Seanad for a very constructive debate on this matter. Senators Boland and Brugha both raised the point which is of very current interest concerning duty-free facilities. Other Senators, including Senator West, mentioned this aspect also. As I said in the Dáil, a report has recently come to hand, prepared by Bord Fáilte in conjunction with B & I and Aer Lingus setting out the facts and data in support of granting these facilities. I am having this report examined at the moment. There are aspects concerning the Exchequer which have to be balanced before such facilities are granted. Discussions are proceeding with the other interests in Britian concerning the matter. I am certainly very attracted by this idea and by the arguments set out in this presentation to me by Bord Fáilte. I think that particularly as far as the B & I are concerned, where for a long period of hours there are as it were captive customers aboard, the proposition is very attractive. However, I will be saying more about this when the matter has been fully examined.

Senator Boland also spoke about the need to enunciate a national transport policy. This is a matter with which I propose to deal in due course either by way of publication of a White Paper or otherwise; but I do not propose to publish here any such overall policy that would commend itself for the next ten years here until certain negotiations, discussions and examinations which are being made at the present time are concluded. We have nearly completed the final sharing arrangements that will apply between the B & I and British Railways, and between the B & I and CIE. These rationalisation discussions were prompted by the findings of the McKinsey team of investigators into the whole transport situation, in particular as it affected cross-Channel transportation. Pending the final result of these discussions it would be premature to announce any such overall policy, but I expect to do so within the next six months. It is also tied up with a very detailed investigation being carried out by McKinseys at the moment into the whole CIE position and the whole structure of CIE, in particular in regard to the rail services.

Also, I should like to emphasise that, in this very complex international business, we are concerned with the arrangements that we can work out with transportation companies in other countries, particularly in Britain and also in Europe. Indeed, complex as the situation is here at home, it is even more complex in Britain where apart from the private interests involved there are six separate State enterprises in transportation. Once we have these matters ironed out I intend to do what Senator Boland suggested.

Senator O'Higgins raised the point concerning CIE and B & I. I agree with the principle of the matter he raised that it is obviously wrong that two State-sponsored organisations should be in any way duplicating each other in regard to their activities. On this aspect, B & I and CIE, as I indicated in my opening remarks, have now come together on a rationalisation of their activities involving sharing of facilities and sharing of shipping space. Again, this is tied-up with the situation in Britain where CIE have an arrangement with one of the British State operations, the National Freight Corporation, and B & I are tying-in, as I indicated, with British Rail on rationalisation of terminals and shipping space also.

However, plans are now reaching fruition and the details will be announced very shortly. Our plans are reaching fruition in regard to the complete interlocking of CIE, B & I and British Rail and the sharing of their equipment, terminals and shipping space, without taking from their competitiveness. I want to emphasise that. In any such arrangement in regard to sharing of the facilities there will be complete independence as regards marketing. This is the principle that we are following so as to ensure that rates are cut to the lowest possible level and that customer and exporter are fully protected. These organisations will not be in a monopoly position as regards marketing. There will be independent marketing operations but sharing of existing facilities with consequent substantial saving both in capital and operating costs.

Senator O'Higgins raised the point about the Coast Lines agreement. It was part of the agreement in 1965 that Coast Lines operate in an agency capacity for B & I in Britain. McKinseys regard—and it confirms our own opinion and B & I's strong view too—this as superfluous and unnecessary having regard to the door-to-door marketing system that B & I have built up. Now, we feel, is the time to get rid of this agency arrangement which was incorporated in the agreement in 1965. Negotiations are practically completed as to a price for the discontinuance of this agency arrangement, and one of the purposes of this Bill is to supply the capital that will enable the necessary financial arrangements to be made with Coast Lines.

Senator O'Higgins also raised the question of the difference between the fixed assets and the assets as purchased. The fixed assets are as the accountant wrote them in the book but the purchase price had to be negotiated, and negotiated hard; and even though the ships that were purchased in that deal had subsequently to be sold at a loss of almost £1 million that was part of the deal and in retrospect the deal was well worthwhile when you regard the tremendous escalation that has taken place since in shipping costs. To start off with the sort of organisation, equipment and ships which this completely refurbished company now has would be a very costly business indeed. This points up the foresight of the 1965 decision to get into this business for the protection of the Irish economy and the Irish exporter. It was a very important, crucial and, in my view, a fundamental decision. Even though in retrospect you may say that too much was paid for the ships at that time it has been well worth it now when one considers the sort of progress that has been made by B & I, the sort of arrangements that are now being made by them which will guarantee the continuing involvement on the part of the Irish State for the benefit of the Irish exporter and the tourist industry in this important cross-Channel and indeed European and world trade which will now accrue having regard to the link-up that B & I have negotiated with a major world shipping line, the Holland-America Line.

Did the Minister say that the purchase price was based on a valuation of the assets?

That does not seem to me the same thing as hard bargaining. There is a valuation or there is not.

I grant that it is certainly arguable, to put it mildly, that too much was paid at the time for the ships. I would defend that on the basis——

I am quite satisfied having got the explanation. It did seem to me that there might be a conflict between the figures. I was simply inquiring about it.

Was that £1 million marked down as a loss then?

Yes. That is one of the losses that I referred to in my opening speech.

Is there not £1,400,000 apart from that?

There was some liquid cash as well at the time. Then, of course, many of the terminals that were purchased at the time, taken over with the company, were also obsolete or have been rendered obsolete since. That is the explanation of that apparent discrepancy.

Senator McDonald also raised the point about duty-free facilities, with which I have dealt. He was also critical of the employment of international consultants. On this aspect I feel very strongly that we must be outward looking, not inward looking. If we can get the advice of consultants who have already advised major national transportation corporations such as British Railways we should avail of such expertise and the type of information that is at the hands of consultants of this kind. In this way a lot of research and spade work is saved, time is saved, and you get much quicker recommendations. That is my practical defence of the employment of international consultants of this kind who are au fait with this whole complex matter of transport rationalisation.

It seems acceptable but the point really is that McKinsey are now employed in so many fields of government that it would be fair to say that McKinsey are running the Government and not the Government employing McKinsey.

The important thing is that the ultimate decision resides with the Government and the Minister responsible. Consultants are useful from the point of highlighting the problem but the ultimate decisions have to be made by the Government.

This brings to mind the point made by Senator Quinlan and touched on by Senator O'Higgins in regard to the coordination of State-sponsored bodies. Senator Quinlan queried the fact that there does not appear to be such coordination. I would regard my function as Minister for Transport and Power, supervising a number of these State-sponsored bodies, as that of the coordinator hired by the taxpayer for that purpose. The purpose of the Department of Transport and Power is to ensure that there is this required coordination and that there is overall supervision resting in the appropriate Minister acting on behalf of Parliament. This is as it should be.

Senator Prendergast raised the question of the cattle trade. Again the best situation we could work out in the circumstances was to get together with British Railways to guarantee the future transportation of live cattle for the next five years with the possibility of a re-negotiated agreement for a further five years beyond that—to guarantee the future in regard to the export of livestock. This consortium has been on the way for some months and the livestock trade is represented on it and is working well.

Senator West raised a number of very interesting points, particularly in regard to regulations under the Merchant Shipping Act. While not strictly relevant to this particular legislation, the points he raised are very much under consideration in my Department at this time. We have had meetings with the Short Sea Traders' Association about these regulations— many of which are now obsolete— relating to tonnage measurements, certificates, etc. These discussions are continuing between the Short Sea Traders' Association and my Department. As a result of these discussions, merchant shipping amending legislation is now in course of preparation in my Department and I hope to come before the Oireachtas in the near future with such legislation.

Senator West rightly mentioned that private enterprise will have a continuing and expanding place in freight transportation. The private firm he mentioned that sails out of Waterford has been a pioneer in the containerisation concept, cross-Channel and to Europe. They and other private enterprise firms, such as the one operating from Greenore, are very important in the overall interest of the body of the Irish economy in ensuring competitiveness in this field. This is the paramount objective, to ensure that rates are competitive for the benefit of the exporter. It is becoming more important as we depend for our standard of living, to a growing extent, on exports, particularly in view of our imminent entry into EEC. As far as Ireland is concerned, having regard to our geographical location, competitiveness in regard to transportation is going to be all important to our expansion in the economic sense.

What about the point raised about the charter boats?

I envisage that the charter arrangement will soon cease. It was solely an interim arrangement pending the completion of new ships for the company including the one that was launched on Monday. When the ship launched on Monday is fully effective for service, then some of the charter arrangements will terminate.

I hope that further arrangements will be made with Irish shippers and not with Danish firms.

This is again commercial business. Priority is always given to arrangements with Irish firms in these cases, but cost is a factor which must be taken into account. Similarly with regard to the Cork Shipyard. I would like to emphasise that the Verolme dockyard in Cork gets priority so far as any ships being booked either by Irish Shipping or B & I are concerned. As far as Irish Shipping are concerned, the welcome fact of the matter is that the Cork shipyard is booked up until 1973 with the present construction and has orders flowing in that will guarantee its total utilisation for years ahead. They were just not able to do the Irish Shipping boats which were required as a matter of urgency in regard to fleet replacement.

Would we expect that at the next launching there might be a fair representation of the Oireachtas in the invitations extended?

We had a representative from the Fine Gael Party, Deputy Tom O'Donnell. Deputy Justin Keating represented the Labour Party and Senator West was present. Now that Senator Boland has spoken out it can be taken that he will be present——

Virtually every Senator and Deputy in the Fianna Fáil Party.

The Kilkenny, referred to by Senator West, is being sold.

That was not quite the impression I got last Wednesday.

I agree with the Senator that it is an eyesore.

It is a case of berthing.

We are in the hands of the harbour authority in that respect. I will take up the matter, as the Senator has raised it. If there is any other matter I have omitted I will be glad to deal with it on subsequent Stages or by correspondence or discussion.

The importance of this Bill resides in the fact that here we have a company that have been taken over by the State, have proved outstandingly successful in completely re-equipping themselves, and are now in a profit position. The trading profit last year amounted to £1 million, which was more than double the figure achieved in 1969. The graph is up in regard to their activities. They have a rising graph in regard to freight carried, in regard to passengers carried, in regard to cars using the car ferry service.

How about the future car ferry service?

I am optimistic there. All the indications are that this particular type of tourism is increasing. The indications from B & I for the current year are good. Again we have not yet got the precise figures, but there will be an increase between 6 and 10 per cent in car ferry traffic this summer, if present trends continue.

Can the Minister explain why it is cheaper to go by Dover-Calais than to go, say, Liverpool-Dublin?

It is shorter.

Not particularly.

I shall look into that aspect. The important thing is that here we have a company in which all the indications are that following a vast capital re-equipment programme, it is now showing a trading profit. The company now has a completely new fleet, new terminals, automation, a new system of containerisation, with a new concept of door-to-door selling, with emphasis on liner-train utilisation; containerisation as far as rail and road is concerned; with roll-on-roll-off freight facilities available on the car ferry vessels.

On its record in seven brief years, this company is well worthy of the type of investment that is now proposed in this measure. I should like to emphasise the word "investment". This is an investment which will be a remunerative investment as far as the community are concerned. All the indications are that this will be the case. They now carry 35 per cent of the cross-Channel traffic. By the arrangements that I have mentioned earlier—the interlocking arrangements proposed in particular with British Rail and with CIE—it is guaranteeing their continuity in this business in the future. This is important as far as the Irish community are concerned, that by these arrangements with a huge organisation like British Rail, the B & I are guaranteed for the future, and the State have a stake in this important business that is so vital to our economy.

The purpose of the Bill is to ensure that this additional equity investment, to a limit of £3 million, can be made by the State and that any borrowings that are required by the company to supplement that equity investment will be also guaranteed by the State. It is with confidence that I commend the Bill to the Seanad and I wish to thank Senators for their constructive contributions on this measure.

Question put and agreed to.
Agreed to take remaining Stages today.
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