Export Promotion (Amendment) Bill, 1971: Second and Subsequent Stages.

Question proposed: "That the Bill be now read a Second Time."

Minister for Industry and Commerce (Mr. Lalor)

The principal purpose of the Bill is to make provision for further grants to Córas Tráchtála, to enable that body to continue the work of promoting, assisting and developing Irish exports.

The Export Promotion Act, 1959, under which Córas Tráchtála was established, fixed at £1 million the total amount of grants which might be made to the board out of moneys provided by the Oireachtas. Subsequent Export Promotion Acts raised this limit; the last one, in 1969, raised it to £9 million and the present Bill proposes to raise it to £15 million.

There is little need for me to emphasise to this House that moneys made available to Córas Tráchtála are well spent. Senators are well aware of the vital importance of the board's task and of the efficiency of their operation.

It is 12 years since the Export Promotion Act of 1959 set up Córas Tráchtála as a statutory board, taking over the functions of Córas Tráchtála Teoranta. During those 12 years, Córas Tráchtála have made a notable contribution to the development which brought total exports from the level of £130 million in 1959 to £468 million in 1970 and, at the same time, increased exports of industrial goods from some 32 per cent of this total to 53 per cent.

As industrial activity expanded in volume and range, Córas Tráchtála's operation was coherently and constructively extended to provide exporters with the aids and services they needed and to help them in opening up new markets and consolidating their foothold in existing markets. An indication of the expansion involved is that Córas Tráchtála, in 1970, dealt with more than 1,000 Irish firms, including new industries, and estimate that their services are used regularly by 95 per cent of the country's major exporters.

The board has been quick to provide new services as they saw industry's needs for them arising. Thus they have provided specialist consultancy services in market research and design management; and a special industrial exports section to help exporters of engineering and capital goods. They have, while maintaining their general range of services, used their resources constructively by directing major efforts successively on different markets. They opened new offices as required in Britain, North America, Australia, Germany and France and they intend to open two more offices in Brussels and Milan, giving them four centres, initially, within the EEC countries.

Export development cannot be separated from industrial development as a whole and Córas Tráchtála have played their part here also, their specialised knowledge being in many ways at the disposal of Irish industry. They have pioneered in the field of industrial design development and they collaborate with the IDA and the Institute for Industrial Research and Standards on consultative and working commitees dealing with re-equipment, and research and development grants. They also participate in the work of the Committee on Industrial Progress, which was set up under my Department to assess the progress made by industry in preparation for free trade, with special emphasis on product policy and marketing.

Payments to the board by way of grant-in-aid up to 31st March of this year totalled £7,611,885, which left a balance of £1,388,115 out of the existing statutory limit of £9 million.

This is less than the board's financial requirements for the current year, which amount to £1,754,000. I am sure that Senators will agree that Córas Tráchtála must have adequate funds for its work, on which so much depends. I confidently recommend provision of an additional £6 million for this purpose.

There is one additional provision in the Bill. This is the amendment of Section 3 of the Export Promotion (Amendment) Act, 1969 which provided power for Córas Tráchtála to assist architects and engineers in relation to certain design and planning services in connection with engineering and construction works abroad. There was no intention to exclude quantity surveyors from benefiting under the earlier Act. Their exclusion was merely an accident of drafting. They are equally concerned with architects and engineers in design and planning services and the present amendment proposes to enable them to benefit to the same extent as architects and engineers at present benefit under the 1969 Act.

Mr. Alexis FitzGerald

It will be a comfort to the House and to the Minister, whom we welcome here, to know that I have very little to say on the subject. However, basically I should like to welcome what is proposed. From all the information that I have about Córas Tráchtála, I should like to observe that they do their work most excellently and are thoroughly deserving of the additional support which is proposed to be given them by this Bill.

Perhaps it is not wrong that a body such as this is as good as it is permitted to be by the funds that are made available to them and by the quality of the staff under their distribution control, and also by the capability of the people who tender advice. They can only give advice and assist exporters with suggestions and recommendations and other material assistance in their power. Córas Tráchtála cannot go beyond that. They can bring the horse to the water but they cannot make him drink. The extent to which Córas Tráchtála have succeeded in making that horse drink is indicated from the opening words of the Minister when he indicated the remarkable development in exports which has taken place between the years 1959 and 1970. I think it might have been more interesting to have let the figure run from 1956, when the export tax reliefs were introduced first. They have also played a notable part. Córas Tráchtála would not dispute perhaps an even more notable part in bringing about this development, which resulted from the positive proposals made in the years which preceded 1959.

I should like to end with this observation and I am sorry that the leader of the House is not present to hear it, but he is well represented. The last words of the Minister indicate the desirability of patience on the part of the Government and on the part of the majority party in both Houses, when they get irritating and pettifogging points, made apparently by people who have to debate measures with a view to trying to improve the drafting. Now I am told that it was not intended to exclude the quantity surveyors from a benefit which, if the Bill had been properly drafted, they would have got since 1969. Obviously they have not been slow in making their needs felt. It indicates the desirability for patience in the matter of Committee work done both in Dáil Éireann and in Seanad Éireann and the usefulness of good Committee work and the opportunities which should not be missed by Deputies and Senators in trying to improve legislation which is offered to them.

I should like to think, now that we are moving into this new challenging community, that bodies such as Córas Tráchtála might, in collaboration with other bodies, consider this whole question of invisible receipts and invisible exports. The earnings of architects, engineers and quantity surveyors are now recognised in the last Act and in this Bill as being real earnings for the community, as if goods had been exported by them instead of the services which were rendered by them.

The whole range of services that might be rendered by this economy in the new context of the European Community ought to be considered with a view to seeing what we can do, either to develop new services, or to encourage the rendering of existing services, not necessarily limited to those that are dealt with and enacted in this Bill.

I welcome the Bill.

Mrs. Farrell

This Bill will get a welcome from everybody. None of us would like to think that our export efforts would be hindred in any way by lack of finance. Throughout the years Córas Tráchtála have done a good job and it is right that they should have the money placed at their disposal to help us to increase our export trade.

I am concerned about how this money will be spent. We have the IDA, with offices abroad. We have Bord Fáilte, Córas Tráchtála, both with offices abroad and we have our Embassies. It would be a practical step to have all these offices housed in one building. They have different functions but a type of Ireland House in the countries of the EEC would be a good idea. Our Embassies should play a greater part in selling Ireland. It is good prestige-wise to have nice residences for our ambassadors. We have two ambassadors in Brussels at present. We are still a poor nation and should recognise this and do our housekeeping accordingly. Our ambassadorial residences should be in the centre of cities to promote the trade and the exports of the country as well as the prestige of the country.

I am also concerned about the appointment of personnel in Córas Tráchtála. The day-to-day running of the board is very rightly the concern of the members of the staff, but they are, under section 20 of the 1959 Act, answerable to the Minister for their functions. I should like to know what qualifications are needed for jobs in Córas Tráchtála. The advertisements for some of these jobs are gloriously vague. On asking for an explanation as to what type of qualifications are needed, one comes up against a stonewall.

Recently, Córas Tráchtála advertised for an interpreter-translator. One would think that normal procedure as is followed by the Local Appointments Commission would be adopted and that a written test and an oral test would be held in the language which the translator-interpreter would be required to use. This was not done. Instead, there was an interview held in English and the unsuccessful candidates got a letter saying that "having assessed your qualifications, the job has been offered to another candidate". There was no semblance whatever of a test in the required language before these candidates were turned down. When this letter was queried further, we were told "Oh yes, there will now be a test and the successful three or four, who are short-listed, will have to undergo this test".

If one is applying for a job as an interpreter-translator, the first thing that should be done is to hold a written examination. I, in my innocence, protested to a member of the staff of Córas Tráchtála about this procedure and I was told "Who do you think you are to try to buck the Establishment?" As a public representative and a heavily taxed one—and some of my taxes will help to pay this body—I will try to buck the establishment any time I can.

Another point I should like to bring up about CTT is that they held a seminar recently for small industries to help them get organised for export. I should like the Minister to tell me where the people who organised that seminar in CTT got their list. I know of at least one manufacturer who would have been very glad to avail of that seminar but was not invited.

Lest it be thought that I am completely anti-Córas Tráchtála, I am not. I have got good service from members of the staff in getting an enterprise moving and I should like to pay tribute to their dedication and their work. I feel very strongly about the procedure that is being adopted in appointing people to CTT.

There are many appointments in this country where the candidates must have a good knowledge of our language. I wonder how a number of people employed in CTT were examined in their knowledge of Irish before being appointed. One day I rang up CTT and I thought the wires had got crossed and that I was on to a British Department.

I do not think it is wrong to bring in people from abroad but we should have a policy about our language and it should be adhered to. The Minister should look into the procedure of appointments to CTT and remedy it.

Professor Quinlan

We can welcome this Bill. Senator Farrell is to be congratulated on her outspokenness on the points she has raised, which are of great concern. We must see that appointments are filled properly and fairly.

This is one symptom of the difficulties we always have with statutory boards. It is high time that a committee of the Oireachtas was set up to deal with those. The only time we ever hear about them is when a Bill comes to us for another £10 million or £15 million. We simply withdraw it at that stage and we hear nothing for years afterwards. That is not good enough. It means that the Oireachtas is not being used to encourage any reasonable public dialogue with such companies. We should have a number of those boards. Córas Tráchtála should be concerned with spending.

The issue is important enough to ensure that we have a joint committee of both Houses of the Oireachtas that would meet two, three or four times a year so that we could get an up-to-date report on how things were going. We can, of course, get some information from the annual reports that are always well turned out, but it is no substitute for a committee where questions can be asked and where, in most cases, the board concerned will be able to give a satisfactory answer. The committee provides the ideal vehicle for getting to grips with such problems. The points raised by Senator Farrell are ideal committee points.

Obviously such committees would be manned by persons who had a direct interest. It would be possible to divide up the work of exercising this type of supervision of statutory bodies between the various members of the Oireachtas. We would feel we were making a contribution if we had that facility. Otherwise we will be accused of praying or, as Senator Farrell has said, almost told to mind our own business. As public representatives we have a duty to the taxpayer to take a much more positive interest in those bodies. I have no crib against Córas Tráchtála, which is doing an excellent job. However, there is a lack of co-ordination between our various State boards. The fact that they are not working together as a unit is not good. The tendency when setting up boards, which we have used very much in recent years, is to set them up with a certain job to do and if they can save some money by doing it in a particular way, even though that may interfere with another State board, according to their statute they are charged with doing it in the cheapest way possible. This type of overall co-ordination for the common good is something which is very difficult to achieve and with the multiplicity of boards, is something which has to be achieved. They are all there essentially to serve the community as a whole and to develop the resources of the community in the national interest.

I do not think we can say that a single Minister in charge of all those boards is really in a position to exercise that type of control and co-ordination in the national interest. Very often the conditions attached to the setting up of the board do not permit that. That is the dilemma of the statutory boards. It is the total effort of all the boards that has to be maximised, not the effort of one board. How we do that I do not know. A first-class Oireachtas committee would be a solution. Before such a committee there would be an opportunity for board A to say their task was made more difficult by a practice pursued by another board. The practice pursued by board B might be sound economics, might be saving money for them, but the cost to board. A might be such that there was a net loss. Such a system could not possibly go on if there was a committee in charge, because they would insist that the national good demanded that the job be done in this way by board A so as to ensure that the results produced by board A and board B were the best possible for the national economy.

In recent years we have heard a lot about the question of control of statutory bodies but nothing has been done about it. Now that we are moving into the Common Market this is one of the areas where we should get more involvement of the Oireachtas. The central position of Córas Tráchtála highlights this involvement.

I would appeal to the Minister to try and let us see something positive by way of State involvement in and control over statutory bodies. This is by no means a criticism of Córas Tráchtála. I am speaking on the general principle involved. What is in the Minister's speech is rather inadequate and misleading. While we want to see the best picture, it should be an accurate and factual picture. The figures quoted that total exports increased from £130 million in 1959 to £468 million in 1970 do not give an accurate measure of the expansion that has taken place, because we had a great devaluation between 1959 and 1970. The 1970 £ is worth less than half the 1959£. If we are going to deal in 1970 values, we start with £250 or £260 million. The actual gross volume expansion that has occurred would be a much more accurate measure to use.

There is another factor in weighing this. It is stated that the increased exports of industrial goods went up from 32 per cent to 53 per cent. That means that the imports to produce these increased exports have increased very considerably. I would say there was a very high import content in raw materials of the finished products exported. I would like to know can the Minister give us the net figure. In 1959, what was the net value of the exports of £130 million, that is, gross less the imports of raw materials? Could he also give us the net value of the exports sent out in 1970 in terms of 1959 values? In other words, what was the true percentage increase achieved in the decade between 1959 and 1970? If we start giving figures on something like this which is purporting to show an expansion, they should be the best figures that can be given and should convey the real position. The real position was quite good in that decade. The expansion is probably of the order of 7 per cent to 8 per cent per annum in real terms. That would be satisfactory, but I would like to have those figures.

Finally I would appeal for a greater involvement of Córas Tráchtála with the universities in the country. I would like to see two-way traffic there. It should be quite commonplace for Córas Tráchtála to ask university personnel to go on some of their terms, may be for six months or a year or so, on temporary duty. While that would bring additional expertise in some facets of marketing or exporting to Córas Tráchtála, it would also provide a very valuable opportunity for university staffs to see the other side of the picture, the world for which they are trained as graduates. Their university training would considerably benefit from that close contact with the real problems. Likewise, Córas Tráchtála would benefit very much by being able to get such expertise when and where they want it.

I should also like to know about this Amendment Act, 1969, which went through here and for which we had high hopes, that is, in relation to exporting professional services, architects and engineers. Could the Minister give us any idea as to how this has developed over those two years? Is there any report on it where we could gain guidance on something that is very well worth while developing? While the Bill was going through the House, many valuable contributions were made as to how the range of services involved might be expanded. Did the Minister draw the attention of the board to those many contributions that were made, especially the Seanad contributions, on the way in which this service could be widened and expanded? If he did, has he got any report from Córas Tráchtála as to whether they implemented some of these suggestions or not?

I commend the Bill. The increase to £15 million is, if anything, inadequate at this time of rapid expansion, but we are not tied to limits and it is really providing an additional £6 million. The Minister or some other Minister will be back to us again for an increase in this amount when we reach the limit and, from my point of view, the sooner the Minister comes back saying they have reached the limit the better. That will be a sure indicator of industrial progress.

Ruairí Brugha

Speaking from the point of view of practical business as experienced by one who has to engage in competition whether he likes it or not, improved percentage figures are ever satisfactory to a businessman because they could always have been better. But the information given here by the Minister, indicating an increase in industrial goods exports from 32 per cent to 53 per cent between 1959 and 1970, is good news. However, as I have said, from the point of view of anybody who has to engage in competitive business it does not matter what your achievement is at the end of the year, it could always have been better. This is the approach that I would like to see every single industrial unit in this country adopt. Many of them do of course adopt it, but some do not.

While the Senators opposite were speaking my mind was going back about 14 years to a seminar of the NAIDA which I attended and at which two foreign trade attachés spoke, giving fairly blunt criticisms of ourselves and their experiences here. This would be in the period from the forties to the end of the fifties. They criticised our efforts to break into the export markets. The Dutch attaché said that some years earlier this country had signed a trade agreement with Holland and added: "We were expecting on the following Monday at least one plane load of Irish travellers to arrive at The Hague. Six months later nobody had arrived."

The Swiss trade attaché, when speaking of a period now 15 years ago, regarding the experience of his own country and what he had seen here, said he had spent some part of his holidays in West Cork. The area reminded him of an area in Switzerland which he had visited as a young boy about 40 years earlier. He said there was no difference from the point of view of population shrinkage and emigration. In fact, there was an area outside New York which was named after this place in Switzerland, but he was back there in 1956 and there was so much industry and such a growth in population that there was no room for any further expansion. This was his way of describing what could happen in this country if we wanted it to happen. If the business element, the management element and the worker element wanted to get the results, those results could be got. From my point of view, it is encouraging to learn from the Minister that 95 per cent of major exporters are using the services of Córas Tráchtála. I wonder how many of the smaller units here are not using the services of Córas Tráchtála. I also wonder what standard in relation to delivering on time our industrial units are maintaining on foreign markets. I have some information on some units here, which I will not specify, in relation to delivery times which are not satisfactory. I wonder how far does Córas Tráchtála go in research abroad, to ensure that Irish firms have efficiently fulfilled their orders on time. This is the most important time in our history from an industrial point of view. We have a breathing space until the the year after next. I would question the Minister as to how many Irish manufacturing representatives are already in the present member countries and prospective member countries of the European Economic Community before these markets open up to us, as I understand European representatives are in Britain and here.

I do not think — and here I am not being specific because I have not got the information — that it will be at all good enough for Irish industry to wait until we become members of the European Economic Community and until the tariff barrier has been dropped to go in and start looking for business. It has got to be done now, or, as the Americans would say, "yesterday". I should like to say personally to Senator Alexis FitzGerald that I certainly welcome many of his contributions on drafting. Another point which I should like to stress to the Minister in regard to the relationship between Córas Tráchtála and industrial exporters is the importance of having representatives who have a knowledge of at least two European languages. My experience of business people in Europe is that they are far too down to earth and practical to be taken in by either our good looks or our blue eyes. To them an Irishman who can only speak English is not as likely to get as far at all as an Irishman who can speak German or French fluently.

I believe that we need to make here a total all-out effort, an effort of community consciousness in relation to exports. We should have in all industries a "sell Irish" ambition as a first aim to ensure the continuance of employment here, the survival of employment here and the expansion of our economy. I think these are the most essential things to us in the coming 12 months and I would urge the Minister to put this across as strongly as he can at every business meeting at which he speaks and through Córas Tráchtála. I welcome the increase proposed in this Bill which is very necessary. I hope it is adequate, and I fully support the Minister in introducing the Bill.

Cáit Uí Eachthéirn

I should like to ask a few questions. I see here that Córas Tráchtála have provided specialist consultancy services in design. I want to know if these are provided to small industries, because I believe that it is only on quality industries that we can survive in the future. I see that they have opened new offices in Britain, North America, Australia and Germany. Senator Brugha has spoken about the Continent; I should like to know about Australia. I think it would be much better if an Irish-Australian were appointed on missions such as Australia, because when I was there there was a big Irish house opening. I happened to be there at a world conference and I did not even know that this opening was taking place. I also see that Córas Tráchtála have pioneered in the field of industrial design and development. None of us would have even opened our eyes, only for the Swedish report. I want to congratulate the Kilkenny Design Workshop on what has been done as a result of that report. We commissioned the Swedes to investigate our designs in this country, but our designs up to then had been atrocious. Now that we have got the help and the advice of the Swedish design people and our own Kilkenny Design, I hope we shall go on and develop our own design based on our own traditions and our own dúchas.

Minister for Industry and Commerce (Mr. Lalor)

With a Bill of this nature, one normally expects that it will be welcomed. I think in general that there was a wholehearted welcome for this provision of the additional £6 million for Córas Tráchtála. On the whole, the House subscribed to the view that Córas Tráchtála was doing an extremely efficient job of work, despite the fact that Senator Quinlan was not as impressed as he should have been at the growth in the value of exports from 1959 to 1970.

Professor Quinlan

No. I wanted to get an exact measure of it. I did not say I was not impressed.

Mr. Lalor

Senator Alexis FitzGerald has indicated that it was quite an impressive leap from £130 million in 1959 to £468 million and Senator Quinlan drew attention to the fact that the buying capacity of £468 million in 1971 would not be the equivalent of the buying capacity of £468 million in 1959. I think that is a fair interpretation of what the Senator said.

On the other hand, as regards the suggestion that the Minister had made no effort to quantify it, there was no question of my being responsible for misleading the House in relation to the volume of exports. This is the impression that the Senator gave to me, that I was not factual enough and that the jump in exports here was——

Professor Quinlan

There is a difference between "factual" and "misleading". I did not say "misleading". I was looking for more facts.

Mr. Lalor

I think the record will show whether I was right or wrong. The fact that increased exports of industrial goods rose from 32 per cent of the total volume exported to 53 per cent of the total is an indication of the progress that has been made by four industrial exporting firms, with the assistance of Córas Tráchtála. It would not be a practical operation to endeavour to convert those two figures into straightforward net values. This is the reason why the figures for industrial goods exports were projected in the form of a percentage of total exports.

I think that Senator Alexis FitzGerald and other Senators who complimented Córas Tráchtála on their achievements, and on their personnel and their dedication to the work on hands were justified in their commendation. Since I was appointed Minister for Industry and Commerce, I feel that Córas Tráchtála have been doing an extremely good job of work. This view is, I think, shared by all Members of the House, despite the fact that there may be criticisms, as were mentioned this evening, about what I would term minor aspects of the company. Let me deal with the criticism outlined by Senator Farrell, in this regard. I wish to direct these comments both to Senator Mrs. Farrell and Senator Quinlan. It is not the most admirable thing to suggest to the responsible Minister in control of any of our semi-State bodies that he should interfere unduly in their day-to-day operations. A Minister who has within his jurisdiction a semi-State body is too often criticised in the wrong for interfering with the day-to-day work. The most common criticism is in the allocation of positions within the organisation.

Mr. O'Higgins

You would remove all that if you had an Oireachtas Committee.

Mr. Lalor

This is the point. I was coming around to the suggestion made by Senator Quinlan that the surveillance of a semi-State body be handed over to an Oireachtas Committee. You would then have the situation that before any of the personnel within the semi-State body could do anything he would have to check whether the Oireachtas subcommittee were happy about the way he was approaching the particular job. I do not agree with having a subcommittee of the Oireachtas established to supervise the day-to-day running of a company.

Mr. O'Higgins

Not the day-to-day running.

Mr. Lalor

One of the matters that has been mentioned, which is engaging the attention of the Minister for Finance at the present time, is the question of a Committee of the House to look into the overall accounts of semi-State bodies. This would not mean that a subcommittee of the House would dictate to the personnel or board of any semi-State body as to their form of selection of personnel.

Professor Quinlan

Nobody has suggested that.

Mr. Lalor

This is the context in which the argument was made this evening. In supporting Senator Farrell in the point she was making Senator Quinlan went on to suggest that this matter could be dealt with if it were accepted that a Select Committee of the House would be appointed to supervise a semi-State body.

Professor Quinlan

On the same lines as the similar committees in Holland operate. I am sure they have it reasonably well arranged

Mr. Lalor

The cows in Kerry always have long horns.

Professor Quinlan

It is functioning well.

Mr. Lalor

I will take the Senator's word. From the experience I have of CTT I feel that it is functioning well and doing an extremely good job. The excellence of the personnel operating at home and abroad on behalf of CTT is an indication that the board and its senior executives have been doing an extremely good job down through the years. I am conscious of the problem referred to by Senator Farrell. She drew my attention to section 20 of the 1959 Act, which says the board shall submit to the Minister such information regarding the performance of its functions as he may from time to time require. She suggested that under that section the Minister should investigate the mis-appointment of personnel.

She outlined to the House a particular complaint she had. I wish to say emphatically that I do not condone the action of any senior operative within CTT in replying to a Member of this House in the manner in which Senator Farrell claims her protest was dealt with. On the other hand, I would not ask CTT, under section 20 of the Act, to give me an account of their stewardship with regard to the appointment, in whatever manner they feel is appropriate, of, say, an interpreter they might wish to use in their organisation. My understanding of the situation was that there were two distinct types of interview and that a certain number of applicants were called in a second time, whereas the people who were interviewed ——

Mrs. Farrell

In English.

Mr. Lalor

Let me be quite frank about it. A person may have extremely good qualifications, such as very fluent German or French, but may not have the particular type of personality that the organisation require. If, in relation to following through on the long-term with a view to bringing across some experts from perhaps Germany to interview a select few, I see nothing wrong with the CTT operating a system whereby they interview 40 or 50 applications in English under IQ headings, personality and so on in order to narrow it down to five or six and to subject them to a final examination. From my experience, especially of CTT personnel operating in their offices in Europe, the US and the UK, I have nothing but the height of admiration for the quality of the personnel operating in those offices. From my point of view it is a very satisfactory indication of efficient selectivity. I would not feel obliged, therefore, to ask the board of CTT to change their system of recruitment on the grounds that the end product they are getting is not up to required standards. This has not been my experience.

Some people contributing to this debate made reference to the fact that in this Bill I am seeking to raise the level of money that can be advanced to CTT by only £6 million, from £9 million to £15 million. It was mentioned that the figure was inadequate, certainly in the long-term.

Senator Quinlan drew attention to the fact that we only get opportunities of dealing with semi-State organisations when the responsible Minister comes before the Seanad to seek sanction for the advancing of further money for them. I am seeking an increase from £9 million to £15 million on this occasion although I am not anticipating that this amount of money will be sufficient to enable Córas Tráchtála to undertake the work they have on hands for a period longer than approximately two years. The object of confining the increase to that amount is to enable both Houses of the Oireachtas to discuss the progress of this organisation in two or three years time. This has been an established pattern in relation to this type of amending legislation. From my point of view it would be just as easy to come to this House and seek, and I am sure obtain, sanction to raise the ceiling from £9 million to £25 million; but in that event the House would not have the opportunity it now has of discussing the progress, or lack of progress as the case may be, of Córas Tráchtála over the next five or six years. This is the reason why we are aiming at a ceiling of an extra £6 million under this Bill.

A Senator mentioned that he hoped the Minister would draw the attention of CTT to the contributions made in the Dáil and Seanad in relation to their work. It is not normally necessary for the Minister to do so because all semi-State bodies — and that would include CTT — are very watchful of what is being said regarding their progress or lack of progress in either of the Houses of the Oireachtas. As far as CTT is concerned, the contributions and criticisms of Members of both Houses are carefully noted with a view to obviating the necessity of having criticisms of that nature in the future. If it becomes necessary for me to draw their attention to Senators' contributions and criticisms I will certainly do so.

Senator Farrell queried the manner in which seminars are organised. I would be anxious to have further information from the Senator in regard to the specific seminar she has in mind — she said that a number of small producers were not aware of the seminar — with a view to taking the matter up with CTT. I understand that they are always anxious to try and attract the greatest number of people possible to attend seminars where they feel that such a seminar can be of benefit, especially to small industries, in developing their export potential. If there is disappointment at all, that disappointment is usually on CTT's side because of an insufficiency of favourable reaction or favourable attendance following their organisation of a seminar.

Reference was made in the Dáil to the necessity for CTT to organise language courses. In fact, Senator Brugha spoke about the necessity for the personnel of CTT to have a sufficient knowledge of continental languages to be able to deal with problems on the Continent.

Ruairí Brugha

Industries on the Continent.

Mr. Lalor

Yes, it was industries. CTT have established courses, especially in German, and the response from industry has not been satisfactory at all. Admittedly, those courses were established sometime ago and I would hope that now, with our imminent entry into the EEC, potential exporting industry will be more aware of the need for equipping themselves for this development. This is a matter that is engaging the attention of CTT at present.

Both Senator Farrell and Senator Quinlan spoke about the lack of co-ordination between the various bodies such as CTT, IDA, Bord Fáilte and the Department of Foreign Affairs. It is very easy to say that there is a lack of co-ordination. There was also a reference to the fact that our embassies should be put to greater use. Senator Farrell talked about the Ireland House idea. If you take a case such as Germany, where we have an embassy in Bonn but the CTT office is in Duesseldorf, you can see the unsuitability of an embassy premises from the point of view of endeavouring to promote trade. It is often necessary to have embassies in a particular locality in a city, which might be a non-trading sector of the city, but such a locality would be the wrong place to have an export promotion centre.

Mrs. Farrell

Then why put the embassy there? Why not put it in the centre of a city where it would be a real advantage?

Mr. Lalor

That would be a matter for the Minister for Foreign Affairs. If we are observant we will note that no foreign country has an embassy in Henry Street or Grafton Street. For instance, Washington is the capital city of the United States and it would not work out if we were to establish an embassy in Fifth Avenue, New York, to aid our industries. On the other hand, we have Ireland House in the business centre of New York where you have a number of organisations under the one roof. This is not feasible in a number of other areas.

On the other hand, there is at present very close liaison between the personnel in the Department of Foreign Affairs, the personnel in CTT and the IDA. The latter two bodies, which are within the ambit of my Department, work in very close harmony. If they were all collectively under the one umbrella, I do not think that there could be any greater co-ordination. My experience of Irishmen operating abroad on behalf of CTT, the IDA, An Bórd Fáilte, or on behalf of the State, has been that they all look upon themselves as ambassadors of our country. It is quite possible for somebody travelling to cities abroad where they operate to experience disappointment under some minor headings. Overall, the operatives from all those semi-State organisations are not, first, nine to five people and, secondly, are not people who just reserve themselves to their specific organisation and are not willing to lend a hand to the sister national organisation in the same city. I do not think that we experience this lack of co-ordination that is so freely mentioned. I am not in a position to deal specifically with the question of offering temporary employment to university students by CTT as a means of helping CTT on the one hand, and as a means of broadening the mind of the student on the other. However, it is a particular factor that I shall mention to CTT.

Senator Quinlan asked what progress had been made in relation to the special measure that was taken two years ago regarding engineers and architects. It has taken quite a time to make progress under this heading. Shortly after the enactment of the Export Promotion Act, 1969, Córas Tráchtála organised a symposium in conjunction with the Association of Consulting Engineers of Ireland on the export of engineering services. CTT have now reported that a consortium of 16 major consulting engineering firms has recently been formed to market engineering services abroad. In addition, it is expected that this consortium will appoint a chief executive early in the New Year. In the meantime a number of contracts have been obtained by individual firms. It is only now that the provisions of the 1969 Act are coming to fruition in this regard.

Senator Brugha asked how many of our exporters are already established in EEC member countries. There is no possibility of quantifying this number at the present stage. CTT have been exhorting our exporters to see the potential for development in that field. They are encouraging them to get on the job and will provide all of the expertise and experience that they have collected over a period in order to assist them. Arrangements have been made for the opening of an office in Brussels and long-term arrangements have been made for opening an office in Milan, in order to provide the maximum assistance to the exporter who is anxious to develop the European market.

Senator Uí Eachthéirn asked about the specialist services for industrial design. CTT are, by advice, by assistance in design consultancy within their own organisation, and by way of the provision of grants for the two industrialists for the engaging of consultants, in a position to help existing industry. If the Senator knows of any small industrialist who can be assisted in this way, Córas Tráchtála are only too anxious to help and have services made available to them. Under the craft design heading the Kilkenny Design Workshop is doing excellent work and has been of assistance to a big number of industrialists.

I wish to refer again to Senator Brugha's final word on selling Irish. On this Second Reading we have been talking about the activities of Córas Tráchtála, the Irish Export Board, in endeavouring to sell Irish produce on the foreign markets. The Senator suggested to me that I should use every opportunity I could to get across the message about selling and buying Irish. I have used every possible opportunity and every public occasion to spell out to the Irish people the necessity for making the fullest use of quality Irish goods for export.

It may be late in the day to start falling in with the Irish Housewives Association in their movements during the past few weeks but it is a rather appropriate week for me to compliment them on their approach to the Buy Quality Irish campaign. I should like to use it——

Mr. O'Higgins

The Minister is limiting the compliment to this week.

Mr. Lalor

I am trying to extend it.

Mr. O'Higgins

Is the Minister not extending it to the earlier weeks?

Mr. Lalor

They share with me an overall anxiety and desire to keep down prices. I want to compliment them on their specific effort to induce all of their fellow-housewives to buy quality Irish. I exhort them not to let the effort die at the end of this week, but to try to turn it into a Quality Irish campaign the whole year round. Nobody can influence the distributor as much as the housewife who insists, when she goes into a store, on being supplied with Irish articles. I am afraid that we have not been sufficiently insistent in this regard. I exhort the nation, through this debate, to be more conscious of the necessity of giving every possible support to Irish industry by insisting on Irish quality produce, of which we exported £468 million worth last year.

Agreed to take remaining Stages today.

Bill put through Committee, reported without amendment, received for final consideration and passed.

The Seanad adjourned at 9.30 p.m.sine die.

Seanad Éireann debate -
Thursday, 9 Dec 1971