Skip to main content
Normal View

Seanad Éireann debate -
Thursday, 25 Jan 1973

Vol. 74 No. 5

Appropriation Act, 1972: Motion (Resumed).

Debate resumed on the following motion:
That Seanad Éireann notes the supply services and purposes to which sums have been appropriated in the Appropriation Act, 1972.
—(An Seanadóir Tomás Ó Maoláin).

Last week I spoke on the results of the 1972 agricultural science paper in the leaving certificate examination and pointed out to the Seanad the lack of interest shown by both boys and girls in that paper. Out of 11,460 boys and 12,703 girls who sat for the examination, only 605 boys and eight girls took agricultural science as a subject. Of this number 225 boys and six girls failed, having received 40 per cent marks or under.

We have always prided ourselves as being agriculturally-minded and our Ministers and Senators are continually stressing the importance of agriculture in our economy. Since our entry to the EEC it is even more important, and we must educate our people to get full benefit from the land.

The situation with regard to the agricultural economics paper was worse. The numbers who sat for this paper were 59 boys and two girls, that is, 61 pupils out of 24,000 took agricultural economics as a subject in the leaving certificate examination. Agriculture is the foundation of the economy and we depend on it for our survival.

Only 12 boys and two girls sat for the higher paper in agricultural economics. Five boys and one girl received 55 per cent or more in this subject and seven boys and one girl received 40 per cent to 55 per cent. Forty-seven boys sat for the lower paper but no girl took the paper. Only six boys received 55 per cent or more marks in that paper, 23 got mark D and 18 failed.

Have we sufficient qualified teachers? Have we the facilities available? Do we take enough interest in our pupils? Do we point out that they should take agriculture as a subject? Boys and girls from the cities may not be qualified to take this subject but there are sufficient numbers in the rural areas who should take an interest in agriculture. The fault may lie with the Department of Education. The Department of Education have not taken enough interest in agricultural subjects.

Senators may have read about our agricultural colleges in the papers recently. Many years ago I attended an agricultural college for 12 months and I know what happened in agricultural colleges then. As the chairman of the Farm Apprenticeship Board said, we spent 90 per cent of our time doing manual work such as picking potatoes and so on and 10 per cent of our time in the classroom. Even though that was all I did, I learned a lot while attending the college but I was surprised at the short time we spent in the classroom. We expected that we would learn more from the teachers than from our work in the fields but we spent very little time in the classroom. This is still happening and I appeal to the Ministers for Education and Agriculture and Fisheries to look into this aspect of our educational system.

I should like to refer to the agricultural economics paper. A high percentage of the land in Ireland is owned by women; a high percentage of land in the future will be owned and managed by women but despite this, there are few educational facilities in agriculture available for girls. I think girls are taught domestic science in Ramsgrange college, but generally education in agriculture should not be confined to domestic science. We should be more concerned with the education of our women and we should see that they get the opportunity of knowing what is happening and what will happen in the future so that they will be prepared.

If we educate the parents we will be educating their children; we will be giving them a chance to develop their lands in the proper way so that they will get the full benefit not only for themselves but for the country also. We are not taking this seriously enough. I appeal to all the farming organisations to keep talking about this aspect of education so that something will be done about it quickly.

I should like to refer to a speech made by the Minister for Agriculture and Fisheries on the 1st January, 1972. As quoted in the Dairy News of 5th January, the Minister stated that the farmers who will gain most from EEC entry will be those who produce at the lowest cost the quantity and quality required by the EEC markets. Obviously the reward will go to those who know most about their business. The Minister said that for this reason there should be a greatly increased interest in agricultural education, training and advice by all farmers and particularly by young farmers. I agree with the Minister in his comments. The Minister should realise what agriculture means to this country and should insist on the Government doing something about the education of the young people who may be interested in agriculture.

I should like to refer to the ACC report for 1971-72. First, I wish to congratulate the chairman, members of the corporation and the public for taking an interest in the ACC. The most important developments were loans for building purposes which amounted to £3.8 million; loans for livestock purchases at £6.1 million and loans for land improvement and fertiliser at £5.2 million. This proves that the farmers rely on the ACC for help and have confidence in the ACC. If the government and the farmers invest in agriculture it will be worthwhile. It will increase our stocking rate, improve buildings and increase the productivity of the land. I am glad that the ACC and the farmers are working together to improve the land.

I am worried about the amount of money being given for the purchase of land. Recently the ACC imposed a limit of £20,000 but I have heard that large sums of money have been given to speculators and companies to buy land in competition with farmers. I hope this is not true. The ACC should carry out a careful investigation of each application. The land should be for the farmers and people of Ireland, not for the companies of Ireland, and I shall refer to this later.

I should like to refer to the interest taken by the ACC in regard to the food processing industry. I am involved in this industry and I know what it means to this country. I hope the ACC will give the money required by the processing industry for development. That industry is at the developing stage in regard to the projected volume of milk to be produced during the next few years. The ACC are right in interesting themselves in the food processing industry and I wish to compliment them on that. I hope that industry will show the maximum interest by accepting whatever help may be forthcoming from the ACC. I should like to congratulate the public who have increased considerably their investments in the ACC. It is a good sign and I hope the public, realising the valuable work being done by the ACC, will invest to a greater extent in the future. The more money invested in the ACC the more will be available to be injected into the agricultural industry.

For the betterment of the economy and especially of agriculture, an investigation into the processing industry should be undertaken at local level. We hear and read a lot about the development of the milk processing industry but I do not believe everything that is said and written about it. The development of this industry must be left to our farmers and no political pressure, from whatever side, should be allowed to interfere with its development. Our farmers have not made mistakes up to the present and will not do so in the future and even if they do they are the people who will have to pay for them.

We have farming organisations such as the IFA and the ICMSA who have educated their members in what is happening at present and what will happen in the future. They have carried out surveys at local level and have given advice to their members. We know that both those organisations do not agree on many points but the Minister for Agriculture and Fisheries should endeavour to get them together to discuss their differences. I know he has met both of them from time to time and he deserves our congratulations for that. He has done a better job of work in that regard than his predecessors but he should not sit back and wait for an approach to be made by the organisations.

From time to time the Minister should invite them to come to him and discuss their problems. He is the only person who can get them together for negotiation. I know this is difficult but I would appeal to both bodies to unite so that they can work together with the Minister in promoting the industry and in acting as a consultative body with the trade organisations for the betterment of the industry as a whole. This has already been done in England and it has proved very successful.

I would again appeal to those two organisations to unite, work with the Minister, seek all the advice available to them and, perhaps, from time to time advise the Minister and his Department on the best course to take. If they all work together in harmony it will benefit the country considerably.

I should like to refer to the Land Commission. The member countries of the EEC now have complete freedom to purchase land here. I know there are regulations governing it but, nevertheless, the Land Commission will have to be more alert in future. They should realise that the arable land of Ireland should be kept for Irish people and try to avoid a repetition here of what happened in England where insurance and other companies have bought up much of the arable land. In one case a farm of 1,300 acres was purchased by an insurance company for £720 per statute acre. In another case a company purchased 970 acres of arable land for £970 per acre.

Was that in England?

Yes, in England. The Land Commission and the Government should not allow the same thing to happen here. I do not know the EEC regulations with regard to such a situation but we must beware that what is happening at present in England does not happen here. The Land Commission should purchase arable land put up for sale because, with an average yearly inflation of 9 per cent and the letting of land at £30 to £40 per acre, it is an attractive investment for any insurance company. For that reason it is hard to blame those companies. It is a most serious situation and I believe any arable land should be purchased by the Land Commission if the local farmers cannot purchase it themselves.

I should also like the Land Commission to divide such land as fairly as possible among the local farmers. I would suggest that only farmers who, by getting extra land from the Land Commission, can make their holdings viable should be eligible. Any farmer who would become eligible for a pension or a gratuity, out of EEC funds, by leasing or selling his land should not be eligible for additional land from the Land Commission.

There may be people over 55 years of age living on farms of about 30 or 40 acres. By getting an additional 30 or 40 acres they could possibly make such farms viable. However, they must look further than that. Perhaps leasing the land from one farmer and giving it to somebody else would be preferable and the Land Commission must consider this. Throughout the country there are many farmers using political influence to get land. Irrespective of age or whether or not that land would help to make a holding viable, everybody would like to own some parcel of land: if we have ten acres, we like to get ten more and I believe the Land Commission would consider it in this light.

I also appeal to the Land Commission to look at another problem. Where alternative employment is not available the situation changes and where that happens land should be made available to the people who cannot get employment. Divided land in a particular area could not go to everybody in that area but viable farms of about 50, 60 or 70 acres should be given to people within that area, so that they could rear their families in a happy environment.

I should also like to refer to the long-term leasing of land, say, for a ten or 15-year term. I suggest that the Land Commission consider this because farmers getting land may not be able to pay for it, or pay the price the Land Commission charge for the land. By leasing it, the Land Commission would still be the owners of that land and they would be able to rent it at a minimum charge. After a term of ten to 15 years, the farmer paying low rent should be able to develop that farm and perhaps be able to purchase that farm after the term. I think this 11 months leasing is a bad thing. The Land Commission carried out a good deal of 11-month leasing of farms in the country and I think they should drop it and substitute the ten or 15-year leasing term. It would show the capabilities of a farmer, if he were able to purchase that land after the term of ten or 15 years and the real viability of that farm. That would require qualities any farmer should have and if he has them, it is all to the good of the country.

I spoke about companies and the danger of companies purchasing land and then letting that land to farmers. I should like to quote from the Report of the Irish Land Commission for the year 1st April, 1970, to 31st March, 1971. The first paragraph of the preface reads as follows:

The Land Commission, having been established in the first instance as (1) a rent-fixing body, was by law developed into (2) a tenant-purchase agency for the elimination of landlordism and the conversion of tenants into proprietors; it was ultimately expanded into (3) a great purchaser and distributor of land, mainly for the relief of rural congestion...

I should like to refer to (2). If companies are permitted to purchase large tracts of land, such as happened in England, then we are back to landlordism at its worst. We will have landlords, faceless people whose tenants are the farmers leasing the land and they will have nobody to whom they can appeal. We should not allow this to happen in Ireland.

I should also like to refer to the dispute that is going on between the dead meat trade and the livestock exporters. I appeal to the organisations and to the Minister to get together to try to settle the dispute. It has been continuing for a long time and nobody will gain anything in the long run. There are openings for both the dead meat exporters and the livestock exporters, and the two associations should get together to discuss the advantages of both of them working together, instead of pulling apart. I know that at the moment the Livestock Exporters Association are buying cattle at a higher price than the factories can pay. I also realise that the farmers must get top prices for cattle and competition allows that. Throughout the years in the cattle trade there have been cycles when the dead meat trade could pay more per cwt. for cattle than the livestock exporters and vice versa. I see a great danger in this. I am living in the heart of the cattle country in County Tipperary where there are thousands of people depending for their livelihood on the meat trade. In my area alone I estimate that there are at least 5,000 people depending on the dead meat trade. Because of this I have had numerous people discussing the problem with me. I know that a £1 milion loan was granted to the dead meat trade last year and I am wondering if this will be now written off. I know that the granting of subsidies is not permissible within the EEC but some form of loan, even if it has to be written off again, would be a good investment.

I do not know if the dead meat factory is doing a complete job. From time to time I have heard that they were selling the meat in sides. They are not getting the maximum return if that is the way they conduct their business. Meat should be sold prepacked on the world market. If we used this method we would employ more people and obtain the maximum benefits available.

In Cahir we have 6,000-7,000 people depending on the meat trade but that is only one area. Other areas are likewise affected. I appeal to the Minister for Finance as well as to the Minister for Agriculture and Fisheries and the organisations concerned to get together to try to formulate a scheme which would be beneficial to all. They should take into account the number of people made redundant and on notice of dismissal and the cost they represent to the economy, not only in the area of social welfare but in health also. It must be a very worrying time for those people who have worked all their lives in the meat factories and are now unemployed, especially when they hear the propaganda that there is no future for the dead meat trade. If all these factors are taken into consideration by the interested parties, they should be able to work out something beneficial.

Before concluding I should like to refer to the publication of the census figures for 1961-1971, as they affect my own constituency in South Tipperary. Although the population increased by 259, the number employed decreased by 592. This decrease occurred before the closure of the Ballingarry mines and the redundancy of the workers in the meat factories and in two weeks' time we shall have the closure of the Ardfinnan woolen mills, where another 100 people are employed. I appeal to the Minister for Industry and Commerce to reconsider the position of the Ardfinnan woollen mills, bearing in mind that there are 100 people employed there and 500 people dependent on it in the village. If the mill closes the village is dead. There is no surer way to kill the village than by closing the mill. The average age of the work force in the mill is 45 years of age. There is no alternative employment in Ardfinnan and the mill should be kept open until one is provided. If it is necessary to close the mill then, I shall not object.

This mill, family-owned, has been in Ardfinnan for centuries. When the owners grew old the interest in the mill waned and the mill deteriorated. With new management, which was employed recently, a chance should be given to see if it is viable or not. There is no use in retraining people who have worked all their lives in the mill. This probably applies to 50 out of the 100 employed. I know of no other industry in which they could work. Therefore, I again appeal to the Minister to reconsider his decision. It is now a designated area and there may be a chance in the future of providing another industry. Only then would be Minister be entitled to change from the woollen industry.

In connection also with the 1961-71 census figures, the number of private dwellings rose from 16,755 to 17,001. It is only a slight increase but it is welcome. However, 23 per cent of the dwellings had no piped water and 25 per cent had no toilets. This is 1973 and the position may have changed since then. People are very anxious to develop rural water schemes and so on. Even so, it means that one in four private-owned houses in South Tipperary in 1971 had no sanitary facilities or electricity.

The Government have fallen down on this matter and some type of subvention should be made to ensure that all country houses have electricity and sanitary facilities. I would imagine my own home not being so pleasant if it did not have those facilities. Large families especially must suffer great inconvenience in not having them. Neither do they have radio or television. This is a social need and the Minister and his Department should investigate the problem. I am sure that in areas in the West of Ireland it is even worse than in South Tipperary.

We are now members of the European Community and we must advance. We must invest money because it is the poor of Ireland who are living in unserviced dwellings. In times of trouble it was always the poor, not the rich, who were there to help out. The rich man left the country and went to the United States. The poor man helped to defend our State. We should now realise that we are not giving him all we could. Proper toilet facilities, water and electricity are essential for every dwelling and I would appeal to the Minister to ensure that such facilities are available. There are complications but they can be overcome. If it will cost more money let us all put our hands in our pockets and pay. The time has come when all citizens should be treated as equals.

Speaking on the subject of water, I would refer again to Ardfinnan. Deputations from Ardfinnan and Cahir have met the Minister for Finance and the Minister for Local Government to request a loan for the Ardfinnan regional water supply scheme. The Minister should have a record of such meetings on his files. Following these meetings, the deputations returned happy, having been promised loans. A loan of £100,000 was promised. The present Minister for Local Government promised that loan about 12 months ago. I was present when a deputation met the previous Minister for Local Government and, in my presence, he also promised a loan of £100,000 for the development of the Ardfinnan regional water supply scheme. The loan has not yet been made. This regional water supply scheme cannot be developed until this loan of £100,000 is made available. It is essential that all the people living in that region should have piped water and proper toilet facilities. I would urge the Minister to look again at the Ardfinnan regional water supply scheme and honour the promise made by him.

My contribution to this Bill will be brief. My comments will be a repetition to those made by other Senators. Like Senator Butler, I wish to deal with the question of agriculture and the implications involved by our entry into the EEC. There is a wonderful future for agriculture as a result of our entry into the EEC. The fruits of entry can be seen as far as our dairy and beef industries are concerned. Dairy farmers did not expect that the increase in milk prices would be so high or come so quickly. It is to be regretted that we are not in a position at the moment to export more cattle. Last year our export carcase meat trade dropped by 10 per cent and exports of live cattle dropped by five per cent. We know the reason for the drop in live cattle. Farmers are trying to build up their herds and they have kept back calves for this purpose. That difficulty should be overcome in the course of the next few years.

The drop in the meat carcase trade came about due to a scarcity of cattle. In other years farmers disposed of cows which were not in calf and those which were not good milkers. They usually sold them in the month of August. Last year any cow in calf was kept on the farm because the calf was worth at least £50. This is why the meat industry suffered a lean period last year. I come from the same county as Senator Butler and it is one which depends almost entirely on the agricultural industry. Our industries depend on the raw materials produced here. We, in Tipperary, are worried because we can foresee that a number of our industries could be in difficulties in the next year or so. In the past year we have also had more than our share of redundancies. The Ballingarry collieries were closed, followed by the threatened closure of the Ardfinnan woollen mills.

Senator Butler spoke at length on the subject of the Ardfinnan woollen mills. Senators may have got the impression that the Government were responsible for this and, if they had waved a magic wand, Ardfinnan woollen mills would be working at full strength again. This is not correct. The EEC has been blamed by many people for the closing of those industries. Our entry to the EEC had nothing whatsoever to do with the closing of Ballingarry collieries or Ardfinnan woollen mills. Both industries have been in difficulties for a number of years. The people of Ardfinnan blame the Atkins Report for the closure of their mill. I believe that, were it not for the Atkins Report, Ardfinnan and other mills would have closed a year ago.

I share Senator Butler's sympathy for the people of Ardfinnan. I sincerely hope that some way can be found to keep the Ardfinnan woollen mill in operation. Both Ardfinnan and Ballingarry have been made designated areas within the past few months. I am sure that in a very short time new industries will be established in both areas which will cater for those people who will be unemployed if the Ardfinnan woollen mill closes.

So far as the dairy industry is concerned, we have no need to worry. Production will increase but, because of the introduction of modern plant and machinery, and the closing of the smaller creameries, no extra employment will be created in the dairy industry. Tipperary is the third highest producing county; yet, we have only two milk processing industries, one in Carrick-on-Suir and one in Tipperary town and most of the milk has to be sent to other counties for processing. I am glad to learn that the Tipperary Co-op Creamery have decided to build a milk processing plant. It will cost over £1 million but it will absorb most of the milk produced in west Tipperary.

I agree with Senator Butler that the meat processing industry appears to be in serious difficulties. The shortage of cattle is likely to continue for a number of years. It would be more profitable to export dead meat and processing would mean more employment naturally. Until we have sufficient cattle for both the live and the dead meat market we must endeavour to keep the meat factories going because, if they close, it will not be possible to re-open them again in a few years as the highly-skilled workers will have left the area.

Loans or grants will have to be made available to the meat industry. My interest lies with the workers. As Senator Butler stated, there are almost 1,000 people involved in the meat industry in the Cahir area. In past years owners and proprietors of the meat industry made a packet at the expense of the farmer. I know as a dairy farmer that if you brought a cow to market on a day the market was over-crowded you got a poor price as the agents did not compete with each other. The next day there might be only a few cows and prices went sky-high. There must have been a big profit to be made in the meat industry over the years. We do not hear what happened the money made in the good years when the industry is closing down. I hold that industrialists have a duty to retain some of the profits for the lean years.

Last year we were looking for an increased sugar quota in the EEC for year under review because of the inclement weather early in the year. The yield is down by at least six tons per acre. This means a drop in the farmer's income of about £45. Another reason is the sudden rise in the price of cattle and dairy products not satisfied with the quota they got from Brussels as they maintained they could grow more beet. Last year was a record year for beet acreage and farmers were clamouring for beet contracts throughout the south and in Connacht. The reason for the sudden the beet industry. The farmers were change is the drop in the yield in the The farmers are now asking: "Why should I grow beet at the same price I obtained three years ago?" Some farmers have said they will never grow beet again as there are easier ways of making money. The beet growers' representatives have asked for an increase of £1 per ton. It is a modest request. The Sugar Company say it is not possible to give that increase, as it would leave the company in debt. The price we are getting for beet is almost as high as in any of the EEC countries, but in Europe, especially in Germany and France, there is a much greater yield, as much as 25 tons per acre.

Under EEC regulations the Government cannot subsidise the price of beet but it is, I maintain, the duty of the Government to find some means of subsidising the growing of sugar beet. The situation for the workers will be very serious in the four factories if the beet acreage drops. Thurles and Tuam would cease production. This would be serious for the employees in those factories.

The Sugar Company and Erin Foods had trouble with the farmers this year in relation to potato contracts. I have no sympathy with the farmers who signed contracts with the Sugar Company or Erin Foods and did not honour their contracts afterwards; they wanted the best of two worlds. Farmers will not grow potatoes because prices are not stabilised. They can get a good price one year and a very low price the next year. Farmers who grew the potatoes for Erin Foods were satisfied with the prices previously but, because the open market was better this year, they forgot about Erin Foods. The Sugar Company naturally will not give contracts to those who did not honour their contracts this year. I believe Erin Foods have been compelled to import potatoes to keep their factories going.

Land and agriculture are so closely connected they should be under the one Minister. Agricultural instructors should have a say in the division of land because they are on the spot and they know the best farmers in a particular area. A Land Commission inspector who visits a farmer for a few hours is not in a position to judge who is the best farmer. The agricultural instructors should be consulted by the Land Commission as to who are the best farmers and who are most entitled to land.

The delay in the division of land has always puzzled me. After a farm is purchased by the Land Commission it takes from five to seven years to have it divided amongst the small farmers in the area. During those years that land is let at a loss, as far as the Land Commission is concerned, although the local people think the Land Commission are making a profit from letting it. This land is not fertilised during those years with a result that, when it is finally divided, the land is poorer than it was when the Land Commission first took it over. I cannot understand why there should be more than one year's delay in the division of land.

As regards the price of land, Senator Butler mentioned that land in England costs £900 per acre. It is costing that in parts of this country at the moment. Because of the high price of land the Land Commission are not inclined to purchase land at the moment. They point out that, if they pay £800 per acre for land, that would mean having to charge the farmer who would get the land £70 rent per acre per year and they think that farmers will not pay that kind of money. I am confident that a farmer would pay £70 or £80 per acre. One farmer told me recently that he was paying £60 per acre for grazing land. Another man told me that he could sell one calf and that would pay for his acre of land for one year. The Land Commission should not be using the excuse that the people will not take the land from them. Any small farmer will be glad to get an additional ten acres to his holding and pay £70 or £80 per acre for it. I understand that the Land Commission need not charge the full price to the farmer and, if that is so, money should be provided to enable the Land Commission to give the land to small farmers at a lower price than they paid for it.

We hear a great deal of talk about speculators and foreigners buying land. We have nothing to worry about as far as that is concerned because land is dearer in Ireland than it is in Europe. In some parts of the country insurance companies and others are buying land. This should be stopped at all costs and only those directly connected with agriculture should be allowed to buy land. It is not fair to allow people who have made profits otherwise coming along and investing their money in land to ensure a sound investment for their money while farmers, who are anxious to increase the size of their farms get no chance of doing anything about it.

Death duties have been causing farmers concern recently. Because of inflation, death duties have risen considerably. It is all very well to say that a farm which was worth £20,000 a few years ago is now worth £100,000 but the son who succeeds to the farm may not have 100 pence; yet he is expected to pay death duties on £100,000. Death duties have been with us from the time of the Pharaohs. It is time now some changes were made. When it is a question of a straight transfer of a farm from a father to a son or daughter, or from a husband to a wife, there should be no death duties because it is merely a transfer of property within the family.

It is a different matter if it is a transfer from, say, an old woman to a nephew or another relative. In that case I definitely would be in favour of death duty. This subject was brought to my mind recently because of an occurrence near my home. A bachelor farmer, who died aged 90, left his very big farm to a nephew who had to pay the full death duties on it. That was only right in that case but, close by, there was another farm of approximately the same size which had changed hands three times over 90 years from father to son. That family had to pay death duties three times whereas, in the other case, death duty was only paid once. I would ask the Minister, in this year's budget, to take another look at death duties.

I would now like to say a few words about old IRA pensions. I want to mention in particular those people who have a medal and are not eligible for a pension. Every man who has an old IRA medal, when he reaches 70 years of age, should get a military service pension. It would be a very small gesture in recognition of what that man did for his country. Because so few of these are still alive today that should not place a burden on the Exchequer.

I should like to deal with the subject of education. Great strides have been made in the field of education during the last few years. This is something we all greatly welcome and appreciate, but we have now reached the stage at which we should examine the work that has been done to ensure that we are getting value for the money spent and that our young people are being directed into the proper employment channels.

I should like to deal with primary education first. We can all remember the time when untrained teachers and staffs of our national schools were paid at a lower rate if they were teaching infant classes. It was a mistaken policy to put only untrained teachers into the infant end of education. I am glad that trend has almost disappeared now.

I do not understand why the Department cannot anticipate the number of retirements due to occur each year and ensure that the number of teachers coming from the training colleges will be adequate to fill those vacancies. If a sufficient number of teachers were forthcoming from training colleges we would not find ourselves in the position of having to keep teachers on after retirement age. Great difficulties are encountered, especially in rural areas, in getting replacement teachers and teachers who have reached the age of 65 years, and who are anxious to retire, have to be prevailed on to carry on teaching for another couple of years.

Some schools—admittedly they are rather isolated cases—still have untrained teachers. Although the number of untrained teachers is considerably less now the Department should ensure that teachers, from infant classes onwards, should be trained to the highest degree possible. I know that it is intended to extend the teachers training course to three years in the near future but that will mean that for one year no young teachers will be forthcoming from the training colleges and the untrained teachers and teachers over the retiring age will have to continue teaching for a further year. That problem should have been foreseen and the intake into the training colleges should have been increased to meet the needs.

I should like to refer to the policy of closing down very small schools. Great plans were formulated some years ago whereby all one-teacher schools would be closed down, all two-teacher schools would be gradually phased out and schools with three teachers would be the minimum required. The scheme went ahead very rapidly for some time but lately it has slowed down. In some rural areas very small schools are still open. I do not agree that primary school children should be transported very long distances to attend a central school with eight, nine or ten teachers. Neither do I agree that children of tender years should have to leave home at 8 o'clock in the morning and not return to their homes until 4.30 p.m. However, the scheme which set out to have three-teacher or four-teacher schools as a minimum should have been proceeded with as rapidly as possible.

As a teacher myself, I believe that a four-teacher school, where the children would not have to travel long journeys, would be acceptable as a desirable type of unit in rural areas. I hope the Department have not lost sight of the problems of the rural areas in their concern for the advancement of the big urban areas. It is true to say that in some urban schools there is a ridiculous pupil/teacher ratio. One teacher to 50 pupils is just not good enough. I know of one teacher in Dublin who teaches a class of 64 four-year-old children. What kind of progress can a teacher be expected to make with a class of that size? The ratio of teacher to children must be reduced substantially if we are to have effective work done.

In recent times, school textbooks have shown some improvement but they are still not of the standard one would wish them to be. The cost of such books is almost prohibitive. It is a common occurrence nowadays for a child in second or third class to have to pay 75p, 80p or 85p for a book. In a home of modest circumstances where there may be three, four or five children attending school this can place a great burden on the parents.

I have no hesitation in admitting that there are funds in the State to help the very necessitous and that is good. However, I am speaking of those who are above the necessitous line and they find difficulty in meeting the demand for books. I shall refer to that again when I am dealing with secondary education. The cost of providing books in post-primary schools is so great and creates such a burden on parents that some children have had to be taken from school. I do not want to raise a scare in connection with this or to pretend that it is happening on a large scale, but it has happened in some cases. The amount of money allocated to help people of slender means to meet the cost of providing text books is not sufficient.

This time last year I referred to the very high failure rate in certain subjects in the leaving certificate examination and I am sorry to have to refer to it again. There is a range of 33 subjects for boys in the leaving certificate and approximately the same for girls. In some subjects the pass rate is creditable and satisfactory but in others it is most unsatisfactory. Senators must be aware that in 1972, 25 per cent of the boys who sat for ordinary level mathematics failed, as did 26 per cent of the girls. That is one-fourth of the 20,000 odd who sat for ordinary level mathematics. This is something that must disturb the officials of the Department of Education, the Minister for Education and Members of this House and it should be examined in depth. A number of factors must have contributed to this. First, it may be that the standard of the mathematics paper is far too high for the pupil of average ability; it may be that the time allowed for the teaching of mathematics in post-primary schools is not sufficient or it may be that the programme is much too long. It may be also that a certain percentage of these pupils have not the required ability to get through in mathematics. If that is true and if we had a properly run system and one by which we could accurately assess a student's ability after the intermediate stage, a percentage of those who are likely to fail in mathematics should be directed away from mathematics for which they have not sufficient aptitude and directed on to another subject that would be of more profit to them and to the nation, whose money is being spent on them.

I am sorry to have to repeat what I said last year, and that there is no significant improvement. I hope that somebody will express concern about it and get down to the task of examining the problem. A failure rate of one-fourth of those sitting for the examination is not satisfactory. I do not profess to know all the reasons; there may be others as well as those I have cited. The number of boys who failed ordinary level mathematics in the leaving certificate examination in June, 1972, was 2,200 and the number of girls who failed was 2,300—a total of 4,500 students.

Of the 12,703 girls who sat for the leaving certificate, only 361 took higher level mathematics. Of the 12,000 odd who sat, 131 took higher level physics and 20 per cent of those failed. The total number of girls who sat for physics was 259 out of a total of more than 12,000; 131 of these took higher level while 128 took lower level. That is a clear indication of a number of facts. If 259 girls out of over 12,000 sit for an important subject like physics, one must come to the conclusion that the standard of the paper is so high that they have no hope of being successful. On the other hand, it may be that there is not a sufficient number of trained personnel in our post-primary schools to teach this subject, or that the schools do not have the proper equipment. The figures in chemistry are almost equally bad: 637 sat for it— higher level, 305; lower level, 332. The numbers in the combined chemistry and physics paper were: 224 higher level, 94 lower level, a total of 380. Girls are not doing higher level mathematics, or physics and chemistry at any level to a worthwhile degree. I am convinced that there is a need to examine this in depth. The failure rate in these subjects is very high. In some of them the number sitting does not warrant our saying that the subjects are being taught to post-primary pupils at all.

On reading through the leaving certificate examination result sheets of 1972, I was astonished to note that the number of girls who took music, at higher level, as a subject was 99 out of over 12,000. Ten took lower level. That is a sad reflection on the type of education that is being offered to our youth and on our attempt at attaining some degree of culture. One would not expect so many boys to take music but it was something of a shock to see that only 22 boys out of about 11,000 took higher level music and two took the lower level; a total of 24 students took music out of a total entry of 11,460. Of the 24, one failed.

In regard to European languages much work has been done during the last decade to prepare us for our entry into Europe, to help the people to think of themselves as members of a large community and to educate our young people to play their part in the new Europe. Approximately 3,673 out of 11,460 boys studied French, a ratio of 1 in 3. It is not an unsatisfactory proportion but it is disturbing to find that one-sixth of those failed. Only 182 students in the Twenty-six Counties studied German, a ratio of 1 in 63. The number of students who studied Italian was 61, a ratio of 1 in 190. Only in regard to French could we be satisfied with our efforts to teach the three main languages of the EEC which are spoken by millions of people. The position with regard to girls studying languages is: 2 out of 3 studied French; 1 in 34 studied German and 1 in 90 studied Italian. We do not appear to have got down to the task of preparing our young people to become members of the EEC.

Senator Butler referred to the small number of students taking agricultural science so it is not necessary for me to comment on it in detail. It is a sad reflection that only 605 out of 11,460 students did agricultural science, a ratio of 1 in every 19. Most of the 605 students who did their leaving certificate entered an agricultural college and took agricultural science as an extra subject in that examination. It was a pity more students did not do likewise. It is also regrettable that the number of places in agricultural schools is so low and that only a ridiculously low percentage of students completing their first year in the agricultural colleges at Ballyhaise, Warrenstown and Pallaskenry are afforded the opportunity of doing their second year. If our farmers hope to compete with their EEC colleagues we must ensure that there are ample opportunities afforded them for the study of agriculture. I wish to join with Senator Butler in paying tribute to the agricultural schools. I am not finding fault with the schools as such but drawing attention to the fact that there is not sufficient accommodation for the number of students who attend. Any money invested in increasing the accommodation of these schools will yield ample returns in the future.

I want to refer to the question of history and geography in post-primary schools. For some reason which I cannot understand, history and geography are considered as one subject in the intermediate certificate. History and geography are matriculation subjects. They should be treated as separate subjects from 1st grade. I am pleased that the Parliamentary Secretary, Deputy Kitt, also a teacher, is present and I hope that he will give the matter some thought and use his influence to ensure that history and geography will in the future be considered as separate subjects. Having them treated as one subject up to intermediate level means that an unsatisfactory number of students study history all through the leaving certificate course.

History is an obligatory subject in primary schools where it can only be dealt with in a cursory manner. Since a high percentage of students do not take history in secondary schools it should be dropped altogether from the national school curriculum. The immature mind is presented with a form of history which it does not comprehend. In some cases it is not history but a form of propaganda or hatred of other people. This is not the type of history we should teach in our schools.

In primary schools it is right to introduce students to history provided we are sure that a large majority of them will continue to study it through their secondary course but we must ensure that the history taught will not be that of the difficulties between Ireland and Britain. Our young people must be given a better understanding of history and how it affected the different peoples of Europe. I do not profess to be an authority on these matters but the figures are such as to warrant a detailed study by the officers of the Department. Their subsequent report I am sure would lead to a changeover.

The number who failed history in the leaving certificate would indicate that it is not likely to be further studied by an increasing number of students. I do not wish to see people being given the leaving certificate when they have not earned it. It is disturbing to note the high percentage of failures. The question is worthy of examination for that reason.

We may ask why so few pupils study Continental languages or music. I have discussed this question with a number of secondary teachers and have been given to understand that the problem lies with the Department's insistence on a specified pupil/teacher ratio. That leaves the head masters and head mistresses of schools in the position that they have to select a certain number of subjects, perhaps six or seven, to get their pupils through their examinations. There is not sufficient time to study music or other subjects akin to that. The ratio is wrong. It is inflicting hardship on the head masters and the results are unsatisfactory. It should be mentioned that secondary schools are subject to rates. A secondary school in County Cavan has to face an annual rates bill of £2,300. Were that sum used for the development of that school in the provision of teaching aids, the provision of libraries, et cetera, much better results would be achieved. It is not right that they should have to face a bill like that.

So far we have been playing around with the subject of career guidance. Career guidance as such does not really exist in most schools although it may exist in the big secondary schools in Dublin. I am not conversant with that. Career guidance is not available in the 400-pupils-on-roll-type of school in the country. That imposes great hardships. I should like all Senators to consider the matter from this angle. It is difficult enough for parents who have been fortunate enough to have had a secondary education or who may have attended university to direct their sons and daughters in regard to the type of career suitable for them on completion of their post-primary course, but free education means that there are vast numbers of boys and girls whose parents have no experience whatever in the field of education. When these young people leave post-primary schools and study to the leaving certificate level there is nobody to guide them as to what career is open to them. I know of students who have come up from the country with an honours leaving certificate, entered for a university course and found that the faculty in which they were interested was unavailable to them as the subjects they had studied were not suitable. The failure rate was high.

Some years ago it was the intention to introduce an advanced leaving certificate. This would be a sixth year course where a student could take up perhaps three or four subjects which would be necessary if he wished to pursue a university course. That was considered to be an excellent idea. It has operated in Northern Ireland for many years. But suddenly it died. There is no word about it now. It now means that pupils attending university are not sufficiently prepared to follow the courses of the faculty they enter. The failure rate in first year university examinations is very high. The introduction of such an advanced leaving certificate course would help considerably to reduce the failure rate. I fail to understand why this idea was dropped.

Before I finish discussing the question of education I should like to raise one or two other points. I wish to congratulate most sincerely those officials and inspectors in the Department of Education who are embarking on remedial teaching courses for slow learners. At this stage I am not referring to what is being done for those who are severely retarded. With the full co-operation of the officials of the Department of Education, two school inspectors, Mattie McDonagh and Pádraig Lynch together with Father Gargan have devised a scheme, which is due to start early in February, under which special classes will be held for slow learners in a central school in Cavan town. A special tribute is due to the two local inspectors, to Father Gargan and to the national teacher of the district, for the way they came together on this project. This scheme is getting under way without causing any embarrassment or attaching any stigma to the slow learning children of the various schools. It will do untold good. It is very good work and I believe it will spread to other centres in a very short time. For too long those slow learners who were not able to measure up were pushed to one side and they left school almost illiterate. The children concerned, their parents and all those people interested in education must be grateful to those who have done so much to get this scheme started.

There is a great difference between slow learners and retarded children. It is disappointing that facilities are not as yet available for taking severely handicapped children into suitable institutions. Throughout the country there are severely mentally handicapped children who have to be kept in their own homes. Some headway has been made. I have been in contact with the Minister for Health and know what his Department are doing in the matter, but the fact is that numbers of children who are severely retarded must live at home with consequent embarrassment to their parents and brothers and sisters.

It is not good for a severely mentally retarded child to be living with normal brothers and sisters up to age 11 or 12 years. We all know how hurtful children can be to their schoolmates in these matters. Only a psychologist could fully assess the harm caused to the normal children living under these conditions. I hope the Minister will use his influence to ensure that accommodation will be provided for these children at an early age.

There has been a steady rise in the cost of living index figures for the past four years or so. My figures show the following increases: mid-November, 1969, 107.6; mid-November, 1970, 118.4; mid-November, 1971, 128.6; mid-November, 1972, 139.2. This shows a rise of ten points per year. I realise these increases are in some measure due to matters outside the control of the Government. At the same time, until recently the Government did not appear to be active enough in checking the rise in the cost of living.

An Leas-Chathaoirleach

It is not in order to discuss a matter such as inflation at any length.

I accept that. The introduction of value-added tax on food in the Republic when it will not be imposed on food in the Six Counties on its introduction in Britain will give a new reality to the Border. Apart from the economic pros and cons of the matter, value-added tax should not be imposed on food for two reasons. Firstly, this would remove the possibility of adding reality to the question of the Border and, secondly, it would be an indication of the Government's determination to keep a check all the way on the rise in the cost of living.

The amount of money allocated to arterial drainage in the past three years shows little change. In 1969-70 it was £1.335 million. In 1970-71 it rose to £1.451 million and in 1972-73 there is a slight increase of £1.463 million. The maintenance figure this year has shown a very decisive increase on the two previous years. The construction figure has shown a decrease.

In my own county, Cavan, we have been pressing for a long time for the arterial drainage of the Erne river. There are 27,000 acres in the Erne catchment area which are either wholly unproductive or less than fully productive because of the failure to have the drainage work done. On making inquiries I have been told a cost benefit survey is being carried out. That means the cost of the work must be related in some way to the extra productivity expected. This is sound thinking on the part of the officials.

I should like to emphasise to the Minister that in Cavan, where the farms are small, an increase in the productivity of three to five acres of land can mean the difference between an economic and an uneconomic holding. This should be borne in mind by the officials of the Department when they are considering how much money should be allocated for this purpose. This drainage was recently passed unanimously at the Cavan County Council meeting.

There are four counties which showed in the last census a continued decline in population, namely, Cavan, Leitrim, Mayo, Roscommon.

I should like to ask the Minister to give consideration in his next budget to exempting from income tax people in their first year of employment, or at least applying a reduced rate. After long schooling young people of 17 and 18 years of age commence employment and it is hard that from the first week's pay...17 and 18 years of age after a long schooling. It is hard for them to have to pay income tax out of their first pay packet. I know that the State has contributed to bringing them that far and that it is only right when they become earners that they should pay something back.

Then they should have fewer responsibilities than when they get older.

I am only asking that this exemption be extended for one year to give them a chance of establishing themselves in the world. People who move away from home and live in flats have a lot of expenses. The Minister should think this over and reduce the rate for one year to give them an opportunity of getting established in their jobs and of adjusting themselves to their new circumstances. With regard to social welfare, the means test for old age pensioners is still being applied too rigidly. Some old age pensioners, especially in rural areas, rear fowl to keep themselves active and to make themselves feel that they are not a burden on the State. It is good for their health that they should engage in this activity. When they apply for an old age pension the pension officer often probes so deeply into what they are doing that he recommends a reduced rate of old age pension. It is unfair to reduce the rate of an old age pension because of thrift or continued industry.

I hope the Minister will soon reduce the qualifying age for the old age pension to 65. I am sure he has given this matter some thought. There is a growing number of workers who are entitled to superannuation at 65.

I am afraid this is out of order.

Self-employed people are at a disadvantage by comparison. I do not intend to go any further than to draw attention to the difference between the employed person when he reaches 65 and the self-employed person who is often a person of modest means.

Like other Senators I should like to pay tribute to the ACC for helping agriculture and particularly for putting young farmers on the right road and helping those living on uneconomic holdings to buy land.

We often read in the newspapers about farmers suffering great losses because their sheep have been attacked by dogs during the night. In some cases even young calves have been attacked. The dog population of this country is very high, and it is time that the control of dogs was enforced. The fee for a dog licence should be increased considerably. In some towns the number of dogs rambling around the streets has been unfavourably commented on by tourists. With regard to the production of mutton and wool the number of sheep would be increased considerably if this menace of marauding dogs was attended to, and I hope that will be looked into with renewed vigour in the near future.

The high rate of road accidents has featured prominently in the papers and on radio recently. It is shocking to be reminded that the number of people killed on our roads in the last couple of years exceeds the number of people killed in Northern Ireland. This must be causing a great deal of worry. During the last couple of years from November to the end of February we heard of pedestrians being killed by passing traffic and people being caught between the lights of meeting cars. The Minister for Local Government should insist that people who have to be on the roads at night should have some part of their clothing white or reflective.

Other Senators have referred to industries in their own areas which have not been going too well. I should like to refer to the recent closing down of a textile factory in Cootehill, County Cavan. We were told at the last meeting of Cavan County Council that there were good reasons for believing that another industry would take over in the same building and that work would be afforded to those who had been paid off. I appeal to those responsible to ensure that there is no delay in encouraging the people from abroad who have expressed an interest in that factory and that every facility is afforded to them to come here, because if the people who have been laid off work do not find alternative employment in the near future it will impose a very great hardship on many families.

I was glad to hear Senator O'Brien's encouraging reference to the progress which has been made in education for slow learners in his area. He also referred in a very encouraging way to the work of the Agricultural Credit Corporation. The main purpose of this debate is to draw the Minister's attention to matters that still remain to be dealt with and to our defects and deficiencies. I know those problems must loom rather large but I must say that I find the whole result rather depressing. We might, more often, refer to the progress that has been made. I am sure that in many areas matters have been progressing to the benefit of the country generally. If we view matters in this light it will put our defects and deficiencies in a brighter context and probably will encourage the Minister to take a more lenient view of certain matters when he is allocating funds.

I wish to refer to one of the most important advances made in the last few years, that is, the implementation of the Health Act, 1970. This was a most important measure for everybody and we are all very glad that the Minister and his Department have been pressing on, patiently and tactfully but at the same time consistently, with the implementation of that Act. A great deal of progress has been made in this field and I am quite certain that there are many benefits accruing as a result.

One of the most important areas in which benefits must be expected, even increasingly, is that of the hospital services. Hospitals are by far the most expensive part of the whole health services machinery. It is common knowledge that up to the present time the hospital system in this country has been most unsatisfactory. It has been unsatisfactory both from the point of view of administration and from the point of view of ordinary professional efficiency. The vast majority of our hospitals are far too small for economic running and are far too small to provide efficient modern services. A few years ago, the FitzGerald Committee made recommendations for very sweeping changes in this system and those recommendations were taken into account when the Health Act was being drafted and, to a certain extent, incorporated in the legislation.

I believe it is now generally understood and appreciated that some of those changes were too sweeping. Many Senators will be aware of strong local opposition to implementing them throughout the country. Apart from the understandable unwillingness of people to have their local hospitals closed or converted to some other purpose, the most controversial issue in this area was the decision, in the FitzGerald Report, to divide hospitals into two categories, regional and general, with corresponding differences in their levels of function. The regional hospitals were put at a very much higher level than the general hospitals.

This change did not make for so much difficulty in the provincial areas because there were well-defined establishments already in, say, Cork and Galway, but it made for great difficulty in Dublin where we had, close beside each other, hospitals that were going to become regional hospitals and hospitals that were going to be placed in the other category. Those hospitals had worked together over a very long period and were attached to medical schools and had, so far as one could see, equal claims to development. I believe the feeling is now quite strong that, in making this division, the report was acting in a very divisive way in a political sense. It is now generally agreed that it would have been much better if those hospitals, of a particular category, could all have been regarded as developing in a rational way in co-operation with each other and when specialities were being allocated this would be done by agreement rather than on the basis of some hard and fast categories. In that way we would achieve goodwill, and progress would be made in a rational manner.

I should like to refer very briefly to the hospitals that have been traditionally associated with the Trinity College Medical School, in which I have a very considerable personal interest. Some 12 years ago, seven of those hospitals agreed to associate themselves in a federation. This association was incorporated and given legal status by an Act of this Oireachtas. In doing so each of those hospitals realised that its identity and its traditions would gradually become less and less distinct and eventually probably would disappear. All of those hospitals had very proud traditions. They were all over 100 years old and three of them were over 200 years old. They had been located in densely populated areas of Dublin where there were very many sick-poor people who had no other source of help in their illnesses. In agreeing to form a federation, those hospitals looked forward to the replacement of their old buildings by new buildings with larger units. It was, therefore, with considerable satisfaction that they found the Minister for Health making a statutory order, about 1½ years ago, in which he arranged that those hospitals should be associated with the old St. Kevin's Hospital in Dublin and become a new hospital under the title of St. James's Hospital. In a message on that occasion, published recently in a brochure celebrating the tenth anniversary of the setting-up of this federation, the Tánaiste and Minister for Health, Deputy Childers, made the following statement:

The new hospital buildings to be provided on the St. James's site will include extensive out-patient facilities, at least 350 additional beds and all the diagnostic and treatment facilities to serve the total complex. Medical teaching facilities will also be developed there and the existing co-ordination of facilities between St. James's and St. Patrick's Psychiatric Hospital, as well as the close liaison envisaged between St. James's Hospital and Dr. Steevens' Hospital (itself a member of the Federation and situated close by) will form the basis of a very large hospital complex indeed.

Business suspended at 1 p.m. and resumed at 2.30 p.m.

When we adjourned for lunch I was talking about the prospect of developing the association between the federated hospitals in Dublin and St. James and the decision of the Minister for Health to encourage that idea and make it possible by providing certain developments at St. James' Hospital. In order to indicate to the Minister for Finance the way in which this will benefit the financial aspects of the health services, I will point out that there are at present, in Dublin, south of the Liffey, no fewer than 19 hospitals. Eight of these are general hospitals; there are two maternity hospitals, three children's hospitals, two cancer hospitals, a mental hospital, an eye and ear hospital and two fever hospitals.

When the federated hospital scheme for associating with St. James' is completed in its first stage, four of those federated hospitals will cease to exist as independent units and will be transferred to the St. James' site. A further hospital, not now formally associated with the federation but at the moment in negotiation with it, will also be transferred. That will reduce the number of hospitals at least by five. This must be a considerable saving in the running of these units when they are all transferred to one site, under one authority and administration and sharing tremendously heavy overheads.

This will not be an inexpensive operation. It will involve a considerable amount of capital for the initial buildings and facilities. The resulting unit will not be inexpensive to run. But at least we will know that any expense incurred in the running of it will be effectively used and that the services will be increased in efficiency by this process. The development of St. James' Hospital in this way would be the most important step taken in the catering for the sick of Dublin in the present century and certainly for the sick poor.

There is an enormous population developing in the south-west of Dublin city and the adjacent rural area of County Dublin. It is a very mixed kind of population with considerable industrial development. A great potential exists for almost every kind of activity which is expected from a population of that kind. This new hospital, placed as it is at the apex of the sector which is being developed in this way, will provide an enormously improved service and will be a challenge, not only to the health services but also to the medical educational services in this city.

The benefit will not be confined to the hospital because it is intended in developing it to develop very close links also with the community on a pattern which has not yet been fully exploited in this country and has not even been tried in some of our centres. The practitioners in the community will be encouraged to work in the hospital and to be associated with the consultants. The consultants will be encouraged to associate with the practitioners in solving their problems of care in the community. A large out-patient clinic will be built. It is hoped that the amount of hospitalisation of patients will thereby be greatly reduced. Their problems can be investigated and convalescent work can be done from the out-patient clinic without incurring the tremendously high cost of having patients in hospital beds.

All these factors will be a saving on the health services and will increase the efficiency of medical care. If the Minister for Health is presented with bills for a certain amount of money to further these projects, it will be in the context of this saving on the one hand and increased efficiency on the other.

There will be bills, for instance, to help the practitioner aspects of the services. At the moment, we still have a residue of the old system whereby practitioners work almost independently of each other. There are very few group practices. There are very few arrangements for health clinics where a group of doctors can see patients and have facilities for certain investigations. If these are developed, then the encouragement for this association between the hospitals and practitioners in this area will be greatly increased. It is something which should form the pattern throughout the country. In each of the large centres the larger hospitals should form this link with the community. Nothing but good can result from such an association.

The next point I should like to mention is that of medical education, because it arises from the developments I have mentioned. All these hospitals are teaching hospitals and, therefore, the impact of this development on medical education is considerable. We have five medical schools in the Republic of Ireland and we produce about 400 doctors per year. This is more than any other country of our size. There is no doubt that the country is involved in a considerable cost on this account. On the other hand, I believe this cost is sometimes exaggerated because people include the cost of the expensive teaching hospitals and specialist centres, forgetting that these are there primarily for service purposes and are being used by the medical schools for teaching.

Some time ago Deputy Donogh O'Malley and Deputy Lenihan who were, successively, Ministers for Education produced what was an admirable scheme for amalgamating the two university medical schools in Dublin but it did not materialise. In the course of the negotiations following that scheme it was agreed by the colleges concerned that at least we might try to join together the clinical sections of our medical schools. A pattern was worked out for the operation of such a joint school. This pattern has been recommended recently by the Higher Education Authority in their scheme for the rationalisation and re-organisation of university education in Dublin. Although it does not contain all the advantages of the original one medical school plan, it is an improvement on the existing situation. It should improve efficiency and should at the same time bring about some saving in the operating costs. Nevertheless, there will, of course be costs.

Again, in the context of the prospects of increased efficiency, I am telling the Minister for Finance that the costs for the establishment at St. James's Hospital of proper teaching facilities will have to be met, because the joint medical school will be operated from three centres, St. James's Hospital, the Mater Hospital and St. Vincent's Hospital. In this connection there has been a general impression, which I should like to correct, that St. James's Hospital will in future be the primary centre of medicine of all kinds, undergraduate and post-graduate.

One gets this impression from reading the Higher Education Authority's Report. I cannot say whether or not this was intended. I do know that the people who work in the federated hospitals and who will be working in St. James's do not want it that way. They do not want to be at the apex of a pyramid with their colleagues with whom they have worked in harmony in the past at some lower level. The plan that we have, and I think I speak for the majority in my medical school as well as those in the hospital, is an association of these three centres on a more or less equal footing.

The centres will agree amongst themselves as to how to distribute the workload. There will be no great concentration of prestige specialities in some particular centre, leaving the others out in the cold. There are advantages on the St. James's side in relation to size and the close proximity to a very large community which needs the services of this hospital. The other two hospitals do not share these advantages. St. Vincent's Hospital has a large site but has not the same kind of community adjacent to it. The Mater Hospital has a large community but a restricted site. The prospects for development at St. James's Hospital are, therefore, attractive and should be taken advantage of but not in any sense to try to grab the whole feast to the exclusion of everybody else.

The project I have outlined and which the Higher Education Authority are intimately concerned and which will, therefore, concern the Minister for Education, and I am quite certain the Minister for Health as well, must be looked at. We are dealing here with the financial side. It is going to cost a certain amount of money and that will not be a small amount. I should like the Minister for Finance to know that all of us are convinced that it is extremely important from the point of view of the health services in that community, as a pattern for the rest of the country and as a proposal to improve medical education also.

Another aspect of the HEA Report on this project was the recommendation that this joint school should be run by some kind of conjoint board. We all realise that a project such as this will have to have a fairly firm hand controlling it. There would have to be some type of co-ordinating committee and that committee will have to have teeth. As a member of a university faculty I feel it would be a great pity if any body like that should come between the clinical schools of the university and the university itself.

The clinical schools have always been in a difficult position in relation to the university. Very often one finds —I had this experience as dean of a medical school—that the university did not realise it had clinical schools. You entered the hospitals where the clinical schools were and many people there did not realise that they belonged to the university. The job of welding these together into a single unit that one could call a medical school has been very difficult. It has been successfully accomplished.

I should not like to see that result which was so difficult to attain spoiled by something thrust in now between the hospitals with their clinical departments and the university. That is not a sentimental viewpoint. I look at it in that way because I believe the university is the custodian of standards. If you separate any section of academic activity from the parent body you are in danger of lowering standards. The great influence the university has will not be felt. After a while things begin to slip.

I should now like to turn to the post-graduate phase of medical education. We have been in trouble in the past about our under-graduate schools. About 20 years ago various bodies came from the United Kingdom and from America and told us they were not any good. We were very disturbed. This was largely because of the scattered condition of our small hospitals. We have now adjusted most of these matters and the position is quite satisfactory. When we look at post-graduate training and education we have to admit that in the past nobody bothered about it and at the present it does not exist in any organised sense.

This is a serious matter because modern medical care is becoming increasingly specialised. If we do not have organised training covering the various specialities then we cannot expect doctors to develop the necessary training and expertise which they require to practise these specialities.

One of the reasons why we have allowed ourselves to get into this situation is that from some points of view we are fortunate in having in the United Kingdom on one side, and in the United States on the other, well developed centres for post-graduate training. Our young doctors go there. They get their training at no expense to us and they come back to take up posts in our hospitals.

We cannot continue to rely on this for very much longer. For one thing, if a centre does not have facilities for post-graduate training it will not attract good young doctors to work there. Any young doctor now looks far into the future. He knows that his career depends on his acquiring some form of training and post-graduate qualifications. He will go to the centre where he can get this training and the necessary qualifications. If we in Dublin, or any of the other centres in Ireland, do not have these facilities the better graduates will not come and the standards of our service will depreciate. It is a much more complex organisation than undergraduate training. It involves a whole lot of separate specialities, the medical schools locally, the Royal College of Physicians and the Royal College of Surgeons and a fair number of professional bodies, professional associations and so on.

The question of co-ordinating all these and developing a system is difficult. The Royal College of Surgeons and the Royal College of Physicians have made a good deal of progress by setting up committees to deal with, on the one hand, higher training in surgery and, on the other, medicine. They have formed associations with the corresponding bodies in Great Britain, because in this matter not only must you have a broad basis academically, but you must also have a broad basis geographically. Even the largest centres in Britain are not capable of training people in all the specialities, but must share the training with each other. We must also share with centres elsewhere.

There are no fewer than 18 recognised specialities in medicine and eight in surgery. Each year, and sometimes each month, groups are writing in asking if the particular work they are engaged in can be recognised as a separate speciality. I should not be surprised if by this time next year there were two dozen specialities in medicine.

In each of these specialities records must be kept of the phases of training through which a graduate is going. The places where he is trained must be inspected and approved to ensure they are adequate for the purpose of his training. All this must be looked after by some administrative machine which will cost money. At present the centre of this machine is in London. We will have to develop one of our own in Dublin. The President of the College of Surgeons and myself are in communication with the Minister for Health about the cost of running this centre. We must have the administrative costs of the central organisation and also expenses to meetings elsewhere, expenses to visit and report upon hospitals elsewhere, and the greater expense of making sure that our hospitals are adequate for the purpose. They will all have to be upgraded and have facilities such as libraries and records which some of them have not got to an adequate extent at present.

There are other specialities such as obstetrics, gynaecology, psychiatry and general practice. If you want to be comprehensive you would have to envisage the formation of a council of post-graduate training which would look after all these specialities with separate sections of the council to take care of the larger separate areas. We have suggested to the Minister for Health that such a council should be established. In establishing such a council it is to be hoped he would co-operate closely with the Minister for Education and the Higher Education Authority. Post-graduate education is just as much education as undergraduate education is, though the emphasis is slightly different. Therefore, I should not like it to become entirely a technical matter and to be divorced from education.

In relation to the question of specialisation, another aspect of our entry into the EEC should be given prominence. Anyone who has visited a continental city will have seen the brass plates on doctors' doors announcing they are cardialogists, neurologists, et cetera. Not only are they specialists but they are not backward in telling you what they specialise in. We do not do that here. We put the doctor's name only on the door. In the past the idea of specialisation and the acceptance of these special categories of practice has been more deeply rooted in the continental countries than it has here. In spite of the fact that we have not got these outward, visible signs of specialisation our method is probably sounder. On the other hand, in this new world into which we are entering, conformity appears to be the key word and we must develop our specialities as separate entities. In doing so, I hope we will not reduce the value and training that we need, in order to obtain such recognition for specialists. The existence of this situation in European countries underlines the need for us to develop as quickly as possible along the same lines.

Medical research follows naturally from post-graduate training. One expects people as part of their training to undertake, if possible, some research to give them an indication of how information is obtained, how difficult it is to be certain, and to develop their critical faculty. The organisation and development of research has been debated during the last year or so to a considerable extent here and in Great Britain. The principal focus for these discussions was the report produced by Lord Rothschild at the end of 1971. This report suggested that the funds which research councils of all kinds got from the Government should be reduced and that the amounts saved should be given to the Government Departments to be used by them for developing whatever research was necessary to help them in their operations.

In Britain the Government have accepted this recommendation and by now the funds of all the research councils are in process of suffering this reduction. None of the councils are pleased at this development. They hope to get back some of these funds on a contractual basis for the purpose of having this research done for Government departments. It interferes somewhat with their freedom.

The Medical Research Council here have repeatedly drawn attention to the need for a research policy. In the report of the Medical Research Council, 1971, it states, under the heading "Research Policy"—

In recent reports the council has drawn attention to the fact that there are in this country, financed from public funds, several bodies with research responsibilities directly or indirectly related to medicine. But there is no mechanism for effecting any correlation between them. The Medical Research Council and the Medico-Social Research Board have one member in common. The Medical Research and National Science Councils exchange views on grant applications from time to time. A member of the Medical Research Council serves on a special committee of the Institute for Industrial Research and Standards dealing with the design of equipment that might be used in medicine, but these contacts are essentially informal and there is no question of any attempt to shape policy. The Medical Research Council and the Agricultural Institute have areas of common interest, of which nutrition is the most obvious, but no means of exploiting any of them have been explored.

This section has appeared in previous reports in similar wording. We, in the Medical Research Council, do not regard this as a new kind of problem. It had not been tackled until last September, when the National Science Council, through the Minister for Finance, produced this report on science policy formulation and resource allocation. The gist of that report, and the recommendation arising from it, is the very sensible suggestion that there should be a central body involved in dealing with all kinds of research, policy forming and fund allocating. This body should not only deal with the research councils, on the one hand, but it should also be sensitive to the needs of Government Departments, on the other, so that Government Departments would not have to set up small research sections of their own. They could indicate to this central body the kind of work they needed done for a particular development, and that body would then arrange to have that work done by the appropriate research council.

This is an excellent suggestion and would be an immense step forward. I have only one criticism to make in regard to it, and that is that this recommendation and report do not take account of the Medical Research Council. The report says that amongst the bodies which the new statutory National Science Council might take under its wing is the Medical Research Council's laboratories. These laboratories are situated in the science area of Trinity College, where Dr. Vincent Barry has a very distinguished team of workers involved in research work on the chemotherapy of tuberculosis and cancer. They are entirely funded and operated by the Medical Research Council.

It is surprising to find such a recommendation being brought up in such a report presented to the Minister for Finance without reference to, or consultation with, the Medical Research Council. We are not unduly sensitive about this, but we should like to know where we stand, not only with regard to the operation of that particular laboratory but also to the rest of our field of activity. Are we going to be left out on a limb, depending on the funds we get from the Minister for Health, which are derived from the Sweepstakes, or will we be brought more into the mainstream and made part of an operation that is taken care of by the Government?

Whereas the other research bodies are statutory bodies and, therefore, properly funded by the central financial resources of the State, the Medical Research Council is a company under the Companies Act. Therefore, it would not be proper to fund it from the central resources of the State. I may be wrong about that, but this is the impression I have. If this is the situation we, in the Medical Research Council, should like to have this looked at carefully. I feel uneasy when I am out on a limb. Successive Ministers for Health have always treated us very sympathetically within the limits of the available funds. They always said they would like to give us more, but they had not got it. I should like to be associated with somebody whose pocket was a bit larger.

I do not know what the future of the Hospital Sweepstake's Fund is going to be. In view of any possible changes in that regard, we should be safer in a different kind of association. My colleagues and I should like to have an opportunity to discuss the intention in this regard. In 1972 the Medical Research Council got approximately £150,000 for the operation of our whole research activity. The Agricultural Institute got about £3 million. I suppose that is fair enough because it is a productive body and the results of its research are to be seen in bigger and better potatoes or bigger and better cattle, whereas we are merely trying to improve the level of health. I keep telling people that health is an economic factor. We cannot have a healthy economy unless we have healthy people, but this never seems to produce any dividend in the way of funds for medical research. The money we got last year worked out at about £50 per 1,000 of the population.

At the moment we are looking at the research activities of all the European countries, not only the European Economic Community, but of all of them. From my records I find that, compared with our expenditure on medical research of £50 per 1,000 population, Finland spends £118 per 1,000; the Federal Republic of Germany, £400 per 1,000; and Great Britain, £350 per 1,000 of the population. It is hard to say whether these figures are comparable or not, because a lot of research is done in places which are not funded by research councils, such as university councils, and so on. There is no uniformity about this.

The Medical Research Council would like the Government to have a look at the whole research co-ordination machinery in this country, and in doing so to include the Medical Research Council in their plans and discuss them with the Council. They would like the Government to keep in mind that in relation to expenditure on medical research we are at the bottom of the league at the moment.

I should like to take this opportunity of congratulating the Cathaoirleach on his election and to wish him every success.

Fisheries have not been mentioned in the debate so far. My constituency has a large coastline, so naturally I am concerned about fisheries. Our fishing industry will play an important role in our economy in the years to come. As a result of the high prices for agricultural produce, particularly beef, mutton, bacon and so on, it is natural to assume that the housewife will be looking for some cheaper commodity to put on the menu for her household. Fish will play an important role here. Up to now the fishing industry has been practically neglected. I want to congratulate the Minister for Agriculture and Fisheries on the terms he negotiated for our fisheries on our entry into the EEC. We should like to congratulate him for keeping in touch with the various fishing organisations during that period. We were all very glad to see that there was complete unanimity and agreement between the Minister, the Department and the various fishing organisations when our terms of entry were being negotiated. It was gratifying to see representatives of the fishing organisations present in Brussels to meet and consult with the Minister and the then Minister for Foreign Affairs, Deputy Hillery, so as to ensure that the best possible terms were negotiated. We understand that no matter what terms were agreed there would be certain sections that could not be pleased but, by and large, we were fortunate in getting such good terms. We have succeeded in getting a 12-mile limit in regard to practically the whole of our coastline.

I should like to congatulate the Government on the interest they have taken in the fishery industry for some years past. I regard the selection of the major fishery ports as the greatest achievement to date in fishery because, prior to the Government decision to establish major fishery ports around the coastline, we had only haphazard efforts made in relation to piers, harbours and slipways. Formerly we had such-and-such a person seeking a few thousand pounds for a jetty while another person was looking for a similar amount for a harbour. The Government, in their wisdom, realised that if fisheries had to be tackled they would have to be tackled on a sound principle. With that view in mind they selected the major fishery ports, that is Castletownbere, Dunmore East, Howth, Killybegs and Galway and, as a result, we have five very fine major fishing ports located around our coastline at convenient points.

I come from the Castletownbere area. It is very satisfying to see the improvements that have taken place there over the past five or six years. When the development of Castletownbere is completed, approximately £1 million will have been spent on developing the harbour to ensure that our fishermen have every assistance available to carry on their job more efficiently. In Castletownbere a very fine pier has been built giving easy access to the fishing boats to tie up and land their catches. The harbour has been dredged and an island in the harbour has been acquired for development as an industrial estate. To ensure that that development will go ahead efficiently the Government have bridged that island with the mainland and are installing electricity and a water supply there.

I am sure the same good work is being undertaken in the other major fishing ports. It was very pleasant to return to Castletownbere last autumn and see the fishing boats coming into the port in the evening or early morning with their herring catches. I noticed the same progress in Killybegs last September when I visited the district. Killybegs port is a hive of activity in the early morning when the boats land their catches. That is the type of progress we wish to see in relation to the fishing industry.

I should also like to congratulate BIM on the manner in which they handle their affairs. Naturally, we would all like to see them doing more but, as I have said already, we are comparatively new to modern fishing. BIM have done marvellous work in establishing training schools. We have one in Donegal, where young men can train and acquire the necessary expertise in regard to fishing. They are enabled by BIM to buy and skipper their own boats when they are fully trained. I would like to see fishery schools established in the major fishery ports. The fact that young men from Cork or Kerry have to go to Donegal to obtain training puts them at a disadvantage. It is necessary for them to enter the industry very young, at 16 or 17 years, and begin their apprenticeship as deckhands and go on from there. If there were schools established in the five major fishery ports it would encourage more young men to train for the industry. This could be achieved in conjunction with the vocational education committees.

It is important to ensure that our fishing industry is given adequate protection. I know that the responsibility for this lies with the Department of Defence in relation to the patrolling of our coastline to ensure that there are no infringements of our fishing limits. I understand the Government have purchased two extra boats to undertake that work but that is not sufficient. We need more patrol vessels to protect our fishing grounds for our fishermen.

An Bord Iascaigh Mhara should set themselves a target in relation to discovering new fishing grounds, ascertaining the availability of fish, and the different species available. They would then be able to pass on their findings to our fishermen. This would ensure continuity of employment for them. We are fortunate in having very rich herring grounds off Dunmore East, Castletownbere, Killybegs and Galway but other aspects of fishing should be examined with a view to establishing continuity of employment in an area. In that way, our fishermen would not have to travel from Castletownbere, when the herring season finishes, to Dunmore and Galway to ensure supplies of fish. If more research were undertaken in this regard it would alleviate the problem considerably.

BIM should provide fishermen with bigger and better boats. They have done a very good job of work in relation to boatyards. We have a boatyard in Baltimore which gives very good local employment. In speaking to the manager and the men employed in that yard, I discovered that they have enough work on hands to keep them going for the next two or three years. However, I believe they are concentrating too much on the 65-foot to 75-foot boat. I would like to see them building bigger boats so that our fishermen could be encouraged to stay for nine or ten days on the fishing grounds.

At present our fishermen go out to the fishing grounds in the morning and return in the evening. This situation does not apply in Continental countries, or in England or Scotland. British trawlermen go to Iceland and at the moment we can see the problems they have there in relation to fishing within Icelandic waters. The same thing applies to the Spanish and French trawlers. They are coming in close to our shores. They remain out for ten days or a fortnight.

Our fishermen should be encouraged to stay at sea for longer periods. This is something that could be done in the training school. There would not be much point in asking the older skippers, but this is something that must be done in the future if we are to ensure an adequate supply of fish for the home and export markets. I appeal to the Government to deal with this problem at training school level immediately. In addition, Bord Iascaigh Mhara should have a larger boat built, a boat that would be capable of staying at sea for longer periods.

While I am pleased with the work being done by BIM, they should try to meet the wishes of the fishermen and of the skippers who are purchasing the boats. These are the men who will have the responsibility of seeing that the boats are paid for and that the men employed in them will receive their wages. Therefore, I think BIM should have more consultation with the fishermen in relation to their boat requirements. At present we in Ireland are building only a standard type trawler. Some of the younger men I have spoken to are very anxious to get the multi-type trawler, which can be changed from herring fishing to white fishing and to side trawling, and so on. I hope BIM will examine this aspect and encourage the younger fishermen to use that type of boat to enable them to stay at sea for longer periods.

Fish will play a very important part in our economy and it is very gratifying to see what has been done during the past ten or 15 years. I come from an area which depends to a great extent on fishing. Many changes have taken place there since the early 1930s. I remember then seeing small farmers who had been lobster-fishing selling their catch at four shillings a dozen. Last year fishermen were able to get from £12 to £15 a dozen for their shellfish. This is a very lucrative business for the small farmer and is something in which he should be encouraged to participate. The majority of those living along our coasts are small farmers, who must find a way of augmenting their income from fishing. It has been a tradition with those living along the southern, western and northern coasts to look to the sea as a means of supplementing their living.

It is unfortunate that there are people coming to our shellfish areas from other places, such as London, Dublin or Cork, on the pretext of spending a holiday. They hire boats or bring their own boats, and using divers' equipment, fish for shellfish, thereby taking the livelihood from our small farmers and part-time fishermen. I know this is a difficult problem and I am wondering how it can be solved. From inquiries made, I have ascertained that an individual must be caught in the actual process of taking the fish from the water. I should like to draw this problem to the attention of the Department of Agriculture and Fisheries. These skin divers ensure their holiday is very worthwhile by making it lucrative. I do not want to confuse the issue, because at present I know it is legal to dive for sea urchins and I do not want to interfere with that type of fishing. There is a good market on the Continent for the type of fish known as sea urchins, but diving for lobster and crayfish is an entirely different matter.

I should like to refer now to the mackerel fishing industry. In the 1930s it was the practice to have the mackerel salted and exported to the Continent, but the marketing arrangements were bad. The result was that the mackerel fishing industry died down. With the advent of refrigeration and ice this industry could become a very lucrative one. In recent years the small farmers have been engaging again in mackerel fishing and they have been getting a ready market because of the fact that the fish can be iced, put into refrigerated containers and taken to Dublin, Billingsgate or the Continent. Therefore, BIM should look into the possibility of seeking steady markets for this type of fish, to ensure that our small farmers can be assured of a regular income.

I should like to raise a point in relation to salmon fishing. This can be a vexed question because salmon is a very expensive fish and one that plays an important part in our economy in many ways. From the tourism point of view, it can be said that, if a salmon fisherman comes to Ireland to spend a holiday and catches only one salmon for the week or fortnight, that salmon is worth at least £100 a week to the economy in relation to that individual. This aspect of salmon fishing must have been taken into consideration by the Department of Agriculture and Fisheries when they accepted the recommendation of the Inland Fisheries Trust to limit the number of salmon fishing licences from 1973. I am very concerned about this because in my own area in West Cork, from Mizen Head to Blackball Head, near Dursey Island, there were about 300 part-time and full-time fishermen who had drift net licences last year and who had quite a lucrative season during the months of June, July and August, the open season for salmon fishing.

For some unknown reason the board of fishery conservators sought the restriction of these licences for 1973. They, in conjunction with the Inland Fisheries Trust, requested the Department to bring in an order limiting the number of licences. In the area from Mizen Head to Crow Head the licences have been restricted to a mere 22. Under that restriction a person must have held a licence for three of the five previous years. There is a great injustice being done to the small farmers and full-time fishermen in that and other areas around the coast who have been restricted from participating in this type of fishing.

We are all concerned with saving the rural areas and trying to make life as attractive as we possibly can for those who live in them. Having these licences withdrawn from the people is actually taking away their livelihood. Irish people should be allowed to fish in Irish waters. It will be argued that this measure has been taken in the interest of conservation. Fishermen and small farmers are very concerned about conservation and about having sufficient stocks of fish. They maintain that restricting licences to a mere 22 will not solve the problem. It will create greater problems, because some of these people who are traditional fishermen will fish irrespective of the consequences. This is something we must try to avoid. These fishermen hold a different view of conservation. If the fishing season were shortened they would not object or if, in the interests of conservation, a levy of 5p was placed on each salmon caught, the fishermen would have no objection. It would still entitle them to pursue their means of livelihood.

I would ask the Department to reconsider this matter in the interest of keeping the small farmers in our rural areas. We have been trying for years to find employment for them. They do not want social welfare. They are anxious to earn their own living from the adjacent land and sea. We should encourage and help them to do that. I would ask the Minister to see if the number of licences could be greatly increased for the coming year.

The other point I wish to make is in relation to the Land Commission. I should like if the Land Commission would distribute the lands they have acquired. Farmers living adjacent to farms taken over by the Land Commission pay a very high rate for the grazing or letting of it in the hope that they will get some of this land when it is being divided. The period the Land Commission hold on to land is entirely too long. I would ask the Minister to recommend to the Land Commission that, if possible, the period of subdivision be drastically reduced. The land is not being utilised to its maximum potential. Land which is uncultivated for five or six years deteriorates and it takes years to bring it back to its former quality.

My next point is in relation to the Forestry Division. We could have a high rate of employment in forestry if more lands were acquired. I know every effort is being made to acquire land but the price being offered by the Forestry Division is entirely too low. The Forestry Division must face the fact that land value has increased. Land which ten years ago would not have been considered suitable for any form of agricultural pursuit is now used for agricultural purposes. For that reason I would ask the Minister to recommend to the Land Commission to greatly increase the price at present being paid for land to ensure an adequate supply of land for forestry employment purposes.

I would also ask the Minister to recommend to the Land Commission the setting up of a factory in the West Cork region. We have between Dunmanway and Macroom thousands of acres of forest and a factory could easily be established there. At present, the timber from that district is being sent to Scariff in County Clare. If a factory was established in that area it would greatly ease the problem.

The present debate gives us unlimited range to review the activities of the many Departments and facets of Government activity and—very belatedly—to give our views on the last budget. I hope, when we give our views, that they will have some influence on the coming budget.

First, I want to look at the question of Departmental organisation. All our debates at present must be set in the context of our membership of the EEC. In that respect we recognise that the most urgent problem is to ensure that democratic processes prevail in that community. In other words, that the Commission will not get out of control, the Commission being the central bureaucracy with almost unlimited powers. How this will affect us is of immediate concern in the present debate. It affects us in this way, that the Commission—the European bureaucracy—deals directly with our bureaucracy. Therefore, it makes more urgent the problem of bringing some democracy into our bureaucracy, a problem which we have discussed many times—in other words, trying to ensure that the ordinary due processes of consultation with organised groups prevail in our organisation of the Government Departments.

It must be admitted that our situation is far from perfect. The growth of bureaucracy over the past three or four years has been alarming. The many Government crises we have had in that period have given bureaucracy freer rein to assume increased power. It is vitally important that we should make our effort at this stage. In the European context the threat is far greater than in the past. It behoves the Government and the political parties to ensure that a proper and suitable committee system is developed as a matter of urgency.

If we need examples of this we have only to look at the small countries in Europe to see how they combine with the modern bureaucracy to run the modern state with the maximum responsiveness to the individual citizens of the state. We need to take no better example than the Dutch Parliament, which is organised into a series of committees. There is a committee on agriculture and at least two or three on education et cetera. These committees are very jealous of their own rights of their responsibilities. The political parties are represented on these committees more or less on a proportionate basis. The representatives of the parties have a genuine interest in the subject dealt with by the committee. They have made a special study of it.

Each committee keeps a watch on its area of the national life. If it feels that new legislation or major changes in administration are called for it acquaints the Minister concerned that it proposes to study this aspect of the work entrusted to it. The Minister will have the matter looked at by his Department. In the course of that study the services of the civil servants concerned are made available to them. They meet across the table. They discuss the matter and arrive at the best line of action they can devise. The Minister is informed of their progress. If legislation is considered to be necessary, the suggestion is made to the Minister. If he decides to introduce such legislation he first of all sends the heads of the proposed legislation to the committee for their study and observations. The committee make their study. It goes back again as often as is necessary and it is only at that stage that a Government Bill is printed.

All that work is missing from our system here. It is required to be introduced as a matter of urgency. If the Minister and his Department felt they needed to make changes in a certain area, the first step would be to acquaint the committee with responsibility for that area of the proposals. The process of consultation would then start. In the course of these consultations the committee consult quite freely with outside vocational groups and outside experts.

This is a positive approach and much more likely to get results than what we consider to be the solution to our problems. We let a matter drift and finally solve everything by setting up a commission which will at least have the merit of keeping the problem quiet for another four or five years. The report of the commission will probably create some public interest for a couple of months. At the end of that time it will be forgotten. This has happened to the Devlin Report and a number of other reports we have had down the years which appear to have met with little or no response. I would appeal to all Members of the Houses of the Oireachtas who have the opportunity of travelling to Europe to study the parliaments of the small countries, see how they operate and let us, as a matter of urgency, try to get something similar going here.

It is saddening to find that the many appeals which have been made in this House and in every other forum in the country for the setting up of an Oireachtas Committee on Northern Ireland affairs have not yet been answered. What is the hold up? Why can this not be done? Eight months ago the Taoiseach promised that this committee would be instituted. Surely the type of consultation with the two leaders of the Opposition, Deputies Corish and Cosgrave, which has taken place very infrequently and very haphazardly, is not a substitute for an organised committee on Northern Ireland affairs.

Appeals which were made here for a committee on such an important question as national security have not been answered. If such a committee had been set up and was functioning with even 50 per cent of the efficiency of corresponding committees in Holland we would not have had the spectacle we had in the debate before the Christmas recess, where there was so much misrepresentation of the efforts being made at that time. A proper committee would have obviated all that.

At a time when we are endeavouring to show that the idea of a United Ireland is an attractive one within the context of the EEC and where we are asking the inhabitants of the Six Counties to think about joining with us here in some type of federation, surely it is an urgent necessity for our Government to show that we are a democratic nation, and to show that every group can play a meaningful role in the affairs of this country. It is up to our Government to show that they are the master and not the servant of our Civil Service. That is what most thinking people in the North will look to. In other words, have our Government been able to modernise, have they been able to create a Civil Service that is capable and adequate to deal with the many problems of a modern state, have they been able to reconcile that with the proper consultation and approach to vocational and other groups so as to create a State in which everyone feels he can play a meaningful role?

The challenge is to our Government. It is far more important for them to set a headline in this rather than the fiddling they have done with the Constitution or their talk about a future Constitution. The important thing is the laws under which people live. The Constitution is at a stage beyond that. It is the mode of Government that shapes the manner of living in the State. In my view we have made too little progress in our 50 years of self-government. I hope that the challenge of the EEC and the prospect of having a greatly increased dose of bureaucracy due to EEC membership will spur us into action and will cause Members of the Oireachtas to look again at our role and will cause vocational and other groups to demand their rights and not be put off by shoddy attempts at consultation.

I agree that a good deal of progress has been made on the educational front. The higher educational bodies are coming closer together and are working in harmony and co-operation and this also applies to the various teaching bodies.

There is a misguided, bull-headed attempt by the Department of Education to impose their ideas on comprehensive schools or community schools on the public. I cannot understand why the Minister for Education and the Government allowed this to happen. The most recent incident took place in a highly organised efficient secondary school in Borrisokane where for two years there has been a running battle over the contention that they are not large enough to give leaving certificate courses, despite their having 275 pupils attending the school and are giving the utmost satisfaction to the people in the neighbourhood.

They are not allowed to sit as official candidates for the leaving certificate; they must sit as private individuals and travel to the centre in Nenagh. That is bureaucracy at its worst and it is matched by similar activity in Lixnaw where there is a Presentation Convent; for years before the State gave any real assistance to secondary education they had been doing an excellent job for the children of that region in North Kerry. There are 250 pupils in this school, yet they too are to be denied teaching for the leaving certificate. They are looking for teachers and they are being given bus drivers. That is the recipe for modern education as pronounced by our Department of Education.

School inspectors and other professional people in the Department of Education know the facts about education and have a reasonable attitude and in general I pay tribute to their work. It is the policy-makers in the Department who are foisting this misguided policy on the community. Their claim to pontificate on education is the fact that they are unsullied by having ever stood for a day before a class. Perhaps they may have looked into American education at a seminar for a few weeks and have come away indoctrinated with the worst "out-Deweyism" from American education. It is time to call a halt to this and to realise that what is needed in our schools is to help those who have been trying to help themselves. Co-operation is needed, with the local unit sharing facilities, sharing laboratories and sharing language teachers.

On looking at the Estimates we find that by far the most rapidly increasing cost associated with primary education is for travel services. This stands at £5 million for the current year. That is all right if we can afford it but there is much unused transport available such as the family car. The schools could organise their own transport through pools.

One-fifth of the expenditure on transport plus a subsidy would enable the school principals to organise this type of pool arrangement at local level. The other £4 million would give a great boost to the secondary schools. The most progressive people on education I meet are those actively concerned with post-primary teaching. They know what additions would be desirable in their schools such as an opportunity to teach another language and, above all, they want more free time for teachers in order to counsel the students to give them extra tuition.

They know this better than the "johnny-come-latelies" who are trying to impose policy on them but they have not got the resources. Now is the time, before the next budget when it looks as though we will have a great availability of resources, to give the secondary schools a chance and to give them the opportunity to have more teachers.

We have gone backward in this regard. Originally we had a scheme laid down that provided for one recognised teacher to every 15 registered pupils but this has become one in 20. I seek to restore the original ratio and leave the secondary and vocational schools to develop themselves. They have the plans, the ideas and, above all, the confidence of the parents and the teachers.

I hope we will not have any more sorry spectacles such as we had in Ardee, in Cashel and other places when there were salesmen trying to sell the community schools idea to the local group. They were rejected unanimously but this did not stop them. Their idea of democracy is that the local people do not matter.

Some towns and localities are looking for community schools.

Yes, where they have no other facilities and that is all right.

Senator Killilea and myself were at a meeting a week ago at which they were looking for a community school.

A community school is a good school.

On a point of order, is the Senator saying now that we should scrap the transport of the children to the centres and have private transport and/or have more teachers? It is easy to get back to the ratio of 15 to one when you would have no scholars.

That is not a point of order——

The Senator knows as much about rural Ireland as a dog about his father.

I was born and bred in rural Ireland.

It is not a point of order. The Senator might perhaps stick to his speech.

I said that the escalating costs on transport are obviously wide and I pointed out that much of this work could have been done in the past through car pools.

What about insurance?

I suggest that we could arrange for an increasing use of car pools in some of those areas. When we have more resources available let us give teachers rather than bus drivers. That would be the best recipe for the development of our educational system.

There is an impression that the community school idea has been imposed on us by the World Bank. I know the shouts of horror that will come from Senator Keery at such a suggestion and the World Bank will raise their hands in holy horror and say: "We never imposed our ideas on anybody." I accept that, but the sequel of events is that our Department knew what the World Bank would give money for. They would give money for schools that fitted a certain management pattern they had in mind such as nondenominational schools. We put up a proposal for a loan for schools that fitted into this pattern and we were given the money for them.

The World Bank have not imposed their views on education on us but we have accepted what they accept and we have made that our view solely to get a loan from the World Bank. I hope that we will try to break away from this and recognise that our system is suitable for a small country and that American education has little to offer us as a guideline. Surely we do not wish to import a concrete jungle here? It is recognised in America that the larger schools have problems that the efficiency experts who designed them never forecast and they are trying to get back to the smaller local school in many areas as the remedy for the grave disorders that the others have provoked.

Is the number of 250 pupils not sufficient for a community school?

I wish to refer to the HEA Report which was issued recently on university re-organisation. It is heartening to see they have built on the foundation of co-operation that was brought in through the NUI/TCD agreement reached two years ago. At last the question of university organisation has been approached on a basis of co-operation rather than of division or rank between the two Dublin institutions or, indeed, between all institutions. That is to be welcomed and the HEA are to be congratulated on their courage and realism in so drastically departing from the merger arrangement they had originally endorsed. Their decision now is a wise one and it augurs well for the future.

There are some parts of the HEA Report that I hope will be modified considerably in the discussions with, and in the submissions to the Government that are taking place at present. One of those deals with the position of the conjoint board as recommended for the two Dublin universities. Senator Jessop has dealt with that extensively and I re-echo most of what he has said. I was delighted to hear that the arrangement between the Dublin hospitals will be one between equals not having the St. James Hospital as would appear from the HEA Report placed on a pedestal above the Mater and St. Vincent's hospitals. There should be full co-ordination; the conjoint board should have the powers necessary to ensure co-ordination and the facilities should not be located predominantly in any one area. All should have their contribution to make to medical teaching in this city. That is as it should be and I hope it is a modification of the recommendation of the HEA Report that will find acceptance.

There are many powers recommended for the conjoint board that are misguided. It is almost placed in a supervisory role over all the activities, academic and otherwise, of the two Dublin universities. That is wrong because it is trying to impose a merger by another method. The problem is one of co-ordination and rationalisation of resources to do the best teaching job possible.

This is a national problem. I endorse the necessity for ensuring co-operation and rationalisation in the use of scarce resources. This has to be approached on a national level because it is just as indefensible to waste public money in Cork or Galway on duplication of what exists elsewhere as it is to waste it between the two Dublin colleges. The promotion of this objective should be the province of the Council of Irish Universities who are, in the academic sphere, a companion body to the HEA. In the earlier reports of the Commission on Higher Education their role was spelled out fully. I am a bit disappointed in the HEA approach because they have not given this body the role they should have given them. Admittedly it means that the HEA might have to share a bit of their own power but the HEA set up to be the watchdog on financial aspects and if they are wise they should be careful they do not become involved in the academic field. They will have reports from the academic bodies or the Council of Irish Universities, which will be the top academic body, and they will have to make decisions on whether the finances should be provided. However, they should not make academic judgments.

Transferring a whole province of this to the conjoint board of the Dublin area would militate very considerably against success in the country generally and would not encourage the type of co-operation between all institutions that is desirable. It would, more or less, set up a joint club in Dublin and the others would be left outside of it. That would bring us back to a situation where it would be "them" in Dublin and "us" down the country. I hope that situation will not arise. I hope that a national approach will be made and the rightful position of the CIU will be recognised.

The division in Dublin, as proposed here, into the pre-clinical medical schools and the joint medical schools, is a very workable and worthwhile division. The American idea of having the pre-clinical period recognised separately from the clinical period is useful. At the end of their pre-clinical period the students receive a degree, which is a B.Sc.Med., and they are then trained for many para-medical roles in hospital work and the selection to medical school is made from them.

One thing that worries me and worries many people very much at present is how best the selection can be made for medical schools. We all know that the medical profession is greatly sought after at present and the vast number of students entering universities are trying to get into the medical schools. To make a selection based on the leaving certificate is haphazard and can be quite fallacious. If you are trying to judge a future medical student who will be a success in the profession, it is very hard to say in what way you should judge him on his performance in the leaving certificate. Would you give double weight to mathematics, should he be a genius at mathematics? I do not think there is any necessary correlation there. Yet, if we are going to base selection on achievement in secondary school, we are forced to recognise and give special weight to honours in the various subjects and we are forced to give extra weight to mathematics due to the time that has to be spent at it.

That is the situation that prevails at present. I am not sure we are selecting the best future medical students by that approach. In fact, past experience has shown that many people who were relatively mediocre in secondary school became excellent doctors. They had something in their personality and in their approach to their fellow citizens that gave them the impetus to become first-class medical men.

In UCC we intend to move at least one step from that situation. We intend to make the selection at the end of the three medical years, after spending one year in common teaching with all other students. At least that will get away somewhat from the school factor. The very good school that can turn out the honours students can, obviously, get its students into medical school. We are going to make a selection at the end of one year.

It will be a fairer system but it still will not provide the answer to the problem. If we could go the whole way and have three years pre-clinical medicine finishing with a B.Sc.Med., and make our selection from those who have obtained that degree, we would be on much surer ground for selecting future medical men on a reasonable and equitable basis. In addition, those who do not succeed in getting into medical school would be very valuable to the medical health services. They would provide the para-medical personnel who are in such short supply at present. The Dublin arrangement as proposed leads naturally to that division and I hope we will work towards that goal in all our institutions.

The shortage of primary teachers was mentioned by Senator Andy O'Brien. That is an extraordinary state of affairs because we find, on the one hand, that we have a shortage of primary teachers and, on the other hand, we have a large number of unemployed arts graduates. Surely it should be possible to recruit many more primary teachers from among the arts graduates? There is a provision whereby, with one year's training they can qualify as primary teachers but if there is a scarcity at present—and I accept Senator O'Brien's assurance on that—it can be remedied very easily by recruiting such people. I would appeal to the Government to take some action in this regard.

I should like to say something about the financing of our universities. Over the last four or five years it has scarcely kept pace with inflation. Our resources are much less than those of comparable institutions in England, Belfast or in European countries. This has been recognised by all the commissions that have looked into the problems of our universities. The Commission on Higher Education made a special point of this and showed the gap that was there. They pointed out that the average staff/student ratio in the colleges at present is 20 to 1. In England it is about 8 to 1. A target of 12 to 1 was set by the Commission on Higher Education and they suggested that we should work towards it as quickly as possible. I hope the next budget may mark the first phase of that achievement. We have not got any help towards it until now and I ask the Government to make some effort to bridge this gap. The gap exists even between universities on this island— between those in the Republic and Queen's University, Belfast. The resources per student available in Queens are at least three times as much as we have: surely we should do something about bridging that gap?

I should like to refer to RTE. I view the rather dramatic removal of the board with very mixed feelings. On the one hand, like many others, we were in revolt about the misuse of television as a forum for propagating subversion and glorifying illegal organisations. On the other hand, the manner of removal, coupled with the very belligerent and indeed unimpressive speech made by the Minister concerned, caused many to fear that the end result might be that RTE would, in effect, become a Civil Service Department. People wondered would the new authority take as its directive that it should comply immediately with every Ministerial suggestion passed on to them. That would be highly undesirable, because it could mean the growth of the political influence of a particular Minister on television. The only way to establish a rational basis in this matter is, as was proposed in the debate in Seanad Éireann when the broadcasting authority was established in 1960, that there should be an Oireachtas Committee set up to act as an intermediary between the Minister's office and RTE or act in an advisory capacity to the Minister in his relations with RTE.

However, the authority was dismissed and RTE was put under notice because of their revolutionary views on politics which do not commend themselves to the vast majority of our people; views which aim at overthrowing, by violent methods the established order. Very well, but substitute for "politics", the word religion, and what does one find? It is regarded as perfectly legitimate for RTE to give full and attractive exposure to revolutionary views on religion, views which tend to undermine the established order in religion and which are abhorrent to the vast majority of the people. Yet, there is no Government ban on that.

Substitute for the word "politics" the word "morals" and one will find again that RTE can advocate revolutionary views on morals. They can do this in a most attractive way, which could be rightly judged as helping very considerably to advance and sell these views, RTE have a predilection for giving attractive views and forums on contraception, divorce, et cetera, yet nobody rushes to challenge them on such views.

These types of revolutionary views on religious standards and morals are just as detrimental to the welfare of this nation as the revolutionary views on politics that have been given on RTE by the IRA or other groups. What is especially to be deplored about the latter is that very often the programmes are completely unbalanced. If these are to be given, the programmes should be balanced. Does balancing mean that views expressed in a programme that are acceptable to one per cent of the people should carry 50 per cent of the weight on that programme? Weighing and balancing of particular views in a TV programme should be such as to coincide with the general views of the community as a whole. Yet, we find the shock tactic used. It has been used in "Outlook" in which a theologian from afar was given the full freedom of the air for 15 minutes to discuss views on marriage that were totally at variance with, and abhorrent to the citizens of the State. It completely undermined the standing of the institution and made most people ask if they were ever married at all.

This shock tactic succeeded in a way which would delight advertisers in arousing interest, and making people angry. During the ensuing weeks there were opportunities for presenting the opposite view on the subject, but to my mind that is not balancing a programme. A programme must be balanced at the time it goes out, not over a six-month period. What goes out in the first programmes sticks and the views cannot be caught up with afterwards. I ask the Minister to make serious representations to RTE regarding the total lack of balance in their programmes during recent times.

For once, the situation in agriculture is a happy one. During my period in the Seanad I have always advocated confidence in agriculture and the belief that it was the key to the successful development of this country. I am very happy to be here to see the success of agriculture. The total agricultural output has gone from £390 million last year to £470 million, an increase of £80 million, almost all in increased prices. This means that cow and heifer numbers are up by 10 per cent. People have kept from the slaughterhouse cows which would have been culled at other times, or got heifers in calf. We face the next year with a 10 per cent increase in our capacity for production. Provided this trend continues in the next few years, we shall quickly reach a position where our cattle numbers will double in the next eight or nine years. We shall then begin to tap some of the resources in our agriculture.

In our association with Europe we must impress on them the fact that they have had agricultural expansion since the war. They had favourable markets available. Denmark, Holland and England have expanded their agriculture since 1945 at the rate of 4 per cent or 5 per cent per annum. The result is that in that 28 year period they have expanded their production by about 150 per cent. For every 100 units produced in 1945 they now produce 250, whereas we continued a stop-go policy with serious marketing difficulties and lack of imagination on the part of our Governments. Over that period we barely realised an increase of 1 per cent. The 100 we produced in 1945 would be about 125 now. We need to double our present rate before we could catch up on the expansion which has taken place in European agriculture since the war. This fact is important because it means that if there is any question of restriction on output—surplus dairy products creating marketing difficulties and not enough beef—resulting in efforts to switch large areas from dairying to beef, we must insist that the EEC be concerned with regional development and shown that our regional resources have not been developed on the European scale. The potential is there but the resources would need to be doubled before they would reach the same level as those of the European Community. If there is any restriction at any time in the future on expansion in dairying I hope we shall succeed in making our case clear. The solution for us would not be to switch any areas at present devoted to dairying over to beef— that is a much lower productivity enterprise—but to develop both areas, both beef and milk, equally.

The first problem in agriculture is manpower. There is a chronic scarcity of the type of manpower needed in modern agriculture. We have always spoken of the flight from the land, 10,000 per annum, but that flight has been in coffins. It has meant that those who died have not been replaced. We cannot decrease the numbers further if we are to expand the potential of production. The number of our workers per 1,000 acres is significantly lower than that of any other country of the EEC at present.

I am not wrong.

You are. We have nearly the highest.

No, significantly less——

Italy is next highest to us.

The Senator is confusing the percentage of the population on the land, a totally different matter, with the number of workers on every 1,000 acres.

The percentage of the working population employed on the land.

Yes, I accept we have the greatest number of people working on the land. England has the lowest. Is England in some appalling state because it has so few on the land? If the EEC means anything it means that it is the equilibrium of the region as a whole which matters. Where we supply so much to the British market, it is by and large the population and its distribution in the two islands which matters. The two taken together have quite a small percentage in agriculture. Nobody can contend that, compared with 1,000 acres in Denmark, the same production can be got from 1,000 acres here unless there are comparable resources of finance, education and manpower available. There may be finance but we can put a question mark opposite education. However, we are improving in agricultural education. If we are to hold our own, the third factor, which is the number of workers per 1,000 acres, we must require more than the Danes. Two or three years ago, the figures were significantly less.

There is a great opportunity at present for employment in agriculture at proper wages. Throughout the country, wages in agriculture, especially in dairying areas, are significantly higher than wages in comparable positions in the local industries. Wages will increase even more. It is not uncommon for workers in the dairying industry to receive £30 or £40 a week. These are young people aged 21 or 22 years who are prepared to do a responsible job. It is equally as responsible as driving a car or working as a motor mechanic. These openings are there and unfortunately we have not enough people to fill them.

I call for a complete reappraisal of the Farm Apprenticeship Board. In the 1950's I had the pleasure of working with General Costello, Dr. Kennedy, Mr. Maher of the Farmers Association and Macra na Feirme on ideas for the development of the farm apprenticeship scheme at that stage. The scheme, as we drafted it, was one with real potential. It was concerned with all workers on the land. We were as keen to encourage the young lad of 15 years working on a farm to attend for a period in a local technical school as we were to persuade young men to attend an agricultural college. We envisaged education as covering the whole area. What did we get? A mouse came forth as a farm apprenticeship scheme. It turned out between 30 and 35 trained apprentices each year.

It is all right but let us treat it now as the pilot scheme that it was. As a pilot scheme it was a success. Turning out 35 trained apprentices a year is of no consequence today. We need 50 times that number of trained apprentices. The real attraction of modern agriculture is that the main training required is much the same as that of a skilled mechanic. It requires the ability to deal with machinery, and the ability to comply with direction whether on hygiene in the milking parlour or elsewhere. Ability to do temporary repairs on machinery is needed. People who are at present engaged in garage work with their special training would be highly adaptable to modern farm conditions and could find very worthwhile openings.

This brings me to the position of the agricultural schools. That whole area needs to be looked at and completely revolutionised. The agricultural schools are not large enough to cater for the numbers required. Those who went to farm schools have done well in association with the technical schools. We need to expand our whole thinking in this regard and extend the scheme we have available.

I should like now to touch on something I have stressed here many times in the past but which met with little response and that is the necessity for relief farm services from local co-ops. A local co-op has a number of milking units and a number of silage or other units. When a farmer wishes to take a day off or a holiday, or is sick this service should be available to him. With greater prosperity in agriculture, now is the opportune time for this. I would urge the co-ops to give the matter serious thought. It offers careers to young men at a time when we are seeking openings for employment. It also offers something which the farming community value now more than money and that is leisure. They are prepared to pay and they should be made to pay for this service. From the point of view of employment this is equally as important as any large factories we help to set up.

Finally, I should like to mention the co-op movement as a whole. It is a pity that we did not overhaul this before we entered the EEC. The IAOS has never had sufficient power or teeth to do the job that a central organisation should do. I do not know if it is too late now to give them that power: it is badly needed. Co-ops should be encouraged to use some type of central selection scheme in recruiting their managers and sub-managers. In many cases there is still too much pulling and hauling of the local committee with no concern for the real issue which is the recruitment of the best man for the job.

It is pleasing to note that the various writers on the economy all seem quite optimistic about the future. The national wages agreement has been quite successful. It has obviated long periods of strikes which we had some years ago. All those concerned in formulating the national wages agreement are to be congratulated on its success. The forecast for next year is that, while we still have inflation, it is expected that it will moderate. Now that the jump in farm prices has occurred it is hoped that the economy will get on to an even keel. It has also been forecast that we may expect a growth rate of about 5 per cent. This would be quite good and can be attained: we might even do a little better.

The IDA appear to be promoting new industries quite successfully. We have been told that 11,000 new jobs will be created per annum. That is, of course, offset by redundancies. All this is very well until we come to the final problem which is that we can expect no significant decrease in the number of unemployed. Surely we should take action on that as a top priority? The IDA are doing their best but the effects will not be felt for a few years. There is a great deal of money circulating and the Minister should be able to mop up some of it next month. That money could be used to provide employment for people. That would be a pledge of our faith in the future. We believe there is a future for the country and now is the time to give an earnest of it by using money to provide employment.

Our industries have to make many changes in order to face competition. There is the question of retraining. We could have a scheme for retraining an additional 4,000 of our 400,000 industrial workers. This would bring 4,000 new people into those industries. There is a chronic shortage of skilled technicians, tradesmen, service staffs, and so on, in the service industries. The standard of service provided by big bodies such as the ESB leaves a great deal to be desired. The employees show a lack of knowledge and training for the tasks involved. A certain percentage of those should be sent up for retraining, thereby opening the way for more recruits.

If we have confidence in the future we could make it easier for the older workers, who find retraining difficult, to retire earlier. After retirement they could make positive contributions both on a community service basis and on local amenities development, and so on. We must make funds available for these projects.

The difference between keeping 10,000 on the unemployment register and paying the usual allowances and putting them into one of the schemes I have suggested is something we can afford at this juncture. This would set the tone and give confidence of the country in facing the future. So long as the unemployment indicator stands where it is the ordinary people will not have confidence in talk about growth rates and the like.

Emigration has dropped almost to nil due to unattractive conditions in England so the fact that the numbers on the unemployment register have not gone up may be an achievement. I ask for a more positive contribution towards setting a target in the next budget by deliberately reducing the number on the unemployment register by a significant figure. I suggest a minimum target of 10,000. I should like the Minister when replying to estimate what such a target reduction would cost. The jobs I mentioned could be created overnight.

Spending on amenity development does not take long periods of planning. I appeal to the Minister to make this the decade of co-operation with all groups within the country. His aim should be to ensure that, at the end of the decade, we will be far less bureaucratic than we are today and will have managed to get the Civil Service more responsible to the legitimate views of our organisation and have evolved a twentieth century role for the Houses of the Oireachtas rather than the present eighteenth century role in which we sit and groan while some people talk.

This motion on the Appropriation Act gives Senators an opportunity of reviewing the events of the year. I was shocked by the attack and criticism made by Senator Kelly on the Taoiseach and the Government on their attitude towards the North. Senator Kelly appreciates the popularity the Taoiseach enjoys here and in many foreign countries. He adopts the attitude "if you throw enough muck some of it is bound to stick".

By his tirade Senator Kelly has enhanced the stature of the Taoiseach and reduced his own somewhat. He has attacked the published speeches. He even imagines himself as a member of the Unionist Party. The speech he delivered could well have been delivered by Mr. Craig, Mr. Faulkner or Mr. Taylor. It was a first-class Unionist speech. He would have to stretch his imagination very far, and it would not be possible for Senator Ó Maoláin to stretch his imagination so far as to imagine he was a Unionist, as Senator Kelly suggested to him on a few occasions. The respect which Senator Kelly has for the Taoiseach has been well illustrated by his speech because he called him "Taoiseach" on only one occasion and "Mr. Lynch" and "Deputy Lynch" on several occasions. He should have been told that the proper title was "Taoiseach" and not "Mr." or "Deputy".

He does not realise that the history of the Border originally started at the acceptance of the Treaty in 1920. We can throw the blame for all these killings at the feet of the people who accepted that Treaty and those who made the Border possible and the people who turned the guns on the people who opposed it in the Four Courts in June, 1922. It was at the behest of Lloyd George that the British guns were turned on them.

When the Fianna Fáil party were founded in 1926, one of the main arguments of the founders was that there would be no peace in this country until the Border was abolished. It was forced on us by the British Government and accepted by those who signed the Treaty. It is now up to the British Government to say that they are going to get rid of it either in the long or short term.

If the Fine Gael Party think now that the Taoiseach, as leader of the Fianna Fáil Party, will sit down at any conference table without discussing the abolition of the Border they are making a big mistake, no matter what Senator Kelly expects of him. The abolition of the Border has always been the ideal of the Fianna Fáil Party and our present Taoiseach is carrying on that ideal. I do not believe he will take part in any conference unless the unity of Ireland is one of the main points for discussion. If he did he would not be living up to the ideals of the founders of Fianna Fáil or of the Fianna Fáil Party.

Senator Kelly is not in the House and I do not want to say anything about him when he is not present. The policy of the Fianna Fáil Party that Senator Kelly objected to has been accepted by the people of Ireland for practically 42 years, with the exception of two short periods when a Government took office that formulated a policy after the general election on each occasion. Both Governments broke up in a short time because of bargaining for power and ministerial positions. It is no secret that at the formation of the last inter-Party Government, when Mr. Costello went to the President with one Ministry to fill, he could not form a Government. There would be no support from Clann na Talmhan unless Joe Blowick got Lands. That was the reason why Mr. Costello had to go to the President with a second list of names to have his Government sanctioned. I do not think that this meeting today will bring any better fruit than past coalitions have brought to the country.

The Senator's party had a lot of meetings and they did not do them any good. They had not so much respect for the people a couple of years ago.

The Chair must intervene at this stage. This discussion is going slightly off the rails and the sooner we get back on the rails the better for everybody. Senators should be aware of the fact that the matters they speak on must be related to the items in the Appropriation Bill, 1972. As long as their speeches relate in a relevant way to the items here they are in order but, if they move on to areas other than those, including historical perspective and so on, they will go out of order. Senator Garrett to continue.

I do not intend to delay much longer on Senator Kelly's speech except to refer to the fact that he criticised the Taoiseach for his speech in Paris last October when he said that the Republic of Ireland Bill, 1949, would have to be reconsidered. The Ireland Act, as was made clear by the Prime Minister of the Labour Government in Britain, was the sequel to a very important announcement made at a meeting of the Law Society in Ottawa by the then Taoiseach when he declared a Republic for the Twenty-six Counties. There are many people who find it difficult to believe that the then Taoiseach, and Mr. Dillon, and various other people in that Cabinet could go through the loop in Blue Shirts and come out at the other side in a green shirt.

The Chair must intervene again. These matters are not relevant to this motion. I am sure the Senator will appreciate that and get back to the relevant points as soon as possible.

The policy of this Government and their party is that they will not enter discussions until such time as the unity of Ireland is a point for discussion. In reply to Senator Kelly's criticisms of that policy and his criticisms of the Taoiseach's speech in Paris last October, it is stated in the Republic of Ireland Act, 1949, that the Six Counties will stay within the United Kingdom unless they willingly opt out themselves. I think the plebiscite to be held in the North will be a complete waste of time. The result of that plebiscite is already known and, if there was a plebiscite held here on the same day, the result of it would be known beforehand. Neither plebiscite would have any significance. I will not comment on the rest of Senator Kelly's speech.

When the Land Commission take over a farm with a dwellinghouse on it and let it on the 11-month system the house deteriorates. When the farm is finally divided, the people who get the land usually have houses of their own and the house deteriorates still further. Because of the shortage of houses, that should not be allowed to happen. When the Land Commission take over a vacant house and land, if they have no immediate way of disposing of them to an allottee, they should come to some agreement with the local authority, and give them an opportunity of rehousing itinerants or other people badly in need of housing in the area. I would like to see some liaison between them to enable that to be done.

I am sure everybody in the West of Ireland, especially public representatives and members of development associations, are alive to the difficulty of attracting industries to such places as Ballina, Belmullet or other parts of Mayo because of the cost of transporting the finished materials to the Dublin port. Recently I was at a dinner given by a local factory and the director told us that the cost of transport from Ballina to Dublin for export products for the year was over £70,000. That is a fantastic sum when we take the net profit into account and something should be done to alleviate this hardship on small industrialists.

Goods trains pulling into Ballina, Foxford, Claremorris and other places in the West usually arrive with each wagon loaded to the hilt. They usually return empty. If we allocated one free train a week—it costs the same amount to run them when loaded as it does when empty—to Ballina, Claremorris, Foxford, Castlebar and other areas in the West to transport their exportable materials to Dublin that would be one way of solving the present problem. We are finding it difficult, owing to transport costs, to entice industrialists to set up business in the West and unless we do something about the matter quickly the population will leave that part of Ireland.

It was observed in the last census that our part of Ireland suffered more severely from emigration than any other county, although the numbers who emigrated were considerably down on the previous census period. We are thankful to the Government and the IDA for announcing last week that a factory, giving employment to 300 people in Ballina, will be established soon. But there are other areas in the West where we would like to see factories established, employment provided and emigration stopped completely. One way of doing that would be by subsidising the transport costs of goods and thereby attract industrialists to the area.

In the field of social welfare I should like to refer to people in casual employment. Last year when their employment ceased they applied for unemployment benefit and readily received it. This year, under the same terms of employment, they were told at the termination of their employment that they were not entitled to unemployment benefit. I made inquiries and was told that some appeals were pending and in other cases no decision had yet been reached. I should like the relevant Minister to give a ruling in this case. Those men have paid for their stamps along with their employer yet they get no benefit whatsoever when their employment ceases. If they are not entitled to any benefit because their stamps are not sufficient are they not entitled to get their money back for the stamps they have acquired? What are they entitled to? They see no sense whatsoever in paying insurance against unemployment if they do not get benefit when they become unemployed. If they are not entitled to any benefit the money they paid for the stamps should be refunded to them.

I am sorry Senator O'Brien has left. In speaking about agriculture, Senator Crinion said that he would forecast that there would be ten million cattle in the country in a few years time. The idea occurred to me that James Dillon would have enjoyed hearing a Senator from that side of the House speak with anxiety about the cattle situation. It is a good conversion and I welcome it even though it may be late. I remember the time when people were encouraged to slaughter calves and Senator Crinion probably remembers it too.

That is very well read.

Very well read. That is quite correct without a doubt. I have a little bit of education and I can read. What was the cause of slaughtering the calves at that time? It was during the economic war when the Fianna Fáil Government were trying to retain the £10 million land annuities, privately agreed to between the Cumann na nGaedhael Government and the British Government years before that, and when they were fighting to get back the ports still under the control of the British naval forces.

Is this from the Government Information Bureau?

No, my memory is fairly good. I was alive and kicking at that time. Now, under the beef incentive bonus scheme, I am sure Mr. Dillon is smiling broadly at the increase in the number of cattle in Ireland at the present time. With regard to the beef incentive bonus scheme, I do not think the small farmers in the West of Ireland are getting their fair share of this scheme in comparison with the larger farmers in the midlands and on the eastern coast. Before a farmer becomes entitled to a grant under the beef incentive bonus scheme he must have three cows. The first two cows are not entitled to any grant. We have discussed this problem very often in committees of agriculture and we have a resolution before the Department of Agriculture which would give better benefits to the small farmers in the western counties.

Our scheme provides that a farmer has to have three cows to qualify under the scheme but the first cow is eligible for £20, the second £19 and the third £18. We have brought that scheme further, on a sliding scale, where a farmer with a herd of cows will receive £20 for the first cow, £19 for the second, £18 for the third, £17 for the fourth, £16 for the fifth and any cows over five in number will be eligible for £16 up to a maximum of 25 cows. That would be of some benefit to the small farmers. It would not be subsidising the farmers with large herds in the south, midlands and in the eastern counties to the detriment of the smaller farmers in the West of Ireland with six or seven cows. We would like to have some scheme like that introduced. We have recommended it to the Department and it may eventually see the light.

I should like to thank the Department of Agriculture for allocating six new agricultural instructors to Mayo. We, in Mayo, have the largest number of applications of any county in Ireland for the small farm incentive bonus scheme. With the small number of agricultural instructors we had we were not able to cope with the number of applications we were receiving. In some areas we get from eight to ten applications a day and we asked the Department to sanction 12 extra agricultural instructors. They have sanctioned six and we thank them for that, but we hope, before the year is out, that we will get sanction for the other six so that we can keep pace with the volume of applications under the scheme.

I have not a lot to say about education but I notice that during the past few years the number of apprentices going into trades has dropped by more than 3,000. If this trend continues as a result of our present educational system, we shall run short of technicians. A boy who passes his leaving certificate examination can get a well-paid job but a young apprentice must serve five years at a very low rate of pay. This is a very poor enticement to a young man to enter a trade. I suggest to the trade unions or those concerned with industry that the term of apprenticeship should be reduced to four years. A fund should be set up which would be contributed to by employers, trade unions and perhaps the Government, which would aid the apprentices by enabling them to earn a fixed wage that would bring them into line with those studying for academic careers. In that way we might induce more young people to enter trades and so there would be no danger of a scarcity of technicians in the coming years. If the present trend continues, with the falling-off of apprentices in many trades, we will have no technicians to work in industrial fields.

I take this opportunity of congratulating you, a Chathaoirleach, on your election to the Chair and I wish you luck and success in the fulfilment of your duties in that capacity.

I dteannta na Seanadóirí eile ba mhaith liomsa traoslú duit as ucht do thoghadh mar Chathaoirleach ar an Seanad. Ní chuirfidh mé aon mhoill ar an Seanad. Bhí a lán pointí breacaithe síos agam anseo ach ní dhéanfaidh mé tagairt ach do thrí nó do cheithre príomh-phointí an babhta seo. Ceapaim go bhfuil siad cuíosach tábhachtach.

I should like to congratulate the Minister and the Government on the introduction of the principle of parity of pensions in the last budget. It was based on the logic that if people in service should have their salaries increased, because of rising costs and money depreciation and to help them enjoy increased prosperity, it was equally logical to say that people who are now out of the service should have their pensions based on current salaries.

When the Minister introduced this principle it was received with tremendous joy by those who had given service to the State: people in the public service, people who had been in the Garda Síochána, members of the Army, teachers, civil servants, and so on. They felt they were no longer treated as chattels and just put aside when their service had come to an end, and that there was no further appreciation of the service they had given to the community and the giving of their personality and skill.

Speaking to a number of representatives of organisations dealing with retired public servants during the last few weeks, I was informed that there was a certain amount of alarm abroad that the principle might be viewed in a budgetary manner at each successive budget. I would appeal to the Minister to continue the principle, if at all possible. I know that he is convinced of the validity of the principle. I heard him speak on the radio after he had introduced the last budget and he certainly brought joy to a large number of people when he said that he accepted the principle, and that at last it gave him pleasure to introduce it.

I should like to refer to another matter which is of great concern to a great many people. That is the question of income tax allowances about which many are very much disturbed. They consider that while salaries have increased significantly, there has been no great increase in the allowances made in respect of income taxation. However, I shall not weary the Minister because I have been on deputations to the Minister before in this regard and he knows my views on it. I would appeal to him to consider the level of allowances.

The other two matters to which I should like to refer are educational affairs. I should like to draw the attention of the Seanad to what must be considered as educational priority areas in certain parts of the country. Fortunately, they are very few. The problem is an important one for a very large number of children. At the same time it is one that can be tackled easily. Fortunately, we are not in the same position as some of the large cities in Britain and the United States, where there are tremendous community problems arising from the fact that children have to live in certain environments. This is not the fault of the children.

When one compares the child living in one of these educational priority areas, or what should be an educational priority area, it will be seen that the child living in a very grim environment will have the lamp-post as his tree, the railing as his hedgerow, the sidewalk as his mountain path and the tarmacadammed road as his green field. This is the atmosphere in which he has to live and in which he is reared. Something should be done to offset this environment by having a special type of school with preferential staffing ratios. There should be more teachers per group of pupils than in the ordinary school. It is important that these children should get individual attention and they cannot get individual attention if they are in the same large classes as in some of the ordinary schools. If a child is handicapped, this environment throws further handicaps upon him. I would appeal to the Minister to discuss this with his colleague, the Minister for Education. There should be a particular type of school building with an outstanding design and decor to offset the grimness of the child's surroundings. I would also recommend that there be a first-class gymnasium. These children do not have much opportunity of physical exercise on the streets and physical education is far more important to them than to the ordinary pupils. If possible a swimming-pool might also be considered for a school in such an environment as I have described.

Finally, I should like to refer to the training of teachers. The teaching profession, particularly in national schools, would like to see the introduction of a three-year course with a university degree as the terminal qualification. If it is thought necessary that pharmacists, doctors, lawyers, dentists, and now Army cadets, should be trained within the context of the university, no one should deny that teachers should also be within the university milieu. The original university was for the purpose of training teachers. It is only centuries later that the faculties of law and medicine were introduced. I would appeal to the Minister to examine this matter also, that is, the introduction of the three-year course with the university as the validating authority for the qualification.

I will endeavour to be as brief as possible. I should like to refer to the role the Seanad has played in the last year. This is the most appropriate time to discuss our activities. It is regrettable that at a time when we are reviewing progress for the year that the potential of this House has not been exploited to the full, in discussing legislation. Far too often we have been in the position, when the Dáil has been discussing Estimates and matters of a non-legislative nature for long periods, of having no work before us while at the same time 20 or 30 motions—some of them of considerable national importance—languished on our Order Paper. The Seanad, in that regard, very often reminds me of a Government-owned sports arena where the various teams regularly turn up but the people who for the time being control the football do not put it into the centre of the field. Consequently the whole business of discussing these motions cannot get under way.

I should like to give one example. There is a motion standing in the names of Senator Reynolds and myself in relation to the White Paper on local government reorganisation. That motion has been on the Order Paper for almost 18 months. It is almost a year ago since the Minister sought observations from the general public and interested parties on the White Paper. We were told recently in the national Press that legislation is currently being drawn up as a result of the White Paper and the discussions which ensued. Yet one of the two Houses of the Oireachtas, which expressed in writing its anxiety to discuss the White Paper and to place its views on record, has not been allowed an opportunity to do so, despite repeated requests made on the Order of Business. There probably were genuine attempts made by the Leader of the House to have members of the Government here to enable discussions on this and other motions to get under way. Even bearing in mind the length of time that that motion has been on the Order Paper, it is only sixth on the list of motions on the Order Paper at present. Therefore, five others are of longer standing. The first of those reads:

That Seanad Éireann notes the Report of the Public Services Organisation Review Group.

The second reads:

That Seanad Éireann notes the Buchanan Report on Regional Development in Ireland.

I would have thought that any Government would have been interested to hear the views of the second House of the Oireachtas in relation to those two important matters.

The time is long overdue for a reappraisal to be made, not just of the role of the Seanad or Dáil in isolation, but of the role of both of the Houses of the Oireachtas, which so often seem to operate in isolation but which might be more readily expected to act in concert. Many Senators would agree that here and in the Dáil one of the most time-consuming discussions is the Committee Stage of any Bill. Far greater use could be made of a system, something on the American line, which would allow select committees, perhaps composed of Members of both Houses of the Oireachtas, to act as a committee screening-stage on legislation prior to its being introduced at Second Stage to either the Dáil or the Seanad. An intelligent and imaginative system worked out in that way would mean that the discussion on legislation which would eventually ensue in each of the Houses would be shorter, better informed, more enlightening and would lead to the production of better forms of legislation.

The Standing Orders and format of business in this House resemble the conduct of the Upper House in Britain. I am not saying this is wrong. It just happens to be the system. If it is accepted that this system should continue—which is something I do not accept—we ought to take into consideration the fact that there exists in the House of Lords a curtailed form of question time. With the Seanad meeting, as it does occasionally, to discuss one or two short Bills which must be an expensive and time-consuming exercise for the Ministers and staff of the House, we might usefully introduce a form of question-and-answer-time which might be confined to matters of national importance rather than of a local, personal or particular interest.

Is this matter in order under a discussion of the Appropriation Act? Suggestions for amending the Standing Orders of this House might be more profitably dealt with at another institution related to this House. They do not arise under the Bill. Senator Boland is again demonstrating that talk is cheap. A report on these matters is published to-day. If he had wished to make a genuine contribution to Oireachtas reform he could have submitted a memorandum to that Committee as he had an opportunity of doing. Every Member of the Fine Gael Oireachtas Party neglected that opportunity. Yet again they demonstrate that they are not sincere.

On a point of order is it not the position that one may speak only once on the Appropriation Act? What Senator Boland is saying is at least as relevant as a discussion as to my whereabouts which came from Senator Keery.

A good deal more relevant.

A number of points have been made by way of interjection. I take it that Senator Boland was making a passing comparison and reference. I should like to know that he would proceed with his speech.

I am not making any passing comparison or reference. I am speaking about the expenditure under the various heads set out in the Appropriation Act and about the expenditure on the Houses of the Oireachtas during that time. I am pointing out how that money might have been better spent for more fruitful ends. I submit, respectfully, a Chathaoirleach, that my contribution in that regard bears direct relevance to the moneys which have been spent and is far more appropriate, if perhaps less entertaining, than the lengthy submission of Senator Garrett, which ran from the founding days of the Fianna Fáil Party through the Economic War, the slitting of the calves throats, the announcement of the establishment of a Republic for the Twenty-six Counties before the Law Society in Ottawa, et cetera, et cetera, et saecula saeculorum. If that bore any relevance to the Appropriation Act which we are supposed to be discussing, what I have been saying for the last ten minutes is at least as appropriate.

It seems to me that the moneys expended on the Seanad which are covered by the Appropriation Act might have been better spent had there been some type of question time of a national nature which would have allowed the Members of this House, some of whom have talent which they do not always get an opportunity to display, to place relevant questions, especially in the 12 months which have just elapsed, in view of the situation within our island and our accession to the European Community. On those two headings alone it would seem that a very useful and productive form of question and answer dialogue could have been engaged in by this House.

In referring to our accession to the European Community may I also say, and this is something that we as a nation and as public representatives are going to have to be very careful about, there seems to be a fatalistic impression among the public that we no longer have control of our own destiny. Many others who do not hold that viewpoint seem to believe, for some equally strange reason, that because we have become a full member of the greater European Community everything is going to come right and all problems will be solved automatically.

In all seriousness I would say there is an obligation on the Government of the day to make it abundantly clear that neither of these attitudes of mind is correct and that either of them could be very harmful to the future prosperity or progress of this country. While in the last 12 months there was a need on the part of those in public life to try to explain to our people what the EEC was all about, equally so is there now an obligation upon us and especially upon those in Government to explain to the Irish people that the Community will not solve our problems for us. Neither will the Community create problems for us which we cannot solve. Basically our prosperity still depends on how much effort we are prepared to put into the job of improving our way of life. Those of us in public life must go out of our way to explain this.

Because of the fact that this is the beginning of our period as members of the Community I imagine the Minister, who has sat here so patiently for the past few days listening to this wide-ranging debate must be greatly tempted—especially in this year when several excursions to the polls may be expected—to introduce a budget which would in the short term be very acceptable and politically advantageous. I would seriously suggest that, if there was any year in particular when it would be necessary that every step should be taken to ensure that the rate of inflation might be kept as low as possible and that any flare in the economy should be dampened as quickly as possible, it would be this year.

There was, and I am sure the Minister has already read some of the papers involved, the quite interesting report this week of the Confederation of Irish Industries conference where we had the conflicting viewpoints of two eminent economists on the role which Government policy over the last few years has played in stimulating or dampening inflation. It was the view of Professor Gibson of the University of Coleraine that the Government's fiscal and economic policy over the last few years had been a direct contributory factor in stimulating inflation and in setting off the vicious spiral of wages chasing prices, chasing wages, chasing cost of living rises, which we have had. While that gentleman holds some position of prominence as an academic economist, the other speaker at the conference who disagreed with him holds at least as prominent a position. Perhaps it was not so surprising that he disagreed with him as the other speaker was Professor Martin O'Donoghue who lectures in economics in Trinity College but who also happens to be the economic adviser to the Taoiseach. He, naturally enough, did not agree with Professor Gibson's analysis of the Government's role.

When we have a situation where two such prominent economists disagree so violently on whether the Government have helped to curb inflation it is one which would be well worth examining very closely and carefully. In this our first year in the Community it is worth bearing in mind that the introduction of a budget or any Governmental economic policy which in any way helps to stimulate inflation would be a step which in the long term could be very economically damaging to this country.

In that regard I would refer the House to the OECD Observer, issue No. 61 of December, 1972, which gives a breakdown of the taxation profiles of OECD member countries. It is interesting to note that of the OECD member countries they state that Iceland, Ireland, Turkey and Greece rely most heavily on taxes on goods and services, mainly consumption taxes. They give a breakdown of the percentages of taxation which are derived from three products. In each of the three, perhaps not surprisingly to anybody who smokes, takes a drink or drives a motor car, Ireland heads the list. We derive 13.6 per cent of our tax from revenue on tobacco, 12.4 per cent from revenue on liquor and 10.1 per cent from revenue on hydrocarbon oil. Of the 20 OECD member countries in each of these three fields we are the country that derives the highest percentage of our taxation from those three items. I am not criticising this or saying that it is a particularly bad thing. It depends on one's approach to the method of financing one's budget and one's priorities in this regard. However, those figures cannot hearten very much the gentlemen of Bord Fáilte.

I should like to conclude by pointing out in relation to taxation at the percentage of gross national product in the OECD countries, of the 23 Ireland would come seventh in the field of tax ratio to gross national product having a ratio of 27.4.

I was interested to hear Senator Brosnahan congratulate the Minister on his announcement of being committed to the idea of pension parity. There have been pleas made to the Minister here and in other places over the last few years by the association of widows of civil servants who hold strongly, and with a great amount of justification, that they too are entitled to parity. While they now receive 50 per cent of the equivalent pension which their husbands might have received, as an ex gratia payment, they ought to be brought up to the 100 per cent level.

The second most important internal issue after inflation and allied to it is the rise in prices. One of our national newspapers devotes a page every day to investigating the prices charged in various retail establishments and the reasons and justification for price increases and price differences between one establishment and another. In that regard the recently established National Prices Commission have been doing an admirable job and deserve our congratulations for the reports they have published in this difficult field although it might be said that they arrived on the scene several years too late. In some respects the extent of their activities might have been made broader than they actually are.

Business suspended at 6.5 p.m. and resumed at 7 p.m.

When I was speaking before the adjournment, and when everybody was endeavouring to complete the business as expeditiously as possible, Senator Keery saw fit to interrupt me at length to point out that he thought the House should know he, in his wisdom, did not agree with my point of view and that a report had to-day been published in relation to procedures in the Houses of Parliament. He referred to my genuinely held belief as a sham and he alleged that the Fine Gael Members of the Seanad made no submissions to the committee in question.

During the break I had an opportunity to discover that the report was, indeed, published today and on inquiring amongst colleagues in my party in the Seanad I discovered that none of us received a copy of that report. The first verification I had of its existence was when I read about it in the evening newspaper. However, presumably Senator Keery did receive some prior knowledge that the report was being published and being an exception as far as this side of the House is concerned, perhaps he received a copy of the report. I do not blame the Government for helping Senator Keery. He needs some help.

On a point of order which I think is important—

I hope this is a point of order.

It is a point of personal explanation which is important in this case. I received a copy of the report——

A point of order or a point of personal explanation?

A point of personal explanation is apparently what Senator Keery is making. Will Senator Boland give way to the Senator on this so that he can make the point?

No, Sir, not unless the Chair insists.

The Chair cannot insist on the Senator doing so but I thought he might.

No, Sir, I will not, and the next time perhaps we will all have some——

I should like the Senator to be as relevant as possible as far as the motion is concerned.

I would like to refer mainly to the activities of the Department of Local Government because in the several years that I have been a Member of this House the legislation in the field of local government has been—I think I may be excused for saying it—minimal and of a specialised nature. At no stage in the last three or four years have we had an opportunity of discussing in broad terms the activities of this very important Department nor have we had an opportunity of putting forward ideas as to how this operation might be improved. As I said before the adjournment, for a long time there has been a motion on the Order Paper in relation to the Local Government White Paper which we have not been afforded an opportunity of discussing. This, again, might be an appropriate time for looking at that vast Department. I mention particularly their vastness because it seems to me that if any Department at present are in need of an overhaul and a hiving off of some of their activities and, perhaps, a realigning of some of their functions with some of the more secondary functions of various other Departments of State, they are the Department of Local Government. In that regard I know that a number of years ago we were promised, or threatened with, a Department for Physical Planning. At that stage the Department were to be headed by a Member of the other House who is no longer a Member of the Government. As we all know, that Department failed to materialise despite repeated and concrete assurances that they were to be in existence in the very near future.

I was in the House this afternoon to listen to the entertaining contribution of Senator Garrett. I was asked during the adjournment why I did not refer in greater detail to it. I do not think there is any need, but I might just refer the House to the equivalent debate in Volume 67 of 4th December, 1969. Perhaps this will explain to the House why I do not consider there is any need to go into any detail on the contribution of Senator Garrett today because he finished his contribution, at column 413, of the Seanad Report of 4th December,1969, on the Appropriation Bill by saying:

Planning is another very sore item in the West of Ireland but I believe there is going to be a new Department of Planning set up and owing to the fact that I believe this will be in the very near future I think I will reserve my remarks about planning until such time as that happens.

Now we all know that Department are not there and his contribution of that day and its relevance today is a fair enough judgment on the sort of remarks that we got from Senator Garrett earlier this evening.

However, that does not alter the fact that there is a need for a separate Department to deal with physical planning and environmental matters. In that regard very close attention should be paid to the very worthwhile experiment which seems to be paying great dividends in many fields and on which they were engaged in England in the last year. I am talking about the creation of the Department of the Environment and the many fields of community living and local matters in which they have engaged up to this time.

I was speaking recently with an architect who is employed in that Department in London. I discovered that the Department of the Environment at the moment are not examining methods to improve the rate of local authority housing or to improve the number of the units of houses produced in Britain in any one year, but have, instead, a special team of architects and engineers who are engaged in a nation-wide examination in Britain of the type of dwellings being provided both in the public and private sector not alone from the point of view of the number of square feet which each dwelling is being given but of the general lay-out of each house in question, its design and the design of the estate or tower block.

Apparently there is a growing feeling in Britain that the standard of design in private and public mass-produced house building is of a much lower quality than it ought to be. In that regard it is interesting to reflect that in the last 18 months in this country there has been on the part of the Department of Local Government a deliberate attempt, through a scaling of the State grant for new houses in the private sector and through housing directives issued to local authorities, an attempt to reduce in size the type of house which a young family might be expected to buy or might be allocated by a local authority. Even with the introduction of such interesting projects as the gauranteed order scheme which has, to some extent, increased the output of local authority housing in the country, there was an insistence on the part of the Minister for Local Government that the local authorities must build to a square footage which he decided on and which they, in the main, certainly in the Dublin area, felt was too small. In the last two years we have seen a fall in the size of completed new houses both in the public and private sectors of at least 150 or 200 square feet as compared with the average size of semi-detached or terraced or small detached houses of two to three years ago.

There has been a substantial increase in the number of houses.

There was not a substantial increase in the number of houses attributable to the fact that the square footage of the dwelling unit was diminished. This was discussed here in passing previously. I do not believe that the reduction in the size of the house has contributed to an increase in the number of finished dwelling units in any one year. The Department of the Environment in Britain, who have had more experience in that field because of the different house types in the public and private sectors, are now initiating a nationwide study, not just into the size of houses but into their design and into the way they fit into their local community. This is becoming increasingly important in the development of this country and more especially in the developing metropolis here. There is a firm intention on the part of the Government and the local authorities concerned that three new towns, each approximately the size of Cork city, should be built to the west of Dublin, in Blanchardstown, Clondalkin and Tallaght. The groundwork on the first large housing estate has been done in Tallaght. Tallaght has been the experimental new town which, can be described as having failed because in Tallaght there are high density dwellings of a small total square footage packed into unattractive and geometrically designed layouts remote from basic shopping and ancillary social facilities, and are served by an inadequate and outmoded road system, a deficient public transport system and an overloaded and outmoded infrastructure.

In many respects I understand why that happened but that is not to say that it can be condoned or that it is the sort of development which we would be prepared to accept in any of our new growth centres for the future. It seems to me that the Department of Local Government, or any offshoot of that Department which might more readily be able to handle this, should be concerned with the orderly planning and development of new towns rather than providing the dwelling units and then endeavouring to provide the ancillary facilities at a later stage when the land and other services are not available and the new community, faced with the mortgage burdens and other financial pressures, are not prepared to fund them. It is an equally threatening problem that there should be a clear and definitive policy at the present time in relation to the development of arterial roads and motorways in this country. Several local authorities, and especially the local authorities in the Dublin area, were expecting a major policy statement from the Minister for Local Government before Christmas setting out how the Government envisaged the costly road structure, which was felt by both Dublin Corporation and Dublin County Council to be a necessary and integral part of any development of the metropolis over the next 20 years, would be paid for. So far no statement has been published.

An interesting and informative road transportation study has been produced by An Foras Forbartha in conjunction with the United Nations. The main idea arising from that is that there should be a motorway box, that is, a ring road running around the periphery of the existing city which would provide a link up—between Bray and the city through the western suburbs—with a motorway leading to the north. Nobody has had any serious discussions on this yet or outlined in any way how that single roadway is to be paid for.

Some of the junctions which would occur at intervals of approximately two miles on that great ring road are envisaged to cover 50 acres of land and be of four to five different intersecting levels and to cover a mass of concrete and pre-stressed girders. I would like to ask this House and the Government how that single road, or even one of those junctions, is to be paid for in the context of our economy today? In the development plan for Dublin city and county it is envisaged that one and one-third, or one and a half million people will live in Dublin by 1990 and that single roadway forms only one-twentieth of the road structure which the planners feel is vitally necessary if the whole of the metropolitan area is not to clog completely.

Unless there is a clear statement in this regard we will have to reconsider seriously the idea of the expansion of the metropolis. Unless we are prepared to consider important and overdue changes in the structure and format of the Planning and Development Act, 1963, we can forget the idea of planning and development in an orderly manner. There are many loopholes in that Act, which is inevitable in an Act of such magnitude because many of its sections were copied from part of the British Planning code without the backing up and ancillary pieces of legislation in Britain which form a part of the total code there. All of us have urged major renovations and overhaul of the 1963 Act.

With the amount of development that is taking place in the Dublin area, which is estimated in the planning offices in Dublin city and county to be a development of the order of over one-third of the development in the entire country — in the county of Dublin as opposed to the city — the failures and loopholes of the 1963 Act are becoming daily more apparent and glaringly more obvious.

If we want to see our city expand in a way of which we can be proud, and in a way of which our descendants can be proud, it is of urgent necessity that that Act be modified. In conjunction with that, there should be proper and adequate legislation introduced to control the indiscriminate abandonment of sites and dereliction of property which is a major problem in the metropolitan area, and proper controls should be introduced on the placement of and services provided for caravans and mobile homes.

It is a feature, admittedly not a nice feature, of modern urban life that every major conurbation has on its periphery, throughout the western world, a large conglomeration of caravans and mobile homes of one shape or another. In some countries the legislation and ordinances governing the areas in which those mobile homes may be placed, and the facilities which must be provided for them, are very good. In other countries such legislation is virtually non-existent. I am afraid this country falls into the latter category, but the problem is not at all as acute here as it is in more developed countries. I would urge that we should closely examine how that problem is being tackled in other European countries with a view to introducing adequate legislation here to ensure that those who live in such dwellings are properly catered for and that the community, as a whole, has a new aspect of living fitted into it that will not stick out like a sore thumb.

We have a great deal of knowledge available to us through our membership of the European Community in relation to the control of atmospheric and water pollution. We have a problem in relation to pollution in this country but it is not of the immensity which some people hysterically claim it to be. This word is very much an environmental catchword. It is a word on which it is very easy to obtain publicity. However, I would think that the atmospheric or water pollution in this country, in comparison with other developed countries, is not of the same magnitude and, consequently, we have a marvellous opportunity in the Department of Local Government to examine the codes which are in operation or are being introduced in other countries in the light of their bitter experience so as to tackle this problem before it becomes of the magnitude that it is elsewhere.

I referred earlier to the size of houses and the guaranteed order projects which have, to some extent, augmented the local authority housing output in the last year or two. In that regard I do not think I should pass away from that subject without mentioning the National Building Agency. I submit to the Minister that the activities of the National Building Agency should be examined in the closest possible way, because I do not believe they are, in many aspects, carrying out the job for which they were established or carrying out the job which they could very effectively do. Their involvement in the guaranteed order project has been, as far as the council of which I am a member is concerned, nothing more than a mandatory charge on my council of £140 for every local authority house we build under their project for which we received little or no co-operation and very often were met with obstinate silence and lack of co-operation in the development of the site and the provision of houses under those projects. That agency might more usefully consider the better design and the interesting innovation of new ideas in house designs generally.

While speaking on house designs and housing generally, the Minister and every public representative will be concerned with the great inflation in house prices over the past few years. Let me throw out to him and to the House for consideration the idea that the building societies and agencies which provide loan finance for houses generally are inclined to advance the loan not on the house property per se but more on the estimated length of the applicant's life and his ability to repay the loan.

In other countries, notably Canada, the loan on a new house under construction is granted very strictly on the estimated life span of the building in question rather than on the life span of its initial occupant or on his ability to repay it, so that instead of a 75 per cent loan of £4,000 being repaid over 35 years a person can get a 95 per cent loan of £4,800 or £5,000 repayable over 80 or 90 years. Of course, the initial applicant knows that he will not live to see the day when he will own his house but his deposit is reduced substantially and the repayment which he will be expected to make, in the initial years when his income may not be of a high order, is far less than it would be in this country. I would suggest that any alternative method such as this, and I consider it to be quite attractive, which provides a higher percentage of a new house price with a lower weekly repayment, as far as the borrower is concerned, should be examined very carefully and gone into in considerable detail.

I should not like to depart from the activities of the Department of Local Government without referring, in a passing way, to the White Paper on local government re-organisation. I use the expression "in a passing way" because I am still quite hopeful that the motion on the White Paper might at some stage be taken and discussed in this House before the legislation which emanates from it is brought in here for discussion. It would be wrong to depart from a general look at the Department of Local Government without expressing my firm conviction —the agreement I know exists amongst public representatives from various parties in the Dublin area— that the suggestion that the three authorities in the greater Dublin area should be merged under one major umbrella is one which does not meet with general acceptance from the majority of members of most parties.

If there is to be any reorganisation in the Dublin area—and reorganisation is very necessary—it should be in such a fashion as to provide, perhaps, in the present Dublin Corporation area six borough councils, each with its own mayor and elected members and, in the Dublin county area, a rural council operating in the area commonly known as Fingal, which embraces the suburban towns of Swords and Balbriggan, and the coastal towns of Rush and Skerries, the suburban growth areas of Malahide and Portmarnock, and the great rural hinterland surrounding Ballyboughal, Garristown and Oldtown. These will remain essentially rural in character because of the presence of Dublin Airport, and the restrictions on development because of the international requirements on noise levels.

A rural council could be feasible economically in that area and would be suitable. To the south, the activities of Dún Laoghaire Borough Corporation could be extended into the southern suburbs that are now being catered for by Dublin County Council, thereby narrowing the activities of two suburban groups which are very much at one in their outlooks and needs. At the same time, it would provide Dún Laoghaire Borough Corporation with a full corporation status which it has sought for years.

That would leave to the west of the city the area in which the three new developing towns are to be located, and would be the reason why this should be so important. In that area, running from Blanchardstown to Tallaght, it is vitally important that we must face up to the difficult task of creating a new type of local authority structure for this country, and that would be a development council. It should be a special council with special legislative powers to enable it to regulate in an orderly fashion the development of three major new cities, which are to be situated immediately contiguous to the present Dublin city.

As each one of those three areas became large enough to become a unit in its own right it should be hived off and given a town council of its own. That arises ultimately in 11 different regional councils in the Dublin area. It would appear to be far more democratic and more in the spirit of the idea of local government than the abolition of the existing three councils into the formation of one "jumbo" bureaucratic machine. Such machinery would endeavour to administer over one-third of the population of the whole country and, in my opinion, could no longer be referred to in any way as a local authority.

In conclusion, I should like to refer to two items which struck me in the course of last week. Earlier in the week I referred to the Confederation of Irish Industry Council at which various economists spoke about the inflationary trends in the economy. There was another contribution made which was of interest and which is worthy of bringing to the notice of the Seanad. That was the speech made by Mr. Michael Smurfit, deputy chairman of the Smurfit Group, in relation to educational training generally. He pointed out that our educational system at present was geared in such a way that two-thirds of our young people were receiving an academic training, while 75 per cent of them were ultimately ending up in technological type jobs. He mentioned that the Irish educational scene was in urgent need of review to bring it into line with what was the demand and where the jobs lay. It could also be suggested that there was an obligation on Irish industry to bring pressure to bear to ensure that the type of educational training that is needed should be made available. In the educational field this is something that merits consideration.

It would be churlish of me not to refer to the recent passing of the Social Welfare (Pay-Related Benefit) Bill, This is a topic on which I have spoken a number of times in this House and elsewhere. Therefore, I welcome the fact that the Minister has succeeded in passing the legislation. May I point out that, even on his own admission, he is about 18 months to two years behind his promised time scheduled in this House. However, it is very welcome and I hope that in the very near future it will become an all-encompassing Act embracing every member of the community, rather than the somewhat restricted legislation which has just been passed.

I leave with a thought for 1973 which is worthy of note. This is not merely because we have become members of the European Community, but because in our future thinking on social welfare and community care there ought to be an increasing interest on the part of those in government and, indeed, on the part of those in Opposition whose duty it is sometimes to stimulate those in government, either by providing ideas or occasionally by being annoying enough to make them introduce new ideas.

In relation to community care, we ought to improve our social welfare code. This should be done not merely in the strict monetary sense but the benefits which are afforded to the less affluent members of our society should be by way of special help from highly trained social workers, or by providing ancillary care in the homes of the recipients. This would be preferable to relying on occasional relatively small cash increases in payment, which too often can be swallowed up by inflation, or very often can be very badly spent by the recipient. The recipient may be the type of person who is most likely unable to spend the additional money in the most beneficial way. In other words, instead of giving an increased amount of money to our social welfare recipients, we should be transforming the increase into goods and services and supplying those goods and those social services ourselves in a proper educated and dovetailed community care system. We should consider such a system in the years to come.

On a point of order, while I appreciate Senator Boland did not wish to accept a point of explanation in the course of his speech, would the House now accept a point of explanation arising from his speech? He did suggest being involved in the improper circulation of a report before this House.

I think it is in order. It is in accordance with Standing Orders to allow provided that it is brief and not argumentative.

I received a copy of this report in advance of its general circulation to the House, simply because I was the only Member of the Oireachtas to give evidence to that commitee. The secretary, by way of normal courtesy at the time of its circulation, presented me with a copy of the report.

The House will appreciate that the nasty remark about my contribution being a sham is unfair in view of the fact that I, along with other Members of the House, did not have the privilege which Senator Keery had.

Saved by the Aire.

Chomh fada agus is cuimhin liom ins an méid a chuala mé, ní bhfuair an Seanadóir Boland an tuarascáil seo tríd an bpost, adúradh go raibh cur i gcéill ar siúl aige ach toisc nár thug sé fianaise don choiste cé go raibh go leor á labhairt anseo.

Ar aon nós, ba mhaith liom a rá go raibh an díospóireacht seo an-leathan, an-fhairsing mar is gnáthach agus, mar is gnáthach, bhí an-chuid pointí againn a bhaineann le hAirí eile, go h-áirithe leis an Aire Tionscail agus Tráchtála, an Aire Dlí agus Cirt, an Aire Gnóthaí Eachtrachta, an Aire Tailte, an Aire Sláinte, an Aire Leasa Shóisialaigh agus an Aire Oideachais.

Agus leis an Taoiseach.

Agus leis an Taoiseach dar ndóigh. Beidh mé ag deighleáil le sin ar ball.

Mar is gnáthach, ní thig liom deighleáil le gach pointe ach chomh fada agus a árdaíodh pointe a bhaineann le hAirí eile, is féidir liom a rá go ndéanfaimíd cinnte de go gcuirfear na pointí a árdaíodh faoi bhráid na n-Airí sin amach anseo.

This debate has ranged over the spheres of public expenditure and financial policies. It would be appropriate for me in replying to it to describe in some detail the budgetary policy followed during the current year. When the budget for this financial year was being prepared, the economy continued to experience a high rate of increase in prices. The balance of payments position, though somewhat weak, was improving. In addition, for the third year in succession, the economy was experiencing a rate of growth which was well below its long-term capacity, also unemployment was high. Faced with conflicting economic objectives, the Government decided that budgetary policy should be aimed primarily at improving the growth performance of the economy which should be designed so as to contribute to the reduction of pressure on costs and prices.

In order to provide a continuing reflationary stimulus to the economy, the level of current expenditure was, therefore, settled at a figure higher than might otherwise have been considered appropriate. By reference to this level of expenditure and on the basis of existing rates of tax, the opening gap which emerged was £8.6 million. The measures announced in the budget provided, firstly, for further expenditure increases of £12.1 million in total and, secondly, tax reliefs costing £14.1 million in total. These additions brought the deficit to £34.8 million which was to be financed to the extent of £7 million by bringing into the Exchequer an exceptional once-for-all payment representing the accumulated surplus of the Central Bank with the balance being financed from borrowing. It was understood, of course, that, to the extent that increased tax revenue would accrue from the impact of the budget on the economy, the amount to be borrowed would be reduced.

The main increases in expenditure announced in the budget were as follows:

£million

Social Welfare payments

8.3

Measures to improve farmers' incomes and productivity generally in line with EEC directives

1.8

Increases for Public Service pensioners

1.9

With regard to the tax reliefs, £11 million related to improvements in the income tax personal allowances and £2.7 million to the restoration of the pre-October, 1970 rate of company tax. Alleviation of income taxation was provided for as the incidence of the tax is relatively heavy in Ireland, since a growing proportion of it is paid by salary and wage earners.

It was estimated at budget time that the budgetary measures, by add-the £35 million to spending power, would have the effect of raising the growth rate by about 1¾ percentage points between mid-1972 and mid-1973. On the capital budget side, a further boost to the economy was provided by a substantial increase in the public capital programme.

In the taxation field, the budget was designed to make a contribution to price stability, in that for the first time since 1959, there were no price increases attributable to taxation changes. This contribution to price stability was designed to be matched by a positive response from employers and employees in the form of a new national pay agreement, one that would be considerably less inflationary than the expiring agreement. In this manner the pressure on costs and prices would, it was expected, be moderated and employment and growth would be promoted.

On the capital budget side, the programme for 1972-73 was expressly designed to give further stimulus to economic activity generally but in particular to activity with significant employment content. The programme was originally set at £251.3 million. In August, 1972, some extra allocations, totalling £4.8 million were approved for building and construction. The building and construction allocations now total £79 million or almost one third of the revised public capital programme. The total public capital programme for 1972-73 now stands at £256 million which is £42 million more than the outturn for 1971-72 and £63 million more than the original 1971-72 programme.

From this general review of budgetary policy for the current financial year, Senators will have an overall view of the strategy being followed to improve the growth performance of the economy, to foster activity with an employment content and help evolve an appropriate pay policy.

At the outset of his contribution, Senator Quinlan said he hoped that the views expressed in this debate would have some influence on the coming budget. I cannot at this stage indicate what influence such remarks might have but I can assure him that his and the other speeches in this debate will be noted carefully in the preparation of the coming budget. He will, of course, appreciate that it would be premature for me at this stage to indicate the general strategy of the coming budget.

In dealing with the economic situation I support the confidence that was expressed by Senator Keery when he spoke. It was not unfair of him to point out that Senator Alexis FitzGerald, who led-off for the Opposition, did not question the basic soundness of our economic situation. In fact, strength and resilience have marked our economic performance in 1972.

In spite of the adverse effects of the northern situation, a poor tourist year and difficulties in our main external market, a growth rate of the order of three per cent was achieved. Exports were buoyant; the balance of payments deficit was markedly reduced; reserves were maintained; industrial activity recovered from the sluggishness which had characterised it in the previous year and new levels of prosperity in agriculture were reached. The indications are that for the most part these favourable developments are continuing.

We have solid grounds, therefore, for looking forward to a good year in 1973. There are, of course, areas of difficulty. Some of them are potentially very dangerous. Senators have referred to these as, indeed, have I and other members of the Government on previous occasions. Inflation is, I suppose, the most serious danger we face. I regard it as such because it can undermine our achievements, sap our economic strength and bring progress to a halt. The Government are alive to these dangers. They have acted and are acting consistently to prevent their being realised.

I may say that the problem of "stagflation," as it is called, is now one with which most people are familiar. It is a phenomenon which has developed in relatively recent times but it has happened in so many places that most of us know about it now. It is a disease from which we have been suffering. We have been having substantial inflation and at the same time having, perhaps, no growth and high unemployment. In these circumstances the classic economic remedies for inflation simply do not work. The cutting back on expenditure and cutting back substantially on the money supply in these circumstances simply makes the position worse. As far as I am concerned I have no intention of approaching our economic problems on that basis, as has been recommended to me by some people.

Senator Alexis FitzGerald said that we do not have any incomes and prices policy. I wonder does such a policy have to come in a neatly wrapped package, clearly labelled "prices and incomes policy" before it is recognised? I do not think Senator Alexis FitzGerald's powers of perception are such that he thinks that. It should be quite clear to him and to other Members of the House that inflation has widespread causes and these have to be attacked if the problem is to be beaten. Concerted, complementary action in areas which are sometimes widely apart is called for to defeat inflation.

This is precisely what the Government have provided. The fact that the steps taken may be in such disparate areas and that they are not drawn together and labelled "prices and incomes policy" does not mean that there is not a prices and incomes policy. The Government implement a most active and comprehensive prices policy. The aim of that policy is to ensure that unjustified increases in prices do not occur. The main instrument is the National Prices Commission to which well-deserved tributes have been paid in the course of this debate.

The commission keep prices under surveillance and advise the Minister for Industry and Commerce on the exercise of price control. Any one even vaguely informed about the activities of the commission is aware that they are a most active body. The increases in prices which they recommend are the minimum necessary to meet unavoidable cost increases. The requirement under which manufacturers, importers and wholesalers have to give one month's notice of intention to increase prices or margins was extended in October last to persons providing services. The average increase in non-food prices has declined substantially. Food prices have, admittedly, increased significantly. These increases are mainly due to external market factors which are largely outside the influence of Government policy or control.

Senators will have noted that in the recent price control measures announced in Britain fresh food is exempt. That is one indication of the extent to which in many countries Governments are not in a position to control the prices of food and fresh food in particular. The aim of the Government's incomes policy is to moderate the growth of incomes through voluntarily negotiated agreements. The second national agreement was concluded after months of detailed negotiation. Despite its somewhat inflationary character the Government accepted it because it is certainly less inflationary than a free-for-all. It offered the hope of a further period of industrial peace and if it is operated responsibly it could lay the groundwork for more favourable developments in future agreements. The Government's immediate concern, therefore, is to ensure that the provisions of the agreement will be respected during the remainder of its currency.

As regards non-wage incomes, these are influenced through the operation of the Government's prices policy and also through their policy on restrictive practices. I do not think any note of easy optimism is proper in considering the progress of our efforts to reduce the rate of price rises. We are dealing with strong forces, deeply rooted and not all within our compass of control. It is right, therefore, to be wary in measuring the degree of success we have had and assessing what the outlook is. Favourable trends are evident among the indicators. The overall rate of price increase is showing signs of a downturn. From 9 per cent in 1971 it fell to 8.6 per cent in 1972 with an even greater slowing down in the final quarter of last year. Senators are also probably aware that were it not for trends in food prices the movements of the consumer price index would have been more encouraging still. The rise in non-food prices has shown a continuous deceleration from 11 per cent in the 12 months ended mid-February, 1971, to 6.7 per cent in the year to mid-November, 1972. The rate of increase in food prices is disturbing. It does involve hardship. I certainly, in common with everybody here, would not wish to see it continue. I recognise that climatic factors and scarcities of some commodities in 1972 have helped to push up food prices. There has also been the increasing world demand for beef. To the extent that these factors are outside our control we have to suffer their effects and in so far as they have helped to raise incomes and standards for the agricultural community they are not to be seen as altogether adverse. Nevertheless, such rapid increases are very disquieting and—if they continue —they will require off-setting action.

Where the factors making for inflation are outside our control, off-setting action must primarily be compensatory. Far more rewarding results can be obtained by resolute action on the factors which can be influenced by us. Our grip on these factors has become stronger. The national pay agreements have given us better control of the development of our wage costs. We can build on this and profit by raising our levels of output of domestic sales and our exports so that unit costs are reduced and competitiveness increased.

There is now a greater public sensitivity to price increases than before. Our apparatus of price control and surveillance is being perfected. We can depend on this apparatus and make more use of it to see that unwarranted jacking-up of prices does not take place. The Government have worked for and promoted these developments and have under-pinned them through its fiscal policy and will continue to do so. It is our aim to create a social climate and a framework of institutions that will enable all sections of our community to work together more effectively in beating the problem of rising prices.

We can rely on the co-operation and goodwill of Senators in that work. I share Senators' concern with the employment situation. Happily, the available information on employment and unemployment indicates that the general position is now improving, if somewhat slowly. In the June quarter of 1972, employment in manufacturing industry, after allowing for seasonal influences, rose slightly. This represented a significant improvement on the trend recorded in the preceding quarters. The improvement in employment is also reflected in the favourable movements in the live register during the last quarter of 1972.

As regards redundancies which are notified to the Department of Labour, there has been some decrease in the number notified in the second half of 1972. Industrial exports has contributed towards improving the domestic situation and have been particularly buoyant during the period from May onwards. It is probable that the improving trends in the employment situation continued after the first half of 1972 and, as independent commentators have pointed out, these trends can be expected to have continued into the present year.

I should like to make it clear that Government efforts to improve the situation, particularly through the public capital programme and the specific picking out of areas in which there was employment content which could be activated quickly for the purpose of expending additional money in the public capital programme, have contributed quite significantly to ensuring that the employment situation last year did not become substantially worse. There is an admittedly slow improvement in that situation.

Additional substantial sums of money have also been made available to the IDA for promotional work. We are dependent to a great extent on the provision of industrial employment in order to overcome the unemployment problem facing us. Very often, when I heard people speak about the unemployment or employment situation during recent times they failed to make reference to what is a very important factor, namely, the situation in the North. This situation has had an adverse effect on our tourist industry and this does not simply mean an adverse effect on receipts of hoteliers, it is felt much further in the economy and is having an effect on a number of industries.

Because of our entry into the EEC, we can offer favourable terms to promoters from abroad to set up industries here and gain access to the EEC market, but those benefits are being, to some extent, counteracted by the effect of the conflict in Northern Ireland. We should, in any discussion about employment, remind ourselves and our people of this factor as, indeed, on any discussion of the situation in the North we ought also remind ourselves of the effect it is having on the employment situation in the Republic.

Senator Brosnahan referred to pension parity. In 1969 the Government accepted the principle of parity of pensions, that is, that pensions should be revised by reference to current pay rates, but it was indicated that, because of the substantial cost involved, the move towards this would have to be spread over a number of years. Progress towards parity was made in 1969, 1970 and in 1971. A major breakthrough was made in the 1972 budget when I announced that parity would be granted to public service pensioners with effect from 1st October, 1972, by bringing their pensions up to levels related to pay as on 1st January, 1972, the date of the most recent general revision of public sector pay. The cost of this concession is quite substantial, amounting in a full year to £5.6 million approximately. As Senator Brosnahan stated, pensioners were very appreciative of this step, but I am aware they expressed anxiety about the maintenance of parity in future. They felt that unless there was some formal commitment now to maintaining parity in future years there was always the danger that their position might deteriorate once again relative to the general body of staff currently retiring.

I am very pleased now to be able to give them an assurance that the Government have decided to maintain pension parity in future years. This will be effective on the basis of revising public service pensions by reference to the rates of pay in force on 1st June each year, the revised rates being paid with effect as from 1st October following. This is a valuable and significant improvement for public service pensioners as indicated, indeed, by the fact that on the basis of existing pay agreements the cost of the increase will be £1.2 million in 1973-74 and £2.7 million in a full year.

During the course of the debate reference was made to value-added tax, the changeover to which took place on 1st November last. It is not possible yet to assess the practical effect of the changeover on tax yields. Payment of tax in respect of November and December transactions was due between the 10th and 19th of this month. As I say, it is not yet possible to make any realistic assessment of its effect. It seems to me—I am saying this hopefully—that the full extent of the effect of VAT will not be shown in the yield from VAT alone but that other aspects of taxation and, in particular, income tax may reflect, from the point of view of the taxpayer in general, some beneficial effects of the application of VAT. I am hopeful that it will do so.

As the House knows, the rates of value-added tax have been chosen to match as far as possible both the yields and the incidence of the turnover and wholesale taxes which it was replacing so as to avoid disruption of trade and disturbance to the level of prices generally. In the case of five-sixths of total goods and services which were liable to tax there was no change at all from the former tax rates and therefore no excuse whatever for traders to change their prices as a consequence of VAT.

The consumer price index which measures prices as they stood on 14th November, 1972, shows a rise over the previous November of 8.2 per cent, of which 1.5 per cent occurred since mid-August 1972. As compared with the corresponding prior year figures of 8.6 per cent and 2.1 per cent respectively the figures show a continuation of the trend towards a somewhat slower rise in overall prices which has been apparent during most of 1972. While those figures give no grounds for complacency in regard to inflationary forces generally, they lend no support to any contention that the introduction of value-added tax caused a substantial rise in prices.

Reference was made during the course of the debate to the Report of the Public Services Organisation Review Group—the Devlin Report No. 1. Legislation to set up a new Department of the Public Services as recommended in that report has been introduced in Dáil Éireann. I hope this House will soon have an opportunity of considering it. In the meantime, the Department of Finance have been restructured to provide for separate management of the functions of organisation and personnel in the public service. An organisation division and a personnel division have been created in place of the existing personnel division. A new section has been set up within the new personnel division to look after recruitment policy generally.

Whether or not any new legislation affecting the Civil Service Commission will be required is not yet clear. On the question of the separation of structures responsible for policy and execution, the Government have decided to proceed with this concept—the Aireacht concept—on a trial basis in the Departments of Health, Industry and Commerce, Transport and Power and Local Government. Officials from the embryo Department of the Public Service, together with senior staff from the relevant Departments I have mentioned, have formed task force teams and are now well advanced with the analysis pertaining to the setting up of these new structures in these Departments.

Senator Alexis FitzGerald referred to the matter of decentralisation. I can assure the House that there has been no change in the Government's decision to transfer the headquarters work of the Department of Education and of the Department of Lands to Castlebar and Athlone. The decision is being implemented in the first instance by transfer to Athlone and Castlebar of selected sections in these Departments. The Office of Public Works are drawing up plans and bills of quantities for the new offices and it is expected that tenders will be sought for both projects before mid-March of this year. The offices should be completed by mid-1975. I am sure the Senator will appreciate that, where the transfer of a Department or sections thereof is concerned, a considerable amount of planning and preliminary work is entailed. But I am glad to tell the House that it is now well under way.

Senator Kennedy referred to the apparently moderate increases in outlay on social welfare. Every budget for the past decade saw consistent improvements in the rates and extensions of the coverage of social welfare payments. This has been reflected in the increasing ratio of social welfare outlay to GNP. In 1968, for instance, the ratio was 5½ per cent; in 1972 the ratio was 7 per cent. In money terms this means that in the current financial year we are spending more than double the amount spent on social welfare four years ago. In 1968-69 social welfare expenditure was just over £77 million. In the current financial year, it will total £158 million.

Apart from the fact that in each of these years very substantial increases were given in all rates of social insurance and social assistance, including a 50 per cent increase in payments for children last year, the scope of the services has been considerably extended both by the introduction of new schemes, such as the retirement and invalidity pension schemes and the old-age care allowances. In addition to that, there has been modification of existing schemes, for instance, by easement of all means tests. This evidences, as Senator Crinion pointed out in his contribution to the debate, a steady and sustained advance in the social welfare scheme.

Senator Alexis FitzGerald also suggested that I should further examine the question of reintroducing the income tax arrangements relating to the making of covenants to charitable organisations which applied here up to 1940. Prior to 1940, the arrangement of entering into a covenant for the making of annual payments to charitable organisations was widely used for income tax purposes. As a consequence, large sums of money were paid each year from the Exchequer by way of repayments of income tax to a wide variety of organisations, many of which were charitable only in the technical sense. In effect the charities got a subsidy from the State, the amount of which was determined, not by the State itself, but by the subscribers to the charities.

Apart from certain exceptions specifically provided in 1957 and 1959, respectively, for the purpose of encouraging research and teaching of the natural sciences, section 3 of the Finance Act, 1940, as amended, now section 439 of the Income Tax Act, 1967, put an end to all such covenating arrangements in so far as tax repayments were concerned. It will be appreciated that, on revenue considerations alone, I could not contemplate introducing amending legislation designed, in effect, to restore the position which obtained before 1940.

References were made to the problem of the rising prices of building land particularly in Dublin. I am sure the House is aware that the general question of possible control of the price of building land is the subject of a special examination by a committee appointed by the Minister for Local Government, under the chairmanship of a High Court judge. That report is expected in the near future. I do not want to say too much in advance of that report because I do not know what is in it, but there are certain considerations that Senators should bear in mind in this serious and vexatious matter. The most important thing to bear in mind is that the application of levies or taxes of any kind to building land would not solve the problem. In fact, it would make it worse because if the cost of building land is increased by way of tax or levy the vendor will increase the price further to enable him to recover this, so that instead of helping the problem that makes it worse. After long consideration of this problem, that is my view. The only effective way of dealing with it presents considerable legal difficulties and, for that reason, we have been unable to deal with the problem up to now and we were obliged to set up this committee. I hope that their report will be able to direct us in a way which will overcome the legal problems involved.

Senator Alexis FitzGerald emphasised the need to ensure that the best managerial talent will be kept in this country. While in this country income tax on earnings of, say, £5,000 to £10,000 represents a relatively heavier burden as compared with the position in a number of other countries such as the United States or Britain, it must be remembered that the yield from direct taxes here represents a much lower proportion of total taxation than in many other countries. This is attributable in no small measure to economic factors such as the comparatively restricted wage and salary sectors and generally lower per capita incomes in this country, and a narrow corporate sector which attracts generous tax incentive reliefs.

In addition, the relatively narrow tax base is further eroded by exemptions and reliefs and the net result is that the rates of income tax have to be pitched at a higher level to produce the necessary yield in revenue. The fact that indirect taxes comprise over 60 per cent of total tax revenue clearly limits the scope for easing the burden of direct taxation by means of a shift to indirect taxation.

Senator Alexis FitzGerald criticised the Government for adopting a regional policy, which was a watered-down version of the Buchanan Report recommendations. When that report was published in May, 1969, the Government having considered it, decided that its growth centre recommendations should be further considered in the context of proposals for regional development generally and to that end the Government called for the establishment, in each region, of a regional development organisation. The reports produced by these organisations on the main factors affecting economic expansion at a regional level were valuable. They were drawn on by the Government in deciding on the regional policies set out in a statement in May, 1972. The procedure which the Government adopted gave an opportunity to canvas opinions throughout the country before decisions on regional policy were taken. I make no apology for what was done in that connection. The implications of the Buchanan Report were profound and the time scale over which their effects would be felt was lengthy. It would have been indefensible had the Government made decisions on the Buchanan proposals without giving the regions an opportunity to express their views. The regional policy adopted by the Government in May, 1972, differed in some respects from the Buchanan proposals. It is more in tune with the preferences expressed by the regional development organisations. It is not, as the Senator seems to think, an industrial development policy alone. The Senator can look at the four page statement in which the Government's regional policy was set out and he will find that the IDA regional industrial plan occupy only one paragraph. The statement set out the regional strategy which the Government envisaged as the one that should be pursued over the next 20 years.

The period 1973-1977 only is covered in the IDA regional plans. They are but an element, though an important one, of this longer-term strategy. To equate the IDA plans with the Government's regional policy demonstrates a failure to study and grasp the implications of that strategy.

While industrial development will have a vital role to play in the implementation of the Government's regional strategy, other programmes such as the provision of infrastructure and industrial training will be important. I have asked departments and semi-State bodies to ensure that their programmes, capital and current, support the Government strategy.

Senator Boland referred to road financing. The whole question of road financing is under review. I would agree with Senator Boland that it is quite clear that the necessary major works cannot be financed under the existing system. For this reason, a full-scale review is under way at present.

I should like to conclude my remarks by referring to a problem which was referred to by most Senators in their contributions and one which is weighing heavily on all of us, namely, the situation in Northern Ireland. I do not intend to made in this regard but I wish to say one or two things about Senator Kelly's contribution. It is a pity that he was being so small-minded about a very serious matter. It seems to me, on a perusal of his speech, that he engaged in a great deal of carping criticism of the Taoiseach which, when not wrongly conceived, is simply hair-splitting.

I do not think many Unionists in the North would agree with the Minister on that.

The Senator said that the policy of the Government, enunciated by the Taoiseach, is not clear. If words mean anything, the policy is perfectly clear to anybody who wants to understand. I suspect that the problem with Senator Kelly is that he does not agree with the policy. That is why he says it is not clear. It has been spelled out in straightforward language and there are certain underlying concepts with which Senator Kelly has difficulty. I do not think the Taoiseach requires any defence by me, in fact, I know he does not.

He got a great deal of it in a very disorderly way, last week from the back benchers over there.

Let me give an example of the kind of criticism made by Senator Kelly, which I think is unfortunate and unworthy of him. It was in relation to myself and I certainly do not resent it, because there is nothing to resent in it, but it is unfortunate that the Senator adopted this approach. The Senator will recall that in the course of his speech he made reference to a speech which I made some time ago and he said that I stated:

A fundamental objective of Fianna Fáil is, and always has been, the achievement of national unity in the spirit of harmony and brotherly affection between all Irishmen.

In relation to that, Senator Kelly said that he coined this phrase and gave it to the late Deputy Sweetman who, in turn, furnished it, or something very similar, to the committee on the Constitution.

From which the Minister pinched it.

I am going to quote the Senator. I wrote down what he said.

And more power to the Minister if he really means it.

It was, or something very similar was, incorporated in the report of the committee on the Constitution in 1967. Senator Kelly said that I came along and I nailed it to the Fianna Fáil bannerhead, a phrase thought up by a member of Fine Gael.

That is the simple truth.

This is supposed to be a substantial criticism by Senator Kelly. May I suggest to Senator Kelly that the phrase is a good phrase?

I give him every credit for that. It is a good phrase but it is only a phrase. That is all it is.

No one is going to get killed as a result of it.

The reality behind it —the Senator should pay a little attention to what I am saying at this stage. There were many contributions on the question of the North, some of which were valuable. May I, in all sincerity, ask him to listen to the point I am making? The Senator quoted this and complained that I had stolen this phrase and affixed it to the Fianna Fáil bannerhead. May I first of all remind him that it is only a phrase and then ask him to think about the reality behind it? The reality behind it is persuasion and agreement, on the one hand, as against violence on the other hand. That is the reality we are talking about. It does not really matter what phrase we use to describe it. The reality behind it is what is important. What I was saying is—I hope the Senator will not endeavour to contradict me because if he does I will have to deal with him—that this reality behind it, in other words persuasion and agreement rather than violence in the achievement of the unity of this country, is and always has been the policy of Fianna Fáil. That is the important thing, not the phrase I used.

Could I ask the Minister, in a non-contentious way, if that is so, has he not pressed for the use of the phrase in the Constitution because it was as a replacement for the existing Article 3 that that phrase occurred? I agree it is only a phrase but it was in that context it occurred.

I am about to deal with that point because there is a matter of some importance involved in this too. There are people——

Let us just add that I know the Minister is not the worst, by any means, in this regard and I have said that frequently in public. He is one of the best in fact.

Timeo danaos. There are people who talk about the recognition by us of Northern Ireland and there are people who talk about the abolition of Article 2 of our Constitution in this regard. With all due respect and charity to such people, I think that many of them are guilty of a great deal of nonsense and ignorance. Not all of them are guilty of this; some of them know precisely what they are suggesting but many of them do not. They are not all in the North of Ireland; many of them are in the South.

In our Constitution we lay claim to the whole island of Ireland, its islands and territorial seas, as the national territory. Britain, in its legislation, lays claim to the Six Counties, Northern Ireland, or whatever you like to call the region and you, therefore, have two conflicting claims to the same territory by two nations through two sovereign Governments. That is one position. The position of Northern unionists— and wherever I use the word "unionists", unless I indicate otherwise, I am using it with a small "u"—in relation to Northern Ireland, and their relation to us, is quite a different matter. Anybody who says that we ought to abolish Article 2 of the Constitution is, in effect, saying that we ought to abandon, not to northern unionists but to Britain——

This is precisely what the committee, which the Minister presided over, said.

Wait, I am coming to it. I am glad the Senator said that because I want to deal with that point. They argue that we should abandon to Britain, not to northern unionists, our claim to the Six Counties. Senator Kelly surprises me with his last interjection because I would suggest that he have another look at the report of that committee and at the Constitution. If he does so he will find that no change whatever is recommended in relation to Article 2.

There is no change recommended to Article 2.

Article 3 is the crunch one. That is the one that the Minister should be talking about. Article 2 is relatively harmless.

Wait a moment, I do not think the Senator has grasped the point.

Article 2 defines the national territory and Article 3 lays claim to the whole 32-Counties.

Yes, Article 2 defines the national territory. Article 3 says "pending the re-integration of the national territory, the laws——

——and without prejudice to the right of the Parliament and Government established by this Constitution to exercise jurisdiction over the whole of that territory...

and the committee over which the Minister presided recommended a change in that co-relation.

Would the Senator listen a little further because he is now repeating what people like Mr. Kevin Boland have been saying, and he is wrong?

He puts his money where his mouth is, which is more than can be said for some of us.

He is wrong. The Senator is dragging in a red herring. There are two quite distinct problems. We have a dilemma—let us not try to fool ourselves about it. On the one hand, there is a claim by Britain to the territory of the Six Counties of the northeast of Ireland; on the other hand, there is a claim by us to that territory. That is one side of the equation. When you come to the other which, strictly speaking, does not involve Britain at all, there is the situation between us and northern unionists in which we want to persuade them to join in with us. The legal sovereignty exercised in Northern Ireland is exercised by Britain—not by northern unionists. We cannot legally recognise them in the sense that people frequently speak of. In that committee on the Constitution we did try to deal with this dilemma by recommending the retention of Article 2, which defines the national territory. We also recommend an amendment to Article 3, which was designed to spell out our approach to the achievement of unity as between us and northern unionists, quite distinct from ourselves and Britain.

Hear, hear. Why was it not done?

The Senator is changing his feet.

No. I know exactly what I am talking about.

If it should have been done, then the Senator is saying that we should have abandoned our claim. If he is not saying that, is he now saying that the committee did not recommend the abandonment of our claim against Britain?

I say that the Minister presided over a committee that recommended the replacement of Article 3, which asserts a claim to the power of this House as it stands, to exercise jurisdiction over Lurgan, Portadown and Ballymena. I regard that as nonsense and the Minister knows it is nonsense. He recommended accordingly and now we are getting it back.

I do not think any member of that committee recommended this change for any reason other than that he felt that the adoption of that recommendation in relation to Article 3—not Article 2, mark you—would make clear to everybody, but in particular to people in Northern Ireland, the basis on which we want to see unity achieved.

As to why that was not implemented there are many reasons but, let me remind the Senator that that was a report —and this was spelled out on a number of occasions—which was made by an informal committee. Each of the political parties was to meet, if they wanted to, to consider it and decide what their attitude would be. If my party are at fault in this, so are the Senator's party and the Labour Party.

I thought the Ministers' party were in government. Are we supposed to be leading the country? I often think we are.

Again the Senator has not listened to what I said. This report was to be considered by each of the political parties. It was not an official report which came before the Houses of the Oireachtas or the Government. Each party were to indicate their attitude and the Senator knows from that report that it covered a great many other items, too. Time has long ago caught up with that report.

On the contrary, we are further back now than we were in 1967. The goodwill that had been generated has been lost.

No. The time is now coming when what will be required to achieve a satisfactory Constitution for any kind of all-Ireland State will be a new Constitution. That is the reason I said that time has caught up with that report. The reason that I was referring to that recommendation was, firstly, that too many people do not understand that when they are recommending: "Amend Article 2 of the Constitution", they are saying: "Abandon your claim to the British." Some think that they are saying: "Let us make it right between us and the northern unionists." What, in effect, they are saying is: "Abandon it to the British."

The British would drop it like a hot potato, if they could; that is common ground these days.

If the British would do that, we might be in business.

This is terribly important. I had a lot of trouble making my speech and I do not want to barrack the Minister but this is very, very important. The Minister has just said—and I know he means it well— that he thinks that if there is going to be any constitutional change, it will have to be a Constitution for the whole of the new Ireland, or words to that effect. I would like to see that solution, too, but if I were a northern unionist— with a small "u" or any other kind of "u"—I would say to myself: "This is a senior Minister and this is Mr. Lynch's Government, and he is planning the destruction of my Constitution that I think legitimate, when he uses a phrase like that." Some of the phrases used by the Taoiseach, Deputy Lynch, are not reconcilable with one another, although I know he does not intend bloodshed or savagery. That is the effect of his illconsidered remarks.

I am just coming to that. The Senator has a happy knack of anticipating each point I am about to make. I should like to refer to this question of the use of the word "unity" by the Taoiseach. I think the Senator referred to statements made by the Taoiseach—I cannot remember the exact words; he used different words on different occasions —but the meaning was clear. He said that no long-term solution was possible, except in the context of unity.

He said he would not support any settlement in which the unity of Ireland was not a conspicuous feature but he knows he will not get a settlement like that.

It depends on how you interpret what a conspicuous feature is.

Is it in order——

It need not be like the prices and incomes policy to which I referred earlier; it need not be wrapped up and labelled "unity". There are different ways of achieving these things. However, I am not sure of Senator Kelly's position in this. He accused us of being somewhat unclear in our policies. However, in this matter I am not quite clear whether Senator Kelly is on the same wavelength in this regard as, for instance, Deputy Cruise-O'Brien, about the use of the word "unity". If he is, let me tell him that I disagree fundamentally with him. I certainly disagree fundamentally with Deputy Cruise-O'Brien on this.

Is it in order to drag in the views of a Member of the other House? Is it not enough to deal with the views expressed here?

I am sorry. The reason I dragged it in was that that particular Deputy's views on this subject are well known, and I was using them as a method of identifying them. I do not know whether Senator Kelly agrees with them, and I was in some doubt, having read his contribution, whether he does or not. I want to make it quite clear, as far as I am concerned and as far as my party are concerned, and everything I say in this regard is in the context that our policy is based on the achievement of unity by agreement and by consent, in that context—and one must not lose sight of that—I would regard an approach which was to the effect that one should not use the word "unity" at all at this stage as being dishonest and ineffective. It is dishonest because, as far as most of us are concerned, we would not mean it. There may be some people who would mean to abandon claims to unity, but there are not very many. It would certainly be ineffective.

Senator Kelly spoke about the reaction of unionists of various kinds to statements by the Taoiseach. He, Senator Kelly, projected himself into their shoes. Would he project himself into the shoes of any unionist, whether his unionism has a capital or small "u", who suddenly finds that the political parties in the South are stopping all reference to unity? No mention of it. If I were a unionist I would regard that as a most ominous development. There is no doubt about the line we are following in this regard. We have never made any secret of the fact that we hope and aim to achieve the reunification of this country. We hope to do so by persuasion and consent. We know, apart from any other considerations, that it is not possible to achieve unity by violence or force or coercion.

Does the Minister think it would be considered to be ominous by a Northern unionist to have it constantly reiterated that, however long or short it takes, there will be unity, although he would sell his life rather than accept that?

I said to the Senator and the House earlier that all of these statements were made in the context, which has been reiterated time after time, that we want to achieve unity only by consent.

I know the Senator is correct when he says that there are some unionists who take the attitude he has described. One moment's thought will reveal that such people are simply irrational. The majority of people who take a unionist view of the situation are not irrational. They know that if we say we want to achieve unity but only by consent and agreement we are not talking about dragging them in with us, that we are not talking about destroying their Constitution; we are talking about persuading them.

When the Taoiseach says he will not support something that means he will invite, say, the SDLP up there to oppose it. What could be more destructive to peace in the North than to leave that inference open to the unionists?

The Taoiseach has a very solemn obligation not to aid or abet any move which will not contribute to a solution of the appalling problems in Northern Ireland. Any attempt to solve those problems without recognition of what the British called the "Irish dimension" is doomed to failure and would make the situation much worse.

The Minister is playing the same game now. He is acting the prophet. How does he know it is doomed to failure? It may or may not be. The Unionists would not agree on that with some of the British.

We have 50 years of experience to show us what happens.

Nothing was done about the North for 50 years. The Minister knows that very well. We all forgot about it and turned our backs on it. I do not say the Minister's party were any worse than the rest in that regard.

During the course of the Senator's contribution, in reply to an interjection by Senator Brugha, he asked: "How do you know that complete integration will not work?" That is how we know. Also we have a certain amount of knowledge of the realities of the situation. We know the people concerned. We know how irreconcilable their views are on many aspects. Knowing that, our efforts must be directed to ensure, in so far as we can contribute, that an interim solution is achieved which will guarantee that neither community in the North can dominate the other and that each can be assured of this fact; that given that assurance and the confidence which flows from it, the people can then begin to think rationally. It is at that stage that we would hope to start persuading unionists and convincing them, that their long-term and best interests lie in joining us.

Neither I, nor anybody on this side of the House, disputes that but a policy put forward which has that as its objective should not be accompanied by phrases which are open to interpretation by ignorant people as a long-term threat to their own Constitution or what they think of as their own Constitution.

There are some people who hold that view but such people are irrational. They cannot be otherwise if they hold that view in the context I have described.

They are well able to pull a trigger.

Yes. They are not the only ones who are. We have an obligation which we cannot abdicate. The British must face up to the threat of violence from Protestant extremists. They have been eloquent in describing their determination to stand up to violence when it comes from one side. They must show the same determination to oppose violence on the other side if they are to have any credibility, not only here but abroad. They must do this also if they hope to achieve any solution satisfactory to themselves as well as to this country.

The situation which is looming ahead is a difficult one. I would not want to underestimate the difficulty in any way. It has been difficult in the past and will continue to be so for quite some time to come.

What precisely are we doing to persuade the Northern Unionists to join us?

At the moment, very little. There is very little we can do.

Could we change some of our laws in relation to contraceptives?

I do not know if the Senator is seriously suggesting that in present circumstances the change of our laws would make the slightest difference to any unionist in the North. I do not think the Senator understands the pressures and the powers which are motivating people in the North at present. These must be sorted out in the interim solution, on the general basis I have described, before we can get people to think. I do not want to pursue that point any further. The short answer I will give to the Senator is that I do not think there is very much we can do at the moment, except to make clear—as we have tried to do and are continuing to do—that while we want to achieve unity we want to do so by consent and not by violence.

That difficult situation to which I have referred will require careful statesmanship in its handling, as I contend it has received in the past by the Taoiseach. Our people in the South must, in this situation, remain cool and disciplined. Only in this way can the goal which most of us seek be attained. It can be attained, not easily, and not in the way which many people anticipated in the past. It is essential, if the situation is not to deteriorate, that people in the South should be restrained and disciplined. They should get leadership from the Government as they have in the past.

There were brief references made in the debate to some meetings which were being held apparently with the object of laying the foundations for a coalition which, if successful, would place in charge of affairs in this country at this critical time a coalition of Labour and Fine Gael. The idea that a government composed of these two parties as they are at present would provide the kind of leadership which I have been describing and which is urgently required is in my view simply laughable.

The Minister is coming into the straight now.

Would the Minister say how many of the Ministers of the 1969 Government are still left?

The front bench members of the Labour Party in Dáil Éireann are in open and acrimonious dispute about fundamental aspects of their party's policy in relation to Northern Ireland.

I suppose the Minister is still sitting around the same table with Kevin Boland.

I am coming to the Senator's party.

(Interruptions.)

We have solved our problems.

We are talking about 1973 and what is happening today. Nobody with any political awareness could forget what happened some weeks ago in the Senator's party in relation to the legislation to amend the Offences Against the State Act. Nobody could describe the performance of the Fine Gael Party in that regard as other than inept and cowardly.

Would the Minister explain that further?

The party's own statement to the effect that their attitude on that legislation had been changed because of the bombs which exploded in Dublin, if that were true would in my opinion be a most shameful confession of abject cowardice.

That is not true.

Then the truth is even worse and more sinister. The truth is——

It is a pity the Minister's smile denoting no confidence in what he is saying cannot go on the record.

The Senator may be trying to minimise the effect on the record but——

No one reads the record anyway.

The fact is the public have a fair idea of this. However, the Senator asked me for the truth and I will tell him. A number of members of his party were determined, come what may, to get rid of their leader.

The Minister is totally wrong about that. He is getting his information from the newspapers and not from——

Having failed in the past, they saw their opportunity in this issue. I could understand if the Fine Gael Party had said: "We have some doubts about the necessity for this legislation but if the Government say it is needed we will accept it. But there are aspects of it which we consider to be reprehensible and we will fight them tooth and nail on Committee Stage." Frankly, that is what I would have expected. But no, the Fine Gael Party met and issued a statement saying they were totally opposed in principle to that Act. When the pressure grew a subsequent meeting was held and the same statement was made. If the statement issued is to be believed, when two bombs explode in Dublin then the Act becomes acceptable. I do not believe Senator Kelly has such a low opinion of his party that he could believe that.

All I said is that the Minister's interpretation of it as a plot against Deputy Cosgrave as Leader of the Fine Gael party is wrong.

Is it not quite clear that some people in the Fine Gael Party knew what Deputy Cosgrave's line on that Act had to be? It could not be other than it was and they knew that. They tried to manoeuvre the situation in which they would leave Deputy Cosgrave and a small number of his colleagues out on a limb.

That is absolute rubbish from start to finish.

Would the Minister accept my assurance that this is absolutely incorrect?

It is fiction from beginning to end.

(Interruptions.)

I am very slow not to accept an assurance from Senator Alexis FitzGerald.

That is insulting to Senator O'Higgins and myself.

(Interruptions.)

If what I am saying is not the correct explanation, perhaps I could invite Senator FitzGerald to tell us what is.

We are discussing the Appropriation Act.

It is enough just to nail the untruth that the Minister has put on the record.

I fully supported and still support the view of Deputy Cosgrave in relation to that Act. At the same time, if I were utterly opposed to that Act I, personally, would have given the Act to the Minister within an hour of the explosion of the two bombs. That would not have been cowardice. It would have been in the interests of national safety and security.

The Senator is not doing himself justice. What eventually happened was that the Fine Gael Party suddenly switched round their position. In all the explanations which were given no mention was made of one very significant political fact, namely, that the party, having taken the stand they took and reiterated it began to get feedback from the public. The feedback was quite clear in that the public were not having any of this.

I am amazed that the people who, for whatever reason, decided to oppose that Act tooth and nail did not foresee that. The point I wish to make is that such a mess, whatever the explanation, on a matter of public security combined with the fair comment I made on the open and acrimonious debates between front bench members of the Labour Party on fundamental policy in relation to Northern Ireland is such that it raises serious doubts that we could get from that even a tenth-rate government. I do not think we could. For that reason whenever the other House goes before the people, with consequential journeyings for Members of this House, I am quite confident that the policies followed by this Government in relation to the various matters which have been discussed in this debate will receive overwhelming endorsement by our people.

Is the Minister not going to tell us about Boland, Blaney, Haughey and the rest of them?

I asked two specific questions relating to ministerial promises; one about when the words in the Forcible Entry Act will be changed from "encouraging and advocating" to "incitement" and, more importantly, in relation to the Adoption Bill. A promise has been made that there is an Adoption Bill pending. The Adoption Board have been carried on beyond their normal tenure because such a Bill is pending. Could the Minister give me any information on this?

When I spoke in Irish I said there were a number of matters raised which referred to other Ministers, including the Minister for Justice and, while I was not in a position to deal with them, I would ensure that every point raised would be referred to the relevant Minister. The two points referred to by Senator Robinson will be referred to the Minister for Justice.

I appreciate the patience shown by the Minister when he took the stream of interjections and questions I put to him a while ago.

I thank the Senator. Let me assure him they were far easier to take than on previous occasions.

I was hoping the Minister would say that he appreciated our patience.

The debate was a good-humoured one. It is nice when people can disagree without being disagreeable about it.

Question put and agreed to.
The Seanad adjourned at 9.10 p.m.sine die.
Top
Share