Seanad Éireann debate -
Wednesday, 20 Feb 1974

Vol. 77 No. 2

National Building Agency Limited (Amendment) Bill, 1974 (Certified Money Bill): Second Stage.

Question proposed: "That the Bill be now read a Second Time."

Minister for Local Government (Mr. Tully)

The purpose of this short Bill is to facilitate the National Building Agency in raising the capital money needed to finance their expanding programme of housing for industry.

The need for this housing and the lack of any other organisation to meet it effectively were the main reasons why the agency was established as a company in 1960. The provision of proper accommodation for workers in industry remains an important function of the agency.

The agency were put on a statutory basis by the National Building Agency Limited Act, 1963. Section 6 of that Act provided for the making of repayable advances to the agency by the Minister for Finance, and section 7 for guarantees by the Minister of moneys borrowed by it. The latter power has not so far been used. Section 9 of the 1963 Act put a limit of £2 million on the aggregate of borrowings or guarantees. This limit was increased to £5 million by the National Building Agency Limited (Amendment) Act, 1969. The present Bill proposes to extend the limit to £15 million.

The increase of £10 million is needed to finance an expansion of the programme from the annual average of about 150 industrial houses over the past five years to an output of about 600 dwellings in each of the next five years.

The Bill was generally welcomed in the Lower House, where a helpful debate raised some important matters directly connected with the purposes of the Bill. Concern was expressed, for example, at the drabness and lack of variety of many housing schemes — a complaint which could fairly be levelled at many private and public schemes besides those built by the agency. Deputies also echoed criticisms in Press reports of alleged defects in some agency schemes.

I should like to avail of this opportunity to assure Members of this House that I am very much alive to the need for improvement in the environmental aspects of housing schemes generally. I have told the agency to pay particular attention to securing the best practicable environment when planning and constructing their future schemes. I know also that some houses provided by the agency — particularly those built under the "low-cost" housing project — suffered from the skimping of space and materials which naturally resulted from a policy insisting on maximum economy in construction. Other schemes have shown signs of inadequate supervision. I hope that, as a result of my directions to the agency and of the augmentation of their board of directors by new members having special experience of housing, such inadequacies will not be evident in future schemes.

The possibility of financing the operations of the agency by means other than Exchequer advances was also raised in the Dáil. It was suggested for instance that use might be made of an issue of bonds for the purpose. I do not exclude this or other possible ways of raising capital, but I must point out that if the agency issued such bonds they would either be competing with national loans and with other public bodies for a limited pool of special investment funds or else would have to pay the going interest rates for normal lending-rates which are presently much higher than those on advances from the Local Loans Fund.

The present arrangement, under which the agency participate in an orderly way in the public capital programme, has much to commend it. The agency have built a total of 1,398 houses for industry to date. They have work in progress on more than 450 houses and schemes in planning comprising more than 1,000 houses. Almost all these houses are being provided for specific industries or for industrial employees nominated by industry or by the Industrial Development Authority.

The programme is developed in close consultation with the authority and with the local housing authorities under the general co-ordination of my Department. The main areas which will benefit from expansion of the agency's industrial housing activities in the next five years are Galway city and county, where 130 houses a year are to be built; County Donegal, where a total of 274 houses are planned; County Limerick, where 200 houses will be needed; County Mayo, where up to 1,000 houses may be required as a result of the establishment of major new industries, and County Cork, where about 500 industrial houses may be needed. More than 30 areas throughout the country have been identified where houses may be needed for industrial purposes in the next five years.

Appreciating the importance of this programme to the industrial growth and expansion and the well being of our general economy. I know that this House will welcome the Bill.

Mr. McGlinchey

The Minister's opening statement today is very similar to his opening speech on the Second Reading of this Bill in the Dáil last week. When one reads his reply to the Second Stage debate in the Dáil, one immediately notices that it has more political fire than the opening statement here. I have no doubt that in his files the Minister has available to him the same statistics which he used while replying to the Second Reading debate in the Dáil and I have no doubt that, if given the opportunity or excuse, he will use those same statistics here later this evening when possibly some of us may not have an opportunity of commenting on them.

I notice that the Minister took one of my fellow county men to task for his stupidity but in reading the Minister's speech I got the feeling that he must consider that the vast majority of the people are stupid.

An Cathaoirleach

Perhaps I should intervene here to indicate to the Senator that it is not advisable to discuss the proceedings of the other House except in passing in order to answer arguments made there. In regard to this Bill, which is primarily concerned with the National Building Agency, I am perturbed that the Senator is opening his speech by answering arguments made in the Dáil which were not central to the matter of the Bill.

Mr. McGlinchey

I am only making a passing reference at the moment. If I am not in order in discussing the housing statistics the Minister gave when replying to the Second Reading debate in the Dáil, I take it that the Minister will not be in order if he attempts to give these same statistics when replying to this debate.

An Cathaoirleach

That deduction is not a proper deduction to be made from the ruling I gave.

Mr. McGlinchey

When the Minister speaks of 25,000 houses built during this financial year, one gets the impression that on the day he assumed office he waved a magic wand and suddenly thousands of partly-built houses appeared throughout the length and breadth of this country, because in order to complete 25,000 houses in this financial year a great many of them must have been in progress by the month of April. This impression has been conveyed to the people at every possible opportunity in recent months by the Minister and by other members of the Government. First, if we are to judge the record of house building of the present Government the only question we can take into consideration is the number of houses on which building work commenced on 1st January this year.

An Cathaoirleach

I am afraid I must intervene again. The Senator has been speaking for seven minutes and, to my knowledge, has not mentioned the National Building Agency once. While it is in order to bring in passing references to housing in general, the Senator must speak to the Bill and to the part that the National Building Agency play in a general housing programme.

Mr. McGlinchey

The National Building Agency were set up for a number of purposes. It is true to say that they have done useful work in the past. We on this side of the House welcome this Bill and welcome the extra money being made available to the agency because we realise that they are fulfilling a very important social need. In the past the National Building Agency provided houses for members of the Garda Síochána. This was a very successful scheme. I note that in recent times the Department of Justice, and possibly the Garda Commissioner, seem to have lost interest in this scheme.

I think that is a pity. In rural Ireland many gardaí were provided with houses through the National Building Agency at a time when their opportunities in strange towns of getting houses were practically nonexistent. While senior officials of the Department of Justice may not now consider it worthwhile to request the National Building Agency to build these houses for gardaí, I believe, particularly in view of the increase in numbers of the Garda Síochána, that the rank and file still have a desire for these houses to be built by the National Building Agency. I would ask the Minister to initiate discussions through the Department of Justice with the Garda Representative Body to get their views on this subject.

I note that the National Building Agency are providing houses for soldiers at the Curragh and in Athlone. Here again I feel that this is a field in which the National Building Agency could play a much greater part. Since 1969 we have soldiers based in many towns around the Border and as a result of their arrival the housing position has become quite critical. In my own town of Letterkenny in those four years between 40 and 50 young soldiers have been married. Many of these people were strangers to the district and had no opportunity of obtaining houses or flats. I am personally aware of many of these soldiers living under extremely difficult conditions. Again I would ask the Minister to have discussions with whichever officials are responsible in the Department of Defence and to consider the erection of schemes of houses by the National Building Agency for soldiers in towns such as Letterkenny where there are now permanent military barracks.

In the Dáil debate there was a reference to bad workmanship in the past. It would be very foolish for anyone to stand up here and say that all the houses built by the National Building Agency when Fianna Fáil were in office were built to perfection. I know that is not true. I should like to draw the Minister's attention to one scheme in particular in the town of Milford in County Donegal where 40 houses were built literally in a bog hole by the National Building Agency just seven years ago. In a very short time it was discovered that the walls were cracked, that many of the houses were damp and there was evidence of poor workmanship. The Minister should have someone investigate the complaint I am making and if what I say is accurate, or even partly accurate, the necessary steps should be taken to ensure that this will not happen again.

I note that the Minister has given an assurance in his speech here today and in his contribution to the Bill in the Dáil. In the Dáil he stated, as reported at column 641 of the Dáil Official Report for Wednesday, 13th February, 1974,

... I can assure the House that as long as I am Minister for Local Government there will not be built any more of those houses which, because they were to house working-class people, were built cheaply and were of the worst possible materials and designs. I have taken a definite decision that the houses that will be built from now on will be of the best quality and design.

Later on he said:

It is something that should never have happened and we took steps several months ago to ensure that it will not happen again.

I studied a plan submitted by the National Building Agency for the erection of 90 industrial houses. The roads in the scheme are 20 feet wide. There are no back entrances to the houses and there are many blind alleys. There are no open spaces provided. There is provision in that plan for the erection of a further 100 houses. Here is a scheme with roadways 20 feet wide, no back entrances, no playground facilities, no open spaces, and very little car park accommodation. It is not five years since I studied that plan; it is not five months or even five weeks since I studied that plan. It is just ten days ago. Seven years ago, when the National Building Agency applied for planning permission to Letterkenny Urban Council, a body of which I am a member, for planning permission to provide houses for industrial workers, I remember that that same council submitted plans to the Department for a housing scheme and in that plan they provided for roads of 20 feet. The Department of Local Government said: "No, 20 feet is too narrow today", and the Department insisted that the roadways through that scheme should be 24 feet wide. That was the Department of Local Government seven years ago. But now, despite the Minister's assurance in the Dáil on Wednesday, 13th February, that he had taken a decision several months ago that the best quality and design would be insisted on, we find that only two days before he gave that assurance to Dáil Éireann the National Building Agency were seeking planning permission on the lines I have stated. I notice that, when small builders in rural areas attempt to build 30 or 40 houses for sale, the planning authorities insist on all these amenities; and it would be very wrong if the building agency got away with what they are attempting in Letterkenny.

Might I say that my council unanimously recommended to the planning authorities that they should insist on proper roadways and on proper amenities being provided. A body such as this agency should set the highest possible standards, irrespective of the cost, because the people who will be living in these schemes will have to spend the rest of their lives there. But a 200-house scheme without any open space, without any provision for trees, shrubs, playgrounds, and car parking, should not be tolerated in 1974. From what I could see of this plan some of these houses were in blocks of six, and it will be necessary for their tenants or the occupiers of some of the houses to wheel manure for the back garden through the hallways of those houses.

I would ask the Minister to investigate this because, while he was blowing his political trumpet, the building agency was attempting to do what he said would not be done. Every step should be taken to ensure that schemes such as this are worthy of the area in which they are built. It is true to say that since they were established the National Building Agency have done tremendous work, and I have no doubt, despite some of the mistakes they may have made, that they will continue to do so in the future. That is why we on this side of the House welcome the opportunity of supporting the proposals to provide them with an extra £10 million.

Mr. Russell

I should like to welcome this Bill and I think the Minister can be assured that it will get a rapid passage through this House. I should just like to make one or two comments on the Bill and to deal generally with what I think is the main purpose of the Bill, which perhaps may be overlooked in this debate. As I understand it and as the Minister I think has confirmed in his statement introducing this stage of the Bill, the main purpose of this extra capital is to provide accommodation for workers in industry, which provision remains one of the main functions of the agency. The Minister was even more specific in introducing the Bill in the Dáil when he outlined the three main purposes of the agency and went as far as to say that this Bill dealt almost exclusively with the raising of funds to provide houses and ancillaries for industrial workers, and I should like to deal with that aspect of the Bill.

While joining with Senator McGlinchey in congratulating the agency on the work they have done over past years notwithstanding certain criticisms, justified or unjustified, I have never been completely convinced of the need for the National Building Agency. I have taken the view that, given the necessary funds and with adequate staffs, the local authorities throughout the country could provide the bulk of the housing needs, not only the normal needs for their growing population but also the needs for industrial workers. I may be quite wrong but that is a view I have held for some years now. Secondly, with the division of the Industrial Development Authority into regions I feel that the work of providing houses for industrial workers might be undertaken by the various regional authorities of the IDA. If anybody has any doubts about their ability to provide housing for industrial workers they have only to look at the magnificent work done by the Shannon Free Airport Development Company which is the agency of the IDA in the midwestern region. Anybody who has been to Shannon Airport Industrial Estate and the environs of Shannon Airport will agree that they have done a wonderful job.

I do not know how well organised the IDA is in the other regions throughout the country. It would seem to me at least worthy of consideration by the Minister that the agency which is charged with the provision of industrial development in an area should also be charged with the task of providing houses for industrial workers who come to work in that area. I put the proposal forward for the Minister's consideration. I do not suggest that at this stage of the NBA's development any drastic changes should be made. If we can avoid overlapping and if we have organisations that can do certain types of work, I think we should avail of those to the full rather than be duplicating organisations and staffs.

There is also the case of the regional development organisations which have not been referred to, perhaps understandably, by the Minister in his remarks. The regional development organisations, which certainly in some areas are playing a very useful role in co-ordinating and assisting industrial development and the provision of amenities for industrial development, should have some part to play in the provision of houses for industrial workers in their area. I think they should also be consulted along with the IDA and the local authorities about the provision of houses in an area where substantial industrial development is envisaged.

I am a little concerned to see that in the reference to the programme over the next five years, which shows a substantial increase of 300 per cent in the rate of building over the past five years, there is mention of 200 houses for County Limerick. I think that that figure will prove to be totally inadequate having regard to the potential development in the Shannon estuary already begun with the first major breakthrough in the recent announcement of the Alcan project for the estuary near Foynes. It is anticipated that there will be some 2,000 workers building the plant there over the next three or four years and thereafter permanent employment for 800 or 1,000 workers. This is obviously going to be the first of many major developments in the Shannon estuarial area, both in the north and south banks of the Shannon and in the counties of Limerick, Clare, North Tipperary and Kerry. It is not being too optimistic to visualise that over the next five years the need for industrial housing will show an enormous increase in that area. I would specifically draw the Minister's attention to upgrading the programme for County Limerick and the other counties contiguous to the Shannon estuary. There will be a great need for housing because I think that the potential of the Shannon is now at long last being realised. I think that this major development announced last week by the Minister for Industry and Commerce will be followed fairly rapidly by other major industrial maritime developments.

There was some comment in the Dáil debates which I read about the drabness of and lack of variety in the houses built by the NBA. The Minister has commented on that in his remarks this afternoon. He has also said, quite rightly, that the same criticism could apply to the houses built by private enterprise and the local authorities throughout the country. I could not agree with him more. The days are now long past when people were content to live in houses per se— four walls and a roof. In addition to more interesting and more varied design, I should like to see in every housing development, whether it be by the NBA or the local authorities or indeed private enterprise developments, adequate space for playgrounds, recreation centres and parks. A house is not a home unless these amenities are provided. Whatever defects there are in past Housing Acts I hope that the present Minister will rectify them and ensure that any authority or any organisation building houses will provide adequate open spaces, so that houses will be homes for the families who have to live there.

I am long enough in a local authority to realise that in days gone by the only thing that mattered was building houses. Things like playgrounds or parks or recreation centres did not matter. People wanted to get out of the slums and get into some sort of decent housing conditions. That was quite understandable. Our ideas and our standards have been raised from those days, and we cannot contemplate a housing estate or a housing scheme now without proper provision for the young people who will grow up in these houses and who will want to let off their excess steam on playgrounds or in recreational centres, together with facilities for community centres, for schools, churches, and shopping centres. The whole lot should go hand in hand when the NBA and the local authorities are planning. All these things should be planned together. Every housing estate should be not only an estate of houses but also a community centre. That should be the emphasis from now on.

The provision of houses for the Defence Forces was mentioned, and obviously in some areas they are providing houses. In other areas they are not providing houses for soldiers and for members of the Garda Síochána. Here the NBA could serve a very useful purpose. I hope that the Minister will ensure that instead of the local authorities using up their limited funds for providing houses for members of the Defence Forces the NBA should be encouraged to provide these in the various areas throughout the country where there are Army barracks, Army personnel and Garda personnel as well as Civil Service personnel.

Again I should like to welcome the Bill and to hope that in a few years from now the Minister will be coming back to look for more funds. The fact that we have to build industrial houses is an indication of the economic progress of the country and its expansion and the confidence of the Minister and the Government in the years ahead.

Mr. Dolan

I, too, wish to welcome this Bill. I am very glad there is need for it. The National Building Agency were established in 1963 to do a specific job. At that time there was an industrial expansion drive and it had been found that in many areas where new industries were arriving people were unable to find housing and the local authorities were not able to provide the houses fast enough. Consequently it was necessary to have some type of organisation which would be able to do the job efficiently and quickly.

It is interesting to note that since then almost 1,400 houses have been built by the National Building Agency. It is a fairly good accomplishment and something for which they deserve credit. It is true to say, as some previous speakers have said, that the local authorities, too, can build houses, but for some reason or another the machinery there is slower. Very often it has been difficult in the past to acquire building land and to acquire serviced sites and indeed to get the necessary facilities extended to those housing sites so that those living in the houses would have modern amenities. As far as I know, the houses built by the National Building Agency are an excellent type of house, and it is only right that they should be of sound and solid structure with particular and individualistic characters of their own in each area. Very often the people occupying these houses may change from one place to another. It is true that Garda and Army personnel and others like that are in occupations and professions where they can be moved from one area of the country to another. It is good for them to know the type of house so that their furniture and fittings can match in along with it.

Part of the money allocated to the National Building Agency to provide houses for industry may, in some instances, be allotted towards the provision of roads. Roads may be the responsibility of the local authority and some other Government Department, but I think the NBA can spend some of their money in this direction. In the north western area of this country industrialists have experienced great difficulty in getting manufactured goods from the factory out to the ports. As the Minister himself well knows, being a native of the area and knowing these ports, we in County Cavan try to get our goods out to Greenore, Dundalk and Drogheda. More often than not we have to make for Dublin city. I do not know who is responsible for this portion of our roads from Clonee into Dublin city, but so far as we in the north western area are concerned it is certainly detrimental to our prospects for getting extra and especially heavy industry into our area. The National Building Agency, or whoever is responsible, should see that something is done about that immediately, if at all possible.

In that north western area we are not in a very advantageous geographical position because of political divisions in our country. It would have been very interesting if the Minister had been able to supply us here with a list of where these houses had been built. I would also have been interested to know if many of them would go into that area. No nation can tolerate certain areas within its boundaries where the population is still declining and out of which people are moving because employment is not being provided. It is the duty of the Government to ensure that there are proper roadways and proper facilities for industrialists from the ports right into the very heart of these areas. As a matter of fact, they could lean backwards to facilitate places like Killeshandra, Ballinamore, Cavan and Donegal — places like that that are far away from the ports. In many of those areas the houses are there already, and the people are there. Young people used to emigrate 20 or 30 years ago, but thanks to the thinking of wise men like Seán Lemass regarding industries, industries have sprung up in those areas and young people are now determined to stay at home. They are no longer anxious to emigrate. They are receiving a reasonable chance of getting not alone a good primary education but post-primary and third-level education. They would like to stay in their own country. In a country like ours, where the population is now increasing, more attention should be paid to areas such as these. Houses and other facilities should be provided for the Garda and Army and those working in industry. There should be a greater effort made. I took a special pride in Shannon Airport, Cork and Waterford and places like that. They now have their industrial estates and so on.

There is no industrial estate in the north western area. Surely if a case could be made in the past for putting industrial estates in these other areas, it is time now for somebody to give that area of our country the encouragement it badly needs. The people are there. They are good, willing workers and are anxious to stay in the area. The NBA have been doing a very good job. I would not like to stand in the way of their receiving the extra finance that is necessary to continue on with the work, but I would be glad if the Minister would bring to the notice the few points I have raised.

Mr. McAuliffe

I welcome this Bill. There is one particular part of the Bill with which I was very impressed, and that is the provision in relation to the outlay of these housing schemes. Quite an amount of work that has been done by the NBA will in time become an eyesore. There is one particular scheme that I have in mind — the one in Leixlip. It will turn into a slum in a few years. The people who went into these houses were young married people without families; families are growing up in them now; there are no open spaces for them, there are narrow roads and alleyways. I do not think that is the type of building that should be done by the NBA.

I was very pleased with what the Minister has stated here. He has given instruction that all these matters will have to be looked into in future when the NBA are providing houses. All we are concerned with here today is providing more money for the NBA to proceed with their work as a result of industrial expansion. A debate on the general housing programme does not arise at all to-day. As a matter of fact, the amount of housing we are dealing with under the NBA up to now is approximately 1 per cent of our total housing needs. None of us will deny that the NBA are doing quite a good job. In towns like Mullingar, into which industries have been coming during the past year, we have been in touch with the NBA and we hope to provide land with proper sites and proper facilities — water and sewerage laid on — so that they can proceed with the work in the shortest time possible.

I was really surprised at Senator McGlinchey here today complaining about the low standards that were evident in the NBA housing schemes, because at that time a Fianna Fáil Deputy was Minister for Local Government and he did not do anything about it. He just let them throw up houses. The theme was: "Give us houses and we do not care what happens afterwards." The most important thing that has been said by the Minister today is that we will not have a jungle any more, as has been created in the past.

As regards the houses themselves, the engineers or architects responsible for planning these houses have shown very little imagination. Where there are 500 or 600 houses together, they are all the same design. In fact, if you were going home at night and the lights were not on you would not have a chance of getting to your own. They are so much alike that you might have to knock at two or three doors before you would locate your own house. I have seen the same thing in Limerick and in various other places. It is very hard to know which house is which. I should like to see more imagination in the building of these houses. I should like to see one group of houses built in a certain way and another with different architecture in order to bring a bit of variety into the houses.

There were complaints about the roads. I would agree that it is a very valid complaint. The roads are too narrow. At present, even though people have garages, many of them have been turned into some sort of washroom or back-kitchen. People do not put their cars into these garages. The cars are left on the roadside. For that reason the roads would require to be much wider because cars are parked on both sides.

I am glad to support the Minister in regard to the provision of this money so that houses may be provided by the NBA wherever they are required because of industrial development.

Mr. Brosnan

Like the other Senators, I too, welcome the Bill. My only quarrel with the Minister would be about the inadequacy of the amount of money he is seeking. He is seeking that the limit of £2 million, as provided by the Principal Act, should be raised to £5 million. To my mind, this bears no relationship whatsoever to the needs of the agency at the moment having regard to the increased costs of building houses, materials, lands, labour and having regard to the dramatic increase in industrial expansion in the interim. I think the Minister is trying to put me right on the amount.

Mr. Tully

The sum is £15 million.

Mr. Brosnan

The £2 million in 1963 and the £5 million in 1969 were not adequate. The Minister mentioned in his speech the number of houses envisaged for various parts of the country. Like Senator Russell, I do not agree that the numbers he mentioned for Limerick are sufficient. Neither is the number he has in mind for Cork city and county. The increased housing required as a result of the starting of the new industries which are apparently to be established in Bantry Bay and Little Island would necessitate a large number of houses and a very large portion of the £15 million the Minister has in mind.

It seems to me that the NBA have lost quite a lot of their enterprise and inventiveness over the years. There are many areas in which they could do very useful work. There are a number of categories which could be catered for and which are not catered for at all by local authorities or by any other agency I know of. I speak particularly of returning exile workers, tradesmen or others who find that they are disqualified or barred from applying for local authority housing by the non-residence rule. The same would apply to migratory workers. I mean by migratory workers workers who migrate from one area of activity to a more intensive area of industrial activity. They do not qualify either for local authority housing. Members of the Garda Síochána have been catered for to some extent but there is further need for the provision of houses for both the Garda Síochána and the Army. The army personnel in Spike Island have had several problems because they do not qualify for housing in the Cobh area. I would ask the Minister to get in touch with the Army authorities in Spike Island and Haulbowline in regard to providing housing for these people.

In the case of the Garda, I know that the NBA built a number of houses for their use in the town of Midleton. No purchase scheme was available to members of the Garda. For that reason the Gardaí left the agency house and built their own houses. The agency should play a more active role. I would envisage them as a kind of commando task force who would have more latitude and freedom of action in dealing with problems as and when they found them.

Mr. Lyons

I wish to welcome this Bill and to congratulate the Minister on having decided to treble the amount of capital to be infused into the work of the National Building Agency. It shows the confidence of the Minister in the future of the country, in its industrial expansion and its population expansion. The Minister is asking the House to sanction the raising of £15 million for housing purposes. We are sure that, with good forward planning and with good government, what the Minister envisages will come to pass in the years to come. We have to admit that mistakes were made by the NBA in the past in regard to the type of house that was provided and the type of environment in which the houses were set. Perhaps the NBA should not be blamed entirely for this. Perhaps in future mistakes will be made, but it is realised that there will always be a conflict between needs and standards in housing. If the need arises for a crash programme of housing, the standards are bound to drop. A careful assessment of needs and standards will have to be made in the future. We know that in the low-cost building schemes carried out by the NBA the houses today look like those found in a foreign country. They do not fit into the environment and never will. They will probably deteriorate to an alarming extent in the years to come. Perhaps in some cases this could not have been avoided. When young couples need housing, when there is overcrowding or other conditions which lead to a housing need, conditions such as storm damage or flooding, detailed planning is not possible in order to provide houses that might look well in the future and might also be functionally correct.

The Minister has stated that in future attention will be paid to the environmental position and to the standard of the houses. As was mentioned by other speakers this evening, one must have variety in roofing, in walling and in general layout. Nothing is so distressing as to see a couple of hundred houses that look exactly the same.

I hope that when schemes are being planned with a large number of houses the NBA will have a study made of the necessary amenities to be incorporated in the design. Open spaces, shrubs, trees and flower-beds are needed. I would not agree with some of the speakers this evening who said that very wide roads must be provided in these housing areas. That is a mistake considering the price of building land at the moment. Money cannot be spent on very wide roads. The best idea is to have car-parking spaces or even a garage area, where cars would all be put into a specially designed building, rather than into garages attached to the houses. Most newly married couples cannot afford to buy very large houses but when the families have increased they turn the garage space into a living-room or some other functional room instead of using it for the car.

The situation in housing schemes should be examined. Perhaps cars could be put into a planned building, with each man having his lock and key. In that way road space could be saved. All the width needed is sufficient to allow two cars or trucks to pass. This would be approximately 17 feet. This would save a tremendous amount of money. If there is a 24-foot road, with cars parked on each side, maintaining the flow of traffic will cause great problems.

I am glad to see the Minister envisages that 1,000 houses will be needed in County Mayo. We hope that in the immediate future the plans of the Chicago Bridge and Iron Company for the erection of oil-drilling rigs at Killala will come to fruition. Land has already been acquired and a Japanese firm have acquired 400 acres of land in that immediate vicinity. We are delighted that this has happened and we hope that when the occasion arises the NBA will get the go-ahead.

I do not think there will be any problems with regard to the Mayo County Council in relation to this matter. They have given every planning facility to the firms who propose to start there. Houses are needed in the areas around Ballina, Killala, Crossmolina, Ballycastle and other small towns, where 3,000 workers are expected to reside during the next two or three years. I hope that the environmental, housing and road conditions will be properly planned in the early stages and that the mistakes that have occurred in the past will not occur again.

I want to congratulate the Minister on introducing this Bill and hope that he will not be disappointed with the progress that is envisaged in it.

Mr. Cowen

I, too, welcome this Bill as its purpose is to raise capital money to finance the expanding programme of housing for industry. In reading the Minister's speech, I should like to raise the following points. There are five counties mentioned here and there are 130 houses per year for the coming five years for Galway, that is a total of 650; 274 for Donegal; 200 for Limerick; and 1,000 for Mayo. On that basis alone I want an assurance from the Minister that the money to be spent is not to be spent on a regional basis. If the proposals for those counties are examined it would appear that the money seems to be directed towards western development.

Cork is also mentioned with a total of 500 houses in the coming five years. The reason I raise this point is that although there are 30 areas mentioned the midland region seems to be left out. I cannot recollect many houses being built by the National Building Agency in the midland region. The NBA came into existence only in 1960. There were quite a number of houses built in my own county of Offaly. I know that Bord na Móna are their own building agency and have built their own houses. The ESB have a number of houses scattered around the county. However, I think — although I am not too sure about this — that most of the ESB houses in County Offaly were built prior to 1960. It is on that basis that I would direct the attention of the Minister to the fact that the programme tends towards western development in the main, although the Minister mentioned other areas as well.

When I talk about Offaly I come back to my own town of Clara, where great industrial development has taken place particularly in the past two to three years. To my knowledge the NBA were interested in providing houses for industrial workers in the town of Clara. Perhaps the Minister would be in a position today to tell me if he is giving priority to that proposal.

I am not confining myself to Clara but wish to refer to the entire Midlands area. It has been very much neglected by the National Building Agency in the past. I would request the Minister to distribute this money on an equitable basis. The number of houses mentioned in the Minister's speech would absorb a large part of the money raised. The Midlands are progressing favourably in regard to industrial development and I would ask the Minister to take this into consideration.

In Offaly there is a need for more and better housing for ESB workers. Shortly we will have an extension to the Shannonbridge power station. This will naturally involve a housing scheme for that area. On that basis also I would ask the Minister to ensure that the moneys raised will be spent on an equitable basis.

Mr. W. O'Brien

Like previous speakers, not alone am I prepared to welcome the Bill but I should like to take the opportunity of welcoming the necessity for the Bill. It augurs well that there is so much confidence in the future.

The NBA are doing a very fine job of work. We have had experience of them in Limerick where they are undertaking a scheme of 42 houses, 30 for industrial workers and 12 for the local authority. Our local authority engineers visit the building sites very often and supervise within their own capacity, but I have a doubt as to whether there is sufficient agreement and co-ordination between the local authority engineers and the NBA. I was disappointed in the Minister's forecast for west Limerick in the next five years. We have acquired a very big industry and not alone are we looking forward to housing our people there but we are also looking forward to bringing back the people who emigrated from west Limerick in the past 20 years.

The Minister does not seem to be fully aware of the amount of prosperity in the country. There is a shortage of contractors in my county and during the past seven or eight months the raising of the ceiling of the loan under the SDA scheme has created an incentive. I am glad to say that Limerick County Council have paid out more in loans in the past nine months than was ever paid out in any nine months in the past 25 years. I am not praising Limerick but I should like to pay a tribute to our county council. We have a wonderful county council but the Minister will have to revise his assessment of our potential.

I wish to congratulate the Minister on what he is doing and to welcome the Bill. I sincerely hope the NBA will do as well during the next seven, eight or ten years as they have done in the past.

Mr. Garrett

I should like to draw the Minister's attention to a few points. First of all I should like to welcome the Bill. Like other Senators, however, I think it has not gone far enough. Instead of looking for £15 million it would be more appropriate if we were looking for £35 million to accommodate the NBA. I do not wish to repeat anything that has already been said on environment and planning. It has been suggested that they build a different type of house in the same locality. Some planning authorities will not allow any deviation from the landscape, the environment and the plan that is already there. They insist on that being carried out.

I should like to draw the Minister's attention to the number of industries we are to get in the west of Ireland in the very near future. Some of them have been started since last Monday and some of them had started previous to that. In the Ballina area 1,000 houses will have to be built not to mention what will be needed for the whole of County Mayo. If the Land Commission move to Castlebar at some future date there will not be much sense in transferring young ladies to work in the Land Commission in Castlebar or in bringing in industrialists to work in industrial estates in the Ballina, Crossmolina or Killala areas unless something can be done to entice the NBA to build a type of flatlet or small house.

Through Mayo County Council and the county development team, we have tried to get the NBA to build that type of living accommodation but they will not do so. It is necessary that some organisation should be set up to build that type of flat for young people who may go to work in those towns. That is the principal necessity in our county at present.

I should like to impress on the Minister that there will be huge developments in the Killala/Ballina area and if he could get the NBA to consider the idea of building flatlets, having rent collectors or caretakers to look after them, it would be a step in the right direction. At present the NBA can only build for local authorities or industrialists within a certain plan. I do not know of any other authority who would undertake this building. I should like to hear from the Minister if he can in any way influence them to undertake this work.

Mr. Kerrigan

In extending a welcome to this Bill which enables the NBA to extend their borrowing powers, I do so with a little reluctance. Though I am aware from the annual report of the NBA and from talking to people from different parts of the country that there are many good schemes because of the good work of the NBA, I will have to sound a note of warning. In February, 1965, Cork Corporation were worried about their housing output. It was in no way adequate to meet the heavy demands, so in a discussion with the trade union movement and the builders we explored the possibility of erecting 2,800 local authority houses over a number of years. In July, 1965, agreement was reached. At that time the output of houses was averaging 200 a year, by the corporation's own direct labour schemes and partly by local contracts. At that time the corporation had land available at Togher, Mayfield and Glen, approximately 260 acres of land, and the Department of Local Government were doubtful about the corporation's ability or capacity to do this work. They asked that such work would be handed over to the NBA who would build 1,800 dwellings.

The contract between the NBA and the contractors was drawn up in May, 1968, and the final handover was made in 1972. Within a relatively short time 800 houses were built in Cork but as time passed the flow of complaints and problems from the tenants grew in volume and it was obvious that the cause of the dissatisfaction was much more serious than the normal pattern expected from tenants of any new housing scheme. These problems could be classified in four categories— financial, environmental, dwelling design and defects. On the financial aspect, the houses cost an average of £4,500. This immediately created a high rent and a high maximum on the houses and I am glad to congratulate the Minister and say that since he took office he has helped to alleviate that position.

From the environmental point of view all the 1,200 houses were identical. They were built in blocks of six and had no front gardens. The design was an open plan. Store houses for prams, bicycles, coal, and costs were placed outside front doors. The inner sections of the scheme were pedestrianised. Now we find that refuse vehicles cannot get full access to it and therefore tenants have to haul refuse all over the scheme to get it out to the roadside.

With regard to the dwelling design, nearly 500 houses were provided with gas central heating. No fireplaces were provided in these houses and the central heating was unacceptable to most tenants. In the initial stages explosions occurred in several houses. The windows were of large plate glass, tenants are responsible for the breakages of these windows and these are quite expensive. A point made by numerous people is that upstairs windows open by sash on top only. This constitutes a fire hazard.

In the 700 solid fuel houses, for economy purposes the traditional flue liner in concrete construction was abandoned and replaced by a sectional stainless steel insulator flue. This treatment in construction did not meet with the Chief Fire Officer's standards and amendments had to be made to all houses.

The standard range of minor defects are normal in such a scheme but one defect which emerged was a high proportion of houses that had a type of discolouration on the walls, particularly around windows. Some householders succeeded in keeping it at bay, but in other houses nothing stopped it. One wall in one house was treated three times in six weeks by the contractors but it still returned. This particular problem has been referred to a British agency with expertise in such matters. A report has been forthcoming and it is being examined.

I think there is something wrong with the basic contract for such schemes. The NBA and the contractors being the only parties to the contract, the result was a complete lack of involvement of corporation officers during progress of the work. In effect, Cork Corporation or their officers had no responsibility and this resulted in disinterest and lack of liaison during the term of the contract. It will be recalled that the corporation were first allowed sight of the plans and layouts on 26th January, 1968. The final signing of the contract was executed on 30th May, 1968. For a project of such size, the time afforded allowed little opportunity for the technical officers of the corporation to evaluate all aspects of the proposed scheme. In fact, work commenced immediately after the contract was signed while corporation officers were still in the process of correspondence seeking clarification of various design points and so on. The final signing of such a contract should have been deferred until all the corporation officers concerned had been afforded the opportunity to examine fully all proposals and to record the approval of them.

To deprive 1,200 local authority tenants of the front gardens to which they were traditionally accustomed was a drastic change. There have been objections incessantly on this matter and many tenants have proceeded to fence in their own plots, often in an unsightly manner.

The provision of gas central heating in 500 houses was another point that should be watched in future. No fireplace was provided. The central heating unit was selected and installed without consultation with the local gas supply company. Still this local gas company are expected to service these units as well as supply the gas. Coin meters could not be used for fear of explosion so tenants were faced with large quarterly bills which they could not meet. As a result, quite a lot of them have been cut off.

The report on the most prevalent complaint of all — the fungus, as the tenants usually describe it — is subjudice, until such time as the contractors and the National Building Agency debate the experts' report. In future we should be more than careful with schemes of such a size. Experimentation should be made on small sites and small schemes. I feel that this scheme was too large for experimentation and for that reason I am very critical of the National Building Agency. I have spoken to people in other parts of the country who have had traditional houses built but I should like to state that these are not traditional houses. They are system type houses. I do not think we have had enough experience to have tried it out in such a large scheme.

Professor Quinlan

We can all join in welcoming this Bill. The National Building Agency are an essential part of the task of getting buildings put up for industrial developments in areas where these come rather quickly. I share a number of the criticisms of the schemes made both in the other House and here — for example, their drabness and in many cases their lack of proper environmental planning. This of course is to be expected to some extent when we cost the complete criteria. It is shortsighted. We should insist that each of those areas is properly provided with a full community centre that will provide an integral development of that community. Even though this may cost quite an amount, it is something that I would be very happy to see borne by this State agency and I think it would make a very positive contribution to the future development of communities. I would go further and say it would prevent many of the social problems that we have with us in some of our communities, where a great deal of them can be traced to the lack of proper recreational and other facilities. At a time when we have some confidence in the future— and I think all parties share this confidence — we should show this confidence by the level of planning that we put into such development.

We are concerned about the cost of this. The Minister has alluded to it here — the increase of £10 million necessary to finance this. The provision of housing is one thing, financing is something that should be tackled on a different level. With today's high interest rates every inducement should be held out to the people getting those houses to purchase them over a reasonable period. Taking a 20 year purchase scheme the addition for just paying off the capital is only 5 per cent whereas the interest is costing anything from 12 to 14 per cent. When you have high interest rates the extra little effort to pay a few more per cent and become owners is a good investment for the owners concerned. It is an even better investment for the local authority, who are concerned with regulating and with financing that housing scheme. Even if they had to pay half the capital involved immediately, it still would be well to induce the tenants to pay some extra percentage and thereby become owners.

Also, no scheme should be sanctioned until it has incorporated in each house scope for future development: that should be part of the initial plan and the tenant should know of this development potential in the house so that maybe in five or ten years' time, when he needs to add an extra room or two, he will find there is provision for this in the plan and that a sketch is available to show how in the judgment of the original architect the addition could best be carried out.

In industry today there has been considerable improvement in the earning capacity of the workers. That should be reflected in the workers, or a large proportion of them, aspiring to ownership and having the pride of ownership in their homes. Otherwise we are contributing to the development of a type of a classless society that has no roots and no pride in its environment. It is only through cultivating the ideal of ownership that we can get the pride of citizenship so necessary today. It is only through an adequate and properly serviced and developed community centre that we can prevent those masses of houses from degenerating into the concrete jungles that have plagued other countries. We need to develop a community spirit here, community spirit that I hope will be Irish in the best sense of the word.

Mr. Markey

The Bill goes some way towards meeting the projected demand for industrial housing in the years to come. The data given by the Minister in his opening speech raises a couple of questions which perhaps should receive some consideration in his reply. He referred to demand from the western seaboard, the southern seaboard and the north-western seaboard. It strikes me that where the IDA have gone into designated areas, the NBA have gone in also and done the job as requested or required by the IDA. My experience on these counts is that where local authorities have found themselves having to supply housing for key industrial workers from the normal housing stock, this would appear to me to be an area in which the National Building Agency should have been doing the job. It may well be that resources of the NBA in the past have been somewhat limited, partly as part of an overall policy between the IDA and themselves. As I have already indicated, they have gone where the IDA have gone and have supplied houses as required in those areas, particularly in the designated areas.

Local authorities along the eastern and north-eastern seaboard areas have very dense population and they find themselves hard pressed to meet their own housing needs. It strikes me as strange that the NBA do not seem to be coming into these areas and to be fulfilling to any great extent the housing requirements of industrial workers. I think of an example in Dundalk some years ago where the county manager was requested at short notice to find houses out of his existing local authority's stock to house key workers who had been brought in from outside the county. By all means, it was a commendable thing that the houses were there to meet this need, but it also left the position that certain local applicants for housing had to stand down from their place in the queue.

I would ask the Minister to give some indication whether there has been what he would regard as a reasonable and a worthy demand from the IDA for housing requirements to be met by the NBA, particularly on the east coast and in the north-eastern area. The National Building Agency have done great work. They are a growing baby, as it were, in the field of industrial housing and, like any baby, should not be stunted in their growth. I have only that one reservation—that the NBA should try to operate in a slightly larger field than the Minister has indicated to us.

Mr. Keegan

Since the NBA were established they have performed a useful role in providing this country with some of the houses which its people required. They have performed a service which measures up to the best we could expect. The fact that there is need to allow the agency to acquire further finance is a clear indication of the role they will play in the future. Therefore, it is important that the NBA be assisted in every way possible to ensure that we have a supply of houses to meet demands. I have always stated, and I state it again, that we can all rejoice at the fact that there is demand for houses, because if the day ever comes when there ceases to be a demand for houses then we can all start to worry because it will mean that our nation is becoming stagnant. So long as the demand for houses continues to grow we can all feel content and satisfied that our nation and its people are making progress.

One serious set-back to any building agency is the lack of suitable building land. I would ask the Minister and his Parliamentary Secretary if they would add new functions and new powers to the NBA to enable them to acquire land for future building, because the price of building land has become a major factor in house costs in recent years. If the Minister has not power to enable the NBA to broaden their activities, then I say that a new agency should be established to acquire land for future house building. The activities of such an agency should be concentrated in rural areas because we all know that suitable building land adjoining any town has increased in price many times over because of the fact that people want to reside near suitable towns. But with the advent of regional water schemes, I see no reason why we cannot move out into the rural areas and provide suitable group schemes serviced by water and sewerage so that houses can be provided at a lower cost. After all, I think it is the general inclination of many new house owners to reside in peace and quiet. There is no doubt that they will have that peace and quiet out in the rural areas. They will also have all the amenities which can be afforded to them in built-up areas.

The Minister and his Department should give serious consideration to the setting up of an authority or a new agency and give them full powers to acquire land to carry out advanced planning because we all know how many local authorities can be held back for years in their efforts compulsorily to acquire land for housing. We know that many towns in rural Ireland have lost industries because of the failure of local authorities to acquire land and because of the long drawn out process of instituting compulsory acquisition orders. I would give my full support to any efforts the Minister or his Department would make to establish such an agency with powers to acquire land.

The National Building Agency should give some consideration to the provision of demountable dwellings— houses that could be taken up and reerected in other areas. Whenever a major industry is about to be established in an area you will have a great deal of site development and you will have a great deal of planning, engineering, installation of water and sewerage. Therefore the engagement of many people is required in order to carry out all the advance work necessary for the establishment of an industry. When the actual industry itself is established the labour content of that industry may be only a quarter or a fifth of the labour force needed to set up the industry. If we had a scheme of demountable dwellings which could be used while the workers are engaged in the establishment of the industry, those demountable dwellings could be removed easily and sited in some other area. I think it is worthy of consideration.

It has been suggested too, of course, that the contractors who are on the panel of the NBA are inclined to operate a closed shop. That is detrimental to competitors tendering and to greater competition in the building industry. It also tends to debar the small builder from participating in the scheme. Again that is something that should be looked at and I am sure that the Minister, his Parliamentary Secretary and his officials in the Department will give it serious consideration.

It is also worth mentioning that we are talking about this Bill at a time of a serious fuel crisis. New thinking must be done on the design of houses so that every effort will be made to erect a dwelling which will require a minimum of heat. We should have new methods of designing buildings. We should have greater emphasis placed on draught-proofing. The cost of heating any of our new buildings will be prohibitive and I do not see any signs of this country ever being supplied with cheap heating oil again. As we all know homes must be heated. Therefore, greater efforts must be made to provide adequate insulation to ensure that homes can be kept at a warmer temperature with the minimum of cost.

I am disappointed that in the Minister's speech no reference whatsoever has been made to any advance building in the Midlands. I do not know why he picked those regions, possibly because of the fact that the contractors in the Midlands are capable of dealing with the amount of building which is being done. I would have been pleased if the activities of the National Building Agency were directed towards providing houses in County Westmeath which is in the heart of the Midlands. There is need for such development there. It is good that there is always need for the erection of houses.

I should like to see greater variety in house design. This is an aspect that is worthy of serious consideration because it can be boring to see scheme after scheme of houses all erected on similar lines. We should ensure as far as possible that we would have well designed groups of houses erected in rural areas convenient to industries and to towns where all the requirements and necessities of life can be purchased. The more houses we group together, the more people we will have congregating together and the more we are inclined to create that sick society.

This takes me back to the problem of acquiring building land. Every builder tries to erect as many houses as possible in the smallest space possible. There are thousands of acres of land in rural Ireland awaiting development and serious consideration must be given to making use of all this land. Whenever a scheme is designed it is necessary that provision be made for having adequate recreational facilities. Leisure-time facilities must be provided for children, for the old and for others.

That is all I wish to say on this Bill. I join with the other speakers in their comments on the activities of the NBA and I suggest that serious consideration be given to establishing an agency which would have full powers to acquire land.

Mr. A. O'Brien

I should like to join in the congratulations extended to the Minister from all sides of the House on the introduction of this Bill. I welcome in particular the raising of the limit of the amount to be borrowed by the National Building Agency from £5 million to £15 million and, also, the increase from 150 to 600 in the number of houses to be built. That is a clear indication of the Minister's faith in the industrial development of the country. I should like also to draw attention to the cases specifically mentioned here with regard to development in Mayo, Donegal and Cork, particularly in regard to Mayo and Donegal. These are counties which could do with a greater injection of capital and with the promotion of local industries. I welcome the suggested number of houses to be erected in these two counties. Cavan and Leitrim are two of the three counties that showed a continued decline in population in the last census. While I do not take it that the fact that they are not specifically mentioned here means that industrial development is not foreseen for that part of the country, I should like to remind the Minister that these are areas that show a continued decline in population. The further south you go in the country it is not generally realised that Partition, apart from being a national problem, is also an economic one as it affects the parts of the country which are along the Border. Development in counties Cavan, Leitrim and Donegal, which are situated along the Border, has been inhibited. Economic development has been inhibited by the existence of the Border. Further industrial development and the provision of housing to attract key industrial workers and management personnel would tend to reduce the economic difficulties that have arisen and developed as a result of Partition.

I should like to pay a tribute to the Minister for his assurance that he has given instructions and has asked that greater attention be paid to planning and to the environment when houses are being constructed by the National Building Agency. It would be agreed generally that to erect a number of houses for families with large numbers of children and to make no effort to provide a playing place for these growing children could prove to be a strong factor in juvenile delinquency. In all housing schemes in the future, whether they are under the National Building Agency or local authorities or whatever, it should be accepted that there is adequate provision for recreational facilities for children. In so far as the Minister is striving to attain that, he is to be congratulated sincerely. The point raised by Senator Markey is very valid. In some cases local authorities, in order to assist in attracting industries to their own areas, have had to make available for key workers in an industry houses that were erected by the local authority. I cite the specific case of Bailieboro, where the Cavan County Council built 20 houses recently. It was considered by the council that it would be a wise thing to allocate four or these houses to key workers being attracted to industry in the town of Bailieboro. That is a case where the National Building Agency could step in and supplement the work of the local authority.

There is a great deal to be said for having some distinctive characteristic in different housing estates. There is nothing more likely to dampen pride in your surroundings than to have rows of houses all of uniform design with no outstanding characteristics. It should be part of the aim of housing authorities to ensure that one row of houses is not identical with another. If that is done the occupants of the houses will have more pride in their own area. These people could, by the planting of shrubs and so on, add something to the beauty or attractiveness of the houses in which they live. If all the houses are built on exactly the same plan, then there is a strong danger that people might lose pride in the home as distinct from pride in the house.

The Minister has indicated that more thought will be given to the planning and the development of special amenities for housing estates. In that way the Minister is performing a very great service. Before he became Minister he was for years an active member of a local authority. The experience he gained there of the deficiencies and of the lack of novelty and variety in these housing estates he is putting to good use now and is helping to create a different kind of approach to the building of houses.

Dr. West

I reckon that about one-third of our time in the Seanad and perhaps in the whole of the Oireachtas is spent discussing Bills of this nature — Bills under which we are voting sums of money or increases in borrowing power to State bodies or semiState organisations. The general welcome that Bills of this nature get indicates that we recognise the need for such bodies in this country. We are not a very rich country and it is essential that the Government and their agencies should step in and fill the gaps which cannot be filled by private industry or financed by the ordinary means.

Last week we voted a sum of practically £50 million towards CIE. There are various ways in which the money could be spent or borrowing powers taken up. This week we are discussing the increase in the borrowing power of the National Building Agency by £10 million. The one thing that worries me about these debates is that we always seem to be signing blank cheques. We vote an increase in borrowing power of £10 million without any real indication from the Minister, except for fairly vague and woolly statements in his speech, how the money will be spent. We are to have no detailed account until the National Building Agency produce their report for the current year.

However, arguing for more detail does not mean that I do not support the spirit of the Bill, because I certainly do. I am pleased to see the number of new houses being built. I would join with the other Senators in their general comments about the preservation of the environment, about the need for community development and for houses in areas where there is new industry. I am particularly pleased to see that in County Cork there is an expectation of about 500 industrial houses being built in the near future. I hope that some of this development will be channelled towards Midleton, which is a rapidly growing industrial area and where the major distilling complex in the country is being built at the moment by Irish Distillers. There will be a rapid and large increase in employment there and a considerable expansion in industry.

The basic philosophy behind the National Building Agency is one which we all support.

There are problems to be borne in mind when we discuss the provision of houses, for example, as many Members have already pointed out, there is the problem of the cost of land.

I should like to see some rapid Government action along the lines recommended in the Kenny Report. I am a bit distressed by the Government statement of the 26th January, 1974, which says that they accept in principle the concept suggested in the majority report in that document but that they intend to delay decisions pending consultation with all the interested bodies. It is the second part of this statement that worries me — the delayed decision pending consultation. This can often mean in political terms that a decision is being put off for good and all. We have seen so many examples of this over the whole political life of this country. Statements like this are really cloaking the fact that Governments do not want to take decisions which are unpopular with some sections of the community but are necessary for the community's good as a whole. I would urge the Government to get on with these consultations and start taking a few decisions. Then I will say they are being a Government, not just a consulative body which are discussing matter ad infinitum and never reaching any decisions. This is a malaise that affects all Governments. The test of this Government is whether they can reach decisions and subsequently, implement them. This is the test of a Government, not the fact that they go around consulting with all and sundry — because that of course can be used as a great delaying tactic.

I should like to see the Kenny Report being implemented and I should like to see the designated areas scheme being put into operation quickly. My personal preference would be for a more drastic scheme involving land acquisition and land nationalisation. I realise that, as the report suggests, this might conflict with Article 43 of the Constitution.

An Cathaoirleach

I would prefer if the Senator would not go into detail on this point; though it is generally relevant to the National Building Agency a detailed discussion would not be appropriate.

Dr. West

I appreciate that fact and I do not intend to go into a detailed discussion now. I feel however that this matter is of such importance that it should be put down for debate as a motion before the Seanad. I hope to do this. Clearly the decision on the acquisition of building lands affects the operation of the National Building Agency. A clear and definite decision by the Government on this matter would facilitate the National Building Agency in future planning and financing and these are the issues we are talking about now.

Several Senators have mentioned that since the NBA are a Government agency, they should take the lead in matters of environmental planning. It is proper that a Government agency should not be behind private developers. They should be in the forefront when it comes to planning, the preservation of the environment and matters of community development and community good.

I should like to refer to one specific matter. I have a charming picture here of the Minister being presented with a copy of the An Taisce Report, The Case for Tree Preservation in Ireland. I am sorry that the Parliamentary Secretary is not in the picture as well. No doubt he would have added to the glamour of the occasion. This is an important report produced by a responsible body. It particularly affects development in urban areas. It is sad to record and to read in this report that the local authorities have not been blameless in the matter of cutting down trees, trees which do so much for the urban areas in which they grow. The local authorities have not been to the fore in putting on tree preservation orders to ensure that the trees in areas scheduled for development are preserved. This is something of importance; it is a matter in which the National Building Agency should set an example for the rest of the country. We should not have to continually urge local authorities to look at problems of the environment. They should be taking the lead and setting examples for private developers. I hope the Minister will not ignore the fact that the environment has been referred to by many other speakers and will ensure that the National Building Agency take this into account in their future developments.

Finally, I should like to say that I think the agency do a good job. I am pleased to see an increase in their borrowing power. I agree that it is important to encourage the residents to acquire their own houses over specified periods because it helps to give them pride in their dwellings and something that one owns oneself is something that one will treasure and look after. I welcome the Bill.

Mr. Kilbride

I also welcome the Bill. As a member of a local authority I am aware of housing requirements and housing needs generally. My only regret is that, instead of authorising £15 million, the Bill does not seek £20 million or £25 million for the expansion and improvement of housing generally. When the NBA came into being they were envisaged by many as an organisation that would be efficient and thorough in the execution of building in areas where factories were to be set up and where there was demand for housing over and above the ordinary requirement's that normally confront local authorities.

Senator O'Brien made reference to something that happened in Cavan, something to which I also must refer. There was a similar occurrence in Longford. As a result of the setting up of a welcome industry in Longford, 11 or 12 local authority houses were occupied by key workers and operators. The Minister's speech sounded rather hollow in our ears since it is Cork and the western and north-western seaboards that are to benefit most from the increased moneys to be provided. I wish to refer to towns such as Longford, Mullingar and Granard, where industries are already set up by the IDA. I had the pleasure of being present at the opening of an industry in Granard where we were informed that 300 workers would be required over the next three years. If expansion is going to be that rapid it is into a place like this that the Minister and the National Building Agency should be directing money for the immediate provision of houses. Housing requirement has to do with people and, irrespective of whether you are working in a new industry or whether you are a key official in a public authority, or an official of the Government, you require a house. What authority provides a house for you should be determined on whether you are somebody new coming in as a result of an industry, as a result of a new school, and so on, or whether you are the ordinary type of person who requires a house as a result of growth in the town population. It is wrong that a local authority should make a survey of the housing needs of the working-class in, say, 1971 or 1972, and erect these houses in 1974. When the scheme is finished, they say: "You people who required these houses and whom we took account of when drawing up the scheme cannot get a third of the houses, because they must be kept for key workers—people who are coming here and who never before put their foot in this town." That is not fair. The Industrial Development Authority and the National Building Agency should co-operate in determining what number of houses are required in an area. When an industry is being set up the National Building Agency should get a direction to provide a certain number of houses—say, 60, 80 or 100. As a result of the experience of many members of public authorities, this is the most appropriate way in which the NBA could pursue the policy of easing the housing difficulty and leaving the local authorities to deal with the ordinary problems that arise in their own sphere of activities.

Secondly, the planning of the environmental location, structuring and lay-out of houses is something that I subscribe to. I concede that if an industry is set up, a housing scheme should be in proximity to it. If it is in a housing area on one side of a town, the NBA or the local authority should provide a layout for the houses that would give an image of beauty and preserve the natural beauty of the area. It is a pity to see a row of brown-tiled or green-tiled houses, or so many houses that if you walked into one house and came out and went into another 100 houses away, you could not see any difference in appearance of them. They should be some variation which might be regarded as a concession to beauty and art.

The Minister would do well to consider industrial areas in the Midlands where there is a likelihood of an expansion of population. While he is being fair in dealing with the western counties, Longford is one of the 12 western counties. It is one of the counties that needs an industrial boost. In order to give an impetus towards industrial development and an increase in employment, there must be an increase in housing accommodation for the people who will work there. While I welcome the IDA's efforts to provide factories and welcome the people who come to work in those industries, I should like them to come to stay—not to come and collect a package and go away. The counties that need the greatest help should get it soon.

I have great pleasure in complimenting the Minister and I wish him the very best of luck with this Bill.

Mr. Killilea

Like the previous speakers, I, too, welcome this Bill, but with reservations. As Senators Garrett and Kilbride have said, the amount sought falls short of requirements. In 1969, when we were in Government, I said in this House— it can be read in the Official Report —that the NBA were not looking for half enough money. Time has proved me right, particularly when I see a reference by the Minister to the low-cost housing project. The reason why we had to have a low-cost housing project was that we did not ask or get enough money then. With the amount of money that is now being asked for, we will have at the end of the term another low-cost housing project, because at least twice as much money should have been sought.

At the same time, I welcome the Bill because it is serving a particular area, that is, the west coast. This is an area which, much to the amazement of everybody, has increased industrial employment. There has been less emigration over the last ten years. It is at last, a thriving part of this island.

However, enough has not been done by the National Building Agency in that area. For instance, in Tuam we have had several new industries over the last three or four years and the burden of housing the workers in those industries has fallen on the local council and the local town commissioners. We have made efforts to house them but we have not much money available to us. This is an area where the National Building Agency could have and should have helped out, especially when we in the Galway County Council tried to help.

I note, too, what has been said by the Minister with regard to Mayo and I do not like the wording of it. Senator Garrett is the chairman of Mayo County Council and I am sure he is well aware that the new industries in Killala are a reality. Two major industries are to be set up there that will need housing from the National Building Agency. The estimate of 1,000 houses for Mayo is a small estimate.

There is a word in the Minister's statement I do not like and I think it should be changed. In the last paragraph of page 2 he says: "The main areas which will benefit from expansion of the agency's industrial housing activities in the next five years are Galway city and county" where 130 houses a year are to be built. There are plans for 274 houses in County Donegal and 200 houses will be needed in County Limerick. Then comes the point. We are told that in County Mayo up to 1,000 houses may be required as a result of the establishment of major new industries. The word "may" should be deleted and the word "will" inserted. I would not like to see any way in which the Minister could slip out of a situation where the National Building Agency will have a commitment because Mayo, Galway or any of the western countries cannot supply on demand a quantity of housing to the extent that will be needed.

In Galway we have learned from experience that it is physically impossible for us, as a local authority, to keep up with the housing expansion required in this field. We hear a lot of talk about land prices but it is the demand that has caused land speculation and high land prices. If the National Building Agency were doing their job correctly and if they will do their job correctly in the future, the local authority would only be a second housing agency. The primary one would be the National Building Agency. I would suggest to the Minister, even at this late stage, to rethink the matter. He should go back and have a look at the figures again and plan, for the next four years, a good National Building Agency programme under which the key workers, skilled and semi-skilled, can be housed and not have the blame thrown back on the local authorities.

Everything in this Bill is not as rosy as it seems. For instance, I have been in this House since 1969 and I have never heard of the excuse being made that everything would be better now. I refer to the first paragraph of page 2 where the Minister has the audacity to say: "I hope that as a result of my directions to the agency and of the augmentation of its board of directors by new members having special experience in housing such inadequacies will not be evident in future schemes." I think he left a piece out of that statement because I am not so naive as to think—and I do not think anybody in this House is—that the important part of getting on this board of directors is that you had special experience in housing. There were some other special experiences you had to have too.

The first consideration would probably be that you would have to give these posts to members of the Fine Gael Party. The second one would be that you would have to give them to members of the Labour Party. I do not know which one would come first. Somehow I think Fine Gael would. And the third one would be that you should know a little bit about housing. I have heard many an excuse put up in this House which said something is going to be cleaned up to make it look better, but this is the best joke I have ever heard used in this House to get out of a situation. That is not a fact at all. The fact is that you have not got enough money and you have not asked for enough money. That is the proper excuse. A few bob to a few directors will not solve the problem, particularly if they are on the Government side of the House, because that is only putting a pack of "yes men" into the job. You are only changing the flag.

The Minister should go back and ask for more money to do the job. It is a job that has to be done, particularly on the western seaboard where the local authorities have not got the money and cannot get it to house those people coming in to work in new industries. It is a commitment that must be seriously looked at. For what it is worth, I welcome the few bob, but another look should be taken at the situation. For instance, if the National Building Agency do not increase their allocations of money the Government must consider giving greater housing grants. They should certainly be increased to double the present amount, particularly in those ares where a demand for housing has been created by new industries.

The type of housing to be built is a matter that I need not go into because I am sure everybody is aware that we must try to improve the houses each time. No matter how good you make them with a limited amount of money, the next time round people will say that they should be made still better, and rightly so. The environment should be protected. We would expect better development and a better type and quality of house in the future. Senator Keegan has well said that, in the designing of houses, we should look into the heating aspect. The cost of heating in houses nowadays is reaching an appalling level. This aspect should get serious consideration by the Government.

Taking this document for what it is worth, there is some effort made to try and help. There are some good jokes in it as well and maybe at the end of the day the Minister may see fit to increase this allocation.

Mr. Harte

There may be some confusion here. Some of the complaints I have heard concerned the amount of housing that would be provided. People were talking in general terms rather than talking about the Bill before the House, which seeks an increase of £10 million for the National Building Agency to supplement local housing authority funds and not to supplant existing schemes.

The Minister in announcing the programme has answered a great many of the criticisms in advance. He said he wanted the National Building Agency to organise on his behalf an emergency housing programme to supplement the maximum output of local authority houses. In other words, there is no question of supplanting what the local authorities are doing. He went on to say that he envisaged the local authorities producing 8,000 houses by the year 1975 or 1976. He offered the local authorities consultation and participation and also the possibility of many tenders and designs.

Under the emergency programme procedures of the EEC he advertised in an EEC journal in accordance with the directives that were laid down by the EEC countries. Looking through the report we find he is not looking for £10 million just for the sake of looking for it. He is looking for £10 million because he says he knows exactly what he is going to do with it. He says he intends that a programme will be concentrated in areas of greatest demand arising either from social conditions or from economic development. He went on to ask the housing authorities to review the position in their own area as a matter of urgency and the indicate the extent to which extra houses would be required under the programme and also the position as to the availability of serviced land and so on. He made clear his intentions that the houses to be provided under the programme would be bigger and of better quality than the present dwellings provided under the guaranteed order project. He also said there should be emphasis on soundness of construction.

Throughout today's debate there has been quite an amount of criticism. If some of the things that were alleged prove to be true, then the criticism is quite justifiable. But whether those things are taken care of when this Bill is before the House for approval, whether the £10 million is adequate to meet all of the demands, it is fair comment to say that more money could be looked for. I think it is a great step considering the maximum borrowing power was only £2 million; then it went up to £5 million, and now it has been increased by £10 million. It has been a very substantial jump. It is not a bottomless purse. Consequently, having regard to the substantial jump in the amount of money, to the other conditions the Minister laid down in his statement, in regard to advertising and the fact that the people who tender will have to have their tenders properly evaluated—not like in the past where there may have been some deficiencies, which were criticised—to my mind he has to a great extent dealt with many of the problems that have been raised here today.

The question of drabness of design and so on has been referred to repeatedly. That was discussed at length in the Dáil. The Minister in his opening address today mentioned it.

He said:

The Bill was generally welcomed in the Lower House where a helpful debate raised some important matters directly connected with the purposes of the Bill. Concern was expressed, for example, at the drabness and lack of variety of many housing schemes. A complaint which could fairly be levelled at many private and public schemes besides those built by the agency. Deputies also echoed criticism in Press reports of alleged defects in some agency schemes.

The question really before us is: has the Minister, in the light of those criticisms in the Lower House, as he described it, and the criticisms that have been made today, gone far enough in seeking £10 million? And when you relate that to the conditions he has laid down, is he doing the job properly? The answer you must come up with is that it is a great step forward and a brave adventure. Consequently not only would I welcome the Bill for its content but also for the anticipation the Minister showed of the measure that would be needed.

Senator West felt that the Bill did not describe how the money would be spent. The statement made by the Minister in May, 1973, went a great deal of the way towards saying how the money would be spent. On that basis I welcome the Bill, and hope that it will have a speedy passage.

Mr. M.D. Higgins

I just want to comment on a few points that arise from the Minister's speech. In relation to the development of Galway city I am always pleased when people propose to release more money for the building of houses. I have always held the opinion that a roof over one's head is a basic right a minimum to which one is entitled if one is adequately to participate in society. The point I want to make concerning the proposed development of industrial houses is this: I am concerned that there are different kinds of houses being built by the National Building Agency. In the public Press the phrases "executive-type housing" and "workers' houses" have been used. In other words, there is a class difference between the type of house required by an executive, a managing director of a company, and an ordinary worker. What this means is that there is a land use dimension to the traditional class difference.

I would welcome the Minister's assurance on another point as well. In the present case of Galway city over one-third of the population is living in an area to the west as one goes towards the north-western side. They have totally inadequate recreational facilities. It is proposed, I believe by the National Building Agency, that the existing open spaces will be made available for—this is a quotation from the local paper—"executive-type homes". This means that some people who have struggled hard to purchase their houses under the exploiting building societies may have dashed whatever hope they might have had for recreational facilities for their families by the activities of the National Building Agency. I would hope that there would be an assurance that any future houses built would not decrease the limited area of recreational space in Galway city. I should also like to seek an assurance on this. I do not see why money being spent should be spent in this manner of having a distinction between ordinary workers' houses and what I could call "executive homes". In Galway city and on its outskirts, towards the western side particularly, we see many £20,000 bungalows and £30,000 bungalows built by executives and for executives. I am, admittedly, worried about the manner in which the money will be spent. I am asking the Minister first for an assurance that the activity of the National Building Agency will not perpetuate a class difference—and I am sure I am speaking for all Senators—and that the quality of houses built for workers will be equal to the quality of these executive homes; secondly, I am making the point that the activity of the National Building Agency, where they decide to build, should not cut across the very limited space available, and I am speaking here about that section which refers to proposed development in Galway. Finally, in so far as what is proposed here is expenditure of sums of money in relation to housing industrial workers, I want to suggest that is not sufficient in itself. It is a limited step, but if it involves the building of more houses, then it is to be welcomed but there are certain provisos which I would make.

Business suspended at 5.55 p.m. and resumed at 7.30 p.m.

Parliamentary Secretary to the Minister for Local Government (Mr. Begley)

I should like to thank all the Senators who contributed to the debate. It was refreshing to see so many participate in it. I suppose it was inevitable, having heard Senators McGlinchey, Garrett, Lyons, William O'Brien, Russell and Kerrigan that the Senators in the eastern counties might feel that they were left out of it.

As far as the NBA are concerned, if they are asked by the IDA to do a particular job in an area they will be only too glad to do so. I hope that the next time we are back here the Senators from the eastern side of the country will be getting as much as the Senators from the west are getting now.

Senator McGlinchy made a number of points. He dealt at some length on the Minister's statement in Dáil Éireann about housing output. I do not propose to range over the whole field of housing as he did. I should like to point out that the NBA are being effectively used by the Government in their efforts to step up the housing output. As far as industrial housing is concerned, the agency are stepping up their programme for the coming five years to 600 houses annually. On the local authority side, the agency programme provides for 2,250 houses this year, increasing to 2,500 next year. In 1972-73, 1,700 local authority houses were built by the NBA. I hope that in the coming year the local authorities will build at least 6,500 houses. That is a 12 per cent increase on the number built in 1972-73. The average annual increase over the preceding six years was only 7 per cent. It is now 12 per cent.

Senator McGlinchy also raised the question of the NBA building houses for gardaí. The Department of Justice have made it clear that they do not want any extension of the NBA activities in the provision of houses for gardaí. The Department are fully aware that the agency's services are available to them should they change their minds. The Department of Defence are considering whether more houses are needed for Army personnel. If they come to us we will be only too glad to provide the houses where they are needed.

Senator McGlinchy referred to the 90-house scheme planned by the NBA in Letterkenny. I understand that this is the first part of a major development which will include a mixed housing development. We hope adequate open spaces and community services will be provided. The plans have been fully discussed with the local housing and planning authorities who have to be satisfied with the provisions. It is open to these authorities to require back passages and wider roads if they want them. So far as the Minister is concerned, the reasonable requirements of the local authority will always be met by the NBA.

Senator McGlinchy also referred in passing to a scheme built by the agency in Milford, County Donegal. I agree with the Senator that there were genuine grounds for grievance about some houses built by the agency under the previous administration. Because we realised this, the present Minister has laid down policies which should avoid any repetition of poor quality planning and poor quality building.

Mr. McGlinchey

I do not want to interrupt the Parliamentary Secretary, but does he realise that the scheme in Letterkenny will be worse than the scheme in Milford unless it is stopped now?

Mr. Begley

The Senator is a member of the local authority concerned and it is up to him, if he has reservations, to make them at the local authority meeting and to come to the Minister if he is not satisfied with what they tell him they are going to do.

Mr. McGlinchey

The local authority unanimously rejected the plan.

Mr. Begley

Sin ceist eile.

Mr. McGlinchey

The members of the local authority rejected it.

Mr. Begley

The Senator knows what to do it he wishes to come back to the Minister. I am quite sure the Minister will be sympathetic towards any point he has to make.

Senator Russell said he had never been convinced of the need for the agency. He thought that local authorities, if they had the funds, could do the job equally well. The role of the National Building Agency is supplementary. They are only doing what is not done by local authorities. There is no overlaping between the agency and other bodies concerned with housing. The close consultation between the agency and other bodies ensures this. The 200 houses to be built in County Limerick only represent the programme put forward by the Industrial Development Authority. If more houses are needed they will be built. Houses for Alcan workers will be built in the county area of Limerick.

The Senator also spoke of the need for amenity centres. The Minister has given instructions that there will be proper provision for amenities in housing schemes in future.

Senator Dolan spoke about roads. He said that the NBA should build roads where they are needed. The NBA have nothing to do with roads except those in their housing developments. Senator Dolan also pointed out that greater attention should be paid to places in the north and east. I said at the outset that the NBA are only an agency. They do not take the initiative in industrial housing, but act on the advice of the IDA.

Senator Dolan expressed an interest in finding out where the agency are building industrial houses. The details are shown in our annual report and copies are available in the Library. If he or any other Senator wishes to get any further information, we shall be only too glad to provide him with it.

Senator McAuliffe and a number of other Senators spoke about the monotony of housing schemes. I would hope that there would be a greater variety in NBA schemes in future, although it will be appreciated that in large schemes there must be a degree of standardisation in order to keep up production and the speed of building, and inevitably to keep down the cost.

Senator Seán Brosnan referred to the people who were coming back from England. If the IDA recommended to the NBA that houses should be built for people who are coming back, we will be only too glad to investigate their recommendation and, if possible, build the houses for them.

Some Senators made the point that the Minister is too modest in seeking only £10 million extra. I am satisfied that this amount should be sufficient for the next four years or so. The Oireachtas can then decide if the agency are worthy of support. This money is being used to finance houses provided for industry, a branch that represents only about 1 per cent of total housing output. In the present year the agency will spend about £1 million on industrial housing but the Government are providing a further £6 million or £7 million in the public capital programme to assist other aspects of the national housing programme. The £68 million this year represents an increase of practically 50 per cent over the £46 million provided in 1972-73.

Senators Lyons and Garrett referred to low cost NBA houses. The NBA are already in close contact with the IDA as far as Mayo is concerned. We hope to acquire land there to provide the necessary houses which will be needed for industrial purposes.

Senator Cowen and other Senators pressed to have more houses built by the NBA in Midland counties. If we take this area as comprising the counties of Cavan, Laois, Leitrim, Longford, Offaly, Roscommon and Westmeath, we find that the agency have recently completed industrial houses there and that further building is in progress or being planned in these countries. The total number is 123.

Senator Garrett said he would like to see the NBA building flatlets in County Mayo. This has been fully examined by the NBA, the Department, the IDA and the county council. The difficulty is that it would be impossible for the NBA to manage them from Dublin. We believe management is much more appropriate to housing authorities. The NBA are just a construction agency.

Senator Markey again made the point about the east coast versus the west coast. At the outset I said to you that we will build houses if the IDA ask us to do so. If houses are needed in a particular locality, the NBA will be only too glad to do the necessary investigations and build the houses if the investigations prove to be that the houses should be built there.

Senator Keegan said that there should be some new thinking in regard to house design. The Minister has this whole question under review. At present An Foras Forbartha and the Institute for Industrial Research and Standards are examining the whole matter and I hope we will have a report within the next six months.

Senators Keegan and West recommended that local authorities and the National Building Agency should acquire land well in advance of requirements. It is the Minister's view that this is a job for the local authorities. The local authorities now hold sufficient land to accommodate something in the region of 36,500 houses, apart from 15,000 more sites on which housing schemes are already being planned, making a total of more than 50,000 sites. More land is being acquired all the time by the local authorities.

Senator Killilea also said there was need for more housing. The NBA have a scheme at the moment for four houses in Tuam. Normally the agency get advice from the IDA. At the end of December there was a firm order from the IDA for a number of houses needed for industry in Tuam. The figure they have come up with is four.

Senator West said local authorities and the NBA should be encouraged to pay special attention to landscaping in housing schemes. I could not agree with him more. In particular we have asked that existing trees be preserved wherever possible. That is the hope of all of us here.

Senator Michael Higgins referred to the building of executive type houses in Newcastle. I think Senator Higgins must be aware that the agency must provide the type of house which the IDA ask to have built. Their programme is geared to meet the specific needs indicated by new industrial concerns or expanding industries. The NBA will not build if private enterprise housing is already meeting that need. The fact must be faced that key executive or managerial personnel may be vital to the success of a new industrial enterprise. As the Senator knows, if the IDA request that type of house the NBA must provide it for them in order to ensure that the person remains in that locality.

I have not much more to say. Again I want to thank Senators for their contributions to this Bill. We are delighted that everybody is in earnest about it. We hope to play our part in keeping the NBA going.

Question put and agreed to.

Agreed to take remaining Stages today.