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Seanad Éireann debate -
Thursday, 21 Feb 1974

Vol. 77 No. 3

Family Planning Bill, 1973: Second Stage (resumed).

Debate resumed on the following amendment:
To delete all of the words after the word "That" and substitute the following:
"(a) Acknowledging the ultimate right of the people to decide all questions of national policy according to the requirements of the common good;
(b) Considering it desirable that the people be consulted as to the enactment or otherwise of legislation which would, or might reasonably be expected to, affect seriously and adversely the quality of life in the State;
(c) Conscious of the widespread view that legislation permitting the advertising and sale of artificial contraceptives and the advertising, sale and distribution of publications advocating the unnatural prevention of conception would, in fact, seriously and adversely affect the quality of life in the State;
(d) Recognising that the proposals contained in the Family Planning Bill, 1973, if enacted, would permit the advertising and sale of artificial contraceptives and the advertising, sale and distribution of publications advocating the unnatural prevention of conception and having regard to the fact that such proposals have not been submitted to a decision of the people.
Seanad Éireann declines to give a Second Reading to the Family Planning Bill, 1973."
—(Senator M.J. O'Higgins.)

Before the lunch adjournment I was just beginning to outline the real problems which exist. At the head of those is the necessity for natural family planning methods, something that will help the vast majority of married people to regulate and plan their families in a reasonable way. I propose to show that the most recent developments, those of the past five to seven years, of natural family planning methods, thanks to Dr. Billings, are perfectly adequate and reliable. Many of you may have known of the earlier natural methods based on rhythm but those presented difficulties in cases of irregularity of the menstrual cycle. Then there was the development of the use of the thermometer in determining the time of ovulation but this, though reliable, had some pitfalls in that other factors, such as illness, could alter the body temperature. It was arising out of these difficulties that research was begun in Australia by Dr. Billings about 12 years ago. As a result of that research we now have what has become known as the Billings method of natural family planning, or the ovulation method.

Very briefly, this is a method by which any woman, with very little instruction—generally of not longer than 20 minutes—can recognise the fertility of body symptoms of which she is already cognisant. These symptoms are such that any woman can tell from her own observations, following the guidance given in the instructions, when ovulation occurs. The egg survives for not more than 48 hours after that, so that the next two days are "not safe", because they are days on which conception could occur. After that, the remainder of the period is perfectly free: accordingly a woman is incapable of conceiving in that part of the period which ranges from 12 to 16 days in the normal 28-day period. In addition to that, there is the period before ovulation in which a woman recognises the symptoms quite readily the five days before the commencement of ovulation which are days when a certain mucus can be observed. This mucus is such that male sperms are capable, under certain circumstances, of living in it and of being fertilised later when the ovum is released. In other words, these again, are unsafe dates. Before those there are what is known as "dry days" in which the woman is incapable of conceiving. These range from one, two or any number of days, depending on the length of the period.

This method is perfectly simple and is being operated very successfuly in this country at many centres. I ask Deputies and Senators, as a matter of information and as a matter of urgency, to contact those centres. I can supply names where they are in operation so that all interested can contact them and see the excellent work that is being done at no cost to the State, because the instructors give their services on a voluntary basis. They are either nurses or housewives who are capable of giving this instruction. In Cork city alone seven centres have developed during the last year and a half. Excellent work is being done and more than 2,000 married women have been instructed in the method there. There are centres in many other towns, also, such as Wexford, Drogheda and Donegal, However, it is new. It was developed in Australia in the past ten years and was introduced only recently into this country by some medical practitioners who read about it. Many priests of the missionary orders coming back home from the East have known of this method and have helped to introduce it here. It has taken a little time to get it established here.

As far as the medical profession were concerned, prior to 1968 the pill had been introduced and used by the profession. Despite certain doubts about the validity of its use, the medical profession are still prescribing this and were a little slow in adopting the latest development of the natural method. However, recognition is coming fast now and is, I believe, the solution as far as the great majority of our people are concerned. Anybody who professes compassion for the lot of the married woman trying to plan a family and trying to cope with the rearing of a family in those difficult days is a fraud if he or she does not consider it as a matter of urgency to find out if the Billings method is what it claims to be. I ask Senators and Deputies to go and see it in action. You will find it at all levels of our society. If you go to Gurranebraher in Cork, you will find it working excellently. You owe it to find out about it. Because, apart from whatever tons of contraceptives are allowed in, 60 to 70 per cent of our people will never touch those, because they take literally and correctly the statement of their church, the Catholic Church, which says that these practices are morally wrong. These 60 or 70 per cent need help: they are crying out for it. They need help from the Government and from everybody else who can give it, and the only way they can be helped is through the natural method. Therefore there is an urgency and a duty to find out about it and to promulgate it as quickly and as expeditiously as possible.

Dr. John Marshall of England, who is a well-known Catholic doctor and a well-known lecturer in this country, has experimented quite a lot on the temperature method and is an expert on it. It is highly successful but a bit sophisticated in its application. Over the last year he has conducted experiments on about 270 women on the use of the Billings method. He found that 80 per cent of them recognised the various symptoms immediately they were given a short instruction. They were symptoms they had always observed but they never really knew the fertility significance of them. However, once given the significance, they were able to operate the method perfectly.

Another 16 per cent were not able to recognise the symptoms in all situations. It meant that they had to get much more instruction and help than the others, but it is the generally held opinion that with instruction the majority of those could recognise the symptoms. In other words, you get a figure of anything from 90 to 95 per cent able to recognise the symptoms of their own body. This is not particularly a—if I may use a phrase that is so hackneyed and which disgusts me so much—denominational method. It is a natural method. All over Australia and in many places in the East, where the method is being employed regularly, 25 per cent of those using it are non-Catholics. As far as my information goes, there are many groups of non-Catholics in this city who are delighted with this Billings method. Indeed, I heard of a medical representative who was travelling around selling the pill and who happened to meet a medical man who knew about the Billings method. This salesman spoke of the frustrations he and his family were suffering because of the effect that the use of the pill was having on his wife's personality. Having been instructed in the Billings method he came back two months afterwards to report that they were now using the Billings method and things were much more satisfactory—I can give names to the Minister if he is interested— but still that man continued to earn his living by selling the pill.

The Australian Government in their aid for family planning give block grants to many organisations. One of the biggest of those grants is given to the Catholic Family Planning Group in Melbourne. The World Health Organisation, who are very deeply committed to the population problem— probably unnecessarily so—and who rate as one of their most important priorities the problem of keeping populations down, have become, during the last six months, very interested in the part that the ovulation method can play in family planning and are giving some funds towards its furtherance. That method obviously has a great deal to offer us. It would not cost the Exchequer any money apart from the cost of the initial training which at present is given voluntarily and there are no follow-up bills. It is estimated in Canada and the United States that every one in the child bearing group who is included in the number treated under their health schemes cost from 50 dollars to 60 dollars of the taxpayers' money per annum. Not that costs should be the deciding factor by any means but these are considerations. Remember that powerful vested interests are raised against the development and the spread of the natural method here.

These are the interests that look forward greedily to the contraceptive factory they are going to build and in which they will be the managing directors so that they will then get well paid for their benevolence in handing things out on a so-called free basis. They can afford to wait. It is a type of medium-term investment. We should probe deeply into any of those interested parties as to what their connections are likely to be in highly profitable contraceptive developments within the country in the future.

Let us take the question of family planning. We have all had problems in this regard. Practically all couples 90 to 95 per cent of them—if they had been able completely to plan their families would have had smaller families than they have today. A couple may wish to have four children, and may say after the first two children "We will not have the third this year. We will wait until next year". Next year they may say "There is a new car needed so we will wait for another year before having another child". That couple would probably wind up with two children. But which one of us, given some children beyond the number we might have planned for, would be without those children afterwards? Are they not the greatest blessing that can be sent to any family? If we look around we can see that the happiest families are the ones where there are four, five or more children. They are the families that become the pillars of our society and of our country. If I took a census around here I venture to say that in the case of Senators, who are all people who in one way or another have made a mark in their profession, trade or organisation, that 90 per cent or more have come from families of four or more children. It would be most interesting to look into that question. I have looked at it in the university and have found that those people whom I know well and know about their family backgrounds are all from large family units.

However much the World Health Organisation or the liberals may moan about the awful catastrophe that will befall the world with its teeming population—and at the same time showing their complete distrust in the providence of Almighty God in providing for the people—as far as we are concerned in this small country of ours we are totally and utterly underpopulated. As a member of the EEC we are underpopulated to our peril because within the EEC and with our present free space and all the other amenities we have, our population has to rise to something like European norms before we can have what the type of European society regard as essential. We can support an aged population in the comfort in which they deserve to be supported provided we have an expanding work force. Likewise, we can keep our industries going if we have expanded demand based on expanded needs by people for housing and everything else. Unfortunately, that will not be our decision in the future. We have read of factories coming in here and we are delighted. We read of a factory bringing in 1,000 workers. Another factory in Ballina will have 2,000 workers.

Three thousand workers.

That is better still. We read of others all in that area. Next year perhaps we will be reading of even bigger factories of 4,000 workers but the snag is that there will be plans by such factories to bring in 1,000 emigrants to work here, probably from Italy or maybe from Africa, and provide housing for them here. We have no power under the Common Market regulations to refuse those workers entry here. The free space is here to put up the factories. Therefore, if we are to preserve some semblance of our Irish culture and our Irish heritage, some national identity, we will preserve that only if we can get a population double our present number within the next 16 to 20 years. That is a very difficult target to reach but it is necessary to preserve our identity.

The Billings method will not help.

For Senator Horgan's information the positive use of the Billings method is even more impressive than its use as a regulatory method, because babies have been conceived in families that for years have been trying to have children; families using the Billings method, will have the time of ovulation so closely pinpointed that conception readily follows. For a Christian community to have a substantial family is one that is to be greatly prized. What gets my flesh creeping is this talk about the "unwanted child". Is there such a person? There is no child unwanted. I read such a statement by a clergyman today at a TCD debate and it appalled me to think of such absolute denigration of human nature by a cleric.

Now we come to the case of a wife with a drunken husband. I accept that such cases are crying out for help. But help is surely not to make a guineapig of the unfortunate wife with all sorts of contraceptive pills. This calls rather for the immediate tackling of a fundamental failing in our national life—alcoholism. We are all aware that, over the last ten years with the development of affluence in our society, alcoholism has increased by leaps and bounds. For an alcoholic natural family planning will not work because natural family planning is based on restraint over a certain period of the cycle. There is nothing unnatural about this restraint. It is something that welds a family closer together and develops moral fibre and better citizenship. Every aid possible should be given to the wife of a drunken husband. The social services are far too slow in dealing with such cases. There is too much red tape involved. The Government are trying to cut it down and I suggest they continue to do so.

Now we come to the present situation where certain abortifacients are in common use in the country. Many of the pills at present have certain abortifacient characteristics. In the future they will have more. The low dosage pill is generally thought to work that way. There may be a conflict of opinion in medical circles as to whether it is, or is not, abortifacient. Anyone, however, should be in no doubt but that future research on those pills will be directed towards producing a morning-after pill, the one that will work by producing an early abortion. Likewise in regard to the IUD, which is being hawked around so much at present, the most responsible medical opinion that I have been able to get says quite definitely that the action of the IUD is abortifacient. It prevents the fertilised ovum from embedding and developing. In a situation where conflicting views are held as to whether it is murder, or not, one has to take the prudent course and not allow it for public use until it can be proved categorically that it is not abortifacient. We need to take a firm stand on abortifacients at this stage. We should recognise that Irish citizenship is the proud heritage of every baby from the moment of its conception. Senator Michael D. O'Higgins may laugh at that, but I do not think it is a laughing matter.

May I point out that my name is Higgins not "O'Higgins".

That makes it easier to distinguish the junior Senator from the senior. We have to take a stand by defining citizenship in our Constitution. We should define it to extend to the baby from the first moment of its conception. From there on the baby has the right to protection of its life. This is an amendment I hope will be moved at some stage. We cannot move constitutional amendments here, but I hope it will be moved elsewhere. I accept that the intention of the sponsors of the Bill—apart from supporters like Senator Noel Browne—is confined to allowing only contraceptives into the country, and that abortifacients are out. Their supporters outside are not so tied. They revealed their real intentions in the first flush of victory after yesterday's District Court verdict, where the evidence was not quite substantial enough to convict, though the Irish people have already convicted the Family Planning Service Group of a most foul deed by handing out these contraceptive devices to a nine year old, merely on postal request. This is something the Government should tighten up. They should make the giving of a subscription effectively the same as selling the contraceptive device. The pyrrhic victory which they achieved was worth the price of the court hearing, as it alerted the public. It let them see what was really going on.

The heading in The Irish Independent on the following day, Wednesday, 20th February read, “Cleared Group Seek Free Sterilisation”. Therefore, they are not satisfied with this Bill, which I think they said would do more harm than good. But they want seven points which begin with free contraceptive advice and materials for all adults. In other words the 80-90 per cent who will not use those things must be made pay for the others.

That is No. 1 point. No. 2 is free vasectomy and female sterilisation for all. You know what that means, and five other points. These do not go as far as point No. eight, which Dr. Noel Browne contributes, which is therapeutic abortion. The "advanced" groups in other countries on those matters have long since left therapeutic abortion far behind and are now looking for mercy killings and all the rest of it. We are not saying that those responsible for the present Bill would for one moment countenance abortion and euthanasia, but we are different from the rest of the peoples of the world when subjected to those awful pressures. Remember the statement, which is absolutely correct, that the ultimate contraceptive is abortion and those who will seek contraceptives, especially of the abortifacient nature, will not hesitate after that if abortion is necessary. As far as we are concerned here, we are fooling ourselves if we think we are outlawing abortion, because one has simply to buy a ticket on the ferry across to England to get to the abortion factory of the world, so does it really matter whether we prohibit abortion here or not? Incidentally, this advance group in Dublin, this family planning services group, want a regulation obliging doctors to provide patients with comprehensive advice on family planning or to tell patients where they can obtain the advice. That, of course, is something which I hope the medical profession will never stand for, no more than the Catholic medical profession in England will ever stand for being forced to take part in abortions.

Anyway there is where the logic of the situation leads. We have got to take a stand very firmly, now and the best stand we can take against all those crimes is to have written into our Constitution an article guaranteeing the right to life of the unborn child. Rightly suspect anyone who goes around talking about a foetus. There is no such thing. That is just a con word that has been conjured up by those pedlars of abortions to fool the people into believing that somehow the unborn child is less of a human being than the child after birth, as if the child has not every attribute of the human being from the moment of its conception.

I next come to the question of the family group. There are those who may not be able to use the natural method, but these are only a few per cent. There are some minority groups and others who ask for other methods which I believe and confidentially expect should be restricted to non-abortifacients. Indeed, I think that most of those church groups who talk of prayerful family planning will find, as many of their brethren in other countries are finding, that if they study carefully the Billings method they will find it is the answer to all their problems of family planning.

The non-Catholic community here have complained about their falling numbers and the only way to improve falling numbers is increased families. As I pointed out, the Billings method can do this very effectively because it enables parents to plan positively, in other words, they can have those extra children which many of them desire at present but have failed to conceive.

We next come to the question of those who are demanding certain facilities which they are getting by post at the moment. The Government as an interim measure must stop this postal business from outside. In accordance with the Constitution, as interpreted by the recent Supreme Court decision. that can be done provided the Government ensures that these are made available, I hope by means of a short first Bill, by mail from a centre controlled here pretty rigidly, but which would get over the Constitutional position in the short term. The Government could then re-enact the section of the law that was declared unconstitutional, that is prohibiting the importation by post of contraceptive devices. I hope that the joint committee of both Houses which I am calling for will, in looking at the need for such facilities which are non-abortifacient, see whether there is any means of controlling the distribution of those in such a way that their limited availability would not affect the general quality of life in our society. That is a question that would have to be carefully debated. I think the churches who have sent communications to Senators should enlighten us on their plans to achieve this. I am totally against these being in every chemist shop in the country and I am totally against these idea that many kinds of them would be available without prescription. That is a serious matter and one that we have got to look at carefully, and it is a right and proper subject of study for the joint committee that I have proposed.

We next come to the question of the unmarried, and I think it is generally agreed that if any contraceptives have to be made available, they should be restricted to married couples. Now I hear it said: "Oh! but that is impracticable". I do not accept that for one moment. As regards most offences—motoring offences, stealing, or any offence you like to name—we all know that it is impossible to catch more than a small percentage of people breaking these laws. Take the Road Traffic Acts, what percentage of those who violate the law are caught? Very few. Yet that does not make us panic into saying that just because we can only catch a small percentage and punish those, that we should repeal the Acts altogether and have no road traffic laws. It is the same with contraceptives. I believe that anything that is given can be readily restricted to married couples. In this I would see that wherever the centre of distribution was the production of some agreed certificate of entitlement would be absolutely necessary.

The Church of Ireland, the Presbyterian Church and others, have been pressing this matter. I do not see why, then, as far as their members are concerned, that their ministers could not sign a statement saying that such a person is entitled to be regarded under the marriage section of the Act.

On a point of information the churches—the Protestant churches—have not been pressing for any such thing as Professor Quinlan has just said.

Has the Senator read the statements we have been given?

I have read the statements. There is nothing about restrictions to married couples and nothing about certificates. It is all nonsense.

I accept that, but they have said their concern is for family planning. To achieve that they want these to be free for all. I do not. Neither do the vast majority of the Irish people. It is up to the vast majority to state how such a law should be implemented. I do not see any difficulty in implementing it. I see many groups and agencies who could be used—from the minister of the church to the local sergeant of the Garda or the family medical doctor. Anyone in a responsible position could sign a statement saying such a person is entitled to be considered as coming under a certain section of the Act, dealing with married people. This to my mind is feasible, but it is something that should be investigated at great length before it is granted, to see if it would have any deteriorating effect on the quality of life in the country. That could only be done through a joint committee of both Houses. I suggest that it should be so done.

In this restriction to married couples I want to look again most sympathetically at the unmarried in our community. What is the major problem there? The major problem again is the abuse of alcohol. Advertisements by the Department of Health have been of some help. That, of course, is largely negated by the Guinness advertisements which follow later, where everybody is perfectly happy lowering pint after pint.

The Senator is going into too much detail on alcohol.

Again, alcoholism is the problem of youth. It is a foremost problem and it is a problem that aggravates the sex problem. I think the Government have a positive duty to do some quick thinking on this. I hold that this is one of the things that the joint committee could consider and see what can be done to remedy it. On the other hand, we have the question of inadequate community development. We have to get the message across to youth that sex is not everything; community development and recreational opportunities which are sadly lacking in many of our built-up areas should be provided as a matter of urgency. This is something a government can do without any Bill.

Next we have the casualties in the system, those who have illegitimate babies. I think there has been a very marked change in the climate of approach to such people over the past couple of years. The Government have moved on it in the recent budget in which they made provision for the unmarried mother. The whole matter is being approached at a very Christian level with rehabilitation the desired aim.

In 2,000 years.

I do not share Senator Browne's cynicism.

The Senator himself said this started two years ago.

I did not. I said that there had been a marked change in attitude. The provision made by the State came into effect a year ago.

I would ask the Senators to cease this private conversation and ask Senator Quinlan to continue to address the House.

I believe that, with a proper approach to this, when an illegitimacy occurs—and it could happen in any of our families—the girl concerned can with Chirstian charity, rehabilitation, and proper consideration emerge none the worse from such a traumatic experience and make a happy marriage afterwards. If we put our resources into such Christian work rather than squandering them on the provision of free contraceptives through our health services, we would be doing something really positive for the development of our community. There is also the question of family planning instruction which is being given in a number of our schools today. I know that excellent work is being done in the schools, with which I am acquainted in Cork city. The instruction is given in its proper setting. It is set in the religion of the recipient so that the natural methods are being taught in a proper setting. They are not being taught as a means of avoiding pregnancy in the unmarried period, but rather as a preparation for family planning.

I deplore the efforts to bring the North into this. I do not think it does a service either to the North or to us to suggest that what we envisage in the future is that there must be one law, one set of standards, for both parts. What we envisage is the development of co-operation, mutual understanding, and mutually benefical working together, each recognising and respecting the distinctive features or characteristics of the other. Are we to start campaigning about how we should change so as to make ourselves into nice little English people so that we would be fully acceptable to the Northern Unionists? Should we renege completely on our glorious past heritage. Likewise should there not be campaigning in the North for the removal of those impediments to liberty which might be claimed to restrict the minority?

I refer to the distinctly Protestant character of the Sunday observance in the North which means that even recreation halls in the predominantly Catholic areas will not get a licence to open on a Sunday. Swimming baths cannot be opened on a Sunday. The licensing hours are far shorter than here.

That is the alcoholic problem you were talking about earlier.

I am just counting on "the liberties". I share the Senator's concern that there is far too much alcohol.

We might shorten the licensing hours if that is the case.

I agree completely with you, but it is just as realistic to charge that these shorter hours lessen the liberties of the North. Certainly the Senator should agree that the failure to open swimming pools on Sunday is not concerned with alcoholism. Neither is the question of the opening of ordinary parochial halls for plays or recreational activities on Sunday in any way connected with alcoholism.

It is a case of forcing views on others who do not share them.

Hear, hear.

No, that is too naïve and too simplistic a view altogether.

At least it is free.

I should like to put on record part of the statement from one who we all know has served his community and has served Ireland magnificently—that is Canon Murphy from St. John's Presbytery, Falls Road, Belfast. In a letter to The Irish Times on the 12th February he went on to say:

In these welcome days of openness, when clarity need not conflict with charity, I feel bound to comment frankly on an aspect of the Church of Ireland letter and statements published in your issue of February the 6th. I refer to the 1970 report of the role of the church committee which states...

"We believe that an urgent examination of certain issues which infringe personal rights and freedom is essential and that the State should not endeavour by legislation or otherwise to regulate matters that ought to be governed by individual conscience".

It goes on—

My many friends of the Church of Ireland both clerical and lay will not be unduly surprised when I state that to a catholic reared in the north of Ireland this passage reads strangely indeed for, in the north the State has always endeavoured to regulate by legislation and otherwise the manner of Sunday observance by its citizens involving an enfringement of their personal rights and freedoms. It continues to do so to this very day. In doing so it has also been generally accepted that the State had the full support of the Church of Ireland.

The Church of Ireland (as other Protestant Churches) does not oblige its members positively to engage in public worship on Sunday. Church attendance is optional. It does, however, oblige its members negatively to refrain from social and recreational activities on that day. This theology has always been reflected in legislation without regard to rights and freedoms. Children's playgrounds, even those in urban areas of highest traffic hazards, have been locked and barred every Sunday for all my lifetime. Seven day licences for halls including parochial halls (not for drinking but for innocuous recreation such as concerts, parish socials or dancing) could not be obtained from local authorities. Mondays to Saturdays only.

When this legislation was challenged in the courts it could, on occasion, be set aside. The loudest protests at such decisions came from the Orange Lodges in which Church of Ireland bishops as well as clergy invariably held prominent positions. In recent years there has been a tendency for legislation of this kind to be relaxed a little particularly in seaside resorts with visitors from overseas where considerable profit—or loss—was involved.

During the past week, however, in Lurgan and Portadown local authorities have infringed yet again by legislation on the rights and freedoms of the ratepayers whose individual consciences would permit them to have a dip on Sunday. They cannot have it in the municipal pools. It will be closed on Sundays and that is that.

I should like to ask the Senator how long the quotation is because I am still waiting to hear something that is directly related to the Bill.

It shows the position in the North. I am not objecting to it. I think it is invalid to suggest that here we have got to make changes simply because somebody feels this would please certain sections in the North. I do not think that any section in the North would be fooled by such an approach. They are more concerned with how we develop positively and how co-operation, which is a long process, will progress over the years.

I have only a few more references to make. I have shown quite conclusively that there is a great need for a joint Oireachtas Committee to be set up. In the meantime the Government can bring in the legislation that is necessary to restore the present position or bring it into accordance with the recent Supreme Court ruling. They should bring in legislation about those mail orders and other activities that threaten our way of life and try to keep out the abortifacients.

On the positive level, I call for the Government, as a matter of great urgency, to give every help possible to the natural family planning methods, to develop those and to see that the relatively hostile press which they have received is counteracted by a Government statement of genuine interest in these methods. I will be more than happy to put any of the Senators in touch with groups who are benefiting from these methods. If the Senators will go and talk with those groups and make up their own minds on it they will see the good work that is being done and the potential that this has got for family planning for the vast majority of our people.

The Government again should push on with the question of community development. They should tackle the problem of alcoholism here as a matter of urgency. The commission set up should have rather wide terms and should be quite broadly based. We would hope that it would not become a football of party politics. We would hope in the end to get agreed measures, which in the opinion of the majority of the Oireachtas, acting in a free vote would operate to the benefit of our community and to the betterment and development of our distinctly Irish way of life—a way of life which is Christian and which we are proud to call Christian, and for which our forefathers would gladly have died. Neither would any of those who fought in the War of Independence or in any of the previous rebellions have bartered this priceless heritage, even for the liberty they longed for. Our generation has no right to be less proud of our heritage. We have a glorious heritage and have much to contribute to the world. Our missionaries have contributed greatly both spiritually and materially all over the world. Surely our people will not renege on them here at home. It is these missionaries who have been responsible for bringing to the attention of groups here the development of the Billings method of family planning. It is becoming a recognised method of family planning. It is also non-denominational. It is the perfect answer for the husband and wife who have some love for each other and who are not alcoholics.

There is just one omission which I want to repair. It was an omission by Senator Robinson in which she read the stated positions of all the churches, bar one. I was surprised that she omitted from this reading into the Seanad records the excellent and temperate statement by the Hierarchy of the Catholic Church, which, after all, does represent the vast majority of our citizens. To set the record straight, that statement should be read into the record so that it can be studied and construed in conjunction with the others. I now wish to read this statement as reported in The Irish Times, of Monday, 26th November, 1973:

The proposals which are currently being made to change the law on the sale of contraceptives in the Republic of Ireland raise an important issue for the people and for their elected representatives.

The question at issue is not whether artificial contraception is morally right or wrong. The clear teaching of the Catholic Church is that it is morally wrong. No change in State Law can make the use of contraceptives morally right since what is wrong in itself remains wrong, regardless of what State law says.

It does not follow, of course, that the State is bound to prohibit the importation and sale of contraceptives. There are many things which the Catholic Church holds to be morally wrong and no one has ever suggested, least of all the Church herself, that they should be prohibited by the State.

Those who insist on seeing the issue purely in terms of the State enforcing, or not enforcing, Catholic moral teaching, are therefore missing the point.

The real point facing the legislators is "What effect would the increased availability of contraceptives have on the quality of life in the Republic of Ireland?"

This is a question of public, not private, morality. What the legislators have to decide is whether a change in the law would on balance, do more harm than good, by damaging the character of the society for which they are responsible.

There is a good deal of evidence that it would. Experience elsewhere indicates that where the sale of contraceptives——

Could I raise a point——

The Senator will have an opportunity to make his own speech in due course.

The Senator will have an opportunity later, of commenting, no doubt.

——is legalised, marital infidelity increases, the birth of children outside of wedlock (surprising as it may seem) increases, abortions increase, there is a marked increase in the incidence of venereal disease and the use of contraceptives tends to spread rapidly among unmarried young people.

In England and Wales the total number of illegitimate live births increased from 34,562 in 1957 to 65,678 in 1971—despite the greatly increased sale of contraceptives during this period.

In 1967 the illegitimate birth rate was even higher (69,928) but the introduction of legal abortion that year has resulted in less illegitimate babies being born alive. Thus in 1971, in addition to the 65,678 illegitimate live births, 52,923 women without husbands, and resident in England and Wales, had legal abortions.

The influence on young people is of particular significance because it affects the next generation of fathers and mothers. Legislation about the sale of contraceptives often contains provisions to safeguard against this and other abuses but experience shows that it is only a matter of time until such safeguards are eroded. Young people in Ireland have high moral standards but it may be felt that legislators ought to think very carefully before making the environment for moral living more difficult for them.

The link between legislation on contraception and abortion is also significant. Increasingly abortion is being seen as the ultimate method of birth control. There seems to be a chain-reaction in these matters by which the first piece of legislation tends to set in motion a process of change that no one can control.

Perhaps the most serious consideration of all is the effect which the contraceptive mentality has on the very way marriage and the family are looked upon in society. Once the gift of sex is seen as something that can be separated altogether from childbearing, people begin to ask what is the point of restricting it to marriage at all? Why should it be confined to a situation which is obviously designed for looking after children?

The corrosive effect on the very concepts of marriage and the family which this contraceptive mentality has had in some Western societies, even in the short few years since the anovulant pill came to be used, is quite remarkable.

All these are factors which affect the quality of life in the society in which they are widespread. Sometimes a society, no less than the individual, has to impose rules of self-discipline on itself as a help towards preserving values which it holds dearly.

What we are saying is that the factors outlined above are important and that they have tended to be overlooked in public discussion. They should be put into the balance along with such other factors as the actual degree of inconvenience which the present law and practice causes the people of other religious persuasions and a realistic assessment as to whether a change in the law would have any significant effect on the present——

I am afraid I have to intervene. The Senator must understand that lengthy quotations are not in order.

I thought it was justifiable to do so because the views of the Presbyterian Church and the Society of Friends were put on the records of the House.

Senators are allowed to make quotations in order to illustrate or support their arguments but the Senator is making an extremely lengthy quotation of something that is available in the Library of the House.

The statement continues:

Next year, we intend to publish a comprehensive pastoral letter on the sacredness of human life and its origins, seen in the light of the Church's vision of the family and society. In today's world faithfulness to the Gospel as proclaimed by the Church can, we are only too well aware, give rise to painful problems of an intimate nature within particular families, problems which call for Christian compassion and understanding within the Gospel message. The question with which this short statement is concerned—the question as to whether the present State law on the importation, sale and advertising of contraceptives should be relaxed—belongs to a different category, the category of public rather than personal morality. Nevertheless, an important moral issue is involved in it: the moral duty of legislators to weigh all the relevant factors conscientiously and impartially in coming to a decision which affects the common good.

The issue before the legislators and the people is, therefore, a grave one. People must try to weigh up all the issues fairly in their own minds, asking themselves what kind of society do they want, for themselves and their children.

That is the end of the statement. It also says that there is to be a comprehensive pastoral letter which will deal with the origins and sacredness of human life, issued some time this year. I hope that this will be issued before the joint committee, for which I am calling on the floor of the Seanad, will conclude their deliberations. I cannot see any other logical or reasonable attitude which one can adopt, except to use a joint committee of both Houses. I implore the Government to take this course as the only course and one that should be followed by a free vote of both Houses, so that decisions will be made in conformity with the individual consciences of the Members.

On a point of order. It was agreed this morning that the House would adjourn at 10 o'clock. That decision was made on the understanding that every Member who was interested in the Bill would have a chance, during the course of the day, to say something about it. We have now reached 4 o'clock and only three voices have been heard on the matter. If the present average of speech length were to continue, it would mean that——

It is not a point of order. There is nothing in Standing Orders controlling the length of speeches. The position is that the House, at the beginning of the day's business, agreed on the orders of the day, which was that the House should adjourn at 10 p.m.

If one had the agreement of the Leader of the House, would it be impossible to agree that we would go beyond 10 o'clock, if the House were to agree on that point?

The House is in control of its own business. This matter cannot be dealt with by addressing hypothetical questions to the Chair.

Suppose it is a non-hypothetical question—in other words, I am proposing that if, in fact, everybody had not spoken by 10 o'clock, the House would continue to sit until 11 o'clock.

That proposition is not in order. It has been repeatedly indicated in this House that arrangements in regard to business are best discussed and agreed upon outside the House. It then becomes a matter, following discussion, for the House to order its own business by motion and by orders.

In supporting Senator Martin——

Not in supporting disorder?

No, Sir. What I am saying is there appears to be a change in the general condition of the debate since we made our decision this morning. Is there no way by which the Whips could meet in order to make a new decision, even if it is only to decide matters and to reassure those of us who have not got in that we will get an opportunity early next week?

There is nothing the Chair can do in regard to this matter. It is the duty of the Chair to carry out the orders of the House made when it ordered its business this morning.

Would it be in order for me, speaking for the Leader of the House, to say that for our part we would be quite willing, for example, to continue the discussion during the normal tea-break? I know that this should be taken care of, as you say, but as this point has been raised, I should like that to be known to the House.

Does that mean that it is decided that the Seanad will adjourn at 10 o'clock tonight until next week or the week after?

The House will adjourn at 10 o'clock; it will be a matter at 10 o'clock for the House to decide the nature of that adjournment.

Whether or not we are finished with the one Bill, we are adjourning. It is essential for some Senators to know definitely before 10 o'clock whether we are adjourning definitely or not.

All I can say is that that is the order of the House: that the debate be adjourned at 10 o'clock, if not previously concluded. It is well that discussion should take place outside the House and at 6 o'clock a decision can be made in regard to whether or not the debate will continue through the normal tea interval, and also any other matters that the Leader of the House may wish to raise at that time.

It is very important to approach this matter in a constructive and responsible manner. Speaking on behalf of our group, we take the view that it was welcome to have an open debate on this matter. Indeed, we welcome the very constructive contribution made by Senator Mary Robinson in bringing to the forefront the precise issues involved here.

Speaking for myself, I deplore some of the pontification and tendentiousness that was brought into this debate. It is a debate on a very basic and important matter, which should be approached in a way of compassion and sensitivity. I would emphasise that it is not a matter for any democratically elected Parliament to engage in discussion of morality or anything of that kind. There are people who handle morality: there are churches for that purpose. Our purpose is to ensure that under the Constitution enacted by the people, and having regard to that Constitution and the organs of Government established under that Constitution, we do our job on behalf of the people who elect us.

This is very basic and fundamental. I do not want to repeat the Constitution. Article 6.2 states:

These powers of government are exercisable only by or on the authority of the organs of State established by this Constitution.

Article 28.2 states:

The executive power of the State shall, subject to the provisions of this Constitution, be exercised by or on the authority of the Government.

There are various other Articles that deal with the courts and the Oireachtas, but the basic responsibility in regard to matters concerning the public are the people who elect us. Fundamentally, these basic powers must be exercised by the Government, subject to the restrictions of the Oireachtas and of the courts. I would straightaway reject any notion of a joint committee, as suggested by Senator Quinlan. That just does not make sense. It is nonsense to expect a matter of this kind to be dealt with in that way. This is a matter that should be approached by the Government in a positive manner. Our view is that a Government Bill covering the various aspects of this matter arising out of the Supreme Court decision should be published immediately. We will deal with and meet in a very sensible and constructive way whatever Bill is furnished by the Government to the Oireachtas.

The Government can have that assurance on behalf of the Fianna Fáil Party. Any measure produced by them will be dealt by us in a constructive and responsible manner. In my view, we should not at this stage engage in any emotive debate on biological or moral matters. The issues have been sensibly raised by Senator Robinson. It is now squarely in the Government's court to produce a legislative measure flowing from a decision of the Supreme Court to the effect that the section in the 1935 Act prohibiting the importation of contraceptive devices is now unconstitutional.

Flowing from that decision, and indeed from obiter dicta in that decision on the aspects of sale and distribution, it is now clearly a matter for the Government, who are charged with the responsibility of governing the country, to bring in legislation to deal with this situation. That, to us democrats elected by the people to this House is clearly the issue involved. The view that in any way there should be any abdication by the Government in regard to their responsibilities is reprehensible as far as democrats are concerned in a House of Parliament charged under the Constitution with basic responsibilities. For that reason, we totally reject the amendment standing in the name of the Leader of the House, Senator O'Higgins seconded by Senator Quinlan and also sponsored by Senator O'Brien, in which the view is sought to be presented that in some way the people should be consulted.

The people have elected the Government, rightly or wrongly, and it is the Government's job to discharge their responsibility on foot of the people who elected them to Government.

What happened to the last Family Planning Bill?

I should like to get the Seanad, I will not bore you for very long, back to the basic duties involved in being present here in this debating chamber. This is why I reject entirely the thinking behind Senator O'Higgins's amendment which seeks to take from the responsibility of Government, seeks to bring in a totally non-constitutional element, that is, the people. The people certainly elect us here and we are here to discharge our responsibilities to the people, but the day it is sought by any motion of this kind, or by any other motion, to suggest that a Government should run for cover and seek to consult anybody outside the elected House of the people in regard to this or any other matter is a total rejection of representative democracy.

We should all be proud to be here as Members of a representative Parliament. I totally reject 90 per cent of the philosophy and thinking in what Senator O'Higgins and Senator Quinlan engaged in in regard to this amendment. I want to reiterate what I said initially, that is, that we as a responsible and constructive Opposition will look in a completely constructive manner at whichever Bill emerges from Government consideration and deliberation. The Bill that emerges will be viewed by us in a sensitive, compassionate manner. The Government have that assurance. That will be our approach, because in our view the Supreme Court decision has placed an obligation on the Government to come forward with positive legislation. We will be positive in our constructive opposition to whatever emerges.

For that reason we reject totally the thinking involved in the amendment in the names I have mentioned. As far as our group are concerned— I am speaking for every member of our group—we do not propose to make at this stage any further contribution to what in my view has already been an over-lengthy discussion and debate. I do not think it has done credit to the Seanad in that we should get down to the basic facts of this matter, which are that something must be done in the way of legislative activity by the Government arising from the Supreme Court decision.

There is no point in undue and lengthy discussion of biological and moral matters. We are here to do a job of work on behalf of the people. The Government in particular have been elected by the people to do a job of work in the form of bringing forward legislation which we can consider. As far as our party are concerned we will discuss any such measure brought forward by the Government in a generous manner and we will be constructive in our approach to it. It is now, in our view, squarely with the Government to face up to their responsibilities. There is no point in talking in terms of joint committees, as suggested by Senator Quinlan. In my view there is no point in talking about a free vote in the matter either, because that again is not facing up to responsibilities. As far as our party are concerned, we will deal with it in a united and disciplined way as befits the major party in this country and a responsible Opposition party. I want to make the signalling quite clear as to where we stand. That is our position. Many members of our group have very positive views to put forward, many constructive attitudes to express. They will be expressed when we see a legislative measure from the Government.

Have you no views on the Bill before the House?

When we see a legislative measure from the Government we will express our views. I think I have indicated it sufficiently. If the Senator has ears to hear, I have indicated quite sufficiently and quite clearly that whichever measure comes from the Government will be viewed by us in a constructive, sympathetic, sensitive and compassionate manner.

I should like to preface my remarks by thanking Senator Robinson for moving this Bill and also for her comprehensive and quite brilliant contribution in opening the debate. I find myself in the somewhat unusual position of agreeing with Senator Lenihan, the Leader of the Opposition, in saying that her opening statement was ill served by some of the contributions that followed.

I want to deal specifically with the Bill before the House and I will leave contributions on a Government Bill to a later date. I am in favour of the Bill before the House and if it is put to a vote I will vote for it. Naturally, I will vote for any other similar measure brought before the House by the Government or by any other Senators as a Private Members' Bill. Family planning is a matter of a civil right. The denial of that civil right constitutes a serious transgression of the personal freedom of many of our citizens in the most private domain of life, the marital relations between husband and wife. For that reason I will vote for the central principle of this Bill if given the opportunity, or for any other similar Bill.

I do not believe that the State has any right—still less an obligation—to intrude into the intimate relations between husband and wife or to enshrine the moral code of any particular religious persuasion in the law of this land. These are fundamental beliefs of mine and I am sure they are fundamental beliefs for many other Senators here. I regard these as the basic principles upon which our democracy is founded and upon which our Constitution rests.

Section 17 of the Criminal Law (Amendment) Act, 1935, is, in my view, in direct conflict with these basic principles and should be removed by the Oireachtas subject to certain conditions. If we fail in our duty to do that we can be assured that the Supreme Court will do it for us. This Bill is for me and for many other Labour Senators a matter on which our party has pronounced clearly and uniquivocally. Our annual conference in 1972 called for a reform of the law dealing with the availability of contraceptives by the deletion of section 17 of the Criminal Law (Amendment) Act. As this Bill corresponds with the intent of my party's decision, I will of course support it.

In so doing I do not intend to seek refuge behind my party's conference decision or to claim that it precludes me from my right or that of any other Labour Senator to exercise freely his personal judgment on this sensitive matter. I believe that on this and on many other important political matters, particularly in the field of political rights, my party have taken the correct political stand.

This Bill also has great relevance to Northern Ireland. Its passage or that of any similar provision would help to create those conditions which would lead to the ultimate reconciliation of the peoples of this island. It would demonstrate a respect by the Oireachtas for the rights of a minority, however composed. It would signify that questions of private morality are determined legislatively here on their merits and not at the dictate of a church or of a powerful denomination. It would signify that Article 44 of the Constitution as it now stands means what it says, and that in my view is a precondition for reconciliation on this island. These constitute the political and party reasons for supporting the Second Reading of this Bill. In addition, there is an urgent and compelling necessity to enact some such legislation in the aftermath of the Supreme Court's decision in the McGee case.

The Oireachtas does not now have the luxury of opting to change the law. The Supreme Court have already done half of that job by declaring subsection (3) of section 17 to be repugnant to the Constitution, and clearly would, on a reading of Mr. Justice Walsh's judgment, declare subsection (1) of the same section to be repugnant to the Constitution if a case were pressed. Regrettably in one sense, the Seanad, despite what it has heard previously, is not being asked to examine the law ab initio. It would be a preferable situation from the point of estimating the support for reforming legislation on the basis of a civil right, if this debate were taking place in vaccuo as far as the Supreme Court are concerned. But preferences do not enter into it. As ever in politics, reality determines decisions, and the reality of this debate is that on 20th December last our national newspapers carried reports of the Supreme Court judgment that the law on the import of contraceptives is unconstitutional.

Thus this House does not have to decide—regrettably for some; gratefully for others—whether the importation of contraceptives should be permitted. The Supreme Court have decided. The issue therefore hinges around one key decision: do we propose to permit the sale of contraceptives before the High Court or the Supreme Court have decided it for us? Do we intend to abnegnate our solemn responsibility to defend what the Supreme Court identified as a central civil right or do we intend to leave it to some private citizen to contest the constitutionality of the prohibition of the sale of contraceptives and thereby have it removed for us?

I accept this is not an argument launched from the high plateau of the defence of democratic freedoms and I should accept the charge that it is a politician's approach, which some might describe as sordid, given the great import of this debate.

But, as a politician, I am concerned not with great moral gestures doomed to failure, however self-ennobling, but with practical changes in the law. That is why I want to concentrate on the central fact that the law has been changed for us and can be changed further and that in reality we are not locked in a great moral debate between two diametrically opposed viewpoints. In some cases I wish we were. But we are not.

The bulk of what the proposers of the amendment had to say is irrelevant. In reality those who are opposed to the public availability of contraceptives and those who are in support are paradoxically forced into a common approach of having to change the law. The legitimate differences that remain revolve around the nature of the restrictions, if any, which should be placed on their side, and here indeed there is room for genuine debate, and in the specific instance of this Bill, for amendments relating to the conditions governing their sale.

I believe that even a casual perusal of Mr. Justice Walsh's judgment in the McGee case forced this conclusion on even the most committed opponent of any change in this law. The Supreme Court argued that Article 41 of the Constitution guarantees married couples the right to plan their families and from that concluded that the State could not frustrate that right. In the McGee case, the complaint was that the ban on the importation of contraceptives frustrated her right and hence it was declared unconstitutional. The prohibition on sale was not contested, but Mr. Justice Walsh commented that if the restriction on sale also frustrated the right to use contraceptives then that particular prohibition must also fall. The key passages in the judgment are:

It is outside the authority of the State to endeavour to intrude into the privacy of the husband and wife relationship for the sake of imposing a code of private morality upon that husband and wife which they do not desire. In my view, Article 41 of the Constitution guarantees the husband and wife against such invasion of their privacy by the State. It follows that the use of contraceptives by them within that marital privacy is equally guaranteed against such invasion and as such assumes the status of a right so guaranteed by the Constitution.

So we are talking about a right guaranteed by the Constitution. And in the second key passage he said:

If in the result notwithstanding the deletion of the subsection, the prohibition on sale had the effect of leaving a position where contraceptives were not reasonably available for use within marriage then that particular prohibition must also fall.

One does not have to be a constitutional lawyer to deduce from this clearly written statement that the prohibition on sale will be set aside as soon as it is contested by some married person whose guaranteed constitutional right to use contraceptives is being frustrated because they are not reasonably available due to the ban on sales.

I do not then see any merit in the amendment which has been tabled by the Leader of the House in a private capacity and by two other Senators. If we suspend judgment on Senator Robinson's Bill because its proposals have not been submitted by referendum to the decision of the people or if we do not pass a Government Bill, then we merely invite some citizen to test the constitutionality of subsection (1) of section 17 and we will wind up with a free for all situation that will be infinitely worse to the minds of those who submitted the amendment than the controlled conditions which Senator Robinson seeks to create or which the Government might seek to create in its own Bill.

To my untutored mind the proposers of the amendment, if they were successful, which I hope they will not be, would only succeed in maintaining the present restrictions on sales for a short time at the expense of unleashing a totally uncontrolled sale situation when some person brought that particular section to the Supreme Court and the Supreme Court or High Court inevitably set it aside. Therefore, the benefit to be derived from this short-term gain would not be commensurate with the damage, as they would see it, that will be inflicted when all controls are lifted consequent on the deletion of subsection (1).

The rational thing to do is to accept that the use of contraceptives by married couples has assumed "the status of a right guaranteed by the Constitution", and this situation cannot be reversed however much the proposers of the amendment might wish. They and their supporters must also accept that the only way they can now deny that right to married couples is to carry a referendum that expressly removes from Articles 40 and 41 those sections on which the Supreme Court judgment rested in the McGee case. But if they do that they will sweep away in addition many other, if not all, of the personal freedoms which are guaranteed in the Constitution and which, in one sense, are its crowning glory. These personal freedoms are indivisible and one cannot pick and choose, saying "I like this one and I oppose that one". They hang together because they derive from the nature of man and flow from man's personality in an inexorable fashion. Thus I contend that the logic of the present constitutional position is this: since we cannot, because we would not wish to, change the Constitution by diminishing our personal freedoms, then we must alter the law by enlarging the exercise of one of the freedoms.

The law can be altered in the manner proposed here with some modifications to which I will refer later. To pass this amendment is to fly in the face of reality and to behave in an illogical and inconsistent manner. It would be in the last analysis for those who support the thinking behind this amendment, the very contradiction of what they had hoped to achieve because the law will not stand still on the contraception issue. If the Seanad defeats the Family Planning Bill it will be no more than a legislative Canute which will be unable to sweep back the incoming tide of reform swelling in from the Supreme Court.

It is not surprising that the Supreme Court should have acted as they have when one considers the legal setting of the provisions governing a matter which has assumed the status of a right guaranteed by the Constitution. The Criminal Law (Amendment) Act of 1935 is entitled

An Act to make further and better provision for the protection of young girls and the suppression of brothels and prostitution, and for those and other purposes to amend the law relating to sexual offences.

Section 17, which contains four subsections, deal with the prohibition of the sale and importation of contraceptives. It is sandwiched between section 16 which deals with the suppression of prostitution and section 18 which deals with public indecency. It might be argued that the mentality which positioned access to contraceptives by married people in the middle of an Act dealing with sexual offences, some of them of a most heinous character, was defensible and excusable given the attitudes that prevailed in the mid-thirties. But it is neither defensible nor excusable, I submit, for us in the mid-seventies to defend a situation which makes the sale of a contraceptive to a married couple a contravention of a criminal law which also deals with the offences of keeping brothels and the defilement of young girls.

I do not believe in all fairness that those who wish to maintain the status quo, however impossible that might be now, wish to clarify as a criminal offence the sale and purchase of contraceptives by married couples. It would be more fitting and more in keeping with the spirit of our times that this intimate matter should be taken out of the field of criminal law and placed where it belongs in the arena of the law relating to the family. This Bill gives us the opportunity to do just that and accordingly should be supported even by those who find the use of contraceptives repugnant to their own private moral code, although another approach would be to repeal section 17 in its entirety and submit a Bill which regulated the importation and sale of contraceptives.

It is critically important in this debate that the Seanad should not support the proposition that the moral code of the majority should prevail to the extent that the law should remain unchanged. It is important that personal freedoms should be permitted expression, even though the exercises of some of them conflicts with, or is believed to conflict with, the moral teaching of the majority church. Intervention by the State cannot be justified on the grounds that a piece of legislation reflects the religious viewpoint of the majority because such is not the function of the State and we as legislators should not permit our private religious convictions to influence us in our determination of what is a matter of law. Mr. Justice Walsh put it on record in the McGee judgment and it is there for us all to study.

The fact that the use of contraceptives may offend against the moral code of the majority of citizens of the State would not per se justify an intervention by the State to prohibit their use within marriage. The private morality of the citizens does not justify intervention by the State into the activities of those citizens unless and until the common good requires it.

It is outside the authority of the State to endeavour to intrude into the privacy of the husband and wife relationship for the sake of imposing a code of private morality upon the husband and wife which they do not desire.

It would be intolerable if this Assembly irrespective of some of the private views publicly expressed of some of the Members, could be accused of defending in legislative form the moral teaching of an individual church simply because it was the teaching of that church. It had been my intention to berate an unfortunate delegate at the Fianna Fáil Ard Fheis last week for expressing in rather crude terms the belief that, because 90 per cent of the population of the Republic was Catholic, any change in the law would be against the moral teaching of the vast majority of the people and, therefore, the law should not be changed. Unfortunately, since she uttered those words more eminent people have expressed that argument. I believe this is in its crudest form the attitude that motivates most of the opposition outside of the Oireachtas to this Bill and, regrettably now, is present within it to some extent. I did not expect, I must confess, to hear it repeated in the House in a form just as crude as that expressed at the Fianna Fáil Ard-Fheis despite the philosophical gloss we heard this morning. The case put forward by the proposers of the amendment cannot be an argument which would find any merit with any Member of this House with a clear and precise idea of his function as a legislator and it is not an argument that should be given expression here in a serious debate, particularly, subsequent to the Supreme Court decision.

We were addressed collectively, as legislators, on November 25th last by the Roman Catholic Hierarchy on the subject matter here before us. Senator Quinlan read the address into the record of this House. Since I was amongst those addressed by the Bishops I think it only courteous to reply.

I was glad to be assured that "there are many things which the Catholic Church holds to be morally wrong and no one has ever suggested, least of all the Church herself, that they should be prohibited by the State".

That was comforting. The statement went on to say that those who insist on seeing the issues purely in terms of the State enforcing, or not enforcing, Catholic moral teaching, are, therefore, missing the point. If that be the case, and I accept the Bishops' presentation of their own position, I wish those many individuals who have written to me, some anonymously, enjoining me to vote against this Bill because it affronted Catholic moral teaching would have read with care and accuracy this explicit statement by the Bishops. I do not like being addressed as a heretic by people, however simplistic in their approach to Church/State matters and I wish the Bishops had been a little more trenchant in their exposition indicating the clear and definite separation of Church matters and State law.

They are not blameless in this because their statement did not go far enough in driving home the distinction between Church and State. They put it clearly enough but too softly when they said without further amplification or emphasis and I quote from their statement:

We emphasise that it is not a matter for bishops to decide whether the law should be changed or not. This is a matter for the legislators, after a conscientious consideration of all the factors involved.

This I contend is a little too ingenuous. I am convinced that a substantial block of the Bishops' faithful interpreted this statement as a directive and not as just another opinion which legislators would routinely consider before they came to a final decision.

It is necessary then, in this controversial area to put on the record what the Bishops said of themselves so that no one can either shelter behind a supposed directive or criticise an imaginary one. Whatever people decide is, in the ultimate, their own personal decision and that includes, in the Bishops' own words, those members of the Oireachtas who accept their guidance in spiritual matters.

In this House we deal with the law and not with theology. Although from what we have heard over the last few hours one could be pardoned for thinking otherwise.

In the course of their statement their Lordships made one political judgment with which I am in total disagreement and they must expect that when they stray into the arena of politics they will be subjected by legislators to the same impartial scrutiny as would be any other interest group. I disagree with them on the so-called abortion link which was also referred to by Senators O'Higgins and Quinlan. The bishops say that "the link between legislation on contraception and abortion is also significant; that there seems to be a chain reaction in these matters by which the first piece of legislation tends to set in motion a process of change which no one can control".

This charge was repeated here this morning. There is no such tendency in this country and to suggest that one exists is to make a serious error of judgment and, additionally, to make an argument founded on a false premise. Practically every one of the supporters of this or a similar Bill with whom I have spoken have indicated without equivocation that they abhor abortion, regard it as murder and would oppose it if introduced into the Houses of the Oireachtas. I personally oppose abortion and for my part do not intend my support for this Bill as a surreptitious method of preparing the ground for legislation on abortion.

I resent the categorisation of my attitude and the attitude of other Senators of like mind as a tendency that could set in motion a process of change that no one can control. The process can be and will be controlled because most if not all of those who support this Bill would also, in my view, oppose abortion on the grounds that it was murder.

In any event, the Supreme Court in its judgment in the McGee case has given us sufficient indication to prophesy that legislation to introduce abortion on demand would be unconstitutional as it would constitute a violation of the right to life. It said:

Any action on the part of either the husband or wife or the State to limit family sizes by endangering or destroying human life must necessarily not only be an offence against the common good, but also against the guaranteed personal rights of the human life in question.

I think this should put an end to the insidious argument that we are preparing the ground for abortion by taking this step on contraception. I hope that the debate will at least have the beneficial effect of stopping the flow of revolting literature to Senators luridly describing the horrors of abortion and on that account asking us to oppose Senator Robinson's Bill.

So far as the sociological argument against the abortion link is concerned I shall leave that to the professional sociologist on this side of the House who is far more skilled to comment on a few statistics adduced to demonstrate a spurious causal relationship between contraception and abortion.

Towards the end of this statement their Lordships ask us to make a realistic assessment as to whether a change in the law would have any significant effect at the present time on attitudes towards the reunification of our country. It is a good question. I welcome the request. Of course, the change would have a significant effect because those who are directly involved in Northern politics, particularly within the SDLP, have assured us that such change would have a significant long-term impact on attitudes towards unification. The SDLP annual conference passed resolutions to that effect, including those at their last annual conference at the end of 1973. My friend, Gerry Fitt, has spoken publicly of the necessity for making a change as proposed here so that the proper attitudes are inculcated both North and South towards unification.

In summary, then, we can conclude that the use of contraceptives by married persons has assumed the status of a constitutional right. The Supreme Court has already altered the law and is likely to do so again in the foreseeable future. There is no so-called abortion link between contraception and abortion and the passage of this legislation would have a significant impact for the better in the north.

This being so, we can address ourselves in Committee as to the restrictions if any, which might govern the sale of contraceptives. For my part I see two deficiencies in the present Bill and I hope that they will be remedied.

First, this Bill continues the free-for-all situation as regards the importation of contraceptives. Any 14-year-old can import such devices provided they have the address of an exporter and the money to pay for them. If provision is made for the sale of contraceptives then there will be no need for private individuals except in exceptional circumstances to import them and I would suggest that a new subsection be added to make their importation a matter upon which the Minister could make regulations. Such regulations would not be unconstitutional since there would be, in most cases, reasonable access to contraceptives through public sale. If reasonable access did not exist then importation could be permitted to the individual.

I believe this restriction to be desirable and an immediate necessity in view of the sales campaigns which have already been publicised by certain foreign distributors. At the moment there are no restrictions on mail orders or analogous methods of supply and distribution. They can be acquired by any person through importation, irrespective of age or marital status. To accept the amendment to this Bill would simply be to continue that free-for-all situation. However, if this Bill were passed, the importation could be regularised by confining it to licensed importers and specified individuals.

Secondly, I believe, however unpopular this proposition might be in some quarters, that a Family Planning Bill should logically confine the access to devices for family planning to those who constitute a family, in other words to the husband and wife.

It was on their rights as enshrined in Article 41 that the Supreme Court grounded its decision in the McGee case and Mr. Justice Walsh specifically indicated that his judgment offered no opinion on the availability of contraceptives outside marriage. Here I must disagree with Senator Robinson who quoted Chief Justice Fitzgerald.

The case was argued and won on the rights of the husband and wife as guaranteed by Article 41 protecting their marital privacy against invasion by the State. The present Bill does not, although described as a Family Planning Bill, pretend to confine the public sale of contraceptives to those who wish simply to plan their families. It provides for public sale to any person. In so doing I believe it goes against the reasoning and spirit behind the Supreme Court decision and leaves the Bill open to unnecessary criticism which in the last analysis might prove decisive when it comes to the determination of the matter. The Bill is in essence a Criminal Law Amendment Bill and is a misnomer. I have no hesitation, therefore, in asking the proposers to consider, on Committee Stage, incorporating a restriction along the lines suggested. An argument that it is administratively difficult is no argument against the principle and I personally would not entertain such an argument.

I hope the Second Stage of this Bill is passed if put to a vote. I shall vote for it and so shall all those Senators who value the civil freedoms enshrined in the Constitution and so also, shall all those Senators who, whatever their opinion on the private morality of using contraceptives, nonetheless respect the Constitution and accept their responsibility to safeguard and defend it. We cannot do less.

The last two items on the 9 o'clock radio news this morning followed each other in quick succession. They were:"The Second Stage of Senator Mary Robinson's Family Planning Bill is to be taken in the Seanad this morning, and the forecast —strong gales from the south-west". I was unaware what was intended until I heard Professor Quinlan. Between strong gales on this side of the House and Fine Gaels on the other we in the middle of the House feel rather exposed and battered, as if we were perched on some Parliamentary Rock-all.

However, I should like to begin my speech by paying a particular tribute to the proposer of this Bill, Senator Mary Robinson, who has for four years now endured a vast amount of buffeting. She has endured much more than myself or Senator West or anybody else in this House who supported this Bill. She has had to endure a good deal of misrepresentation and she has stood up to this in an extraordinary fashion. Anybody who has listened to her speech—I have heard no contrary view in this House —will agree that it has been a model of a presentation. It shows all the marks of a serious and responsible approach to this particular subject.

Before starting my speech proper, which I hope will not be long, I should like to make specific reference to a couple of points made by Professor Quinlan. Quite frankly I have some doubt about his abilities as a teacher if he takes the best part of two hours to tell us what he says can be taught—even to an uninstructed woman—in 20 minutes. It seems to me that there is a substantial difference of opinion between Professor Quinlan and myself about the world we are living in.

Professor Quinlan's speech was larded with references to the plain people of Ireland on whose behalf he apparently speaks. I would ask Professor Quinlan what world is he living in.

The present one.

Not only what world is he living in but what city is he living in.

Cork. Any other questions?

I will indeed ask Professor Quinlan several more questions if he is disorderly enough to answer them.

This is not a question-and-answer time.

Is Professor Quinlan unaware of the strong public reactions in his own city following the abrupt session of the work of the Catholic Marriage Advisory Council on a subject not unconnected with this Bill? Is Senator Quinlan equally unaware of the very strong public feeling in his own city after the ecclesiastical censure of Dr. James Good because of his statement which followed Humanae Vitae? Is Senator Quinlan unaware of the almost total rejection by the students of his institution of his stand on this matter? Is he aware of a total lack of public support of any member of the staff of the institution in which he teaches, for his points of view? Senator Quinlan was speaking out of context when he said that he was speaking for the plain people of Ireland. We should be very slow to accept his claim to be speaking on behalf of the plain people of Ireland.

I would like to turn, I think quite naturally, to the amendment which is before the House. Before doing that I just want to point out in perhaps 22 seconds that the only scientific report on the Billings method of fertility control to which he pays so much attention which has so far been published in a reputable journal, appeared in The Lancet of last year. This report indicates that this is a less effective method of fertility control than is coitus interruptus. I think that this should be taken into account as well and simply set against Senator Quinlan's rather expansive claims on its behalf.

I would like at this point to return to the amendment. It seems to me that not only is the amendment in itself peculiar, but that the proposer and the seconder of it also disagree about the sense in which it is to be interpreted. Senator Michael J. O'Higgins spoke on the amendment and refused to answer an interjection from Senator Mary Robinson who asked him quite simply if he meant to consult the people or what method he proposed to adopt. It seems to me that there are only two methods which one can propose to adopt. One can consult the people either by referendum or by means of a general election. This amendment and, indeed, its predecessor which actually specifically mentioned a referendum was not accompanied by a Private Members' Bill to hold a referendum on this issue. Senator O'Higgins did not say whether he would agree with the need to hold a general election on the matter. From the sheer point of consistency, the amendment must fall because no method of consulting the people—which is envisaged in the amendment and advocated by the amendment—has been included in it. It is an amendment which, if were passed, would be totally incapable of implementation other than by general election.

The other point, and the point about which I believe Senators Quinlan and O'Higgins are in conflict, is in relation to paragraph (6) of the amendment, which in the cleaned up version reads:

considering it desirable that people be consulted as to the enactment or otherwise of legislation which would...

When Senator Quinlan started speaking it was immediately quite obvious that he had no intention of consulting the people at all. He wants to create this extraordinary joint committee of the Oireachtas which would sit for goodness knows how many years.

Consult them afterwards or during it.

Does Senator Quinlan favour a general election on the issue?

No. There are other ways of consulting the people.

By way of a referendum, I suppose?

I asked to have it taken out of politics.

I do not see how you can take it out of politics and, indeed, I would agree to a certain extent——

Acting Chairman

Would the Senator address the Chair, please, and no interruptions?

I apologise to the Chair. As I have said, the method of consulting the people specified by Senator Quinlan, at least he specified one, seems to me to be a great deal more remote than the amendment would at first sight imply.

The basic standpoint from which I approach this Bill is not from the point of view of counting heads, but from the point of view of the rights of human beings. I would agree very much with Senator Halligan when he argued that the right to plan one's family and the right to reasonable access to methods of family planning is a human right. Senator Mary Robinson quoted from the Teheran Declaration which was signed not only by this country but by the Vatican as a sovereign State in its own right. When we talk about this issue we should not go around anxiously counting heads and asking: How many people are in favour of it and how many people are against it? This is important from a political point of view but it cannot allow us to escape the basic question of what we are planning to do; to give people something to which they are entitled. My choice of language is tautological. You cannot, of course, give people something to which they are entitled. If they are entitled to it they should have it. If you do anything preventing them from having it you are acting in a particularly restrictive way.

I was thinking of this, particularly, when Senator M.J. O'Higgins made his long and very thoughtful speech in which he based his opposition to the Bill very largely on the particular religious and moral make-up of the majority of the people of this country. I will put it to Senator O'Higgins, and, indeed, to the House that the particular religious composition and moral attitudes of the majority of the people of this country are, of course, of vital importance, but they cannot be invoked in order to deny a universal human right. There is a particular example of this which I think might interest the Senator when he returns —that is the debate which took place in the Second Vatican Council on the declaration on religious liberty. The basic principle at issue there was very similar to the one we are discussing here; was the Council going to tolerate something it regarded as an evil, or recognise something as a right? That debate was very long and very detailed. I do not propose to bore you with the details of it. It suffices to say that the final result of that debate was the recognition of religious liberty as a right. There was a defeat of the tolerance theory, the idea that this was an evil that had to be tolerated in order, perhaps, not to discriminate too severely against a small group of people. When we talk about the availability of contraceptives we are talking very much on the same line. Are we talking about tolerating something which is an evil or are we talking about recognising something which is a right? It is my very firm belief that here we are talking about something which is a right and because it is a right should be facilitated.

I might in passing draw Senator O'Higgins's attention and the attention of any Member of the House who may be interested, to a survey that was carried out by a reputable journalist into the availability or otherwise of contraceptives in ten countries, all of which were characterised by a substantially large Catholic population, and some of which, in fact, had Catholicism enshrined as the State religion. The countries he chose were Brazil, Chile, Costa Rica, Spain, Columbia, Portugal, Italy, France, Uraguay and Venezuela. In nearly all of these countries the more common type of contraceptives were freely available. In many of these countries the Government actually intervened in the business of family planning by facilitating, for one reason or another and in one way or another, people who wanted to plan their families responsibly. It does not follow that, just because the country has a large majority of Catholics in its population, or even has Catholicism enshrined as the State religion, that it does, or that we should adopt the kind of attitude towards the availability of contraceptives which is the status quo in this country at present.

We have to ask ourselves quite seriously whether this right of family planning needs to be inscribed in legislation. Of course, in a sense, it does not. For example, there is no legislation in Britain allowing the sale or manufacture or distribution of contraceptives. As far as I know, there has never been any legislation of this kind in Britain. Certainly there were legislative battles around the turn of the century, when advocates of family planning got hauled through the courts. This was not because they were in breach of anything like our Criminal Law (Amendment) Act; they were hauled through the courts under the Obscenity Acts. These prosecutions were eventually phased out and, as far as I know, there was no legislation of the kind we are trying to enact here at the moment even on the statute books in Britain.

Because of the way in which legislation has evolved in this country, we do need to inscribe this right into our legislation. It was wrong and unnecessary to put the prohibition on contraception into the law in 1935. Whatever justification there may have been at that time to take such an action, it has now completely disappeared because of the enormous changes that have taken place in Irish society since the thirties. Very few people are aware of the extraordinary nature of the changes that have taken place in Irish society over these years. Ironically, the population figures for 1935 and 1971—the most recent date for which figures are available—are almost identical, to within 10,000 or 20,000. In other words, there has been no actual change in the total number of population over the period yet there have been the most far-reaching and immense social and political changes to accompany this passage of time.

To choose the most obvious one: in the middle of the thirties for every one person living in towns of more than 1,500 population, there were two people living in the unspoiled countryside. Today, that position has been almost reversed. There are more people living in towns and in settlements of over 1,500 people today than there are living in the countryside. This is a graphic illustration of one of the most immense social changes that has hit Ireland in this century. It has created a whole new type of society, a whole new set of pressures, especially in marriage, and a whole new way of life for the vast majority of our people. Again, there has been a communication explosion over the same 30 years. We have had the growth of radio and of television. When we look at communications in their more ordinary sense, we can identify an increase in the number of motor cars from 60,000 in 1937 to 600,000 in 1971. The whole population has shifted from the towns and the fact that there are ten times as many motor cars as there were 30 years ago—all these are immense social changes which must be taken into account by our legislators.

Of course, the age structure has also changed. There has been growing industrialisation. The society of the thirties, which was a largely agricultural, perhaps even stagnant, society has now become one in which there is considerable upheavel, perhaps unrest, a sort of virbrant striving towards pluralism and a totally different way of life. A majority of the people now alive in this State have been born since the 1935 Act was passed. I suspect very much that the people who are legislating for this particular Bill or any other Bill were born before that Act was passed.

The other thing that is important to note is that the standard of living has gone up. I do not think it has gone up evenly in all areas and some of our priorities have been very much misplaced. One example is that we are now spending more in this county on alcohol and tobacco than we are on our educational system. I put it to you that this rise in the standard of living is not necessarily always a gain. Nevertheless, we have this terrific change in society and it has created a new situation in which this original prohibition —bad as it was at the time—is now absolutely insufferable to a large number of people.

Another change in Irish life over the last 30 years—especially over the last four or five years—has been a growing awareness of the North, a growing awareness that if we are serious in what we say about national reunification, we will have to be serious about examining all the implications of it. This point is sometimes overdone. A lot of political points sometimes are raised in relation to the North that add more heat than light to the debate. Yet it cannot be ignored and we should not ignore it in this debate either. Basically, my attitude to this is not very far from that expressed by a former Member of this House, and now a Government Minister, Deputy Garret FitzGerald. When he was speaking, in 1972, he said the following:

We should not change our laws simply in order to entice the Northern majority to reunite with us; such a policy would in any event bear little fruit. Rather must we do what we feel right for our own society in this State. But we must also recognise that this issue having now been posed, the total rejection by us of any reform and the consequent perpetuation of a provision that clearly infringes the rights of conscience of the religious minority here, as well as of many Roman Catholics, would have serious repercussions. The credibility of those— both Catholic and Protestant—in Northern Ireland, who have attempted to discredit a bigoted sectarian system, and who have advocated its replacement by a pluralist society, of the kind sketched out by Tom O'Higgins in the Presidential campaign of five years ago, and more recently endorsed by some Fianna Fáil spokesmen, would be destroyed if in this part of Ireland pressures from the authorities of the Church of the majority here could be alleged to have sabotaged a proposal for reform designed to secure the rights of private conscience of, in particular, our religious minority.

That speech made by Deputy Garret FitzGerald in opposition is——

Could the Senator give the reference for the convenience of Members?

The date is Monday, 29th March, 1972.

From the proceedings of Dáil Éireann?

No. It was a speech to the Government South-East Fine Gael Party in a public house in Balls-bridge.

I would agree with what Deputy FitzGerald said there. Later on in the same speech he pointed out that there had not been any great outcry about the moral fibre of Northern Catholics. It is fair to add that since he made that speech a number of people who are opposed to changes in the law here, have been arguing that there is a perceptible weakening of the moral fibre of Catholics in the North. This is a very peculiar and, indeed, dangerous line of argument, and I do not for a moment believe it to be true. But the fact that it is no more than bluff can be shown by the fact that these people who make such allegations about the weakening of the moral fibre in the North have no time to spare from attempting to block changes in the legislation down here to devote to attempts to introduce restrictive legislation up there. They realise very well where such an attempt would get them.

I should now like to touch briefly on our own Bill. Senator Robinson has dealt with this fully and I do not intend to repeat much of what she has said. I should like to comment briefly on the restrictions which may or may not be enforced in such a Bill by way of amendment and, in particular, on what Senator Halligan has said. The first restriction he mentioned—something to do with controlling the importation of contraceptives—is something on which any reasonable group of people could very easily come to an agreement. His other restriction—specifically to married couples—is much more dangerous and much more difficult.

It is only a few days since the Fianna Fáil Ard-Fheis took place. The former Minister for Justice mentioned specifically such a restriction and added the possibility of a restriction to people over a certain age and said quite bluntly that it was no business of the Oireachtas to be introducing such restrictions which would be completely unworkable in practice. My position on this is quite reasonable. I would be prepared to accept a Bill with an age restriction but only as an alternative to no Bill at all. Indeed, I would oppose any attempt to introduce an age restriction into a Bill, because I believe it to be stupid and unworkable. I would accept such a Bill if it was the only kind of Bill we would get but I would point out to the House and to Senator Halligan the dangers and the awkwardness of a restriction.

It is bad law to make laws which, of necessity, will be broken tens, hundreds and thousands of times. It is not so very long since we were discussing the Offences Against the State (Amendment) Act in this House and I argued specifically against one particular section of it, the definition of "document" under the Act on the grounds that it would create a situation in which every chemist who processed photographs for customers was de facto in breach of the Bill as it was and the Act as it became. In other words, if there were an incriminating document, the Government wanted to catch at that time, they were prepared to introduce a legislative provision which made de facto criminals, even if never prosecuted, of thousands of people who are going about their ordinary everyday life in a normal workaday way. This seems to be the kind of result that would flow from putting an age restriction into a Bill like this.

Another obvious result of putting an age restriction into a Bill would be a possible conflict between age and marriage. We debated a measure in this House in the last session which gave the Government power to raise the minimum age of marriage. To the best of my knowledge the minimum age of marriage has not yet been raised, so that even if one did introduce an age qualification we would still be faced with the problem that there are people who might have subsisting valid marriages who would be under the age at which they might require methods of family planning.

These are some of the grave doubts I have about introducing restrictions of that kind into a Bill. When you talk about the question of restrictions you have to weigh the whole matter quite calmly and reasonably. If you believe that putting contraceptives on open sale will result in hundreds and thousands of teenagers flocking to the chemist shops, then I suppose in conscience you must vote against it. If you believe that the important thing is that methods of family planning should be reasonably widely available to families, then I think you will accept that there are going to be people—and there are going to be people whether or not there is an age restriction—who will have access to methods of family planning who are not fathers or mothers of families. You have to balance the need against the likely consequences.

It is a well known principle of Catholic moral theology—certainly of Catholic moral theology as it used to exist—that the greater good is a very legitimate argument for doing something. In this set of circumstances, I would think that the concept of the greater good would urge in a non-controversial way the general availability of methods of family planning subject to the type of conditions which are written down in our Bill.

A number of speakers have dealt with the alleged consequences of changing the law. I should like to refer briefly to these. The first of these alleged consequences is that we would immediately have a vastly promiscuous and sexually permissive youth culture. On this—and indeed on all hypotheses of this kind—I should like to quote Deputy Garret FitzGerald. Speaking on the same occasion he pointed out that:

To argue that no change whatever in the present law should even be considered because any change would inevitably lead to the collapse of our system of public morality was to assert a hypothesis but not to demonstrate its truth.

I will leave the job of demonstrating its unprovability to people who are better qualified than I am and simply quote Deputy FitzGerald in support of my view that it does not necessarily follow at all that because any event follows any other event in order of time it is linked to it in a casual relationship. We have an enormous problem in persuading people that this is the case. As legislators, as people with our wits about us, we should be taking more seriously the job of educating the people and persuading them and showing them that this does not necessarily follow.

There is no evidence that I am aware of that Irish youth at the moment are in any way grossly sexually permissive. That being so, I do not think we should insult Irish youth by implying that a change in legislation, such as we are advocating here, will suddenly turn them into a horde of ravening sex maniacs. People do not just work like this and societies do not work like this. Social attitudes are more important in many cases than legislation. I think this is true, unfortunately, in both directions. For example, we have very strong legislation about drinking and yet the social attitude to drink is very permissive. The social attitudes will govern the behaviour of young people and their own innate standards will govern their behaviour much more than any legislative change, especially a change of a modest nature as is proposed by us in this Bill.

Any evidence that I am aware of from other countries goes to show that the people who are sexually promiscuous have no—if I may use the word—family consciousness at all. The availability of alcohol, in particular, is a far greater stimulus to extramartial sexual intercourse than the availability of contraceptives. We have to be clear-headed about this. We cannot make sweeping statements which we cannot justify with evidence. I am not aware of any evidence that the youth of this country will go down the drain if we change the law. Any evidence that I am aware of tends to suggest that there would be no change at all.

However, in relation to standard society in general I would make a positive plea for a change in the law because there is a particular moral value in freedom. It is a moral value which is not sufficiently recognised in our society today. The role of society, of churches and of laws is to help people to grow. If we have a society in which freedom in many important areas simply does not exist, then people will not grow; they will remain morally stunted, morally immature and morally infantile. There is a positive value in changing our law in order to widen an area of freedom because we will also be widening an area of growth, of social maturity and responsibility. There is no moral value in doing something good if you cannot do anything else. The moral value of freedom and the role of choice in allowing people to grow by making their own mistakes towards maturity is only paid lip service in this country.

The statement from the Catholic Hierarchy quoted by Senator Quinlan spoke of an "environment for moral living". My contention is that the environment in this country at present is so restrictive in so many respects that the possibilities for moral living take place in the quality of life, and particularly in the right to life. What have been severely curtailed.

Next perhaps among the alleged consequences of change in the law are changes which, it is suggested, would is Irish life? What kind of qualities characterises Irish life at present? I would agree with Senator O'Higgins that respect for the individual and respect for the institution of marriage are among the qualities which are respected in Irish life today. But there are other characteristics of Irish life which are more deleterious to the common good. We have a society which in many ways is very authoritarian and because of this is very permissive — not sexually permissive, nor permissive in the sense in which Senators who would oppose this Bill might argue, but permissive because if you have an authoritarian society it follows that the further up the ladder of authority you climb the less anybody can do to correct you, the more freedom you have to do what you like to anybody who is below you. We have strong authoritarian currents in our society and we should work patiently and with sympathy and understanding to eradicate them.

We also have—and it is particularly relevant to this Bill—a gross hang-up with regard to sexual morality. We have become so obsessed with sexual morality that we have forgotten almost completely that sexual morality in itself is only a secondary goal. The main goal that sexual morality is related to is the goal of a happy and secure family life. I could not stress this enough. It is believed with considerable strength by all three people who are behind this Bill. The main goal is a happy and secure family life. We have lost sight of this goal. The whole discussion has been displaced. It has left the family and has been focused with a rather narrow search light type of beam on to the particular intricacies of sexual activity. This has been a great loss to our society and in our obsessions with this very limited aspect of family morality or reproductive morality we are in grave danger of letting the main goal go completely by default.

The problem about focusing on sexual morality and ignoring family morality is that sexual morality is spoken about by people in a very personal way for obvious reasons. Instead of a reasonably dispassionate discussion about the kind of standards of family and reproductive morality that we need to help grow in our society we have a whole rash of opinions rarely if ever substantiated by fact, often fuelled by obsessions, by almost pathological feelings of one kind or another and even in some cases by sexual jealousy. Sexual jealousy of the old for the young is nothing new in any society. We should be aware of it when discussing sexual morality. We should not be distracted by it from focusing on family morality, on the safety and security of family life which is what, in its fundamental sense, this Bill is all about.

The quality of family life is for me one of the most important things in this country. This is why we have introduced this Bill. It is why we have called it—and no apologies to Senator Halligan—the Family Planning Bill. Senator Quinlan spoke about the right to life in his attack on the abortofacients. I believe too, in a right to life of children. But to what kind of life? There is life and life. I am not saying that intrinsically any type of life is any more valuable than any other type. But I must take issue with him when he praised large families as the best source of happiness, all the more so because of his own admission that the research which he conducted on this very delicate problem was conducted in a very restricted arena, namely the university in which he teaches, the students whom he teaches and the staff who are his colleagues. It is all very well to have a large family if you can afford one. Large families in comfortable circumstances are a splendid thing and nobody can criticise them, but according to the most recent statistics of which I am acquainted there are no more than 9 per cent of students in universities who come from the working or lower middle classes in our society. This is the area in which large families are not always the unalloyed pleasure that Senator Quinlan would like them to be. These are the families in which the children after the fifth are increasingly at risk in social, psychological, mental and even physical terms. When we speak about the right to life we are arguing about the right to a decent life, of the largest possible number of people.

I would like to quote a paragraph from a survey which was done by a student in Senator Quinlan's institution into the attitudes of people towards the methods of family planning. The results of this survey I do not intend to quote because it was a very small sample of people and could be, perhaps, statistically and scientifically faulted as being not sufficiently representative. Suffice it to say that there was a very large majority both in middle class and working class areas who would approve a change in the present law on family planning. One of the paragraphs in this report states:

Great concern was shown by all mothers about the costs of rearing and educating their children and it was evident that the welfare of their families was the raison d'etre for these women. Concern was expressed by many respondents that they would have time to play with their children, teach them and develop their understanding of the world.

This kind of motivation is behind the sponsors of this Bill. We call this a Family Planning Bill because we believe it could make a significant difference and a significant improvement in the quality of family life in this country, and in the quality of the lives of the children in Irish families.

At the same time we would agree that we do not consider this Bill to be a panacea for the ills of society or a panacea in the area of the quality of family life. Anybody who has studied the record of this House and the record of Senator Robinson and, I hope, of myself and Senator West will agree we are not one-issue people; that the issues to which we have addressed ourselves are those which span the widest possible spectrum of social legislation. We are not putting this Bill forward in the belief that if it were passed the brave new world would be ushered in in all its glory the following morning. We are far too realistic for that. Whether the Bill is passed or not, we will continue to show our concern for a general improvement in the quality of life through legislation and otherwise. Even in the restricted area of family planning, I argue that this Bill is not a panacea. If we were to introduce this Bill by itself without any backup service of any kind it would be almost useless and, perhaps, dangerous because any Bill of this kind should logically be accompanied by a massive, sustained and sympathetic educational effort designed at making young people aware of what are commonly called the facts of life, of helping them sympathetically to grow into the realisation and appreciation of their own sexuality, their own responsibilities and of their own growing and developing personal relationships with others. This is a very modest instrument, indeed, for accomplishing all that. We do not pretend it would accomplish it but we believe strongly that unless this Bill; or something reasonably like it, becomes part of the law of this land relatively soon, we will be failing in our duty to people not just because of the change in the law following the court decision, but we will be condemning ourselves to an indefinite number of years of further frustration and barren disputation. There have been allegations, as I said, about the consequences which would follow the introduction of such a Bill. I have argued—not in any detail because I am not competent to do so— that these consequences would not necessarily follow; but I would argue with some feeling that there are many consequences which will follow if we do not pass this Bill or something very like it in the near future. The first of these consequences will be the continuation of the sort of public hypocrisy we have at the moment with some 38,000 women taking a form of medication that is effectively a contraceptive and yet at the same time we are supposed not to allow this to happen. We will have the continuation of gross illegality as inevitably a growing black market situation developes in contraceptives, a growing and totally uncontrolled system of illegal distribution, illegal purchase and illegal sale. We will also have intense hardship especially for the poor who are trying to raise families and who cannot afford a private doctor who will prescribe the pill for them; for the poor who cannot afford to pay for the pill in many cases even if it were prescribed for them, assuming also it was safe for them.

We will have public hypocrisy, gross illegality and intense hardship if we reject this Bill. We will also have the perpetuation of a climate of over-dependence, over-protection and social and moral immaturity. It is because I believe passionately that this particular issue, about the exact importance of which there may be many different opinions, offers us an opportunity we have not had for a long time as a country to show our maturity, to show our responsibility, to show our capacity to evolve, that I support and recommend it to the House.

We have had a good debate so far with many different points of view being expressed in disagreement—that is as it should be. I hope there have been open minds operating. When this issue first commanded my attention as a matter of public legislation by the introduction of the First Reading, my own position in the situation in which the laws of the country were then found to be was quite open-minded. I did not and do not yet see, save for the development caused by the Supreme Court decision, the matter being anything like as simple on either side of the argument as many people seem to think. It is extremely complex and wide ranging. The results of any decision we make will be obscure and difficult to discern and the rightness or wrongness of any solution we give to the problem will not be easy to be certain about.

Looking at my post and reading my newspapers what has struck me in relation to this debate is the odd paradox that those who are in the historical orthodox Christian position with regard to the central moral issue seem, for the most part if not for all of them, to show little charity. On the other hand, those who are on the liberal side of the argument seem to be mostly extraordinarily narrow, simple-minded and dogmatic in their approach. I must talk about myself today, as some French fellow said: "We talk about ourselves whenever we have not the strength to be silent." One element in my intellectual and emotional make-up leads me to one side of the argument and another leads me to the other, and this leads to nearly total paralysis if you are my kind of fellow. It is very difficult to claw your way out of the darkness in which you find yourself. I am very conscious of all I do not know in relation to this issue. There are historical questions involved, moral questions obviously, sociological questions, psychological questions, even questions of medical science and jurisprudential questions. Any acquaintance I would have with any of these arts or skills will be that of a gentleman and an amateur. In the circumstances in which I find myself, I must do as men have got to do and make the best decision I can with such knowledge as I have got and judge what the situation requires, having regard to what one has got to do in this place.

In this place we are obviously legislating. We have a duty to do in justice to the people who sent us here and under the Constitution which constituted this body. The degree of virtue required of us is more than I imagine any of us would feel we had to discharge or take on the burdens of the responsibilities that are ours. I have got to say — and it will be I think the only positive statement of that kind that I will make — and I have never made it before, and it may perhaps even point the way I may be going in relation to this, that I am actually a believing member of the Roman Catholic Church which is to say expressly that I believe that its teachings are true and, properly understood, to me are authentic. I accept them as binding on my conscience.

I derive from that a variety of rights that people who talk about Home rule meaning Rome rule do not seem to appreciate as being the position of such as I with regard to the discipline of this community. I have to restrain myself from a triumphalism with regard to the church achievements historically. I think they are quite extraordinarily and temporarily underrated but, of course, these fashions pass. Their achievements are particularly great in this country.

If I may pass rapidly from this point I find extraordinarily painful and embarrassing the degree of lack of self-confidence shown among Irish Catholics about their own achievements and about their own Church. I regard it as a remarkably retrogressive feature of Irish life. I wonder will it take us ten, 20 or 30 years to crawl out of it, but out of it we have got to come. I do not intend to go attributing reasons. It is not only irrelevant to the Family Planning Bill—if anything I have said has been, certainly this would not be—to try to analyse why this is so. One particular point might possibly be made. According to one notable interpretation the fall of Parnell had a remarkable effect on the literary and intellectual development in Irish life. I think this particularly unfortunate episcopal intervention may have been a large contributor to this affair.

Twenty years ago I wrote an essay on this whole business of justice and the State. It was on the church and State thing which, of course, is as we all know wholly involved in this affair. It is nonsense saying anything else. I wrote that from a Christian point of view, in fact properly understanding what Christ's claims rightly are and, as a matter of justice, that the State has a moral authority and a dignity that the citizens must give it which requires particularly legislators as a matter of justice to resist their ecclesiastical authorities in their particular positions in relation to matters which fall within their sphere.

I have noted the tone and good manners of the bishops' declaration and I must say to Senator Robinson, if the Chair will permit me, that I do think historians who look back on this debate, if they depend upon Senator Robinson's notable contribution, will wonder were there other churches in the country except the four that she mentioned. It was quite extraordinary to pass without any criticism all their interventions and to make no mention of the intervention of the church commanding 95 per cent of the people's allegiance which has been much criticised for having intervened.

I have no doubt Senator Browne, who will speak rapidly after me, will tear me apart in his frank fashion. On that, the whole attitude of the church and the State has obviously improved. The good manners of that document indicated that we are now really only left on this question of moral authority, with the moral outlaws on the left and the right of these idolators of nationalism and the idolators of Marxism, less active at the moment, who challenge the whole validity of the western free society anyhow and not merely our society.

Senator Robinson receives, properly, so much flattery that she should take warning from Adlai Stevenson's remark when he said: "Flattery is very good for everyone provided you do not inhale". I recommend her not to inhale. I thought it might be possible to say that she was, in relation to some matters, a little bit dogmatic. For example, I noted her as saying that the law cannot be used to enforce standards of private morality. I think this is a very questionable proposition. I do not think it is possible to make an assertion of that kind. I think there are countless different views on the matter. You may end up with the conclusion that "this is your view that you should not", but it is a disputable proposition.

There is a long tradition stretching from the Greeks, and certainly preceding Christ, but not set aside by Him, of the view that it is a proper concern of the State, that is to say, the moral life of its citizens. The general idea about that is the reasonable platonic view that it is the way you behave yourself, the quality of your own life, the decisions you make yourself, the making of your own character which, in fact, is the most potent influence on your society, and that from your activity, as such, you make the society or tend to determine the society in which you live.

I recognise that there is that other school which has developed since which has properly valued the interaction of society on the individual in limitation of choice, et cetera. There is a tradition justifying the State taking a view with regard to this, even if it only be that it is necessary for the State for its own ability to carry on and for its own ability to endure. This has been even continued in our time. We talk about the State's interventions in relation to restrictions on liberties in the common good or, as you get it in that curious inexact phrase, of “the greatest happiness of the greatest number”, whatever that means, as if you could add up happinesses as in a series of jars and divide them by two.

This is the utilitarian view but the idea would be that the State's job is to look after the greatest happiness of the greatest number and, therefore, to intervene in relation to moralities. Thinkers have differed on this question about State rights. They have differed about how they should be exercised. They have differed on the question of how circumscribed that exercise should be. It is really difficult to get a statement that would be satisfactory to everyone on the matter. The common sense which can be gathered from the conflicting positions is that the law should not at least be overly concerned with preventing sin. As someone said, that is an enterprise in which it has been notably unsuccessful. The view, for example, is to be found nearly everywhere that laws making illegal sexual congress in private are laws which are bad laws. Although, not to go into that just now in the range and depth in which I shall later, there are certain aspects, in fact, of our legal system which cannot be reconciled with that general statement. The view is, to get down to common sense which might possibly be acceptable to the House, that laws on the whole should be limited to the regulation of those aspects of conduct which are predominantly social rather than private. It should be concerned not so much with intrinsic goodness but rather more with the common good and the social aspects of goodness. Only in this kind of way will the laws be acceptable and capable of being administered and, therefore, useful.

This problem which we are now trying to cope with is set really in a larger setting. The setting in which that problem has got to be placed is the kind of State we want to create, sustain and improve, and the kind of relations we ought to have with a church and, indeed, with all the churches, the kind of State we ought to have which would have its relations with people who rejected all churches.

We can lead into that question by considering the primary matter. The morality of the use of the designated articles—artificial contraceptives—is a question at any rate wide open for rational discussion. People may take different views on it. We are not now discussing whether it is a good thing or a bad thing to prevent a father slaughtering his son. This is not one of those moral propositions easily received by the human mind. This is a matter of rational discussion. I think that each of us ought to respect the positions in which people may find themselves.

The revolutionary nature in historical terms of what is being proposed is perhaps insufficiently appreciated and the natural, human objection of being subjected to this revolution should, perhaps, be better understood, better allowed for, less condemned, more compassionately and more sensitively received. After all, there is a very long period of thousands of years not just since Christ, but long before Christ, a long Judaic-Christian prohibition of the use for these contraceptives. It is not surprising that if this were enacted as legislation that some people who have been in that tradition of thousands of years will say: "God almighty, what are they up to?" That would seem a natural reaction. If they do say that I do not think that people should be howling at them "Home rule is Rome rule". Sometimes I wish that home rule was Rome rule, incidentally. That is another matter and quite remote from what I am talking about.

These are people who are both inside and outside the Roman discipline who do not regard the use of contraceptives as conscientiously possible and never will, irrespective of the regulations of any church of which they may be members. If this is their view for themselves, I feel it right to say that I do not think we should fail to respect the position of these people. This is their view as to what is right for themselves. At its best, it represents a reverence for life, an appreciation of fruitfulness, a fidelity to the old Pauline concept that the body is the temple of the Holy Spirit, a total rejection of the hedonism of the consumer society. It is a recognition of an intellectual dissatisfaction with trying to operate on a code without a moral absolute. It is an intellectually respectable position and I think should be respected by all of us.

There are some in this kind of position acting in this way, that is, in regard to personal disciplines and perhaps with a wish to impose them on others too who are not so highminded. I would like to do a little analysis here, if I may. I think that there are atavistic elements present. When the survival of the race was paramount the condemnation of practices which endangered the survival of the race was an inevitable feature socially. There is this social tradition surviving in a time when many may think that this is not viewed globally.

I hesitate to get into the debate on the question of whether population control on an international basis is our business today. I suggest—if I might ask you all to be merciful to at least one Senator—to circumscribe the debate by excluding that. I have just simply recorded that I observe there is serious division of opinion on the matter among very informed people. While there is this division of opinion it is at least possible for a lot of people to think that the problem of survival has been replaced by the problem of fertility. The reaction to the necessity for survival has survived into the time when the problem for many was the problem of fertility.

We did not talk about this in my young days—at least only among our friends—but now we bandy these articles around in conversation with people of all ages and sexes. The contraceptives really have a murky past. They were associated with the activities of the libertine. Mr. Kenneth Tynan had a very interesting article the other day on a new book on eroticism in which he referred to the anti-Christian social thing which had gone on for a couple of centuries. You will find it in French literature. You will find it in Anna Karenina. The use of contraceptives was Anna Karenina's sin, if I remember correctly—the thing which led on to her suicide. They were really the personal effects of the libertine and the furnishings of the brothel. It is, therefore, not too surprising that right-minded people just do not like this conversation at all and would rather like to get away from it all.

Another matter which I do not think has been mentioned in the discussion is that all this modern campaign for birth control, in fact, is due to the activity of the neo-Malthusians whose activities would have horrified the Reverend Mr. Thomas Malthus even more than the activities of the Marxists would have horrified Karl Marx, he being the decent academic philosopher that he was. The neo-Malthusians in fact were for the most part violently anti-Christian. Therefore, of course, they affected the ecclesiastical reaction to their recommendations as to what was desirable. If I find myself ending up in support of this Bill it may seem extraordinary that an aging and fat Senator should end his days as a modern-day Marie Stopes. It is all very odd but at any rate that did affect the attitude of a lot of people. It is understandable particularly when a person may not know about the elements that are affecting him. Senator Horgan who has, unfortunately, left us referred to the sexual jealousy of the aged for the young. I am sorry he did not stay to fight that one out with me. The psychology of the abstainer and of the previously potent might possibly be a feature in the debate. On the other side of the argument I think is a conscience very often obscured by a desire to justify either present or past practices. The intellectual conclusions of such a conscience may be somewhat questionable if we are viewing the whole operation as objectively as I imagine we are trying.

Now that is one whole group in the role of the Catholic Church—all that crew—affected by different forces. There are many others who are really not convinced by the arguments at all. They do not believe that there is anything in Revelations and cannot sustain it by wholly acceptable quotation from that source. The remarkable thing is that in Humanae Vitae, there is no citation from the New Testament. I hope somebody will correct me if I am wrong. When I looked for them I could not find one. Are they satisfied that the natural law is necessarily applicable or do they just accept it? Take what view they may on the statement many judge it their right and duty viewing the weighty claims of the Church to accept it. So they accept the applicability of the Petrine principle in their position, and it is a very orderly situation.

Many others do not and are unhappy about the regulations that they think are applicable. Then there are people who have been well represented—the leaders of their different churches who are not burdened by Papal pronouncements. Other Christians who are, perhaps, even reinforced by this particular Papal pronouncement to reject the Papal claims —this is their position. Then there are people who do not accept Christ at all. All of these people have rights as citizens and they cannot be denied this without injustice. The different positions of these people must be reconciled in some such fashion that the law may be just, duly respected and applied in circumstances so widely accepted that its impositions are not felt excessive and onerous.

What is our situation? It is a situation in which there is wide disagreement as to what even is the proper private morality. It is a situation in which the responsible leaders of important Christian denominations uniquely since the foundation of the State have felt that they should intervene and claim that the laws were unjust. It is a situation in which part of the law has been found unconstitutional and the ports and the frontiers thrown wide open and left totally free of all control. Other parts of that law are of dubious constitutionality. It is a situation in which there are certain types of contraceptives—the oral contraceptives which it is thought by many doctors have almost certain damaging side effects. Until the Supreme Court decision was given down there was no other choice before these doctors where there was a desire for an artificial contraceptive but to prescribe what was in their view unsuitable. It is a situation in which there is discernible evidence to the naked eye that there is wide use of the prohibited contraceptives. It is a situation in which our law differs from the law of people with whom we desire to be reconciled. It is a situation in which our frontier is widely exposed to importation; it is as widely exposed to importation of articles designed to prevent the creation of life as it is to the importation of articles designed to destroy it. It is a situation in which some men under our laws and in our society and by our decision must engage in criminal offences to permit a use licit and even dutiful in the view of responsible religious people. It is a situation in which with dubious wisdom the State is directing laws amounting to a dangerous invasion of an area from which it ought to be excluded—that of family and family jurisdiction.

If this invasion is permitted today what invasions will be precedented for tomorrow? The legal situation, if I may very quickly summarise it, seems to be: the use of artificial contraceptives is legal; their manufacture is legal, their distribution is legal; their importation is legal; and it is very likely that the prohibition on sale of them may be unconstitutional. I take the view that we are not fit for self-Government if we do not face into framing a law to deal with that situation. We should hold the nettle firmly and taking such stings as would undoubtedly come from it. This is what should and I believe will be done.

Perhaps I should have ended that last summary of the law by saying that the day before yesterday a District Justice held, for some astonishing reason—talk about the dog that did not bark—that the IUD was not a contraceptive. What he thought it to be I cannot imagine. At any rate that is the present state of the law. We also know that the oral contraceptives are widely used.

I should like to quote Dr. Birch, the Bishop of Ossory. On the 21st September, 1972 he was reported in the London Times as saying as follows:

In spite of the law prohibiting the sale of contraceptives he, Dr. Birch, admits that they are readily available to those who know where to go. The law seems to bolster this situation which makes it a bad law.

We have touched on this question and it must be looked at closely, if only to dispel certain illusions. I am delighted that the Leader of the House has arrived because owing to his absence I was prevented from opening my speech by saying that I was going to quarrel with Senator Robinson, for being more dogmatic on some points than a usurping Pope; with Senator Quinlan—an experienced parliamentarian—for making a statement that was quite dubious parliamentary-wise; and with Senator O'Higgins for being in heresy, for which I was most sorry.

The unkindest cut of all.

I would have been unfair to make this charge, leading no doubt to unsuitable procedures of a punitive kind in due course, until he arrived.

In fact he has been here.

I did not appreciate that I was being so encouraged. There has been a very interesting development over the last 150 years. On this "Home Rule, Rome Rule" stuff we underrate ourselves completely. The whole church position in relation to democracy has been transformed by one man—an Irishman, Daniel O'Connell, the most potent influence in the development of modern Catholic politics. Then through American influence by Courtenay Murray. There has been a movement of both liberal and church leaders to reach what appears to be a very common agreed position with regard to this.

I should like to say something about the Irish Constitution. There has been an inclination for people to sneer at it, which is a sign of our lack of self-confidence: nobody sneers at the British Constitution in Britain. In 1937 the Irish Constitution was a very meritorious and farseeing document. It is very interesting to note that it is by virtue of that Constitution that these rights of Mrs. McGee have now been found to exist and to be enforceable in the law. At the time the Constitution was introduced it was in an unfashionable philosophical tradition. It rejected legal positiveness and did not take the view that the State conferred rights on people. It said that the rights citizens had were anterior to and superior to anything that the State wanted to do. In fact, the whole natural rights movement—which got a fresh revival in the 1940s, because of the shock to the world conscience of discovering what the Nazis were doing—they found that they had to construct some abstract system of justice which could stand the criticism of positive law and say: "These are illegal and are bad and unjust laws, because they breach certain rights." This is a return to the natural law tradition, which long preceded the church. Everyone thinks that everything comes out of the church and started with a few fishermen. This is not true. There is an awful lot of inherited syncretistic wisdom that is drawn from all over the place, and we should be awfully slow about throwing it out of the window.

In the 1940s, they did produce the declaration of human rights, which was largely drafted in that great tradition by a man called Jacques Maritain. What do we find in agreeing the common position? There is the citizen's absolute right to choose and adhere to any set of religious beliefs, or no set of religious beliefs. However, there is a distinction drawn in both codes. I shall bore you with quotations, for which I am sorry. There is the business here of shoving it on to the record rather more than absorbing the community that one is being permitted to address. There is a distinction between the rights of belief and the right to action on that belief. By essential nature, there must be a difference. There must be a theoretical limit to the right to action on belief, and there are many instances of action in the restriction of that right to belief which I can give you later. Obviously, if you thought it a frightfully agreeable thing to eat your son for dinner, and thought that this was a very good way of appreciating and honouring your ancestors, that is your belief— but you cannot eat your son for dinner. That is the law. There is a limitation on your right to act in accordance with this belief drawn by reference to the common good. It is difficult here to draw the line and difficult to express the basis on which one does restrict. But you find that community of view as to the kind of restrictions you can impose and, in fact, are imposed.

Jefferson spoke of this freedom, this right, to believe. "There is a right which belongs to each individual because he was created free by God to decide for himself." I have always wondered at Christians getting so excited about people doing this or that, if they believe in God. This was the way He made them—if you believe in God—and you should not really think that you can improve on that particular design. Jefferson was quite clear on it. He said: "Not to respect it would be a departure from the plan of the Holy Author of our religion". America developed under his influence into a State entirely separate from any church. Dr. Tocqueville said: "There is no country in the world"—we are talking about 120 years ago—"where the Christian religion retains a greater influence over the souls of men." He said that in America religion exercises but little influence over the laws or on the details of public opinion.

Dr. Birch is pertinent on this point. In that same interview he is recorded as saying that "in the past you could argue that the Church needed the help of the State in these matters but from now on it is my opinion that we should be prepared to stand on our own feet and religious persuasion." Speaking for the moment as a Christian, it is incidentally the view of St. Paul. "This may be a wicked age but your lives should redeem it". Christ was not a political Messiah: he did not get elected Governor of Jerusalem. He chose to save people by dying for them, not by oppressing them with his Divine Wisdom.

The Vatican Council on this states that not by force of laws does Christ's truth assert its claim. The Church rests her trust in her conviction that she poses the truth. The truth cannot impose itself except by virtue of its own truth, as it makes its entrance into the mind at once quietly and with calm. The truth is that the Church has in its developed doctrine, as you would expect it to, learned from all, learned from the Jeffersonian thought, has accepted the position of Jefferson that where there is open competition between truth and evil in the market-place, the truth will prevail.

On this question of freedom Vatican II states "The nature of freedom means all men are to be immune from coercion, that no one is to be restrained from acting in accordance with his beliefs, whether alone or in association with others within due limits." Do you not think Rome Rule is rather better than Dublin Rule has been on that point? "Nor is a man to be restrained from acting in accordance with his conscience. The right to this immunity continued to exist even for those who do not live up to their own obligation of seeking the truth". Forgive me for quoting the Church documents, but they have a universal significance. This is important to me, relevant to our discussion and it is establishing the absolute right of freedom from the Church in the views of the Church.

Vatican II seems to be stating that the moral law binds us to have respect for the rights of others and that that is a moral obligation on us. As I have stated, the question of the right to interfere with the right to act is a subject for considerable speculative discussion. I am no doctor of jurisprudence, I just know the range of the debate. There is general agreement that the law has a right to impose its sanctions where public morality is involved. Some would say that action is legitimate only in this sphere. John Stuart Mill states that "The only purpose for which power can rightfully be exercised on any member of the civilised community against his will is to prevent harm to others. His own good"—I do not accept this—"either physical or moral is not of sufficient warrant; he cannot rightfully be compelled to do or forbear because it would be better for him to do so; because it will make him happier, because in the opinion of others to do so would be wise and right."

This doctrine is to apply to human beings who are mature. It is not to apply to children or to backward societies. His limitation on public action is regarded by some as dogmatic and is widely criticised on the grounds that no man is an island and that his private viciousness takes quick toll of his friends and of the public generally. It was rejected in a very disreputable case, but I think I will adopt it and to blazes with any unpopularity which may be flowing from it; I refer to the Ladies Directory case of 1961. It would be unseemly, even on a Family Planning Bill, for me to give you the detailed evidence which was presented in that case. It would lead to family unplanning. Some of the judges went so far as to claim that one of the objects of the common law was to punish immorality. James Fitzjames Stephen, the great Victorian historian of the criminal law—and this might be worth recording—stated "that the law should be directed to persecution of the grosser forms of vice". I do not think that chap was a Christian—that was a liberal opinion.

Lord Justice Devlin has claimed there are no theoretical limits to legislation against treason and sedition and likewise there can be no theoretical limits to legislation against immorality. He instances an example —drunkenness and gambling—and cited the Royal Commission on Betting Losses and Gaming as being of the view that it might become the duty of the State to restrict gambling.

Could we take a quick note of the intervention of the State at the moment in matters of private morality? Assault is a criminal offence, even if the two parties consent to it and enjoy it. Crimes of incest, this particular extra-marital activity, this particular private immorality are crimes—ought they not be? Sodomy between husband and wife is a crime. Suicide and attempted suicide still remain offences under our code, so far as I am aware. I am not arguing for the maintenance of all these pieces of legislation or features of the common law; I am merely instancing them in relation to this matter of the intervention in private spheres.

We will have to work on more Private Members Bills.

You do the work and I will sign it. As we all know, there is the law invalidating agreements to maintain your mistress or mistresses, as the case may be, for future services. She can be remunerated for past services all right. Leases of premises for immoral purposes are illegal. But, as the law is not concerned with private immorality, why is it so bothered with what is going on behind the windows and doors of the premises being leased for the immoral purposes? How do you justify that extravagant intrusion of the State into private morality when it will not allow a fellow go home and torture his dog? It appears to be outrageous. For the record I should like to state that I think the law for preventing cruelty to animals ought to be maintained—I am merely stating that the statement of the principle is a bit difficult.

It is still a crime to satisfy the mature and free choice of citizens for their own extinction by euthanasia. This does no harm to anyone else. It is only doing harm to himself. John Stuart Mill—certainly Schopenhauer —could probably persuade with a great deal of argumentation and in an entirely convincing manner that this was absolutely the right thing for him to do if that was the wholly hopeless position in which he found himself. If the Swiss philosopher, Max Picard, is correct in stating that the business of life—I feel like burying my head in the sand at this moment—is the making of your own face, could we say that the Minister for Justice would be wrong if he introduced a law limiting the amount of alcohol we could consume daily as a matter of an intervention in the private citizen's right? I do not think so. There are cases where there is justification for intervention and I would think that the absolute statement that the State must stay wholly out of the field of private morality is not acceptable.

It would be dishonest of me not to mention the whole question of the relationship of laws to society. Reading some of the books written on the subject I find superficial the rejection of the views of great historians, such as Lecky and Lord Bryce, who are firm in their views on the effect of laws on society. Failure even to mention them is an astonishing feature of some of these modern writers. such as Professor Hart. There is a strong opinion among many historians that laws do affect the behaviour of people, that they can communicate messages by their inhibitions quite apart from the enforcement of their sanctions.

The Catholic bishops should be thanked for drawing attention to the sociology of the matter. I have less confidence in this field than in any other. First, I should like to say that they did not seek to impose any burden of conscience on legislators. That was a good thing. If it had been excessive it would have had to be rejected anyhow but they did not even seek to impose it. In relation to sociology they have no special competency in this aspect at all. Secondly, according to what I think is the right view they argue also the ill consequences of legislation of this kind, that is to say, of liberalisation. After all, we have really moved into position where the legislation must be controlling rather than liberalising. But if we were talking about a liberalising legislation the burden of proof is on those who say that the consequences are going to be bad that they must prove it for us. If you look at the whole question there seems to be a common factor operating in relation to many of the trends. I do not see anything decisive in these trends. The very demand for contraception may itself be an element in the change which is taking place in society. You do not rightly excessively restrict freedom is what I am saying. To use Jefferson's words—and I think they are very striking—you cannot coerce "on the supposition of an ill tendency". You cannot say "Well, look, if you let him go off to the pictures, God knows who he will meet, better to keep him in." On the supposition of an ill tendency you cannot expect the mature citizen to behave right and well.

When you find that they reach their ethical conclusion in a particular direction, you are entitled to doubt the sociology which follows because if they are ethically right it does not matter what the sociological consequences would be that would follow. As I understand it, if something is wrong it is wrong even if the sky falls and, therefore, if you say something is wrong and you start proving that the sky will fall also, I think the second leg of your argument is at least suspect. The final criticism I would make is their failure to recognise the obligations of objective moral law so as to allow action to follow conscience, however ill-informed.

Then there is the right of privacy, any invasion of which requires justification and the right of married people to determine the size of their families, now a Constitutional right. We are in a difficult field and everyone must recognise the likely fate in the Courts of any legislation we propose to enact. Some people who are of the view, and I am not of that view, have said that this change which was originally proposed should not be made and we should get it all done by referendum. That is impossible. There is only one method by which you can by referendum prevent the enactment of this and that is by the people purporting to act contrary to fundamental justice by saying that these rights are to be taken from people. If these rights are real the people have not the right to take these rights from people. It is as simple as that in fundamental jurisprudence as I understand the situation and, in any case, it is all nonsense because it would be impossible to frame a suitable amendment of the restrictive provisions of the Article in the Constitution on this.

I have made no comment on any section of this Bill and dispute Senator Quinlan's proposition that I cannot table an amendment restricting it to married couples. I am aware of the difficulties of the restriction to married couples but nonetheless I would always make changes rather more slowly than at a fast rate and let us see where we go. I am coming towards the end which must be a great relief to everyone. There may be some sociological connection between artificial contraception and abortion. There may be a like sociological connection between natural contraception and abortion, that which was condemned for 2,000 or so years and became lawful in the last 40 or 50 years for Roman Catholics: maybe that, too, induces a contraceptive mentality. I do understand the argument on this by the way, it seems formal nonsense but it is not such nonsense being looked at closely. There is a line, however difficult it may be technically to draw, between contraception and abortion and it is quite absurd getting into an emotional state about this kind of thing. In another kind of case I would be quite prepared to discuss the issues which arise with regard to abortion. I just do not think them appropriate for discussion at this time here. For my part my position is quite clear. As I would favour this proposed change I would oppose the other. I would reserve my right, of course, on the Committee Stage of this Bill, if it goes to that, to propose amendments and I trust the sponsors do not mind that I have adopted that particular course.

With regard to the reference to the contraceptive mentality one wonders why no one has spoken of the evils to Christian living of the money mentality. The only time Christ wanted money it is worth noting he worked a miracle and produced the coin needed from the mouth of a fish. He would be as little connected with the stuff as that. The money mentality has its effect sociologically as well as the contraceptive mentality and it may be as relevant to this whole debate too. I am for a change of the kind I apprehend is coming, a change which will be a resolute solution and unafraid if it be different from that of other countries about its differences. I would not give a hoot about that. Stand over our own solution. But secure the constitutional right of married couples. I make no judgment at all on the essential morality involved in this. It would be quite wrong of me to express a judgment on it. I know there are difficulties of definition and administration but I believe they are not insuperable and should not daunt us.

A Leas-Chathaoirleach, if Senator Browne will allow me, speaking last here he talked about the progressive society and I think he should be aware there is the possibility of a sectarian kind of secularism too. There should be among us all more openness of mind to the views of others. He spoke of the desirability of therapeutic abortion and of amendment of the laws with regard to homosexuality. That is all very well. There is nobody, I imagine in this House with a greater sympathy for the problems of these homosexuals than I have but what do we do to the paederats? Do we give them the little boys for their criminal taste? How do you solve that problem? The line of progress is by no means clear: this is my point simply and a matter for a great deal of cool consideration, debate and discussion. If I have ended in a conservative way—but that should not surprise anybody who knows me well enough—I have been always astonished that, at a time when there has been so much proper criticism of capitalism in a consumer society, the critics of capitalism are so silent about what seems to me to be its worst feature—the exploitation and trivialisation of sex. Why does everybody steer away from that one? I would be very interested to get an explanation for that, and, if they did not steer away from it, some explanation for the general silence about it. In a note which I am going to use to precede my final song. D. H. Lawrence says:

Man has little needs and deeper needs. We have fallen into the mistake of living from our little needs till we have lost our deeper needs in a sort of madness.

I would not like my opposition to any law which made licentiousness easier to be interpreted as a lack of energy on my part. I think that there is value in the State maintaining what is the old Christian common law against fornication, in so far as it is prudent for it to do so. I hope I will be regarded kindly if I end by giving the warning to young people that fornication is an overrated pastime, as distinct, that is, from the deep permanent human relationship between man and woman. To cite folklore— folklore speaks of the Niagara Falls as the American bride's second disappointment. But that does not mean that they cannot work on the relationship and make some happiness for their lives. Lord Chesterfield said of fornication: "The pleasure is momentary, the position is ridiculous and the expense damnable." I do not invite this Assembly to elevate into crimes all the sexual sins of privacy, as American States have mistakenly done, but I think we should keep it as a crime to facilitate the performance of some of them.

In the context of the debate one must be permitted to describe Senator FitzGerald as a most seductive speaker. The remarks that he made will be, I hope, listened to by very many people. This is a question of rational discussion and he begged for tolerance from everybody involved in the discussion. I would certainly reecho that suggestion. As I listened to the Members of my own party, the Labour Party, discussing this matter I have had great sympathy with the obvious threat mentioned, the threat which quite obviously this question of contraception means for very many people.

I found Senator O'Higgins' contribution to be a very moving one. I sympathise with him very much in his suggestion that if he were to stay silent when he had this doubt—this moral doubt about the issues involved—he would consider himself a coward; and I also would consider him a coward if he had stayed silent. As most of you know, this is the kind of thing which I have been involved in for many years. One of the most depressing experiences in my political life has been the moral cowardice of working politicians over the years; and even though I disagree with what I consider to be the moral courage of Senator O'Higgins in taking up this very conservative and obscurantist stand on this issue, I suspect that he was articulating a point of view which was very common and which I suspect is still very common; but because there are fewer people speaking like this the cowards are deserting the position and people with courage like Senator O'Higgins are making these points, with which I am in total disagreement.

I think we all would agree that Senator Mary Robinson must be congratulated on the introduction of this Bill and the initiation, of this discussion. Obviously it is shaping up to be one of the most important we have had, probably deeply divisive, but seminal, in so far as I think there must flow from it far-reaching and conflicting attitudes on the political and social life of our country and also on the great problem of our country: the question of unity. It is too much to ask people with a tradition of acceptance of the very rigid authoritarian view of the Catholic Church, to accept this proposal without question. Senator FitzGerald is quite correct. It is positively revolutionary in its true implications. In itself I can make the medical case and the social case in human terms for the proposals implicit in the Bill. There are deep underlying and psychological implications for virtually all the Senators and Deputies who will be involved in this debate. It would be wrong to underestimate these implications. I have much sympathy for the Deputies as they try to find their way towards, as Senator FitzGerald said, our solution to this particular problem. As the Senator pointed out, also, the whole Church and State are fully involved in this affair.

We are taking a first tentative step, obviously with great trepidation, because the mechanics of the arrival at this Second Reading speech have been quite clearly very hesitant and very doubtful: the difficulty in getting the debate, the fact that now we have got the debate, the assurance that the Government propose to introduce their own Bill and also—I think this is something which Senator Halligan will have to deal with—if the vote on this Bill is going to be a free vote of the House, the implications of that must be examined. The free vote decision—the refusal to accept that this is Government policy and because it is Government policy it must be voted for by all the Deputies and Senators, certainly by the Deputies— means to me that there is within the Government a true realisation of the great demand they will make on their Members should they put the Whip on. They might not be able to carry a vote worthy to put the Whip on.

I got the impression listening to Senator Halligan after Senator O'Higgins' remarkable contribution this morning—which, I suspect will be damaging outside this House for various reasons which I will deal with later—that Senator Halligan was sent in here to try if possible to cool it. He tried to create the impression that this was a passing storm in a teacup and that a strong firm declaration from him would heal the breach. I do not think that is true. It goes much deeper than that: they are greatly misjudging the implications which Senator FitzGerald dealt with in such fascinating detail and which are within the minds and personalities of all of us.

I would cast my mind back to the fact that we in the Labour Party made a decision on this issue two or three years ago; Conference accepted it, I think, in 1972. I am not recriminating in any way; I am just stating facts. When I tried to move this Bill in the Dáil, after Senator Robinson was unsuccessful here, I could not get the support of my Party for the Bill and its provisions. Deputy John O'Connell was permitted to support me as an individual doctor. The Leader of the Labour Party and the party generally understood the emotional difficulties, if you could call them that, the problems which the Deputies might have had in supporting that Bill at that time.

We got some support for the right to introduce the Bill, but we could not get unanimous support in the Labour Party for the provisions of that Bill although Conference had decided on it. The Fine Gael Party are not the only party which have problems in this regard. I am quite sure the Fianna Fáil Party also have problems. I do not think we should try to sweep the matter under the carpet. It would not be swept. Somehow or other we have to try to take with us those Senators and Deputies who do not share our point of view. We must try to do this by a rational argument, the type of argument which we heard put so eloquently by Senator FitzGerald.

The rationality in simplistic terms could be emphasised by our dreadful preoccupation with and fear of sex matters. As I said once somewhere, the only two great sins in Ireland are sex and socialism. This irrationality about sex—perhaps I could digress to answer Senator FitzGerald's question to me about the paederast: we would not supply the little boys any more than we would supply the little girls to the other poor people who have problems in relation to paedophilia generally. The percentage is practically the same. Paederasty is about one per cent of the whole question of the problem of homosexuality, a very tiny percentage.

There is this difficulty which we have as a society about discussing sex or in dealing with the problems which arise in our society from the subject. This is linked, I think, to the preoccupation which the Catholic Church has had over the years with sex. As a force, a power, with potentially great evil as well as great good, quite obviously she had, as an important authority in the world, to interest herself in this matter. Therefore, we in Ireland—those of us who have been through the school process here— have ended up with very powerful inhibitions and stress problems related to this idea of sex. I believe that this will have to be taken with great care by the Dáil and Seanad.

I hope that the tolerance which I certainly feel for the people who have these difficulties will be shown to myself when I try to move on from this discussion of contraception and deal in passing with other aspects of restrictive laws and points in our Constitution related to sex problems, on the one hand, and also the relationship between these problems and the Church and the Church's position in Ireland.

There would be no problem at all if we could accept as a society that the Republic was ours, that that was the total State and that within that total State we would develop, as we have developed it, a benevolent and paternalistic, comfortable Protestant ghetto minority. Everybody would agree that our general attitude to them almost since the State was born has been completely impeccable. But impeccable though it may have been, it still created the aura of a religious apartheid—a group of people living within what Senator O'Higgins called the Catholic ethos and accepting, willy-nilly, whatever day-to-day rules, in private and public life, are laid down by the Catholic Church.

That point of view was accepted, as far as I can see, by the Protestant minority here. They appeared to have decided there was little they could do about it and adapted themselves as best they could. Fortunately, being reasonably wealthy people, they could get their divorces outside the country, if they wanted to; they could break the law and get whatever contraceptive devices they wanted. They could get education outside the country, if they wanted it. They were encouraged to build their own schools, but to accept this sense of social isolation within the community, segregated schools on religious grounds.

That seems to me a perfectly permissible concept for a society. Senators Quinlan and O'Higgins are perfectly within their rights to defend this kind of society, because there is nothing the minority can do about it except accept it. They are beholden to us for the preservation of their minority rights. If we do not choose to observe these rights, then there is nothing they can do about it. Where this is all changed of course is when we, through our Cabinet and Government over the years, reach out to this aspiration for unity and for a united Ireland. In that context we are faced with an utterly different, utterly changed position altogether. I myself do not believe that we have any right at all to deny any minority within our society. For this reason I have interested myself in homosexuality, in therapeutic legal abortion and in contraception. I do not want any of these things myself. But I believe that the Protestant minority in a society, where they are respected, is a measure of the civilisation, the attitudes and standards and that sort of thing.

The position is changed when we have these aspirations for unity. From this position of a ghetto life for a Protestant minority in our Catholic Republic, there can be no extrapolation of this kind of life into a united Ireland, into the North of Ireland; it just simply will not be tolerated. We must know that, and it would be madness for us to continue to attempt to extend it, unless we face up to the real implications of that decision. The British politicians do not care in the slightest for the rights of minorities. Once it suits their book they care as little for the rights of the Protestant minority now in the North as they did for the Catholic minority there, before it suited them to get out. That may be so, but the fact that they did not care for the rights of the Catholic minority did not stop the Catholic minority from continuing to fight in various ways for those rights, eventuating in what we have seen there since 1969. Does anybody think for one moment that, simply by going along to the third Protestant loyalist minority in the North, and waving Sunningdale, the Council of Ireland and prospects of unity at them, they will meekly accept their role as an additional northern component of the Protestant ghetto in a united Ireland, a significant Protestant minority in a united Ireland?

Neither Senators Quinlan nor O'Higgins is correct when he appears to exaggerate the size of the Catholic majority in Ireland. I think they are talking about the Republic, because of course the Catholic majority in a united Ireland would be a relatively small one. It would not be as big as they make it out to be; even if it were it still would not justify our imposing our will on them. One of the difficulties is how people can project their own anxiety or fear, their own feelings for freedom, for rights to express their points of view; for rights to private judgment—how they can project these into others. Senator O'Higgins was so proud of the marvellous Catholic tradition of seven centuries of fighting against what they called oppression of their religious beliefs and the defence of Catholics through the time of the Penal Laws, Cromwell, and so on. This is the history of which everybody is so proud— the fight against an attempt to impose a spiritual, moral, cultural attitude of thinking and behaviour which our forebears resented. How doggedly we fought over all those centuries. How is it that these same Senators cannot understand the decision of a Protestant Unionist, who has precisely the same difficulty—to put it at its lowest —of accepting something that is totally alien to his whole philosophy, all his thinking, his religious beliefs, his historical background and connection? Should they subordinate these things to the pressures of our culture and our cultural attitudes? This Bill and the debate on it will be a fascinating and historic contribution to the ongoing history of Ireland. It is either the first or the last for a very long time of a series of debates which simply must take place on these emotionally traumatising issues if we are to try to create this total community of Irish people living together in peace and harmony.

I must confess to a sense of exasperation for as long as I have been thinking about Irish public life— exasperation at this remarkable conflict in the political leaders over the years from 1922 on. How is it we continue to claim this aspiration for unity and at the same time introduce every decade at least one seriously provocative incident showing to the Northern Protestant Unionists that we are not the kind of country to which Senator Halligan referred today, that is independent of Rome Rule? Perhaps this is the kind of country we are going to be. I sincerely hope so; I hope Senator Halligan was correct when he made that statement today. We will not take our politics from Rome; we will not even take them from Dublin; politics will be decided here in the Dáil and the Seanad, and we will face up to the demands of a pluralist society. It is either that or accepting the Catholic State. How is it that a man who has given all his life to the problems of Ireland—I refer to Mr. de Valera—in the 1937 Constitution could correctly claim juridical rights under Articles 2 and 3 and, at the same time, introduce clearly sectarian conditions into the Consitution? There is Article 44, the divorce Article, and the laws on adoption, limitations in relation to adoption, the Ne Temere provisions in relation to the education of children, mixed marriages and, most important of all, our attitude to homosexuality. The Act goes back to 1865 during the reign of Queen Victoria. We have not dared even to talk about it. It is not mentioned in the Department of Justice Reports.

More important than all of these matters—including, with respect to Senator Robinson, contraception is our subservience to the Catholic Church in relation to Catholic social teaching and Catholic moral teaching. This does not appear to be so great now as it has been in the past. However, I submit, following my conversations with people living in the North of Ireland, that probably one of the most important impediments to unity is not divorce or contraception, our attitudes to censorship and homosexuality, but the fact that education is better in the North, that the health services are better there, that care for the aged is better there, these practical things——

I must intervene. The Senator is dismissing contraception as being irrelevant, whereas the Bill is in fact concerned with it.

I beg your pardon, I should have stated relatively irrelevant, of relative relevance.

The Senator, while entitled to place the question we are discussing in a general background, should endeavour to make the major part of his contribution relate to the subject matter of the Bill.

I certainly will do that. Senator Halligan stated we are not locked in a great moral debate. I submit that we are locked in a great moral debate. Anybody who listens to Senator M.J. O'Higgins's very detailed defence of his position on grounds of his adherence to the Catholic attitude in matters of this kind refuses to face the fact that there is a very serious moral debate and that this is simply the first part of that debate. There are various statements which he made: that we have not received a mandate to legislate on principles which would be offensive to the Catholic majority. He said earlier that the quality of life in the State will be shaped, formed and moulded by the Catholic ethos.

Senator Quinlan referred to the things we are not going to barter for a united Ireland. Contraception is one. I am sure divorce is another. Secular schools would be another. If this is so and if Senators Quinlan and M.J. O'Higgins consider that there is a very serious moral issue involved in this, what is the position with regard to it? Will the Government respect the problems of a Senator expressing this point of view? Is recognition of this fact not implicit in Senator Halligan's to me contradictory statements? He sees this as a civil right, and then he supports a Government which will not put on the Whip to establish a civil right. The Government have no unified policy about this civil right. Of course, he is correct. This is a civil right. But why have the Government taken so long to establish this civil right?

This Government are composed of Deputies who in Opposition professed to support a Bill which was, in advance of this Bill, more wide-ranking than this Bill. What has happened in between? Why have they got cold feet about it? Were they simply playing politics, making difficulties for Fianna Fáil? Or have they troubles within their own parties arising out of the serious moral problem which Senator M.J. O'Higgins articulated so clearly this morning, and Senator Quinlan so fervently this afternoon? One of the odd things about our society has been this certainty of our own sanctity. It is very difficult to establish that anybody ever commits suicide in the Republic, that anybody requires a divorce, that there is such a thing as homosexuality—there is something in the region of 200,000 in the country —or that anybody might need the therapy of legal abortion when in fact the rate of Irish girls having abortions in England is the highest rate of any outside girls having abortions in England. This refusal to face the suggestion that these ugly human conditions—although I do not consider them ugly: I think they are unfortunate, but many people appear to think they are ugly human conditions —do not affect us Irish.

In passing I should just like to talk about therapeutic legal abortion. May I say this, a Chathaoirleach? I would not like my views to be foisted on the movers of the Bill, Senator Robinson and her two supporters, I am not putting my name to this Bill and therefore I hope their case will not be misrepresented by anything that I might say. On the question of therapeutic legal abortion and its association with contraception, it is well established that contraception leads to a reduction in the incidence of therapeutic legal abortion. If we had contraception in Ireland, a lot of the Irish girls would not be going to England to get abortions. That is their misfortune. I consider therapeutic legal abortion to be a very distressing thing for the unfortunate girl herself, but there are circumstances in which I consider it should be permissible. Again, we have the rigidity of the Irish Catholic attitude on these matters when there are different Catholic attitudes on this matter. Catholic Austria will have an Abortion Act next year. Remember, therapeutic legal abortion is therapeutic, because it is going to help the lady from the point of view of her health and legal because it has been passed by a responsible democratic society. However, I will not dwell on that point beyond saying that like contraception, which a relatively short time ago was an anathema as a subject for discussion, I think eventually abortion will be discussed in as rational a way as contraception is being discussed in here anyway, whatever about outside.

It is very difficult to go along with Senator Halligan's suggestion that we are not locked in a great moral debate if one reads the papers, listens to the television discussions, radio discussions, newspaper articles, letters. Quite obviously a number of people consider it to be a great moral debate.

I am somewhat worried by the concession which Senator O'Higgins and Senator Quinlan make when they take up the position that because of the absence of contraceptives in Ireland we are a society which is protected from permissiveness and pornography and all the other dreadful consequences which they talked about. I am genuinely worried about this because it seems to me to accept on their part a very flimsy structure of self-control in the young people and the married people. Is there this flimsy self-control, lack of control, absence of control, which would fragment as soon as Senator Robinson's Bill is passed? Is that true? I consider that to be very worrying and very frightening. I am not being cynical or facetious because there is no doubt that in certain circumstances sudden access to sex, unlimited sex opportunities available because of contraception, where people are not prepared for and not protected against the sex drives of every human being, could have objectionable consequences. If, as I say, the structure of control is so flimsy, why would Senator O'Higgins and Senator Quinlan not ask why is this so and must it be so?

Our education is cared for predominantly by the religious orders. Is there a defect in that education which turns out youngsters who do lack, who they say will lack, self-control in this type of society with access to contraception? Is it, and I think they are probably correct to an extent, not so, if it is so, due to the nearly universal taboos about sex in Ireland, stemming, I think, from the monosexual educational system, in the first instance, and the predominantly religious control of that education? I speak as somebody who passed through this system. While many great things have been done by the religious educationalists, I think we have to assume that the monosexual educational milieu is not a good one. It is not conducive to normal sexual maturity. I heard a lady psychologist the other day saying that we should prepare for marriage at the age of four. That is co-education. There should not be this segregation of the sexes. As to sex education and the inhibitions about sex, we have to admit that because of the falling off in vocations which is evidenced everywhere now in the world there must have been a number of people going into the religious orders, many of them going in for the highest motives, but some of them going in for the wrong motive altogether, going in because of their own difficulties in relation to sex matters and that these were transmitted to their pupils. However, whatever the reasons, it is quite obvious that very radical changes will have to take place in our attitudes, the attitudes of the lay and religious, to this exposure to sex so that it will be controlled, it will be mature and it will be an understanding of the sex act as simply the climatic act in a wonderful, pure loving relationship. Unfortunately, that is not generally believed or accepted.

I do share the Senators' fears if they are right in what they have said. I share their fears in the circumstances of the changes proposed here. Over the years in this on-going debate of 30 years or so about the position of the Church and State, nearly every decade, whether it was the 1937 Constitution, which to me was a very provocative sectarian Constitution—provocative to the Northern Protestant— or the censorship of publications, the contraception, the divorce, Ne Temere, the mother and child scheme, of course, the social code tolerated for Irish legislators in the Republic which forbade some things which are now accepted as commonplace, stretching from old age pensions, children's allowances, free primary school education, forbade them by Catholic social teaching, right through the pathetic British welfare society but an advance obviously in its time, through to serious distributive justice implicit in revolutionary socialism, all forbidden by the Catholic Church at various times.

In recent years there has been a tendency to under-play all this, the general line of the Garret FitzGeralds and the Conor Cruise-O'Briens and the various other apologists for our society in their genuine attempts to try to establish a rapprochment between the North and South—this could not happen again, this influence has gone. As the man said to me in the debate in Boston—there is a completely new ball game now. For a time that appeared to be true. Make no mistake, there has been welcome changes within the Catholic Church in the Republic. It is not the frightening monolith it was. There are some very fine individual parish priests and young priests, even in Maynooth amongst the theologians, professors and teachers generally, and there is the odd one within the hierachy itself.

Our political leaders do themselves an injustice if they think that simply by wishing that the probable influence of the Catholic Church in our internal affairs no longer exists. They must have suffered a re-education while listening today to Senator O'Higgins and Senator Quinlan. I do not think that these are not exceptional people. There is a very powerful sub-stratum of working politicians and laymen within our society who share the views of the need for the continuation of a sectarian State in the South with total domination by the Catholic Church. Whichever of us is wrong—it is a matter of opinion— everything is changing. It is no longer true to say that she no longer rules here. Deputy Cruise-O'Brien, the Minister for Posts and Telegraphs, put his single test case in relation to this contraception issue when he said we all have to stand up and be counted on the issue, and vote for it. It will be very interesting at the end of the day to see how many do stand up, and whether this Bill will be passed.

I still believe that the absence of a free vote is a device used by the Government to conceal their own inability to deliver the goods to the Northern Protestant Unionist in the context of the Sunningdale Agreement. I was very surprised to see the positive hilarity with which my reference to Sunningdale was greeted when I spoke last week. One must discuss this in the context of these discussions and negotiations. If they cannot deliver the goods on this particular issue—and later on the others to which I referred—it seems to me to be completely unreasonable for them to expect, as Mr. de Valera did in 1937 when he claimed jurisdication over the total island and then proceeded to introduce a Constitution widely seeded with sectarian provisions in laws under that constitution, the Northerners not to notice.

I have the greatest sympathy for the fears expressed by the Protestant minority of one-third which is at the moment resisting the Sunningdale Agreement and, in particular, the Council of Ireland. They are resisting the Council of Ireland because of the implicit threat of a united Ireland in something like Senators O'Higgins's or Quinlan's Catholic sectarian State. Quite obviously that is implicit in the Council of Ireland. If we can only get them into the Council of Ireland, they can never go back. They know that. I suggest that the very fact that the Government are not able to put on the Whip on this issue is of the highest significance. Senator Robinson may feel aggrieved that she has debated this issue for four years. The truth of the matter is that this issue has been debated since 1947. There was a clause in the 1947 Act—Mr. MacEntee's Act —asking that we should have the right to educate mothers in respect of motherhood. That was nearly 30 years ago.

We have taken about 25 to 30 years to get this Bill into the House and we have not got it through yet. There are more controversial, moral issues such as divorce, Ne Temere, co-education secular schools, adoption, and the rights of children in a mixed marriage. These issues must be decided. Senator Halligan says we are not engaged in a great moral debate. I think he will find that we are. I would give way to anybody who could contradict me. I know of no significant southern political leader, since the State was formed, who has not been prepared to subordinate his aspirations for a united Ireland to his loyalty to the Catholic Church. I do not know of any single occasion on which this happened, and I believe that to be true.

At the same time, this does not stop us going north of the Border and lecturing the Protestant Unionists— bigots if you like; there are Catholic bigots in the South, and Protestant bigots in the North—on the inequity of treating the Catholic minority.

The Senator is very wide of the Bill and has been for some time. The Chair gave time in case he was developing a point which would be related afterwards to the Bill. In fact, he is going very wide of the Bill which is in front of us.

I am sorry if I was doing that. I am certain of support for my point from Senator Halligan's reference to what Mr. Gerry Fitt told him regarding the need for us to make these changes.

I am sure the Senator appreciates the difference between a passing reference which is not dwelt on and a lengthy discussion without mention of the subject matter of the Bill. The Senator has mentioned three times the Ne Temere Decree which is not the matter concerned with in this Bill or in any other statute.

Quite obviously, the discussions which are going on are concerned with issues of this kind; the quid pro quo; if you deliver this, we will deliver that. Listening to this debate, and noting the inability of the Government to decide what will be their policy, whether the Contraception Bill—or whatever it may be— will be Government policy, all shows that either they are not able, or that they are not prepared, to meet the sacrifices which they demand from the Northern Protestants in the discussions.

One thing which appears to be agreed by everybody is the need for family planning and contraception. Senator Robinson, in her introductory speech, dealt with it so completely that there is little need for me to enlarge on it beyond expressing my own belief that no child should be born unless it is a wanted child. I was astonished to hear Senator Quinlan talking about people who discussed whether they would have another baby, on the basis that it was either a new car or another baby.

This extraordinary unsophisticated concept of the right to give life, the function of an individual giving life, I find completely horrifying. I am exaggerating now when I say this but I do so in order to illustrate my point. Knowing of the great suffering which seems to afflict so many people in the world—in my profession I see a lot of it—there is greater responsibility to an individual who gives life to a child than the person who takes life. It may be said that I am exaggerating a bit but to give life to anybody seems to be an extraordinarily presumptuous —and impertinent thing.

Certainly it is something which should not be done without the deepest consideration. The unwanted child is an unhappy child. The suffering of the unwanted child is seen in our courts, in our institutions, in the streets and in our prisons. It is very difficult, knowing how complicated it is—the formation of the individual, the personality, the factors which enter into the formation of the mature individual, and the disastrous emotional consequences which follow the haphazard, or unskilled upbringing of a child—and the more one sees it the more frightening the whole thing becomes.

Certainly, the mother who is to give the time needed to a child so that the child gets the best possible opportunity of coming to maturity unhurt by its infant child experiences, cannot afford to have a large family. The general persuasion of modern industry which I deplore to see, the working mother —I am not talking of the working or career woman—means in British society, that it has the effect on two or three children, a small family and in our society it means that the bad effects of that are felt by a much larger number of children because there are larger families.

I am sure Senator Robinson will reply to the various cases made by Senator Quinlan about the natural law and so on. I am sure she will remind him that the natural law was just as forbidden quite recently as contraception is forbidden now. This is an interesting factor. St. Augustine and St. Thomas Aquinas gave the leadership for centuries which forbade sex except for purposes of procreation. As far as I can gather, the Papal Commission did not forbid contraception on grounds of either the natural law, nor did they claim infallibility, but simply because they were worried about the effects it would have on authority.

Most of Senator Quinlan's contribution was inaccurate, and he should have known better. One of the difficulties the unfortunate Catholic Church has in Ireland is the number of uninformed defenders it has from time to time. For all the Senators and Deputies, there is the important development that all the talk that this could not happen again, that the Church has changed, and that we are very much more independent now than we were seemed to end last November. This was referred to by Senators Halligan and FitzGerald and, of course, Senator Quinlan, in proving the case for the need to permit Senator Robinson to get a Second Reading of her Bill. This is the contribution by the Catholic Hierarchy, saying that contraception is immoral and contrary to moral law.

It does not create difficulty for me but it must create serious difficulties for people like Senators Quinlan and O'Higgins. My understanding of Catholic social teaching, which was used in the case of the Health Scheme in 1951, is that it is not binding on a Catholic under pain of mortal sin. This is an important distinction—you are not bound by Catholic social teaching, it varies from one country to another. But a Catholic is bound under pain of mortal sin to accept Catholic moral teaching. Therefore, I was very surprised when this statement was issued in November because it is pretty dogmatic, even though it does provide escape hatches—Senator Halligan said a nod is as good as a wink, although he put it more elegantly than that. It appears to leave no alternative to the Catholic legislator in the Seanad or the Dáil but to vote for an immoral law. I have had rather a traumatic experience in connection with Catholic teaching on these matters and know a bit about it. We may get somebody who will be able to tell us whether it is possible for a Catholic legislator to introduce an immoral law and not commit a mortal sin.

Catholic social teaching, which you can take or leave, led to the downfall of the Government so one can see how things have changed. If they were faced with Catholic moral teaching I do not know what they would have done. This is a very powerful veto on this Bill and is meant to be so. It will be very interesting indeed, to see what the Catholic legislators here and in the Dáil do about it. I will be fascinated watching it and I will not be alone in this as north of the Border they will be watching also. It seems to me to have been irresponsible to have taken this dogmatic view about contraception because so far as I understand the peculiarly equivocal statements from Rome on the subject, it is a matter of private conscience. Through Senator Robinson's Bill we have entered into the first days of a very fascinating time in the life history of our people, and our legislators in particular. Will this Government have the courage to grasp that nettle which Senator FitzGerald recommended them to do, and which the ex-Taoiseach, Deputy Lynch, failed to do? Was he afraid to do it? Are these people afraid to do it. The ensuing weeks and months will tell. I repeat that this is a very serious debate indeed; I must repeat what I said that the issue of contraception is only of relative importance.

Most of the important points concerning this Bill were covered rather extensively by Senator Robinson in opening the debate. There were, however, many statements made during the course of the debate which it would be totally irresponsible not to refute. When I first read John Whyte's book Church and State in Modern Ireland I thought a most interesting passage in it was when he wanted to make up his mind as to whether the church in Ireland had the same influence of any other interest group or whether we were a theocratic State. In the last chapter the author confesses his inability to decide on which of these two models it most appropriately stood.

Senator M.J. O'Higgins in his long speech solved that problem for himself at least. He described the details of a theocracy. He made many interesting statements on the role of the nation. The nation is derived from and must be put under the protection of God. He used the phrase "common good". Common good has a portion which is referred to as the moral common good. There was the extraordinary phrase that primarily we have to take cognisance of the fact that this is an over 90 per cent Catholic State and we must never forget it. What has been suggested here is that the primary influence on our decisions and on anything we might have to say is not generated by the question "Is this good law or not?" The question to be decided is "How can I reconcile what might be good law with the demands of my being a Catholic in a predominantly Roman Catholic State?" If you accept the consequences of that kind of reasoning you have an inescapable duty when asked the question "Is Ireland a theocracy or not?", you must say "It certainly is".

Some strange points have been made. The role of the State has been called into question. The end of the State is to advance the common good and the common good is related to the moral good. This was followed by an extraordinary statement "All authority comes from God" and its use and presence in the 1937 Constitution was quoted. The development of the theme of the common moral good by Senator M.J. O'Higgins has a very interesting historical implication. It is now on the record of Seanad Éireann that a Senator has stated and I quote: "This is a Catholic State, we must not forget that". Then in trying to draw a distinction between the direct effects of the proposed legislation and its indirect effects, he suggests that its indirect effects may be that private morality itself is affected. There was the extraordinary phrase used by both Senator O'Higgins and Senator Quinlan that they reflected the plain people of Ireland, that they reflected the view of many people in this country. I do not doubt they reflect the view of some people, but what neither of them offered us was any description or evidence as to how they consulted the plain people of Ireland.

It was rather like the suggestion that Mr. de Valera looked into his heart and then made his statements as they came along. But undoubtedly Senators M.J. O'Higgins and Quinlan have looked into their hearts and the message came back: "You are the voice of the plain people of Ireland". This time it was a strange message because, later on, Senator Quinlan could say he represented over 80 per cent of opinion in this country.

To my mind the debate began well with a very explicit and clear development of the necessity of law by Senator Robinson. After that, in the speeches that followed—particularly those of Senators M.J. O'Higgins and Quinlan—both of them began, very interestingly enough by making the plea that we would discuss the matter unemotionally. Yet both of them relied totally on emotion and neither of them would give a source when challenged on any statement they made. Therefore, what they have, in fact, done is this: they have suggested we must not be emotional about all of this and then gone ahead and tried to whip up a frenzy in the country. Looking through the record about things like this you will find that the country has, at different times, been put into the position, more or less, of a kind of doomsday condition. The language was intriguing: the floodgates are being opened; when and where will it stop? This kind of language. This is what bothered them. It is very interesting, this phrase to which they continually returned and reiterated in their speeches—"the quality of life"; neither of them, of course, defining what they meant by it. What they clearly meant by it, as they developed their speeches, was that, in fact, they meant their own particular prejudiced vision of society and how it should be inflicted on the public in general. Again I wanted to tell you that regularly in this country—since the State was founded—the State goes through these certain kinds of scare tactics which the two gentlemen developed.

If I might invoke here the last time Senator Quinlan used the phrase "the quality of life". Speaking on the 27th July, 1962, on the Intoxicating Liquor Bill, at column 971, Volume 55 of the Official Report, he suggested that the law had to be amended so that liqueur chocolates could be sold in confectionery shops. This was the distinguished contribution on the quality of life, a Chathaoirleach, of the good Senator:

As if this were not enough, we have here now a provision for liqueur chocolates. Now we are really going to become modernised; we are to have liqueur chocolates on full and open sale. There is, of course, a provision that it will be an offence to sell these chocolates to anybody under 16 years of age. But that does not prevent the purchaser giving them to children, or to anybody to whom he wishes to give them.

Then he says:

As far as I can reckon the maximum figures given in the Bill, a manufacturer of chocolates can comply with the terms of the Bill and still succeed in getting one glass of liqueur into every ten chocolates.

Later on he suggested:

This could be very serious in our dance halls where it might become quite fashionable to pass the chocolates round——

A Senator

We will give you one with a hard centre.

——the chocolate with the "lift" in them. It could become almost a serious as the "reefer" trade in other countries, where "reefers" are taken for a "lift" or a "gee-up".

I almost missed the Senator's quotation.

(Interruptions.)

Acting Chairman

For the record, would the Senator repeat the reference please?

It gives me great pleasure. Volume 55, column 971, of the bound volumes of debates in Seanad Éireann.

The Senator would get a much better quotation——

Yes, I have read those too. I must say, a Cathaoirleach, that at least Senator Quinlan is being consistent after 12 years.

There was an interesting difference in the two kinds of argument put forward here this evening and that is this. The people who were speaking against this proposal—the Family Planning Bill—rarely produced sources. Here they are in striking contrast to the people who are supporting the Bill. I support the Bill; I think it is a necessary human piece of legislation. I also oppose any strict limitations of the Bill in so far as it would be very difficult to see precise limitations that could be regarded as good law. More than that: I want to return to this point of the arguments used. There has been a very serious atmosphere of irresponsibility in the way the subject has been discussed in public. People make statements and never declare their sources. People suggest, for example, that there is a connection between contraceptive devices being available and abortion. We are indebted to two groups—the Irish Family Planning Association, who replied to an anonymous document published by a group, or ghost or spirits calling themselves the Irish Family League. The 12 people who replied to the Irish Family League gave their names and qualifications on the final page of their document. Again and again, what do they do? In every single instance they quote their sources. It is footnoted; for example, when they were quoting from an article by De Waller, Shorter and Clodell on the "Decline of Non-Marital Fertility in Europe, 1880 to 1940", they gave the source, "Population Studies, November, 1971". Again on the incidence of illegal abortion they quote Goodhart and they give reference again "Population Studies, July, 1973". Again in studying the issue concerning the incidence of venereal disease—the suggested increase in it—they gave us an example, they quoted the source, The Journal of Biosocial Science, July, 1972. This is the kind of responsible debate we should be having. When people make statements, particularly when they have the facilities, they should try, as much as possible, to make the debate reasonable.

The statement of the Hierarchy has been quoted. Bishops drew attention to the position in other countries where contraception had been legalised and said there was a good deal of evidence to show that in these countries marital infidelity increased; the number of illigitimate births increased as did the number of abortions and the incidence of venereal disease. I challenge any member of the Hierarchy, or any member of the House, to show me where that can be proved. In fact, the most useful contribution following that generalisation—for which no source was given and which several different social indicators were linked together without establishing any cause or relationship between them—went uncontested. We were deeply indebted to Dr. David Nowlan, the medical correspondent of The Irish Times who, carefully and responsibly, took up this generalisation in the Hierarchy's statement and made an attempt to look at the research evidence, as it was available, for the different aspects of the assertion. In the three articles he contributed on Wednesday, Thursday, and Friday, December 12th 13th, 14th, 1973, he made every effort always to indicate his sources. He gave the source of his first article. He said:

Obviously, it would be impossible to provide here evidence from every country in the world. The limits that have been drawn in respect of illigitimacy and divorce are those of the present European Economic Community member-states, and the statistics provided have been taken from the United Nations Demographic year books from the time of their inception to the latest available volume.

I can say from my own reading of the journals on social sciences and social medicine and the journal of venereal disease that you will find nowhere a clear-cut assertion establishing connections between contraception, increased permissiveness and abortion. It was a deliberate attempt to misrepresent the argument suggested and which derived from Senator Robinson's Bill related to family planning. These types of wild hares are raised and these kinds of wild statements are made by many people who should know better and who do in fact, I suspect, know these facts as I point them out.

Again, in the first article Dr. Nowlan spoke on the connection between divorce and contraception. I will quote an interesting paragraph from his article in The Irish Times of Wednesday, December 12th. In the last column he says:

But what if one were to speculate on the massive increase in the figure between the 1936 census and the census in 1946?

Here he is speaking of the connection between divorce and contraception.

What percentage of this massive increase in marital separations in the English statistics resulted from the passing in 1935 of the Criminal Law Amendment Act which prohibited the importation of contraceptives? Such speculation is a good example of how statistics can be abused, particularly the statistics of social parametres where only one factor is considered as a possible cause for some demonstrable effect.

At the risk of boring the House, I should like to point out that the effect of these articles, the weight of one piece of evidence after another, when the statistics are worked out and derived from sources stated, respectable sources, is that you will find more and more that the attempt to collapse all the social practices together is not only meaningless but dangerous, misleading and dishonest.

In his second article on Thursday, December 13th, Dr. Nowlan had this to say:

In a sense, Bishop Cahal Daly gives us the entreé to this part of the discussion, for it is he——

This is the connection between contraception and venereal disease.

——who, on a radio programme after the Hierarchy's statement, quoted from the distinguished British venerologist, Dr. R. S. Morton. Indeed, insofar as his interview was reported in the press, he misquoted Dr. Morton. Reportedly he said that it was Dr. Morton's opinion that the use of contraception by teenagers, insofar as it had contributed to the spread of venereal disease, was a more dangerous pollutant than pesticides and that it had done more damage than thalidomide.

What Dr. Norton actually said in his book (Sexual Freedom and Venereal Disease published by Peter Owen) was that the use of the pill by young unmarried girls was contributing towards the spread of venereal disease in Britain. He did not include other contraceptives in his somewhat intemperate condemnation. In fact, elsewhere in the same book he actually advocates the use of condoms in an effort to control VD when he writes: "There is no doubt that if all promiscuous men used condoms at all times, and their partners insisted on this precaution, the incidence of (venereal) infection would be markedly reduced.

Here we have in the Hierarchy's statement an inaccurate use of the one source stated and, since that announcement by the Hierarchy, we have had no further statement from them suggesting where we might look for the evidence that might inform our judgment on the Family Planning Bill, 1973. Remember what they invited us to do. They told us we should be very careful to weigh the matter heavily in our minds. We should, in fact, do lots of things.

May I draw the attention of this Chamber to one limitation at least? If we wanted to get it, we could not get much of the literature, in fact, because it is illegal under the restrictions on the import of material dealing with contraception. I suspect this is what they are inviting us to do. We should invent our data and invent our statistics. I want to acknowledge publicly the good and useful and wonderful work done by the Irish Family Planning Association, particularly in Dr. Nowlan's three very useful articles in The Irish Times.

In concluding his study he made a rather interesting point too. He said:

I hope that these three articles have provided some of the evidence and some of the information which the Hierarchy advised the Deputies and Senators to study before they embarked on a consideration of Senator Mary Robinson's Family Planning Bill. There are many other more extensive and more authoritative works available which they can consult for further information on the subject (although it is a cause for ironic regret that some of the best works in this area are presently banned in this country because of that very piece of legislation in the Censorship of Publications Act which Senator Robinson seeks to amend.)

That is from The Irish Times Friday, December 14th. Then in a later passage he said:

They should give consideration to the social consequences of having a law on the books which is broken with increasing frequency each day: Some 38,000 women are taking the contraceptive pill each month— presumably for contraceptive purposes...

——though it might be for a lift or a gee-up.

That is a lot of people to be involved in regular crime. They might give some thought to the evidence which suggests that children from the largest families—and this is news to some people here—tend to achieve less and to be less privileged than children from smaller families. They are the findings concerning the wildly exaggerated and totally unsupported statements that there is something wonderful about the large family. I am not going to make a decision on whether one should have a small or a large family. One thing I do know is that when you look at the research on the subject you find, in fact, that the people with the largest families are the people least represented in participation in education.

If you go to the trouble to go into any social science department in this country you will find that there are two theses in Trinity College, one thesis in University College, Dublin and one in University College, Galway. The findings are similar in all cases. It is, in fact, that the poor with large families, the people who get married very young, are least represented in the educational participation in the life of the nation. To say there is something beautiful about it is a very fine statement to make, but if you want to speak about the consequences of having a large family, while not participating to a great extent in the economic rewards of the community, you will see that the result of that particular combination is that you have low participation and high absenteeism from school and all of these factors are the result of the so-called large families particularly in poverty stricken areas.

Senator Brendan Halligan made one very useful point at the outset when he said that family planning is a civil right. This is a matter to which I now want to turn. People have suggested that we should survey attitudes. In fact, I understand that a gentleman in Strathclyde began running his computer cards through the computer to decide what percentage were in favour of certain questions and would answer either in the negative or positive. To my mind, if you suggest that legislation becomes a matter of attitude survey you have ushered in a society of 1984. If only one person were being deprived of his rights in this country, it is our duty as legislators to ensure that that one individual is not deprived of a civil right. That is simply the matter and let there be no confusion about it.

I am supporting this Bill and I am supporting its principles. It is its principles we are discussing on Second Stage. I am doing so from the perspective that we are, in fact, in a changing situation in which a number of people have been systematically deprived of a civil right. We know the shocking social consequences—particularly those of us who are professionally studying such consequences— of the deprivation of that civil right. I would hope, too, that when Seanad Éireann have returned to this civil right, and when they have created a situation where this civil right can be exercised, that they will turn to an examination of the other civil rights which citizens are deprived of in this country. I would hope when that occasion comes that we would have less fuss and fewer emotive remarks and that we would have people engaging in a rational dispute quoting their sources, and addressing themselves to the question: is this good legistlation or is it not?

Professor Quinlan said the effects of the Supreme Court have opened the floodgates. Up to now we had the chocolates being passed around at dances. We will probably now have devices being passed around at dances and people behaving in an unspeakable manner. That kind of comment is just simply ridiculous. I challenge any Senator here to show me a survey or quote me a case in any country where the introduction of contraceptive devices has had the effects that were suggested—opening the floodgates. Senator Quinlan also referred to so-called humanists and liberals and said that it was democracy itself that was at stake. Indeed, he said we are dealing with things we will not barter.

I was reminded only last week that I was never elected here. I have not claimed to consult the plain people of Ireland and I have not claimed to represent anyone other than my own and the party's opinions on this matter. In the Labour Party we passed a motion in 1972 which embodied most of the principles in Senator Mary Robinson's Bill. I suggest that such phrases as "opening floodgates" should be corrected by people in Seanad Éireann. I ask where are the sources which would prove the case to be as they say it to be.

I see this Bill as important too, in another context. At present there is confrontation in regard to the shortage of resources in the world generally. It is reflected in all sorts of things, from sources of energy to food. This at a time also when the rate of increase in the demographic year book —the rate of population increase— has gone up. We will be, whether we like it or not at world level facing a situation of shrinking resources for an increasing population. At the national level we will have to deal with this matter, too. We will have to have some kind of population policy. We will have to decide, for example, what degree of organisation we need and what to tolerate. We will have to make a social assertion as to the kind of conditions in which families will live and in which children will be born and reared in such a manner and with such basic necessities as to enable them to play a full part in the life of the nation. This will not happen if we have the present situation where in the absence of a population policy we are simply saying to people "Please get married and have lots of children, but we cannot guarantee you a house".

Here I want to refer to something I mentioned last week. What this present Government inherited was that the age at marriage has fallen in this country. Those who have read the paper by Dr. Brendan Walsh of the Economic and Social Research Institute see that the age of marriage has decreased. In addition, there has been no appreciable increase in the stock of low-cost housing. Here I am speaking about flats and in particular cheaper houses. If you take these two factors together, you will find that a rejection of this Bill or the carrying of this amendment will mean that the group of people who will be most affected will be the people who get married young and who are forced into miserable accommodation conditions. They need the measures of this Bill. It is hypocrisy to suggest that they do not exist or to say something like, as was said earlier here, "hard cases make bad law". I suggest then that first of all we should be prepared to take cognisance of developments at world level in demographic trends. If we are to take cognisance of the demographic trends within our own country we need the Bill, because it is an important Bill.

There are one or two other points I want to make. People have spoken about putting into the Bill the provision that contraceptives would be available to married couples. I should like to draw the attention of the House to the situation which could result by amending the Bill in that manner. We could find ourselves in the ridiculous situation of a woman producing her marriage certificate at a chemist shop. This, to my mind, would be degradation of the worst kind. Similarly, too, I would warn Members of the Seanad of the danger of introducing an insensitive age clause. Here again there are difficulties in relation to putting the legislation into practice. In turn, the legislation, as Senator Robinson has pointed out, either helps develop a respect for the law or erodes this respect for the law.

I think what we need is a practical Bill. Any kind of amendments which are made to tighten its impact should be amendments which can be implemented without degrading the people involved and in such a manner as to have the law itself make sense. It has been said that the Bill equates contraception with family planning. I do not see any problem with regard to that. As far as I am concerned, I would say that this simply does not matter.

I want to refer to one other matter, so that I will be dead accurate about the assertion I made earlier. In the case of Senator M.J. O'Higgins he quoted seven sources. They were interesting. The Irish Times of 13th of April, 1971; Irish Independent of 24th May, 1971 —in which he talked about an article entitled “Pornography Tidal Wave— Bishop”; in The Evening Herald of 5th December, 1973 somebody, we know not whom, has suggested that sex devices put youth at risk. The fourth source quoted that magnificent professional source dealing with the social issue—The Belfast News Letter. The Belfast News Letter of Tuesday, 5th February, 1974, had this headline “Permissiveness is new threat to Northern Ireland”. The source was given here. I must apologise for saying that in no case did either of the two gentlemen who spoke for the amendment give sources. They did, once. Senator M.J. O'Higgins did. He suggested he was speaking about reports that had been circulated by the Armagh Diocesan Assembly of Social Responsibility—a very fine scientific body.

On The Sunday Independent of 6th January, 1974, we were told that drug firms were ready to move in. Obviously this was when the floodgates were up. On The Sunday Independent of the 3rd February it was stated that the mail order companies were going to fly in and had already hired squads of women who were recruited to distribute contraceptives. In relation to this we had the extraordinary statement, quoting from today's speech by the Leader of the House. Who said that the amendment which was circulated and which Members of Seanad Éireann have read was a reflection of a widespread view. Has there been a national poll on this? Upon what is that statement based? Is it based on any research report? Is it based on a poll? What is it based on? Or was it one of those necessary phrases that should be tagged along and is as useful as all the other clichés that have been used in unsubstantiated research? We were told that if we pass the Bill we would be praised by the mass media, drug companies, and the knockers of the Catholic Church and the Hierarchy.

I suggest to this House that when the Members come to evaluate the quality of the debate and when they come to think about this—what has happened in this House on the debate —they will find again and again the people who have favoured the Bill developing their sources, always explaining in a careful or non-emotive manner where their information is drawn from. On the other side, in relation to this point you will find the people who are proposing the amendment taking refuge in emotive remarks, suggesting for example that with these assertions they are speaking not only on behalf of the plain people of Ireland, but the plain people of Ireland for more than 700 years. That is rubbish. I have commented on the qualifications which Senator Halligan suggested might be necessary and which he would like to seek.

I am deliberately overlooking the Billings method as I am not competent to talk on that sophisticated device. There have been final basic assertions made which will summarise what I have just been saying. The people who moved the amendment have the same approach as those impertinent people who send letters saying "You have no mandate to vote for me". I got one from Blackrock and I have never stood for election in Blackrock. I do not know the woman who wrote to me and I certainly do not want to meet her. She should desist from sending me daft letters. In fact, Members of this House have been inundated with letters from all sorts of frustrated and lunatic writers from all sorts of addresses, suggesting that we had no mandate from them to vote for a particular measure. That is the kind of impertinence which at its higher level is reflected in the Hierarchy's statement and at its lowest level in these writers who write out a model letter provided in a dubious newspaper.

There are five points suggested by the opponents of the Bill in support of the amendment. They are suggesting that there are social consequences from the legislation which will have a bad effect on society in general. On that assertion our reply to those who support the Bill is: where will you find any supporting evidence for these assertions? The second point they are making is that there is a connection between contraception and illegitimacy. Here we had, as I have been quoting, the article of Dr. Nowlan, invoking different sources of research. The last of his articles which appeared in December have not been contradicted by the people who say they are against Senator Robinson's Bill and who are in favour of the amendment.

It is now almost March and those figures have been there in print since December without contradiction. The next assertion that has been made by the Irish Family League is that contraception leads eventually to legalised abortion. We have had that opinion reflected here when we were told earlier today that abortion is in fact the ultimate contraceptive. The fourth assertion is that there is a connection between contraception and promiscuity, and finally, there is an attack on the methods of contraception themselves, an argument from a specialist. I suggest that none of these five propositions, which are really the basic assertions made in the debate, in the public Press and here today by two people, has a single substantiating piece of evidence and in three months there has not been any reply to the Nowlan articles. I would suggest that there is no research anywhere which supports any one of these assertions or statements. The situation is that the people who are opposing Senator Robinson's Bill and proposing the amendment feel that they can make up their facts as they go alone. They do not need any evidence because this is essentially a bigoted attitude, and if you are bigoted in any way you do not need truth and you believe anything. You do not need to do any research: it is a fine, easy view of the world.

I believe that the best perspective for judging the Bill is from the perspective of civil rights. We have inherited certain areas in economic, political and social life in which people are denied rights. This Bill is to amend the Criminal Law (Amendment) Act, 1935, and will be a starting point towards creating the context of a situation in which one aspect of personal right will be asserted. I know many more that should be changed. I want to make it perfectly clear, and I might take up some other Senators on this, that I do not believe the State has the right to legislate or that it is appropriate for the State to legislate in the area of private morality. If you accept that vision and that view of society, then it becomes necessary to remove all those pieces of legislation, all those Acts, which in any way affect private morality.

Another thing I find rather curious is that if morality in Ireland is such a delicate flower that it needs to be defended by legislation, surely this is casting some kind of aspersion on the community in which we live. In other words, we have to be legislated into governing our private moves. The next thing we may have to do is to legislate our people into churches to hear Mass. The whole idea of the State enacting legislation in areas of private morality is impractical, is bad law, and the sooner we restore the situation where people exercise their own decision in relation to private morality, the better. I suspect that there will be no great change or no great rush on chemists' shops following this Bill. It is a shame that it could not be done without fuss, that we could not give a right which is a basic civil right belonging to our people. I took a particular liking to a quotation from the correspondence Canon Murphy had with The Irish Times on 12th February, 1974, which was drawn to our attention.

It is in the record.

It is in the record, yes. The basic argument was that accepting the Bill was equivalent to having a dip, to use the phrase that is in the record. In this Bill, we are dealing with a basic essential human right. To look at it in any other way is to twist the argument and introduce irrelevancies.

The Leader of the House addressed himself to two or three basic questions before stating his commitment to the existing state of legislation. He spoke about the nature of law itself and the role of the State in relation to the Legislature and law. He suggested that there was a universal natural law from which social positive law was enacted; that we should legislate for the common good. The common good, the plain people of Ireland, and the quality of life were never defined. The Leader began by saying there was the natural law from which positive law was derived. That is one theory in legal science but it has now been abandoned by the majority of people. I cannot see why we have to drag red herrings into this debate. The Bill is an extremely short one and it would have been more useful if we had concentrated solely on the Bill. Senator Horgan made some interesting points but, like Senator Robinson, he quoted sources for his statements and drew attention to different surveys which had beeen carried out and which are available to Senators.

I am supporting this Bill because it deals with civil rights. We should only make such amendments as are necessary to make it a better piece of legislation. I can see great danger in the marriage qualification because it could end up with the degrading spectacle of a woman showing her marriage certificate in a chemist shop.

Many of us involved in third-level education had the opportunity of benefiting from such education. Nine per cent of lower middle class people make it to universities—this is one in ten. Those of us who are getting involved in this public debate have a serious duty to confine the debate to the facts that have been set out and to the Bill as it has been drafted. To retreat into emotive fiery language is a dreadful abdication of responsibility particularly by those of us who have benefited from third-level education and who perhaps teach in a university.

If we succeed in whipping up a sufficient emotive surge to carry the amendment we will have succeeded in harassing the most broken people in our society, those who got married and who are living in bad and decaying housing. It will be a case of the most privileged people in society making the condition of the deprived people of society even worse.

I am grateful to Members of the House for allowing me to intervene. I should like to indicate the Government's attitude to the present position consequent on the McGee case and also to express the Government's intention with regard to a measure of their own. With regard to the McGee case I would venture to say that the finding in that case is the dominant feature in this debate. It is the only feature in this whole area of contraception at present. I was surprised by the muted references which were made to it in the course of this debate.

As a result of the decision of the Supreme Court in the McGee case subsection (3) of the 1935 Act vis-a-vis the importation of contraceptives has been declared unconstitutional. There were four judgments in favour and one dissenting judgment. The rationale of the judgment in favour of making the change defined that married couples have a right guaranteed by the Constitution not to have access to contraceptives denied to them by law. This means that married couples are entitled to have contraceptives reasonably available to them. It also means that the legal position up to now has been turned completely upside down. This change has been made by the Supreme Court which have laid down as a matter of constitutional law that contraceptives are to be available to married couples. There is nothing any of us or indeed the Oireachtas can do to change that position. There is no law we can pass to remove that right. It has been declared by the Supreme Court as a constitutional right. That is the present legal position. It does not appear to be appreciated that there has been a revolution in this area by virtue of that decision. It is now a matter of our constitutional law that married couples are not to have access to contraceptives denied them by the law.

Consequently, neither this House nor the Dáil or the Oireachtas put together can pass a law removing what has been declared by the Supreme Court to be a constitutional right. The full import of that particular finding does not seem to have penetrated public consciousness to the extent it might. A reflection of that failure has been the tenor of the debate today. It was a most interesting debate, but I could not help having the feeling that there was something irrelevant about debating essentially whether contraceptives should be available as a right or not when the Supreme Court have already made the finding that married couples are not to have access to contraceptives denied to them by law. That is the legal position. Having regard to that decision the debate on the relevancy of the availability of contraceptives is not in point. The debate here might have marked the end of an era of similar types of debates which have taken place over the past 30 years, debates such as the right of a church to impose its moral teaching on the State, the debate trying to resolve the dilemma of private morality as opposed to the common good. This debate today was probably the last of those debates. The Supreme Court have utterly changed the position. There is nothing that the Oireachtas can do to undo what the Supreme Court have done. This is a fact that I should like to make widely known to the public. It is only in the knowledge of that fact that we can move on, to look at the consequences of that Supreme Court decision, to look at the consequences dispassionately with the knowledge of the legal consequences of that particular fact.

Senator Robinson, in her speech indicated the consequences of the Supreme Court decision. The consequences of that decision are that contraceptives may be imported, in unlimited quantities, into this country, as of now. She said that this unrestricted importation is unsatisfactory and dangerous. I agree with her because there are signs already that an unsavoury, under-the-counter, blackmarket trade is beginning to be built up in contraceptives. It must be common case that, while at present in this State there is a restriction on sale, an unrestricted right to import must be, in Senator Robinson's words, "unsatisfactory and dangerous".

The present position therefore is that, as a matter of law, married couples are not to have access to contraceptives denied to them by law and the Supreme Court have held that the restriction on importation is unconstitutional and must fall. Judge Walsh said that without infringing the Constitution the law could impose restrictions on the importation of contraceptives; it was not within the competence of the court to go further and make any ruling on that; that would be a matter for the legislators. There is a clear indication there that the legislators would be empowered to restrict importation of contraceptives. Bearing in mind that the Supreme Court have declared the right of married couples to have access to contraceptives, consequently any restriction would have to bear that constitutional right in mind.

The Government are anxious to regularise the position, this unsatisfactory and dangerous position mentioned by Senator Robinson, and which I think everyone will agree now exists. It is not enough just to restrict the right to import. The Government have a duty now to enshrine in legislation the constitutional finding of the Supreme Court that married couples are not to be denied access to contraceptives. This is now a constitutional right. The Government propose to introduce a Bill to regularise the position consequent on the declaration of the unconstitutionality of subsection (3) of section 17 and at the same time enshrine as a matter of law the constitutional right so found by the court.

I do not propose to give the details of that Bill at this stage, not out of any desire to keep them secret, but purely out of a sense of respect for the proprieties of the relationship between this House and the Dáil. Where a Bill is to be introduced in the Dáil the proprieties demand that the details of that Bill should not be revealed in another House, when leave has not even been given to introduce it in the Dáil. Similarly if a Bill were to be introduced here I would consider it wrong for a Minister to give details of it to the other House in advance of its introduction here. The Bill will in due course come to this House for debate. I hope Senators will appreciate that my reluctance to spell out the Government's intentions are not due to any desire to conceal those intentions but merely to observe the proprieties of the relationship between the two Houses of the Oireachtas.

The Bill is being drafted at the moment. The "t's" are being crossed and the "i's" are being dotted. I cannot say to the day when it will be introduced but I can say with certainty that it will be within a fortnight. This debate can then take place but not in the context of the style of the debate here today, which I think was old-fashioned. It was an end-of-an-era debate, an era which was ended by the McGee decision last December. A debate can take place on the merits of the Government's proposals to rationalise the legal position consequent on the McGee case.

I welcome the undertaking by Senator Lenihan on behalf of his group that the Opposition will be generous and constructive in their approach to the Bill. I found somewhat ironic, however,—if I might be political for a moment—his suggestion that the Government should accept their responsibility, four-square, bearing in mind that the last time it was sought to introduce a Bill of this measure in the Lower House he was the spokesman who, on behalf of the Government of the day, refused to give it even a First Reading.

There was no Supreme Court decision at that time.

He stated that his party would be disciplined and united. I presume that that means they are disciplined and united behind the common view. There was no sign of that common view at the Ard Fheis which was held last weekend, some two months after the Supreme Court decision. There was adequate and absolute time for the party to have come to a view which Senator Lenihan tells would enable them to present a disciplined and united view. I had to say those things because of his lecture to the Government to accept their responsibility four-square. I can assure him the Government will do that. I welcome his indication that the Opposition will be generous and constructive because, as I say, we are now in a new era on this particular subject, an era which has been utterly and completely changed as a result of the McGee decision. I hope that in the debate which will take place we will be able to forget all the acrimony of the past, will be able to get away from the rigid position of the past, and take cognisance of the fact that the law has now been changed and changed completely.

I should like to comment on what the Minister has just said. I am sure that I could say on behalf of Senators Robinson and Horgan that we welcome the Minister's assurance that a Bill is to be introduced by the Government within a fortnight. That is a very definite deadline. We look forward to that Bill. I must say I am not happy with some of the remarks he made consequent on the McGee decision in the Supreme Court, remarks which seemed to indicate that the Bill may contain a clause which will limit the availability of contraceptives to married couples. I think that you either import contraceptives or you do not and that any restriction of this nature would be ridiculous and quite impossible to enforce. One can envisage all sorts of abuses such as forged marriage certificates and all sorts of ridiculous situations. My personal feeling—I cannot speak for Senators Robinson and Horgan in this—is that any such restriction would be ridiculous.

Hear, hear.

I do not wish to speak for long but I should also like to comment on the Minister's suggestion that this debate marks the end of an era. That is a presumption which is, for me, very difficult to take. As Senator Browne has said, the attempt by Senator Robinson to introduce a Family Planning Bill under the previous administration—the previous administration cannot take much credit for what happened to that Bill—was not the beginning of this discussion. It went back to 1947. I must say I cannot see a single Government Bill ending debates of this nature where State legislation interferes with the delicate areas of private morality. I think it is the end of the beginning of an era. Although the Minister may say that this debate is somehow anachronistic after the Supreme Court decision or that we have not fully faced up to the situation as it now is, that is not the way I have seen this debate. This debate is the first time to my knowledge that either House of the Oireachtas since the foundation of the State has given full, detailed and honest face-to-face consideration to this delicate problem. I cannot see that this is the end of an era. I welcome the fact that this debate has taken place and I particularly congratulate—I am sure Senator Horgan will join me—Senator Robinson for her brave work in this sphere. I think she deserves tremendous commendation. It is particularly appropriate that a woman should spearhead a change of this nature. I do not think the situation will end here. We are just starting to get to grips with the delicate problems in this very delicate area.

I now wish to make some remarks about the amendment tabled by Senators O'Higgins, Quinlan and O'Brien. It seemed to me that they were backing away from our responsibility as legislators. All this talk about the proposals not having been submitted to a decision of the people is all nonsense that could be used to obstruct any legislation which we pass in this House. It is our job to decide these questions. That is what we were elected for. That is why we are each paid £2,000 a year or whatever it is. We have to face up to this problem and similar problems. I am disappointed that the Fianna Fáil Party felt unable to make a statement directly referring to this Bill. I was particularly sore with the last Administration that a similar Bill did not get past the First Reading Stage. At least we have moved a step further on this time. I am disappointed that the Fianna Fáil Party could not make a statement on their attitude to Senator Robinson's Bill. They could have made a detailed statement which would have given us some indication of the feeling of the Opposition Party.

I preface my remarks on the content of the Bill and on the amendment before the House with these references to the Government's attitude and to the attitude of the main Opposition Party. We are still, I think, backing away from our responsibilities. One of the encouraging things about this debate is that several Members of this House have faced up to their responsibilities. They do not necessarily agree with the Bill—it is clear that there is a great area of disagreement—but we have to put ourselves on the line and be absolutely clear and honest about it; that is what this debate is about.

As the only Protestant Member of the sponsors I think I should put on record the Protestant view of this matter. Senator Robinson has, quite rightly, read into the record the statements by the various Protestant Churches. I do not intend to go into them again. Senator Quinlan has done the same for the Hierarchy's statement. As a Protestant, I do not accept the concept of the natural law. Neither do I find any ease in deciding what is an unnatural method of preventing conception, which is the legal phrase used to describe contraception. What is unnatural? What is natural? Is the use of a thermometer any more natural than the use of the interuterine device. The arguments about unnatural methods of prevention of conception are parallel to the argument against operative medicine in the beginning of the last century.

Operative medicine is not a natural procedure. Whenever one has to undergo an operation it certainly is not natural. After some debate we have accepted the fact that operative medicine is an essential part of our social and medical lives. The arguments about unnatural methods seem to me to be from that era, the beginning of the last century, when people felt that operations were in some way against the law of God or whatever moral or theological view they held. It is impossible to decide what is unnatural or what is natural in these circumstances. I do not accept the concept of the natural law. If I did accept a concept of a natural law I would not accept it as interpreted by the Roman Catholic theologians.

I wish to read one statement into the record. It is not a statement by a Protestant group. It is a statement by a joint Roman Catholic/Protestant group, the Corrymeela Community. I quote the Corrymeela Community as "a grouping of Catholics and Protestants involved both in social problems and the development of a new and better society in all parts of Ireland." It records its support for the proposals contained in the Family Planning Bill recently introduced in the Seanad of the Irish Republic. It says: "We would urge all legislators to resist the attempts being made to retain the moral teachings of a single church as part of the law of the land and to treat with caution the unproven assumption that the controlled availability of contraceptives leads to a general lowering of moral standards. Liberalisation of the law in this respect should not be seen primarily as a gesture towards Northern Protestants but as a recognition of the dignity of the individual and his right to decision and as a step towards more open, honest and caring society in Ireland."

I have a great deal of respect for the younger generation in this country. I do not think they are prepared to accept the old morals or conventions without giving them thorough examination. This is their right and their duty. The Bill which Senator Robinson has spearheaded here gives them a freedom of choice in this matter and, therefore, gives them added responsibility. This responsibility can only be exercised if there is an adequate programme of sex education in the schools and in all educational institutions, second level, third level and, in fact, in primary schools. This is one of the matters we have to face up to. Many of the wild and more ridiculous statements that have been made today have been made today have been made because people do not really know the facts.

I must confess that I attended Protestant schools and there was no sex education there. Of course, it would have been illegal to distribute any literature in this connection except the most wild and ridiculous type. Serious literature dealing with this serious and important subject must be available to people who are to make choices about the use of contraceptives, about planning their families. They must be able to obtain the widest and deepest possible medical advice. It is ridiculous for a Government if it is the intention to introduce a Bill in which even a married couple get contraceptives if they are not allowed to get literature which tells them how they are used and which helps them to understand the process that is going on.

Nobody could stand over that sort of ridiculous situation. I hope that when the Government bring in their Bill they will take that further step which seems to me to be absolutely necessary consequent on the Supreme Court judgment in the McGee case. As Senator Robinson and the Minister said, it would be irresponsible to have absolutely free and open distribution of contraceptives. There are all sorts of abuses that could take place and it would be just as irresponsible to have distribution of any type without the proper literature being available. I hope the Government will ensure that this is dealt with when they bring in their legislation.

I wish to refer to the phrase which is used in the amendment on a couple of occasions and has been used in this debate frequently—"the quality of life in the State". I quote from the Hierarchy statement:

The real question facing the legislators is what effect would the increased availability of contraceptives have on the quality of life in the Republic of Ireland. That is a question of public, not private, morality. What the legislators have to decide is whether a change in the law would on balance do more harm than good by damaging the character of the society for which they are responsible.

They go on to say:

There is a good deal of evidence that it would. Experience elsewhere indicates that where the sale of contraceptives is legalised material infidelity increases and the birth of children outside wedlock (surprising as it may seem) increases, abortions increase, there is a marked increase in the incidence of venereal disease and the use of contraceptives tends to spread rapidly among unmarried young people.

Then the statement goes on to produce some statistics from England and Wales That seems to me to be particularly significant—England and Wales —particularly as it is the Irish Hierarchy who are talking about England and Wales. The other defenders of the status quo keep referring to America and Scandinavia saying—“ Look what the availability of contraceptives has done in these countries.” It is an absolutely fatuous and ridiculous argument for anybody to make that the availability of contraceptives has caused increases in illegitimate births or increases in instances of venereal disease in countries about which I think the people who make these remarks know very little. There is a country in the Irish Hierarchy's province about which they should know a great deal where contraceptives are freely available.

The basis of our society is quite different from that of society in the US, in Scandinavia, in England or in Wales. The only place we can really compare like with like, in so far as the Republic of Ireland is concerned, is with Northern Ireland. When we make these glib comparisons about the decline in the quality of life the real test is whether or not the quality of life is less in Northern Ireland where contraceptives have been freely available for a considerable period of time to anybody who wants them, whether married or not. I think this is very important. I feel that if you make statements like this and make a comparison you have got to put your comparison on some sort of accurate basis.

I am one of those Members of the Oireachtas who spends a great deal of time in Northern Ireland. I have spent my summer holidays in the North every year since I was a young fellow. Whatever problems the people in the North have—we know they have problems—it has never struck me as an individual, that the quality of life in Northern Ireland is one whit less or worse or degraded or in any way inferior to the quality of life in the Republic. I have always found attitudes on morality in Northern Ireland extremely conservative. This is just as true of the Protestant community up there as it is of the Roman Catholic community.

When people make these wild statements and start comparing our society with England and Wales they ought to start thinking about Northern Ireland. They should look at the comparisons there, get hold of some of the figures and put their money where their mouths are. They should be able to prove that what they say in a society which is like ours holds good. The Hierarchy refer to Northern Ireland in their statement. Professor Quinlan read this into the record and it referred to the Northern Ireland situation. Several other people referred to it. I say straight out that we should not make these changes just for the benefit of the Northern Ireland people. We should make them for our own people here. Those are the people we legislate for. Let us not run away from it. We are not making these changes because of Sunningdale. If we make these changes and it helps the Sunningdale agreement that is fine. I think it will have a considerable effect on the Sunningdale and post-Sunningdale situation.

Let us examine this comparison with Northern Ireland a bit more carefully. Let us look at the glib statements that we make here today and the glib part of the Hierarchy's statement which insinuates that the availability of contraceptives increases all these types of moral degeneracy. Let us look at Northern Ireland. First of all, let us look at the political party that represents 90 per cent of the Roman Catholic population in Northern Ireland, the SDLP. The SDLP at their annual conference towards the end of November, 1973, considered the following motion.

Conference deplores the continued enshrinement of exclusively Catholic moral codes in the laws of the Irish Republic and reaffirms its belief in the creation of a truly pluralist society.

At the annual conference of the SDLP representing 90 per cent of the Roman Catholic laity in the North as a political party, this motion was passed by 121 votes to 8. So, whatever the Hierarchy say the Roman Catholic laity in the North have given an absolutely clear indication of what they feel by this vote at the annual conference of the Social Democratic and Labour Party.

I should like to read two comments which I have received from Ministers in the Northern Executive. They are both Roman Catholics. The first one is from Oliver Napier. He said:

I was delighted to see the decision of your Supreme Court on the question of the unconstitutionality of the law prohibiting the importation of contraceptives. Perhaps this decision will help to get a sense of urgency into changing your Constitution in many important matters.

The second letter is from Paddy Devlin, who is the Minister for Health in the Northern Executive. He said:

May I, in turn, express my admiration at the work being done by you, Mary Robinson, John Horgan and others in the Seanad? Your present Bill is basic to political movement and development.

Those last two letters are from very senior members of the Roman Catholic community in the North. They are very responsible people. The SDLP have made it absolutely clear that they favour the changes in the law down here too.

I should like to put on record, since we are comparing the Republic with Northern Ireland, the figures which I have received from the Economic and Social Research Institute in Dublin for illegitimate births as a percentage of total number of births. In Northern Ireland, in 1970, they were 3.8; in England and Wales, in 1970, they were 8.3 and in the Republic in the same year they were 2.7. I should also like to give the figures for legally induced abortions occurring in Britain to women normally resident in Northern Ireland and the Republic. In 1970 there were 199 from Northern Ireland and 261 from the Republic. This figure is particularly relevant because abortion is illegal in Northern Ireland. The women who wish to have abortion in Northern Ireland are forced, like the women here, to go to the mainland of Britain. In 1971 there were 648 from Northern Ireland and 578 from the Republic. In 1972 there were 775 from Northern Ireland and 974 from the Republic.

This should scotch the ridiculous argument that has been put forward today that contraceptives necessarily lower the quality of life if we take it that the quality of life in this country has not declined because up to recently contraceptives had not been legally available, although as Senator Robinson pointed out, at the beginning of this debate, there are 38,000 Irish women who use the pill. They use it as a cycle regulator, but, of course, this is only semantics: they use it because it is a contraceptive pill and let us cut out the cycle regulation business: they get it in this semantic way by calling it a cycle regulator so that their doctors can prescribe it.

People who would oppose this Bill or who would support the amendment ought to put themselves on the line in regard to the changes in the law we would have to make if the Sunningdale agreement was implemented, and if we ever came to think seriously about Irish unity. There are 1,000,000 Protestants in Northern Ireland whom we have to deal with. They are not going to keep their heads below the ground, as the Protestants have continually done in the Republic since the foundation of the State.

The opposers of this Bill should realise what their remarks mean when they talk about degenerate societies to the people in Northern Ireland, both Catholic and Protestant. I consider it insulting to talk this way. The only society with which we can compare ourselves is the society in the North, and the figures I have given and the remarks I have made concerning Northern Ireland help to expose the shallowness of this whole argument.

It has been said by supporters of Senator Robinson's Bill, admittedly outside the House, that those who proposed this amendment were against family planning. That is a gross misrepresentation. Perhaps it is not worthy of mention but at least it is as worthy of being referred to as the reference made to the letter written by the lady in Blackrock.

It is acceptable and accepted that parents have the right to plan the number of the family, the spacing between children and indeed, if they wish, to plan to have no children at all. However, it is the methods used that have led to the conflict of opinion. There is what may be described as the natural method or what can be described as the artificial method. The recent decision of the Supreme Court has meant that the employment of the contraceptive method is legal. From 1935 to 1973 that was not the case. It is a matter of conscience for a husband and wife to decide whether or not they will avail of this. For a long time there was a difference of opinion about it, even in the legal world. Then the High Court decided that it was unconstitutional to import contraceptives but the later decision of the Supreme Court changed that. The decision of the Court was that the availability of contraceptives should not be denied to married couples. That is the law as it stands. Before that there were differences of opinion in the legal world. There are differences of opinion among churchmen, as there are in this House. This has been a controversial matter for a long time.

The Minister has indicated that in view of the judgment given in the Supreme Court the Government will have to look at the problem of unrestricted importation of contraceptives. Something that would be a cause of concern to many people would be the ready availability of contraceptives to young unmarried people. Perhaps there are people who are of the opinion that they should be available, even readily available. However a greater number of people hold that this would be wrong and this is something that will demand the attention of the Government and the Minister when they are drafting the Bill that is to be introduced. I believe the majority of people would like to see a strict control on the sale of contraceptives. It would be most unfortunate if a black market were permitted to be created or that contraceptives should be sold indiscriminately. Their sale should be very restricted and there should be careful supervision. In addition, the sale of contraceptives that induce abortion should be strictly forbidden.

Another point that should engage the attention of the Government, when the sale of contraceptives becomes legal is advertising. It could happen that commercial firms would indulge in a great advertising campaign for the purpose of making money, the suggestion being that the only way to plan a family was the useful employment of contraceptives, and that the other methods, which we call, for want of another term, the natural method would be pushed into the background. It would appear to the vast majority of the people that there was only one way to engage in family planning and that was by the use of contraceptives; this is the slogan which would be used by the commercial firms.

I listened with interest to Senator Quinlan with regard to the other method of family planning. I am not an authority on that. I do not expect Senator Quinlan, not being a medical man, is either but at the same time he did advance very worthwhile arguments. That would need attention. I agree with what Senator West said about a preparatory course of instruction in the schools. Could it begin in primary school? People should be prepared and made aware of the fact that there is such a method of family planning. They should have the most up-to-date information according as knowledge in science advances. That is a means of family planning which does not strike against anybody's conscience.

If it were regarded as the safe way, if it were regarded as 95 or 99 per cent reliable, then perhaps people who now favour the use of contraceptives would go back to the other system. But we will not reach that day without better education. We certainly will not reach it if commercial firms advancing the sale of contraceptives are allowed to drive home their side of the story to the neglect of the other side. These firms will be on their way to accumulating wealth as a result of this. The only other side that could advance the case the other way would be some Government Department, either the Department of Health or the Department of Education, and it is quite likely that a second case would not be presented as well as the other. The Minister and the Government will have to bear this in mind when drafting the Bill.

Despite the references made to life in Northern Ireland—they were all made in good faith as a result of visits there—this is a fact that I feel I must advance. I know a number of people who have come back to live in Ireland at some financial loss and considerable inconvenience to themselves and their families because they did not wish to rear their families in a permissive environment similar to that which we would have if we were to adopt the suggestion put forward here. I believe that point of view should be got across. These people have experienced life in the permissive society and are willing to undergo great inconvenience and financial loss —professional men, building contractors, tradesmen, labourers, men of all classes. They have come home because they did not think that that was the proper environment in which to bring up their families. That environmen did not conform with the standards they had in mind when it came to rearing their children. If we by some action, such as introducing a Bill that develops that type of environment here, force these people to leave, we will not be doing a good day's work.

Reference was made to the people in favour of introducing contraceptives and family planning. Reference was made also to the number of Irish girls who go for abortions to England. That does not prove any argument at all. It is most regrettable that happens. Perhaps education would serve towards reducing that figure too. It is an unpleasant thing. We are all depressed that it should happen. In Britain, where contraceptives have been freely available for a very long time, it was subsequently found necessary to pass a law permitting abortions. The introduction of contraceptives does not eliminate abortion.

I have great respect for those who introduce such Bills, people like Senator Robinson. I am convinced that they are speaking from conviction. People who think as they do must often feel worried about the development that accelerates once you get on the liberal, "permissive society" approach. If there is any justification for linking the demand for the liberal availability of contraceptives with the demand for introducing a law making abortion legal and, further, a demand for euthanasia, I think people might have to think twice before heading off on this downward slope of permissiveness.

It is probably fitting that I, who behaved in a disorderly manner in order to get the House to sit through tea time this afternoon, should have the last say in this debate, though the last say in the debate is in a sense pre-empted by the Minister's remarks. These remarks disappointed me, I must say, in the sense that the main burden of his comment was that it had been a rather disappointing debate, rather old-fashioned, sort of representing the end of an era and that it did not take sufficient cognisance of the McGee case. As I listened I thought the McGee case got its due weight. It was frequently referred to and adequately dealt with. The suggestion that the Seanad should have spent more of its time discussing a decision of the Supreme Court does not seem to me to reflect a proper notion of what the Houses of the Oireachtas are about.

This issue of family planning has been in the air for a long time. The Government have been in power for a year. I should hate to think that a responsible Government having given undertakings on matters such as this, or responsible Opposition either, should lay so much weight upon a decision of the Supreme Court which was occasioned by a private individual bringing the case before it. It would seem very much to reflect on the importance of the centrality of the Houses of the Oireachtas if that was the sort of complexion and profile to be put on the deliberations of the Seanad and our responsibilities towards the electorate.

This debate has been an extremely good debate. It dealt with every possible aspect. In time to come the record of this debate will be seen as a classic of its kind. It may be the end of an era but, if it is, that era has ended well, because every possible aspect of this measure has been discussed. It was discussed not because of Mrs. McGee and the Supreme Court, but because certain Members of the Seanad insisted that this matter of grave public importance should be discussed by the Houses of the Oireachtas. They persisted in that evangel for four years in the face of a great deal of discouragement. They eventually got it on to the floor of the House and it was not an easy thing to do.

There were certain old-fashioned aspects to today's debate. It embodied an old-fashioned notion in some of the speeches, even in regard to the relationship of Church and State as conceived by the Catholic Church, my own Church. I could argue that Senator O'Higgins, whose speech I thought was redolent of dignity, decency and courtesy, still embodies an old-fashioned and an out-moded notion of the relationship between Church and State.

Because this notion of the Catholic Church and Catholic theology has been raised, I should like to read on to the record a very short passage which is profoundly relevant to this entire debate and which may be worth referring to in future debates of this kind. The kind of issue between public and private morality raised today is not dead; the McGee case has not killed that. It has not rendered the Houses of the Oireachtas all that redundant. The Declaration on Religious Freedom begins with this remark:

A sense of the dignity of the human person has been impressing itself more and more deeply on the consciousness of contemporary man. And the demand is increasingly made that men should act on their own judgment, enjoying and making use of responsible freedom, not driven by coercion but motivated by a sense of duty. The demand is also made that constitutional limits should be set to the powers of government, in order that there may be no encroachment on the rightful freedom of the person and of associations.

This demand for freedom in human society chiefly regards the quest for the values proper to the human spirit. It regards, in the first place, the free exercise of religion in society.

That is a resounding and affirmative statement, a statement which will of course, be recognised by Senator Alexis FitzGerald, whose commentary on this particular aspect of Catholic teaching I thought was a model today, particularly when he made the assertion that it was a moral duty on the part of a member of the Roman Catholic Church to secure and struggle for the rights of others.

That is the kind of moral, I would suggest in theological panoply, within which this should be discussed. I am not saying it should be discussed in a religious panoply at all but, necessarily, it raised its head today. The Minister is correct in saying that to that extent, perhaps, it is an old-fashioned debate in the sense that this kind of collision between theology and jurisprudence may not be in the future a feature of the deliberations of the Houses of the Oireachtas.

Another manner in which the debate in the Seanad today distinguished itself was this, that there had been an outcry by some of its critics and, indeed, by some of the Senators in the House that there was a lack of moral courage on the part of the Members of Seanad Éireann. It was suggested that, perhaps, this debate might be used to have a showy display for the sake of the grassroots, where Senators might get up and say things that were insincere in order to drag in votes. In other words, to condemn roundly the new kind of permissiveness.

This did not take place. There were only two speeches, at the time the Minister spoke, against this Bill. Senator O'Brien did not speak very strenuously against it. Most of the speeches today were, in fact, in favour of it and all the speeches showed a coolness—here I disagree with my friend, Senator Higgins—a great maturity and an enormous amount of thinking and research. The debate in the Seanad today will go down as one of the best debates the Seanad ever produced.

The Seanad today insisted on one thing that seems to me utterly essential in the life of our State—and it is here I disagree most strongly with Senator O'Higgins and Senator Quinlan where they call for a referendum on a matter of this kind. A referendum on a matter of this kind— here I agree again with Senator FitzGerald; I agree with everything he said today even when he seemed to be advancing two views at the same time; I agree always with both views— involves a matter of very great importance. Legislation is not enacted by the counting of heads. Some of the most enlightened legislation ever produced in this State, or in any other State, would have been defeated if it was taken into the market place. The reasons are quite obvious. When you hold a referendum of that kind the chances are that those who go out to vote under the pressure of propaganda and persuasion are likely to vote in a sectional way, in a selfish way. They are likely not to take the same overall account of right and wrong, of good and evil, of public and private, of the general balance of moral equity that legislators are supposed to take.

It is not unreasonable to assume that legislators, when they either produce legislation or discuss it, debate it or amend it, bring to it a scrutiny which the ordinary man in the street cannot produce. What is the nature of that scrutiny? I do not think it is the nature of that scrutiny to necessarily rely on sociologists, psychologists, scientists, statisticians. Ultimately, it is this kind of debate here that we have had today—an exchange of views between sensible and committed people —that produces good legislation. It is with a view to that—the difference between legislation by Parliament and this motion of legislation by referendum which I think was misguidedly injected into the debate on family planning—that I should like again to read on to the record something by a writer, who was again cited by Senator FitzGerald, Sir Patrick Devlin.

The document is called The Enforcement of Morals. It is the Maccabaean Lecture in Jurisprudence of the British Academy of 1959 and it was constructed after the Wolfenden Report and after the recommendations of the Wolfenden Report had been brought into legislation in England. He addresses himself to this problem: “Where does legislation come from?”, “Where is the kind of central moral authority?”“What is it's source?” He produces a very ordinary concept but I think it is the one that must govern legislation. I quote:

In what circumstances the State should exercise its power is the third of the interrogatories I have framed. But before I get to it I must raise a point which might have been brought up in any one of the three.

Here is the crucial quotation:

How are the moral judgments of society to be ascertained? By leaving it until now, I can ask it in the the more limited form that is now sufficient for my purpose. How is the law-maker to ascertain the moral judgments of society? It is surely not enough that they should be reached by the opinion of the majority; it would be too much to require the individual assent of every citizen. English law has evolved and regularly uses a standard which does not depend on the counting of the heads. It is that of the reasonable man. He is not to be confused with the rational man. He is not expected to reason about anything and his judgment may be largely a matter of feeling. It is the viewpoint of the man in the street —or to use an archaism familiar to all lawyers—the man in the Clapham omnibus. He might also be called the right-minded man. For my purpose I should like to call him the man in the jury box, for the moral judgment of society must be something about which any twelve men or women drawn at random might after discussion be expected to be unanimous.

This was the standard the judges applied in the days before Parliament was as active as it is now and when they laid down rules of public policy they did not think of themselves as making law but simply as stating principles which every right-minded person would accept as valid. It is what Pollock called "practical morality", which is based not on theological or philosophical foundations but "in the mass of continuous experience half-consciously or unconsciously accumulated and embodied in the morality of common sense". He called it also "a certain way of thinking on questions of morality which we expect to find in a reasonable civilized man taken at random".

How does that apply to what we were talking about today? Take the man on the Clapham omnibus or the man on the 46A bus, a bus which I take with increasing frequency of late. Somebody described a pedestrian as a married man with a car. I am becoming more and more a pedestrian of late.

Let us take the attitude of an ordinary person, the man who travels home on the 46A bus,—I am not talking about the shrill letters through the post, I am not talking about the leader writers, I am talking about ordinary people—and put to him the kind of Bill that was put before this House today. It was one in which the Supreme Court had made is possible and permissible for married people to import contraceptives. It was also a Bill which existed before that enactment was made. The central concern of that Bill is a human concern.

If you put the question "Are you in favour or not in favour of contraception?", he answer could be anything. Devlin's idea of that man is that after discussion he comes to a conclusion. If you said to that man on the bus: "If you knew a woman living in a room, the mother of seven or eight children, with very little money—and there are such people in society—do you think it is right for us to deny her the means of limiting her family?"—I submit that he would say: "We have not that right unless we immediately fulfil the obligation of giving her a decent house and of helping her husband find a job." In other words, does a society which has not yet, even though it has tried, supplied sufficiently even decent basic frugal living conditions, have a right to deny the means of limitation of family to a citizen? The answer of common sense would have to be, "No, you have not that right."

Going a little further one could say: "What about the married man and woman who have three or four children and find themselves forced to practise celibacy over a long period and become alienated from each other? Have they the right?" The answer might be slightly different— but ultimately that too will be granted.

The Bill before us today was of this kind. At present contraceptives are available; now we have to frame legislation. This legislation can be of three kinds. It can be prohibitive, a referendum could be held to change the whole constitutional situation and utterly be prohibitive. Should it be restrictive, that is do you allow a certain amount? Do you frame means of controlling it? On the third hand it could be permissive. Of the three what would the sensible man opt for? Would he say to be prohibitive? Would he block every entry to the country and let nothing in? I do not think the ordinary man would say that. Would he say to be permissive, to open the floodgates, let the entire country be engulfed and polluted? I do not think he would say that, I think he would say "Let us be restrictive". I think his reaction would be to frame a Bill which would allow this in a limited way. If the Bill now before the House were produced to him the answer would be "yes".

He might change it in some small way, in the other direction. The framer of the Bill admitted that today; she said: "Let us have emendations of the Bill." She did not claim it was perfect. The Bill itself is the kind which the ordinary man would feel is reasonable and fair. The facts involved here have not been sufficiently disseminated.

I would agree with Senator Michael Higgins when he said that a great deal of the debate outside the House was emotive. I would not agree that the debate inside the House was predominantly emotive. It was judicial, speculative, intelligent, probing and extremely open-minded. It was a debate that could be used as a model for debates in future. I do not say that in self-congratulation; I did not take part in it and am more or less acting as an unofficial summariser.

On the question of Irish life, I do not think this phenomenon is suddenly laid to rest. Every Bill enacted is concerned with the quality of Irish life. I am by no means dismissive of that concept. The Hierarchy in drawing attention to it did its job well. The three churches did their job extremely well. What did they do? The Hierarchy acted in the most responsible way possible and here I would disagree with many of my colleagues. They made no comment until the Bill had got its First Reading. Then they made their position absolutely clear, and withdrew from the arena and rightly so. They have said nothing since. They said it was a job for the legislators, they did not say a referendum was needed.

We did not find it very easy to get this debate; we had to go into the lobbies in order to get it. However we got it and we discussed the issues maturely, intelligently and fruitfully.

I would remind the Senator at this point that it is now two minutes to the time at which the House has already decided to adjourn.

I am aware of that. This question of the quality of Irish life can be spoken of in several ways. There is a sweetness about Irish life which is very good. It has to do with the moral climate. I would hate to see that moral climate eroded. Any measure involving abortion or an attack on the unborn child, therapeutic or otherwise—I do not recognise the word "therapeutic" abortion; as a teacher of English I would not accept it because whereas it may be therapy for the mother it certainly cannot be therapy for the unborn child—I would attack on the grounds of the quality of Irish life. That is the respect for life which is the great basic principle on which all humane legislation must rest.

As a teacher and as somebody who has a lot to do with young people I think the trouble—here I would agree with Senator Horgan—with our elder statesmen is that we keep legislating for the young. We keep imposing our standards on them. We try to solve their drug problems, their sex problems, their drink problems. It is up to them to solve their own problems. We must not inject our values on to them. I have the greatest trust in the youth of tomorrow. I do not believe in the rhetoric of the tidal wave. They will survive that wave. A lot of this is phantasmagoria dreamed up in our minds. The Constitution and the laws that brought in contraception and censorship legislation were correct and proper in their time. We were a young State and needed that kind of protective or restrictive legislation. We are now a more mature State. If at this stage we are not able to stand up to the winds of the world, then all our moral teachers have failed in their responsibility. When this Bill is enacted I am confident the moral fibre of our youth will survive. It will get sturdier and stronger. I would not share the views of the prophets of doom who think that we shall be all swept away, that it will destroy the fabric of our lives or pollute the moral atmosphere in which we live.

I am glad of the conclusion reached it this debate and the assurances given by the Minister. I regret that Rome and the North of Ireland played so much part in it. The legislation we enact has to be because we think it is good. Neither Rome rule nor rule from Belfast is what is concerned when we make legislation. That does not gain the respect of either polarity.

Debate adjourned.
The Seanad adjourned at 10 p.m.sine die.
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