It is proposed to take Nos. 2 and 3 on the Order Paper. Senator Lenihan will recall that at the last meeting of the Seanad the question of taking Motion No. 20 on today's Order paper was raised, the motion concerning the Minister for Agriculture and Fisheries. It might be helpful to inform him that the Minister is prepared to take this motion next month. I am hoping at our next meeting, but I do not want to bind myself to that.
Order of Business.
I should like to thank the Senator for this information. This is an important and basic motion which should be taken as soon as possible.
On the Order of Business for today I should like some elucidation from the Leader of the House as to why the Family Planning Bill has been ordered for today when since the last debate we have had three sitting days on which the Government did not order this Bill for debate. On the last occasion we had two full days' debate on this Bill in which there was a full contribution from all sides of the House and from most Independent Members of the Seanad.
At this stage it would appear to be a pointless, fruitless and mischievous exercise on the part of the Government to allow time for a debate on this measure today when we have in our hands since this morning the Government's own Bill on this subject. What is hoped to be gained by making a mockery of democracy and parliament by having two simultaneous measures, one a Government measure which is now in the hands of the public and of which we are aware and, secondly, a measure for which Government time is now being given? Is this not a case where the Government cannot make up their minds where they are going? The decision of the Fine Gael Party last night not to back, unanimously, as the major party within the Government, their own Government's Bill would appear to add further to the confusion in the situation and point to the fact that what we are seeing here is an example of totally indecisive and inept Government.
An Leas-Chathaoirleach
I have allowed the Senator to raise a point on the Order of Business and it is not in order for him to make a lengthy speech now.
On the Order of Business, I should like to know from the Leader of the House why after the lapse of three sitting days a measure which was fully debated for two days in the Seanad has now been put on the Order of Business side by side with the Government's own measure on which the major party in Government appears to be divided and cannot find unanimous support within their own ranks. Why is this confused situation presented to the public as an example of inept and incompetent Government?
I should like to ask the same question as Senator Lenihan but from a different perspective. I agree with him that this has come rather suddenly and that one has not had much of an opportunity to examine the Government's proposals. As the text arrived in the post only this morning it is very hard to examine this rather complex Bill adequately and fairly in that time. My question is: why not have left it a little longer or circulated the Government Bill a little sooner? However, it comes ill from Senator Lenihan to talk about the full debate we had here on the two days when the Seanad gave time for discussion of this Bill since the main Opposition party, Fianna Fáil, did not address themselves at all to the Bill before the House at that time. Senator Lenihan was the only person who spoke during the debate and he did not address himself to the Bill. It ill becomes him, on behalf of his party, to ask that particular question today.
I should like to make an appeal to the Seanad to have a little more consideration for the initiative of proposing Private Members Bills and particularly to ask the Fianna Fáil Members of the Seanad to have a little more courtesy and a little more welcome for such Members' initiative. I do not agree with Senator Lenihan that it is a bad or a foolish or an inadequate thing to have two legislative proposals relating to the same question. I think it is a richness in our parliamentary life if we have two different ways of doing something. What I would dispute is the necessity of ordering this debate today. My co-sponsors of the Bill are unable to be present and I am sure they would like to have been present for the continued debate on this Bill—but that is a quite different reason for wondering why this Bill had to be ordered today from the query put forward by Senator Lenihan.
I should have liked more time to consider the Government's Bill in order to decide whether to press forward with this Bill or to withdraw in favour of the Government's Bill because it was a perfectly adequate and reasonable way of amending the law in this area. It meant that I had to make up my mind more quickly than I would have liked. However, I have made up my mind and I will make it clear when this Bill is being discussed.
We have a rather primitive and under-developed parliamentary tradition if we do not recognise that the Government do not have a monopoly of the initiation of legislation. It is wrong for the Fianna Fáil Party to address themselves only to Government proposals in this area. When the Fianna Fáil Party were in power they did not accept Private Members' initiative in this area.
An Leas-Chathaoirleach
Would the Senator address her remarks to the Order of Business? She is wandering substantially from it.
I take your warning, a Leas-Chathaoirleach. The point I wanted to make is that I have the same question to ask as Senator Lenihan. Why it is so necessary, rather suddenly, to order this business for today? In fairness to the Government parties I was informed on Friday that it would be ordered today. Nevertheless, I have not had as much time as I should like to have had to consider the Government's proposals in a proper and serious way to decide whether to withdraw in favour of the Government's Bill or to press for a vote on the legislation which we discussed in the Seanad during the two day debate. I have had to make up my mind more quickly than I should like to have done. Therefore perhaps I could get some explanation from the Leader of the House as to why it was ordered for today?
If the complaint put forward by Senator Robinson about the little time and courtesy that she has been allowed to look at the Government's proposed Bill on this issue could be framed as a request to have the Order of Business changed so that at some later date instead of this afternoon we could discuss this matter, I should like to give her my full support.
Senator Lenihan will probably be aware by now that the Government do not order business in this House; the House orders its own business. It is open to Senator Lenihan if he disagrees with the Order of Business, to vote against it or move any amendment he chooses in relation to it. It is a matter of a point of view. Senator Lenihan has got it off his chest that he regards the proposal to order Item No. 3 as pointless, fruitless and even mischievous. He is entitled to that point of view.
There is also a point of view that there would be something incongruous about two different Houses of the Oireachtas discussing two separate Bills on the same topic without one or other having been decided. That also is a point of view and it is the one I take, not quarrelling with anyone who takes another point of view. It is a matter for the House to fix its own business.
I am sorry if Senator Robinson did not get sufficient time to think about the matter and to study the Government proposals, but I am sure she will appreciate that what has happened is that her Bill has been proposed for ordering again on the first available opportunity after publication of the Government Bill. It seems to be necessary—and certainly seems to be desirable—that the Bill in this House should have been disposed of when the Government Bill is there. This was the first opportunity of asking to have it brought before the House again for consideration and to have it disposed of. I do not think there is anything very mysterious, and certainly nothing mischievous or sinister, in the proposal I am making that the Second Stage be resumed today.
Would the Leader of the House inform me when it is proposed to take Motion No. 19?
I am not in a position to inform the Senator today. I shall inquire about it.
Would the Leader of the House not consider that a discussion on this motion which deals with the threat to the local authorities in this country, the representatives of the ordinary people, would be a much more useful exercise than discussing Item No. 3?
If the Senator takes the view that it would be more useful to discuss it than Motion No. 20 today we can have a look at it again. Perhaps he would sort that out with Senator Lenihan.
Order of Business agreed.