The Minister has a very difficult job, not because of Fianna Fáil but because of the assorted interests on the Government side. I do not know the Minister very well but I think he likes to give the impression that he is fair. My first impression of him was that he was hard working and fair. He is introducing this legislation and he intends to pilot it right through. Must he be such a prisoner? Must he put through legislation which he could hardly expect the public to accept as being fair?
Recently we had an assurance from him that when the proposed minor adjustments were being made to the areas for local elections he would accept the wishes expressed by local authorities. That confirmed my belief that he intended to play fair. That piece of legislation and that attitude of the Minister is totally inconsistent and out of character with the present measure he intends to push through.
I should like to refer to the way in which this affects my own county, Donegal. I would ask the Minister to think not in a narrow context but to look at the overall situation. He should go back to the time when the country was carved-up and find out what area suffered most as a result of that carve-up which was done purely for political gerrymandering and no other reason. This political boundary cut off six counties and left County Donegal completely carved up.
If there had to be a boundary the more natural one was the bridge at Ballyshannon. One of the original suggestions was for seven counties and the Border would be at Ballyshannon Bridge. This was a natural border. However, the Minister should be well aware of the difficulty of maintaining this Border. The Government should be well aware of how difficult it is to identify the Border between Donegal, Tyrone, Derry, Fermanagh. It is difficult to find out the boundaries. In some cases there is little, if any, demarcation. This is the gerrymandering and the unfortunate political history of that boundary.
I thought if we were going to have a revision of constituencies that it would be done with a sense of fair play and at least those from the outside who looked at it could see that boundaries were drawn and that there was some justification of the existence of the lines set.
If I were living in County Fermanagh, whether I was representing the majority or the minority, I would have to look down and say: "Well, we have been accused all our lives of gerrymandering but we could only take second place to what we now see going on on our doorstep." This is the state that expects people from the North to come into it. Certainly, if I were Harry West campaigning in County Fermanagh I would get a blown up photograph of what the Minister now proposes to do on the boundaries of Ballyshannon and Fermanagh, Sligo—Leitrim and Donegal. It would show the most ridiculous picture. No better weapon could be used by the hard-line Loyalists in the North to muster support and to oppose the joining of the Republic in a United Ireland than this piece of boundary drafting, which was definitely done for pure political manipulation. Anyone who looks at it will see that it is nothing else.
Recently I spoke to a Fine Gael county councillor in the Ballyshannon area and he said: "I think the Minister was wrong. He has accepted what he has been told by Deputy Jim White. He has made a mistake. It is a disgrace. Politically it will not do me any good." Those are the words expressed by a Fine Gael councillor in the area. It was ridiculous to take two booths out of Donegal and put them into Sligo—Leitrim. The figures quoted for those two booths were 600 votes. Fianna Fáil had a majority there. To attempt to bring those two booths out of Donegal was ridiculous in the extreme. In other words, if a man is living in Ballintra or Pettigo he would have to motor up nearly as far as Bundoran to vote. He could meet a man on the road from Finner Camp motoring down to Ballyshannon to vote.
The Minister should not have paid that price. He will see, as time goes on, that the people in the North who are anxiously looking for reasons to oppose any co-operation or any attempt to unite the country will have no difficulty in convincing their voters that this would be a dangerous party to join up with, that they themselves would be exposed to this type of gerrymandering, that they had never experienced anything like it in the past and they could see where their future would lie if they had to live with a Dublin-based Government that could get away with this.
I think the Minister should look at this aspect of it again. It would not do him any harm. In fact, it will do a lot of good. If the Minister shows that he is amenable to reason at all, or that he is prepared to depart from this cast-iron attitude, they will weather the storm right through, regardless of what comments are made, what picture it presents and what political disadvantage it will be. I am thinking of the political situation between North and South.
The people in the North today are struggling and searching their hearts for a solution and a common ground. They are pointing out the advantages. They are pointing out that we are not an unreasonable people in the South; that most of us want co-operation; that most of us are not out to bomb and kill and that there is a political future for the North by joining with the South.
All of this is thrown into complete doubt by the one piece of evidence that can be held up on a map and shown to the electorate. The people in the North have genuine figures. I would seriously ask the Minister to think about, and look hard at exactly what he is doing. The North is not that far away from his own constituency. I think that the expression of a Fine Gael councillor in the area, which I accepted as being sincere and honest, has actually embarrassed the Minister.
I cannot see the logic in drafting constituencies which were purely designed to give the Government party a greater number of seats. You cannot treat the voters like a flock of sheep. The voters will change their minds and vote on the performance of the Government. This is a Bill that at the present time has aroused a great deal of interest. I have no doubt that the Government will not get away with saying: "Well, we are only doing now what we allege Fianna Fáil would have done. We are only having one more chance at it and after we get this chance at sorting ourselves out we will be good boys in the future and we will let it go to a commission as it should have gone when Fianna Fáil were dealing with it. We are entitled to have one bash at it." This sort of attitude is not accepted by the people. The Government who said that they were capable of being the champions of fairplay are demonstrating anything but that in this performance here.
Senator Martin asked a question last night: "What was the urgency of the Bill?" I should like to know that. I think the Minister should have answered that question. I only hope that he will give an answer that is acceptable to the general public.
I wonder if the Minister feels that he will get any thanks or credit from Fine Gael. When the next election comes around Fine Gael will be looking at where they stand in the constituency. They will not be looking at where Labour stands. They have manoeuvred the Minister into thinking that Labour will be a stronger party after the boundaries are redrafted. But everybody knows that Fine Gael are publicly expressing the hope that they will not have the Labour tag tied on to them and that they will then pursue Fine Gael policies. It is public knowledge that Fine Gael spokesmen are now saying: "Perhaps we have a bit of a socialist flavour now, but this is only temporary. When we get rid of Labour we will then pursue our Fine Gael policies." I feel that the Minister will not get credit or be blessed by Fine Gael people for this piece of gerrymandering he has done here.
Quite a lot of time has gone into the drafting of this Bill and negotiating with the various interests. I am sure that the Minister is tired of listening to everybody, both from his own party and the Fine Gael Party and trying to meet their wishes. He would now be desperately anxious to hold on to the boundaries set rather than open up the matter again. I think that that can be the only reason why the Minister is steadfast and stubborn in his attitude on the boundaries. He himself is unsure of where he stands. The only basis he could have for being determined is that he has made a deal with local interests— Fine Gael or Labour—and he could not afford to break that deal without starting negotiations again with the people in these areas. This is the only explanation I can see. In ordinary circumstances, if there was nothing involved other than the two advisers from his Department sitting behind him, the Minister would be reasonable enough to turn around to them and say: "Can we do that?". It is evident that there is much more involved; that new negotiations would have to take place with the Fine Gael or the Labour Deputy in that area. That is the curse of it.
I should have liked to see as much effort going into drafting areas, boundaries, demarcations and catchment areas for our new community schools. I should have liked to see the same effort being put into Carrick in County Donegal, where there is an undecided boundary. We can sit until 1 o'clock to get this legislation through. Yet the local managers of the schools down there are asking the Department of Education for nearly two years to help them to draft boundaries and demarcations. I think this is total inconsistency in Government. First things should come first.
Some other Senators have talked about the effect this Bill will have on the west. I can see one effect it will have. Certainly we are losing a seat in County Donegal. The only reason for the Minister having the five-seater or the carve-up that he now proposes is to ensure that we lose a Fianna Fáil Deputy.
I do not think the Donegal people will differ very much from those of Sligo-Leitrim, Mayo, Galway or any other western county. We can have our political differences but we have to stand together and fight for an existence whatever Government are in power. Secondly, the people of Donegal will realise that they have been asked to pay too high a price by sacrificing one Deputy more in this parliament. Not only are they being asked to sacrifice one Deputy but, on purely narrow, political grounds, it will be a Fianna Fáil Deputy who will be sacrificed. At the same time, the scales are being further titled for the same selfish, political reasons by the Dublin Government creating extra seats in Dublin. This is further diluting the representation from the west, and especially from my county.
I do not think the people in Donegal will accept that the Government have any honest or sincere justification for taking one seat away from them, let it be a Fine Gael seat or a Fianna Fáil seat. I know this for a fact. I know that the people of Donegal were very disappointed when a Fine Gael/ Labour Government did not recognise the county because of its many problems, such as geographical location, and that they did not get a representative on the Government. There was a bitter disappointment not only in Fine Gael circles but in Fianna Fáil circles also. We have had recognition from the Fianna Fáil Government by having a Minister and a Parliamentary Secretary in their Government. The Government should have recognised the west and should have recognised Donegal. This is one more blatant example of how little the Government care about the west. It is almost an attempt to wipe out the west for political and selfish reasons. I only hope that the people will realise that, no matter what political shroud is put on this or how sweet they try to make the pill, this is not good for the west and it is not good for Donegal because of a shift in population. The tolerance that is allowable is not being used to the advantage of the western counties nor is it being used to retain representation in County Donegal.
I do not know how the Minister has allowed himself to be pushed into taking this decision because he could never see, at any time in the future and certainly not in his lifetime, that he will have a Labour Deputy in County Donegal. I cannot see it and I am sure the Minister will be the first to concede that he cannot see it. Therefore, I wonder does he realise the price he is paying there for no return or the price that he is asking the people of Donegal to pay? There is certainly no political advantage to be got out of this dastardly act of removing one Deputy from a county that needs its full representation.
I would ask the Minister to demonstrate that he is sincere and prepared to be reasonable. It might embarrass the Minister a little if he got the impression that he was acceding to the demands or requests of Fianna Fáil, but it will be much more serious for him to have the impression abroad that he would not yield an inch. We have heard a lot of talk in the past about jackboot tactics but this is the real jackboot. There is absolutely no consideration or reasonable attitude here or any hope of any alteration in the Minister's mind here. This is the impression we have. I only hope he will change his mind and show, in the area where it is likely to be held out as political gerrymandering of the worst kind, and where it is likely to damage the political future and be used as a political weapon in the North, that he will look at this aspect of it and see if he could not make the boundary where the River Erne divides the two areas. That would have been reasonable and I would ask the Minister to concede it. If he does so he will indicate to people from County Fermanagh, right across the Border, that there is a reasonable political future for them and that there is consideration for them in the hearts of the administrators in the South. Otherwise, he will confirm their greatest fears. If the Minister does so I can assure him he will have Fine Gael support in that area. There is no Labour consideration in it but if he is doing it to appease a Fine Gael man I think that that Fine Gael man is out of touch. The wishes of the local Fine Gael people there would be to have a boundary that did not embarrass them. I would ask the Minister to examine the possibility of re-aligning that boundary.
