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Seanad Éireann debate -
Thursday, 18 Jul 1974

Vol. 78 No. 15

Adoption Bill, 1974: Report and Final Stages.

I move amendment No. 1:

In page 3, between lines 29 and 30, to insert a new section as follows:

"Section 16 of the Principal Act is hereby amended by the insertion before ‘(c)’ in subsection (1) of ‘(bb)) the natural father of the child’.”

I shall not delay the House on this amendment because it has already been before the House on Committee Stage. I have given my reasons why I think the amendment should be accepted but I would like to make one comment. The Minister quoted from the Nicolaou case in the Supreme Court and he pointed out that the court held that the father had no natural right to be heard. This arose from the question of whether the Act was in breach of the Constitution; whether the father had a natural right which would make it unconstitutional not to give him that right. They were not dealing with the practical right as to whether it would be reasonable or equitable that he should be heard. I would like to point out that in section 16 of the people who are entitled to be heard, and there is quite a list of them, few, if any of them, with the exception of the mother, could be regarded as people who have a natural right or a constitutional right to be heard. They are merely people who should be heard from a practical point of view and from a common-sense point of view, and from an equitable point of view to ensure that justice was done to everybody concerned in the application.

As Senators are aware, when this matter was originally raised on Second Stage I indicated when I was replying that I was against the point of view advanced by Senator Ryan and Senator Horgan in relation to giving rights to the natural father to be heard by the Adoption Board. I indicated I was moving away from that point of view and asked time for further consideration. On further consideration I am satisfied that for a number of reasons my initial reaction was the correct one.

There has been no problem in this area. There has been no case where a natural father has sought to be heard by the Adoption Board and has been excluded. There is no grievance to be remedied by this amendment. No actual case has arisen and not only is there no widespread grievance but there is no grievance at all. That is the first point.

The second point is that the natural father is not excluded by the 1952 Act. He does not have a right to demand to be heard by the Adoption Board but the board may hear him, if they so decide. My initial reaction was that he should not be put on a par with the mother and allowed a hearing as of right. I felt that the position of the two parties did not permit of an equality of approach. I thought the mother was in a superior position because of the fact of the illegitimacy of the birth and that her superior position should be preserved through the entire area, and that it would be wrong to give the natural father equal rights, because, as I indicated, in many cases he might be an unworthy person and would not, because of that unworthiness, deserve equality of right.

There is a further difficulty. In a situation where a case is pending before the Adoption Board if the father had a right to come in to be heard co-equal with the right of the mother we could have a situation where there could be a conflict of interests between the father and the mother. If we give him an equal status the board would be in a difficult position. The direction and emphasis in the legislation is that the good of the child is the paramount consideration. Nevertheless, the board could be in a difficulty. It could be further complicated by the fact that the person purporting to be the natural father might find this fact being denied by the mother because there would not have been any finding of paternity. But you might find the mother, in order to deny the claim of the natural father, taking the line that there is no proof that he is the natural father and she might deny the paternity alleged. There might be uncertainty of knowledge on the part of both parties. One could, unhappily, visualise such a situation arising. I am sure the Senator would agree that would be a most undesirable situation, where you would have a tug-of-war between the two parties and the mother, in order to try to resolve it, denying the paternity of the person alleging that he is the natural father. This would be most undesirable.

Again, if the man had a right to come and be heard before the Adoption Board, and bearing in mind that a right carries with it a corelative duty, the question arises then that the board might see themselves as being under a duty in all cases to seek out the natural father for the purpose of hearing him before making their decision on an adoption. This is inconsistent with the nature of the case. The mother is the person who has to be considered; the father's status at that stage is ancillary and should not be co-equal with that of the mother.

The legal position of the natural father is such that, apart from an affiliation order proceedings, he has no status in our law. The Nicolaou case confirmed this and this has been the legal position in regard to natural fathers. They do not have any legal status by reason of their paternity and I think it would be introducing a novel legal principle if we were to admit the amendment in the context of this Bill. This question, however, is something that is being examined in the whole context of family law which is under examination at the moment. The Committee on Court Practice and Procedure are looking at family law and, in addition, studies are being undertaken in my Department. The rights and the position and legal status of the natural father can properly be determined in the context of family law generally. An aspect of the matter will come up for debate in due course when Senator Robinson's private Bill, in due course, comes up for debate. It would be better to leave this question of the position of the natural father for a more wide reaching debate rather than to admit new legal principles here in the comparatively narrow and specialised field of adoption. For these reasons I would suggest to the House that the amendments are not desirable. I sympathise with the humanity behind the amendments—the desire to see that justice is done by all parties involved—but for the reasons I have given we might be unwittingly doing an injustice to what I think are the principal parties, the mother and the child, the child, of course, is the principal, the mother is next.

We could import into our law a novel legal principle without having fully considered all the consequences that might flow from it generally, particularly in the adoption world. If these amendments were to be accepted the board might find themselves compelled in all cases to look for the natural father. There could be a tug of war between the natural father and the mother and there could be this very awkward situation where in order to defend her position the mother might deny the paternity of the person alleged to be the father. All this would be undesirable and it would bring the Adoption Board into an area of controversy that, at present, does not exist. It would bring the adoption procedure slightly into danger and it would be an added burden in a sensitive area. I would ask Senators not to press the amendments for these reasons and on the understanding that the principle behind the amendments is in the course of examination.

I cannot understand why the Minister says that there is no case of this kind because the Nicolaou case was one where the father was unable to put his views before the board and where the board refused to exercise their discretion. So there is at least one case where the father wanted to and was unable to put his view to the board. There may be many other cases which we do not know of where the father wanted to exercise his right or the right which he felt he had to give his views on the question of adoption.

The Minister has said at this Stage and on a number of times on the previous Stage that he was reluctant to give the father equal rights with the mother. It is quite clear that this does not propose to give the father equal rights. First of all, the mother's views would be given far more weight than those of the father. Secondly, the mother, under section 14 has a right which is not given to the father and which I do not propose should be given to the father. So, both from the legal point of view and from the practical point of view it is not proposed to give equal rights to the father and I do not suggest for one moment, that the Adoption Board should regard the father as being a person who has equal rights or that his point of view should be given equal weight with that of the mother. It is not a question of equal rights, it is a question of giving the father minimal rights and that is, to express a point of view.

The question of whether the paternity of the father might be in doubt is of course a practical problem but not one which I think is insurmountable. I think the Adoption Board would be quite right in refusing to hear somebody who merely said he was the father unless they were satisfied that he was in fact the father. Again, in the case which I mentioned there was no doubt that the father in that case was the natural father. The mother did not deny it, there was no question about it. I am merely dealing with the kind of case where there is no doubt about that aspect of the matter and if the board were in any doubt I think they would be right not to hear the person who purported to be the father. Again, this is a practical problem which I am sure that the board would be well able to deal with in a practical way.

Finally, the Minister has put forward the objection which I do not think is a valid one and that is that if this was included, the board would have to seek out the father in every case. Surely that cannot be a valid objection because there are, in section 16, eight or nine categories of people who are entitled to be heard. I think it is most unlikely that the Adoption Board consider themselves obliged to seek out every one of these categories and ask them if they want to be heard before a decision is made. Certain people are entitled to be heard if they want to be heard. The board do not seek them out and the board would not have to seek out the natural father if he was included under this amendment. I do not think that that was a valid objection to the amendment. I feel that far from giving equal rights, far from introducing a system which would be in any way dangerous or create any real difficulties this is merely giving minimal rights to a person who may, now and again, and I willingly admit it is not a situation that will exist very often, wish to be heard. There is nothing to be lost by making the kind of provision that this amendment provides for. There will be, in my view, an occasional situation where justice will not be done if this amendment is not accepted. I feel the objections he has made to it are not sufficiently weighty to justify him refusing to accept the amendment and, therefore, I must press it.

Amendment put.
The Seanad divided: Tá, 13; Níl, 19.

  • Browne, Patrick (Fad).
  • Cowen, Bernard.
  • Eachthéirn, Cáit Uí.
  • Garrett, Jack.
  • Hanafin, Des.
  • Keegan, Seán.
  • Lenihan, Brian.
  • McGlinchey, Bernard.
  • McGowan, Patrick.
  • Robinson, Mary.
  • Ryan, Eoin.
  • Ryan, William.
  • Yeats, Michael B.

Níl

  • Blennerhassett, John.
  • Boland, John.
  • Butler, Pierce.
  • Deasy, Austin.
  • Farrelly, Denis.
  • Fitzgerald, Jack.
  • Halligan, Brendan.
  • Kerrigan, Patrick.
  • Kilbride, Thomas.
  • Lyons, Michael Dalgan.
  • McAuliffe, Timothy.
  • McCartin, John Joseph.
  • Markey, Bernard.
  • O'Brien, Andy.
  • O'Brien, William.
  • O'Toole, Patrick.
  • Owens, Evelyn.
  • Russell, George Edward.
  • Sanfey, James W.
Tellers: Tá, Senators W. Ryan and Hanafin; Níl, Senators Sanfey and Halligan.
Amendment declared lost.
Amendments Nos. 2 and 3 not moved.

With the permission of the House I would like to raise a matter to which the attention of the House was drawn yesterday by Senator Yeats. As a result of careful scrutiny, the Senator detected what is a drafting error in section 4, subsection (3). Consequently, I wish to rectify the situation by way of amendment.

Government amendment No. 3.
In page 2, line 39, to delete "(1)" and substitute "(2)".
Amendment agreed to.
Bill, as amended, received for final consideration and passed.
Business suspended at 1.05 p.m. and resumed at 2.30 p.m.
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