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Seanad Éireann debate -
Wednesday, 18 Dec 1974

Vol. 79 No. 4

Transport (No. 2) Bill, 1974 (Certified Money Bill) : Committee and Final Stages.

Sections 1 and 2 agreed to.
SECTION 3.
Question proposed: "That section 3 stand part of the Bill."

This is the section that lays on the board of CIE the obligation to pay their way having account of the money provided by the Minister. I should like to return briefly to a point I was making to the Minister about the potential loss next year for CIE. When I suggested that a conservative estimate for the loss for the coming financial year 1975, would be around the £25 million mark, I was, of course, allowing for increases in fares in that. Experience of recent years, and, indeed, the experience of some 15 years back but, certainly, the last three or four years, has been that even though there have been annual increases in fares, sometimes very large increases, these have never been sufficient to enable CIE to even reduce their losses, or keep their losses at the level of the previous year. They go up year by year in spite of additional fares. There is no reason that I can see with the present rate of inflation why they should not also be in this position next year.

At the moment, as the Minister has pointed out, CIE are making losses at the rate of £19 million in a full year. They are being allotted in the Estimates for 1975 £17 million. The suggestion is, in other words, that whether by means of enormous increases in fares or other means their losses are going to decrease by £2 million, I would be interested to learn from the Minister why this figure has been inserted because it does not make sense.

That has been the experience, as Senator Yeats said, of the last few years and no matter how much any Government provided for a loss in CIE in future years this was never conditioned. The Government must keep a rein on CIE. The Government cannot say what CIE will lose next year and insert it in the Book of Estimates. That would be too much of an easy ride for the board of CIE. I am not sure how Senator Yeats calculated £25 million. I think he calculated it on the basis of £19 million for this year. Is that correct?

For a 12-month period.

I do not know how the Senator arrived at that figure either.

I can see the Minister's point. In the nine-month period, the loss was £13.95 million, as the Minister has told us. A simple calculation would suggest that £13.95 million over a nine-month period is £18.7 million over a 12-month period. In other words, CIE are losing at a rate approximately just under £19 million. This is the way I have calculated the figure, which is near enough.

It was mentioned in the Dáil but I have not got the actual figures. The point I am making is that a Government must keep a rein on CIE. I do not know what rate of wage or fare increases Senator Yeats would consider fair. We are working on hypothetical figures. It would be impossible either to prove or disprove. Senator Yeats' estimation of fare or wage increases would be very intelligent guesses but they would be estimations rather than facts. The Government have decided that a rein should be kept on CIE as much as possible, to work as tightly as possible and to examine all the ramifications in order to keep the subvention in the next financial year at £17 million.

I can see the Minister's point. However, the Minister rightly pointed out that this kind of thing in previous years had discouraged CIE because it seemed impossible for them ever to make ends meet. CIE were constantly being given additional sums of money. This is another case in point. Other people besides myself must have been estimating potential losses for next year. Surely, if the Minister were to ask CIE how much they think they will lose next year, in the light of foreseeable circumstances and possible increases in fares —surely his Department must have estimated—it would seem an elementary thing to do. While I am in no position to make an accurate estimate, it seems, in the absence of any evidence to the contrary, that £25 million is a fairly conservative estimate and that on that basis the sum in the Estimate is not simply an addition but it is an £8 million addition and a very large additional sum will be required next year. It does not seem a very sensible way of handling the national book-keeping.

I would have no way of either proving or disproving Senator Yeats' £25 million. I would hope that the Government are right and that Senator Yeats is wrong. That is as far as I can go, but we consider that CIE should be able to operate within a subvention of £17 million in the next financial year. There will almost certainly be an application for an increase in rates and fares during that time which will help towards balancing their books.

Question put and agreed to.
Sections 4 to 6, inclusive, agreed to.
Title agreed to.
Bill reported without recommendation, received for final consideration and ordered to be returned to the Dáil.
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