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Seanad Éireann debate -
Friday, 23 May 1975

Vol. 81 No. 4

Social Welfare (Pay-Related Benefit) Bill, 1975: Second Stage.

Question proposed: "That the Bill be now read a Second time."

This Bill is designed to extend the period of payment of pay-related benefit from six to nine months. The Bill also empowers the Minister for Social Welfare, with the consent of the Minister for Finance, to extend by Order the duration of payment for a further period not exceeding three months.

The proposals in the Bill represent a further advance in the social programme of the Government and are in line with the general trend of development which is desirable in our social welfare provisions. The extension of the existing pay-related scheme is important in itself and the decision of the Government to bring forward these proposals after the first year of operation of the scheme is a reflection of their satisfaction with its general effectiveness.

The Bill contains provisions of a somewhat technical nature which amend existing legislation in relation to pay-related benefit and may on that account be difficult to follow. The explanatory memorandum circulated with the Bill is aimed at clarifying these provisions and I hope that Senators will have been helped by it in their examination of the proposals.

I have previously given details of the pay-related benefit scheme but I will take this opportunity, for the information of Senators, to recall briefly the main features of the scheme. The scheme results from the Social Welfare (Pay-Related Benefit) Act, 1973, and was introduced in April, 1974. Pay-related benefit is payable as a supplement to disability benefit, occupational injury benefit (if the claimant is otherwise entitled to disability benefit) and maternity allowance, for up to 24½ weeks of incapacity for work.

It also supplements unemployment benefit for up to 24½ weeks of unemployment. There is a waiting period of two weeks which includes the three waiting days for flat-rate benefit. The maximum period of 24½ weeks of payment thus terminates at the end of 26 weeks of payment of the flat-rate benefit. The weekly rate of pay-related benefit payable is 40 per cent of the amount by which the person's reckonable weekly earnings exceed £14 but do not exceed an upper limit of £50.

The main reason for the introduction of pay-related benefit was, of course, to make better provision against the loss of income suffered by insured persons and their families during periods of sickness or unemployment than could be provided by the system of flat-rate benefits. Although the flat-rate benefits had been regularly improved over the years they were not flexible enough to provide adequately for the different needs of persons who, when working, had not the same levels of earnings and, as a result, had widely differing financial commitments.

When the scheme was introduced, a period of 147 days during which pay-related benefit would be paid was considered appropriate—subject to review in the light of experience—for the purpose of bridging the gap until in the normal course an unemployed or sick worker again resumed employment. It is, of course, true that a spell of disability or illness may last for more than the six-month period covered by the provisions of the original Act.

Equally, the period during which a worker remains unemployed may, unfortunately prove, in many cases, to be longer than that which would normally obtain. Moreover, the date on which pay-related benefit ceases under existing provisions may now coincide for many recipients, with a reduction in the standard rate of unemployment benefit to the reduced rate which may be payable for the second 26 weeks of a period of interruption of employment.

I am extremely concerned by the fact that the substantial fall in cash income which results for persons in the circumstances which I have mentioned may undoubtedly sharply accentuate the difficulties, and indeed hardship, which ensue for the families of very many unemployed workers. To help workers and their families, therefore, to maintain a reasonable standard of living during periods of interruption of employment, I propose to extend by 78 days, from 147 to 225 days, the period during which pay-related benefit may be paid. This extension of the period of payment will of course apply both to periods of unemployment and to periods of incapacity for work.

I must emphasise that this proposal is not intended simply as an emergency measure to meet the current abnormal employment position. It is, as I have said, a logical and necessary development of the social welfare system. I made it clear, in introducing the Estimate for my Department in Dáil Éireann last year, that adjustments to the pay-related scheme would be made as indicated by experience.

I am satisfied that when economic conditions generally become more favourable, there will continue to be a substantial number of cases in which payment of pay-related benefit over the extended period proposed would be necessary to mitigate hardship, for example, in the case of families where the breadwinner suffers a prolonged spell of illness. This proposal and the other proposals in the Bill will come into operation at an early date which will be fixed by Ministerial Order.

As I have indicated earlier, the weekly rate of pay-related benefit payable at present is 40 per cent of the part of a claimant's reckonable weekly earnings which lies between £14 and the upper limit of £50. The rate which will be payable in respect of the proposed additional period of 78 days will be 30 per cent of reckonable earnings between £14 and £50. This will mean an addition of up to £10.80 a week in payments for unemployment and disability during the extended period.

Pay-related benefit is payable only for days for which flat-rate benefit is also payable and may not, at present, be paid beyond the 159th day of unemployment or incapacity for work in a period of interruption of employment. These 159 days include the initial 12 waiting days. At an early stage in the operation of the scheme a difficulty came to light in the case of persons who were suspended from, or disqualified for, the flat-rate benefit for some days in that period. During such suspension or disqualification pay-related benefit would not of course be payable, because flat-rate benefit was not payable. Because of the bar on payment beyond the 159th day of incapacity or unemployment, a person in the circumstances I have outlined could not get the full 147 days of pay-related benefit. To deal with this problem, provision was made in the Social Welfare (No. 2) Act, 1974 that days of incapacity or unemployment in respect of which a person did not receive payment of flat-rate benefit because of suspension or disqualification would not be taken into account. Now that the period of entitlement to pay-related benefit is being extended, similar provision is being made in the Bill in relation to the extended period of entitlement to pay-related benefit.

In providing for an extension of the duration of the period for which pay-related benefit will be payable a particular problem arises in the case of persons whose period of interruption of employment is continuing and who have already exhausted their entitlement to pay-related benefit. I have given special consideration to the possibility of helping such persons. In the absence of a special provision to cater for these cases, a person might receive little or no immediate benefit from the proposed extension of the period of payment. To take an example: immediately before the proposed extension comes into operation, a man may have been unemployed for 230 days. When the extension of the period of payment of pay-related benefit comes into effect pay-related benefit will be payable up to the 237th day of unemployment and the man in question would therefore get pay-related benefit for only 7 days.

To help persons in this or similar types of situation a provision has been included in the Bill the effect of which will be that where a person has been unemployed for not less than 159 days and has received pay-related benefit, he may, if the period of interruption of employment continues on or after the commencement date, receive pay-related benefit for up to 78 days, provided the total number of days of unemployment in the period of interruption of employment does not exceed 315 days, that is, the maximum period, including 3 waiting days, during which a person may be paid flat-rate unemployment benefit. The Bill includes a similar transitional provision to cover days of incapacity for work.

The cost of the pay-related benefit scheme is borne by contributions from employers and employees and the annual cost of extending the period of payment by 78 days as proposed is estimated to be in the region of £1.8 million. At a lower level of unemployment, the cost would, of course, be less. It is expected that the existing contribution income will be sufficient to meet the cost of the improvement and it is not therefore proposed to increase the existing contribution rate.

The Bill also includes a provision to empower the Minister for Social Welfare, with the consent of the Minister for Finance, to extend by order the duration of pay-related benefit for a further period not exceeding 78 days, and to determine the weekly rate at which pay-related benefit may be paid in respect of such extended period.

This power will enable the Minister to effect speedily further improvements in the pay-related benefit scheme in the light of experience and in line with social requirements. Thus, the scheme will acquire a most valuable element of flexibility.

The further extension by order of the duration of payment of pay-related benefit is, however, subject to the condition that a person shall not be entitled by virtue of any such order to receive pay-related benefit after the 315th day of unemployment or incapacity for work in any period of interruption of employment. Any such order must be laid before each House of the Oireachtas and may be annulled by either House within the next 21 sitting days.

I have spoken at some length about the technicalities of this Bill and this is of course unavoidable. I want now to turn to a brief consideration of the working of the pay-related benefit scheme. After just one year of operation, it can be stated without fear of contradiction that it has proved to be of great significance for very many families afflicted by the hardship occasioned by the illness or unemployment of the breadwinner.

In the past year we have seen a most difficult economic situation and a continuing high level of unemployment. This has happened in a period of unprecedented inflation, the impact of which is clear and harmful. Beyond all its economic ill-effects inflation tends to make inequalities worse and it bears most harshly on the poor and on the various deprived groups in the community. It can bear in this way on those who are unemployed, and on their families.

The average worker in this country spends what he earns each week on his wife and family, seeking to provide a reasonable standard of living for them. Very few of them are able to put by money week by week, especially in a period of high and continuing inflation. If that worker is hit by unemployment, as so many are now hit in our country, then his family is at once confronted with very severe difficulties. In these circumstances a family may easily go into debt. Over the years I have seen many people unemployed through no fault of their own for prolonged periods. I have seen them, and their families, put into the category of the poverty stricken from the beginning. This poverty could last for a very long time even after re-entering employment while efforts were made to repay debts built up during unemployment.

The pay-related benefit scheme does not give the average unemployed man more that he would get if he were at work but it keeps his head above water. It can keep the family in reasonable comfort during a period of unemployment, up to six months at present and subject to the provisions of this Bill for the longer period proposed. It can also save them from the distress of living in debt for perhaps two or three years after resuming employment, and I have known such cases.

It is the purpose of all income-maintenance payments to cushion a person to the fullest extent possible if he becomes unemployed or ill. I believe that the benefits provided under the pay-related scheme do much to achieve this stated purpose, particularly since the scheme makes good some of the defects of the flat-rate system which represented far too low a proportion of the earnings of those on reasonable good wages. Let me give one or two examples of the working of the pay-related scheme.

I will take the case of a man, his wife and two children, at various levels of reckonable earnings. I should point out that reckonable earnings are at present related to the fiscal year 1973-74. At £20 a week reckonable earnings, which is equivalent to a rate of perhaps £27 today, flat-rate benefit would be £20.80 and no pay-related element would be payable because of the wage-stop which means that the total of flat-rate plus pay-related benefit cannot exceed earnings, unless flat-rate of itself is higher.

At £30 a week reckonable earnings —equivalent to about £39 now—flat-rate would be £20.80 and the total benefit, including pay-related, would be £27.20, or 91 per cent of reckonable earnings. That is about 70 per cent of the current wage level. At £40 a week—equivalent to £51 or thereabout—the total benefit payable, including pay-related, amounts to £31.20. This is equivalent to 78 per cent of reckonable earnings or 61 per cent of the current wage level. At £50 a week—equivalent to £63 now—the total benefit figure, including pay-related amounts to £35.20. The percentage equivalent amounts to 70 per cent of reckonable earnings or 56 per cent of the present wage figure.

It should be remembered that the average weekly earnings figure for male workers in manufacturing industries in the September quarter of 1974 was in excess of £43 a week. This figure will have been raised to at least £49 at present, through the working of national wage agreements.

I believe that these few examples show that the scheme has proved to be a real support for many families which would have been in serious distress in the past year and that this fact is its justification. The introduction last year of the pay-related benefit scheme was a significant development in our social welfare code. It represented this country's first undertaking in the field of pay-related benefits, which are an established and internationally-accepted feature of highly developed social security systems.

As Senators are aware, the Government have decided to publish a discussion document on pensions which will indicate the various issues connected with the introduction of a national income-related pension scheme. This may be seen as a logical and highly-desirable direction in which to extend the application of the pay-related principle.

When speaking in this House on the Second Stage of the Social Welfare Bill, 1975, I referred to some aspects of the financing of our social services. I wish to say a few further words today on this matter.

Total expenditure this year on social welfare and health will amount to more than £500 million, of which the Exchequer will provide approximately £380 million from general taxation. Expenditure has increased by well over 100 per cent since 1973. While this represents significant expansion and improvement in the social services, there can be no doubt that the question of financing now raises a number of important issues.

It is necessary to ensure that the best return in terms of real social service is obtained for such high and increasing levels of public expenditure. There is a need to keep all schemes and every category of welfare payment under review to guarantee that they are meeting their stated objectives. We must take the necessary steps to direct scarce funds to areas of real need and to the relief and eradication of particular, hardcore problems. We must look critically at the effects of what we are doing, a task which calls for planned research.

Those who ultimately foot the bill have a very real interest in the question of the effectiveness of the system and, particularly, in the method of financing.

I am concerned to see that research in relation to social welfare should be directed to practical goals and that it should make a contribution to policy review and evolution. The establishment of the research and development section within my Department will provide a focus for such work and for appropriate contact with the various institutions of social and economic research.

I am pleased that the research element of the work programme of the national committee on pilot schemes to combat poverty will place a considerable emphasis on the adequacy and effectiveness of various aspects of our social services. This programme will contribute in a most practical manner to the effectiveness of policy in the future.

I have referred on more than one occasion to the inherent difficulties which arise from the traditional methods of financing the social services in this country. By far the greatest proportion of this finance is derived from the Exchequer. Only Denmark of the EEC Member states has a higher proportion of state financing.

In this country a high proportion of public finance arises from indirect taxation which, of its nature, tends to be regressive. In the case of employer and employee contributions, the great bulk is in the form of flat-rate weekly payments. Such payments can constitute a significant burden in the case of lower-paid workers, and I am aware of the particular situation of women workers whose average earnings are lower than those of men and who traditionally pay a stamp contribution only a few pence below that for a man.

As Senators are aware, the Tánaiste has initiated a fundamental review of all aspects of the financing of the social services in relation to both health and social welfare. I am hopeful that it will soon prove possible to bring about a more equitable and rational approach to this central aspect of the system. What must be stressed is the need to bring about changes which respond both to the needs of those who must pay and to the needs of those who will benefit from the whole range of services. This is a matter for planning, and not for hasty or ad hoc decision.

In considering an extension of the pay-related benefit scheme, the question of the working of the pay-related contribution principle must arise. This approach is clearly more equitable and progressive than flat-rate contribution. Its extension to other areas of the system, including pensions, would give rise to consideration of matters such as its relationship to benefits for the lower paid, the fixing of appropriate contribution ceilings and the special problems of those who are not covered by the PAYE tax collection system.

I have referred on other occasions to certain criticisms of the pay-related benefit scheme. I do not intend to add to my previous comments on the prevalence of ill-informed criticism claiming that benefits are too generous. Suffice it to say that such generalised contentions have not been proved to be of substance in any significant number of cases. It is most unfortunate that attempts to promote a particular interest should be made in such a way as to reflect on many decent men and women who are in receipt of benefits which are their right.

The proposals in this Bill will strengthen and bring to a higher stage of development the scheme which commenced last year and I am pleased to recommend the Bill for the favourable consideration of Seanad Éireann.

The Bill in itself is one that in the present economic and social circumstances is required to alleviate the very serious unemployment position that has developed and has unfortunately been maintained by reason of the tardiness of the Government in facing up to the challenge posed by an inflationary situation that was obviously generating 12 months ago and is not admitted to be our main social problem. In that context and to use the Parliamentary Secretary's own phrase, there is a need for families to keep their heads above water in respect of continuing unemployment. For that reason there can be no objection to the extension from six to nine months of the pay-related benefit scheme originally introduced in legislation by the previous Government, a scheme that is just in that it enables workers during a period of transition from one employment to another, during a period of unemployment, to maintain at least a measure of the standard of living to which they have been accustomed.

There is no objection to that. My real objection is to the effect that in the extended three months the Minister, the Parliamentary Secretary and the Government have seen fit to reduce from 40 per cent to 30 per cent the benefit accruing to the unemployed person. That seems odd in the context of inflation running at the rate of 25 per cent per annum at the minimum. Indeed, if one was to take the 8 per cent increase in inflation for the first three months of the year one could argue that the inflation might be in the order of 32 per cent. It is not only odd but inherently contradictory if there is going to be an extension of pay-related benefit not just, as the Parliamentary Secretary said, as an emergency measure, but written in statutory form—and one can visualise inflation of one form or another continuing, hopefully not at the present rate, but continuing in the years ahead —that the extra three-month period should be reduced from 40 per cent to 30 per cent. It raises the question as to the state of the fund. The Parliamentary Secretary, under pressure in the Dáil, said that there was a surplus in the fund as of 31st March this year of £7 million. If that is the case and if one has to by reason of the critical unemployment situation increase the period of pay-related benefit from six to nine months and if there is a surplus of £7 million in the fund at present, then why not maintain the rate for the extra three months?

It would be a different matter if this was a question of ministerial order where it could be varied, but we are writing this into the Statute Book. We are writing into the Bill specifically that after six months pay-related benefit, there will be a reduction from 40 per cent to 30 per cent in income as far as the worker at various rates is concerned. I appreciate that the Minister may by order then extend the period for a further three months, but written into this Bill before us there is a reduction in benefit from six to nine months, in a period in which inflation is running from 25 to 32 per cent, a period in which everything else is going up and it is proposed the benefit should go down.

If the fund is in surplus to the extent that he mentioned, then why not do the right thing the whole way, if it has to be done in our present critical situation, and maintain the 40 per cent over the nine months rather than reduce it from 40 per cent to 30 per cent for the last three months of the nine? It seems retrograde and to be flying in the face of the basic inflationary situation in which we find ourselves.

That brings me to the inflationary situation which has been let get out of hand and is the cause of the necessity for the Parliamentary Secretary to be in the House at present. It is now quite clear to everyone that inflation equals unemployment. It is a simple equation and because the Government have let the galloping horse of inflation out the stable door and without any jockey on its back then we have the present unemployment situation. It is a basic fundamental equation. Inflation equals unemployment, and there is no point in coming up here with gimmicks such as breaking the link with sterling. That is no answer in a critical economic and financial situation. We can certainly discuss revaluation or devaluation or breaking the link with sterling or linking ourselves with another currency in a time of economic and financial stability and in a time of economic expansion. That is the time to discuss a fundamental matter of that kind, but when one throws a matter of that serious nature into a highly inflationary situation and high unemployment, then it is merely talking through one's hat. If we broke the links with sterling to deal with our present inflationary situation or adopted any measure of that kind, we would have to impose far more severe restraints and disciplines if we were to link with any other currency in the world than are being imposed by the present Government and that are consequent upon our relation with sterling. I mention that as a passing comment and I thank the Chair for the indulgence——

The Chair thanks the Senator for passing from the point.

It emphasises the point I am making here. One does not just produce gimmicks to deal with the critical economic situation. I appreciate that what the Parliamentary Secretary is bringing in here will ameliorate the situation in practical human terms for people who have been put into a situation of unemployment because of the Government's policy and the Government's ignoring the inflationary situation by reason of their incapacity to face up to the problem 12 months ago and their failure to take the unpopular decision then that would put us now in a situation where we would not have so many people unemployed.

These are basic facts which we have discussed in various economic debates here. I would ask the Parliamentary Secretary to refer to some rather alarming figures that have emerged recently and indeed of which he makes some mention in his opening speech. He refers, and rightly so, to the over-reliance of our present social welfare systems on the Exchequer. Approximately £180 million of the £500 million spent on social welfare and health comes from general taxation. Is the Parliamentary Secretary aware that Exchequer returns as of now are £73 million lower than the corresponding time last year?

It is £82 million.

Senator Yeats says it is up £82 million. My last figure was £73 million. It is £82 million. That makes it worse. In other words, we are regressing not progressing in respect of Exchequer intake. If we have an Exchequer intake that is now running at £82 million less now than this time last year, then I should like to know, what exactly, apart from this stopgap measure, the future situation in regard to our social welfare services generally.

Is the Senator suggesting a cut-back in social welfare?

No. I am asking the Parliamentary Secretary to tell me how he proposes to look at the logical necessity to increase our social welfare payments in the months and years ahead in the context of a situation where Exchequer returns are diminishing now and our receipts from Exchequer taxation are now running at £82 million less than this time last year, and I quote from the Parliamentary Secretary's opening statement:

The Exchequer is providing £380 million from general taxation.

General taxation is of course Exchequer receipts.

The Parliamentary Secretary goes on to say:

There can be no doubt that the question of financing now raises a number of important issues.

I also said that this is a matter for planning not for hasty or ad hoc decisions. That could also apply to contributions.

Indeed I was going to compliment the Parliamentary Secretary by referring to that paragraph and saying that this whole aspect requires very real and positive planning, not ad hoc interruptions or ad hoc contributions from Senators such as Senator Higgins.

Or ad hoc Bills.

Or ad hoc Bills, as I have just been reminded. We must look at this in a cool manner. Let us not get hasty about it. The fact of the matter is that the Minister and the Parliamentary Secretary are concerned about the fact that the fund is becoming over-reliant on Exchequer contributions, that is, Exchequer returns are now running at the rate of £82 million less in Exchequer receipts compared to this time last year. The Parliamentary Secretary is rightly concerned about the fact that the fund is dependent on an Exchequer with diminishing returns.

The planning which the Parliamentary Secretary suggests, and for which I compliment him, should be put into effect as quickly as possible. Apart from social welfare being over-reliant on the Exchequer, there is another aspect in regard to social welfare financing, which again rightly concerns the Parliamentary Secretary and to which he referred, that is, that a very high proportion of public financing generally comes from indirect taxation and tends to be regress by reason of that, and the system of flat rate contributions from employer and employee for pay-related benefits is particularly regressive. In other words you have equal payments right across the board from employer and employee irrespective of capacity to pay, and the Parliamentary Secretary rightly states, and again I quote:

In the case of employer and employee contributions, the great bulk is in the form of flat rate weekly payments. Such payments can constitute a significant burden in the case of lower paid workers.

He goes on to refer, in particular, to the situation of women workers. There is no question about it that the flat rate contribution system is completely inequitable in our circumstances and that if you are going to have pay-related benefit, the logical thing is to plan towards pay-related contributions. Forgive me if this appears to be said here in an ad hoc manner, but in my view it is very obvious and indeed formed part of our discussion when I was a member of a Government that introduced the first pay-related scheme here.

One of the most important aspects to which we addressed our minds at that time—and one does not want a think tank or any marvellous investigations to see the justice of this—was that if there are to be pay-related benefits you should have also pay-related contributions. While there may be practical administrative difficulties involved, this approach, as the Parliamentary Secretary rightly says, is clearly more progressive than flat rate contributions. I do not see why there is a necessity for any further long-term investigation into the introduction of pay-related contributions side by side with pay-related benefits. This aspect was fully discussed and understood when we introduced this pay-related scheme in 1972 and I fail to see the reason for the delay in introducing such a scheme. The present flat rate contribution system is blatantly unjust, inequitable and does not stand up. Once the principle is accepted it is a question of giving a directive and letting the administration come up with the proposals for providing for pay-related contributions.

It is important in this situation that we do something such as is proposed in this Bill for the numbers who are unemployed. There is no question about that, but of very serious concern is the ability of the Government on the economic side. Social planning is excellent as long as one has economic expansion. Economic expansion means rising and expanding social development running parallel with it. In the present situation where we have unemployment continuing at a high level it is quite clear the Minister and the Parliamentary Secretary can do no more than come in here with ad hoc, stop-gap measures of this kind designed to deal with an emergency situation and not even deal adequately with it, as I mentioned earlier on. It is because the Government have failed to tackle the root of the problem, which is inflation, have failed to come up with a plan for employment by giving the required incentives such as bringing in disincentive taxation proposals, have failed to stimulate the economy, that we are faced with the necessity for these emergency measures.

In so far as it is dealing with the problem the Bill is welcome. In so far as no effort is being made to get to the root of the problem, which is the Government's fiscal, financial and economic policies, then we must deplore the situation. We must go back to the thinking that economic development and expansion and incentives to stimulate the economy are all-important if we are going to have a progressive social charter for all the less well-off people and for everybody who is unfortunate in his or her passage through life. We cannot have a comprehensive social charter that will guarantee complete equality not just in regard to benefits in the limited sense under social welfare but also in regard to health and education; we cannot have such a charter ensuring that people, from birth to death, are adequately catered for in every respect, unless we get our priorities right. Our priorities at present must be to get the economic machine moving again to create the situation where the cake gets bigger and out of that cake we can give to all our people equal and fair redistribution.

If we are to have a situation where we kill incentive by taxation proposals, where there is no encouragement to invest and to work, if we are to have a policy of unemployment rather than employment, we will see much more of the Parliamentary Secretary to the Minister for Social Welfare. I am sorry that that is the situation. Obviously one cannot do anything in the present economic climate except introduce stop-gap measures of that kind. We should have proper social planning, the need for which the Parliamentary Secretary pays some lip service to here in the course of his contribution. I agree fully with that. This sort of comprehensive social planning which would provide for the greatest equality of opportunity we can get, and which I would envisage as being appropriate in any civilised community, but is just not possible until we get the economic machine moving again.

While the Bill itself, is needed to ameliorate the disastrous situation in which unemployed people find themselves, it is a symptomatic of the total economic and financial mess in which we find ourselves and of the total bankruptcy of ideas which exists in the present Government. What we are getting here is just staving off the evil day. It is, as the Parliamentary Secretary said, enabling people to keep their heads above water for another three months at a reduced rate in an inflationary period. It does nothing more than that. For that morsel we are thankful, but it in no way represents either a comprehensive approach towards the economic situation or towards the social welfare development to which the Parliamentary Secretary, according to what he has said on this Bill aspires.

We want action from the Government, a bit of positive thinking and planning ahead both in the social and economic areas, rather than just stop-gap measures that are welcome in themselves but do not really go to the root of our economic and social problems.

I think that all the Members of the House will be very grateful for that extremely honest speech of Senator Lenihan. It is probably the cleverest articulation I have heard in a long time of a certain philosophy, which I happen to regard as a dangerous one and which up to now has remained hidden. He used a number of images which are extremely important, and I think that his last one was the best. He spoke of the Minister's Bill as a morsel. Yet earlier on, being consistent in his images he had spoken of the national cake. He told us in stark terms that a person can have the social welfare code when the economy can afford it. He has put it into the record that we will have a social welfare code when the economy is in expansion. He is a very honest man and is primarily committed to the private enterprise economy. He is saying that we will allow people like the Parliamentary Secretary to develop what he referred to as a social welfare charter. When profits have been generated it is people like the Senator who should be referring to their contributions as offering morsels. That has been the approach of traditional economics, to offer crumbs to those who created the real wealth of this country. It is the classic private enterprise, capitalist viewpoint. As I said, the House should be extremely grateful to Senator Lenihan for stating it. At least we know now where we stand.

We should be grateful too, to the Parliamentary Secretary to the Minister for Social Welfare for stating the completely opposite viewpoint. He has said in his speech in the Dáil and in his speech here this morning that he regards the receipt of benefits a matter of right that is not negotiable across the table of private enterprise profit. In that he is correct. It is quite pointless for many of us in this House to be pretending that you can reconcile those viewpoints. You cannot. You must come down on the side of investment profit maximisation, on the one hand, or on the side of people being accorded their rights, on the other hand. The Parliamentary Secretary has quite correctly chosen the second opinion, and I am glad he has done so.

Senator Lenihan made a number of extremely important points. He suggested that the Bill was a stop-gap measure and had to be considered in the general context of economic planning and the relationship of the structure of the economy to the social welfare services. I respond to the invitation contained in his speech. I believe that social values and objectives must always precede economic decisions. That is the policy of the party of which the Parliamentary Secretary and I are members. We are committed to using the economy, in the short-term, to alleviate the immediate distress of the most vulnerable categories of the population. We are, over a longer period, committed to ensuring equality of participation in all aspects of life to all members of the nation. The party to which Senator Lenihan belongs are committed to allowing people to participate when profits have first been assured. The difference is a clear one. The House has benefitted greatly by this fine clarification.

Senator Lenihan referred to the discussion on the sterling link as a gimmick. The relationship with the £ sterling, the idea, for example, of floating the Irish pound—or more accurately, as it has been proposed on the Order Paper, of establishing a commission to discuss that matter— is not a gimmick. It is something that is urgent: it should be discussed. There was an ugly side to the speech also. Not only were we told that the only way of expanding the social welfare expenditure was by expanding the national cake but we were told that it was dangerous to go for increased social welfare expenditure at a time when increased State revenue could not be guaranteed. And, of course, this is dangerous thinking also. It is not dangerous thinking if one is committed towards elevating the position of those in the vulnerable categories.

Remember what the Minister for Social Welfare inherited. I recall very well the Kilkenny report on poverty: I have referred to this on many occasions. It is a great reflection on all of us to belong to a society that had sent one family in four and one child in five to bed in conditions of relative poverty. By relative poverty I mean an income of something under £800 per annum. This is the situation the Minister inherited. Therefore, the Minister had to make a decision. What was he to do? Was one to allow this drift to continue and as the economy galloped along to drop off more crumbs to an ever-increasing mass of the poor? The numbers of the poor were increasing —widows, people on low incomes and people with large families.

The Minister decided to separate the project of eliminating poverty from economic expansion, as it was conceived up to that time. He is right, at a time of present difficulties, to hold fast to that decision. He is honouring the position of his Party in the short term. It is the position of our Party ultimately to remove the great sources of inequality and, in the short term, to eliminate distress. Therefore, any suggestion that we can afford measures, when the economy is going again, are simply "not on". We may all have to suffer to some extent if we are to raise the standard of the people who are in the worst categories of poverty. I invite the Members on the other side of the House to be just as willing to share that experience as the people on this side of the House.

The Minister, in the other House, said that he was anxious that this legislation would come into effect as quickly as possible because it affects people in real need. At this stage I should like to pay tribute to the Minister for drawing attention to the necessity for establishing monitoring groups on the poverty action programme. This is a matter of extreme importance. I do not mean monitoring it with a view to cutting back on our attack on poverty at some stage but with a view to assessing the adequacy of our strategy. Poverty programmes, generally, have a number of stages. One first assesses the extent of poverty; then one develops a strategy and then one implements it. It is necessary, as has been the experience of other countries, that we should establish research groups to monitor performance. The Minister in the third paragraph on page 10 of his speech, adverts to this when he mentions the importance of the research element of the work programme of the National Commission pilot schemes to combat poverty.

I am very grateful to the Minister and to the Parliamentary Secretary for adverting to another important point. That is the great danger there is at present of attacking those who are in receipt of benefits to which they are entitled as a matter of right. This can be done very insidiously: it can be done very blatantly. It can be done insidiously by those who make speeches of the following kind: "The economy is in a terrible state; yet the social welfare bill is so high" leaving unsaid the obvious conclusion—how dare you expand the social welfare services at a time of economic difficulty?

There are the people who come out in the open and suggest that benefits are too high, as they have done in Galway City, even chambers of commerce. An individual counsellor said that it is now more profitable for people to draw benefits than to work. That kind of comment needs to be nailed at the very beginning. Anybody who is drawing benefit, as the Minister points out, is drawing it as a matter of right.

I refer to that section of the Minister's speech in the other House where he sensitively describes this kind of smear. In referring to comments made by Deputy Meaney in the Dáil, I am quoting from column 1971, Volume 280, of the Official Report of 14th May, 1975. On that occasion the Parliamentary Secretary said:

I cannot understand how people can welcome a Bill and at the same time object, in the terms in which Deputy Meaney objected, to those payments being made to people who would be better off working. Of course they would. Nobody would more prefer to be working than they would. If a man is unfortunate enough to be unemployed or to suffer from a prolonged illness he is not, in my opinion, the recipient of a handout....

Further on in the paragraph he says:

He is entitled as of right to get sufficient benefit to provide in a reasonable way for his wife and his children during those periods that quite a large number of working men suffer during the course of their working lives.

This kind of talk and loose generalisation does a lot of damage. One might be annoyed at outside people, who in some cases are described in very loose terms as leading industrialists who make general statements and when they are asked to be more specific, back away. If they quote figures, on examination the figures are found to be inaccurate. While that is regrettable it is far more regrettable that Opposition Members of the House are apparently insinuating the same things. They have an opportunity of readily examining how the scheme works. They know that built into the operation of the scheme it is not possible, except in highly selective, isolated instances, for a person to get more money when unemployed that he would when employed. The only instance which comes to mind is the case of a husband, wife and two children.

If that man is earning £20 a week and becomes unemployed he gets £20.80 from social welfare. I do not regard that as a reflection on the operation of the social welfare system. I regard it as a reflection on some of the employers we have in Ireland who will ask a man to work for £20 a week. That is where the examination should take place, not within the social welfare system. That is where the criticism should be directed and not towards the social welfare system.

We have had a clear confrontation: social welfare as a residue of a profit-motivated economy from that side of the House and, in the Minister's speech, the defence of a right of those who receive benefits to receive them as a matter of right and to receive them quickly.

We welcome this Bill and will be happy to assist its passage through the House. We regret that this Bill appears to be the only measure that has stemmed from this present Coalition Government to deal with the problem of unemployment. Senator Higgins in his speech gave a variety of views which he claimed he held and, more particularly, he claimed that we on this side of the House held. He claimed that Senator Lenihan said in the course of his speech: "You can have your social welfare code when the nation can afford it." I do not think that is how Senator Lenihan put the point.

There is a point here that members of the Labour Party would be well advised to appreciate. The way in which the budget for 1975 is working out shows very clearly the folly of trying to spend money when it is not there. As Senator Lenihan pointed out the deficit today on this year's budget up to May 9th is £82 million higher than the equivalent deficit for the corresponding period last year. If the situation continues, as seems likely, we would appear to be faced either with a very grave monetary crisis amounting almost to national bankruptcy or else, within the very near future, some form of supplementary budget. It is quite clear from the way in which the budgetary figures have been going that something of this kind will happen.

To say that you can have a social welfare code when the nation can afford it is merely a way of saying that no Government can indefinitely continue spending money unless the country is in a position to produce that money. Governments do not spend their own money. It is not a case of Ministers handing out large cheques out of their own pockets. Governments can only spend money in so far as they can get it ultimately from the pockets of the taxpayers who include workers and even members of the Labour Party.

Senator Higgins made a remarkable statement: "Social considerations must always precede economic factors". I should have thought a better way of putting it would be: social considerations must always be dependent on economic factors. It is easy for the Government to claim to have a social conscience. A social conscience is much better expressed by putting people to work than by carrying out policies which put people out of work and then introducing Bills such as this in order to pay them part of their ordinary wage while they are out of work. In Fianna Fáil we have always held that we have a social conscience. The workers of the country have accepted this fact at election times by voting for us in much larger numbers than for any other party, including the Labour Party. It was social conscience that was reflected in an anxiety to see that our own people were able to find adequately paid work at home.

When this Government came into office we had a situation such that while unemployment was clearly far higher than we liked to see it, nonetheless it was considerably lower than it is today. For the first time in well over a hundred years we had reached the situation where emigration had declined to nothing.

We have 103,000 people unemployed. We have long-established factories closing day after day. Inflation in the last three months was equivalent to an annual rate of some 36 per cent. Allowing for some slackening in this appalling rate of 8 per cent in three months which would be equivalent to around 36 per cent per year I think it would be generally accepted that we would be very fortunate this year if we achieved an inflation rate of only 25 per cent. In any previous year a figure like this would have been looked on as a national disaster.

We have a Government, which apart from making speeches prophesying doom and disaster, take no action to deal with the situation. We have Ministers, from the Minister for Finance downwards, making it clear as the months go by that they are hoping against hope that other countries will take the necessary measures to deal with the inflation situation, the unemployment situation, the balance of payments problems, in order that world conditions and European conditions will improve to such an extent that it will be reflected in our own economic problems. They hope to be able to avoid taking measures which will be politically unpopular and that other people elsewhere will take these measures and that it will be reflected here automatically.

This Bill comes as the only contribution to the problem of the unemployed. It has been rushed before the Oireachtas in order to pay some little extra to those who have been unemployed for six months or longer. One would like to think that it was merely the social conscience of the Government at work: one fears, on the contrary that it was the political awareness of the Government that lies behind this Bill.

The Parliamentary Secretary in his opening speech said it would cost £1.8 million this year. How many people will be covered by this sum? How many workers will be getting additional benefits under this Bill? Why is it necessary under section 3 to reduce still further the income of these unfortunates who have been out of work for six months or longer? Why is it necessary to cut the rates to be paid under this scheme from 40 per cent to 30 per cent?

It is difficult to understand the reasoning behind this proposal. Clearly the people concerned, who have been out of work for six months or longer, are in a position that any small savings they may have had have been exhausted. They have to rely entirely on their social welfare payments. They may have run into a certain amount of debt. After six months they would need an increase rather than suffer a decrease. Yet their payments are being reduced from 40 per cent to 30 per cent.

One could understand this action being taken, even if one did not approve of it, if it was because of a shortage of money or because the funds of the pay-related benefit fund were such that it was impossible, without some further increase in taxation, to make these payments. The Parliamentary Secretary in his speech states:

It is expected that the existing contribution income will be sufficient to meet the cost of the improvement and it is not therefore proposed to increase the existing contribution rate.

In other words, these increased sums provided for in the Bill, the 30 per cent, would not involve any increase in the contribution. Equally, they will not involve any fall in the existing fund. If, as the Minister, after many questions were put to him, unwillingly told the Dáil there is a surplus in the fund at present of no less than £7 million and if the Parliamentary Secretary is correct in his opening statement this £7 million surplus will not be decreased by the passing of this Bill, it is impossible to conceive why it has been decided in section 3 to reduce payments from 40 per cent to 30 per cent. Even if to maintain the 40 per cent were to mean some marginal drop in this large surplus of £7 million, it would be entirely justified. Obviously statements will again be made on the Committee Stage but for the present I shall confine myself to saying that it seems an outrageous measure and totally unjustified by the financial position of the fund.

It is especially so in view of the fact that it must be linked with the normal cut in unemployment benefit which takes place after six months. A worker unemployed for six months has incurred debts and any assets he may have had have long since been dissipated. After six months he will get a cut in the basic rate of benefit and on top of that, under the provisions of this Bill, for no financial reason that one can divine, his benefit will be cut from 40 per cent to 30 per cent.

The Parliamentary Secretary has pointed out that the average industrial wage at present is £43 per week. Taking the figures which the Parliamentary Secretary gave in his introductory speech and making allowance for the effects of inflation in the six months during which the workers covered by this Bill have been out of work, the proportion of the normal income of a worker with a wife and two children would be about 60 per cent; he has taken a cut of about 40 per cent anyway. His payment is being reduced still further because I presume, the effect of this legislation will be to cut his payment from 60 per cent of normal to about 50 per cent. This seems totally unjustified and it does not in any sense accord with the type of social conscience which our Labour colleagues proclaim the present Government have.

Apart from that aspect and one or two others which I shall raise on Committee Stage, we on this side of the House welcome the Bill.

I welcome an opportunity of making some remarks on this Bill. It is tragic that the Government have found it necessary to introduce such a Bill at a time when there are thousands of people unemployed who otherwise, instead of joining dole queues, would be making their contribution to the building of the economy. Those people are frustrated and uneasy at the present time. The object of this Bill would appear to be the easing of tensions under which the unemployed must live at present.

Senator Higgins, spoke about the right to work: we all agree on this right. At the time of creation, God said man had the right to earn his bread. Therefore the Government should make more positive efforts to create jobs and reduce the unemployment figures. It is the duty of the Government to look after the weaker sections of the community. I agree that this Bill is introduced for that purpose but it is only a stop-gap measure aimed at supplementing the benefit of the unemployed. That is not enough: workers today need assurances for the future.

We must try to imagine what the thinking of the unemployed person is at present. He lives in a state of frustration; he looks to the Government for guidance and leadership. This Bill is not the answer to his serious plight.

Senator Higgins devoted much of his speech to an attack on Senator Lenihan. He did not spell out the alternatives not did he give any assurances to the unemployed as to what their position might be in future. Therefore, while this Bill will be welcomed by the unemployed, it is not adequate to restore confidence to a section of the community which has done so much to build up the economy. Workers, by their skills and efforts, have contributed in no small measure to the economy.

In 1973, we had a very stable economy. It was stated that social welfare benefits were inadequate then but they were sufficient at that time because of the low rate of unemployment, because the cost of living was held in check and because we had not the galloping inflation we are experiencing now. A great many things have happened in those two years. The value of the £ has continued to fall and the rate of inflation has increased significantly. People wonder where it will all end. Will the £ have any value in future? Will the pay-related benefits which the worker receives each weeek enable him and his family to exist. Something more positive is needed at present. It is the duty of the Government to wake up to their responsibilities and ensure that the economy is put on an even keel with the creation of more jobs so that we can have a declaration of confidence again.

The workers in no uncertain manner have contributed greatly to the improvement of our economy over the years. Therefore, they should be given an opportunity to play their full part as Irishmen in the rebuilding of this nation.

It will take years to get the economy back to where it was in 1973 because we are caught up in galloping inflation, which is not being checked. No effort is being made to curb price increases. There is no good blaming outside sources for all our ills. Positive and real measures are needed to get these people off the dole queues, back into employment and to ensure that there will be no need for any further extension of pay-related benefit. This is only a stop gap measure, a temporary arrangement to stave off the evil day. It is the duty of the Government, who are responsible for the running of our economy, and for our national housekeeping, to ensure that no effort is spared to get those people off the dole queues.

I welcome the measure as a temporary solution to the serious problems which confront the thousands of people who are unemployed. I hope that the Parliamentary Secretary has something more to offer them than this temporary measure which will extend pay-related benefits, because that is not the answer to our real problems. As I said, the answer to the real problem is getting people back to work and allowing them to play their part in rebuilding the economy.

I congratulate the Parliamentary Secretary on the introduction of these extended proposals for the payment of pay-related benefits to our insured community. Unlike Senator Keegan, I would not look on it as a temporary measure. For many years the trade union and Labour movement have been calling out for the introduction of pay-related benefit. This does not relate only to unemployment, it also covers a substantial number of our insured working population who become ill or are injured in their employment. This was the idea behind the 1974 Act and for far too long has been delayed. The extension is very welcome. The vicious criticisms we have heard on this Bill came from those who never suffered unemployment or deprivation themselves. I congratulate the Minister and hope this will not be of a temporary nature but will be a permanent feature of our social welfare structure.

I regret that there are no Fianna Fáil Senators here at the moment, particularly those who have contributed so far to this debate, as I would like to reply to some of the issues raised. I have always found it difficult, and particularly since coming into the Department of Social Welfare, to understand the neglect over a long period in that field. This morning's contributions by some Fianna Fáil Senators have given me a better insight into why that neglect went on for so long. They referred to this as an ad hoc, an emergency measure, and a temporary measure, because of the large numbers unemployed at the moment, although even that in my view is somewhat distorted. This Bill, as I stated in my opening remarks, is not a temporary measure. It is a planned extension of the social welfare code, as this Government see that code. It is designed towards the stated goal of this Government to achieve a fully comprehensive social welfare system.

When Deputy Lenihan made his contribution I was somewhat taken aback by his approach. Frankly I had always regarded Senator Lenihan in the context of Fianna Fáil as a reasonably liberal young man, with reasonably liberal views, but after listening to his contribution I can only come to the conclusion that his political associates at the European level have not done anything to extend any liberal views he may have had. Senator Lenihan's view was summed up when he spoke about the national cake.

Under the administration of which Senator Lenihan was a very prominent Minister, their main preoccupation was not the size of the national cake but how that cake was divided. Under that administration, the size of the slice of the cake for the people we are discussing here today—the recipients of unemployment or sick benefit—was very very small indeed. We agree, of course, that it is in the interests of all citizens that the size of the cake should be as big as possible. We are equally concerned as to how that cake is divided. In my view the slices for the poorer sections of the community have been considerably larger since March, 1973, than they were in previous years.

When speakers referred to this as an emergency measure, I do not think they have taken into consideration that this does not only apply to the unemployed; it applies to people in receipt of disability benefit and maternity benefit. The percentage paid of pay-related benefit in respect of disability is 47 per cent. There would not seem to be any objection—and I noticed this in the other House as well—to people being unemployed as far as Fianna Fáil are concerned as long as it brings immediate economic hardship and difficulties to the unemployed or sick worker. Their philosophy seems to be that workers must have this incentive. If they cannot obtain work or if they cannot work because they are ill, it is necessary that there must be this incentive of hardship and want immediately visited upon the home of that worker.

Is the Parliamentary Secretary suggesting we said that?

I am suggesting that that is the philosophy of the Fianna Fáil Party.

Has anyone said anything remotely like that?

The Parliamentary Secretary is adopting the attitude of the Minister for Posts and Telegraphs.

An Leas-Chathaoirleach

The Parliamentary Secretary, without interruption.

Both Senators made their contributions and I am entitled to reply.

The Parliamentary Secretary cannot reply to what I said because he was not here.

I will not comment on that. They then attempt to——

Who are they?

Senator Lenihan, for one. They attempt to distort the purpose of this Bill by presenting it to the people as a reduction in the rate of social welfare.

That is a fact.

This Bill extends the period of eligibility for payment by 50 per cent. We have heard that Fianna Fáil introduced the pay-related scheme, in 1972. They introduced many schemes but they did not administer them. They did not administer this scheme. When they introduced it they cut off eligibility for pay-related benefit after 24½ weeks. This Bill is continuing the period of eligibility for a further three months, a 50 per cent increase.

Fianna Fáil speakers have suddenly become extremely liberal in the benefits they would give to workers who are either unemployed or sick. The workers are as conscious as I am that Fianna Fáil had 30-odd years to put their liberal expressions of generosity into practice, but they did not do it. This Bill, apart from extending the eligibility period for three months, gives to workers who are unemployed either through unavailability of work or through disability, an increase for that three-month period of up to £10.80 per week. Despite attempts to distort that, that will be clearly seen by the people most interested and concerned —those who will receive the extended benefits provided in the Bill.

When I try to find an answer to the neglect in the social welfare field over the years and reflect on the contributions made by Fianna Fáil speakers, both here and in the Dáil I get the answer that Fianna Fáil see this Bill as a matter of political expediency They cannot get away from that. That is the way they operated social welfare, not as a matter of right or as an approach towards social evils in our society, but as a matter of political expediency. They think the only reason we introduced this Bill was because there are large numbers unemployed at the moment.

We heard from Senator Lenihan his approach to social welfare and the extension of social welfare. In fact, one could ask, from his contribution, if he was prepared even to maintain it at its present level until things became better. We know things have been better, and they have been considerably better, for a certain section of our society. How much better must they get in Senator Lenihan's view, and in the view of some of his colleagues, before we even make a start towards social justice for those people who have not enjoyed the fruits of the boom we hear about under Fianna Fáil. The boom was there for very limited numbers of people, not for the general public——

Who is gaining from the boom?

I am glad the Senator asked that. He also talked about the large numbers unemployed. We have approximately 103,000 workers now unemployed. That is an unacceptable figure.

Thanks to the Parliamentary Secretary and his colleagues.

I am glad to say that I am part of a Government and that I support a Government who regard it as an unacceptable figure and are prepared to do something about it.

What are you doing about it?

When we look at the situation that exists right across Europe, and indeed beyond Europe, we see that there is an economic recession. Very strong economies have suffered. Statistics are there to show that they have suffered even more severely than we have. Their rate of unemployment has grown much higher and much more rapidly than ours. Compare that with the situation from 1945, through the 1940s the 1950s and the 1960s.

I know Senators do not like listening to the truth. I have heard that over and over again. Unfortunately when Senators raise issues they must listen to the replies. There was a boom in all the European countries after the war, with one slight interruption in the middle 1950s. In some countries they had practically full employment, especially all the Scandinavian countries. Other countries had very limited numbers of people unemployed. During that period, under Fianna Fáil we accepted as normal and apparently acceptable to that administration the figure of 65,000 and 70,000 people unemployed, 6 per cent or 7 per cent——

The Parliamentary Secretary is talking——

——plus 30,000 people emigrating annually during that period up to approximately the middle sixties.

What about 1975?

When the Coalition were in office.

The only thing that amazes me about Fianna Fáil is their consistent disregard and underestimation of the ordinary people of this country. They cannot do a simple sum like 70,000 unemployed through the blue years from 1945 to the middle sixties, plus 30,000 emigrating—that gives a total of 100,000 people. They considered the fact that the Irish had to emigrate to find employment was no concern of theirs. The political steam was taken off.

Now that we have had all the talk, what are you going to do about it?

An Leas-Chathaoirleach

The House is getting disorderly. The Parliamentary Secretary to conclude, please.

If he would relate his semantics to the Bill it would be helpful.

office.

And to his period of

At this period there is a general recession. Fianna Fáil were talking about 100,000 people unemployed as if in their time we had full employment. People are not without intelligence, they can do simple arithmetic. People can distinguish between political clap-trap and reality.

Hear, hear.

Naturally, we are concerned about the large numbers unemployed. The figure of 60,000 or 70,000 which was taken as a normal figure for unemployment by the previous administration is not acceptable to this administration. If we have to have unemployment and if we cannot make the strides we would like, because of a number of factors including outside influence, we have an obligation to ensure that, to the best of our ability, unemployed persons and their families are cushioned against the worst economic evils of their situation. This Bill makes a considerable contribution towards that end.

Question put and agreed to.
Business suspended at 12.25 p.m. and resumed at 2.15 p.m.
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