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Seanad Éireann debate -
Wednesday, 4 Feb 1976

Vol. 83 No. 9

Juries Bill, 1975: Second Stage.

Question proposed: "That the Bill be now read a Second Time."

This Bill is intended to restate the statute law relating to juries in civil and criminal trials. The principal Act at present is the Juries Act, 1927, which has been amended by the Juries Acts of 1945 and 1961 and by particular sections of other Acts. These are all proposed for repeal by the Bill, so that in future all the relevant law will be found in one Act except in so far as it is itself later amended.

The Bill proposes to make large changes in the present law. The most important changes concern the persons qualified and liable for jury service, so I shall refer to this matter first. The 1927 Act based liability for jury service on the occupation of landed property of a certain rateable value, differing in different counties. Stated shortly, the rule under the Act was that Irish citizens aged 21 or upwards and under 65 who were entered in the electoral registers and who possessed the rating qualification were alone qualified and liable. Moreover, the Act provided that women should not be liable for jury service unless they themselves applied to serve. The result was that only a small part of the adult population was qualified for jury service. In particular, the rating qualification excluded all men, however well educated, who did not happen to have landed property and the rule as to women had the effect that in practice women hardly ever served on juries. In the ten years up to 1974 only nine women are recorded as having applied to serve and so became qualified to do so, and of these only five were called for service and three actually served. To show how limited have been the classes of persons liable for jury service under the 1927 Act it is of interest to mention that in 1963, the last year for which figures are readily available, the number of persons liable for jury service was just under 84,000.

I shall now refer, briefly, to the procedure under the 1927 Act by which the persons liable for jury service have been identified and selected, because this procedure has depended on the rating qualification. When the officers of the local authorities make up the electoral registers, they mark the names of those liable for jury service with the letter "J". To find out who are liable they cause the rate collectors to make house to house inquiries. Every year the officer prepares a draft jurors list containing the names of the persons considered to be liable for jury service and submits it to the county registrar, who revises and settles the list after holding public revision sessions. When the jurors list is settled, the names of the persons liable are ready for entry in the jurors books, which are made up by county registrars and from which jurors are empanelled as required.

But the jurors books are not made up annually. What happens is this. New jurors books were made up in 1927 containing the names of qualified jurors in alphabetical order. When panels of jurors were required, they had to be taken in strict alphabetical order by a detailed method laid down in the 1927 Act, involving the taking of so many names beginning with the various letters of the alphabet. Each jurors book remained in force till all the persons whose names were included in it had been summoned once for jury service. When a jurors book became exhausted, a new book was made up from the current jurors' lists. The life of a jurors book has varied between three and ten years. The books have been revised annually by deleting the names of persons no longer liable, but persons who become qualified and liable for jury service—for example, by reaching the age of 21—during the life of a jurors book cannot be included in the book and are therefore in fact free from liability to be summoned until a new jurors book has to be made up.

I was of opinion that this restricted system of liability for jury service was unfair and I have been anxious to change it so as to remove the sex and property qualifications. I was strengthened in my views by the reports on jury service on these points made as long ago as 1965 by the Committee on Court Practice and Procedure.

Accordingly I had the preparation of amending legislation put in hand and it was introduced in the Seanad in July of last year. Its preparation and more especially the construction of a system to implement the changes proved long drawn out and quite difficult. The mechanics were worked out by a working party representative of the county registrars, the local authorities and the Departments of Local Government and Justice and I would like to convey my thanks to the people who served on the working party. In the meantime the decision of the Supreme Court was given on 12th December last, in the case of Máirín de Burca and Mary Anderson v. the Attorney General. The court held unanimously that the provision in the 1927 Act restricting liability for jury service to persons with the requisite rateable qualification was contrary to the Constitution and—by a majority of four to one—that the virtual exclusion of women from jury service was also unconstitutional. This decision made the need for the new Bill a matter of urgency.

The main purpose of the Bill is to provide this new system. At the same time the opportunity has been taken to rewrite the existing law and, in doing so, to make a large number of substantial changes which I hope, will considerably improve the law. These changes follow generally recommendations made by the Committee on Court Practice and Procedure under the chairmanship of Mr. Justice Walsh in their second and fourth interim reports entitled Jury Service and Jury Challenges respectively. I should like to pay tribute to the painstaking and valuable work that the committee have done. It is a matter for regret that so much time has elapsed since they reported. The present is only the latest of a number of occasions when a Minister for Justice has had the satisfaction of being able to express in public his thanks to Mr. Justice Walsh and his colleagues for the benefits they have conferred on the legal profession and the public generally by their examination of the difficult problems that have been referred to them.

In the present case it is right to add that, apart from recommendations that they have made on matters of detail relating to juries, the committee in fact anticipated the recent decision of the Supreme Court by recommending that the rating qualification for jurors should be abolished and—by a majority —that the exemption of women should also be abolished. The committee also recommended that in consequence of the abolition of the rating qualification jurors should be empanelled directly from the electoral registers; and this, as I shall mention more fully in a moment, is the method that the Bill proposes. In the preparation of the Bill consideration has also been given to the valuable later report of the English Departmental Committee on Jury Service under the chairmanship of Lord Morris of Borth-y-Gest, which made a number of recommendations. I have also had the advantage of being able to study the recent legislation in Northern Ireland in 1974 and 1975 governing juries.

I have mentioned that the Bill replaces the existing statute law on juries. It seemed to me much more convenient to legislate in this way than to make particular amendments to the 1927 Act and the legislation amending it, especially as a large part of the 1927 Act, in particular, would have in any event to be repealed or amended owing to being inconsistent with the new system.

The result is that the Bill contains a certain amount of detail which at first sight might make it seem unnecessarily long and complicated, especially in the case of a few provisions that consist almost or entirely of repetition of existing provisions. But I feel sure that anybody who takes the trouble to compare the Bill with the 1927 Act and the amending enactments will agree that in the long run it will be a greater benefit to have all the relevant law in one Act. For one thing the 1927 Act goes into a great deal of detail on matters of procedure, such as the precise method of balloting for juries in court. Much of this detail can be left to administrative arrangements and is therefore not repeated in the Bill. As a result of these omissions and of other simplifications I am glad to say that, on a rough estimate, the Bill will be only about a third of the length of the existing statute law, and I should think that legislators, lawyers and others interested will be grateful for that. The explanatory memorandum attempts to summarise the provisions of the Bill and draws attention to the more important departures from the present law. I trust Senators will find it useful in examining the Bill.

I come now to the provisions of the Bill. I do not think I need go into great detail, because I have already mentioned the main purpose of the Bill and many of the provisions relate to matters of procedure, the details of which are explained in the explanatory memorandum.

Part I is formal and I need say no more about it.

Part II includes the most important provisions or at least the provisions most likely to be of interest to the House.

Section 5 is technical, though important. It provides for the division of the country into jury districts. Each county will be a jury district. The only substantial change from the present law is that county boroughs will no longer be separate jury districts but will be included in the respective counties. As at present there will be power to subdivide counties into jury districts.

Section 6 is the most important section. It lays down the new general rule as to qualification and liability for jury service. Every citizen aged 18 or upwards and under 70 who is entered in a register of Dáil electors will be qualified and liable unless he is ineligible under section 7 or disqualified under section 8. I shall come to ineligibility and disqualification in a moment, but first I wish to say something about the age limits for jurors. The reduction of the lower age limit from 21 to 18 and the increase of the upper age limit from 65 to 70 are important changes, and the former at least is a matter as to which there is room for some difference of opinion.

The argument in favour of keeping the lower age limit at 21 is the admittedly strong one that many persons aged 18, 19 or 20 are likely to be insufficiently mature and experienced to be held satisfactorily to discharge the duties of jurors, involving as they do decisions that may be of the greatest importance to the parties to the litigation. In particular, older people involved in litigation, whether as defendants in criminal cases or as parties in civil cases, might feel concerned, and aggrieved, at the thought of their cases being decided by juries including members as young as 18. As against this, however, there is the consideration that younger persons, in particular persons under 21, who are themselves involved in litigation might feel aggrieved at the total exclusion of persons of nearly their own age from the jury.

There are two arguments of principle in favour of reducing the lower age limit to 18. The first is that since the Legislature and the public, by deciding to reduce the voting age and the age for making a will to 18, have accepted the proposition that people of 18 are sufficiently mature to be trusted to take decisions that may be vital as regards their own and other people's affairs, it follows that the Legislature ought to treat these young people as sufficiently mature to be trusted to serve as jurors. The second argument is that to allow persons of these ages to perform so important a function as jury service should, by involving them in the administration of the law, increase their sense of being responsible members of the community. There are also practical difficulties that would arise if the lower age for jury service were kept at 21. The electoral registers, from which jurors will be taken, include all persons of 18 or over, and it would be impossible without a great deal of administrative work and extra expense to arrange for the registers to distinguish persons under 21. It would of course be possible for the law to provide that persons under 21 should be ineligible even though their names were on the electoral registers, but there might be considerable difficulties in determining whether particular persons summoned from the registers were over or under that age. Some persons under 21 might conceal the fact because they objected on principle to not being treated as qualified to serve; others though over 21 might claim to be under that age in order to avoid serving. As a result there would be the inconvenience that the county registrars or the courts might consider it necessary to require the production of birth certificates.

The Government regard the question of the lower age limit as nicely balanced, but on the whole they consider that the right course is to reduce it to 18. If either party considers that a person selected as a juror looks so young that he should not serve, the party may challenge him under section 20, which section, as I shall mention later, increases the number of jurors who may be challenged without cause shown. Since the proportion of persons aged 18 to 20 who will be empanelled and selected on the ballot is likely in any event to be small, there should be little difficulty in avoiding having a disproportionate number of young persons on a jury. Moreover, it is proposed, as I shall also mention later, that whole-time students should be excusable as of right if summoned as jurors. I should add that in England and Northern Ireland the lower age limit for jury service has been reduced to 18.

The raising of the upper age limit from 65 to 70 seems to be clearly right in principle. There must be many people, including retired people, between those ages who feel, and are, perfectly competent to serve on juries, and they may well resent being treated as too old to do so. But under section 9, read with Part II of the First Schedule, they will have the right to be excused if summoned.

Section 7, read with Part I of the First Schedule, specifies the persons who are to be ineligible for jury service. The classes of persons to be ineligible correspond broadly to those ineligible under the present law. The differences are summarised in paragraph 47 of the explanatory memorandum, which relates to Part I of that Schedule. It is sufficient, I think, to mention two matters here. The first is that a considerably wider range of persons than at present will be excluded on the ground of being "persons concerned with the administration of justice". The reason for exclusion of these persons is the desirability of preserving the essentially lay character of juries and also the sense of grievance that accused persons in criminal cases might well have if the jurors trying them included lawyers or persons fulfilling public functions connected with the administration of the law such as members of the Garda Síochána, prison officers or other persons of the classes specified in the Schedule. The second matter I should mention here is that the complete exemption enjoyed by civil servants and local government officials under the present law is being abolished. This exemption seems to the Government, as it did to Mr. Justice Walsh's committee, quite unjustified. Instead the Bill provides that heads of Departments and so on shall be excusable as of right and other officials only on a certificate by the head of the Department. I shall return to this aspect later.

Section 8 specifies the persons who are to be disqualified for jury service on account of having been convicted of crime. The need for some persons to be disqualified on this ground is obvious and the only question is as to what classes exactly should be excluded. The present rule—in section 4 of the Juries Act, 1927—was, in my view, more than ripe for reconsideration. It excludes only persons convicted of treason, treason-felony, any other felony or perjury, and this applies however small the sentence passed and however long ago the conviction occurred. Thus a person convicted when a child of stealing an apple is in law disqualified for life but a person who has been convicted of a large-scale fraud which happens to be misdemeanour and been sentenced to ten years' imprisonment is not disqualified.

Section 8, to state its effect shortly, proposes that a person should be disqualified permanently if he has been sentenced to five years' imprisonment or more and that a person who has been sentenced to at least three months' imprisonment, provided he has actually served any part of the sentence, shall be disqualified for ten years. The section will apply to sentences passed in any part of Ireland. It might be argued that, logically, it should apply to sentences passed in any part of the world, but it is necessary to draw the line somewhere and it seems reasonable in this case to draw it round Ireland.

Section 9 provides that certain persons, though liable to be summoned for jury service, shall, if in fact summoned, be excusable as of right and that other persons may be excused for good reason at the discretion of the county registrar or the court to which they are summoned. The largest class of persons excusable as of right will be those specified in Part II of the First Schedule. These classes are summarised in paragraph 48 of the explanatory memorandum, which refers to the changes from the present law. I should explain here that the Bill proposes to make a procedural change in respect of these classes of persons apart from the changes in the classes themselves. The procedural changes is that at present the persons in question cannot be summoned unless they volunteer for jury service; under the Bill they will be able to be summoned but will be entitled to be excused if they wish. The largest change from the present law is of course that women will have no absolute right not to serve.

The next most important change is that to which I have referred earlier that civil servants and local government officials, who are at present completely exempt, will instead be liable to be summoned but will be excusable as of right only to the extent provided in Part II of the Schedule. In future the heads of Departments and so on will be excusable as of right and other members of the staffs will be excusable as of right only if the head gives a certificate for this purpose. The certificate will have to state that—and I quote—"it would be contrary to the public interest for the civil servant [or other official] to have to serve as a juror because he performs essential and urgent services of public importance that cannot reasonably be performed by another or postponed". The giving of the certificate will therefore be far from a mere formality, and it will be the duty of the head of the Department to balance carefully the conflicting interests of jury service and the efficient working of the Department before giving a certificate that the latter should prevail. Universities, schools and other educational institutions will be treated, mutatis mutandis, like Departments for this purpose, and in addition whole-time students will, as I have mentioned, be excusable as of right. I have also already referred to the fact that the classes of persons excusable as of right will include persons between the ages of 65 and 70, who are at present not liable for jury service at all.

Apart from the persons specified in Part II of the First Schedule, section 9 provides that persons who have served or duly attended to serve on juries during the previous three years shall be excusable as of right. The section also gives statutory recognition to the practice by which a judge sometimes after a long trial exempts the jurors from further jury service for a fixed period or for life.

Section 9 also gives a general power to county registrars to excuse any person summoned for jury service if that person shows to the registrar's satisfaction that there is good reason why he should be excused. At present there is no general power vested in the empanelling and summoning officers to excuse jurors from attendance, though judges have the power to excuse, which they have delegated in some instances to the registrars of their courts. To give a general discretion such as proposed seems to me clearly desirable, especially now that so much larger numbers of persons will be liable for jury service. This applies especially in the case of women who may have homes and young children to look after. Similarly, the county registrar might excuse a person for pressing family or business reasons or the like or if he is in ill-health.

Section 9 provides that a person whom the county registrar has refused to excuse may appeal to a judge of the court to which he has been summoned. It also provides that, at the stage when the juror is required to be in attendance at the court, the judge shall have a similar duty or discretion to excuse as the county registrar has at the stage when the juror is summoned.

Part III of the Bill contains the procedural provisions as to the empanelling and summoning of jurors, the selection of the jurors to serve on particular juries by balloting in open court, the manner in which juries are sworn, the rights of the parties to challenge jurors and a few other matters. These are mostly matters of detail, involving few questions of principle, and I need only refer to the more important changes proposed as compared with the present law.

Section 11 provides that the empanelling of jurors—that is to say, the selection of the persons on the electoral registers who should be summoned to attend the court—shall be done by the county registrars. The registrar will be required to use "a procedure of random or other nondiscriminatory selection", but no special method of selection is specified. In this respect the Bill contrasts with the present law, under which, as I have mentioned, the composition of the panels is predetermined alphabetically according to the order in which the names of the persons liable to serve appear in the jurors' books. The county registrars will choose their own methods for making the selection except that they will have to comply with any administrative instructions that the Minister for Justice may issue to them under section 27, to which I shall refer later.

Section 12 provides for the summoning by the county registrar of the persons whom he has empanelled under section 11. The form of summons will be prescribed by the Minister for Justice by regulations. The section includes a requirement that the summons shall be accompanied by a notice informing the juror of the effect of the provisions of the Act as to qualification and liability for service, ineligibility, disqualification and excusability as of right; and the notice will have to inform the person summoned of his right to make representations to the county registrar with a view to the withdrawal of the summons if the juror is not qualified for jury service or wishes or is entitled to be excused. The summons will not be required to be served by any particular time before the time when the juror's attendance is required; but in fact it will be necessary to serve it at least a fortnight beforehand, because section 34 (3) provides that the juror will not be liable for non-attendance unless he had this length of notice. In fact I propose that the administrative instructions which are to be issued under section 27 should include an arrangement by which the summonses will be served so far as possible approximately four to six weeks in advance.

Under the present law only four days' notice is required. I propose also to include in the instructions an arrangement for county registrars to send out with the summons a form of return which the juror will be asked to complete and in which he will state whether he is qualified or not. The form can be used in order to apply for excusal. The juror will be under no legal obligation to return the form; but it will be in his interest, as well as helpful to the county registrar, for the juror to return it. It will be helpful to the county registrar, because, since the electoral registrers will not show whether a person is over 70, ineligible or disqualified, the county registrar will ordinarily have to rely in the first instance on the information supplied by the juror and, if the form is returned, he will be better able to judge whether there will be enough jurors or whether he will have to summon more. It will be in the juror's own interest to return the form, because, if he is not qualified or is excusable as of right or has a good claim to be excused, the county registrar will be in a position to tell him that he need not attend the court.

Section 15 includes two important provisions. The first is subsection (3), which provides that before the balloting for a particular jury is begun the judge shall warn the jurors present in court that they must not serve if ineligible or disqualified and as to the penalty—under section 36—for doing so. The judge will also invite any juror who knows that he is not qualified, or is in doubt as to whether he is qualified, or who may have an interest in the case or a connection with the case or the parties, to mention this fact if he is selected on the ballot. In the ordinary course it is to be hoped that any question whether a person summoned as a juror is or is not qualified will have been raised by the juror himself in the form of return to the summons, as I have mentioned in connection with section 12; but section 15 will provide an extra safeguard in case a juror has neglected to inform the county registrar of his want of qualification or in case he has ceased in the meantime to be qualified. The judge will be able to permit the juror to communicate the matter in question to him in writing. A juror might prefer to do this if, for example, the matter relates to a criminal conviction or some particular connection with the case or one of the parties.

If a juror claims not to be qualified or raises a doubt as to whether he is qualified, the judge should have no difficulty, after putting any necessary questions to the juror, in deciding whether he is qualified or not. In a doubtful case the judge may excuse the juror under section 9 (6), provided that the juror is willing to be excused, or he might discharge him under section 24—to which I shall refer later— or one of the parties might challenge the juror. The other change that section 15 makes is that in future, under subsection (4), jurors will choose their own foreman. At present the first juror to be sworn always becomes foreman.

Sections 17 to 19, which relate to the swearing of juries, include only one change of substance from the present law. This is that section 17 (2) provides that jurors shall be sworn separately. At present jurors may be sworn collectively in all except capital cases. It seems to me desirable in order to emphasise the importance of the duty of a jury to give a true verdict in accordance with the evidence that each juror should be sworn separately. The greater solemnity of the oath when taken separately will amply compensate for the small amount of extra time that will be taken.

Section 20 increases the number of challenges that the parties to civil or criminal proceedings are allowed to make without showing cause. At present in civil proceedings the plaintiff, or the plaintiffs between them, and the defendant, or the defendants between them, may challenge up to three jurors without cause shown. In criminal proceedings a single accused may challenge up to five jurors without cause shown. Where there are more than one accused they may challenge up to ten jurors without cause in treason or murder and up to six in other cases. In criminal cases the Attorney General or Director of Public Prosecutions has no right of challenge without cause, as such, but he may direct any number of the jurors to "stand-by", with the result that they are not included in the jury unless a complete jury cannot be formed without them. Section 20 proposes to give each party to civil proceedings, and the Attorney General or Director of Public Prosecutions and each accused in criminal proceedings, the right to challenge up to seven jurors without cause. This will take away the privileged position of the prosecution and assimilate their position to that of the accused. I am convinced that this is right in policy.

The increased number of challenges proposed to be allowed to each party —that is to say, seven—is two more than the five that the Committee on Court Practice and Procedure recommended in their Fourth Interim Report, but I consider that it is right to make this further increase, partly because of the greatly increased number of persons who will be liable for jury service and partly, in particular, because of the larger number of younger persons who will be liable owing to the reduction of the lower age limit to 18. This reduction was, of course, not contemplated by the committee, as the voting age and the age for making a will had not been reduced at the time when the committee were considering the question and persons under 21 were not then on the electoral registers.

Section 24 gives a general discretion to the judge at any stage of a trial to direct that a juror shall not serve, or shall not continue to serve, if the judge considers that for any stated reason it is desirable in the interests of justice to give the direction. This provision is mainly for the purpose of clarification. The Committee on Court Practice and Procedure thought that there was an inherent power to give such a direction but that, as there was some doubt about the matter and as the power would be useful, provision should be made expressly conferring it. They instanced "physical disability on the part of the juror" among the possible grounds for giving the direction. As I mentioned earlier in connection with section 15, the judge might exercise his power under section 24 in a case where there was doubt as to whether a juror was qualified to serve and the doubt could not readily be resolved. Of course section 24 will not affect the power or duty of a judge to discharge the whole jury in appropriate cases.

Section 25 provides that in all jury trials the jury may separate before considering their verdict except where the judge otherwise directs. At present the jurors may not be permitted to separate in cases of capital murder, treason or treason-felony. It seems to me that this is a matter on which it is unnecessary for there to be a rigid rule and that the decision whether the jurors should be allowed to separate can properly be left to the discretion of the judge in all cases.

Part IV of the Bill contains certain general provisions, mostly related to matters of detail or technical matters. I think I need refer to only two of the sections.

Section 27 provides that the Minister for Justice may issue administrative instructions to county registrars with regard to the practice and procedure to be adopted by them in the discharge of their duties under the Act. The only purpose for which instructions may be issued will be that of securing consistency in the administration of the Act. It seems necessary that the Minister for Justice should have this power, as otherwise there might be too much difference between the procedures adopted in different counties, with consequent dissatisfaction on the part of jurors and others affected by the Act. The danger of this might arise in particular because so much of the procedure under the Act will be new. The instructions I have in mind to issue will relate principally to the method of selecting the persons to be empanelled as jurors and the general procedure for dealing with applications for excusal. Draft administrative instructions are at present being prepared in consultation with some of the county registrars in anticipation of the passing of the Bill. Section 27 expressly prohibits the issue of any instructions as to whether particular persons should or should not be summoned for jury service or, if summoned, should or should not be excused. It would clearly be entirely wrong for the Minister to be able to give any such instruction. In the case of discretionary excusal, in particular, it will be the duty of the county registrar to consider every application on its merits, and to grant or refuse it accordingly, without influence from any quarter.

Section 29 is intended to protect employees and apprentices from losing pay owing to absence from their work for the purpose of complying with a jury summons. The section provides that they shall be treated for the purpose of the contract of employment or apprenticeship as being employed or apprenticed during any period when they are absent for jury service. They will thus be entitled to their pay for the period as if they were still at work, and the section makes void any provision in a contract that would deprive the employee or apprentice of the benefit of the section.

Part V specifies the offences under the Act. Section 34 penalises failure without reasonable excuse to attend in compliance with a jury summons, not being available when required to serve, and unfitness for service by reason of drink or drugs. Section 35 covers making or being party to the making of a false statement for the purpose of enabling the maker or somebody else to avoid jury service and refusing to answer or answering falsely when questioned by a judge for the purpose of determining whether the offender is qualified to serve as a juror.

Section 36 makes it an offence to serve as a juror when ineligible or disqualified, and section 37 deals with refusal to be sworn as a juror. The sections cover a wider field of conduct than does the existing law, but the provisions all follow logically from the scheme of the Bill generally. In particular, since the persons qualified and liable for jury service will in future not have been sifted in advance as at present, and since all persons on the electoral register will prima facie be qualified and liable, it will be particularly important to penalise the making of a false statement in order to avoid jury service and also to penalise serving when ineligible or disqualified.

All the offences will be Summary offences, punishable in the ordinary way in the District Court. The maximum penalty will be a fine of £50 except in the case of serving when disqualified owing to a criminal conviction, when it will be £200. The much higher penalty for the latter offence is proposed owing to the particularly serious harm that may be done to the interests of justice if a person with a criminal record manages to serve on a jury. The provisions as to failure to attend the court contrast with the present law. At present when a person fails to answer to his name when the panel is called over the judge must impose a fine of £3, but he may afterwards remit or reduce the fine if the absent juror, on being notified of the imposition of the fine, makes representations for the purpose. The present procedure seems unnecessarily elaborate and the provision for a fine of a fixed amount seems inappropriate when the circumstances may vary so much. Moreover, £3 is clearly far too low a figure in these days, and it is known that some people ignore the summons and pay the £3 in order to avoid the inconvenience of attending the court. The prospect of a prosecution in the District Court and a fine of up to £50 should cause people so minded to take a more responsible attitude to their duties as citizens.

There is one omission which Senators will not have failed to notice. This is that the Bill makes no provisions for jurors to be paid out of public funds for their service. I am of opinion that payment ought not to be made for doing a civic duty, particularly when it will arise only very infrequently. There is the practical point that, if payment were to be made, it would be pointless unless it were adequate to compensate for loss, and of course the financial implications of that for the Exchequer would be enormous. I have provided that an employee shall not lose wages through being absent on jury service, and I do so because, while one should not, in my opinion, be paid for doing a civic duty, neither should one be at a loss. I recognise that the self-employed person does run the risk of loss, but at least he can order his affairs so as to minimise his loss and maybe pull up for it later.

To sum up, the Bill replaces the unconstitutional and otherwise objectionable features of the present legislation with fresh legislation which will spread the burden of jury service over the population as a whole, will improve the present procedure in a number of respects and will considerably shorten and simplify the general law relating to juries and jury service.

This Bill is a very excellent consolidation measure in that we have incorporated in it the fundamental 1927 Juries Act and a number of other Juries Acts and Local Government, Courts of Justice, corners' and electoral Acts that over the years have provisions related to juries' qualifications and their function. I regard as an excellent approach that we do not have just an amendment Bill but we have the whole law relating to juries in one statute. I appreciate the Minister's urgency in the matter, having regard to the present state of juries, particularly in criminal actions, where criminal trials are at a standstill pending the enactment of some legislation to legitimise the position of criminal juries. In the case of civil juries there are certain upsets at present, where some defendants are agreeable and some are not to the participation of juries under the present system. However, we would urge the Minister not to rush in regard to the Committee Stage, because there are a number of very practical amendments that could be suggested, particularly on the modifications of the incorporated provisions of previous legislation. It is a matter for both Houses to consider. It is a bad principle to hurry legislation. I appreciate the urgency of the situation, but let us not overdo the haste. I will refer later to amendments which could be introduced.

We on this side of the House accept the broad principle of the Bill of extending jury service to everybody between 18 years and 70 years, eliminating the property qualification and applying equally to men and women. That is agreed and indeed, even if it was not agreed, the constitutional decision in the Supreme Court case makes it mandatory on the legislator to adopt it.

One aspect that is going to cause some trouble to practictioners: you will no longer have a jury list defining one's profession, occupation or trade. At the present time, because of the restricted nature of jury lists, the occupation is available. When the officer of the court presents it on request to the defending solicitor or counsel one knows what the occupation of the particular juror on the list is. I realise that is a very difficult matter when one is thinking in terms of the whole electoral list. I mention it en passant as a new element in the matter in that there will be, by reason of this Bill, a very real problem in identifying the class, category, profession, trade or interest of jurors as compared to the present system. That is a very small point in regard to the overall desirability of the new system, but I mention it as a very real practical point. It is of public interest that at the moment either the State or the plaintiff or defendant in a criminal case can have a view of the jury list before trial of action or criminal trial. This does enable a fair jury to be empanelled in that one knows from the occupation of a juror disclosed in the list whether or not that person is likely to have an interest in the matter at issue.

It is going to be very difficult to do this with the whole electoral list. I should like to hear the Minister on that aspect. I appreciate the practical difficulties involved. I think that something has been lost by reason of this transfer by reason of the fact that one cannot identify the jury to a sufficient degree to ensure as far as possible that people without interests are empanelled on the jury. That is the only point I would make. In general I am in total agreement with the proposition that people without property as well as people with property are fully entitled in a free State to serve on a jury and that is irrespective of sex or class. This is only in accordance with a civilised State's conception of the capability of people to perform a civic function when demanded. The principle is excellent and there is only that one difficulty I mentioned: ensuring that there is empanelled a jury without interest.

As regards the various persons excused and the people automatically ineligible, I think there is a very real improvement here in that people in the public service, who comprise such a wide section of our community, are now open to call on jury, with the proviso that heads of Government Departments are excused. A civil servant may still be excused if the head of his Department certifies that it would be contrary to public interest for the civil servant concerned to serve on a jury. That, I think, is a very useful adoption, and again was recommended in the report by Mr. Justice Walsh. It widens the whole scope of jury service.

I totally subscribe to the principle that every person over 18 and under 70 in a modern democratic State should be eligible to take his place as a citizen on a jury. But, apart from that principle, there was the very practical weakness in the present system that the list was so circumscribed and small, particularly in Dublin city and county where you had the great weight of jury trials both in criminal and civil cases, that you had people coming on to juries far too often. It is at the moment, and has been for a long number of years, a very real burden on those people. A very small group of people were being continually called for jury service because of the huge exemption that exists. You had in Dublin city and county a situation where people were being regularly called back to jury service, and it hit in particular the category of self-employed people more than any other, people who could ill-afford to be away from their businesses. People employed in insurance companies could always plead an interest, indeed they are and often have been challenged. Doctors, of course, were and still are excluded, and lawyers are excluded now. This meant that self-employed people, particularly in Dublin city and county, were continually being brought back for jury service. The area of jury service is now being broadened to include everybody on the electors' list with certain exceptions specified in the Schedule. This means that instead of having about 30,000 on the jurors' list —and with the exemptions it is probably much less than that—in Dublin city and county you now have 400,000 to 500,000 people on it. Straight away you remove the burden from people. You remove likelihood of being called. People who were in the difficulty of being called every two years are now likely to be called every 20 or 30 years. That is undoubtedly a vast improvement on the existing situation in practical terms.

A number of the modifications that follow Mr. Justice Walsh's recommendations make sense. Equalising the situation in regard to challenging jurors between prosecution and defence and between plaintiff and defendant is excellent. There was a situation which existed heretofore in a criminal trial where the State could put a juror on standby indefinitely. I know it was not exercised in that way, but it was an undesirable theoretical weighting of the situation in favour of the State. Now the State and the defence in criminal trials are being put in the same situation of being unable to challenge someone without cause and with cause indefinitely, provided the cause is regarded as being legitimate. There is the useful reform in regard to empanelling jurors separately and in regard to a foreman of the jury being selected by the jury. There is the useful reform in regard to the means by which people can seek exemption for a stated cause, either through the country registrar or from the judge himself in court.

The fundamental principle is accepted. The desirable modifications are accepted and the re-incorporation of the various juries legislation is accepted. However, the Minister would probably regard it as quite exceptional if I did not mention some point of criticism. I am coming to what I think is a very valid point. I think the Minister is being less than candid in his reference to the question of payment of jurors. He said in his speech that this is one omission which the Seanad would have failed to notice and they did not. To that extent, we agree with the Minister. There is no provision for jurors to be paid out of public funds. The Minister, after paying tremendous tribute to Mr. Justice Brian Walsh and his committee, which proposed the various modifications referred to here and the important matter of widening the right of jurors, does not mention that it is specifically stated in that report, which had very mature consideration, in 1965 that jurors be paid at the rate of £2 per day. At present, in case the Seanad is not aware of the fact, there is an outrageous provision, laughable in the extreme, which is now repealed, whereby jurors are paid 5/- per trial and that only in civil actions.

That is 25p now.

Suitably modified by Senator O'Higgins, it is 25p. That outrageous provision, involving people in certain areas in considerable expense, is going, but what do we have in its place? I should like to hear what the Minister has to say on this matter. While what is written into section 29 goes some of the way towards meeting my point, it only applies to jury service by employees and apprentices. The section clearly states that for the purposes of any contract of service or apprenticeship the person shall be treated as employed or apprenticed during any period during which he is absent from his employment or apprenticeship in order to comply with the jury summons. Then the section renders void any contract or agreement to the contrary.

Therefore, section 29 means that the employer must pay his employee while that employee is on jury service. That is an excellent arrangement as far as it goes but it only covers the very limited field of employees; it does not in any way cover the whole area of self-employed people, professional people, farmers and people who are not in employment. In other words, people who are in employment must be paid by the employer, under the terms of section 29, but the State decides that it has no function in the matter. In regard to employees, the State says that the employer must pay them; the employer cannot deduct any money from the employee on jury service; he must get his full earnings. To that extent the employer is penalised and the State escapes scot free. Therefore, the State is not assuming any responsibility in this matter. This may be due to the current exigencies of the Exchequer; in fact, I am practically certain this is the case. It is entirely wrong, in principle, that the only burden in regard to jury service in this Bill is placed not on the State but on employers whose employees are on jury service. The State takes no financial responsibility for the payment of jurors, their expenses, subsistence or anything else related to jury service.

The Minister makes the point that there is a civic duty involved. That is all very well up to a point. The Walsh Committee discussed this matter in great detail but came to a very bald conclusion. They went through all the various options involved—payment of expenses, doing what the Minister is doing to some degree in regard to employed people and other options in regard to compensation. They reached the conclusion in 1965 that the best solution was a straightforward payment of £X per day. Their recommendation in 1965 was £2 per day. In current terms that sum is translated into £5 per day. I would suggest anything from £5 to £10 per day or something of that order. Five pounds per day is a reasonable transposition from £2 per day recommended in 1965. I am not being unduly spendthrift in that suggestion. Why not have a specific subsection written into the Bill that jurors be paid at the rate of £5 per day?

That is the one glaring departure by the Minister from the Walsh Committee on Practice and Procedure. I have the book on jury service and it is excellent. All the modifications recommended in that small booklet have been adopted apart from this very basic one. This is the recommendation which affects people who must serve on juries.

The Minister may reply that, because of the spread of the jury right, there will be less demand on particular jurors. That is true; there is no question about that; there will not be the same pressure on a limited number of jurors. At the same time there is a basic principle involved here and that is what concerned the Walsh Committee—that people should not be put to great personal expense for rendering a public service. In particular, now that employees are covered—at the expense of the employer not at the expense of the State under the terms of section 29—it would only be equitable that self-employed, professional people, farmers and everybody outside the employee category, including housewives, should be covered in regard to compensation for jury service. There is no question of anything other than that involved.

I come now to the central issue involved here in regard to this particular matter and that is the question of women jurors. An important motivation behind this Bill has been the desire to extend the right to women. I know there were other motivations also, in regard to people who do not own property or those people who have under £20 valuation. Such people may be highly intelligent and capable of serving on juries. Again, under section 29, unless the woman serving on the jury is employed, she is being penalised along with all the other non-employed people. I would suggest that on the law of averages a far higher percentage of women rather than men on the register are not in the employed category under section 29.

From a logical point of view there is a large number of housewives and women engaged in other activities who would not be regarded as an employment category. These women would not be regarded, under section 29, as being employed. Therefore, the whole area of self-employed, the professional people eligible for jury service and farmers, do not receive any compensation for jury service under this Bill. A very desirable reform suggested by Mr. Justice Brian Walsh is ignored, the only one which involved any small incumbrance on the Exchequer.

Leaving aside the financial exigencies, is this not being a little bit short-sighted? We are legislating not just for the immediate difficult 12 months ahead; we are legislating for 20 or 30 years. We should be hopefully thinking of getting out of this economic mess in a few years time. Should we, then, in this legislation adopt this niggardly approach in regard to this matter? The Walsh Committee considered all these options having regard to self-employed people, housewives, professional people, farmers and employed people. Looking at the whole spectrum of our society they decided that the most practical way to compensate was on a cash payment per day from the Exchequer. They recommended £2 per day ten years ago; I would recommend very strongly £5 per day.

I appreciate the problems in this House of moving an amendment of that kind but such an amendment will be moved in the Dáil on behalf of our party who feel very strongly that this is a very grave lacuna in what is otherwise an excellent Bill. Perhaps the Minister would reconsider that matter, but I can well understand that he is very much in the hands of the Minister for Finance at this stage and we are probably talking to somebody who cannot really do anything about it. I am certain the Government made a financial decision before processing this legislation not to have any financial obligation. I think that is a very retrograde and short-sighted step. It is not looking ahead to the reality of the situation where there should be some reasonable compensation for people who have to take jury service.

It is the only but very important omission from the general purpose of the recommendations made on jury services by Mr. Justice Walsh's Committee on Court Practice and Procedure. Otherwise, the Bill is excellent in principle and has many practical reasons behind it.

I do not want to say very much about this Bill. I welcome it, as Senator Lenihan did. It is due to him to say that I think, by and large, Senator Lenihan's analysis of the Bill was fair and showed a practical approach to it. A number of the points he raised did occur to me and I wanted to refer, possibly in a slightly different way, to some of them.

I can see and appreciate, and certainly I can understand, the point of view which Senator Lenihan expressed when he was urging payment for jurors. I recognise also that this was a recommendation which was put up. I think there are two points of view involved here: it depends entirely on which point of view one takes.

My own view, and it was my view long before the Minister adverted to it in the same way in his opening speech, is that the tradition here— admittedly it comes from the British tradition—of jury service is one of the ordinary people partaking in a civic duty related to the administration of justice. Looking at it from that point of view, I would feel that in principle it is bad that one should regard people as necessarily entitled to payment for performing what is, and should be regarded as a civic duty. It is in that light that the question of jury service has been viewed all along in this country and in Great Britain. For that reason, I would quarrel with Senator Lenihan's description of the Minister's approach in this matter as retrograde. "Retrograde" to me indicates stepping back from a position which perhaps obtained. The position of payment for juries out of State funds never obtained in this country. If it were to be introduced now it would not be a question of merely increasing or extending a right that was there: it would be a question of introducing a completely new principal into the law of jury service.

There are two points of view on it. A person may perfectly legitimately argue that that new principle should be introduced into the law. Personally, I do not take that point of view, I may have a more legal, theoretical approach to the system of jury service than the person who had no connection with the law and who did not, so to speak, see the law in precisely the same light or have the same kind of view of civic duty in the framework of the law as a lawyer might have. It is certainly understandable that a person who is required to serve on a jury, whether it be a civil jury or a criminal jury, should feel concerned if he is going to be out of pocket as a result of partaking in the legal administration in that way. That is the way it has been.

So far as civil juries are concerned, there is another course which might be adopted. I do not know that it would be a particularly popular one from the point of view of lawyers, because I think lawyers are quite conscious of the fact that the value of their services is not always appreciated. When I talk about value I am talking of cash value. There is a general view that the cost of litigation is too high as it is. A possible intermediate course would be to allow for payment of jurors in civil cases with the loser paying but that adds on to the total cost of the litigation ultimately. The unfortunate loser in court then, in addition to having to pay his own solicitor and counsel and in most cases when he is in the position of loser having to pay the other side's solicitor and counsel, would have to pay the jury costs or expenses. My own view is that, as a matter of principle, it is probably better that there should not be any payment of jurors and that it is better to leave the position as it stands at the moment.

I would have felt that reducing the age of jury service to 18 is probably going too far, but I accept that the arguments which the Minister advanced in favour of that step are perfectly valid. It is hard to argue against a person of 18 serving on a jury when at the same time one knows that person is entitled to vote, entitled to cast what perhaps might be a vital vote in matters of extreme importance in the arena of national politics. That person is entitled to serve in the Defence Forces and so on.

Those are all valid arguments and they probably would outweigh some other arguments that to my mind, from a practical point of view, would exist against reducing the age to 18. For example, in civil cases, I think Senator Lenihan will agree with me that the weight of jury cases on the civil side are those which are concerned with assessing damages and so on in road traffic cases, running-down cases, as they are called. There is an advantage, although you cannot always ensure it, from the point of view of the litigants in having a jury comprising of people who themselves, either as drivers or as passengers as the case may be, have a certain amount of practical experience on the roads and, having regard to the age limit at which people can secure driving licences I think it follows automatically that a person who is aged 18 serving on a jury in a running-down case will have very little practical experience to assist him in his jury service. As against that, this Bill does increase substantially the rights of the parties. It is now open to them to challenge up to seven jurors without showing cause and more if they show cause. That is an additional safeguard in the case of an over-young jury dealing with the kind of civil case I have in mind. In any event the other arguments that the Minister advanced in favour of reducing the age are valid.

Senator Lenihan made what appeared to me to be a good point in connection with the desirability of the parties knowing the occupation of jurors, particularly in civil cases. I do not know to what extent that could be dealt with by the regulations which the Minister can make under section 27 of the Bill, but it does seem to me to be desirable that the parties to a suit in civil proceedings should be aware of the occupation of those who are called for jury service. Any of us who have any experience of jury cases will know that the plaintiff in a running-down case will always challenge a person who is described as an insurance agent or insurance manager or anyone else connected with an insurance company if he is called for jury service. On the elector's list that kind of information will not be given.

If the jury panel is to be the equivalent of the elector's list or the register of electors, then the parties to the proceedings are not going to be aware, merely from that, of the ocupations of those called for jury service or whether or not there is any danger of a person who is called in the panel of the day having an oblique or even a direct interest in the proceedings. It may be that in the regulations which the Minister is entitled to make under section 27 he could make provision for a list to be compiled from the elector's list but giving the county registrar the authority to inquire as to the occupation of those on the list or possibly even to put that question to them when they turn up for jury service in court. But it is a point that deserves to be considered and taken into account.

I have a feeling that the outcome of the test case, the constitutional case, which was brought and which established that it is unconstitutional to preclude women from jury service, will not be entirely popular with women here generally. Certainly, there are some who will be anxious to play their full part as a matter of civic duty in serving on juries, but there will be a great number who will find it a matter of very considerable inconvenience that they should be required to do so. I would have thought that it might have been worth considering amending the law-and it could be done in this Bill —so as to put housewives in the category of people who might be excused as of right if they seek to be excused. I think that would meet the requirements of the Constitution arising out of the Supreme Court decision and at the same time it would leave the mother of a small family or women who for one reason or another would find it very difficult or inconvenient to serve on the jury able to get out of jury service if she or they wished to do so.

The only other point I want to make is a Committee point. It is in connection with section 9. The Minister might have an opportunity of looking at it, in subsection (2) of section 9: it is provided that a county registrar may excuse any person whom he has summoned as a juror from attendance during the whole or any part of the sitting in question if that person shows to the registrar's satisfaction that there is good reason why he should be so excused. I think that is an excellent provision to have in. The only point I want to make—I may appear to be carping a bit to make it at all—is that I would prefer to see that worded, something like this: "...during the whole or any part of the sittings in question if it is shown to the registrar's satisfaction..." rather than "...if that person shows to the registrar's satisfaction..."

In making this submission to the Minister I have in mind a case one frequently comes across even at present—and which when there is the extended list for jury service one may more frequently come across—where a person is called for jury service who is out of the country, or is a commercial traveller who is away doing an area that is going to keep him away from home for a considerable time. He may not have the opportunity himself of satisfying the county registrar that there is good reason why he should be excused. But some other member of the household, his wife or someone else, should be in a position to go along to the county registrar and say: "My husband is abroad" or "My husband is down in Cork, and when he is finished in Cork he will have to go to Kerry or Limerick, and he will not be back home for two or three weeks". I would prefer if that were worded a little more flexibly and if some phrase such as: " If it is shown to the satisfaction of the county registrar", were used instead of putting the onus directly and personally on the person who seeks to be excused.

Having made those few remarks— and I intend them all to be helpful— I should like to join Senator Lenihan in welcoming the Bill both as a codification and as a practical and valuable step as part of our general legislation dealing with jury service.

I should like to join the two previous speakers in welcoming the Bill. Generally speaking, it is a very good Bill and implements most of the recommendations of the Justice Walsh Committee. In particular I should like to welcome the fact that the law in relation to juries is now being consolidated in one Bill. I have on many occasions in the past criticised Ministers for bringing in piecemeal legislation, amendments to previous Acts which made it very often amendments to amendments which, in turn, made it very difficult for anyone to find out exactly what was the position. I have pleasure in welcoming the Bill and commending the Minister for bringing it before us.

The principal change the involved is that which extends the obligation for jury service to all citizens. This change was necessitated by the recent Supreme Court decision, but it was recommended also by the Walsh Committee. However, regardless of the immediate reason for the Bill, I am very glad that it has been introduced.

The Minister is right also in limiting the people who are ineligible or who can be excused from jury service. It was wrong and unjustifiable that civil servants and others were excused up to now. I hope that the power that is given to the county registrar to excuse people will be exercised in a reasonable and understanding way. I have no doubt that this will be so. Senator O'Higgins' point about the wording of that section is a very valid one and the Minister should introduce an amendment to deal with that situation. Very often the person concerned will not be available to make the case or explain why it is impossible or very difficult for him to serve.

One of the things which is relevant to this is the power which is given to heads of Departments and various other people to excuse members of their staffs from serving on juries. This power is given to the heads of Government Departments and offices. Perhaps the Minister, when he is replying, would define what an office is compared with a Government Department. There seems to be no good reason why the head of a Department should be given statutory power to excuse one of his officers from service on a jury. It is understandable that in certain circumstances it would not be in the national interest or would be extremely inconvenient that a particular officer should have to serve on a jury, but this can be dealt with under the powers given in section 9. All that is necessary is for a case to be made to a county registrar that it would be inconvenient or that it would not be in the national interest for whatever reason given that an officer of the Department should serve on the jury. I have no doubt that in such circumstances the county registrar would accept such a case. There is no reason why the head of a Government Department should be in any special position as compared with the managing director of a large firm or the head of any institution or any firm, farm or anything else. Since the county registrar has power to excuse a person it seems unnecessary to give statutory power to the head of a Department to name a person and say that he cannot be called for jury service.

Section 9, subsection (2) is quite correct and I hope it will be exercised in a reasonable humane way.

The Minister has adopted most of the recommendations of the Committee on Court Practice and Procedure. There are a few of them in particular that I am glad have not only been accepted but have been accepted in a comprehensive way, in particular the instructions telling the juror in advance what his rights are, telling him what his duties are, and giving him information about what he is being asked to do. It is a good thing that this has been done. It was a very sound recommendation of the committee and in my view the Bill does this very well.

The second change which is being made is that of allowing the jury to choose their own foreman. Taking the first person called as the foreman was not necessarily a good idea and was often a bad idea. There should be a little more detail as to when the foreman is elected. At the moment it is not quite clear exactly when that would take place. Section 15 (4) states:

The foreman shall be such member as the jurors shall choose and the choice shall be made at such time as the judge may direct, or in the absence of a direction, before the jury bring in their verdict or make any other communication to the judge.

The Walsh Committee commented on the fact that jurors very often did not know what were their rights as members of the jury. For instance, they pointed out that a jury very often did not realise that they had the right to ask questions in order to clarify some point that they did not understand. The committee were quite correct about this. But to do that kind of thing effectively the foreman should be appointed from the beginning so that a member of the jury who wants to ask a question or has some difficulty should know who the foreman is and ask him to allow the jury to ask a question or whatever may be necessary. Whereas I agree that the choice of a foreman being left to the jury is a good one, there should be some detailed direction as to when the foreman should be chosen and I think he should be chosen from the very beginning of the hearing.

The question of notice, too, was dealt with by the committee. At that time the amount of notice which a juryman had to have was four days. The committee considered that it should be a minimum of four weeks, but recommended that it should be much longer and said that from studies and inquiries they had made, they found that in certain parts of the United States, for instance, the period was as long as six months. This would give, of course, any person making holiday or other arrangements six months to ensure that his holiday would not clash with his service on a jury. There is no reason, for practical purposes, why a juror should not be given far more than two weeks' notice. I know that section 14, which deals with an emergency situation, would have to be excluded. But in the ordinary way I would hope that the county registrar would give far more than the minimum of two weeks mentioned in the Bill.

I am not quite clear why the question of notice is dealt with under section 34 (3). It is merely dealt with on the basis that if a person does not get two weeks' notice he is not liable to a penalty. I do not quite understand why this question of two weeks was not put into section 12, the section which lays down what the registrar should do, the kind of notice he should give, the way he should serve the summons and so on. It would be appropriate that this should be in that section instead of in section 34 or certainly as well as section 34. As things stand the registrar does not have to give any kind of notice, and the only things that would happen is that if he does not give two weeks the person would not be liable to a fine.

The matter of remuneration has been dealt with by previous speakers and by the Minister, of course, in his speech. It seems to me that the Minister has not made a successful case for not paying remuneration, because as long ago as 1927 it was considered that remuneration should be paid to jurors in civil actions. I cannot see why a different view should be taken at this stage. Senator Lenihan said that 25p was a derisory amount at present, but it should be realised that in 1927 it was a substantial sum and certainly it would have provided adequate expenses for a person who had to stay away from home for the day. Therefore, back in 1927 it was considered that a person should have remuneration of a fairly substantial amount—certainly enough to pay his expenses for the day. The Judge Walsh Committee said that the amount was not enough for the present day—that was when they were reporting—and that it should be very much increased. They suggested £2 a day but it should siderably more now.

I do not understand the reasoning which says that this is not now necessary or justifiable, because, when one looks at the jurors there will be from now on, some of them—I hope not too many—will be in a position where it will be a real hardship for them to stay away for the day and have to get a meal away from home and so on. If you look at the kind of jury we had up to now it could be argued that most of them were people of some substance and that, therefore, the expenses of a day out would not have involved any great hardship on them. But in the future there will be some people at least for whom it will be a hardship-for instance, a person who is unemployed. Therefore, the arguments for continuing to pay remuneration and to pay remuneration which would be at least as substantial —given the change in the value of money—as five shillings was in 1927 are very strong and there is very little case to be made for abolishing remuneration altogether. However, that is the only really serious objection I would have to the terms of the Bill.

I am sorry that the Minister did not avail of this opportunity to look at the question of juries for civil actions generally and to consider whether they are necessary at all. My view is that for the ordinary running down simple action juries should be abolished, that they are not necessary. If they are not necessary, given the amount of time consumed and the amount of inconvenience, and so on, they are unjustifiable. We have, particularly in recent years, a good deal of criticism of the cost of motor and other insurance and it must be realised that the cost of motor insurance is very largely attributable to the existence of the jury system. With juries in this country compared with the United Kingdom, on balance, damages are substantially higher. The damages awarded, in so far as two cases can be compared—and I agree that it is very hard to compare two cases exactly—are generally speaking almost twice what were awarded for a similar case in the United Kingdom. The differential between the two is not as high as it used be but there are still substantially higher damages paid here under the jury system.

In addition to damages, we have the position that costs are higher, because with a jury a case takes longer. A case which could easily be dealt with by a judge alone in one day probably goes into a second day with a jury because there are extra speeches and charges to the jury and so on and the two-day case probably takes three days and so on. Therefore the costs are undeniably higher with a jury and in addition there is the position that because juries frequently bring in, unsustainable, bizarre verdicts—and it is not surprising that they bring in such verdicts because a person who has never served on a jury before is not familiar with the questions he is asked—there would be an appeal and very often a new trial. The whole thing adds up to extra costs. It is undeniable that the jury system in regard to civil claims, accident claims, has resulted in a very much higher cost of insurance, higher premiums, so that if this system is not absolutely necessary it is unjustifiable. Whether it is necessary is, of course, a matter of opinion; but there are a number of aspects of this, a number of points which should be considered.

We took our law of negligence of breach of duty, that whole concept, from the British system, which of course originally had juries. But they abolished the jury system many years ago and they are now dealing with such claims without juries and doing so successfully. There may be a difference of opinion about that but certainly there is no question of their ever going back to juries for that kind of case. If they find, having invented a system and passed it on to us, that they can carry on without juries, we should be looking at our own system and our use of juries and querying whether they are really necessary.

The second point which is relevant is the fact that we do not have juries in the Circuit Court. The Circuit Court now has jurisdiction up to £2,000. There are many actions taken in this court for accident cases, for injuries and so on, but a person going to the Circuit Court does not have a jury. It is difficult to understand what principle could apply or what principle operates which says that a person who is claiming £3,000 is entitled to a jury but a person who is only claiming up to £2,000 is not entitled to a jury. It is just a question of habit that we have juries in the High Court and people are slow to change. It does not seem to me that there is any principle involved or any compelling reason why we should have juries where claims are for more than £2,000 but not where the amount involved is less than £2,000. This should be approached possibly with a proviso that in certain circumstances an application might be made to the court and that the court could allow a jury if a case was made for a jury but that it should not be available in every case.

In this connection, section 94 of the Courts of Justice Act, 1924, which gives the right to juries, states that any party to an action in a civil case may have a jury except in certain civil actions which are set out in section 94 but even in regard to these actions, an application can be made to the court and the court can order that even in these cases the party may be entitled to a jury. That section was amended by section 20 of the Courts of Justice Act, 1928, to a read that a person is not entitled to a jury in certain civil actions which are mentioned.

... unless the Court, on the application of any party, instituted at any time not later than seven days after notice of trial or on its own motion at the trial shall consider a jury to be necessary or desirable for the proper trial of the action and so shall order.

Perhaps even those who would be reluctant to abolish juries for all civil actions might be satisfied, where the right was there, to apply to the court and make a case for having a jury in a particular civil action. But in the vast majority of cases which involve a simple question of, say, a motorist colliding with a pedestrian or something of that kind, it seems to me quite unnecessary that there should be the full paraphernalia of 12 jurors, speeches to the jury, charges by the judge and so on, and a case going on for several days which could be tried very successfully by a judge in one day.

Having regard to the effect on insurance, to the hardship on jurors having to come in and serve on juries, and having regard to the waste of time, unless it is clear that the jury system is significantly more efficient I do not think there is a case for continuing it. I would recommend that the Minister and the House consider the question of whether having a jury in every civil action is justified in all the circumstances. Apart from that I welcome the Bill which is a very good one.

I join the Senators in welcoming this Bill, which updates the Juries Act, 1927. I do not think the Bill should be regarded merely as a Bill to abolish certain discriminations. Of course it does this—it abolishes discrimination on the grounds of sex, property qualification and age within certain limits. But I am sure the Minister would agree that it would be important that it be regarded from the point of view that it places the responsibility on more persons to undertake the civil duty of acting as jurors. This is a duty that should be approached in a very responsible manner. For that reason I welcome certain sections of the Bill, one of them being where the jurors are sworn in separately, giving a greater importance to the question of taking an oath.

I support the points put forward by Senator Lenihan and other speakers who asked the Minister to have a look at the question of paying jurors. I fully agree with the Minister's sentiments that in principle a person who performs a civic duty should not require to be paid; but we are, whether we like it or not, advancing more into the era of payment even for civil duties. Recently the Minister for Local Government made provision whereby city councillors and county councillors who do not normally get payment for their services are paid in certain circumstances where they absent themselves from work and as a result are at a loss. I should like to make a plea, particularly in regard to the self-employed—farmers, small shopkeepers, some professional people or tradesmen—who may find it inconvenient to attend and who may be at a loss. While accepting the Minister's principle, it could just as easily be argued that no person should be at a loss because they attend as a juror out of a sense of civic duty. It is not altogether a question of civic duty because there is an obligation on the person to attend. Therefore one could argue that they should not be at any financial loss because of attendance when they are empanelled.

The Minister is being a little bit naive when he says in the concluding paragraph of his speech:

I recognise that the self-employed person does run the risk of loss, but at least he can order his affairs so as to minimise his loss and maybe pull up for it later.

I think that is a pious hope, if the Minister will not mind my saying so, which may not in effect turn out to be the case. While I agree in principle with him I put forward the point that a person should not be at loss and if a person can be shown to be at a loss, if it can be demonstrated clearly that he has been at some loss, he should be recompensed. Perhaps the easiest way to avoid a lot of unnecessary applications or the provision of evidence of loss might be to have a figure of £4 or £5 for attendance of jurors.

One other point I should like to comment on is the reduction of the qualifying age from 21 to 18 years. I agree with some reluctance to the reduction of the age to 18 years. If it is desired, and I think it is desirable, that a juror should be a mature and responsible person, an experienced person and a person who would have reached the stage in life where he or she could take a mature, responsible and sensible decision, then the case might be put that the person of 21 years and upward would be in a better position, allowing for some exceptions as there are to every rule, to give such a mature judgment than a person of 18 or 19 years of age. I appreciate and accept now that 18 years is an age at which people can marry and vote or join the Army and do other responsible tasks on behalf of the nation or for themselves, and it is hard to argue against that case. In this particular instance one of the requirements for a juror is experience, and I suggest that at 18 years a person may not necessarily have the requisite experience and certainly will not have the same experience as a person of 21 years or over.

With regard to a person of 70 years I think there might be something for having no upper age limit. I think it will be hard to say as a matter of fact that a man of 71 years of age is not as clear or as good a juror as one of 70 years of age. It might be possible by having no upper limit to excuse a person on the ground of age if he did not wish to attend, because he was a man of 80 or 85 years of age. He could be excused on those ground. I am somewhat against having a hard and fast upper limit because all of us know that a man of 69 years of age could be much more incapable or much more incompetent or less satisfactory as a juror than a man of 71, 72 or 73. Competence does not necessarily go with age. People differ and every individual is different. I think there must be something for having a look at that upper age limit again. It is not a point on which I want to be terribly adamant but I put forward the point that there might be a case for having no upper age limit.

With regard to the Minister's point that the exclusion of people under 21 years of age would make for certain difficulties due to the fact that now all the jurors are going to be taken at random from the juries list. A somewhat similar arrangement could apply as the one proposed for the people over 70. In other words, a young man could say he is under 21 just as easily as a man has to say he is over 70. I do not think that on that ground a person need necessarily be included because they are under 21 or excluded because they are over 70. I think the principle behind the Bill is to get the best, most responsible and most mature citizens to act out of civic duty as a juror because it is a very responsible task.

Another point I wanted to make is in regard to disqualifications on the grounds of having served a prison sentence. The Minister states in his speech, and it is stated in the Bill, that this disqualification on the grounds of having served a prison sentence is confined to persons who have served prison sentences in Ireland, North and South. I wonder if it should not be extended to include Great Britain. There is so much interchange of population between Great Britain and this country, with people going back and forward daily, that I think there might be a case for including within the provisions of that section Great Britain. Our two countries are interwined in so many ways and there are so many people living here with relations and members of their family living in England and vice versa that in many ways the two countries are inseparable. I think it might be worth considering on those grounds.

Apart from those points I think the Bill is an excellent document. It is one which is obviously acceptable to all sides of this House. As the Minister has pointed out, there is a certain urgency about getting it through this and the other House and I think we have co-operated with the Minister in getting the legislation through as quickly as possible.

I, too, would like to welcome this Bill as a long needed reform of jury service and because it is a comprehensive measure which has repeated earlier Acts. However, I must begin on a critical note, and take the Minister and his predecessors to task for taking so long to bring in this necessary reform. Indeed I note that the Minister for Justice to whom the Committee on Court Practice and Procedure submitted their report in March, 1965, was Senator Lenihan, who is now sitting in his seat as Leader of the Opposition in this House. So I am afraid that the criticism must start with him and that the buck now rests with the present Minister. There has been a lamentable failure to bring about reform, not just in this area of jury service and the composition of juries, but in the whole area of legal administration. It does not seem to have been high on the order of priorities of successive Governments. That is a matter for great concern, this lack of zeal for law reform as such or reform of the administration of justice.

I think it is worth putting on the record the precise recommendations of this Second Interim Report of the Committee on Court Practice and Procedure which was submitted to the Government of the time on 15th March, 1965. These recommendations were as follows:—

No. 1. The property qualification for jurors should be abolished and inclusion in the electoral register should be the only qualification test for jury service.

No. 2. The following categories should no longer be exempt from jury service,

civil servants (with the reservations mentioned in paragraph 23 of this Report),

local government employees (with the like reservations),

women,

peace commissioners,

Members of the Institution of Civil Engineers of Ireland engaged in the active practice of their profession.

Otherwise the exemptions made by the First Schedule Parts 1 and 2 of the Juries Act, 1927, by the Defence Forces Act, 1954, Section 105, and by the Coroners Act, 1962 Section 9 should continue.

No. 3. An addition should be made to the categories exempt by making provision for the exemption on application of persons employed in the accident offices of insurance companies.

No. 4. Persons sworn as jurors should receive remuneration at the rate of £2 per day.

No. 5. Jurors should not be summoned for longer periods than two weeks at a time. These two weeks should be consecutive.

No. 6. The fine for non-attendance as a juror should be in the discretion of the presiding judge subject to a maximum of £10.

No. 7. At least two weeks' notice of attendance of service should be given.

No. 8. Jurors should receive written instructions as to their duties and functions.

No. 9. Jurors should be entitled to choose their own foreman.

No. 10. The disqualification contained in Section 4 of the Juries Act, 1937 should be continued.

This disqualification was based on being convicted of criminal offences and so on.

I read out those recommendations so that the House can appreciate that the main reforms contained in this Bill, almost 11 years later, formed part of the recommendation of the Committee on Court Practice and Procedure, updated by the fact that the voting age has been lowered and also by the fact that the fines in the present Bill are more in line with current values.

However, there are also two recommendations of the Committee on Court Practice and Procedure which are not in this Bill which I would favour. These recommendations refer to the remuneration of jurors and also to the fact that jurors should receive written instructions as to their duties and functions. I shall return to those two matters later when indicating the sort of amendments I should like to see to this Bill.

In that regard, I heard indirectly that the Minister would like to have the Bill through the Seanad as quickly as possible. I sympathise with his reasons, but I would ask for sufficient time for Members of the House to put down amendments; to have a period before Committee Stage is taken. This can be a short period but we would be failing in our civic duty as Senators if we did not apply ourselves to the Bill in this manner.

Before looking at the text of the Bill-having indicated that I agree with and endorse a great deal of its contents—I should like to look at the concept of trial by jury itself. This is an extremely important Bill, and it must be treated as such, because it extends and confirms the concept of trial by jury. In fact, the basic concept is not in issue as far as criminal cases are concerned because it is enshrined in Article 38 of the Constitution—other than in regard to minor offences, offences under military law or offences before the Special Criminal Court when that court is in existence.

Nevertheless, it is very important for the Seanad to examine the concept of trial by jury. Indeed, it is worth looking at some of the statements of different members of the Supreme Court analysing the concept of trial by jury which were made during the recent de Burca case which found the property qualification and the sex differential of the 1927 Act unconstitutional. I refer briefly, first of all, to the analysis by Mr. Justice Griffin of the purpose of a jury in a criminal trial. Obviously, any comments made by the Supreme Court in that case would relate to juries in criminal trials, because that constitutional action arose from a criminal trial. Mr. Justice Griffin said, in the course of his judgments:

The purpose of a jury is to interpose between the State and the accused person an impartial body of the accused's fellow citizens to try an issue joined between the prosecution and the accused. The jury should therefore in my opinion be a body truly representative of and a fair cross-section of the community.

Mr. Justice Henchy, in his judgment, also referred specifically to the concept of a jury and to the necessary standard for the composition of a jury in order to satisfy the requirement of the Constitution. He said:

In determining whether a particular method of jury selection will produce a jury that fairly represents a cross-section of the community, it is not enough to show that a particular class or particular classes are not represented or are under-represented. Competence to fill the duties of a juror is an individual rather than a class attribute. No group or class can lay claim to have any special qualification to produce representative jurors. Ideally, as many identifiable groups and classes as possible should be gathered in by the standard of eligibility set, so that a jury drawn from the panel will be seen to be a random sample of the whole community of the relevant district. But, because jurors are drawn by lot, a particular jury may turn out to be quite unrepresentative of the community. The Constitution cannot be read as postulating a system of jury selection that will avoid that risk. Therefore, the courts will not test the constitutionality of an impugned system of jury selection by seeing whether it provides the most comprehensive choice possible. The jury must, of course, be drawn from a pool broadly representative of the community so that its verdict will be stamped with the fairness and acceptability of a genuinely diffused community decision. The particular breadth of choice necessary to satisfy this requirement cannot be laid down in advance. It is left to the discretion of the legislature to formulate a system for the compilation of jury lists and panels from which will be recruited juries which will be competent impartial and representative.

One of the reasons why I favour the broad scope of this Bill is that it provides for a truly representative jury— citizens between the ages of 18 and 70. It also retains the unanimous verdict in a criminal trial. It does not provide, as is the position in the United Kingdom, for majority verdicts in criminal trials. These are important safeguards. Therefore the concept of trial by jury is well maintained in the terms of this Bill and the Bill complies with the standards set down in the judgments of the Supreme Court last December.

I should like to refer briefly to the attitude of the judges towards the two discriminations in the 1927 Act which they regarded as not being in conformity with the 1937 Constitution, and therefore as not having continued in force after the passing of that Constitution. First of all, I should like to refer to the sex differential by which women who were otherwise qualified—in other words they were property owners and ratepayers— were exempt unless they specially applied. It is worth looking briefly into the historical background to this particular discrimination in Ireland. The sex discrimination was actually abolished as regards this country by a British Statute which at the time applied to Ireland, namely, by the Sex Disqualification (Removal) Act, 1919. Section 1 of that Act provided that: A person should not be disqualified by sex from the liability to serve as a juror. So, in 1919 we were more advanced than we were in November, 1975, as regards the liability of both sexes to serve on a jury. Of course, there was the property qualification in 1919 as well.

The effect of that section of the 1919 Act was to make the qualification and liability for jury service the same for a woman as it was for a man. The first modification of that position in Ireland came after the establishment of the Irish Free State. It came in section 3 of the Juries (Amendment) Act, 1924, which provided that every woman to whom the section applied and who was qualified —because she had the property qualification—and liable to serve as a juror in any administrative county or county borough should be entitled if she so desired to be entered in the register of electors as exempt from jury service. She could apply to be exempted: she was in the same position as people in the Schedule to the present Bill who could be excused as of right. She had the power to opt out of jury service.

This position was modified further by the 1927 Act because in that Act it was provided that certain categories of people set out in Part II of the First Schedule would be exempt unless they specially applied for jury service, and "women" were included in this category. The 1924 Act had introduced the concept that women were liable for jury service but could opt out and the 1927 Act provided that women were exempt from jury service but could opt in if they had the property qualification. As the Minister himself said in his speech introducing the Bill, the reality was that very few women did choose to opt in, and that of those who did very few served on a jury.

Reference has been made to the relevant statistics and it is worth looking at them in a little more detail. The statistics that I propose to quote were provided by the Department of Justice from returns furnished by county registrars in relation to applications from women to have their names inserted in jurors lists for the period 1963-1973—a ten-year period. The total number of women who applied to have their names inserted on the jury list was nine. It was clear that they were all qualified as ratepayers, because those nine were inserted in the jury list, having applied. The number of those nine women who were called for jury service in this ten-year period was five and of these, two served on a criminal jury and one served on a civil jury.

It is interesting to note that in County Cavan there were two women applying to be put on the jury panel but none served in that county. There was one from Cork put on the panel but that person did not serve; one from Meath put on the panel and that person did not serve; one from Wicklow put on the panel and that person also did not serve. It was the four who put themselves on the panel in Dublin who, in fact, constituted the only women to serve on a jury in that ten-year period. Out of that group were drawn the two women who served on the criminal jury and the one women who served on a civil jury.

I would like to refer briefly again to comments by judges of the Supreme Court of this factual position. First of all, I would like to refer to the judgment of Mr. Justice Walsh who, it should be noted, was chairman of the Committee on Court Practice and Procedure which had ten years prior to that recommended by a majority the abolition of the sex differential. Mr. Justice Walsh said in the course of his judgment:

However, the provision in the Juries Act, 1927, is undisguisedly discriminatory on the grounds of sex only. It would not be competent for the Oireachtas to legislate on the basis that women by reason only of their sex are physically or morally incapable of serving and acting as jurors. The statutory provision does not seek to make any distinction between the different functions that women may fulfil and it does not seek to justify the discrimination on the basis of any social function. It simply lumps together half of the members of the adult population, most of whom have only one thing in common, namely, their sex. In my view, it is not open to the State to discriminate in its enactments between the persons subject to its laws solely upon the grounds of the sex of the persons. If a reference is to be made to the sex then the purpose of the law that makes such discrimination should be to deal with some physical or moral capacity or social function that is related exclusively or very largely to that sex only.

Again, Mr. Justice Henchy in his judgment had equally sharp comments to make. I make no excuses for putting extracts from the wisdom of the Supreme Court judges on the record because many members of my sex in Ireland feel that the statements of the judges in this case were about the most unqualified support for International Women's Year issued in Ireland during 1975. So I think it is worth putting some of this encouraging comment on to the record of the House. Mr. Justice Henchy said in his judgment:

The absence of women from juries means an unconstitutional system of selection, for two reasons. Firstly, it fails the test of representativeness because it means that some 50 per cent of the adult population will never be included in the jury lists. Granted that many of the women who made up that 50 per cent would be entitled to exemption on personal grounds (e.g. pregnancy and the like), nevertheless the fact remains that a whole swathe of the citizenry, including some 200,000 single women, will be outside the range of choice open to an accued person facing a trial by jury. Secondly, and of even greater importance, that narrowed choice means that a woman's experience, understanding and general attitude will form no part in the jury processes leading to a verdict. Whatever may have been the position at common law, or under statute up to recent times, it is incompatible with the necessary defusion of rights and duties in a modern democratic society that important public decisions—such as voting or jury verdicts involving life or liberty—should be made by male citizens only. What is missing in decisions so made is not easy to define, but reason and experience show that such decisions are not calculated to lead to a sense of general acceptability, or to carry an acceptable degree of representativeness, or to have the necessary stamp of responsibility and involvement on the part of the community as a whole. Juries recruited in that way fall short of minimum constitutional standards no less than with juries recruited entirely from female citizens.

That is a particularly interesting passage because it makes some attempt to quantify the effect on the administration of justice in this country of the fact that since 1927—and indeed effectively since the establishment of the Free State in this country —the whole assessment of criminality in the courts and the whole assessment of civil compensation has been a male assessment. I agree with Judge Henchy that it is very hard to pinpoint exactly what effect this has had on our system, exactly what effect it has had on the citizen's own respect for the administration of justice and to that extent citizens feel they are getting real social justice. I have no doubt, as a barrister, that it makes a considerable difference to practising barristers who address a jury whether they are addressing an all-male jury or whether they are addressing a representative jury of male and female citizens. The type of chords struck, the evocative terms used, by advocates in addressing a jury are geared to an all-male audience. They appeal to the male jury in a certain way both when it comes to assessing criminality and guilt and also when it comes to assessing civil compensation.

It is worth at least nothing—even if we are not capable of accurately and scientifically assessing its implications—the fact that widows who have lost their husbands, that parties who have brought action for serious damages for injury to themselves or to other members of their families, have had the narrow assessment of a male jury—have not had the contribution, the thoughtfulness, the balance of any female input into that assessment. That, I think, is an aspect which has not received enough attention; which has not occurred in many instances either to members of the legal profession or to the Government or the Oireachtas down these years. I think it is worth underlining. It certainly was an aspect which was brought very forceably to the attention of the Commission on the Status of Women which reported on the position of women. It was made clear in the report that all the women's organisations which had been contacted had emphasised that they wished to have this discrimination removed and that they wished to have the responsibility, the duty and the burden of jury service carried also by female citizens in the country.

Business suspended at 5.30 p.m. and resumed at 7 p.m.

Before business was suspended I was outlining the very-difficult-to-quantify aspects of the invidious discrimination whereby women were exempt from jury service unless they specially applied. I pointed to statistics from 1963-1973 which showed that in practice women were virtually never enrolled on a jury list or called for jury service, so that the whole assessment of criminality and the whole assessment of civil compensation in serious accident cases was an entirely male assessment. I have made reference to the judgments of the Supreme Court which concluded that this discrimination was in conflict with Article 40 of the Constitution and contrary to the whole concept of citizenship.

Taking the second main discrimination which existed in the 1927 Act— and which was also found unconstitutional by the Supreme Court in the judgment last December—I think it is worth examining the nature of the property qualification because, of course, it was not a property qualification based on wealth as such. It was much more anomalous and more strange and bizarre than that. It was a property qualification based on a certain rateable valuation. So, in order to qualify and be liable for jury service, you had to be an owner of land of a certain rateable value. Consequently, a very wealthy man who happened to have an apartment or penthouse suite would not be liable for jury service. The property qualification did not even have the merit of being a logical qualification or limitation based on wealth as such.

In his judgment in the Supreme Court Mr. Justice Walsh in particular showed that this type of qualification was contrary to the provisions of the Constitution which provided that Ireland is a democratic State and contrary to the concept of equality of citizens and of their participation in the State. I would like to refer briefly to the part of his judgement which relates to this aspect. He states:

The property qualification undoubtedly discriminates between those citizens who have the qualifications and those who have not and does so solely upon the basis of the amount of the poor law valuation of property in a particular district. This property qualification could not conceivably be said to refer to the physical or moral capacity of a prospective juror. Can it seriously be suggested that a person who is not the rated occupier of any property or who is not the rated occupier of property of a certain value is less intelligent or less honest or less impartial than one who is so rated? The answer can only be in the negative. Can such a discrimination be based on social function? Just as a man's intelligence and honesty is not directly proportionate or proportionate at all to the poor law valuation of his house or lands which seems to be the underlying assumption of the property qualification, it cannot be said that such a qualification marks him out as having a social function which makes him more fitted for jury service than another, if indeed, it does in any way constitute a social function within the meaning of Article 40, section 1, of the Constitution.

If a case could be made for having a property qualification it could not reasonably be confined to one particular type of property. It would be just as rational to suggest that jury service should be confined to the owners of motor cars of over a certain horse-power or motor cars of more than a certain value. This particular type of property qualification totally ignores the realities of the wealth. A man may be a most highly qualified person for jury service and may indeed be a very wealthy man and not be the rated occupier of any property. On the other hand, the rated occupier of property may be illiterate and poverty-stricken. He may even be a person of unsound mind.

All five judges of the Supreme Court gave judgment. Although the judgment of Mr. Justice Budd was very brief, he nevertheless ruled that the Act was unconstitutional and did not continue in force after 1937 on the two grounds, that of property qualification and the sex differential. The interesting thing is that, once the judges of the Supreme Court have pronounced on both the sex differential and the property qualification, it seems hard to believe we could have continued such an archaic, unjust and discriminatory system so long. I was surprised that the Minister did not make more reference to this in his speech introducing the Bill, not so much an apology because apologies are not really what is called for, but perhaps some indication of awareness that we need to be much more conscious of the need for up-dating and monitoring our institutions. In particular we must ensure that our laws conform to principles of social justice and principles of equality and will not in themselves undermine public confidence in our system. I think we have enough troubles and difficulties without allowing the system of law itself to fall into disrepute because it has not kept pace with modern concepts and modern thinking.

I should like now to talk briefly about the importance of trial by jury both in criminal cases and in civil cases. Happily, the concept cannot be under serious challenge in criminal cases because it is guaranteed in Article 38 of the Constitution, except in the case of minor offences tried in the District Court or offences under military law or where there are special criminal courts in operation. However, it is worth noting the fact that we have a Special Criminal Court in operation in this country since the end of May, 1972—for almost four years. I sometimes hear the question asked: what is the real difference; is it not an equally fair trial? You have a panel of three judges in the Special Criminal Court; what is the basic difference between trial in the Special Criminal Court and a trial by a jury in a criminal case?

One important difference is the nature of the whole proceeding. If you do not have a jury then you tend to have a very inbred sort of proceeding. You tend to have a great deal of discussion about admissibility of documents. You have judges on a panel who have a very difficult task—a task which I do not envy them, and which I think they have carried out in an admirable way in the present Special Criminal Court—the task of assessing whether a document should be admissible or not, and if they decide that it should be admissible then deciding what weight should be given to particular evidence or a particular document or statement. The whole proceeding is a very technical one. The accused, one could almost say, is practically forgotten and the essential focus is on legal argument between lawyers and judges and not at all addressed to a panel of citizens so that they may assess the element of criminality and of guilt. So that they may be, as Judge Griffin said, interposed between the State and the citizen a panel of your peers, of your fellow-citizens, a lay panel, an inexpert panel, an untutored panel—but in the end, I believe, the last and the important resource in a democracy to prevent us from being in danger of becoming a State dictatorship, from becoming a country which has lost this participation by citizens.

I think it is worth reminding ourselves of the basic values of a trial by jury, because the immediate danger of the continued operation of the Special Criminal Court is that it will become acceptable as the norm and this is not the intention of Article 38 of the Constitution. It is clear in Article 38 that the Special Criminal Court is to be introduced in extraordinary circumstances.

I am afraid the background the Senator has been making is ocupying too much of her theme. We are dealing here with a Bill which is concerned with the manner in which juries should be formed and while it is proper to refer to the question of when juries are appropriate and when they are not, it would be going outside the scope of this debate to discuss in any detail the operations of the Special Criminal Court and the fact that it sits without a jury.

I accept that, and since I could speak on that subject for many hours the warning is well conceived. I shall deal shortly with some points raised by Senator Eoin Ryan regarding civil juries, but I think that it is relevant on the Second Stage of this Bill to reinforce the value of trial by jury, to reinforce the necessity for having a good, impartial and random system of trial by jury and point to the fact that we have had two different strands of weakness in this respect. The first is that we have had a Juries Act for almost 50 years which has not been based on a random selection of the citizens in the country; which has been discriminatory in two highly arbitrary and invidious ways; and, secondly, we now have in existence for reasons that I do not intend to go into, a Special Criminal Court which tries very serious charges without a jury and which is creating the danger of it becoming acceptable as the norm. That would be an immense loss to the democratic texture of life in this country.

Turning now to the concept of the civil jury: my colleague here—also a colleague in the Law Library— Senator Eoin Ryan, for reasons that are at least to some extent related to his other occupations, made a strong plea for the abolition of the jury in accident cases and running-down cases in the civil courts. This was, to say the least of it, special pleading, because I certainly would agree with him that the assessment of damages in the civil courts is about the most inefficient, lengthy, dilatory, expensive and unjust—in the broad sense— system that I can think of, giving compensation to people for suffering loss or injury in road traffic accidents. I have read several learned reports to this effect; I know that the systems in Canada, in Australia, in the parts of the United States where they have reformed the law are better; in many ways lawyers in other countries look at the system here as being an incredibly wasteful method of providing for compensation in accident cases. However, I do not think that the worst aspect of it is the fact that the assessment is by a civil jury. If the system as a whole were to be reformed—and I would welcome this very much—by the introduction of a concept of strict liability up to a certain amount and whatever way that might be arranged——

Did the Senator canvass that view in the Law Library?

There are some people there who share that view, not many but some. But if there were to be a concept of strict liability up to a certain amount so that you avoided all the delay and difficulty and ultimate lack of justice (as it is meaningful to the citizens in the sense that he gets compensation within a period of a maximum of two years of the date of the date of the accident) it would then be possible to have a minority of cases in which it would be appropriate to have a court proceeding to assess compensation going beyond that limit of strict liability because of allegation of special fault and because that fault would have to be assessed. If this were the case I would argue that all the reasons for having a jury are reinforced. If one goes beyond the strict liability test and wants to go into court and establish the principle of fault—which would involve higher compensation than that which one would be entitled to under the strict liability system—the best filter of that is a filter of one's fellow citizens, a filter not of professional judges or assessors but a lay panel or jury well instructed on the criteria. I would maintain that the arguments for retaining the system of trial by jury, and indeed for reintroducing it in all our higher criminal courts and for retaining it in the civil courts, are very strong.

I should like now to refer to the provisions of this Juries Bill. As I said in opening, I welcome the Bill and think it is very appropriate that it be a comprehensive Bill which has repealed earlier Juries Acts so that is is possible for us to find within one statute the provisions relating to juries. I also welcome the extension of jury service to all citizens on the electoral roll between the ages of 18 and 70 years, with the right of those between 65 and 70 years to exempt themselves on application. I do not share any of the apprehensions that some other Senators have expressed about extending the responsibility of jury service to citizens of 18 years and over. This is greatly to be welcomed. I know that it is the practice in other jurisdictions and therefore we are not really carving any particularly new and untravelled path but it is to be welcomed none the less.

Young people in this country already have a good deal of responsibility. They can take very important decisions, as has been pointed out. They can take the decision to marry at what may appear to be too young an age; they can vote, make wills and can assume other sorts of responsibilities and liabilities, and it is appropriate that they have and share the responsibility of serving on a jury. I strongly agree with the Minister in his speech introducing this Bill when he said that it was important that young people participate in the administration of justice in this way and become involved as part of their civic responsibility.

Here again, it would be important that we have a proper educational background and preparation for this; a creation of awareness of the responsibilities of a citizen, not by teaching an artificial course for one or two hours a week called "civics" but by pervading the whole of the educational system with the sense of its being a preparation for the responsibilities of citizenship and for adult life. One of these responsibilities is, of course, the responsibility and duty of serving on the jury, and it is commendable that citizens be called to serve on the jury from the age of 18 years onwards. I say this particularly because, as I mentioned earlier, the Minister has not played safe by trying to introduce a majority verdict in criminal cases. I welcome this very much. It reinforces the whole balance of the criminal trial that there must be proof by the prosecution beyond reasonable doubt, beyond the doubt of any member of the jury that the accused was guilty. I would prefer that certain people who had, in fact, committed criminal offences escaped than that we modify that principle and convicted even one innocent person of a criminal offence when it was not warranted.

There were a number of small points which I am forced to raise on this Stage because I understand we are taking Committee Stage tomorrow and therefore there will not be an adequate period in which to think out the text of amendments. One point that I would like the Minister to clarify in his reply is in section 8 relating to disqualification. It is provided in section 8 (b) (ii) that:

A person shall be disqualified for jury service if on conviction of an offence in any part of Ireland—

(b) he has at any time in the last ten years—

(ii) been detained in Saint Patrick's Institution or in a corresponding institution in Northern Ireland.

I wondered whether there was any minimum time intended there? I know that the purpose of committing to St. Patrick's is to commit for substantial periods, but in practice this may not happen. It could be that someone who was detained in St. Patrick's for a brief period of time would find himself disqualified for ten years from jury service. I would be grateful if the Minister would comment on that because it may be that a minimum period should be inserted in order to avoid any harshness and possible risk of penalties under section 36 of the Bill.

There is provision for informing jurors by notice accompanying the jury summons of the provisions of sections 6, 7, 8, 9, 35 and 36 of the Bill. This is an important improvement on the position under the Juries Act, 1927. Also it follows from the fact that a person would not be liable to any penalties for evading jury service if he did not receive notice that he must appear for jury service at least two weeks before the particular date that one can take it that there will be at least two weeks' notice, which is an improvement on the four days' notice in the 1927 Act. I strongly support the recommendation of the Committee on Court Practice and Procedure that the jury should be given written instructions, written information about their role as a jury when they are called for jury service. I refer to the paragraph of the Committee on Court Practice and Procedure in this regard. Paragraph 33 of the Report provides:

The Committee note that although the functions and duties of jurors are explained to them by the trial judge, this is usually done in his summing up at the conclusion of the case. They further note that in the USA in some cases it is the practice to provide a booklet of instructions to jurors. They are agreed that it is desirable that advance instructions and information should be made available to jurors and feel that this would be a help to them in the discharge of their function. They recommend accordingly that a brief explanatory list of instructions and of information concerning jury service be issued to each juror either at the time he receives a preliminary notice or is summoned for service. Such instructions might, if feasible, be printed on the back of the notice of summons.

Just as the juror should know whether he is exempt or disqualified from jury service, he should also have simple instructions of what is expected of him as a juror and what rights he has, for example, to ask questions or to satisfy himself as to the evidence in a particular case. This is particularly important when we are extending the range of people who would be liable for jury service, and when we are providing that comparatively young citizens—people of 18 years and over—will be liable for jury service. It is unfair to expect them to have a comprehension of what their role will be and it is inadequate to leave it to the trial judge (usually in his direction to the jury, in summing up at the end of a criminal trial) to explain the role of a jury. It is much too haphazard a system because it relies on the personality and on the concern of the particular judge. It does not meet the necessity for instructions to be furnished to jurors prior to their attendance at the trial.

I welcome the fact that jurors will be selected from a panel by balloting in open court and not under the present system. I would like to ask the Minister to elaborate on the type of powers which he proposes to exercise under section 27 of the Bill which provides:

With a view to securing consistency in the administration of this Act, the Minister may issue instructions to county registrars with regard to the practice and the procedure to be adopted by them in the discharge of their duties under this Act: but nothing in this section shall authorise the Minister to issue any instruction as to whether particular persons should or should not be summoned for service as jurors or, if summoned, should or should not be excused from attendance in accordance with the summons.

I welcome the fact that the Bill places a good deal of discretion in the county registrar to decide whether to excuse a person from jury service. That is a flexible system. It prevents a person from having to come into court and then be excused by the judge for good reason. This is an improvement, but there is a danger there would be a lack of standardisation, that there would be a lack of equal operation of this throughout the country. It will depend very much on the personality and approach of the individual county registrars. Therefore, I assume that the Minister is looking in this particular section for power to issue standardising instructions.

There are two aspects of this I would like to know about: one is, whether these would be instructions that would be binding on the county registrar?— I am not sure what the legal status of instructions of this sort is—and secondly, that they would be made available to the public? Depending on the Minister's answer to these two questions, has he considered the possibility of doing this by means of a ministerial order, by regulations, which would be printed and available? I appreciate that the Minister is not looking for power to interfere in a particular case and to give judgment on whether one particular person or a number of particular people should be excused from jury service or not. But if the object is to standardise the procedure, the general approach should be known to citizens and not just known privately to county registrars around the country; it should be known to those who would like, for example, to monitor the operation of this Juries Bill. Since this is the provision which will be of very considerable importance to, for example, mothers of young children, pregnant women, people with considerable household problems, people presumably with business problems, who would find it a real hardship to serve on a jury for a particular period, it is a matter of very real public interest and should be made known to citizens generally.

I welcome the extension of the challenges in civil and criminal cases by parties in a civil case and by the accused in criminal cases. I welcome even more the fact that the prosecution are now placed on an equal footing with the accused, and that the prosecution also has seven peremptory challenges and no facility to order any number of jurors to stand by as under the 1927 Act.

On the question of the persons excusable as of right under Part II of the Schedule, I should like to consider whether I am totally in support of the various categories. The Minister has allowed a broad range of excusable categories. One category I would like to have clarification on is that of fulltime students at any institution. I take it from the way the paragraph is put together that the head or principal teacher of a college or university or other educational institution can be exempt as of right and then any professor, lecturer or member of the teaching staff of any such institution must get the certificate, and that any student can be excused as of right? At the top, the head is excused as of right; in the middle, the people have to be certified as engaged in some essential activity, and then students would be excused as of right on application? The Minister, I am sure, will clarify that point.

I would propose either to introduce, or if they have already been tabled, to support amendments to this Bill to allow for expenses of jurors. The Minister is making an extremely dangerous point and is creating a precedent that one should be very reluctant to follow by saying, as he did in his introductory speech, that payment ought not to be made for doing a civic duty, particularly when it will arise only very infrequently.

This calls to mind the duty of Senators to be present in this House. It is a civic duty, presumably, of Senators whether they be nominated or elected to be present. Yet we are not here very frequently but we are very well paid, in Irish terms, for the privilege of being here discharging our civic duty. That example makes nonsense of the so-called underlying principle which the Minister is putting forward here. It is not a civic duty in the sense of something noble. It is something for which citizens are liable to incur quite severe penalties for evading. It is only realistic and will only increase respect for the function of serving on a jury if people do not have to suffer hardship in discharging this civic responsibility. It is, of course, burdensome, and that is one of the reasons why women took advantage of the fact that they were exempted unless they applied specially. If men had been in the same position they would have done likewise.

It is burdensome. It has been described as both a privilege and a liability. It is certainly onerous in many circumstances and it is fair to look at the comparable consolidating legislation in the United Kingdom, the Juries Act, 1974, where there is provision for payment for jury service. Under section 19 of that Act it is provided that:

Subject to the following provisions of this section, a person who serves as a juror shall be entitled, in respect of his attendance at court for the purpose of performing jury service, to receive payments at the prescribed rates and subject to any prescribed conditions, by way of allowance—

(a) for travelling and subsistence, and

(b) for financial loss, where in consequence of his attendance for that purpose he has incurred any expenditure (otherwise than on travelling and subsistence) to which he would not otherwise be subject or he has suffered any loss of earnings, or of benefits under the enactments relating to national insurance and social security, which he would otherwise have made or received.

The section goes on to make administrative provision for this.

Clearly in very similar circumstances in another jurisdiction it is felt that anybody performing the civic duty of being a juror is entitled to be paid travelling and subsistence payments and any loss of earnings, and so on, which can be attributed to his service as a juror. Therefore I intend either to put forward or support an amendment being tabled to provide for the remuneration of jurors. I shall also be either supporting or tabling an amendment to provide for instructions to be furnished to jurors as to their duties, and I await clarification on the questions I have raised in relation to detention in St. Patrick's and to the categories of persons exempt as of right under the Schedule to the Bill.

Aside from those minor matters which I think could be improved I would reiterate that despite the completely unjustifiable delay in bringing in reform of the Juries Act, despite the fact that I am quite convinced that if there had not been a Supreme Court judgment we would still be waiting at least a year and possibly longer for the Juries Bill to come before us, I welcome the Bill and the way in which it is framed. I support its provisions and its approach to jury service.

Like many other speakers who have spoken I, too, welcome this comprehensive legislation which in my opinion is long overdue. The widening of the scope of persons who can be appointed to serve as jurors is a welcome development. Under the 1927 Act liability for jury service was restricted mainly to the self-employed. This, for the most part meant small farmers or small-business-type persons. In a rural area, such as where I come from, this could have imposed a very great hardship because many of those people were not in a position to appoint others to carry on their businesses or farms in their absence, which sometimes was for as long as a week. In many instances they did not have the opportunity of serving as jurors. Nevertheless they were obliged to attend daily. Because very often the schedule of public transport did not facilitate them to be in attendance in court at the proper hours of sitting they found it necessary to hire taxis. If three or four persons went together and only one was called for service, this resulted in three or four men aimlessly ambling around the town for a day at considerable expense to themselves. I will not go into the other details but I think the Minister knows what I am referring to.

Sometimes it could be considered as a glorified holiday but I do not think the people at home considered it in that light. I know there are farmers who attended the spring sitting of the Circuit Court when, perhaps, they should have been putting in the crops. When it came to the autumn and the weather broke at harvest time they were often just that fortnight late in reaping the harvest. Many times the loss of the harvest was due to the fact that they were absent in, say, Wicklow at the Circuit Court when they should have been performing their own duties at home.

I had great reservations about the method in which jurors were summoned. I know the number of serving jurors was limited but at the same time there were instances of persons being called two years in succession. This created quite an amount of annoyance to the categories of people to whom I have referred.

I would like to refer to the Supreme Court decision in September regarding the virtual exclusion of women from jury service being unconstitutional. This is something which I welcome. I am sure the House will appreciate that there are many well educated, well intentioned women of integrity who would be ably equipped to perform the duty of serving as jurors.

On the other hand, I too would have mixed feelings about certain categories of women serving as jurors. I refer particularly to married women with young children at home, or women who care for the sick or elderly, for whom jury service would create a very grave hardship. These categories should be excusable under this new Act. Women who are pregnant may not have the stamina to serve for perhaps a week on a jury. This is another category which should be excusable.

There is also the question of the extension of the age limit from 65 to 70. While there are many retired people who would be able to serve on a jury, there are many others who suffer from heart ailments, diabetes and so on and for those jury service would create a grave hardship. Therefore, they should ipso facto be excusable as of right.

I am not completely in favour of a blanket extension of the age limit of 18 to 21. While that age group is eligible to vote and are in many instances capable and responsible, one needs experience of life before serving on a jury. I do not think a person in that age group would have the necessary experience. I refer in particular to civil cases such as car accidents where the jury member in the 18 to 21 age group might never have driven a car and would not be qualified to give the type of reasoned decision which many car accident cases entail.

Students are excusable under this Act but no mention has been made of the case of a post-primary student who is following an apprenticeship course on a day-release basis. These could be considered as part-time students and should be excusable as of right. The Minister has made provision for the payment of these students but they should be excusable because the loss of a week's study to serve as a juror might ultimately mean success or failure in a final examination.

Would the Minister tell the Seanad if representations by public representatives to county registrars are to be in order? With the extension of the eligibility for jury service I am sure public representatives will be asked to make representations in many instances. There is such a thing as political ‘pull' and everyone has his or her political affiliations.

I do not know what the Senator is talking about.

The Minister is probably above all that, but those of us who serve in the field are sometimes expected to pull the rabbits out of the hat.

I regret that the Bill does not provide for the payment of jurors. I know that it is the civic duty of responsible citizens to serve the community as best they can. To serve on a jury is a responsible duty, but in many instances it creates great financial hardship. On many occasions I have been asked to make representations in regard to the payment of jurors. I suggest that an amendment be made to the Bill in this respect. I know the financial implications would probably be enormous but exceptions could be made in certain instances and expenses allowed.

Finally, in regard to the section of the Bill dealing with persons excusable as of right, I suggest that members of local authorities, who already devote much of their time to civic duties in an unpaid capacity, should be added to the category of exempted persons.

I welcome this Bill, which is long overdue.

Very briefly, I welcome this Bill. Of all that has been said so far, the point which impressed me most was the removal of the restrictions of jury service in regard to sex discrimination and the property qualification. This Bill should be treated in the context of general law reform. We are discussing the Bill in a general, social context in which there is a very poorly developed sociology of law. Those of us who are involved in sociology are now of the opinion that there is a distinction between legalistic norms and norms of more general social interpretation. I do not think that one can so readily achieve justice by interposing a filter, that is, a jury, between the citizen and the court. I am sure this filter will be the better by reason of women being eligible to serve on juries; that it will be the better because the property qualification is gone. Yet, I would question whether the jury system itself is all that it is made out to be, whether the jury system can deliver to the citizen the protection which is often claimed for it.

I would also question, where juries have been chosen, whether it is possible to draw a good random sample from the population to try a person in such a way that his peers will be trying him. There is the point, for instance, that people who have been found guilty of certain crimes previously are excluded.

I join with Senators who have been in favour of lowering the age to 18 years. I share none of the reservations of the Senators who suggest that people in this age group might not be mature sufficiently. There is no basis for suggesting that responsibility is a matter of age. We have no proof whatsoever that such is the case.

When one speaks of experience, what is meant? Is one speaking about an accumulation of experience over one's lived-out experience? I suggest that in the case of a young person being present on a jury he is bringing to a jury something which is quite valuable. He may not have the same jaundiced view of a much older person. For that reason, I think it was a good decision to reduce the age to 18 years.

Finally, I, too, join with Senator Robinson who sought clarification on the position of university lecturers, for instance, I find myself somewhat confused by that part of the Bill which deals with the position of a lecturer within a university as to whether he will seek the permission of the president—the Minister used the phrase that people within universities would be regarded as mutatis mutandis as is featured in the public service—or is he to seek the permission of the head of his department or of the head of his college? Perhaps the confusion exists in my mind because I have not listened sufficiently closely to the Minister. I would appreciate his clarifying the point.

Just a few sentences as usual: I should like to add my voice to that of all Senators who spoke from this side of the House. Any points which should be made on the Bill have been made already.

In fairness it should be pointed out that it was concern for women that was the cause of their not being compelled to serve on a jury previously, that it was not male domination or sex discrimination. I welcome the extension of the jury service to all on the electoral list, be they male or female. Since this is an age when women are demanding so many rights and think they are being discriminated against, it is only right that they should take on equal responsibilities. At the same time there are many women for whom jury service will mean great hardship. It would be a much better system if it were like the political levy in the Labour Party whereby women could opt out. After all, whether you are Fianna Fáil or Fine Gael and you are a member of a trade union you have to pay up but if you do not want to pay you are allowed to opt out. That might be a fairer way of doing it. Recently a number of women were called for jury service. I have been told it was about 90 in the west of Ireland and that 60 of them already had asked to be excused.

I agree with the Senators who have advocated remuneration for jurors by way of travelling expenses, subsistence allowance, compensation for loss of wages and so on.

Dublin citizens, I expect, will welcome the extension. I know one man who is only 45 years of age but who has already been called to serve five times. By the extension of the numbers who now can be called, people like him can expect some bit of relaxation and may not expect to be called so often. Many of the provisions in the Bill are to be welcomed.

I have grave reservations about certain aspects of the Bill. I wonder if the people who contested the case in the Supreme Court which was responsible for these proposed changes will be greeted with open arms by their fellow women folk. We have almost come to the time when women in certain instances will be clamouring to be liberated from the women "libbers" if things go to such extremes. I am not sure it is what the majority of women would wish for.

The Bill will certainly be welcomed by those people who have been frequently caught for jury service up to now, that is those with high rateable valuations in property. It certainly will broaden the scope of people who will be liable for jury service but the Minister has gone from one extreme to the other. The most important quality that a juror can have is to be able to comprehend the arguments put up in court both by the prosecution and by the defence. This Bill does not make any provision for a person's literacy. The old law did not do so either, but it is a reasonable assumption that a person with a rateable valuation of such an amount that entitles him to be called for jury service is reasonably well educated, to say the least. I do not wish to propound the theory that merely because one is a person of property one is automatically intelligent and well-educated, but it is a fair assumption that the vast majority of people in that bracket are well-educated and have a reasonable amount of intelligence; otherwise they could not keep their properties for long. At the moment, we can have an illiterate person whose IQ could be very low——

The First Schedule rules out illiterate people. An illiterate person may not serve on a jury.

But a person with a very low standard of intelligence could be summoned in for jury service and such a person would not be able to comprehend the arguments put forward. Consequently, we could get some dreadful decisions. We could also, because of the wider scope and the lowering of the age limit, get people who might be antisocial by nature and who might cause a number of court cases to flounder purely by having disagreements among the juries. On that point, I should like to ask the Minister if there is any provision for or any hope in the future of introducing a system such as was introduced in Britain in recent years whereby a jury decision did not have to be unanimous but could be decided by a majority. I think nine out of 12 is sufficient for a decision to be carried. It would seem that if we are increasing the numbers of those likely to be selected we should make provision for a majority decision to be carried.

I agree with previous speakers who stated that it is unfair to expect people to bear the cost of attending a court. They should get some travelling expenses and subsistence allowances.

The section dealing with the payment of expenses to employees is quite good. But I think it should be extended a bit further and that at least self-employed people should be given travelling expenses. I know it is a civic duty and that people should be privileged to serve upon a jury. But, notwithstanding that, they surely are entitled to their expenses for that service. Skilled tradesmen or business executives, whose absence from their places of work may cause serious injury to that industry or that profession should be exempt from jury service. The wording is a bit too definite in that respect.

Finally, I wish to refer to the conditions under which jurors have to work. In my own city of Waterford in recent years there has not been a courthouse available for court cases involving juries. Surely people who do this service are entitled to adequate facilities. We had an astounding case last summer where a court case had to be abandoned after several days because the improvised court room was so small and so stuffy that one of the jurors fell asleep after several days of the trial. The whole thing had to be abandoned. This was absolutely scandalous.

Previous to that, for several years the court cases involving juries had to be held outside of Waterford city causing grave inconvenience to members of the law profession, jurors and the public in general. I should like to see a better deal all around for jurors, the legal profession and the public in general.

I should like to join my voice with that of the other Senators who have spoken. One of the reasons I find the Bill so welcome is that it emphasises, and in a way it copperfastens, our belief that justice is best discharged by that version of democracy: 12 good men and true. There was some agitation about the cumbersomeness of the jury system. It seems to me that, by and large, if democracy is to mean anything, there is a great deal to be said for people being tried by their peers. While I agree with almost everything Senator Deasy said I really take exception to his remark that people of comparatively low education are thereby less able to try a case in court and to judge their fellowman.

Low intelligence.

The Senator started on illiteracy and low intelligence but it is very hard to establish a test of intelligence.

Paying rates is not a test of intelligence.

Evading rates and tax could be a type of high and cunning intelligence but it would not necessarily make a man a better juror. As far as Senator Deasy's speech is concerned, I agree with everything he said with that one small proviso. The notion of Rathgar suddenly being deprived of its Murphys on a certain morning or Ballyferriter being deprived of its Sullivans or Ringsend being deprived of its Kavanaghs or whatever, in order that these men, because they are on the register, come forward to sit down and judge a case with their peers is a fine exercise in democracy. It is democracy of the political kind finding itself expressed in the juridical way. It is the way a democracy should work. The notion of a set of specialists sitting there—psychiatrists, psychologists, the lot—judging their fellowmen, I would distrust intensely, just as I would the notion of having in the crucial areas just one man skilled in the law making these judgments. The jury system is a fine system. I am very pleased that this Bill copperfastens it.

I do not intend to make a long speech on this at all. The spirit of the Bill is admirable and indeed the letter of the Bill seems to be in almost every instance admirable also. I am very pleased to see that. The notion that women can cower behind the shield of their sex in this matter has ended. They will have to come out and work equally with men in this area. It is extremely important that young people are involved for the second reason that the Minister gives in his introductory speech, that is, if we want our younger people to be impressed by the justice of our society, political and juridical, they have to be involved. The age of 18 is by no means too young. The fact that they may be from time to time conscripted for jury service will be, not just symbolically, but in real terms, a way of bringing home to them that every member of a democratic society has a role to play, a burden to bear in the matter. That sense of involvement, the involvement of everybody, which is at the centre of the Bill, which is the spirit of it, is something that one cannot speak too highly of. In fact, the purpose of the Bill is to spread the responsibility and the sense of duty that the citizen should feel about, not just the election of parliamentary representatives, but basically the discharge of civic responsibility.

The only reservation I have about it may seem a footling one and is perhaps more appropriate in one sense to the Committee Stage, though it sufficiently involves the general spirit of the Bill to warrant its being raised on this Stage. The Minister has withdrawn the exemption for civil servants. He said in his speech:

In future the heads of Departments will be excusable as of right and other members of the staffs will be excusable as of right only if the head gives a certificate for this purpose. The certificate will have to state that—and I quote—"it would be contrary to the public interest for the civil servant [or other official] to have to serve as a juror because he performs essential and urgent services of public importance that cannot reasonably be performed by another or postponed". The giving of the certificate will therefore be far from a mere formality, and it will be the duty of the head of the Department to balance carefully the conflicting interests of jury service and the efficient working of the department before giving a certificate that the latter should prevail. Universities, schools and other educational institutions will be treated, mutatis mutandis, like Departments for this purpose, and in addition whole-time students will, as I have mentioned, be excusable as of right.

It seems to me that this provision is admirable in terms of spirit but—I would put this to the Minister very strongly—in terms of the working of the Bill could lead to very large time wasting, prevarication, and difficulty. I hope the civil servants present will not take it as in any way pejorative towards their particular Ministry that office work, by and large, can be passed from one to another, that people can take in the slack if a man is out, if he is sick, and so forth. Files can be handled by people who have handled them before and young people may be broken in by looking at files that they have not looked at before and so forth.

It seems to me that in the teaching area this is extremely difficult. I suggest that teachers, by and large, should be de facto exempt except when they are on vacation. If somebody is teaching in a national or a secondary school and it is coming up to to the leaving certificate it is just possible that that teacher is bored with his activities, that he would like to get a few days off for adjudicating on some lurid or even dull piece of juridical procedure, trying some case, and somebody has either to sit in and look after his class —I am speaking really on the classroom floor—either hold down his class while the class swot up their work, or some unfortunate junior assistant mistress is conscripted to hold down the job when he is on jury service. I would argue that in that case the students will suffer. I would argue also that the job of a teacher, whether he be a university, a secondary, a vocational or a primary teacher, is with his students. That is his service to the community.

I accept that teachers would probably make very good jurers. This is a very strong case but, particularly, it becomes a strong case when you look at the fact that it is the head of the department who has to make his representations in this situation. You could almost see a situation where you would have a teacher who wanted to do the jury service bit, the head of his department saying no, that he must stay and teach the children and the county registrar would have to adjudicate as between these two demands. There are so many county registrars that there would be a terrific amount of variation from county to county in this situation. There could also be a situation where a head of a department or a headmaster in a school might say that that person is so inadequate anyway that it would be much better if he was sent to do jury service than have him make a mess of the educational activity of the school.

It seems to me that that particular situation which perhaps would work as regards the civil service is not appropriate to the whole area of education. If I have to give a series of eight lectures on Dickens and have them prepared when I am called for jury duty I think it is a grave injustice, assuming that I can do it well, to my students, that somebody else has to step in and take over that responsibility. I am not sure that the heads of the departments or the headmasters can be trusted to act with total justice and equity in this matter. Therefore, I would argue that teachers, except during vacation, should be kept out of this area, that they should be absolved from service on juries. The same would apply to other professions in which I have less personal involvement, to doctors, psychiatric workers, social workers and so forth. The spirit of the measure is admirable but in practice it could assemble more problems than it is designed to disperse.

With regard to the question of remuneration for people serving on juries I am impressed by the argument that they should get remuneration. "Payment" is the word that is used. I think that is wrong and that it loads the dice in the situation. They should get compensation, some kind of remuneration. It is stated in the Bill that people are to be involved in jury service, young people, women and a far larger spectrum of the community. If they are to be involved in jury service because that will make them better citizens, that is a good argument, but if they are to be involved in such a way as persistently to be out of pocket that will make them worse citizens, I am sorry to say. If I quote Edmund Burke on the matter he said:

Men act from motives relative to their interests, not from highsounding metaphysical phrases.

If you want to make better citizens of our people in terms of this jury service you will not do so by bringing them along, incarcerating them in the kind of rooms that Senator Deasy has referred to, not granting them compensation of any kind and sending them home with the very warm feeling that they have done their duty by the country but with each one having to say to his wife: "I am sorry for the last fortnight we have not made any money and I have not been compensated in any way." That will not make them better citizens.

While I agree with the spirit of that I think the letter of the thing will frustrate the spirit of the thing. I am not saying that they should be paid. I think that is wrong and that the phraseology of "payment" is quite inappropriate either in the Bill or in the Minister's speech. Decent compensation for their time should be granted. Then they will serve well and they will be better citizens. The notion that they come along and bear the whole cost themselves is in itself counter-productive. It runs counter to the spirit of the thing. As a piece of legislation, it is not only a fine piece of consolidation but it is also a most enlightened extension of jury service as we conceived it. I urge the Minister to think again on that, not to think in terms of payment but to think in terms that if a man comes and decently, as a citizen, discharges his duty as a juror he should not end up a poorer man than when he went in. He should not come out feeling he is a sucker. He should feel that he is a citizen who has done his job, who has not gained anything by doing his job, but who has not significantly lost for having done his job as a citizen.

With these reservations, by and large, I must say it would be a boorish man or woman—one has to be very careful as the Bill is very delicate in its distinctions along these lines—who would not welcome the Bill and say that it is a good Bill, a highly enlightened one and one which will certainly work for the health of our society. That aspiration is behind it and I can see very little opposition to it as it moves through both Houses.

I would like to make my two reservations again. With regard to the teaching aspect, in fact, I suspect that the county registrar will be endlessly embarrassed by the fact that the teacher or the head of a Department will keep saying "No". In fact very few teachers will serve. The game is not worth the candle. Too much time will have to be spent trying to discover whether a teacher can serve, during term. I would say that 99 per cent of them will not. It is better, therefore, not to raise that matter but just to exclude them. There may be other professions who would be equally encumbered in this matter but I would say to cut that one out. I do not know too much about civil servants but it seems to me that they are less bound than teachers, who are bound by the human demands of their students, which is a day-to-day situation. I suggest, with regard to teachers, that they should be removed except during vacation. Sin scéal eile.

I have been convinced by the arguments I have heard that there should not be payment but decent remuneration or compensation for doing the job which would then be done joyously and well and would achieve the very high ideals adumbrated in the Minister's introductory speech. With those reservations I should like enthusiastically to welcome the Bill.

I would also like to welcome the Bill. The main thing that I would enthuse about is that all the relevant law is now under one heading and it is no longer a piecemeal situation and is no longer cumbersome. The question of embracing people from 18 to 70 years is a very good development also. However, in the case of the people of 18 years the argument could be made that one of the reasons why they are entitled to be called to jury service now is because they have the right to vote at 18 years but inherent in that argument is also the fact that they probably got the right to vote because possibly now the consensus of opinion is that the educational standards have developed to an extent that it could be said that people are much more mature now at 18.

On the other end of the scale, when it comes to the person between 65 and 70 years, who had not the benefit of the present level of education, there could be a very high number of people in that category who may, in fact, present a difficulty in the sense that they, through no fault of their own, were not fortunate enough to get the type of experience or education which would allow them to sit on a jury and have the ability to deal with unconnected facts and to make something out of them or to deal with ambivalent situations or arguments that crop up. I would have some little reservation there, not in the sense that they should not sit on the jury but that the county registrar will have a lot of say in regard to the people who constitute the jury. This worries me in the sense that some people might, in fact, have this misfortune and that it might not be adverted to sufficiently by the county registrar. After all, the idea of the jury system is to get 12 just and true men. If a person is not capable of coping with the events in a court we have not got that and we have not improved the jury system in that sense. There is still this deficiency there. I am not saying it is widespread. I have listened to people, my fellow workers with my own level of education, who have turned to me and said: "I knew before he opened his mouth that he was guilty." This is a thing which would worry me in the later age group. I would take the risk with the 18-year-olds but I would be a little bit cautious with those between 65 and 70 years because they did not have the same opportunities or the same grasp of life. Not everybody between 65 and 70, of course, would be concerned but a high percentage of them might present a problem there. Unless there is great vigilance on the part of the county registrar that may present a problem. I should like the Minister to consider that. However, I may be misinterpreting the powers of the country registrars in this regard.

I accept the view that if you have rights in a society you must have obligations also. That brings me to the matter of payment. By and large, I agree with many of the sentiments about the pay. Even the saints, I do not think, were altruistic; they were selfish in a certain way. This penalty in life now, that you must get paid for what you do, is something which is manifesting itself more than ever. Most people will do nothing for nothing nowadays and the question of what they owe society becomes very slight in their assessment of life as a whole and they do not balance their obligations against what they get from society. The idealism is one thing and the reality is another thing. There is a problem in the case of paying people.

I suppose that what the relevant section is really saying is that the continuity of employment is intact and therefore the person must get paid. There are in some industries a system for compensation for loss of earnings because people have agreed to give up overtime, shifts and so on. There are clauses written into these agreements where, if there is overtime on the day when the jury are supposed to work you lose. It is a diminishing percentage system where the overtime is going out and there is still a little bit to be done. If you do not do it there is a penal clause in the agreement. A person by appearing on a jury for one day may deny himself not only the value of a day's pay, which he will recoup because the employer will be obliged to pay it, but the employer has no obligation if the penal clause in his agreement states that he would lose the value of the overtime for a week because he did not appear for overtime. In that situation a person could lose as much as £10. I know we often make the argument about the downtrodden worker but there is also very excessive overtime in many areas. That is a substantial amount if life is geared to that sort of living. There is nothing there to say to a person, who is told to appear on a jury, that he will be paid what he loses for the day. He is paid what he has lost on the basic rate but all the conditions of his employment are not applied. I do not know if there is any way around this problem. I hope I will be pardoned if I exercise my views in a biased way on behalf of the workers.

The question of the self-employed presents a problem also. The earnings of a person in industry can be gauged some way because there are records and a way of checking, but for the person who is self-employed it is rather difficult to make a proper assessment because in many cases it is not easy to ascertain what he might or might not have made on a particular day. That does not mean that he should not be looked after.

I am glad to see the development in respect of civil servants. There are problems there and I suppose there will be difficulties—people pleading that they cannot attend and so on— but the principle is very good. This is another step forward because at one time no civil servants could contest even the local elections. That, thank God, has gone, and bringing civil servants within the scope of jury service is another forward step. I hope that this is an indication that we will soon see certain civil servants eligible to contest Dáil elections. It is encouraging to think that this development is there. I would like to congratulate the Minister again on bringing it into the Bill. I hope it is the sign of good things to come.

Finally, the coroner's jury is something that worries me. One of the difficulties about it is that suddenly somebody decides that such a jury has to be got together, people are collected at random and they are hauled into a hospital. Nobody knows who the people are, but they are all willing to serve. The deceased person's family, his dependants, may be denied access to civil law, through lack of sufficient knowledge, through an error of judgment, and because some of the jury cannot cope with all the facts. These are points that should be made.

I would like to congratulate the Minister in another respect. He answered the arguments about inconvenience. Therefore I agree with the increase in the fine and the method of dealing with people who do not turn up for jury service. The 14 days' notice is quite adequate to enable people to make adjustments and to ensure that they are not inconvenienced.

I agree with the concept that you must debate amendments. I would urge that we would not spend too long on amendments because this is a Juries Bill, and you cannot detach it from the advance in the crime rate. The report of the Commissioner of the Garda Síochána to the Minister for Justice for 1974 indicated that the crime rate had jumped by 5.5 per cent. In the civil cases also there is a big backlog of work Therefore it is necessary to speed up the passing of this legislation, so that matters of justice may be dealt with. Also the increase in the offences against property should indicate that, while we should put our amendments down, we should not haggle too long about them. There is a lot to be done in this respect.

With deference to the rather frigid temperature of the House I intend to be rather brief. Like Senator Harte I would like this legislation to pass through both Houses fairly quickly but perhaps not for the same reasons. I am concerned that we have a situation at the moment, as a result of the Supreme Court decision, where no jury trials will be held in certain areas for some time. The Title of the Juries Bill, 1975, describes very accurately what is in the Bill. I see the Bill as being a very important piece of legislation in removing discrimination, discrimination which was based on property, discrimination against women, and to an extent discrimination based on age at the lower and upper ends of the scale. To me the first named is probably the far more important. Property ownership established qualification. It did have the odd effect not only of leaving a large number of the electorate outside the scope, but because of the nature of society it also automatically excluded a number of women, since we still are in a society where the husband carries the ownership of the house. We have not got a legal commission on joint tenancy.

These discriminations are linked together very much and it is good to see in 1976 that they are being removed. It is quite incredible that they should be in any society which aimed at equality and justice. I think we did aim to rule them out, even though we have fallen very far short of achieving this so far. Many groups of our society see this Bill as very much a women's liberation Bill.

It was the court case that——

Before there was any court case I think pressure came from women's liberation organisations. I pay due credit to the people who took the court case, because it was probably the ultimate push. Over a number of years it has been accepted that we would have to have an amending Bill to deal with the situation. However I give credit to the people who took the case.

There is still quite an area of argument about whether women should or should not be on juries, something I find quite incomprehensible. It has been stated that this will not be popular with women. This is probably quite true. I do not say it will be popular, but is jury service very popular with men? Has it been all along? I do not think it has. As the Minister pointed out in his opening speech, it is an obligation, something we have to do. Therefore it should be shared equally by all fit members of society. Women, in my estimation, will constitute at least 60 per cent of that group. Therefore, they have to face up to their obligation. Senator Harte mentioned the phrase "rights and obligations". They are very much linked together, because we cannot be claiming rights and at the same time not accepting that we have obligations. They go hand in hand. Perhaps the fact that we will have to face up to this obligation will bring with it the acceptance of further rights.

It will be a very educative experience for women in the Irish society. The reason we have a situation where they had to opt in on the 1927 Act was that it was probably based on emotive thinking at the time. I remember from reading about it that it was considered that women would be too emotional and not objective in dealing with certain types of cases. That may or may not be true; but it certainly was quite ludicrous that there was a situation that half the population were automatically prevented from fulfilling their obligation to society. Women have a very real contribution to make on juries and I look forward eagerly to their playing that part. A number of them will not find it very complex. It may be very difficult for some people, but I think that they will be covered by the exemptions.

On the question of extending jury service to 18-year-olds, I think it is a non-argument. It was probably an argument three years ago when we debated whether the 18-year-olds should have the vote. But having established that by referendum, the argument that they should not serve on a jury is now a non-argument. That that is recognised once more in this Bill I welcome, and also the extension of the upper age limit. There is no doubt in my mind that an arbitrary age of 65 years as the age at which you should retire from everything is quite wrong.

The extensions of jury service to the employments that are exempted at present are also welcome. I have never been in favour of exempting local authority employees. I would have gone further than the Minister with regard to them. I would have made it a bit more difficult for them to be excluded. However they are now eligible and will have to claim inability for service. The concept is that each person has the obligation as well as the right to play his full part in our judicial system.

I was very impressed by Senator Eoin Ryan's case for the elimination of juries in civil cases. I have no legal training, but it seemed to me that he made a valid point and I would add my voice to his in asking the Minister to consider this point.

Finally, Senator Martin's interpretation of the difference between payments and compensations was perhaps a very subtle point, but basically I would come down very much in favour of some payment—remuneration or compensation, call it what you may. It means that X number of points should pass from one section to the other for jury service. We do not want to see people making money out of it, but the fact that it is not being paid may result in people looking for more loopholes than would occur if there were an adequate sort of payment.

With those few remarks I would like to add my voice to that of the other Senators and generally welcome the Bill. I think it could make a big improvement in our judicial system. It will make one section of the population face up to the reality of their obligations; it will move barriers which prevent a number of people from doing just that.

It has become colder since I stood up before and with that in mind I will reply as fully as possible but Members will agree with me if I reply as quickly as possible.

I should like to thank Senators for their welcome to the Bill and their analytical contributions. I will deal with the points as they were made.

Senator Owens welcomed the Bill as being an anti-discriminatory measure, taking the view that the present system is discriminatory, but possibly Senator Ahern put her finger on the rationale behind the present system; it was not introduced as any assertion of male dominance; in those days it was the manifestation of the idea that Big Brother knew what was best for Little Sister. In this Bill we now say that Little Sister can tell us what is best for herself.

Male chauvinist.

It is now up to Little Sister to say that what she wants to do, she can do. I am grateful to the House for agreeing to take Committee Stage tomorrow. There is an urgency about the measure because, as Senator Owens and other Senators mentioned, jury trials are held up in certain areas. There is a grey legal area as to whether juries, as constituted under the old Act, are valid or not. Some parties are prepared to accept them and cases are proceeding; in other instances they are not proceeding. The position is, of course, unsatisfactory and the Government are anxious to get the Bill through as soon as possible. I am grateful to Senators for their co-operation in that regard.

The point was made by Senator Lenihan as to whether the occupations of jurors would be shown on the new jury lists. It is the Government's intention to show the occupations. The jurors' lists will be compiled from the registers but requisitions will also be sent to the various jurors which they will be asked to return. One of the questions asks the occupation so that when the lists are compiled the occupations will be shown. Sometimes people do not return occupation but state "gentleman" instead. There are many "gentlemen" on the present jury lists and I am sure the position will continue to be the same. Parties before the court can decide whether they will accept that category or whether they want to challenge it because of the vagueness of the title.

One question which exercised the attention of all speakers was that of money for jurors. The phrase "money for jurors" is used because there has been considerable confusion and differing opinions as to what a juror should get by way of money for his service. I indicated that I considered this to be a civic duty and that is still my view: I have not heard anything to make me change my view in that regard. Senator Robinson made the point that service in the Seanad is carrying out a civic duty but it is a bad analogy because the rare instance in which a person would be called on to discharge his civic duty as serving as a juror, under the new regime, is not at all comparable to the situation of a person serving in the Seanad or on a local authority.

It is pretty bad sometimes: the Seanad adjourns for eight or nine months at a time. The Seanad does not meet all that frequently.

No, but Senator Lenihan made the point that it could well be that jury service may only come to a citizen's door perhaps once in a decade or every two decades. With all due respect to the Seanad, they never adjourn for as lengthy a period as that. Also, the demands on Senators are not confined to their duties in this House. There are many political demands on most Senators in their constituencies and in various other ways outside the House. Their general capacity to devote their full attention to earning their own living is diminished so it is right that they should be paid. That does not take from my argument that the juror is discharging his civic duty. Therefore, I do not go along with the argument that he must be paid for that duty.

Senator Harte made the point that nowadays no one wants to do anything for nothing; that the hand is out the whole time. This is not a good trend in society generally. We should take this opportunity here, if you like, of forcing citizens to give some little time to their State without having to get money in return.

Again, the question arises of how much money should be given, assuming that the principle must be conceded. It is an argument against conceding the principle when it is considered how to concede it because there are so many differing ways in which the payment would be made. Senator Martin objected to the word "payment"; other Senators mentioned "remuneration" and others "travelling expenses" and "subsistence". So there is a great deal of confusion as to what is meant by giving money to jurors.

Senator Martin instanced the occasion of the husband coming home and saying to his wife: "Sorry, dear, I have earned nothing for the past 14 days" because he had been on a long jury case. Senator Martin said in the same context that "payment" is wrong but there should be "remuneration". What should be given to that man so that he can go home and say to his wife: "Here I am, dear, I have been carrying out my duties as a citizen for four days and we are as well off at the end of it." If the juror is put in that position, he must be paid his full loss of income. If every citizen wants to be paid what he lost, I submit to the House that the burden on the Exchequer could, literally, be immense.

If a juror is paid an arbitrary daily sum, it is only a gesture as far as some people are concerned. In this case also the burden on the Exchequer could be very large and out of proportion to the benefit being given to any citizen. The Government must be realistic in this matter and bear in mind that the incidence of liability to serve on a jury will be most infrequent. The Government must consider that aspect from the point of view of considering the justice of the juror's position. If the juror will only serve very infrequently, I submit that it is reasonable to accept that injustice will not be done to that person by asking him to serve voluntarily.

In effect, we are talking of self-employed persons because the Bill provides that persons in employment or apprenticeship will be considered as being present at work or carrying on their apprenticeship while engaged in a jury trial. There is prohibition against contracting out of that obligation. Therefore, no employed person will lose wages or salary by virtue of having to do jury service.

There still remains the case of the self-employed person. Having regard to the exclusions in the Bill, the number of self-employed persons will be quite small. Generally, they will be self-employed business people or, in rural districts, they may be farmers who are self-employed. Again, should any self-employed person anticipate that having to serve on a jury will put him into a position of undue hardship or be a real injustice to him, he has the right under section 9 (2) to apply to the county registrar to be excused. Therefore, it is not absolute that a certain self-employed person must serve and thereby do himself immense harm. Should he reasonably anticipate any such consequence he can apply for exclusion. The county registrars are reasonable men and I have no doubt that in an appropriate case would grant exclusion.

Why can he not be given the civil service standard of travel and subsistence.

That will not meet the argument the Senator was making of the juror returning to his wife after serving four days on a jury saying: "Sorry, dear, I have not got anything for the last four days and the larder has to be a bit bare this weekend." That does not meet that situation.

But he is not positively out of pocket. It is in the negative sense; he is not positively out of pocket and has not positively lost.

Again, there are many things we must do in life and expenses we must meet. That person would incur certain expenses to survive for that day whether he was on a jury or not. It is a fine question as to whether his position is so altered to his prejudice that the State should intervene to give him something which might, in his financial context be only literally—forgive the term—buttons. On the other hand, an accumulation of buttons right throughout the State for every person summoned to do jury service could be a substantial item as far as the Exchequer is concerned. The Committee on Court Practice and Procedure recommended that there should be a payment of £2 per day.

Ten years ago.

It agreed that jurors should be remunerated on a reasonable basis and recommended this to be at the rate of £2 per day. I have accepted practically everything in their recommendations with the exception of that. With respect to the committee, it in no way takes from the praise which I give them and repeat for their work but I feel that their conclusion in that regard was possibly as a result of the weight of submissions made to them. It was an emotive thing at the time and still is to some extent.

There is nothing emotive about being paid.

There is a lot of illogicality behind the thinking on the question of giving money to jurors. To increase it to £5 per day is not going to meet the problem of the self-employed person who loses his day. To be realistic about this, I said when I was opening the debate, a self-employed person is in a position to minimise his loss. He is in a position to pull up for it afterwards.

I am sure there are Senators coming here from the country or, indeed, the city in business who so adjust their affairs that they will minimise any loss that will accrue to them. Likewise, if it should happen that there will be a loss, they will have to work that little bit harder afterwards. I do not think that is too much to ask these citizens who have the privilege of being self-employed.

I am not particularly convinced by that argument. I want to put that on record.

It is a new principle of not remunerating jurors. We had it and the British still have it.

We did not have it for criminal trials. We had in civil cases—five shillings per juror.

In 1927 it was probably as much as £2, if not £5.

I would not go along with that. It was paid by the parties in the case. It would add unduly to the cost of litigation to raise that, if it was meant to be a subsistence or travel item, to an equivalent figure nowadays that the cost of litigation is already very severe.

The Minister for Finance would not wear it—is that not the reality of the situation?

It is not the position at all.

Does the Minister not think——

I might point out that there was agreement to take the Committee Stage tomorrow and not to take it tonight. The Minister should be allowed to conclude without interruption.

Take the self-employed person about whom we are now concerned—most likely, he will be a person in business on his own account. His business will carry on whether he is missing for a day or even two days. I do not think there will be any loss of remuneration for him. He may lose the services of a worker for a couple of days if one of his staff is called on jury service. He would have to put up with the loss of that worker if perchance he became sick. This is something which happens in all walks of life. We have to adjust to the exigencies of a particular situation. I cannot see that there is any hardship on the self-employed person in adjusting his affairs so as to give him a day to discharge his civic duty.

It was suggested by Senator O'Higgins that women with families and households to look after should be excusable as of right. I would not agree with that suggestion because if it were to be accepted it would be putting the Bill back to more or less the same position as we are moving away from. Again, under section 9 (2) a person in that situation would be entitled to go to a county registrar and seek to be excused. I would hope that would not become a pattern. It would have to be left to the discretion of county registrars but I think the wording of the section is quite explicit. The county registrar would have to be satisfied that there is good reason and I think mere inconvenience would hardly qualify as good reason. If there would be neglect of children or a household, then the county registrar would have discretion to excuse.

It was suggested, too, by Senator O'Higgins that the section should permit requests to be made to the county registrar on behalf of jurors on the grounds that when the jury summons would come a juror might be absent down the country. He instanced the case of a commercial traveller who might be away for a couple of weeks. As I indicated in my opening speech, it is our intention to give from four to six weeks notice to jurors. If that intention is achieved—and there is no reason why it will not be—there will then be adequate time for any juror who wants to make representations personally to do so. If the juror is out of the country, then the question does not arise because service cannot be effective. There will be no service so there will be no question of having to be excused. The lengthy notice of four to six weeks will be relevant to the point I was making earlier with regard to the self-employed person who wants to order his affairs so as to make himself free to serve on the jury without any loss. He has four to six weeks in which to do so.

Senator O'Higgins also raised the same point as Senator Lenihan that he would like to see occupations on the jurors list and so far as we can we will arrange for this to be done.

Senator E. Ryan dealt with the question of section 9 (2) and wondered what standards would be applied by county registrars. He expressed the hope that they would exercise their powers under this section reasonably. I would have every confidence that they would do so. Another reason for drafting the section so that the request has to be made by the juror is to exclude—and this answers the point raised by Senator Walsh—a public representative coming in and making representations on behalf of a juror and adding to the pressures on the registrar. It is not anticipated that such representations would be entertained because they are not provided for under the Bill.

Senator E. Ryan asked for an explanation of the use of words in Part II of the Schedule dealing with the person excusable as of right where in one of the exemption paragraphs it spoke of "heads of Government Departments and Offices" and he wanted to know the difference between a Department and an Office. The Office of the Revenue Commissioners is an example. It is an autonomous unit within the civil service and is an example of an organisation that would not be a Department and it has a specific and legal head of its own. In that sense the distinction is made.

He asked why is there need to give to heads of Government Departments and, by analogy, to chief officers, local authorities and heads or principal teachers of educational establishments, the right to certify for excuse when there is already provision for the county registrar to excuse for good reason? This duplicates in a sense. Why not leave it with the county registrar as the court official charged with summoning the jury? One answer to that is that there could be reasons of confidentiality that would be known to the head of the Department or office concerned and with that knowledge he would be satisfied that it would be a proper case for giving a certificate of excusal. It might not be proper, indeed it might in certain cases be unlawful to reveal those reasons to a person other than the head of a Department or a person who is entitled to know them. A county registrar might not necessarily be so entitled and so for reasons of confidentiality he might not be a suitable person to hear the reasons why a particular civil servant sought excusal.

He might not be in a position to assess the urgency or the absolute necessity for excusal. It might not impress the registrar for the reason that it might not be possible to make it apparent to him or because of his lack of knowledge of the inner workings of the office in question. I think that the best person to certify would be the head of the Government Department or the office concerned.

Would the head of the Department have the right to prevent one of his employees from going forward on jury service if that employee wanted to go forward?

No, the Bill, as drafted, gives a certain person a right to be excused when that person produces a certificate from the head of his Department. It is envisaged that the person would receive the summons and would not want to serve because of the pressures on him in his job at that time. He would then go to the head of his Department and say: "I have the summons." The other situation postulated is that a person who receives a summons is doing most urgent work and wants to serve. I do not think he can be prevented from serving because he is exercising a legal and constitutional right. If the head of a Department were to give a certificate against the will of the officer concerned it would be invalid. It would be interfering with his rights. The right to serve is given. The person who is given that right is given the right to be excused in certain circumstances. He cannot be prevented from serving by some other person intervening. I cannot conceive of such a situation arising involving a responsible member of the civil service—we would, of course, only be talking of a person in a senior position in the civil service who would be doing work that was so urgent that it had to be done there and then and could only be done by that person. The number of people in that category in the civil service is very limited. I cannot conceive or foresee a situation where you would have the situation Senators have mentioned, where a member of the civil service in that category would opt to go on jury service knowing that by doing so he was going to seriously prejudice the workings of his Department and thereby the best interests of the country.

But can you not conceive of a situation where a lazy civil servant who did not want to do his work at home, would be delighted to go and serve for three weeks on a jury and leave it to somebody else to——

I have not met any such civil servant in my experience to date.

I concede the Minister's intentions but the Bill definitely allows a Secretary of a Department to refuse to permit a civil servant to take part in a jury.

I think it would be better if the Minister were allowed to finish without interruption.

I can go into this on the Schedule and exemptions. Senator Walsh raised the question of excluding members of local authorities and asked that they be excluded. I do not think that service on a local authority is of such urgency that it would have any special right to be excluded or that the person serving should be a person excusable as of right. I do not think the working of a local authority in any part of the country would come to halt because a councillor was absent on jury service. One could imagine a situation where there might be a delicately-balanced local authority and there might be a delicate vote on some particular matter but I think that would be a matter of base politics that could hardly be allowed to interfere with a citizen's right or obligation to serve on a jury.

It could seriously affect the right and the purpose of a public representative to represent.

He would be only one of a number of people looking after the rights of citizens and their rights would be adequately safeguarded by his other colleagues on the local body. The point is that the absence of one man would not cause the working of the local authority to come to a halt. I think it would have to be that serious before he could be excusable as of right.

Senator Martin asked that the exclusion for teachers be made absolute and queried what the position is, whether there is a three-tier arrangement intended for academic institutions. What is intended is that the head of the educational institution, whether it be the principal teacher or the president or whatever his title may be will himself be excused as of right and can claim excusal for any member of his staff in a situation analogous to that of the head of the Government Department exempting a civil servant. What we had in mind there is that the requirements to come on jury service might come at a time when an examination was taking place and could not take place without the presence of a particular person and if that person were absent it would mean harm or a most serious inconvenience to a large body of students.

A whole-time student can claim to be excused as of right. His call to jury service might come when he was doing his finals and if he had to forego his finals to serve on a jury, it would be inequitable. Consequently, he will be exempted. The head would be exempt; he would be excusable as of right in the same way as the head of a Department would be excusable as of right. He would then have power to exempt in the type of situation that I have illustrated.

I would hope that the granting of these certificates would be a rare occurrence and that they would be granted only in cases of absolute emergency and real seriousness and that a convention would not grow up that it would be a nice, informal arrangement that when a person got a jury summons he would know he could disregard it if he went to the head of his Department or school and got a certificate of excusal. I hope that this would not be the spirit in which it would be operated. We set out in the Schedule that the duty in the case of a civil servant must be essential and urgent and of such public importance that it cannot reasonably be performed by another or be postponed. The same sort of criteria should apply in the case of academic institutions.

Is the Minister satisfied that section 9 covers the position in relation to specific excuses from service? There is no mention of a person having to produce a certificate.

It does cover it. It does not cover the case where somebody else——

I do not think it does. Section 9 (1) (a) may need amendment in that it does not say anything about the person having to produce a certificate if required to do so.

The only qualification is the person himself telling the registrar that he does not want to serve. It does not cover the case of somebody else saying he cannot serve.

Under Part II of the First Schedule, if he informs the county registrar that he wishes to be excused, the county registrar shall excuse him.

If he wants to come in under 9 (1) (a) he can only do so if he has a certificate. This is a point I will deal with tomorrow.

I would like the Minister to answer that question about teachers, because the fact is he says that he hopes teachers would never bow out of jury service. I am a teacher and I know teachers at nearly every level. Every lazy instinct in their nature will tell them to go and do the jury service. They may have to do a series of lectures on Dickens but the chance to do jury service would be a Godsend in such a case.

From my point of view there would be no problem.

What about the students?

I would not be the one to adjudicate on the harm done to students. That would be a matter for the head of the institution who would be in a position to know and who would be in a position to decide whether the work involved was so serious and so urgent that it could not be postponed and could not be performed satisfactorily by anybody else. If those criteria were met, the head of the service would give an exemption certificate.

Would the Minister——

The Minister is supposedly concluding the Second Stage debate.

I am trying to be helpful.

Senators Harte and Deasy expressed some concern about the extension of the franchise. I do not think that their worries are well-founded. Senator Harte's worry was with regard to extending the franchise to persons between 65 and 70. Of course they are excusable as of right so that a person between 65 and 70 who does not want to serve does not have to serve. Senator Harte was concerned also that there would be a large section of that element who grew up at a time when social services and educational facilities were not as widespread as they are now and who might lack a certain amount of formal training and education. I would be very happy to see such persons—generally people of mature, sound, practical and common sense and who are ideal citizens—serving on juries.

Senator Deasy wondered about persons of low IQ being summoned. There is no test in that regard to get on the electoral register. It is inherent in our system that we have citizens of various capacities. It is the whole point of a jury system that it be a mixture of average citizens who make the decisions and I do not think that we should here prejudge the IQ of any particular citizen. In any event they are 12 citizens who have to come to their decision.

In regard to civil cases someone asked whether a unanimous verdict is required. A majority of nine to three is sufficient in such cases. The rule of unanimity, though, is required in criminal cases. Senator Robinson complimented me on the fact that the rule is maintained in the Bill. Let me say that I have not finally decided that it should be maintained for all time. The reason it is not in the Bill is because I am anxious to have as non-controversial a Bill as possible in order to get it through as quickly as possible. We may have another day to debate the merits of the rule of unanimity in criminal trials. I would be starting from a position of being in favour of maintaining the unanimity provision but quite frankly I have not examined it or analysed it or read the arguments for or against to be able to give an indication of a definitive view in that regard. Senators can get consolation from the fact that it is not a priority measure or a priority intention.

I take a lot of consolation from that.

Senator Robinson raised questions with regard to regulations or instructions that will be made under section 27. I will be taking advantage of the powers in that section to issue instructions to county registrars so as to achieve a uniformity of practice throughout the country. These will not be binding in the sense that they will not have a legal force; however in the sense of being a direction from the Minister for Justice to an officer of that Department, I would expect that they would be observed. They will not be secret but at the same time they will not be published. Any person who has a bona fide interest in seeing these instructions would certainly be afforded the facilities to see them. Indeed if any citizen wanted to see the instructions that citizen would be afforded facilities. These instructions will not take the form of a statutory instrument. I felt that if they took such form their operation and their detail would have to be very precise and could involve us in an immense amount of drafting because the instructions are quite detailed and quite big and in effect we would have to give them the same drafting care as would be brought to a statute when what is intended is to give instructions to men who are skilled already in that area so as to achieve uniformity of practice throughout the country. I thought it better to avoid bringing the consequences of a statutory instrument to such instructions.

With regard to the notice to jurors summoning them it is intended to send with each notice an indication to a juror of what he is being called for and what a juror's duties and obligations are. This cannot be a legal document nor would I want it to purport to be a legal document. The proper person to instruct the jury and the only person entitled to instruct the jury would be the judge involved in the trial. He would charge the jury as to their legal obligations in the context of the law relating to that case. It would be entering into dangerous legal grounds for the Minister for Justice administratively to attempt to set out for jurors in advance what their legal duties, rights and obligations and so on, would be. A broad indication in layman's language is what is wanted and that is what is intended to be given. It would be dangerous to go any farther than that.

With regard to another point raised by Senator Robinson—whether the disqualification under section 8—it could be intended to include a person who had been detained for even a day in St. Patrick's Institution. A day in St. Patrick's would only follow conviction of a criminal offence. I am not suggesting that anyone would ever be sentenced to a day. Such a sentence is not imposed by the courts but it could happen that there might be mitigation after a couple of days. This sometimes happens where circumstances, information or evidence not available to the court becomes available to me by way of petition and I would be able to avail of the probationary service to take advantage of such information. Therefore, it would be possible to have a situation where a young person might only serve a couple of days in St. Patrick's. That person would be disqualified because it is not the length of time spent in St. Patrick's but the crime which caused the person to be committed in the first instance which is taken into consideration.

Senator Deasy raised the question of courthouses. I am glad to be able to say that this is not my responsibility but I appeal to all Members here who are on local authorities to spare no effort in endeavouring to have money provided for this work so that there may be the very best of accommodation for jurors. I support Senator Deasy in that regard.

I think these are most of the points which have been raised in the course of the debate. The only point on which we are seriously in contention is the question of payment. I sympathise with the motivation of those who feel that some money should be given to jurors. Again, there were varying ideas as to what that should be— should it be pay for loss of earnings, should it be remuneration for loss of time, should it be subsistence or should it be for travelling expenses? I am not satisfied that in principle it rightly should be anything. Even if we could settle to our mutual satisfaction what it should be, I still would not be satisfied that it should be paid. I do think that this duty, especially having regard to the rare occasion in the future on which a citizen will be called upon to perform it, should be a paid duty. As I said, the only person who might be hit would be the self-employed person. Quite frankly I do not bleed for that person.

Or the unemployed.

The unemployed person will be able to draw his unemployment benefit.

He is entitled to expenses involved in being away from home.

I do not see that acting as a juror will involve him in any more expenses than living outside the court on the day concerned will involve him in. This is a matter about which we could argue for quite some time.

The other question was with regard to 18-year-olds. There has been a general welcome for the inclusion of 18-year-olds as jurors but there is a fair body of opinion that would be somewhat doubtful as to the propriety of introducing them. Many citizens would be apprehensive of having their cases tried by a jury on which there would be a sizeable representation of 18-year-olds. I think I would be such a citizen. In deference to that point of view this is one of the reasons why the challenges without cause shown have been increased to seven, so that the parties would be able to avail of those extra challenges to exclude 18-year-olds if they wanted to.

The proper way to exclude 18-year-olds is to leave it to the parties, the people who will be directly affected by 18-year-olds, if they be affected at all, rather than for the State to take power to exclude them. That is the fairer way to do it and that is why we are dealing with 18-year-olds. I would hope that they would not be totally excluded because it is good civics for 18-year-olds to participate in the judicial process. They should be allowed to participate. The opinion of an under 21-year-old—that does not sound as radical as an 18-year-old—on a jury could be a good thing. In civil cases, as I said, a majority verdict is adequate.

Before I conclude I should like again to thank Senators for their reception of the Bill. I am glad I had the opportunity and privilege of introducing this reforming measure and that we were able to have it under the one legislative roof rather than amending the earlier Acts and amending the amendments to earlier Acts which, as Senator Ryan rightly pointed out, makes most difficult the job of anyone who has occasion to try to search out what the law is on a particular subject. It is a pity that 11 years have passed since the committee reported, but possibly there were more urgent legislative matters to be dealt with in the meantime. However, in fairness, I must say that this Bill was introduced in the Seanad before the Summer recess of last year and that at that stage work had been in progress on it for some considerable time. So to take 1976 as the starting point for my responsibility would be wrong; I would be doing myself less than justice if I did not claim credit for having been on the job in regard to amending this law a little earlier than it now appears. However, I am glad that we have got to the stage where the Bill has now started its legislative journey and I thank Senators for their reception of it and for the co-operation in agreeing to take Committee Stage tomorrow.

Question put and agreed to.
Committee Stage ordered for Thursday, 5th February, 1976.
The Seanad adjourned at 9.45 p.m. until 11 a.m. on Thursday, 5th February, 1976.
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