Local Government (Water Pollution) Bill, 1976: Report and Final Stages.
Government amendment No. 1:
In page 2, line 32, after "any" to insert "poisonous or noxious matter, and any".
In accepting a slightly modified version of Senator Robinson's Committee Stage amendment on the definition of polluting matter I mentioned my intention to make a further minor drafting amendment in the definition on Report Stage.
Amendment No. 1 broadens the definition further by including "poisonous or noxious matter" after "any" where it first occurs, page 2, line 32, and thus dispenses with the need for specific reference to such matter in sections 3, 12, 13, 14 and 16. Amendments Nos. 5, 6, 7, 8, 9 and 10, which delete the reference to poisonous and noxious matter, are consequential on amendment No. 1. I can assure the House that this is purely a drafting amendment.
I should like to thank the Parliamentary Secretary for introducing this amendment which had been referred to on Committee Stage. It is a drafting amendment, as the Parliamentary Secretary has said. It is also an improvement. It clarifies what is meant by polluting matter so I think it does improve the Bill.
Amendment agreed to.
Amendments Nos. 2, 11, 12 and 13 are related. It is suggested that they might be debated together.
Government amendment No. 2:
In page 3, lines 46 to 49, to delete subsection (2) and insert the following new subsection:—
"(2) The Council may, either of its own volition or at the request of the Minister, make recommendations to the Minister in relation to any matter relevant to his functions or responsibilities concerning control of water pollution and shall advise him on any matter referred to it by the Minister in discharge of his functions and responsibilities under this Act."
These amendments are substantially the same as the amendment moved and withdrawn by Senator Robinson on Committee Stage. I indicated at that stage that any provision requiring consultation with the Water Pollution Advisory Council in regard to the exercise by the Minister of the powers conferred on him by sections 25, 26 and 27 would be best included in these sections. Amendments Nos. 11, 12 and 13 provide for such consultation.
These amendments, taken together, do meet the objects of the original amendments, which were to provide for consultation of the Water Pollution Advisory Council. This is an improvement on the original wording. As the Parliamentary Secretary has said, the body will be consulted.
Amendment agreed to.
I move amendment No. 3:
In page 3 to delete lines 55 and 56 and in page 4 to delete lines 1 to 7 and substitute the following:—
"(4) The Minister may by order, made with the consent of the Minister for the Public Service in so far as it relates to expenses for members of the Council, provide for such one or more of the following as he considers appropriate:
(a) the constitution of the Council,
(b) the period for which and the terms and conditions upon and subject to which the members of the Council are to hold office,
(c) the manner in which a member of the Council may resign from office and the manner and circumstances in which such a member may be removed from office,
(d) the payment of expenses to members of the Council,
(e) any matter which is ancillary or incidental to any of the foregoing."
This amendment has been tabled to avoid the particular problem which the Parliamentary Secretary found with the original amendment. It proposes to require that the Minister shall by order, made with the consent of the Minister for the Public Service in so far as it relates to expenses for members of the Council, provide for such one or more of the following as he considers appropriate: the constitution of the Council, the period for which and the terms and conditions upon and subject to which the members of the Council are to hold office, the manner in which a member of the Council may resign from office and the manner and circumstances in which such a member may be removed from office, the payment of expenses to members of the Council, any matter which is ancillary or incidental to any of the foregoing. The attempt is to ensure the independence and constitution of the Advisory Council. As the section stands the composition of this Council, its terms of reference and its tenure are all much too much in the discretion of any particular Minister at any time. He may appoint any number he likes for any terms he likes. He may appoint a Chairman. He may remove anybody from it. A body so composed is not likely to give independent advice or to feel that it can give independent advice to the Minister.
I removed the reference to the business of the Council because I think the Parliamentary Secretary made a valid point when he said that the Council should regulate its own business and its own procedure. This amendment is in line with the Government proposal for the structure of the Wildlife Advisory Council. It does convey a sense that the Advisory Council has a statutory basis that the regulations governing it in a procedural sense are brought in by an order and are visible, that the people who are on the Advisory Council have that security of tenure, know that they have been appointed in accordance with the order, know that the duration of their appointment is two or three years, or whatever it may be, and feel therefore that they can give independent and impartial advice based on their particular expertise. The amendment has been retabled without the part of the amendment which the Parliamentary Secretary rightly argued could be an interference with the independence of the Council.
I cannot agree to this amendment. I have already accepted on Committee Stage Senator Robinson's amendment providing for appointment of the Council by order. I see no reason to provide for a further order to deal with the matters already covered by substantial provisions in the section, such as the number of persons to be appointed, the period of appointment, and the payment of expenses. Neither do I see any need to set out the manner in which a member may resign from office. I appreciate that the amendment may be based on a formula used in another enactment. We have in the Bill what we need for the Water Pollution Advisory Council and there is no great point of principle at stake which would warrant changing it. It must be remembered that we are only providing for an advisory body and that each member will be acting in a voluntary capacity. By appointing a non-statutory body we have already shown our anxiety to make use of such a body and have it as representative as possible. I do not consider that there is any need for the amendment or that it would have any different effect from what is proposed. Senator Robinson's amendment is saying in another way what is said in the Bill and I do not see any great difference in it. For that reason I would ask Senator Robinson to seriously consider withdrawing the amendment.
I should like to intervene to point out to Members that we are on the Fourth Stage. Does any Senator wish to contribute?
The Parliamentary Secretary has been very willing to accept amendments and to introduce amendments on Report Stage in the light of suggestions made on Committee Stage. Despite that, I do not feel that this is a drafting amendment, or not an amendment on principle, and one which I could withdraw in the light of what the Parliamentary Secretary has said. This is an amendment in principle which would try to create a more independent structure for the Water Pollution Advisory Council.
As section 2 stands at present, the Water Pollution Advisory Council, when established, will have the size which the Minister decides, so it could be anything from three people to 40 people. Each member will have the appointment for the length of time the Minister deems fit, for some people maybe ten years, for some people maybe six months and for others maybe only for two months. There is no qualification on that discretion. The Minister may remove a member without giving a reason. He may appoint a chairman of the council at any time and if that person is too independent-minded a chairman he may remove him and appoint somebody else as chairman. That is not the type of body the Seanad should approve of as the best type of structure for an independent advisory body. The precedent of the Wildlife Advisory Council is relevant. There was good reason for the type of composition of the body which we choose when establishing the Wildlife Advisory Council. I appreciate that the members of this advisory council would be voluntary and that there is provision for a formula for them to resign. It is obviously not an elaborate resignation. It would presumably be simply a letter of resignation to the Minister terminating the appointment, but it does mean that you have a body with a fixed number of people for a definite length of time. That in itself could vary but it would be set out in the order. The chairman would be appointed in a particular way, either by the Minister or by the members of the advisory council, or whatever the formula might be in the order. People could look at the written order and see the composition of the advisory council. It is a matter of principle because we are creating a consultative function for the advisory council and this has been written in. That is very welcome, but we are not really creating an independent existence and an independent tenure for the Wildlife Advisory Council. I regret this very much because I know that the intention of the Parliamentary Secretary is to have a good and useful advisory council and to have it used by the Minister. In a parliamentary sense we are not availing to the full of the meaning of giving a body a statutory function and basis.
Amendment put and declared lost.
Government amendment No. 4:
In page 4, between lines 7 and 8, to insert the following:—
"(8) The Minister may by order amend or revoke an order under this section."
In accepting Senator Robinson's Committee Stage amendment providing for the substitution of "shall by order" for "may" in subsection (1), I indicated that I would be putting down a consequential Report Stage amendment. The power to make orders is usually accompanied by a power to amend and revoke them.
Amendment agreed to.
Government amendment No. 5:
In page 4, line 9, to delete "poisonous, noxious or".
Amendment agreed to.
Government amendment No. 6:
In page 10, line 32, to delete "poisonous, noxious or".
Amendment agreed to.
Government amendment No. 7:
In page 11, line 4, to delete "poisonous, noxious or".
Amendment agreed to.
Government amendment No. 8:
In page 11, line 12, to delete "poisonous, noxious or".
Amendment agreed to.
Government amendment No. 9:
In page 11, line 27, to delete "poisonous, noxious or".
Amendment agreed to.
Government amendment No. 10:
In page 13, lines 29 and 30, to delete "poisonous, noxious or".
Amendment agreed to.
Government amendment No. 11:
In page 17, line 34, after "the Public Service" to insert "and the Water Pollution Advisory Council".
Amendment agreed to.
Government amendment No. 12:
In page 18, line 33, to delete "and any other Minister who appears to him to be interested," and insert ", any other Minister who appears to him to be interested and the Water Pollution Advisory Council,".
Amendment agreed to.
Government amendment No. 13:
In page 18 lines 51 and 52, to delete "and the Commissioners of Public Works in Ireland," and insert ", the Commissioners of Public Works in Ireland and the Water Pollution Advisory Council,".
Amendment agreed to.
Bill, as amended, received for final consideration and passed.
