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Seanad Éireann debate -
Tuesday, 6 Jul 1976

Vol. 84 No. 10

Family Home Protection Bill, 1976: Second Stage (Resumed).

Question again proposed: "That the Bill be now read a Second Time."

I had just commenced to reply to the debate when we adjourned last evening. I was thanking Senators for the welcome which they extended to this important piece of family law. Senator Eoin Ryan, for the Opposition, welcomed it and made the point, which seems a valid point that by and large the matters that might concern Senators can properly be raised during the Committee Stage and said that the principle enshrined in the Bill is one that is acceptable to his side of the House. He expressed a worry that there might be room for evasion of the Bill by husbands trying to avoid their responsibilities, but I think the Bill as drafted will render that impossible in practical terms, because the Bill provides a very simple remedy for the particular thing that we want to cure. It says simply that a husband cannot sell the family home without his wife's consent endorsed on the deed of conveyance. It is a simple procedure and at this stage I cannot see how there would be any room for evasion. If there is room for evasion there would have to be collusion and if there is no collusion there cannot be evasion. Certain sanctions will attach themselves to a husband and to anybody in collusion with him. However, should any loopholes manifest themselves when the Bill is in operation, they will be closed promptly by any amending legislation that may be necessary.

Senator Robinson welcomed the Bill and described it as a very important piece of legislation in the field of the family. I agree with her. She thought that it would lift the status of the wife within the family and that at the moment the legal position of a wife is not as full as it should be in our society. The legal position in terms of the legal trappings attaching to the wifely state may be as she described but I would submit to the House that the status of a marriage and the status of the partners vis-á-vis each other do not depend on an Act of Parliament. It cannot depend on legal trappings. They arise naturally from the very nature of matrimony itself.

Would the Minister agree that there is lack of legal protection?

I do not think so. If a marriage is a true marriage in the full meaning of that word, it does not matter to a wife whether this Bill is passed or not, because the husband if it is a proper marriage, will not sell the house without his wife's consent, and if she refuses to give her consent after they have had a full debate between them, the sale will not go through, provided it is a normal marriage, as the vast bulk of marriages are. If the marriage is unsatisfactory, the need for this Bill arises, and that is why we are bringing in this Bill, because we recognise that there are some marriages, but a minority of marriages where the relationship is not the full matrimonial relationship between the parties. Senator Robinson said that there is an over-large cultural and economic dependence on the part of wives in Ireland. Again I would take issue with her in that context.

Would the Minister believe the Commission on the Status of Women?

There is no question of cultural or economic dependence where there is a proper marriage. It does not arise because it is of the very nature of matrimony that there is a dependence on each other. There is no question of one person being subservient, or of having a lesser status vis-a-vis the other partner if it is a proper marriage. What we are legislating for here are marriages that are less than full marriages, where there is less than the full matrimonial relationship between the parties, where a spouse is not appreciative of his responsibilities and duties. In such a situation the law has to intervene. It is for that type of marriage that this Bill is being introduced. The Bill or any piece of law will not and cannot make what is an improper marriage or a less than full marriage, a full marriage. If the proper matrimonial relationship and bond are not present, no Act of Parliament can provide it. No Act of Parliament can provide a cultural independence or economic independence which is not already there, arising naturally out of the marriage.

Marriage is not an isolation from society. The Minister is creating an impression of just two people having an idealistic time together. They are completely conditioned by their society.

The Minister is talking about a healthy marriage. This legislation is really not relevant there.

The position of the partners vis-a-vis each other, their dignity in themselves, and their relationship towards each other and their status as between themselves and their family will not in a normal marriage rely on an Act of Parliament. If it is not there by virtue of the matrimonial bond, no Act of Parliament will provide it. In essence what we are talking about when we are talking about law in this area is law to deal with the minority of marriages that are less than full marriages and I concede that this legislation is, unfortunately, needed to deal with that type of marriage.

In regard to the exception to the general rule, where there is not the full matrimonial relationship, where a husband does not consult his wife about the affairs, legal, financial and cultural and so on, that concern them and their family, and where the status between them is not full and free, there is need to protect wives. Again we are talking about wives being in the weaker position. When we consider injustice in the marriage, it is the wife who suffers more often than the husband. This Bill is to cure what has been a scandal—the occasional sale by a husband of the family home over the heads of his wife and children. It serves a social need but will not make any difference to the vast majority of marriages, nor will it raise the status of a wife, as she already has that status by virtue of the marriage bond.

At the moment I am not convinced that compulsory joint ownership is the answer. I would like to hear further views in other places at other times on that question. Perhaps the Law Reform Commission may consider this in due course if they are charged to do so by the Attorney General who sets up the programme in consultation with the Government. It is not correct, to say that that body have not commenced operations as was, perhaps, suggested by Senator Robinson because they are seized with the problem of domicile. They have advertised for submissions from the public on that question. They are also considering the reduction of the age of majority and on that too have asked for submissions from interested members of the public, which will include Members of this House, whose views on these subjects will certainly be welcomed by the Law Reform Commission in coming to their conclusions on those subjects. There is no doubt that the question of compulsory joint ownership would appear to be a possible subject for them to deal with and it may be possible to have it included in their programme. Again it will be a question of priority as to what is the more urgent business. I think this Bill will probably reduce the question of compulsory co-ownership to a lower place in the queue of priorities, because the evil that the Bill sets out to remedy, and the evil which co-ownership would also be directed against, that is, the evil of the vindictive sale, is covered in this Bill.

Again, compulsory co-ownership is something that might not suit all wives. One could envisage a situation where the house might be bought, for example, by the wife. She might not be a bit keen on having a situation where there was compulsory co-ownership. One could envisage a situation where perhaps due to the wife having separate means, perhaps her "fortune", if I may use such an old-fashioned term in the context of this Bill, she applies it towards buying a family home. If, after a number of years of marriage, it turned out that the husband was improvident or was showing improvident tendencies, she might wish the family home to be in her sole name. If we were to have compulsory co-ownership she would not have any choice in such a situation. I mention that as an indication of some of the difficulties that could follow from compulsory co-ownership.

Senator Robinson took the point why is there no constitutional impediment in the Succession Act where we say there might be a constitutional impediment to compulsory co-ownership. There is a distinction there: compulsory co-ownership would, in effect, be taking the property from one spouse and putting it in the joint names of the spouses. It would be reducing the property in the hands of one spouse by giving it into the hands of both spouses. It would be reducing the quantum of ownership. The Succession Act does not take property from a party; it merely restricts the right to dispose of property. That is the distinction to be made between the two situations.

Senator Robinson said that the impact of this Bill would be diminished because legal aid is not available. That may be but I do not think that will be so in practice. I cannot see any situation arising under this Bill or under any of the family law reform measures which we have passed where a wife would be deprived of her rights by the absence of legal aid. The onus on taking proceedings under this Bill by and large rests on the husband. If he wants to sell the house he has to apply to the court for consent if consent is withheld. In the case where a wife wants to intervene in relation to a disposition of chattels or where there is some interference by the husband with the home, she will have to get a solicitor. It would be easier for her to get a solicitor obviously if there was free legal aid but it would be unreal to suggest, in the context of our society, that a wife would not be able to get a solicitor in the case of an emergency such as that. I do not think there would be any difficulty in her obtaining the services of a solicitor. If we get down to the——

Your loyalty is reassuring, Minister.

I am speaking as one who was in practice and in practice in the District Courts. Senator Robinson and so many people who make this argument are speaking from the narrow context of metropolitan Dublin.

I am in practice, too——

Ireland extends beyond the boundaries of Dublin. I can say quite firmly that in any country town any solicitor in practice there would take any such case without asking the woman coming into his office to show him the colour of her money. I say that quite firmly and unequivocally. I am sure it is the same in Dublin. I have no doubt about it. Again, lest anyone might feel that he had to depend on lawyers' charity, it would be desirable if we had legal aid. The fact that the distinguished Chairman of that Committee has other duties should not be taken as the reason why the Committee have not yet reported. This is a complex subject and one that has led to great difficulties of administration and of expense in the jurisdictions where it has been introduced. Even if that Committee were to report in the morning I cannot guarantee that their report would be implemented. It would depend on the constraints on the Exchequer at the particular time.

Senator Robinson raised other points on various sections which I will leave until we deal with the sections in question. She asked whether it would be possible to have compulsory notice of marriage in the registry. I do not know that this would be feasible in practical terms. How would you enforce the obligation to notify the Land Registry or the Registry of Deeds that a marriage had taken place? What sanction would you apply for failure to give notice? Again, what point would there be in giving notice if at the time of the marriage the parties did not have any property and did not acquire the family home until afterwards?

Senator Horgan's problem of a husband keeping his family from occupation—was that the example the Senator gave?

Local authority.

——of barring his family from occupation. That could be solved by the provisions in the Maintenance Act where the District Court has power to keep the husband out from the family home. If the husband is so misbehaving himself as to threaten the safety or welfare of his wife and family, they are entitled to go to the District Court and have an order keeping him out of the family home. Rather than a husband barring a wife, she has power now to bar an unworthy husband from interfering with the amenities of the family home.

I think I have covered most of the points raised on the Second Stage debate. I will conclude by thanking Senators for their welcome for this Bill which I consider to be an important foothold on the road towards family law reform. It will end simply and conclusively the scandal of vindictive sales. These scandals arise only in the minority of marriages. The vast majority of marriages depend for their security not on any Act of Parliament but on the nature of matrimony itself.

Would the Minister accept one brief quotation from the Commission on the Status of Women on that precise point? It is not true to say that the marriage just depends on the marriage going well between the two individuals. A marriage is conditioned by the cultural ethos of the society, by the conditioning factors in that society. That is why I believe this Bill is much broader than just meeting a particular, rather narrow case of vindictive sale. The quotation which I suggest meets the point is on page 12, chapter 2 of the Commission on the Status of Women on underlying factors which limit women's participation even in the absence of formal discrimination. The quotation goes on:

However, the removal of these actual discriminations leaves untouched a larger and more subtle area of discrimination consisting of those factors which limit women's participation even in the absence of formal discrimination, that is the stereo typed role that is assigned to women, the inculcation of attitudes in both boys and girls in their formative years that there are definite and separate roles for the sexes and that a woman's life pattern would be predominantly home-centered while the man's life pattern will be predominantly centred on employment. It is from this type of cultural mould that formal discrimination arises and it is only by the removal of such traditional attitudes that women can hope to achieve complete self-fulfilment and equal participation in all the aspects of the life of a community.

An Leas-Chathaoirleach

I really must interrupt you now. We have had a Second Stage debate. The Senator said it would be a short quotation and is I think abusing procedure at this stage.

There is just one more sentence. It is that background conditioning that makes this Bill relevant for all marriages in this country.

I think the effect of what Senator Robinson is saying is that the Commission on the Status of Women are urging that henceforth women should wear the trousers.

Question put and agreed to.
Agreed to take the remaining Stages today.
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