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Seanad Éireann debate -
Wednesday, 9 Feb 1977

Vol. 86 No. 2

Friendly Societies (Amendment) Bill, 1976: Second Stage.

Question proposed: "That the Bill be now read a Second Time."

The purposes of the Bill now before the House are firstly, having regard to the change in the value of money, to update certain financial limitations imposed by the Acts; secondly, to improve the controls on the operation of societies; and thirdly, to replace the existing requirement that the registrar should be a barrister with a provision enabling the Minister for Industry and Commerce to prescribe the qualifications required for the appointment.

I propose to deal with these matters separately, but before doing so, I should like to clarify a point which might lead to confusion later on in our discusion of the Bill.

Friendly societies are governed in their operations by the Friendly Societies Acts, 1896 to 1953. They should not be confused with industrial and provident societies, which have their own entirely separate code of law. Examples of industrial and provident societies are agricultural co-operatives and credit unions, and they are generally, though not always, co-operative enterprises.

Societies registered under the Friendly Societies Acts can be divided into three main groups which are (i) friendly societies themselves (ii) benevolent societies and (iii) specially authorised societies, and I propose now to give some brief background information on these three main groups.

Friendly societies themselves are generally formed for the relief of members in sickness or in old age and for the payment of sums to meet the funeral expenses of members and their wives and children. Benevolent societies, too, provide benefits but they do so in respect of persons other than members. Specially authorised societies are a different type of operation but they too have a pronounced social awareness in their objects. The biggest class within this group are specially authorised loan societies, or SALS for short. These were formed for the purpose of creating funds by monthly or other subscription to be lent out to or invested for the members or for their benefit.

The following details regarding friendly societies generally may be of interest. As at 31st December, 1975, which is the last year for which completed annual returns are available, there was a total of 173 of these societies on the register maintained by the Registrar of Friendly Societies. Total membership for the same period exceeded 150,000 persons and the total benefits paid out in respect of the year 1975, whether as sickness, mortality or other benefits, came to over £600,000. These figures will, I hope, act as indicators of the scale and usefulness of the societies we are dealing with under this Bill.

I will now proceed to enunciate the principles behind the main sections of the Bill. All societies registered under the Friendly Societies Acts are permitted by section 46 of the Principal Act of 1896 to accept deposits from and to make loans to members, subject to certain restrictions. Section 2 of the Bill now before the House is intended to allow the Minister to alter these restrictions by regulation.

The restrictions on the operation of a loan fund by a registered society are not very many or severe and take the form mainly of financial limits. All of them however were fixed on the making of the Principal Act in 1896 and they have not been changed since, mainly because until recently there was no evidence that changes were necessary. In recent times however it has been represented to the Minister that those restrictions which consist of financial limits represent an unrealistic constraint on the operations of certain societies.

The money limits concerned are a maximum investment of £200 which a member may hold in a loan fund of a society, while as regards its lending operations a society may not make any loan which together with any money owing by a member to the society exceeds £50. Having regard to the decline in money values since 1896, when these limits were fixed, they now bear no relationship to their original value and there is a justifiable case for their revision upwards.

It is proposed therefore to increase the limits to more realistic levels, and section 2 of the Bill now before the House will enable this to be done by Regulation. Rather than prescribe any specific new limits in the Bill, the value of which could again be undermined long before another legislative change is effected, the medium of regulation has been chosen to achieve this end, with a view to ensuring that any new limits now fixed can be reviewed at more regular intervals and, if appropriate adjusted more frequently in the future.

There are two other restrictions which apply to the operation of a loan fund by societies. These are, first, that a loan shall not at any time be made out of money contributed for an other purpose of the society and, second, that a society shall not hold at any one time on deposit from its members any money beyond the amount fixed by the rules, and that the amounts so fixed shall not exceed two-thirds of the total sums owing to the society by the members who have borrowed from the loan fund.

These restrictions may need to be tightened to provide better safeguards for depositors, and section 2 of the Bill will empower the Minister to alter these restrictions, also by regulation.

I might add that initially the intention is to introduce regulations under section 2 of the Bill in respect of specially authorised loan societies only because, unlike other classes of friendly societies which operate a loan fund as is borrowing and lending money, it is authorised Loan Societies were established expressly for the purpose of creating funds by monthly or other subscriptions to be lent to or invested for the members. I think the House will agree that since unlike other Friendly Societies their main business is borrowing and lending money, it is desirable that their operations should be regulated, although there are now only 15 of them on the register.

Section 3 of the Bill is intended to tighten up the accounts and auditing requirements of friendly societies generally. As matters stand, accounts of friendly societies can be audited by any two persons appointed by the societies, who need have no accountancy qualifications or background, and there are no legal requirements regarding the form of accounts for friendly societies and their branches. Under section 3 of the Bill therefore it is proposed to take power to provide by regulation for the form of accounts and records to be kept by friendly societies for matters relating to the audit of their accounts, including the qualifications necessary for persons carrying out such auditing, and for the laying of accounts before the annual general meetings of societies by their committees of management.

I feel that it is only right that members of a specially authorised loan society should have a positive say in the running of the society and section 4 of the Bill has been drafted to meet this objective.

Section 5 of the Bill deals with the appointment of the Registrar of Friendly Societies. This section is relevant not only to friendly societies but to all other forms of societies such as industrial and provident societies, including credit unions, and building societies. At present, the power to appoint the Registrar of Friendly Societies is vested in the Minister by section 1 (3) of the 1896 Act as amended by section 2 (2) (b) of the 1936 Act, while section 4 (2) of the 1936 Act contains the present stipulation that the registrar must be a barrister of not less than ten years' standing. I should emphasise of course that, notwithstanding the Minister's power to appoint the registrar, the powers and functions of the registrar himself are statutorily conferred on him and are not at all subject to the Minister's influence. Generally however these powers and functions are largely of a mechanical and recording nature.

For example, the responsibility of the registrar have mainly consisted of matters such as registration of rules, amendments to rules, resolutions for amalgamations and transfers of engagements and resolutions for conversion of societies into companies and vice versa. The registrar has also been involved in the settlement of a limited category of disputes involving societies and members and has in certain restricted circumstances power to call special meetings of societies or to appoint inspectors to investigate their affairs.

The registrar is also responsible for ensuring that the required annual returns of societies and other documents are filed and are available to the public who may wish to inspect them.

It has been found adequate in the past to fill the position on a part-time basis only, but recent developments which are altering the fundamental nature of the registrar's role will considerably strain the continuation of this working arrangement, if indeed they do not make it impossible to operate in the future.

The best example I can give of the changing nature of the registrar's role and his increased responsibilities is the Building Societies Act. Senators will be aware that this Act endows the registrar with extensive powers to supervise the building society sector. Indeed, in keeping with this general drift towards arming the registrar with active supervisory and investigatory muscle to ensure that both the rights of members and the public interest are continuously respected by various societies, I am considering the introduction of measures to empower the registrar to supervise actively as well the affairs of societies other than building societies.

I think the House will agree that there is an indisputable need for an active but independent office of registrar, firstly to ensure that all societies conduct their business in a proper fashion, secondly to better protect the rights of members who may well be interested in the affairs of their society but who find their interest frustrated, and thirdly to exercise greatly strengthened powers, with improved rights to oversee the affairs of societies.

The changing nature of the registrar's work, as manifested at present in the Building Societies Act, may well lead to the need for qualifications additional to legal expertise for the post. For example, the supervisory function envisaged for the registrar under the Building Societies Act could conceivably call for a knowledge of accountancy and financial matters which could not normally be expected of a barrister. In other words, flexibility as regards the qualifications of the registrar is imperative in circumstances where the nature and demands of the position are undergoing substantial change.

Section 5 of the Bill is therefore drafted with a view to providing the Minister with the desired flexibility in determining the qualifications for the position of registrar to meet the evolving responsibilities of the position. It will also enable him, with the consent of the Minister for the Public Service, to pitch the remuneration for the position at a level which if a full time official is eventually required, would attract a person of the requisite standing and experience.

As I mentioned earlier, sections 2 and 3 of the Bill would give the Minister power to alter certain very important requirements by regulations, but the principle of Oireachtas control is preserved by providing, in section 8, that no regulation shall be made until a resolution approving of it shall have been passed by each House. I think these arrangements avoid on the one hand the excessive rigidity which would result from embodying provisions in legislation, and on the other hand the danger that they might be given the force of law without full and democratic examination.

I have said that the intention behind section 2 of the Bill is to enable the Minister to alter by regulation certain restrictions and financial limits on the operations of friendly societies which operate a loan fund. I would hope to introduce an amendment on Committee Stage which will widen the scope of the Bill by enabling the Minister to alter by regulation the other main financial limits imposed by law on friendly societies. I also hope to table an amendment on Committee Stage to bring the penalties for offences under the Friendly Societies Acts more into line with present-day money values.

In summary however the purposes of the Bill as it now stands are, firstly, having regard to the change in the value of money, to update the financial limitations imposed by the Friendly Societies Acts on the operation of a loan fund by societies; secondly, to improve the controls on the operation of societies, and thirdly, to enable the Minister to determine the qualifications necessary for the position of Registrar of Friendly Societies so that, having regard to the evolving nature of the position, he will have the desired flexibility to appoint a person with the kind of qualifications that events will show are most suited to the position.

I commend this Bill to the House.

Obviously this is a Bill to which there could be no objection. It is a Bill which we welcome. It suggests various amendments to the Building Societies Act. The original Act goes back approximately 80 years and it is not surprising that there should be certain amendments necessary at this time. We certainly welcome the opportunity to discuss these amendments. It is obviously a Committee Stage Bill. There is no objection in principle and there is not very much to be said in regard to the principles in the Bill.

There are, however, a few things which I would like to refer to very briefly. First, I recommend to the Parliamentary Secretary the need to provide that regulations made under the Bill will have to be tabled and accepted by the House rather than merely being put on the Table of the House. This is always a desirable provision and particularly so in a Bill of this kind. Secondly, I am glad that it is proposed to give the registrar extra powers and extra status and to reconsider the qualifications he will need to do this job. This is very proper and it will certainly have our support.

The one aspect of the registrarship which apparently the Parliamentary Secretary does not propose to deal with is independence. We had a discussion on another Bill here in regard to the independence of the registrar and I think the same views that were expressed at that time apply in regard to the registrar who, of course, is the same person under this Bill. However, that is a matter which is more for the Committee Stage. In general, the Bill should be welcomed and I have no hesitation in welcoming it.

In common with Senator Ryan and I am sure everybody else here, I welcome this Bill. I realise the important part that friendly societies play. They are a very useful and acceptable method of saving for the small saver. But I would like to ask the Parliamentary Secretary one question, if he is listening. How much of the legislation that we have here applies to credit unions? I know that certain sections apply to credit unions, but does the whole Bill apply to credit unions or only certain sections of it? I would like to see that spelled out because credit unions really have to a great extent fulfilled a need in this country which the banks have not fulfilled and that is to look after the small saver, to help people who perhaps are not used to saving to save regularly. They have by their method of operation prevented very many people who might have had financial problems from developing these problems because they favoured regular saving by people who are paid weekly wages. I think that we should do everything we can to encourage the credit unions and I would like to find out from the Parliamentary Secretary how much of this legislation applies to credit unions. I know that the Parliamentary Secretary has referred to them in his text but I would like to know exactly what applies to credit unions in this Bill and what does not.

Supplementary to the very important point that Senator West has made, I would like to press even further for clarification on that point because it has struck a lot of people looking at the present situation in Ireland and with regard to the morale of ordinary people, with regard to their money, their investments and their attitude towards money and loans that there has grown up in our society a sense of despair with regard to savings, as such. It is said every day of the week that there is no use in saving money any more because inflation is defeating this.

I was just nodding to my Protestant friend, Senator Trevor West, who knows all about the work ethic and the sanctity of property and of course that ancient Puritan value of thrift. That is disappearing rapidly from our society. I just wonder if this admirable Bill—there is no aspect of the Bill which, in company with Senator Eoin Ryan and Senator Trevor West, I would not welcome—is the kind of Bill that will do something to restore the situation, which is being eroded very rapidly by the almost limitless desire for borrowing and the almost limitless increase in inflation.

I should like to thank the Seanad for their speedy consideration of the Bill. Senator West asked about the applicability of the provisions of the Bill to credit unions and I should like to state that in general they do not apply to them. There are some particular provisions relating to what are described as specially authorised loans societies. These societies in their objectives and operations are closely analogous to credit unions but they are confined largely to the central area of Dublin city where this movement sprung up in the early part of this century. No specially authorised loan societies have, in fact, been created other than for agricultural and horticultural purposes and could not be so created under the law, subsequent to 1917. However, a number of specially authorised societies formed prior to 1917 dealing in the area of loans are operative and performing effectively the same functions as credit unions in the central area of Dublin city. They have a traditional attachment among members, which is obviously something desirable to maintain.

This Bill is extending the type of control on their operation which was effected in respect of credit unions in the Credit Union Act of 1966. We are extending this now to these analogous societies, which are not credit unions legally; they are friendly societies rather than industrial and provident societies which credit unions are. The only power in the Bill which affects credit unions in any direct sense is the power in relation to the changing of the qualification of the registrar. The registrar will have a function in relation to credit unions as he will have a function both in relation to friendly societies and all industrial and provident societies. That is the only provision that affects credit unions.

Senator Ryan referred to the independence of the position of the registrar. It is fair to say, that as I did in my opening statement, that the registrar has full independence in the exercise of his statutory functions and there is no question of his being interfered with in those functions. There was an original provision in the Bill as introduced in the Dáil whereby the registrar could be removed by the Minister. This is a standard provision in relation to any such position held by a public servant. Obviously, if a man was not, through illness or through some incapacity, able to perform his duties and given that those duties involved the care of large amounts of money belonging to other people, it is necessary that there should be a provision to have him removed from office quickly. The fact that the Minister was taking the power to remove the registrar was construed by some people as indicating some diminution of his independence. In reality the intent of that provision was merely to enable him to be removed quickly so that somebody could be put in his place who would perform the functions adequately. There was no intention and there is no intention by the exercise of that power of removal to interfere with the independence of the registrar In order that that might be made manifest I decided to introduce an amendment in the Dáil to the effect that the Minister, if he decides to exercise his power to remove the registrar, must place a statement before both Houses of the Oireachtas giving the reasons for his decision to remove the registrar. That amendment combines the necessary speed of operation which is implicit in the Minister being able to remove him of his own accord with the necessary democratic check on the exercise of that power on a subsequent basis by the House having a knowledge of the reasons which would be lodged before it.

Those are the main points raised by Senators in relation to the Bill. I would be happy if I could get the Committee Stage of the Bill today but there are certain amendments which I would be interested in considering. They might be suitable for introduction on Report Stage. If the Seanad agrees I would be happy to have the Committee Stage now but, naturally enough, I would defer to the wishes of the House in this matter.

I take the Parliamentary Secretary's point that the only reference to credit unions is as far as the registrar is concerned and the new powers of the registrar. What is the current position concerning registration of credit unions?

The Registrar of Friendly Societies deals with the registration of credit unions at the moment but there are certain requirements in relation to who may be registrar and those are now being changed. The office already exists.

Question put and agreed to.

I understand the Parliamentary Secretary wants us to take the Committee Stage now and Report Stage at a later date.

If that is agreeable to the House.

I should like to facilitate the Parliamentary Secretary but I wonder what is to be gained by that. The disadvantage from the point of view of the House is that when we come to discuss amendments on Report Stage we will be allowed to speak only once. If the House agreed in principle with an amendment put forward by the Parliamentary Secretary but suggested a slight alteration that would not be possible. Without wanting to be unhelpful it would be better to defer Committee Stage.

Committee Stage ordered for next sitting day.
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