Seanad Éireann debate -
Wednesday, 25 May 1977

Vol. 86 No. 13

Prisons Bill, 1977: Second Stage.

Question proposed: "That the Bill be now read a Second Time."

Minister for Justice (Mr. Cooney)

This short Bill proposes to extend for a further three years section 2 of the Prisons Act, 1972, which makes provision for the transfer of prisoners from the civil prisons to military custody.

There are two reasons why the extension is needed. Firstly, it is still necessary to separate from the ordinary prisons a small number of prisoners who promote or actively engage in seriously disruptive activities. The second reason relates to the use of the General Military Hospital, Curragh Training Camp, for subversive-type prisoners who need hospital treatment and for whom a high degree of security is required.

Three years ago I said that I intended to build in the Portlaoise Prison complex a special high security prison unit to accomodate these 30 or so seriously disruptive prisoners. Preliminary planning work has started on this unit and it was intended to build it in the Portlaoise prison complex. For security reasons it has been found impossible to commence the work. Portlaoise prison has since then accommodated the main groups of subversive prisoners and they have amply demonstrated in the intervening period that they will use every means, including violence and intimidation of security personnel, to undermine security at the prison and escape if possible. In this situation it was quite impossible to contemplate starting major construction work in the prison with all the hazards this would entail for the security of the prison. Apart from the presence of building material, equipment and machinery, and the movement in and out of building material, there was the very real danger of workmen being intimidated. There is no other suitable location in the civil prison system for this special unit. None of the existing buildings would suit.

The improvements in rehabilitative facilities for prisoners are proceeding rapidly. They cannot be continued unless there is reasonable peace and calm in the prisons. Those small number of prisoners who are disruptive cannot be allowed to stand in the way of improvements for all prisoners and they must continue to be separated out of the ordinary prisons. As I said already, the long-term solution to the problem is to build a highly secure prison unit for them but at the moment this is not possible. There is no alternative, therefore, but to continue to hold them in military custody. The average number so accommodated in the past three years has been around 30 and this is the number for which the accommodation continues to be needed. I am asking that the provision for military custody should continue for another three years in the hope that it will be possible in that time to find a long-term alternative to it.

Subversive-type prisoners like those accommodated in Portlaoise Prison are prepared to use every possible means to effect their escape, and their supporters and sympathisers are likewise prepared to take any steps to rescue them. When these prisoners need hospital treatment it is essential that it be provided in as secure a setting as possible. Of necessity, ordinary hospitals are places where it is very difficult to ensure safe custody. The necessary degree of security can be provided at the General Military Hospital. Prisoners transferred to the hospital must be placed in military custody.

There has been a suggestion that instead of providing for military custody the military hospital and some additional reserve accommodation at the Curragh should be under civilian prison control, even a token civilian control. This reserve accommodation does not meet the sort of need to which I referred, but in any event, there are serious objections to having civilian controlled enclaves in the heart of a military complex, apart altogether from imposing on the military authorities an unworkable division of responsibilities. As a long-term solution to the problem it is simply impracticable.

Military custody for civilian prisoners is not something which I like in principle but I am afraid that there is no reasonable alternative to it at the present time. I am satisfied that the military authorities will continue to do everything in their power to have conditions for the prisoners as humane as possible and as close as possible to those available in the ordinary prisons. At this point I would like to pay a special tribute to the Defence Forces and especially those in the Military Police Corps, who have done so remarkably well in coping with this difficult problem both in the detention barracks and the General Military Hospital. I recognise that this work represents a great burden to them and that they would prefer not to have the job at all and it is to their credit that they have done it so well.

To sum up, I am fully satisfied that the security of the prison system makes the continuance of military custody essential and I commend the Bill to the House.

Mr. Dolan

It seems it is necessary for the Minister to have this Bill before the end of the month. I am sure that there is nothing anyone can do on this side of the House to delay it any further.

I do not like the idea of having civilians in military custody. The Minister seems to have made some attempt to rectify this over the last three years but has not been sucessful. As yet, it seems that military personnel have to be in charge of these people. There has been an enormous amount of crime and because of that I suppose there is a greater number of people in prison. It is a well acknowledged fact that many people are afraid to walk in our streets, especially in Dublin city at night. The deterrent to that type of crime is stiff prison sentences. If prison accommodation is not there, that cannot be done. It is important that we should aim at the situation where we would have corrective treatment but at the same time we should not have a lot of gardaí or military tied up taking care of prisoners when their services are needed elsewhere especially in this city.

Many people have been worried about the security in our prisons. About 12 months ago or so we had the glaring experience of people landing by helicopter in a prison. While it may have been lauded as a feat it would have a very bad effect on the ordinary law abiding citizen who likes to feel that he is protected. He would feel that security was not as strict as it should be. It is necesssary that these prisoners who have been legally convicted in the courts should serve certain terms of imprisonment. The crimes have been committed and we must have law and order in a country. To maintain law and order it has been found necessary to have imprisonment. I will not stand in the way of the Minister in getting this Bill through.

Mr. Ferris

Senator Dolan has been constructive in his contribution unlike earlier in the day when we talked about this much ado about nothing. This is an enabling Bill to continue the present situation for a further period. The Minister stated that it is a situation that he is not entirely happy about.

Speaking for my party, we would not be happy about a situation where people who should be in civilian custody are forced, through circumstances outside our control, to be in military custody. Because of the security situation in Portlaoise at present we are prevented from carrying out the necessary building there so that civil prisoners can be properly accommodated. In line with my party's thinking on prison reform, we look to the day when there can be a proper reform of the whole prison system. This measure is a backward step through circumstances outside our control. We must condemn the efforts of those in Portlaoise who have prevented this very necessary development taking place. It is extraordinary that we are prevented even in the area so close to the problem from carrying out our proper functions as a Government, that a small section of people can dominate Portlaoise Prison and not allow it proper security and buildings which would go a long way towards ensuring the proper comfort of the people in prison. If the security situation allowed it, I am sure we could provide the accommodation that they seem to be looking for every day in spite of the Minister's assurances that the situation in Portlaoise is not what has been laid down in writing by a lot of people. Ill-informed people at county council level and other levels who have very little responsibility in this matter are questioning the Minister and his statements without knowing the true facts as does the Minister. I commend the Minister on his efforts in this regard and in trying to ensure that a fair prison system operates here.

We are a progressive country, and we would like to see a lot of prison reform. I accept that this is an enabling Bill that extends the time over a period longer than what was originally deemed necesssary. I hope that the situation will improve so that we could carry out plans envisaged for Portlaoise.

Minister for Justice (Mr. Cooney)

I am obliged to the Seanad for the constructive way in which they met this proposal. It is common case on both sides of the House that the principle of putting civilians into military custody is not good. I do not have to spell out the implications that that could have but none of those draconian implications is present in the present situation. The only people who are adversely affected are the members of the Defence Forces who have to carry out duties for which they were not recruited. As far as the prisoners are concerned, the rules, the diet and the daily routine in the detention barracks in the Curragh are precisely the same as they would be in any of the civilian prisons. The prisoners see no difference except in the colour of the uniform worn by the people who have charge of the institution. The objectionable features of the principle that we are worried about do not exist.

Nevertheless, we would like to see the position restored as quickly as possible where these people can be under civilian custody. Unfortunately, I do not know whether that prospect is immediate or even in the near future because as I indicated it was my plan to build a secure unit in Portlaoise Prison but because Portlaoise Prison has had to be diverted to contain a ruthless group of criminals we cannot proceed with the building plans for Portlaoise. I cannot say at this stage, but it is possible that this temporary measure may have to be further extended. Hopefully, the conduct of the people concerned will improve to such an extent that it may be possible to return them to the ordinary civilian prisons.

Substantial progress has been made and is continuing to be made in our prisons in the regime and in the facilities offered for the improvement of prisoners. Senator Ferris referred to prison reform which is a very commendable objective but it covers an immense field. In that general area, without getting down to specifics, tremendous progress and advances have been made. Further progress cannot be made unless there is calm and peace in the prisons. In a constant situation of aggravation, unrest and dissent within the prison, progress cannot be made in expanding the areas of education and training and in expanding all the other areas where we would like to see progress. Unfortunately, the small corps of prisoners who are in the Curragh were disposed to conduct themselves in such a way as to upset the normal even running of our prisons and inhibit progress in the area of improving the prisoners' lot. They had to be separated. I can only hope that they will see the error of their ways so that it may be possible to restore them to civilian prisons. If it is not, we may in the future have to seek further extensions.

It is important to remember that there is nothing draconian or different about the routine in the Curragh from the other prisons. The only difference is the colour of the uniform. The people with whom we should have sympathy because we have to do this are the members of the Defence Forces and not the prisoners who are well cared for in the Curragh.

Question put and agreed to.