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Seanad Éireann debate -
Wednesday, 2 Nov 1977

Vol. 87 No. 2

Telephone Capital Bill, 1977 ( Certified Money Bill ) : Second Stage.

Question proposed: "That the Bill be now read a Second Time."

Since 1922 12 Bills have been enacted to provide capital for telephone development. The Bill now before the House is the 13th in the series. Like its predecessors, it is an enabling Bill. Its purpose is briefly to empower the Minister for Finance to make further capital available for telephone development up to a limit of £350 million.

With the exception of the amount provided for and a few minor drafting amendments, the text of the present Bill is the same as in the last Bill enacted in 1973. It provided for advances of up to £175 million. This figure represented the then estimated cost of meeting capital requirements during the period from mid-1973 to mid-1978. Advances made under the 1973 Act to a recent date have amounted to some £158 million. The balance remaining under the Act will not be sufficient to complete this year's investment programme. The need for a new Act now—instead of next year—is mainly due to the reduction in the value of the pound arising from the high rates of inflation experienced since 1973.

Of the £158 million already drawn, £67 million was spent on subscribers installations and local distribution plant; £44 million on new exchange equipment; £34 million on the trunk system and £13 million on buildings, sites and miscellaneous works. The total number of exchange lines in service was increased by 104,000 during the period. Local distribution net-works—that is underground ducting and cabling in built-up and overhead cabling elsewhere—were considerably expanded.

About 670 telephone kiosks were erected. Sixty-three new automatic telephone exchanges were brought into service and most of the existing automatic exchanges were extended. The extra exchange equipment installed in automatic exchanges for connecting subscribers exchange lines represented an increase of 56 per cent as compared with an increase of 39 per cent in working subscribers lines.

About 10,000 extra trunk circuits were added to the system and additional trunk equipment was provided at many centres, the largest being a new trunk exchange at Dame Court, Dublin. International Subscriber Dialling was made available in the Dublin (01) and Shannon areas to some 21 countries mostly in Western Europe and North America. Direct dialling was also extended to major cities in Britain from Dublin and the chief provincial centres. The number of international circuits. not including those to Britatin, was increased more than fourfold. New telephone buildings and extension to existing telephone buildings were completed in about 200 centres.

Because of the integrated nature of the telephone system the full benefits of some schemes already completed will not become evident until complementary works, many of which are in progress, have been carried out. While much has been done over the five years to expand and improve the system we have a long way to go to match the kind of service available in countries like Denmark and Switzerland. I need only mention our long waiting list for telephones and the service difficulties that still exist to indicate how much leeway has still to be made good.

We have the lowest telephone density in the EEC. It now stands at 15 per 100 of the population as compared with 27 telephones per 100 in France which is the next lowest.

The percentage of telephones connected to automatic exchanges at 87 per cent may seem high but the networks of all our partners in the EEC are now 100 per cent automatic except that of France which is over 97 per cent automatic. We still have over 500 small manual exchanges serving extensive areas throughout the country.

I do not intend to dwell further upon the shortcomings of the system. Commercial and industrial interests rightly stress that they constitute a hindrance to efficiency and an obstacle to attracting new industry to the country. Clearly they most be remedied as quickly as possible.

It would however be unrealistic to suggest that spectacular progress can be made within a few years in clearing arrears and resolving the problems of the system throughout the country. Even for the most advanced systems such as the Swedish and American major schemes necessary for large scale development have to be planned between five and 15 years ahead. International experience has shown that it is virtually impossible in a democratic state to expand a national telephone service as quickly as we would like because of the inescapably long intervals between initial planning and physical completion of large numbers of related works involving site acquisition, buildings, manufacture and installation of plant, training of technical staff and so on.

An outstanding example in this regard has been the modernisation of the French telephone service. The French PTT Administration began a succession of planned programmes in the 1960s to remedy as quickly as practicable the relatively undeveloped conditions in their system. Intensive efforts have been in progress there for well over a decade, but despite the advantage of a long engineering tradition and a telecommunications manufacturing industry it is only in the past few years that the rapid momentum has been gained.

Ten years ago our capital budget for telephones was about £6 million. For the current year it is £57 million and in this Bill we are providing for the probability that £350 million at current prices will be required over the next five years. This level of expenditure makes the telephone service one of the heaviest users of capital in the State. The position of our telephone service in this respect is similar to that in other developing and highly developed countries. In Britain, for instance, the capital budget of the British Post Office for the current year for telecommunications, mostly telephones, is over £1,000 million. This is required for a system which is already fully automatic. Investment in telecommunications, excluding broadcasting, in France in the current year is estimated at over £2,000 million and for the period 1976 to 1980 expenditure of £15,000 million is envisaged.

These figures are an indication of the demand which the provision of a modern telephone system makes on available capital. This is due to the huge potential for growth of the telephone service itself, which is likely to remain for a long time ahead the most important form of telecommunication, and to the fact that it provides the basic network for other forms of telecommunication including such services as telex, television, data links between computers, telecopying, and so on.

The £350 million development programme proposed for the next five years has four main objectives:—to increase the annual rate of connections progressively from about 45,000 at present to 85,000; to raise to 96 per cent the percentage of automatic telephones and provide for progress to full automatic as soon as possible; to further expand and improve the quality of service in order to attract and handle efficiently a high level of increase in traffic; and to make advance arrangements for the acquisition of sites, contracts for buildings and manufacture of equipment to provide for continuing progress in the years beyond 1982.

In order to achieve these objectives it is planned to spend about £135 million on subscribers' installations and local network development, £70 million on local exchange development, £110 million on trunk development, £28 million on buildings and £7 million on miscellaneous works. I propose to comment briefly on each of these broad divisions of the programme.

On installation of subscribers telephones, including provisions of local underground and overhead plant, the programme proposed in connection with the 1973 Act envisaged that a target of 460,000 subscribers lines would be reached in 1978. It has not been possible to speed the connection rate sufficiently to reach this figure, but on the basis of connection targets for this year and next a figure approaching 420,000 should be reached, leaving a shortfall of about 40,000. This is roughly the number of applications on the waiting list at present.

In the past three years effective annual demand has been between 36,000 and 39,000 despite the economic conditions. This year there has been evidence of a rise in demand and with recovery of the economy, demand in the years ahead can be expected to increase rapidly. Connections on the scale envisaged over the next five years will bring the total number of exchange lines in service to around 575,000 by 1982 and the number of telephones to 775,000, representing a density of 23 per 100 population.

To reach these figures it will be necessary to expand the subscriber underground and overhead plant network thorughout the country very extensively. In doing so provision will be made for further rapid growth in the years immediately following the current programme period.

In order to meet demand for new subscribers lines, 22 new automatic exchanges will be provided in the Dublin, Cork, Galway and Limerick automatic exchange areas and the equipment in virtually all other automatic exchange areas will be extended. It is planned to convert 270 manual exchanges to automatic working. This includes provision of a major auto-manual exchange at Letterkenny—at present in progress—which will complete the planned number of auto-manual centres. Some 330,000 extra automatic exchange line terminations will be installed in automatic exchanges.

The capacity of the trunk network will be greatly increased and large scale extensions will be made to the trunk system serving most major centres. In total it is planned to bring over 22.000 additional trunk circuits into service. A number of major new trunk routes will be provided including a microwave link to Britain over the Irish Sea between Dublin and Welsh mountains.

Automatic dialling facilities to Belfast, London, Birmingham, Glasgow, Liverpool and Manchester areas, which have recently been made available in Dublin and certain large provincial centres will be extended progressively to all automatic exchanges over the next 12 months. Further extensions will be made as quickly as they can be arranged with the British Post Office.

In the course of the next two years subscribers in eight large provincial centres will be provided with the facility for dialling calls direct to most European and North American countries. The facility will be extended progressively to other centres as quickly as practicable.

International telephone call traffic has continued to grow rapidly in recent years. In order to cater for further growth of calls, substantial additions to the international exchange equipment will be made.

The availability of adequate accommodation in good time is a basic essential for rapid development of the telephone service. Difficulties in acquiring sites and in having buildings erected quickly have in the past been a main cause of slowing telephone development.

The provision of new buildings or extensions of existing buildings to house telephone equipment and/or staff are already in hand or planned at over 260 centres. Major new buildings will be provided in the Dublin 01 Area at Ballyboden, Clondalkin, Dolphin's Barn, Lucan, Palmerstown, Sandyford and Terenure. Outside Dublin the centres will include Athlone, Carrick-on-Shannon, Dongeal, Drogheda, Ennis, Galway, Kilkenny, Limerick, Navan, Cork, Sligo, Tralee, Tuam, Waterford and Westport. The new automanual exchange and district telecommunications headquarters building being erected at Churchfield, Cork, will be the biggest telecommunications building project yet undertaken in the State.

A small number of STD coinboxes have been in experimental use in selected public call offices in Dublin and provincial areas for some time with satisfactory results. Within the programme period it is planned to replace on an extensive scale existing coinboxes with STD boxes from which trunk calls can be dialled, commencing with the public boxes which are most used for trunk calls.

There are at present over 35,000 coinbox telephones in the country, including about 3,000 public telephones, kiosks and call offices, which account for 35 per cent of all operator controlled trunk calls. As the telephone system moves towards fully automatic working, replacement of the existing coinbox, which requires the assistance of an operator for trunk calls, becomes of increasing importance in order that the benefits of automatic working to users can by fully secured.

Policy in regard to kiosks has been that they are provided only where they are considered likely to pay their way and existing facilities are regarded as not meeting reasonable need for public telephone facilities. This policy still applies in urban areas. In 1969 it was decided to undertake a programme for providing subsidised kiosks in rural areas by replacing call office telephones in rural post offices by outdoor kiosks with 24-hour service. All but about 350 of the 2,000 odd call office telephones in rural post offices have been replaced by kiosks. With few exceptions the stage has now been reached where kiosks provided in replacement of the remaining call offices would be unlikely to pay their way even with a very substantial subsidy.

A scheme whereby local authorities may have kiosks provided at their request under guarantee against loss in areas where the Department considers them unlikely to pay their way is also in operation. About 100 kiosks have been provided under this scheme, mainly in areas where there is no post office and accordingly no public telephone. I am having an examination made of the present arrangements for providing rural kiosks to see whether they can be improved.

It is proposed to convert the larger Government manual private branch exchanges to automatic working. This will improve the service given and reduce operating costs.

Growth in the volume of international call traffic will warrant provision of a satellite earth station during the next decade. A site and radio interference study to identify technically suitable locations have been commissioned. It is expected that some costs of providing the station will be incurred in the period of the proposed programme.

The feasibility of introducing a mobile public radio telephone service enabling calls to be dialled between vehicles and the public telephone system is being examined both from the technical viewpoint and in relation to the likely extent of demand for such a service. While the main emphasis in use of resources must be on meeting more basic needs, it is hoped within the next programme period to commence arrangements for the introduction of a mobile radio telephone service.

As previously mentioned, the telephone network provides the transmission of microwave links for televi-vices, such as data transmission, telex, television, facsimile transmission. At present an extensive programme is in progress for replacement and extension of miscrowave links for television; and the use of microwave links for special purposes such as offshore communications is likely to increase considerably in future years. Equipment for data transmission—between computers—over telephone lines is supplied by the Department on a rental basis. The demand for this service is expected to grow rapidly with the accelerated growth of multiple access computer networks.

At present the most modern switching equipment in widespread use among telephone administrations is the electro-mechanical crossbar common control type. About 75 per cent of automatic equipment in this country is crossbar, the remainder being the older Strowger, step-by-step, equipment.

In recent years the advanced manufacturing countries have made much progress in the design and production of electronic exchanges. It is clear that these will be the exchanges of the future. They are most compact, require less maintenance and offer the possibility of giving subscribers a wider range of facilities. Although many electronic exchanges are already in use abroad there is not yet clear evidence as to which designs will prove most satisfactory. It is likely that within the next few years an electronic exchange will be purchased on a trial basis for use in this country. However, a first requirement here as elsewhere is that the electronic exchange shall interwork with the electro-mechanical exchanges already in service. A feature of telephones systems everywhere, and especially in the most highly developed countries, is that investment is so enormous that no administration will scrap its existing equipment in favour of new designs, even if substantially more attractive. An instance of this is that Strowger-type exchange equipment which the Department discontinued purchasing, except for extension of existing exchanges, in 1962 is still in use throughout the world and in Britain forms 80 per cent of the network.

Turning to the general financial position of the telephone service, I would like initially to emphasise that despite losses in recent years investment in the service is basically a sound proposition. Capital invested in it is fully paid for by the users of the service over a period. Moreover an appreciable part of the capital invested comes from within the service. Of the £350 million required for the next programme it is estimated that £120 million will be financed by depreciation provisions. Over the past few years the telephone service has secured loans amounting to over £50 million from the European Investment Bank. More recently grants from the European Regional Development Fund of over £6 million have been approved for telephone projects.

For almost 40 years until the 1971-72 financial year the telephone service operated at a profit. The period of the 1973 Act has been one of exceptional difficulty for the finances of the service, due to the concurrent incidence of high inflation, high interest rates and economic recession. The first two of these factors combined to raise the cost of the service sharply and the third depressed growth of traffic and prevented the higher costs being offset by the additional revenue the traffic would have brought.

A programme for rapid expansion in a capital intensive service such as telephones normally results in fall off in profit or even in temporary loss. Plant and equipment for the needs of an enlarged system have to be provided some time in advance of being brought into use and to that extent a burden is imposed on the revenue of the service. Under stable conditions profit would recover within a relatively short period of time with the growth in traffic.

Costs increased overall by almost 150 per cent from £34.4 million in 1973-74 to an estimated £85.6 million in 1977, some £34 million of the increase being attributable to the effects of inflation. Telephone charges were increased in the same period but because of the difficult economic conditions growth of call traffic was below normal levels. The loss for the current year after deductions of interest and depreciation charges is estimated at £7.6 million.

It is expected that the service will revert to its traditional profit-earning position within the period of the programme proposed. Call traffic will grow more rapidly with the return of more favourable economic conditions. Moreover the more rapid addition of subscribers lines as well as yielding extra revenue from connection and rental charges will increase call revenue.

A major benefit of the programme, which is of considerable importance in the current economic situation, is the amount of employment which the programme itself will generate. At present there are about 13,000 people employed on the telephone service within my Department, and an estimated 2,000 more employed by contractors in the erection of exchange buildings, manufacture and installation of equipment, supply and laying of ducts and cables.

The £350 million programme will give rise to an estimated 7,000 additional jobs. The bulk of these new jobs will be created within the Department. The aim is that there will be a build-up of recruitment over the five-year period according as extra staff can be used productively, as there are limits on the numbers which can be usefully absorbed at any given time. Most of the extra jobs will arise on the engineering side; in the technician installer, labour and trainee grades. There will be more jobs for engineering graduates too and some extra in the clerical and administrative grades. Of course, the creation of the additional jobs will depend on the speedy and efficient implementation of the development programme.

I commend the Bill to the House.

I should like to extend the customary welcome to the new Minister for Posts and Telegraphs and hope that his period in office will be crowned with the success and progress which his efforts will deserve. He is taking on a heavy responsibility. The field of telecommunications is a most important area for development. Coming as I do from an area which has suffered severely from the handicap of bad communications, I feel especially at this stage that the programme of expenditure which has been embarked upon by the Minister is of vital importance to the development of the less favoured areas of the country.

I should like also to congratulate the outgoing Minister for Posts and Telegraphs. A far-sighted journalist wrote a few years ago that the foundations being laid so carefully and with such dedication by the then Minister for Posts and Telegraphs could lead to a situation where future Ministers would claim credit for the tremendous progress which would undoubtedly follow the serious efforts being made at that time. The then Minister is with us today and perhaps he will have some views to express on the subject. I should like to record my appreciation of the progress that was made during his term of office.

I am sure all public representatives have noticed that when people come to us with problems the emphasis changes from year to year. If anybody were to ask me what is the most pressing and urgent problem that continually comes up in the course of my work as a public representative, I would say that people are demanding a better and more extended telephone service and are becoming very impatient about the fact that this most vital service is so slow in reaching all those who rightly expect to be covered by it at the moment. I realise of course that there are tremendous difficulties.

As a public representative I would feel much happier if the public generally were aware of how the decisions are made regarding the provision of a telephone service to individuals. The subject probably has come up before but it is no harm to mention it again. The ordinary applicant for connection to the service should know where he stands, what his chances are, where he is on the priority scale and within what length of time he can expect to have service provided for him. Most politicians have enough to do without carrying useless messages to and fro between the Department of Posts and Telegraphs and business people or private subscribers on the subject of when they can get a telephone and the reason for the delay.

There should be a clear points system laid down by which every section of the community would know their entitlement. Applicants for private telephones will be fairly quick to understand that they must be put on the waiting list after those who need the service more urgently. In particular, farmers should get a very high priority rating, together with all employers. As we know, farmers have all become business people, but in fact each farm is an isolated business and we have experience lately of all the extra services that farmers require. Farmers are involved in communicating with outside businesses and services very regularly and often many times a day—for instance, veterinary services, AI services, supplies and so on. These things take farmers away from their place of work, make the running of their operation much more inefficient and generally contribute to lower production in agriculture than we should expect to have. For these reasons a good telephone service is of tremendous importance to the agricultural community. It should be clearly laid down what a farmer's priority rating is and a farmer making application should get an indication within six, eight or ten weeks of his original application as to when he can reasonably expect to have that service provided for him.

It is regrettable, and in my experience it has happened, that the occasional Post Office employee, manual or white collar worker, will say to people who make inquiries over the telephone, "Well, that is all I can tell you, but maybe you should consult your local representative, county councillor, Deputy, Senator or whomever it may be." I am not saying this is general but certainly to my knowledge it has happened on more than one occasion and it is very regrettable that this sort of attitude should be shown by any employee of any Department. The present Minister should seek to have the full position regarding supply of these services clarified as soon as possible because I believe that the vast majority of applicants tend to have the impression, rightly or wrongly, that if they approach people in political positions they will get the service sooner than the neighbour who does not make any such move.

In areas such as the one in which I have experience of working, one of the greatest handicaps we have had to suffer in the past few years is the slowness of our telephone services, the lack of automatic installations and, in addition, the rather deficient service from the exchanges where personnel were, I suppose, actually doing their very best but nevertheless could not cope with the amount of work. I saw lately where some journalist trying to contact a Senator of this House, commented on the fact that he could not make out what that Senator was saying, but when he realised that the Senator lived in the Leitrim-West Cavan area, he said he was not surprised because the service was so bad in such a remote area. I am not worried about the ordinary citizen getting that impression but I am worried that potential industrialists would get such an impression-people who visit the country, people involved in the tourist industry.

For all these reasons the underdeveloped areas should get a special priority. We have the handicap of long and sometimes difficult roads but to people living in remote areas the handicap of a difficult telephone service is just as severe as bad roads. I would appeal to the Minister to make a special effort on behalf of those areas to give the service there attention above the national average in order to provide some advantages for these people.

I welcome the fact that the Minister says that the telephone service will in the future become self-sufficient and pay for itself and, perhaps, have money to invest in further development. It is not a good thing for the public generally to expect some sort of subsidisation of this service. It is sufficient to pick out a group of people like the aged, the physically handicapped or other groups of people who should get free telephone services. That is reasonable and I believe that this is as far as subsidisation of this service should go. The vast majority of people who want a good service are quite prepared to pay whatever it costs to have this service provided.

People who are providing this service should be under an obligation to provide it at a competitive price which will enable industrialists to use the service. If we have not got the buffer of a Government prepared to subsidise when the going gets tough, then the people who give the service should have to meet the consumer face to face. They should have to account to the consumer for what the service costs and the standards being provided for the payment. That is the healthiest situation. That is the principle on which we should build the service in the future. I would hope that in the very near future the whole telecommunications service will be in a position to pay for itself and that those who cannot afford it and need it, like the categories I have mentioned, will be subsidised and that this will be the policy of the Government.

With all the development that has taken place, I can see the necessity in some areas for long stretches of new lines to be provided. From time to time the Department of Posts and Telegraphs take on quite a number of temporary people and then leave them off again. These people are usually taken on by contact with the local employment exchanges. We might have a more satisfactory situation if we could work out some sort of system by which we would contract out to individual contractors these bigger jobs or larger extensions of lines—the erection of poles over areas of a mile or upwards. We might in that way reduce to some extent the difficulties encountered by the Department because the further they develop the more complicated the machinery becomes and I believe the job will be less efficient in the long run. The Department already contract out the building of exchanges and I see no reason why they could not contract out the laying of lines. There is a lot of work yet to be done. It is a good time for the Minister to look at the possibility of giving some of this work on an ordinary contract basis to private individuals who would fairly soon equip themselves to do the job efficiently.

In the case of internal communication in industry, I see outside companies coming in after the Department of Posts and Telegraphs have provided the service and recommending improvements and the removal of some of the switches. This is a pity and the Department should have the expertise to advise companies on systems of internal communications. Since they provide the service from the outside, they have the first opportunity to assist in this area and, like the ESB, there is room to give a better service and more advice.

These are the points I want to make. For the underdeveloped areas this is the most important service we have. I want to ask the Minister to recognise the problems of areas in the northwest and west which have had a very bad service in the past and to give them their share of what is coming in the future.

I should like to welcome the Bill and join in welcoming the Minister to the Seanad. He has given us a very comprehensive and detailed explanatory speech regarding the purposes of this Bill, but there are a few points which would perhaps bear further emphasis, particularly the role of communications. Earlier this afternoon we were talking about exports and industrial development, and effective communications are an absolute necessity in this respect, especially since this country is so isolated geographically. Communication is much easier from Britain or the mainland of Europe. If we are to compete effectively it is essential that standards of communications should be equal to and preferably above those elsewhere in Western Europe. We will have to use our telephonic communications more than people elsewhere.

I am delighted to see this Bill and this emphasis on telecommunications. As well as the industrial necessity of improved telecommunications, in order to provide a richer cake as it were, there is also the personal aspect. We cannot emphasise too much the importance of an efficiently functioning telephone service to old people, to those who for one reason or another are isolated and to people who are ill. It is absolutely essential that these people have some means of communicating and to this end I am delighted to know that it is hoped to double the rate of individual connections.

I particularly notice that expenditure on the number of underground cables will be increased because this seems to be one of the more difficult aspects in developing telephone connections. The other essential point regarding the development of telecommunications is the very long time lag between the initiation of developments and their actual fruition. It is essential that we look ahead to the numerous changes in technical advances and that we plan for the provision of staff well ahead of the time when they will be required. I am glad the Minister has emphasised this aspect; it has not been sufficiently emphasised in the past. We should look at it very carefully and realise that the rate of growth is likely to exceed the present estimates rather than fall below them.

It is certainly worth emphasising that capital investment in telecommunications is profitable. It is one of the areas where the State, or private enterprise as the case may be, can spend funds in the knowledge that throughout virtually the entire history of the Post Office here the telephone service has paid and the likelihood is that by increasing the facilities available revenue will increase also. One is getting a direct return on the capital employed, quite apart from the spinoff in the development of industrialisation which is likely to be encouraged. I would concur with those who would say that it is difficult sometimes to attract industry to this country if one has to confess that the telephone service is not as fully up to date as it might be.

I should like very much to welcome this Bill and am delighted that the Minister and the Government have made this a priority in legislation for this session.

As this is the first occasion I have had to speak in the Seanad I should like to extend my congratulations to you on your election as Cathaoirleach and also to Senator McCartin on his election as Leas-Chathaoirleach here today. I should like also to extend my congratulations and good wishes to the Minister, my successor in that office.

The Bill before us is to be welcomed, but our welcome for it should be a somewhat cautious one in that we should be quite clear what we are doing. As the Minister has said, this is an enabling Bill only. It does not provide or guarantee any investment or any given level of investment. That depends on the Government from year to year. It is not hard to introduce a Bill like this and I am not criticising the Bill or the Minister. The Bill was, of course, prepared under the previous Government and is as it would have been if a Coalition Minister had been introducing it. Such Bills are desirable in themselves but they guarantee nothing at all. Therefore it should not be taken that the Oireachtas have now decided on a given level of investment. They have not. They have put a figure on what it might be if the Government from year to year provide that it will reach this level.

The Bill itself provides no time scale, and this is the usual practice. It does not set out that this money is to be spent within five years or whatever. The Minister's speech gave the impression, without altogether saying so, that it is intended the money should be spent over the next five years. He refers to the probability that £350 million at current prices will be required over the next five years. If the implication of that is actually met it would be welcome because it would be providing a level of investment approximately corresponding to that which has been maintained over the past four years.

The Minister acknowledged in his speech that it is only in the past few years that rapid momentum has been maintained in this matter. I think that is so. But what is important, in the public interest and in the interests of the future of our economy to which the last speaker Senator Conroy rightly referred, is that the level of investment which has now been achieved should be sustained.

We should bear in mind that the level of total investment in the past four years is higher than what was invested up to 1973—it is higher than that but it is also higher than the totality of investment in Irish telephones in the history of the telephone system. The achievement of that level of investment represents a kind of break through; and what is important is not just that we should pass this Bill but that we should know that that level of investment will be sustained.

What I am trying to do is not to make a party political point, though it may sound like that at times. What is important for both the Minister and myself, because I am sure we see eye to eye on this matter—any Minister for Posts and and Telegraphs would see eye to eye with any other Minister for Posts and Telegraphs irrespective of party—is that this momentum, however it was achieved or under whomsoever it was achieved, should be maintained.

That simply cannot be taken for granted and we should not in debating this matter in this House take it for granted and say: "It is great, £350 million for telephone development, Bob's your uncle." It is not like that because at the beginning of this decade, during the period 1970-71, the then Minister for Posts and Telegraphs, my predecessor, Deputy Collins, put forward his demands for capital investment. He made his case and the then Minister for Finance simply cut them back drastically. The then Minister for Posts and Telegraphs protested but his protest was ignored, not even answered, just swept aside on the ground that there was some financial stringency in that year; and the telephone system of this country suffered for years after that from the consequences of that decision.

In 1974-75 this country passed through a period of economic stress greatly exceeding that which occurred in 1970 and I am proud to say the Government did not do what was done in 1970, did not cut back on the telephone service. They held that this was essential for our economic future and development and they kept up that level of investment and I hope that that will happen in the future. I am quite certain that this Minister will press for that but what I should like to be sure of is that he will be successful, because the political problem about telephone development is that it does not pay off in the short-term. Some reasons for that are indicated by the Minister when he said here earlier:

Even for the most advanced system such, as the Swedish and American, major schemes necessary for large scale development have to be planned between five and 15 years ahead.

He said elsewhere:

A programme for rapid expansion in a capital intensive service such as telephones normally results in fall off in profit, or even in temporary loss. Plants and equipment for the needs of an enlarged system have to be provided for some in advance of being brought into use, and to that extent a burden is imposed on the revenue of this service. Under stable conditions profit would recover within a relatively short period of time with the growth in traffic.

But that is ahead. So the position is, when a Government have to take decisions on this matter that they know if they are to provide the large investment required, will not be felt for years. On the other hand, if you are going to say, "Well, the borrowing level of the State is already high, there are other projects that will pay off quicker", the Government also know that the damage done by that cut back will not be felt for several years, and that is a rather dangerous combination. I think it is because of that combination of factors that in the past this State did not achieve the necessary momentum in telephone development, so that we are still at the bottom of that EEC table as we have been so long.

I am asking the Minister, not to embarrass him, but on the contrary in an attempt to strengthen his hand, for an assurance that the level of telephone capial investment which has been achieved in the past four years will be maintained in real terms as long as he is Minister for Posts and Telegraphs. If he can give the House this assurance—he implied something like it in his speech but I should like something better than an implication; I should like a firm and clear statement here that it will be his policy to do that—that he will do his level best to ensure that it is made good, then he will be doing something concrete.

A Leas-Chathaoirleach, ba mhaith liom comhgháirdeas a dhéanamh leat as ucht do thogha ar dtús, agus ba mhaith liom fáilte a chur roimh an Aire ar a chéad turas chun an Teach seo mar Aire Poist agus Telegrafa.

There are a couple of points in the discussion on this Bill that I should like to make. First of all I think that Senator Conroy was correct when he suggested that instead of being behind Europe in communication we should be ahead because of the size of our country and because of the competitive situation in which we are participating. Communication is one of the key factors in modern business and in development. What I think Senator Conroy was emphasising was that if we are to be competitive we must have a first class communications system instead of being where we are, when the number of telephones is at the level of 15 per 100 against the French average of 27 per 100.

The Minister in his speech has covered the total area, as far as I can see. He has dealt with the wide area of new installation such as the exchange lines, trunk lines, automatic exchanges, new buildings and so on. I am sure that every Member on both sides of the House would encourage him and support him in that programme. There is one minor point that I should like to make having regard to correspondence which I still receive in relation to the provision of private telephone lines.

Looking back on the past couple of years many of us would have been a little bit easier in our minds as public representatives if we could have given a clearer picture of the rate of connection of lines in different areas. I am saying that with the knowledge that in many areas some information was available, but one was being constantly approached, phoned and so on, been asked "When can I get my line? I have got an answer that says that I might not have it for three months or four months or five months".

Looking ahead to the next three or four years, I suggest the Minister should set up some kind of survey to produce a detailed statement of the hoped for rate of connection in different exchange areas. It would be a help to elected representatives because we could at least be able to show reasonably fair methods employed by the Minister's technical staff in their efforts to satisfy the public demand for telephones.

One of the questions I should like to put to the Minister is about his reference to a satellite earth station. Is this to be one we will be sharing with other countries, with Europe for example? The impression I get is that it would apply only to this country.

I would impress on the Minister again the need to be competitive, to be efficient in communication. I would encourage him to bring about that change to provide a connection for those who have telephones for mobile telephones, so they can use private radio telephones through the ordinary phone system. This may be anything but essential to the great majority of the people but it can be essential to a small number who provide a very effective industrial contribution.

The speech of the Minister is too broad to be dealt with adequately unless one had it in advance. I should like to know from the Minister, bearing in mind the very significant contribution of the European Investment Bank in the past four-and-a-half or five years, what he would envisage by way of contribution by way of loan from the bank in the current year and the coming financial year. My understanding is that the loans from the European Investment Bank were available and are available pro rata to the capital that we are putting into the telephone system. If there is any information available to the Minister I should appreciate it. It is relevant in view of the fact that Iris Oifigiúil says we have received no loan since 1st January from either the European Investment Bank or any other overseas banking system.

In closing I should like to compliment the technical staff of the department of Posts and Telegraphs for the work they are doing and have been doing. Also I should like to urge the Minister to ensure that this full programme will be put into operation. Quite apart from the contribution it will make to our economy and the estimated 7,000 additional jobs, there is the need to have the most efficient communications system possible.

I offer the customary congratulations to the new Minister and assure him that for my own part—so far in the debate I felt that this has applied to all the other contributors— what I have to say, and I will have one or two sharp comments to make, will be offered in a constructive and what I believe to be a helpful sense. Everybody recognises that his job is a difficult one, and not in a personal sense. The post of Minister for Posts and Telegraphs is a difficult one because it is hard to satisfy people in regard to a service which we must acknowledge is not as efficient as any of us would like.

I am grateful that the Minister had such a lengthy speech which contained a good deal of facts, but in a way it represents to me as a speech what I find to be wrong with the whole service of the Department of Posts and Telegraphs—with the communication service. There seems to be a lack of analysis in it and a lack of plan in it. This Bill is only about money: it is only an enabling Bill about money. The real expenditures will be decided annually when people sit down to make a budget, and it will not be the decision of the Minister for Posts and Telegraphs; it will be the decision of his Cabinet colleagues as a whole when they are considering all of the spending of the whole Government. This is an enabling measure. We will wait to see how much will be spent annually.

I should have liked to have had some sort of analysis, some sort of plan in it. I am very pleased that we had the contribution from the Minister's predecessor. It was both interesting and realistic, and benevolent in the literal sense of the word: he was trying to be helpful and wishing well for the service and for the present Minister and he was saying some essential things. The reason I believe that Senator Cruise-O'Brien will be remembered as a very good Minister for Posts and Telegraphs is because he was able to bring enough clout to the Cabinet table to get enough money every year, not through enabling legislation but at budget making, and see that the money was spent. He did not want to make a party political point. Perhaps I will be less delicate in the matter because I think a lot of our difficulties, and the long time lag in the whole of the communications service acknowledged in the Minister's speech, are there because the previous Government inherited a situation where there had been insufficient investment and insufficient planning over a long period, and that is not quickly cured. It was our great good fortune that the last Minister had the clout and when necessary the acerbity at the Government table to get the investment up and the Government are taking back the reins of power at a time when those years of effort are beginning to pay off.

When we say "Fine, we are delighted at an enabling piece of legislation", we hope, as Senator Cruise-O'Brien said, that this enablement, if that is the appropriate word, will be put into effect in the annual budget every year and that the level of expenditure will be kept up and increased, because this in a sense is an area where a cut does not show itself for perhaps five or ten years. Lots of things you cannot cut coming through the pipeline, but this you can cut and it has been cut year after year precisely because of the long time lag to which the Minister made reference.

We are happy to say "yes" to this enabling of expenditure but we are entitled to ask what the Minister proposes to do with the money, and we are entitled to more than the factual listing we got in the Minister's speech. I want for a few moments to offer the House some of the conclusions I came to during a period in office in a Department where the quality of the communications service was relevant. I want to tell the House—I mentioned it in a previous speech—the main things that overseas investors wanted to know. They wanted to know about the state of labour relations, about export tax relief, the quality of the transport service and the quality of the communications service. These were the four big things in Japan and the United States. They knew that our communications service was bad, and we could not say otherwise in truth, and it influenced their decisions. The quality of communications is totally enmeshed with the whole question of economic development and the rate of economic progress which we all desire, inseparably so.

I want to offer the conclusion that has been forced on me more and more as the years pass and especially as a result of the period in office when I saw the machine operating in another way. In parenthesis I should like to assure the Leas-Chathoirleach—I was very interested in what he said—that the inadequacy that he described does not refer to his part of the country only. Without wishing any ill to his part of the country, I can only say would that it only applied there, but I happen to live in the 045 code area and I simply do not use my telephone, as a lot of other people do not, because I know that the effort to do so would result in an increase in blood pressure and delay. I would use it four times as much if I was sure that simply dialling would get me the person I wanted to talk to, as it does in America, Denmark or any part of Scandinavia. The question of improving quality generates a dramatically faster growth than the general growth of the economy which is being served by that communications system. Many of us are not using the communications service to the extent that in efficiency we ought to do, simply because of its defects. That applies in areas, I say with regret, a Leas-Chathaoirleach, all over the country. We must not deceive ourselves that the situation is satisfactory even though there has been great improvement.

Where do I want a plan, where do I want a bit of analysis. May I refer to a new Senator and I hope he will come in on this, Senator Noel Mulcahy? I hope he will give us his mind on it because he brings to the Oireachtas a very useful knowledge of what management is and how it can be applied. That seems to me in the whole communications industry of this country strikingly not to be present because the management problem of communications are beautiful ones in their technical sense because you are planning five, ten and 15 years down the road. You are making hopefully elegant guesses about what the economy will be like at future times and about the cost of money. You are making elegant guesses hopefully of how much of your GNP you can afford to put into the communications industry in years five, seven and ten. You have to do elegant things about the rate of promotion selling of your products, the sort of rate of return that will give you and how fast that will enable you to grow.

There are a beautiful management, long term and short term, money and technology questions in all of communications. It seems to me that those are questions that the Department of Posts and Telegraphs are hardly aware of the existence of let alone the solutions for them.

A compliment was paid by Senator Brugha to the technical people in Posts and Telegraphs. I feel the same about them. As human beings, when one meets them out of office, not in their formal capacity, they are often defensive, sorry and sick people because they are not satisfied with the way they are enabled to perform for the public in the way in which they wish to perform. The reason for that, it seems to me, is the structural one. The reason for that it seems to me is an example of the classic division we have in our public service between administrative and technical. Technical people never get a fair chance and the administrative people do not know about the sort of expertise, be it electronic, technological, communications theory, management theory or long-term money theory, that has to be brought to the solution of these problems.

Therefore I ask the fundamental question, not for an answer now. I am not saying that I am convinced this is the solution, but we are entitled on a Bill that enables a large amount of money to be spent over five years, without being out of order, to raise this sort of question. Is the administrative structure of having the communications service within the civil service the right structure? I am not for a moment advocating it being given to the private sector as exists in some countries. Everyone must say fairly, and I say this as a socialist, it is a mechanism that provides an efficient service in some countries. I want to see it remain in the public sector, but the mere spending of large amounts of money will not guarantee efficiency. I think one of the barriers is the structure, that the question of a public corporation and the taking it out of the homogeneous membership of the civil service and giving it autonomy and giving it certain rules that public corporations can operate by and that the civil service cannot, may be the necessary thing that will liberate the creative energy that we know to exist among the technical people in the communications sector of our civil service.

There are two conditions for solving a problem that I hope we all agree is a serious one. One is that the Minister has enough clout once a year when the budget is being made to get enough money to keep up the level of investment, and on that battle all we can do is to wish him well. The other is that we look at a fundamental reorganisation that will liberate some of the creative energy that we know is there and to bring the technological and managerial knowledge that we know is in the country to bear quickly and fundamentally on a problem that we are convinced is essential of solution if we are not to be inhibited in our economic growth.

Sé an céad dualgas orm ná tréaslú leat as ucht do thogadh mar Leas-Chathaoirleach. Ba mhaith liom tréaslú leis an Aire freisin. Tá job mór anois aige. Bhí sé anchúramach ar fad in a chuid oibre nuair a bhí sé ina Aire Oideachais agus táim lánchinnte go ndéanfaidh sé an cúram céanna den obair atá roimhe faoi láthair. Tréaslaím leis an Aire freisin as ucht ráiteas dá leitheid seo a thabhairt do gach éinne againn. Is fada fadó o bhfuaireas aon rud chomh héifeachtach, chomh soiléir agus chomh hiomlán leis an ráiteas san. Leag sé amach go cruinn agus go macánta na costaisí a bhainfidh leis an bhforás mór atá i gceist aige maidir le cúrsaí teileafóin agus teileachumarsáide. Guím gach rath air agus tá súil agam go mbeidh an chuid is mó nó b'fhéidir an obair ar fad críochnaithe aige um an dtaca seo cúig bliana ó inniu.

The amount being legislated for, £350 million, is a sizeable sum of money no matter how you look at it, but the fact that that sum is written into this enabling Bill is indicative of the intention and the purpose of the Government and the Minister. There is a colossal job in front of the Department to bring our telephone service up to what it should be, now that we are members of the European Economic Community, and at the outset I will throw this out and I hope somebody will take up the point—I am sure the Minister will deal with it: is there a case for separating Posts from Telegraphs, telegraphs and telephones, "telecommunications" would probably be more accurate now? There are two entirely different disciplines. Post offices have to deal with stamps, saving certificates, the Savings Bank, allowances and so on whereas telecommunications, as we understand telephones and telegraphs to be, is a major service industry requiring the highest skills not alone in construction and installing but in maintenance.

The Minister listed the type of people who will be employed in this five-year plan, maintenance technicians, installers and graduates, undoubtedly graduates in the field of electrical engineering. I hope he will see to it that a proper balance is kept between administration and field work, and as far as electrical engineers are concerned that conditions will be made as attractive as possible for them. I know of an electrical engineer who left the service within the last couple of years a disappointed man. He expected that his talents would be used to the utmost; he was very keen on the work he was trained to do as an electrical engineer, but he found that most of the work he was asked to do was of the administrative kind. That is most discouraging to a young graduate who is full of ideas and wants to give the best his talents can enable him to do to the service of his country in the particular service he had chosen to work in.

At present a first class service is an absolute necessity for us all. It is no longer a luxury and as time marches on it becomes more of a necessity. Earlier we were dealing with the Export Promotion (Amendment) Bill, 1977, and during that debate the thought occurred to me: what could be done about export promotion or the promotion of any sort of industry if we did not have telecommunications? The whole thing would fall. The Department responsible for telecommunications has become one of the most important Departments in the State. Therefore we must have the best planning, the best engineers and the best industrial relations in order that we have the sort of efficient service that is necessary nowadays.

A telephone is an absolute necessity for the farmer now since farming is a big industry. There is a question of personal communication and a telephone is one of the great levellers socially, one of the great solaces and one of the great comforts socially. Many of us have made friends over the telephone with people we probably may never meet. In the times we are living in the more friendships we can make by telephone as well as meeting in person, the better. We should think of all the friendships many of us have made with people overseas, friendships we have made with people in the Six Counties, in Britain, on the Continent and in the USA. All these things help to build very good relations: our status as a nation will to a large extent be measured by the type of communications we have in order to get in touch, converse and do business with people all over the world. I mention specially the great solace a telephone is to old people, to those living alone with no relatives living near especially and who may be subjected to violence. People living in isolated areas are in constant fear of unwelcome visitors, violent robbers and so on and a telephone is a godsend to those people. They feel they have help at hand by the dialling of a number. We must all commend the Minister for the arrangements made by which certain pensioners will be allowed to have a telephone free of rental. That is a great step forward.

Kiosks were mentioned. "Kiosk" is almost a dirty word for those of us who were on the Seanad campaign last summer. Somebody may ask what a kiosk is. Those of us who were on the campaign can say what a kiosk was at that time. It was a nicely built little hut from which one could not make a telephone call. That is a definition of most of the kiosks we had reason to use. Vandalism is, of course, the problem. How can we overcome it? I have given the matter a lot of thought, have discussed it with various people and come to the conclusion that we may have made those little huts too attractive. Maybe they are too well built. The fittings are similar to those we have in our own homes and offices. In the future when building these kiosks they should not have four walls just a pillar with a little shelter over it, unbreakable glass, steel sheeting and that sort of thing and have them is as public a place as possible with a minimum of comfort. If we came across a kiosk that worked they were occupied by young people having long conversations possibly using a telephone line to do a line of their own, and we had to wait until they were finished. That is the reason I suggest putting as little comfort as possible into kiosks that will be built in the future.

One of the big problems facing the Minister is one with which we could help him a lot. We should help him dispel the idea that his only job is to instal more telephones, provide more telephones for more people. That is part of his work, but the big imponderable was referred to by him in his speech. He mentioned things that would have been unheard of even five years ago—a satellite earth station, a mobile public radio telephone service, transmission services, data transmission, telex, television facsimile transmission. He told us that at present an extensive programme is in progress for replacement and extension of microwaves for television and the use of microwaves for special purposes such as offshore communications. Those things would not have been heard of in the recent past, and therein lies a very big headache for the Minister and his Department. Those things require careful planning over a long period.

I noticed with great satisfaction that the Minister advocated the dictum of festina lente, not to be in a great rush buying new equipment because the cost of this is colossal and, possibly, with further development in electronic engineering it could soon become dated. One thing he will ensure is that as far as humanly possible Irish manufactured equipment will be used. I have a suggestion to make: would it be possible in view of the huge amount of money involved that further industry could be promoted to develop and make parts not being made here already?

Kiosks, telephone lines and telex and so on remind me of the seanfhocal Trí rud a bhaineann le hól— é ól, é iompar agus díol as—and of course the sting is in the third one, "díol as". When is this money going to come back if it is ever going to come back? There is only one way to make sure that most of it will come back—to have the most efficient service possible. Some Senators already mentioned the fact that they would not make a telephone call from their own telephones because of interference and so on. That is most unsatisfactory, and all these things will have to be put right. If a service is not satisfactory it will fall.

In conclusion I want to refer to the calls where one has to dial for an operator. Ceann de na deacrachtaí a chasann ort go minic ná é seo: Má labhrann tú as Gaeilge leis an gcailín atá san oifig, de ghnáth is beag áird a tugtar ort. A lán díobh san atá ag obair ins na háiteanna sin, ins na malartáin, sílim gur daoine ar bheagán Gaeilge ar fad iad agus n'fheadar cé chuige a chuirfinn an gearán mar gheall ar an sceal. Tá a fhios agam go bhfuil an-shuim ag an Aire féin sa Ghaeilge. Ba cheart go mbeadh an oiread sin Gaeilge ar a gcumas siúd agus a chabhródh leo freagra a thabhairt as Gaeilge agus cabhrú leis an ndaoine a dteastaíonn uathu a saol a chaitheamh trí Ghaeilge. Sin pointe beag amháin, agus ní rachaidh mé thar sin.

Guím gach rath ar an Aire san obair atá roimhe agus, mar adúirt mé cheana, tá súil agam i gceann cúig bliana go mbeimid ar an mbóthar chuig an sprioc—córas teileachumarsáide a bheidh chomh maith agus is féidir é bheith san Stáit seo.

I should like to join in welcoming the Minister to his new office and on the occasion of his first visit to the Seanad and hope that his ideas for the telephone service as set out in the Bill will come to pass. It is something we would all like to see. I have intervened in the debate to make a rather net point. It has to do with the fact that we are debating this Bill which provides the machinery whereby the Minister can look to his colleague for a very large sum of money for investment in telecommunications at a time when telecommunications here and from countries abroad are seriously prejudiced by industrial unrest in the Department of Posts and Telegraphs.

It is on that subject I want to say a few words. The point was made earlier that there are certain essentials to foreign investment in this country. Export tax relief was quoted as one and stability in industrial relations was mentioned as another. That links in with the third, which Senator Cranitch has referred to, the importance of good telecommunications. Unfortunately, we cannot offer those two important fundamentals at the moment, sound consistent telecommunications, nor can we offer—it is no joy to say this—stability in industrial relations. I have personal knowledge of an industry which has to compete on the world markets. It is entirely an export industry. It must compete against giant competitors who are formed into a cartel. This small Irish industry was attracted here by the IDA and by their promises of a good labour market and the other attractions they hold out to foreign industrialists. It is now in the position of competing in this difficult market but it is literally being crippled for want of telecommunications. It cannot compete very often in price because the cartel can see to that and its competitiveness rests on the quality of its product and its general commercial efficiency. Underlying the ability to be commercially efficient it must be able to communicate speedily, accurately and whenever necessary. It is prevented from doing that now and has been for some time in the past by the running sore of the telex dispute.

Telex is not something which impinges on most of us. We just have our telephone and, as Senator Keating says, we are used to our telephones, but telex is now becoming more and more part and parcel of Irish industry and the Irish business scene generally. The experience I related in regard to this company is not unique because I read in the newspapers of spokesmen from other companies complaining of the plight in which they find themselves. I have heard a spokesman on behalf of the Confederation of Irish Industry and the representatives of employers making similar complaints. We can be satisfied that the malaise is widespread, deep and extremely serious. There is no point in State agencies, whether they be the Industrial Development Authority or Córas Tráchtála, attracting industry here or trying to sell the goods abroad if when those people come they find themselves in a position where they cannot communicate abroad. Unfortunately, that is the position we are in at the moment.

This is the position which has pertained for some months. It seems to me that the industrial relations situation within the Department of Posts and Telegraphs is in such a condition that a very fundamental look must be taken at it. I do not know what is the cause of the present dispute. Very few people know this. It is almost impossible to define the cause from what we read in the newspapers. It is probably only known to those who have been in the Department, on the management or trade union side, for a long time and have grown up with all the complexities which have contributed to this present industrial tangle. There is no point in trying to speculate on it because it defeats me, but what is clear at this stage is that the industrial problems seem to be so intractable—and apparently insoluble, because they have not been solved up to now. I do not know where the fault is, whether it is the management or whether Senator Cranitch put his finger on it when he talked about Telecommunications and Posts being in the one Department —the very new with the very old and traditional. I do not know whether there are old procedures there that are no longer able to cope with the stresses of modern industry. That may be it.

I imagine that the whole thing has become so interwoven in a complex mass of relationships, hierarchical structures and all that sort of thing, that the problem is possibly insoluble. Certainly no solution has been achieved up to now. We have been reading for some months past about conciliation and arbitration meetings and consultations but none of those procedures produced a result. The only result is peace. I know there are procedures in the Department for dealing with industrial disputes, conciliation, arbitration and all the rest of it and that traditionally the Minister has remained aloof from these matters. Likewise, the Minister for Labour's general stance in industrial disputes is to stand apart and let the established machinery deal with them. But when we have a case where the established machinery has been incapable of dealing with a dispute can the Minister any longer afford to stand apart when real harm is being done to viable Irish industries, when public investment in industries may be lost and when people may be out of jobs? When I speak of "people" in this context I mean friends and neighbours in my own town. I ask the Minister if he can stand aside any longer from this running sore of industrial disputes within his Department affecting the telecommunications of this country? I suggest to him that he cannot. What is needed now is a fundamental reappraisal of these relations. The existing machinery has failed and I appeal to him to make this fundamental assessment as a matter of the greatest urgency.

I welcome the Bill, particularly at a time when there is quite an amount of capital required for the development of our telephone system. Like the Minister, I, too, being from the west of Ireland am critical of the services we get in that area. It has always been the case—not alone in the field of posts and telegraphs but in the field of many development authorities—that if one is in a peripheral area that person is the last to get the services. The remote areas should get priority in regard to telephone communication. We are a small divided nation and the least we can expect is to have certain communications for those who live in remote areas. It is unconstitutional to charge additional installation costs to such people. Such costs should not debar those people from receiving the services.

People living in remote areas who require hospitalisation, medical attention, veterinary services and emergency services must wait in a queue, regardless of their occupation, for at least three years. That is disgraceful. I can see why the previous Minister was concerned about the production that might accrue from the expenditure of £350 million over the next five years. I can tell Senator O'Brien that after his period of office people are still in that queue in my area. There is a delay of at least three years from the time a person applies until a phone is installed.

It is important that the Minister takes into account the provision of services in what I regard as the peripheral areas. Where there is a high density of population, for example at beaches during the tourist season, the lifeguard should be in close proximity to a telephone kiosk or have immediate access to a phone so that ambulances, doctors, nurses and so on can be alerted. There should be some radio link between the fishing fleet in that area and the lifeguard on shore.

The island dwellers along our coasts have a system of communication that breaks down at least twice or three times a week, depending on the inclement weather in the area. There is no alternative communication for those people who are cut away from the mainland. The Minister should take into account the provision of some additional coverage for such people when their communication system breaks down on the mainland. Emergencies and problems arise on the islands also. It is only right that when they are cut away by miles of sea in inclement weather some type of communication in substitution for the one they have should be installed.

The Minister and some Senators mentioned that a telephone is a must in modern farming. I know plenty of farmers who are on the waiting list but who will be unable to get their phones installed until they get out of what is known as the carriage office in Dublin. That is some kind of net one gets into in Dublin when one makes an application. The engineering branch continually blame the carriage office. The technical operators in one's own county from time to time blame the county council or the local authority for way leaves but in the ultimate analysis it is at least three years before one has a phone, regardless of one's occupation. It is no wonder the previous Minister for Posts and Telegraphs is concerned about the production of money spent during his time because this still obtains.

The Minister should look into this problem. There may be dumping of equipment here which is obsolete in other countries. Because we are not able to manufacture modern, up-to-date equipment there is a danger that obsolete equipment may be installed. I ask the Minister to be aware of this and ensure that the equipment we install now will not be outdated next year or the year after. It has happened in our hospitals where X-ray units and other equipment were installed and became obsolete in a very short time. There is also the danger that if one puts any product out of the reach of the customer financially, the customer will tend to use that product less.

If one lives in a remote area one will get a three-minute telephone call for 50p—possibly with interruptions and being cut off—and one might end up with only one minute's conversation. If one does not give a service at a reasonable rate, it will be put beyond the reach of the ordinary consumer and will no longer bring in any capital or profit for the operator. It is not the answer to increase the charges. We had that with CIE. They continued to increase their charges until they discouraged people from using their transport. When they reduced their charges, even on a trial basis, people started again to use the passenger service. The same will apply to telephone charges if they are put beyond the reach of the people.

I welcome the Bill and hope it will give the Minister what he intends. I want to compliment him on bringing in this Bill with financial teeth. Unless you have a financial commitment in a Bill, it will not have teeth. This is the first requirement. The Minister has done this and I wish the Bill every success.

In the area of forecasting capacity I would have some doubts whether the Department as it stands at the moment has organised itself to produce an integrated plan for the development of the telephone service. It was with some surprise that I heard Senator Keating talking about the need for reorganisation and restructuring and I wondered what the Coalition had been doing during the last few years. I want the Minister to take note that we will be watching what he does. What has been done about the Devlin recommendations in relation to the reorganisation of the Post Office—I see that strange look in my colleagues' faces—pushing for the notion of the Aireacht? If anything I would say that we should throw out that notion.

What I am pushing for is reconciliation between the technical and administrative people in the Department. As one of those technical people it was my privilege in 1956 to climb the mountains of Ireland to select the television transmission sites. That was one of the things that was done in time for the television service when it came on screen. It was not such a happy situation when I worked in industry at Shannon. I found there was no automatic exchange there when it was needed to keep the new industrialists happy. It is important that the infrastructural development goes hand in hand with the development of industry. We spoke earlier today about the expansion of exports, the need for 15,000 new jobs and so on. The telephone service must keep pace with it.

In contrast the ESB have over a period managed to move their capacity forward at a rate which more or less has balanced with demand. It is essential that the telephone service do this also. If the organisation of the Post Office needs to be changed—for instance, if it needs to be set up as a public corporation, which the Minister might think about—then perhaps we will have to do that. We cannot have an inferior telephone service when we are an export country and must remain competitive.

I would not get too hung up about the amount of money involved because, when we take £350 million over the five-year period and deduct £120 million for depreciation, we are talking about a funding of £46 million a year. Maybe that is not enough. I am not fully confident that the planning and forecasting services are fully worked out within the Department. If they were pressure would have been exerted to provide funds, as was done in the past for the expansion of the electricity capacity.

I welcome the introduction of this measure. It has been said that this Bill had no teeth because all it does is lay out the guidelines which might or might not be followed when capital becomes available from the Department of Finance. The Government have the will to provide the money for this Bill. An indication of this is that it has been introduced to the House very early in this session. I have no doubt the Minister will have the political clout necessary to get the finance which will be needed over the next number of years. As has been mentioned by Senator Mulcahy, there is a possibility that the finance mentioned in this Bill may not be enough to help us through what we hope will be a very successful period during the next five years.

The Bill gives us an idea of the complexity of modern communication. When somebody comes to us looking for a telephone it is a relatively easy matter for him to say that a telephone only costs X number of pounds, but when you get into the finance needed to provide the back-up service for that one phone you realise the trouble you are in. Mention has been made of the peripheral areas and the need for phones for those areas. There can be as many community care problems in the centre of the city as in the wilds of the country. In a big built-up area where there are very few private phones and no public service buildings, such as hotels or pubs, one realises the urgent need for telephone kiosks. Kiosks are as essential in that area as on the top of a mountain.

Mention has been made of provision of a suitable type of kiosk. The kiosk at present used by the Department is an invitation to a vandal. Where can he get at ready cash more easily than in a telephone kiosk? All he has to do is break the simplest lock and he has enough ready cash to tide him over until the next day when he can break into another. There are problems in this area. Some of these problems might be created by the fact that some of these kiosks are not always checked by the Department officials in time. They get overloaded and are an invitation to the vandal. It does not seem an impossibility to design a telephone kiosk in which the money box might be under the ground or hidden in some way so that vandals cannot get at it.

There is concern about local authority funding of telephone kiosks. In many remote areas there is no possibility of adequate funds being generated to make that particular box pay, but the need for the phone is nevertheless there. Because of that need I feel there should be a community care aspect in the provision of telephone kiosks. Community care is essential in all areas. A person living beside a hotel or remote from a hotel should be able to get the srevices he requires whether it be doctor, dentist, priest or whatever.

The scheme which has been devised whereby the local authority will fund kiosks in certain areas should be looked into in greater detail. We have found that there is a possibility that in one year a telephone kiosk might produce revenue over and above that guaranteed. In the next year it will not have the revenue needed, so a subsidy will have to be given. No cognisance is being given to the fact that the year before a profit was made. If we are going to stick with that system it should be over a five-year period and the accounting period should be at the end of those five years.

Our communications system is of vital importance not alone to our tourist industry and industrial prospects but to normal living in a complex world. In a rural area where there is a small industry the telephone is the only link with suppliers in many cases. It is all right if one lives in a built-up area where within five minutes one can get to one's source of supply, but in a country area when one is depending on somebody to send something by train or by other fast means very often one cannot get it, and this is hindering the progress of business. I am sure that the amount of money involved will be forthcoming from the Government.

I sincerely hope the House will support this Bill, which is necessary if we are to progress as a nation because communications is our life blood.

There is no question about the House giving support to the Bill. This Bill was ordered to be printed in May, 1977. On that occasion not alone did we get the support of the Opposition but, generally speaking, the tone of the debate was consistent with the tone of today's debate. It is possible to get the money and to spend it, but we must realise that if we are not vigilant there is the possibility that the pressure will not be kept up for the money to be delivered. Over the period of the last Government more money was spent on the telephone system than had been spent in the 70 years of the State's existence. Senator O'Brien made that point in a different kind of way. I do not expect to follow him; I can only say it in my own way. The fact is the money was there to bring in 136,000 new subscribers. That happened and it can be done again.

We have to say to the Minister what Senator O'Brien said: "We are with you all the way. We believe in this. We know it is a good idea. We know the nation needs it. We know there have been great developments. We want to see those developments continuing". We want an understanding that the same sort of direction will be followed in respect of this Bill and that the money will be spent as it was over the past four years. That is the only point at issue. Every Senator is behind this Bill and knows the value of it. There is no point making a political speech about this. The only issue is: will the money continue to flow into this service as it has over the past four years and will it be consistent with the rate spent over the past four years?

We welcome the Bill and want to see it passed fairly quickly.

I should like to wish the Minister success in the programme he has laid down because it will be most important to the community that he has that success. I would ask him to give definite consideration to the priorities in which he carries out the programme, priorities which are related to the needs of the present community. He may decide, for instance, that the commercial community for the sake of jobs requires first priority, that it is labour intensive and he wants to give employment on the actual installation of telephones. But there is one area to which I would ask him to give first priority, and that is to the existing installation. The existing installation is causing frustration and loss of trade. Even on the existing installation one can dial numbers and keep getting the wrong ones. When one cannot get a number one can dial the exchange and wait half an hour to get a reply. This is particularly so in the evening and at night. As to whether there is sufficient manning of the exchanges I do not know. Therefore I stress that the Minister should have a good look at the existing installation and the maintenance of it.

As we are all aware, the present industrial dispute is having an effect on the service. I do not want to speak on the merits or demerits of the dispute, just the results, especially in the Cork area where we have had the main problem. Industry is being affected and orders are being lost. There are other spheres. For instance, there is a home for old people with which I am connected. There are 100 old people, mainly bed-ridden, there and that home does not even have a telephone. If a fire started during the night how would they get the fire brigade? Therefore I stress the first priority should be the present installation. I would ask the Minister to consider putting as many cables as possible underground in new installations to retain the amenity of our country.

Ba mhaith liom ar dtús báire comhgháirdeachas a dhéanamh leis an Seanadóir Ó Dóláin tar éis dó bheith tófa mar Chathaoirleach agus leis an Seanadóir Mac Artáin a toghadh mar Leas-Chathaoirleach. Ba mhaith liom fosta buíochas a ghabháil le gach duine a rinneadh comhgháirdeachas liom féin ar mo chéad chuairt anseo mar Aire Poist and Telegrafa. Gabhaim buíochas leis na daoine uilig a labhair ar an mBille seo agus tá sé so-thuighthe go dtuigeann sibh cheomh tabhachtacht agus atá sé go mbeadh córas cumarsáide againn atá comh maith agus a thig linn é a bheith agus más féidir é a bheith chomh maith leis an gcóras in aon tír eile de chuid an CIE. Tá sé tuigmheáil go dtógfaidh sé tamaill sula mbéimid ábalta sin a dhéanamh ach tá mé den bharúil go n-éireóidh linn teacht cóngarach go leor dóibh tar éis an tréimhse atá leagtha síos don airgead seo.

I do not think it is necessry for me to repeat what I said in Irish, but in case it is I should like very briefly to thank the Senators who congratulated me on my appointment as Minister for Posts and Telegraphs. I appreciate their good wishes.

I would like to take this opportunity of thanking all the Senators who contributed to this wide-ranging debate. It has been stressed that it is of paramount importance that the telephone service should be improved and developed as rapidly as possible. The general support for the Bill in this House, as well as in the other House, is indicative of the general consensus on this point. I accept that some impatience was expressed in relation to deficiencies that still exist, but there was a general recognition in the speeches made here that there is no easy short-cut to the achievement of a modern efficient telecommunication system. I should like to assure the House that there is no lack of a sense of urgency in my Department about the need to improve the service. Intensive efforts have been made to achieve higher standards. This Bill can be taken as an earnest of the Government's intention to ensure that we will have a telephone service that is as good as the best to be found elsewhere in the shortest possible time.

I would comment briefly on some of the points made by the various speakers. Senator McCartin spoke mainly about the priority situation. At present about 45 per cent of applications are in priority categories. It will be appreciated that if we were to add many more categories to the present priority categories we would totally erode the value of the priority rating. While farmers are not in a priority category, nevertheless where a farmer provides a fair amount of employment he does qualify for priority treatment. I doubt if it is necessary for me to read out a list of the priority categories but it will be appreciated from the figure I have given—45 per cent—that if we add many other categories to the priority list it would mean little or nothing.

I fully agree with Senator Conroy when he said that an effective telecommunication service is vital to economic development. I have stressed this on many occasions since I became Minister. It is generally accepted, when we look at the very high rate of development in the other countries of the Common Market, that we have a considerable way to go and that it is essential that we should travel this road as rapidly as possible so as to ensure that we will eventually and in the quickest possible time reach the same stage of development as other EEC countries.

Senator Cruise-O'Brien, Senator Keating and other Senators pointed out that the Bill is an enabling one and that there was no assurance that the full £350 million would be provided as planned year by year or within any particular period of years. This is of course the legal position. It is designed to ensure that the Government and the Minister for Finance, indeed the Oireachtas, have control of the allocation of capital resources from year to year. However, Senator Cruise-O'Brien, having been Minister, will agree with me that the reality is that the telephone service cannot be extended on any worth-while scale without entering into considerable long-term contracts, and increasing staff and other resources. The scale of long-term contracts and the other commitments is determined by the size of the programme drawn up in connection with each Telephone Capital Bill. Indeed, the size of the programme covered by the 1973 Act was determined by what had been done and planned beforehand. Most of the schemes carried out in the 1973-77 period—including, for instance, the major Crown Alley scheme which was completed last year—were initiated a considerable time before 1973.

I am not making a political point of this anymore than Senator Cruise-O'Brien did. In my opening speech I gave the factual situation. I am simply saying that if we had to argue on a political basis, I would have to say that the planning was done prior to 1973 —which it must necessarly have been —for the programme carried out since then. Then of course Senator Cruise-O'Brien could say to me that the planning has already been done in his time for the next programme. It is not a political point; it is simply pointing out the actual situation. I can give every assurance that the Government are as committed as it is possible to be to ensure that the major development on the proposed scale is achieved.

Senator Brugha mentioned the European Investment Bank loan. These loans are made to the Minister for Finance and are, as the Senator said, related to the level of national investment in the telephone service. It is expected that the level of the loans will not be less in the future than they were in the past.

The Senator also referred to the satellite earth station. This satellite earth station will be located in this country but it will operate through a space satellite which will be shared with other countries, mostly in Europe. I should perhaps add that the Department owns a share in an earth station in Goonhilly, Cornwall, and many of our international trunk circuits are routed through communication satellites

Senator Keating also referred to the need to improve the quality of the telephone service. I certainly would agree with him there. It will be one of our objectives in the period to which this money refers to endeavour to improve it. Senator Cranitch, Senator Mulcahy and Senator Keating asked if the civil service was a suitable organisation for the task of development.

First of all, I suppose I should say that it is important that the organisation of the body responsible for the telephone service should be reviewed at intervals to ensure that it is the most appropriate for the task. The Government have already indicated publicly their recognition of the importance of organisation as an aid to efficient management. They have announced that they are committed to the reorganisation of the public service and that they regard it as an urgent matter.

Any reorganisation of the Department of Posts and Telegraphs, including the telephone service, will be considered in the context of the reorganisation of the service as a whole. I doubt if it is possible for me to be more precise at the moment except perhaps to refer to the Public Services Organisation Review Group mentioned by Senator Mulcahy. In their report in 1969, the Group did not recommend that the Department of Posts and Telegraphs should be set up as an autonomous State-sponsored body like the ESB, although they did not rule this out for the future. I should like to point out that I am not excluding it from consideration as a possibility on some future date, but a move of this kind is not envisaged at present. There are many problems and difficulties involved in this and I feel that at the moment it is essential that we should concentrate all the energies we have in resolving the particular problems and difficulties which now face us without entering into new commitments of this kind immediately.

Senator Cooney referred to the industrial unrest. I regret that the industrial action should be continuing and that subscribers should have been deprived of both telephone and telex service for periods during the past few months. I have assured the union executive and the staff concerned that if they called off their industrial action and returned to the use of the agreed negotiation machinery, their problems would be dealt with speedily and sympathetically. I want to repeat that—speedily and sympathetically. I would add that the Department are most anxious to enter into a productivity agreement with the engineering staff and are satisfied that there is scope for a substantial increase in output which would bring about benefits to the staff and to the users of the service. An unfortunate result of the industrial action taking place is that negotiations on a productivity agreement are in abeyance while industrial action continues. I feel it is very much in the interests of the staff that all industrial action should be brought to an end immediately and I would again appeal to the staff to end it.

I would like to say to Senator Cooney that I propose to meet the Irish Congress of Trade Unions tomorrow on this matter.

It is good to hear that.

Senator O'Toole mentioned the problems of telecommunications in the West of Ireland, and I think Senator McCartin also mentioned them. I would accept that because there are so many manual exchanges there are problems, but he will see in my opening speech I referred to the fact that we propose to change over to automatic as quickly as we can and this will probably be of considerable assistance.

Senator Lanigan referred to vandalism in relation to telephone kiosks. I would like to say that we have in recent times taken steps to make these kiosks less susceptible to vandalism by fitting steel plates to which the kiosk boxes are bolted and so on. I regret very much there is so much vandalism in relation to these kiosks. I have already mentioned in the Dáil, and I repeat it here, that the cost of repairing damaged kiosks in Dublin in 1975 was about £84,000 and so far as I am aware this year the cost is running at about the same level. It is a serious matter and I feel public opinion might usefully be brought to bear on this particular matter.

Senator Harte and Senator Jago, mentioned priorities and the need to give priority to servicing existing installations. We are doing our utmost to improve the service.

Finally, I want to say that I have tried as best I could to deal with the main points made during the debate. It is possible that I may have missed some of them. The comments were numerous and so varied that it was difficult to cover them all. If any Senator considers that I did not reply to a point made or if he would like more information than I have already given in my reply, if he would let me know I would be very glad to write to him on the matter. I would like to express m thanks to all the Senators who contributed to the debate on this very important Bill. I can assure them that the comments and the criticisms they have made will be closely studied by my Department and action will be taken where appropriate.

Question put and agreed to.
Agreed to take remaining Stages today.
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