Garda Síochána Bill, 1977: Second Stage

Question proposed: "That the Bill be now read a Second Time."

Minister for Justice (Mr. G. Collins)

The primary purpose of this Bill is to amend the Garda Síochána Acts so as to enable effect to be given to an agreement that was reached during the term of office of the previous Government regarding changes in the status and functions of the Garda representative bodies. The agreement was concluded with the representative body for inspectors, station sergeants and sergeants and the representative body for guards following negotiations with the Department of Justice, Discussions have also taken place with the representative bodies for chief superintendents and superintendents and it is expected that agreement will soon be reached with them as well.

The statutory provisions that require to be amended are contained in section 13 of the Garda Síochána Act, 1924. This section provides for the establishment in accordance with ministerial regulations of representative bodies elected by the members of the various ranks to enable them to consider and bring to the notice of the Commissioner and of the Minister for Justice matters affecting their welfare and efficiency, other than questions of discipline and promotion affecting individuals. The section prohibits the bodies from associating with any body or person outside the force. Under the existing regulations the affairs of the bodies, including such matters as the conduct of elections and the dates, frequency and duration of meetings, are closely regulated by the Garda authorities. All members may vote, or be nominated for office, irrespective of whether they are subscribers to representative body funds.

These arrangements are no longer acceptable to members of the force and, in the course of the negotiations that took place during the past year the bodies pressed strongly to have the various restrictions imposed on them by the 1924 Act abolished. Initially they sought full trade union status, with the right to strike, which is prohibited by section 14 of the Act. My predecessor made it clear to them, however, that he could not agree to concede trade union status or the right to strike, as he considered that concession of these matters would be incompatible with the functions and responsibilities of members of the force. He did agree, however, that the existing controls should be relaxed so that the bodies will be able to reconstitute themselves into the equivalent of an independent staff association with freedom to draw up their own constitution, conduct their own elections and generally manage their own affairs.

Some of the desired changes can be provided for in new regulations but it is necessary also to effect certain amendments in section 13 of the 1924 Act. Firstly, an amendment is necessary to enable the new bodies to represent their members generally in all matters affecting their welfare and efficiency and not just to bring such matters to the notice of the Commissioner and the Minister for Justice. Secondly, the prohibition on the making of representations on behalf of individual members in matters of discipline and promotion needs to be repealed. Thirdly, the wording of the section needs to be amended so as to enable participation in the election of representative bodies to be confined to those who pay their subscriptions to body funds. It has been agreed with the bodies however that in the first elections to take place under the new arrangements every member will be entitled to vote.

The amended section will modify the present prohibition on representative bodies associating with bodies or persons outside the force. The Minister for Justice will in future have power to authorise the bodies to associate with outside persons and associations subject to such conditions and restrictions as he may specify. Agreement has been reached with the bodies as to the kinds of outside organisations with whom they may expect to be allowed to associate. It has been agreed, for example, that it would be appropriate to allow the bodies to liaise with international associations of police organisations whose function is to exchange information on matters of common interest. The bodies may also wish to employ outside consultants to assist and advise them on the preparation of claims and other matters.

Lastly, the term "association" is being substituted for "representative body" as the present bodies wish to get away from the old terminology to help to improve their status and image.

The text of section 13 of the 1924 Act is being re-enacted in full with the various amendments incorporated in it. The substantive amendments are confined to subsection (1) and subsection (5), which is a new subsection. Subsections (2) and (3) each show one minor textual amendment and subsection (4) is unchanged.

Section 2 of the Bill proposes a change in the procedure governing Garda pensions orders. What is proposed is the adoption of the procedure that has already been sanctioned by the Oireachtas in relation to pension schemes elsewhere in the public service including the Army. At present before a Garda pensions order can come into operation it must be confirmed by resolution of both Houses. The new procedure would enable the order to come into operation immediately it is made. The order would, however, be laid before each House and could be annulled by resolution of either House within 21 sitting days. I am sure the House will agree that the simpler procedure at present applying to other public service pensions orders should also apply to the Garda orders.

As far as the main purpose of the Bill is concerned, namely, the introduction of changes in the status and role of the representative bodies, it is right that I should acknowledge the part played by my predecessor in bringing about the agreement which was negotiated on the subject with the bodies. That agreement is one to which I and my colleagues in the Government have been happy to subscribe, as we believe that it correctly reflects the needs of the situation as is exists in the seventies as compared with half a century ago. We all recognise, I think, that it is essential to the well-being of the community that we should have a contented, strong and efficient police force. I have every hope that, by facilitating the functioning of good personnel relations within the Garda Síochána, the new charter which is being written for the representative bodies will contribute to that objective.

Mr. Cooney

Firstly, I should like to welcome the Minister on his first official visit to the Seanad in his new role as Minister for Justice. I have already congratulated him privately on his appointment and I am glad to have the opportunity of doing so now publicly. I wish him well in what I know is a difficult office. I will not wish him a term free from headaches because that would be to wish the impossible to any Minister but especially to a Minister for Justice. I do however, wish that his headaches will be few and mild.

I note, too, in a passing comment relevant to the Minister's assumption of his office, that he has suffered a fate that has befallen all of his predecessors. I am sure Deputy O'Malley will share the view with me that it was my hope that the Minister would come safe, but it is not to be. I refer to the fact that the Minister, like those who went before him, has become "the prisoner of the Department of Justice", that "he is a malleable thing in the hands of those grim and Machiavellian men who head that Department". I say this as a fact. I know it to be a fact because "I read it in the paper".

This Bill deals with a very net point, the amending of the parent Act to provide for changes in the structure of the representative bodies. I understand that, as a matter of procedure, our contributions on the Bill will have to be related to what is in it and to matters that would be very much tied to it. We are all aware that the subject of the Garda Síochána is attracting more than a little interest at the moment because of allegations that have been made and the whole controversy in that area. A debate which deals with Garda Síochána and does not touch on that area will, I suppose, seem somewhat unreal to those outside. It is not that there is any lack of concern I am certain on the part of Members of this House with regard to that matter. I would have some things to say on it but it is as well to put it on record that the rules of procedure, and the Cathaoirleach can guide me on this, would put anything said in that regard out of order and we must confine ourselves to the changes made in the 1924 Act, as set out in the amending Bill, and to matters that would be very closely relevant thereto into terms of personnel policy. I would be glad for the guidance of the Cathaoirleach on that.

An Cathaoirleach

This Bill has a limited scope and we would be well advised to keep to the provisions of the Bill.

Mr. Cooney

I accept the Chair's ruling that I cannot speak on these matters. I accept it with some disappointment and some fear that lack of reference to these matters in this House during this debate might be misinterpreted outside as lack of interest or care about them. Rules of Order are there to be observed and I assure the Chair that I accept the ruling and will endeavour to abide by it both in the letter and in the spirit.

I welcome this Bill because it puts statutory clothing on an agreement reached when I was Minister, as this Minister has generously acknowledged. I should like to pay tribute to all who were involved in those negotiations, the representative bodies for gardaí, sergeants and station sergeants and inspectors who, of course, are the main bodies involved on the Garda side. Originally one of those bodies, the representative body of the gardaí, as far as I recall, made a suggestion that the time had come for us to permit a trade union in the Garda and that the right to strike should be looked at. We debated that matter amicably and they agreed with me that such structures within a police force would not be appropriate. They accepted that willingly. In such acceptance they were, in fact, reflecting what I am satisfied is a widely held view in the force: the vast majority of members see striking or membership of a trade union in the traditional sense as being incompatible with their job.

I should like, too, to pay tribute to the officers of the Department who conducted these negotiations on behalf of the Government, to pay tribute to their patience and skill in reconciling what at times seemed to be immovable objects and irresistible forces. There is a myth in the media that there is a state of constant suspicion and hostility, if not downright war, between the Department of Justice and the representative bodies of the Garda Síochána. I should like to put it on record that this is not so. It seemed clear to me as an observer close to the scene and seeing both sides separately and informally very often, that this is definitely not so and that the relationship personally and corporately was friendly.

It was evident to me that there was mutual trust and respect and trust by each side in the bona fides of the other and respect on each side for the negotiating prowess of the other. It is important that that be put on the record so that there will be no misunderstanding about it. Difficult negotitions were conducted skilfully and with patience and they were successful. We have to remember that this Bill represents agreed changes and that that agreement could not have come without the co-operation and assistance of the Commissioner and the headquarters staff of the Garda.

It is important also to put on record that that co-operation was willingly forthcoming. All the parties involved in these negotiations were motivated by one thing only: to devise a regime that would be broadly acceptable and generally good for the well-being and morale of the force. The Bill does not reflect, because it does not have to, the full extent of the changes agreed. The Minister touched on the questions of discipline, transfers and promotion needs. These are, obviously, very thorny matters in a large organisation but they are brought to particular difficulty when the organisation in question is one which is subject to formal discipline and the members of it have to serve right throughout the country in every corner. It is an organisation which has an informal hierarchical structure and obviously questions of discipline, transfers and promotions are matters that could lead to difficulty and misunderstandings. I was pleased that the changes which are being brought about will provide for structures in which many of these misunderstandings can be removed and in which there will be confidence and satisfaction with the procedures in all of these areas, that all the members will be satisfied that the procedures are equitable, even-handed, unbiased and totally fair. I found also that there was a fund of goodwill towards the changes and a desire to make them work. I noticed—this was very striking to me in my relationships with various members of the force from the highest to the newest recruit—that there was a great loyalty to their force and a great wish to see it as a successful one and to see that it would be a contented force. These changes will go a long way towards achieving that. Other changes are necessary.

During my time I commissioned a survey by a firm of management consultants of the Garda force. The force as we have it today is structured as it was founded in the twenties and there have been no substantial changes since; but the society which it serves is vastly different from the society of the twenties. I thought it time to look at the force from a quasi scientific point of view and to see if its structures are suitable for today and if unsuitable, or even partly suitable, how they might be changed and to recommend changes. I also wanted to look at the personnel problems of the force. That work has been completed and the reports were available a matter of days before I left. I did not have more than a passing interest in them at that stage. I imagine that by now my successor has had the benefit of departmental analysis of the reports and the benefit of his own readings of them. I would be interested to hear him, when he is replying, give some indication of action that may be coming on foot of these reports, his views generally on what has been recommended and whether he accepts the recommendations or whether he thinks they go far enough, do not go far enough, his general state of satisfaction, or otherwise, with the analysis done by the management consultants. I should say that there was no clash between these changes and what the consultants were briefed to do. These changes are quite net and quite narrow, affecting the statutory position of the representative bodies. I have no doubt that the management consultants having regard to the wide terms of reference and the detailed survey they conducted will be reporting on matters very fundarnental to the structure and organisation of our police force.

Allied with that I would be glad to hear from the Minister what his views would be on the question of the setting up of a police authority. I indicated on many occasions that I was generally in favour of that idea. I have been accused by a newspaper of having abandoned the idea. On many occasions I made it clear that I had not abandoned but that it would be pointless proceeding with something as fundamental as a police authority in advance of the findings of the management consultants. Now that those findings are to hand I would be interested to hear from the Minister if he considers that the idea of a police authority is still relevant to the Garda Síochána scene and if it would be compatible with the findings of the survey team and what his personal views are on it. I will not ask him at this stage to give any indication of how he thinks it might be constructed and its powers and role. That would be a matter for a separate debate and something on which he would want more notice.

This Bill is to legislate for changes which have been agreed with the representative bodies and which will go to effect the sense of well-being in the forces. It is an updating, in a small but significant way, of the personnel policies being practised in the force. To have proper structures and a proper legal framework is important so that the parties involved will know the limits of their rights to negotiate and act on behalf of their members. It is important for the welfare of the force that these things are settled. I am glad that there is no agitation here, as there is in an adjoining jurisdiction, on the question of pay. Our police force is well paid and it is well equipped. The numbers are being increased substantially. They were increased over 1,000 during my term of office and the Government of which I was a member had sanctioned an increase by a further 1,000.

There was dissatisfaction from time to time with the amount of overtime available for police to provide extra services. In this year the figure provided in the Estimate was £5 million and a further £450,000 was made available for overtime. I know the Minister, when in Opposition, was concerned that overtime was not being paid sufficiently generously and that as a result there was lack of police presence. I would be glad to hear from him at this stage, the second last month of the year, the level he thinks overtime will run at for this year and if it will be much in excess of £5,450,000.

I hope that the new members coming into the force will obviate the need for a considerable amount of overtime. We should know by this time next year how they will affect the position. It certainly would be a happy day for the force if they could be relieved of the burden of having to work long hours of overtime. Secondly, overtime inevitably brings dissatisfaction to a force as large as this by reason of the fact that some members are in a position, bona fide, to earn more money than colleagues on the same grade. It would be a good day for the Garda Síochána if overtime as such could be abolished. We will not know until, possibly, this time next year when most of the extra 1,000 men are serving, how the extra numbers are coping with the increasing demands on police time.

Unfortunately, it does seem from the crime statistics that the crime problem will not get smaller. It may well be that the increase in the number of men will only keep pace with the increase in the number of problems they have to deal with and the need for overtime may continue. That is in the future, but to give us an indication of what the situation is likely to be in the future I should be glad if the Minister would give some idea of what he expects the out-turn to be this year.

I note that it is proposed to change the title of the representative body and to use the word "association". I suppose this is the age of the euphemism and there cannot be any objection to that but an association will still represent its members and a representative body was an association of gardaí which had come together for that purpose. If it has the effect of improving the personnel position within the force and of making it easier for the members to liaise with outside bodies, then that is a perfectly acceptable change.

The role of a representative body in a force that is disciplined and hierarchical in structure is, of course, a difficult and delicate one, particularly when it has the statutory duty and obligation to represent their numbers in all matters affecting their welfare and efficiency. Now it is being given a role in matters concerning promotion, trasfers and discipline. This will obviously place a serious but delicate burden on the members of the representative body. They are essentially an association representing particular grades. They do not have any function in the organisation and management and determination of the role of the police force. Nevertheless, in discharging the statutory functions it obviously must have concern in these areas. How that concern is expressed and how the expression of that concern is received are obviously areas that could be potentially abrasive.

I am satisfied that, with the changes made here, we will see in the future a very harmonious relationship. I am not suggesting that in the past it was anything other, but I am saying that in the future we will see a consistently harmonious relationship in which the representative bodies will be conscious that their prime function as an association representing particular grades in the job is to see that their well-being and efficiency are looked after. Their prime function is not to tell the Government or the persons charged by statute with running the Garda Síochána how the Garda should be run or what the role of the Garda should be. Certainly they will have an input like any other citizen in matters of major public importance. I merely mention these points to show the difficulties that are present in practical terms for a representative body discharging its functions.

I have no doubt that the officers of the representative bodies are sensitive to these situations and to the delicacy and the responsibility of their position. They are sensitive to the important role they can play in engendering a mood of satisfaction and contentment among the members of the force. That, in turn, will bring with it a certain heightened sense of morale which is basic to a high level of performance. I am satisfied that they are aware of the importance of their role in that regard. I am equally satisfied that with the changes that must inevitably come from the management consultants report and the changes forced on any police force in an evolving society, we will continue to be well served by our Garda Síochána.

As I indicated in my opening remarks, a Chathaoirleach, it does seem rather odd that in discussing the Garda Síochána we cannot touch on matters which are of current controversy. I accept your ruling on it. I think it is common case that this nation has been well served by the members of the Garda Síochána. In so far as this Bill goes to improve their lot, it is welcome and I hope it will be successful in its operation.

Ruairí Brugha

I, too, would like to welcome the Minister for Justice on his first visit to this House, wish him well in his office and hope that he will have as peaceful a term as he can possibly have.

This Bill is one of these unusual ones which we are experiencing in this House since we began this session. It is the result, in a sense, of agreement between both administrations because it was in draft by the previous administration and is being put through by the Minister on behalf of the new Government. Therefore it represents a consensus of view in the matter of improve the relationships in the Garda Síochána. It is satisfactory to note that the agreement is one that has resulted from discussions, not alone with the representatives of inspectors and other higher ranks in the Garda Síochána but also with the gardaí themselves. I do not think it is necessary to say very much about it. It is quite obvious that it is much more intelligent and sensible to create better working relationships than to wait until conditions have reached a point where one would have to create them.

It is also hardly necessary to say that the original conditions laid down when the State was being founded, described under section 13 by the Minister, related to the right to bring matters other than discipline and promotion to the attention of the Commissioner or the Minister or both. It must be fairly obvious to everybody that in a strong force matters such as abrupt transfers could easily lead to a worsening of relationships. Where disciplining of that kind is necessary it could be more easily dealt with by having some method of communication so that grievances, if they do build up, can be communicated upwards and a better atmosphere brought about.

Although the Bill itself confines what we may say about the Garda, it is the sort of measure which everybody throughout the country will welcome. There is no doubt about it, any discontent, disquiet or unease in the Garda force is a matter for serious concern. We are all aware of the increasing level of violence that has been taking place in recent years. Indeed many of us are conscious that the whole question of law and order and the maintenance of proper order is beginning, in some degree, to come into question.

From that point of view many people will welcome the institution of a practical measure, such as has been described by the Minister, to provide a freer association for gardaí, a method of consulting and bringing to the notice of those responsible any grievances that may arise. Thereby it removes the danger of a build-up of resentment which very often can be the result of something totally unintentional. The old system whereby a person did as he was told or else, as in the first Great War, is not always the best system. I, of course, would say that there must always be discipline in an organisation but there must also be understanding. Perhaps in the future industrial or personnel relationships in this area may arrive at the position where agreement would come between the authority and the personnel on the forms of punishment that might be given out for breaches of any regulations.

I do not think it is necessary to deal at any length with this measure. I should like to commend the Minister and his predecessor on the work done by them, the representatives of the gardaí and the representatives of the Department. I would hope that, as the Minister said, this sort of measure would bring a contented, strong and more efficient garda force into existence.

Mrs. Robinson

I would like to join with the other Senators in welcoming the Minister into the House and in wishing him well in his office. The particular Ministry which he has can be a difficult and burdensome one. But it is also one with, perhaps, the greatest potential for achieving social change in Ireland and also of responding to the rapid social change that there has been. I hope the Minister will take every opportunity of bringing in necessary legislation particularly in the area of family law reform which could have him remembered as a significant Minister for Justice.

We, in the Labour Party, welcome this Bill as a limited measure which is the result of protracted discussions and negotiations between the representative bodies and the Department of Justice. We are conscious of the fact that any discussion of the role of the Garda Síochána must be based on an awareness of two essential prerequisites: firstly, that the police force of the State must be united, well disciplined and have reasonably high morale; secondly that there must be good relations between the police force and the citizens whom it protects and in whose name it acts when enforcing the criminal law. These are essential basic prerequisites to our democratic system.

One must preface a contribution on this Bill by saying that with regard to both of these essential prerequisites there has been considerable doubt and concern in the past few years. There has been concern about whether the Garda have had good morale; about the adequacy in their working conditions; about the responsiveness of the authorities to the needs of the ordinary garda in his work and about personnel relations within the Garda Síochána. Secondly, there has been widespread public concern about the relations between the gardaí and the public arising from the allegations of brutality by certain members of the Garda.

An Cathaoirleach

References to brutality do not arise on this. This Bill is concerned solely with changes in the structure.

Mrs. Robinson

I appreciate that. I am just making the point that in examining a Bill relating to the Garda Síochána there are really two different aspects of their role which could be considered: one relates to the internal discipline, the morale and the working conditions of the Garda; the other very important dimension—which, as you say, is not within the terms of reference of this debate—concerns the relationship between the Garda and members of the public and the responsibility of the Government to ensure that steps are taken to reinforce that relationship and to create structures which guarantee a way of resolving doubts or conflicts and of examining serious complaints which are made.

I should like to turn to the question of the possibility of freedom of association being extended to members of the Garda, the right to join a trade union, the right to be affiliated to Congress. This was one of the earlier matters of negotiation which the representative body sought. I should like to see fuller discussion about the basic principles involved. I would like to hear the Minister elaborate more fully on why the Garda are not to be afforded full status and full freedom of association. It might be said that it could create very serious difficulties if you give the right to strike to members of the Garda, but there is an equal possibility of very real difficulties if the internal morale, discipline and responsiveness within the Garda reaches such a low level that there are persistent rumours of the possibility of a go-slow, a work-to-rule or the taking of a sick day off at a particular time. If, in other words, there is an inadequacy of negotiating machinery, an inadequacy of responsiveness within the Garda force, this can lead to a kind of malaise because of the failure to have a proper forum in which to resolve these problems. It would be preferable to allow full freedom of association, full trade union status, full possibility of bargaining for terms of conditions and work. This does not mean that a body like the Garda Síochána would use that power irresponsibly and seek to disrupt the community by calling for a strike at the drop of a hat.

It is worse to have inner tensions which can only be vented by underground action and resentment, and by the threat of either a go-slow or the taking of a period of sick leave by the gardaí themselves to register protest if they feel that their conditions have deteriorated or that there is no adequate response to their legitimate claims in the matter. So, I would welcome further discussion by the Minister in his reply on this particular point, and I would welcome the possibility of his considering it at a later stage and bringing in further legislation on the matter.

I would join with Senator Cooney in asking the Minister to reveal to the House his thinking on the question of establishing a police authority. Indeed I would go further and ask that the report and findings of the management consultancy firm be made public. This is an important matter of public interest. I think that when a report of this sort is commissioned it should be open for public perusal and public discussion, and I await the response of the Minister on that point.

Apart from the question of a police authority and the publication of the findings of the management consultancy survey, I would also welcome a statement by the Minister as to whether he intends to establish a permanent complaints body to examine complaints made by citizens against individual gardaí in particular instances? Again I appreciate that, strictly speaking, this question is outside the terms of the Bill before us, but it is the first opportunity we have had of questioning the Minister in the House on a Bill relating to the conditions of the Garda Síochána so I would welcome a statement from him as to his intention on this matter as well.

An Cathaoirleach

It is outside the scope of the Bill.

Mrs. Robinson

I appreciate that. But, as I say, it is the first opportunity that we have had and I am refraining from straying further in the hope that the Minister will respond to the question. I would also welcome some clarification from the Minister as to the general recruitment policy into the Garda Síochána. There has been immense evolution in the whole scale of activity by operations on the criminal side in the use of technology by criminals, the sophisticated methods that are employed. This demands a much more sophisticated response from the Garda themselves both at a training level and at a technological level. I have noted that in other countries—particularly the United States but also in many other countries— there is a conscious attempt to recruit expertise into the police force; to establish a specialist research centre, to establish a sophisticated capability by the Garda. I would welcome the Minister's views on recruitment and training of the Garda Síochána. Apart from those particular questions on which I have asked for information, I welcome the Bill itself as a relatively limited measure but one which should improve the working conditions of ordinarly members of the Garda Síochána. For that reason it will be welcomed by the Labour group.

Professor Murphy

May I first of all offer my congratulations to you, Sir, and to the Leas-Chathaoirleach on your appointments and to the Minister on taking up his heavy burden, and may I express my hope that his optimism and bonhomie will rub off a little on that grim Department? May I also express briefly my hope that this assembly will continue to realise its potential as a deliberative assembly? If from time to time through no fault of our own we on this side of the House stumble on articulateness and eloquence, we hope we will be forgiven by the Senator from the other side who on the first day expressed his distrust of people with a command of English.

May I assure you that I do not intend to wander outside the scope of the Bill? That scope has been made clear enough, but if I appear to do so briefly I would ask you to remember that I am, to use that horribly arch phrase, making my maiden speech. I would hope that what I have to say relates to the measures before the House all of the time I am speaking.

It is a good thing that it is an agreed measure, as the Minister pointed out in the Dáil. It was agreed in a double sense—agreed between the Minister and the representatives of the Garda and agreed in the sense that there is bipartisan agreement between Government and Opposition. I welcome it because certainly it will tend to improve industrial relations. It will help to relax the rather paternalistic atmosphere which for historical reasons has prevailed within the police force in this country. Perhaps more centralised and paternalistic police structures do and have prevailed in Ireland from the 19th century than in the other island.

I accept, of course, that to speak of democratising the Garda is in a sense contradictory, given the obligation of morale and discipline and so on, but I do welcome the measure to the extent that democratisation is possible within the force and to the extent that it will go some way towards meeting the frustration which certainly exists among individual members, as anybody knows who has talked to them. Therefore, I think it is a positive step that in terms of terminology the phrase "representative body" gives way to the term "association". That reflects a process in adult development, so to speak.

The more the Garda are content within themselves, the more it follows that their relations with the public at large will improve. To a certain extent it is difficult to avoid reference to their relations with the public, but if they are more democratised in their own body they will be compelled to take a larger interest in the country at large and in their relations with the citizens. It is a cloud-cuckoo concept to think that somehow the Garda exist in a cocoon of discipline and loyalty, and that they never think about the underlying basis of their relations with the citizens. I would hope that as they grow in self-responsible status they will come to realise that they themselves are ultimately the people who are responsible for law and order, not the Minister or the Commissioner. In the end the answer to the age-old question Quis custodiet ipsos custodes? may after all be very simple. It may well be ipsi custodes. As they improve in status I would hope that they will take a greater interest in politics in the widest sense.

When we contemplate the poor relations between the Garda and some sections of the population—the underprivileged sections and the youth—it becomes clear that the people who oppose the Garda and regard them with hatred see them not as the defenders of the community as a whole, of the State as a whole, but as defenders of a particular regime, defenders of the status quo. I submit that it will be good for all of us when the Garda themselves come to realise that their duty is not to uphold any particular ideology but to protect the citizens as a whole. I look forward to the day when the Garda come to aspire to a truer democracy than we have at present and to the day when they can confidently uphold law and order in the sense that it represents the law and order of all the people and when they can defend property when property means the widest possible distribution of wealth. Not until then can we speak of the Garda in the prematurely optimistic phrase of Thomas Drummond 140 years ago and say that they are a truly popular force. I welcome this Bill as a small but important step in that direction.

Mr. Kitt

Ba mhaith liom ar dtús comhgáirdeas a rá leis an gCathaoirleach agus fáilte a chur roimh an Aire. I know the Minister to be a very understanding person and I wish him well in his office. I hope that the Cathaoirleach will be equally understanding to me because this is my first opportunity to speak in the Seanad.

I welcome this Bill because of the greater freedom it gives to the members of the Garda Síochána. Under this Bill they have freedom to draw up their own constitution, freedom to conduct their own elections and generally manage their own affairs. As the Minister stated, under the existing regulations the affairs of the representative bodies are controlled to a considerable extent by the Commissioner.

This Bill will help the morale of the gardaí and this is very important because the gardaí have worked in very difficult circumstances, particularly ly during the last few years. They must receive support to combat the evil that is causing so much distress to our community in the streets of our cities. It is admirable that this association, this new word which will replace the words central bodies, have drawn up a constitution, one object of which, I should like to quote is:

to provide the means through which the members acting as a body can influence and promote the development of the Garda Síochána and contribute to greater administrative efficiency and service while having regard to the welfare of each member and the opportunities to enable him to realise his own potential.

There is one question I should like to raise with the Minister in connection with the welfare of the gardaí and that is the question of housing. I wonder what representations the Minister has had from the representative bodies concerning this. Speaking to members of the Garda I have found that there is a lack of housing particularly in rural areas and indeed also a lack of facilities in many of our Garda barracks throughout the country. In my area gardaí have to build their own houses and live sometimes outside the areas in which they serve. Many of the barracks need improving and I have noted that near some of the Garda barracks that are now being built, prefabricated houses are being provided. It is a pity that solid concrete houses are not being built. There should be living quarters provided in new barracks being built.

When a garda dies, his wife and family must quit the house provided for them. I know it is a difficult problem because there is a lack of housing at present, but it places the widow and family in a particularly difficult situation. The Minister is a compassionate man and he might be able to help families of gardaí who have suffered bereavements in that way.

I welcome particularly the Minister's commitment to recruit extra gardaí. This was outlined in the Fianna Fáil manifesto before the recent general election. I would also point out that there is a need for extra gardaí in rural areas as well as in the cities and larger centres of population. Thirdly, the members of the Garda Síochána are very closely associated with the people. They play a great part in our community, but at present many gardaí cannot live in the areas in which they serve.

I compliment the former Minister on having reached agreement on this measure. I would also congratulate him on recruiting extra gardaí. I would criticise him, however, on the delay that took place when we were looking for extra gardaí at a time when they were very badly needed. Last year more than 3,000 young people applied to become members of the Garda Síocána. For that reason it seems obviously necessary that extra gardaí could be recruited as they are needed, and the Minister has already committed his Government to that policy.

I should like to deal with the question of training. Many people have expressed the idea that the training at the moment, which I think will last approximately five months, is not long enough. Whether that is so or not, I think there should be ongoing training in the Garda as is the case in many other professions. I ask the Minister to consider that point also.

I welcome the section that deals with the procedure on pensions. It is time that Garda pensions were brought into line with other pensions, particularly those of the Army, and I am glad this has been included in this Bill. On the question of criticism of the gardaí generally and of public relations, the Garda Band and the Garda Choir are just two examples of the kind of good public relations exercise that the Garda engage in. This is a short Bill and I welcome it and wish the Minister every success in his office.

Mr. Harte

I welcome the Minister and wish him well in his onerous tasks and thank him for following up so quickly the work of his predecessor and for giving credit to his predecessor for what has been done in this respect. I have mixed feelings about it in the sense that it is sad in a society that demands so much democracy that it has taken so long for some of that democracy to spill over into the Garda Síochána in the sense of their rights. However, better late than never. When one considers the amount of time that has gone by when they did not get their rights, even though I would have some reservations about the extent to which this Bill goes, in the sense that it is not enough, I see it as a major step forward and I look forward with confidence to some more development particularly when they enable the Garda to manage their own affairs, when they themselves would be able to bring about the proper types of agreed procedures within which they could process their grievances in accordance with trade union practice but not in accordance with the full rights of trade unionism.

I was a little bit worried that the previous Minister, even though he was a great democrat, did not find it possible to grant the Garda trade union status and what stops me from pressing it is the fact that the Garda body freely accepted that there were difficulties. However, I was a little disappointed that they let go so easily on that point. I congratulate the Garda representatives who negotiated the terms of the agreement that brought about the Bill, in the sense of being sensible, in not digging in on pay and other rights. That was a very sensible approach, because otherwise they would probably be still arguing about what the Bill would contain.

The other point on which I should like the Minister's assistance is the question of association, the right to associate with outside bodies. What I am trying to establish is whether the association could be considered to be in the same context for instance, as the airline pilots' body can affiliate with the TUC.

The Minister said that in certain conditions they can have this association. Is there anything that would prevent a Garda body affiliating to a registered trade union? Is there anything in the Bill that gives scope for this as an initial step towards full integration into a trade union movement?

Like Senator Kitt, I am delighted about the easing up of the procedures in regard to pensions orders. It is desirable. When we are dealing with a force so vunerable, where they are exposed regularly to malicious injuries, to a situation where armed robbery has practically become the norm, we cannot go far enough to facilitate them and to give them security. I would be the first to stand up to lend support to anything that could be enacted to assist them.

We are looking for good type of gardaí and we have them, but in order to get them there is a certain procedure which destroys some enthusiastic young men who have a consuming desire to become gardaí, and that is the interview procedure. They are controlled by the conditions, on the education side, of the Civil Service Commission, and if you fail the Irish, that is it. Yet the astonishing feature of this—I suppose nobody else but myself would have the hard neck to say it—is that if a garda stops you on the road and if the conversation goes beyond two or three sentences, the garda is lost in respect of Irish. Yet lack of a knowledge of Irish prevents young men from becoming members of the Garda Síochána. This should be looked at. I am not saying that Irish should be removed as a condition of the civil service examination.

That is the first step in the procedure. The second step is that the recruit gets a test in oral Irish and a medical test and then he goes for interview. If he fails the interview the problem can be looked at, but if he fails at the examination side of it, merely in Irish, that seems to be the end of it as far as the Garda Síochána is concerned. I should like to know is that the end of it? Would it not be a practical proposition that in a case specifically where the amount of Irish they would be involved in would be minimal, there would be another opportunity given? When somebody tries to become a member of the Garda Síochána, some special concession should be made whereby the person could sit for the Irish interview again, and not turn him down at that completely. He may be rejected later, possibly in the medical test or the interview, but it is sad to think that somebody's world can collapse because he failed the initial Irish test. Candidates can be very bright, healthy, energetic and carry a trauma with them for the rest of their lives because they fall down on something which they may never have to use again to any extent. It is the end of an opportunity for a career for them. It would not happen in any other circumstances. The Minister should think seriously about it. I am not blaming the Minister for this. I am blaming the system. With particular regard to the question of affiliation to a trade union and the question of failure in Irish, I should like to know if something cannot be done.

For people who might get frightened when I speak about trade unions, I may add that nurses have the right to strike and have had it for a long time but they do not go on strike very often. We hear of threats, but nurses and a lot of other people who have the right to do so, never go on strike. It is not such an outrageous thing to think that some day, through affiliation with a trade union, gardaí will become full members of trade unions.

Mr. Brennan

This Bill is obviously the outcome of rather detailed and complex negotiations with the people involved. It seems to represent a compromise between the trade union claims on the one hand and the present outmoded arrangements on the other hand. It seems to me to be a job well done. The Minister for Justice, and indeed the previous Minister for Justice, are to be congratulated on the work put into this Bill.

Having said that, I must take issue with Senator Harte on one point. I regard the Garda Síochána as a disciplinary force, as being of the people and being there to serve the State and the people. For this reason one would have to be extremely careful, as it is an extremely delicate matter, in talking about the right to strike in a case like this. On the one hand, Senator Harte points out that it is no harm to give the right to strike but of course they will not use it. I could not accept that because if you give people the right to do something, you cannot quibble if they do it later on. You must think it out clearly in advance. I regard the Garda Síochána as a disciplinary force and it is in that context we should——

Mr. Harte

Does that mean they should never have the right to strike?

Mr. Brennan

I believe that. I should like to refer briefly to the crime situation which the Minister is doing his best to combat. There seems to be an increased number of gardaí on the streets. In the Minister's fight against crime on our streets, the people are behind him. We say to the Minister to keep the pressure on, put on more foot patrols. I believe that the foot patrol is a superior method of combating crime than any mobile method. The people of Ireland are saying that the Minister has their full support in taking whatever action is needed on the streets to rid our cities, in particular, of crime.

The increase in the number of robberies, which appear to take place on Fridays, leads me to believe that we should take a serious look at the method of payment of wages. I have no ready-made formula for answering that problem but perhaps payment of all workers by cheque or money order, with suitable cashing arrangements, would be desirable. Perhaps this whole area can be looked at and that the trade unions could be spoken to about it. It would take a lot of pressure from the Garda Síochána in protecting wage rolls on Fridays, and I am sure it would ease the minds of a lot of workers.

There is one aspect of the Bill I should like the Minister to comment on, which provides for the Minister to authorise a body with which the Garda association may associate. How broad is it? Has the Minister got a completely free hand in designating those bodies with which the Garda association may associate themselves or is he circumscribed by some law which exists in the Statute Book?

Overall, this Bill marks a step forward in the staff arrangements with the Garda Síochána and I wish them the very best with the new arrangements and hope they will work satisfactorily.

Mr. Burke

I congratulate the Minister on his appointment and wish him every success in the years ahead. I should like to make a few points on the Bill. First as regard the association, the gardaí have been denied the right to join a trade union which is the right of all other people. In view of this, the association now envisaged should be, in my view, sufficiently strong with power to deal effectively with the Department. Elected members of the association should not be the subject of victimisation regarding promotions and so on, as was the case in the past. They should be consulted in police matters, such as managerial changes, transfers and so on.

The proposed association are not the answer because of the way they are being organised. The reason for this is that they are divided into groups. First, you have the garda ranks, who have accepted this with reservation, and second, you have inspectors and sergeants, among whom there is a split because a section of the inspectors are seeking a separate association and sergeants have not agreed with such a provision. I believe the answer is one association for all ranks with a branch for each rank.

With regard to training, at present a recruit gets 21 weeks training. In the times and society in which we live this is totally inadequate. This has not been changed for 24 years and that in itself is reason for change. A recruit should get at least one year's training after which he should be sent to a small station in the country where he would deal with everyday matters in a relatively quiet atmosphere and where he would be properly assessed to see if he would be suitable for country, large town or city service.

At present the position is that a recruit after 21 weeks training is sent to a large centre where nobody has time to bother with him, and the result is that a good number of young men are going the wrong road. Recruits should be trained in human and public relations and so on, which is not being done at present because time does not permit.

The grave mistake of closing stations needs to be looked at again. In the light of the rise in unlawful organisations and serious crimes which occur daily throughout the country, the removal of a Garda station from any village or suburban area is wrong because you lose touch with the ordinary people whose wish is to have a Garda station in their areas. Then there is a reduction of station staff. You have stations with only one junior garda where there was a sergeant and three gardaí a few years ago. A more ridiculous situation still is where you have one sergeant who is in a supervisory rank. In those stations you have a sergeant supervising himself. The answer is a Garda station in all small villages throughout the country with a sergeant in charge of three, operating as one unit.

The present position on transfers is a penalty on promotion resulting in the better type garda not seeking promotion, as happened recently where a garda being promoted to sergeant was informed he would be transferred 200 miles to a northern county. He requested demotion. What advantage is it to be transferred 200 miles from base for less than £2 per week rise in pay? I know three sergeants in the Cork area who were transferred to Border counties, Donegal, Monaghan and Cavan, at great expense to the State and to the individuals alike, and members from the northern counties being transferred to the Munster area. The men sent to Border areas could have been transferred to stations in the Munster area. I should like to ask the Minister to have a look at those points when he is summing up.

Mícheál Cranitch

Ar an gcéad dul síos, ba mhaith liom comhgháirdeas a dhéanamh leis an Aire. Guíom gach rath air i rith na mblianta atá le teacht. Is fear tuiscineach, lách, grástúil é, a chuireann i gcuimhne dhúinn an chomhairle a thug an t-aingeal fadó gan dearmad a dhéanamh ar an trócaire.

Fáiltím roimh an mBille seo. Pé rud a dhéanfaimís chun cabhrú leis an Gharda Síochána, is ceart agus is comhair dúinn é sin a dhéanamh. Táimid buíoch díobh. Táimid buíoch dá ndíograis agus, dar ndóigh, táimid an-mhorálach as a misneach in am an foiréigin.

On page 2 of the Minister's statement it is summarised very clearly for us what the Bill intends to do. There are three major reforms listed here. I will not go through them as Senators will have them read. When the Minister was reading his statement the thought crossed my mind, how was it we never did that before? The three major reforms there look very reasonable, mild and deserving when you consider the demands being made in other areas of employment in the age we live in.

The Garda deserve well of the Irish people. They are a splendid force of which any nation could be proud. They come from every stratum of Irish society. They are of the people and for the people. Their title, Garda Síochána, is a happy one. We should not call them police, but what they are, Garda Síochána, men whose business and vocation it is to keep the peace and to see that it is kept. I wonder had Shakespeare some such title in mind when he said long ago that the quality of mercy is not strained. At least it should not drop as a brutal baton on the skull beneath. Thank God, by and large, the overwhelming majority of our Garda force have been kind, solicitous and fatherly in their dealings with the public. That is an extraordinary tribute when you consider the long history of disillusionment, disappointment and hatred for the forces of "law and order" which was there before the advent of the Garda Síochána.

A garda lives among the people, and to complete his vocation to the ultimate satisfaction the good garda will always be associated with the people in their joys, sorrows, in their clubs and societies, thus laying the foundation for a very happy relationship between the garda and the people he serves. It is inconceivable that the garda who mixes with the people socially, who plays on the hurling and football teams, joins their societies and works with them would not get assistance from those people when it is needed. There is a big social aspect in all of this. We are dealing with human beings. A garda, like the parish priest or the schoolmaster, the lawyer or solicitor, is dealing with people. He is not dealing with inanimate objects or animals; he is dealing with human beings. Therefore, the basic question is one of human relationships.

I should like to refer to the type of training necessary for a garda. Other Senators have referred to what they consider as the inadequacy of garda training. I understand the period is five months most of which is devoted to physical development, weapon training, legal matters and so on. There should be a thorough grounding in the social needs of a community, the part a garda can play while living in that community, and the type of activities he should engage in in order to gain and promote the confidence of the people.

Another important point which it saddens me to mention is the reluctance of the gardaí, especially the younger members to use the Irish language. I do not know the reason for this. Perhaps it is that sufficient emphasis is not placed on the importance of our language and culture during their period of training. If that is so, then it should be corrected. I do not intend to pursue this point, but this has been my experience. On the other hand, I have had very pleasant conversations with members of the force in our language and they were very glad of the opportunity to speak Irish with me.

In the last paragraph of his speech the Minister said:

We all recognise, I think, that it is essential to the well-being of the community that we should have a contented, strong and efficient police force. I have every hope that, by facilitating the functioning of good personal relations within the Garda Síochána, the new charter which is being written for the representative bodies will contribute to that objective.

I am sure every Member of the House concurs with that hope.

Mr. Markey

First of all let me say that any Act which has been on the Statute Book for 50 years is bound to show some signs of stress and strain after such a lengthy period. This Bill deals with certain aspects of the Garda Síochána Act, 1924, and perhaps there may be other aspects of that Act which also need an overhaul as has been done with the personnel matter we are dealing with today.

I have a certain amount of sympathy for members of the Garda Síochána because I feel that they are no longer held in the same public regard in which they were held hitherto. I believe they are aware of this lessening of esteem. Through this Bill we have improved their negotiating ability, giving them extended negotiating facilities and the basic democratic facilities which exist for other associations in regard to pay and living conditions. But we must bear in mind that we have held from them the right to affiliate with the Congress of Trade Unions and so hold trade union status. The question of whether the Garda Síochána should hold trade union status and be recognised as such may be an academic one as I believe that the Garda Síochána, being the responsible body of men they are, would be most reluctant to wield the strike weapon which would be available to them. That strike weapon is at the disposal of other professions and organisations which occupy crucial positions in the State but yet is not exercised by them. I would be confident that the Garda Síochána would be as reluctant to exercise that weapon.

Having withheld the authority from them to affiliate to the CTU we must ensure that they have at their disposal the basic negotiating rights which exist within any associations or trade unions. We have gone part of the way in that respect, and two questions are posed. Firstly, what will be gained, from what has been given, by members of the Garda Síochána? I have no doubt that from their point of view they will regard it as an opportunity to regain some of their former public esteem and also they will see it as an opportunity to pursue with greater vigour than before their claims for improvement in their living standards and remuneration. Secondly, what will be gained for the State? We should look with confidence to an improvement in the efficiency with which the members of the Garda Síochána carry out their duties and to an improvement in relations between the Garda Síochána and the public.

We have in the past on occasions, expected more from the Garda than we were prepared to give when settling their complaints. We thought that if we gave them adequate overtime payments it would go a long way towards easing their complaints. Overtime, in the short-term, is a welcome measure for a garda as for any other citizen but in the long-term it becomes the minimum expectation for that person and his family. There are other ways besides generous overtime facilities in which we can obtain from members of the Garda Síochána the service we expect. For instance, traffic wardens now assume some of the duties which were hitherto carried out by gardaí. There could be further extensions in this field which could lead to a diversion of manpower within the Garda force to more important matters.

Also in every superintendent's headquarters there are rank and file gardaí holding clerical positions. I question this. These clerical duties could be performed by young boys and girls who have not undergone training for the Garda Síochána. This would again divert trained members to more important security matters and to the preservation of the peace.

Finally, in the matter of bank and payroll security, it is long overdue that banking and other large commercial institutions should bear some part of the burden, and not have members of the Garda Síochána on Fridays and other days of the week standing outside such establishments in practically every town in the country.

When we speak of the Garda Síochána we have always at the back of our minds the image created in the early nineteen twenties at the foundation of that force that they are above any political association or influence in Ireland. I feel that the Garda Síochána should be divorced a little bit more from the Minister for Justice so that that image is maintained. If we are to expect from the members of the Garda Síochána the continuation of the service that we started out with 50 years ago we must always remember that the quality of that service is always dictated by what is put into it in the first instance. The training courses which gardaí pursue—I think it is about 21 or 22 weeks—seem very short for what is possibly the most important public function in this State. The necessity for continuing and regular refresher courses becomes more important and I feel the Department of Justice should look here a little more closely. If the Garda Síochána have, as a result of what we have given them today in this Bill, a greater self confidence and if they have greater trust that they can pursue for themselves adequate remuneration and adequate living conditions, then I think that the State can with confidence look in return for increased efficiency and also a better output from them.

I think the courtesy from members of the Garda Síochána not generally, but in certain isolated instances, has been somewhat less satisfactory than the treatment accorded by members of, say, the RUC. I hesitate to say this but it has also been voiced to me by people who had had on many occasions to travel into Northern Ireland and meet the various road checks on both sides of the Border. I think this matter of public relations—I suppose it boils down to the simple factor of courtesy— is something which I think we are increasingly conscious of as being desirable in all State agencies in this country, and I do not intend to direct it in a general fashion to the members of the Garda Síochána. It perhaps goes back to the training course in the first instance and to the need for refresher courses to give them confidence that they can co-operate with the public in this country, and that they need not be afraid that the public will turn on them in any way, or will be suspicious of them in any way.

Having those few words of reservations I must extend tribute to the Garda Síochána as a whole. I think we have been more than fortunate in having them at our service for the past 50 years. We expect an awful lot from them and we should at least try to give them what they see other organisations enjoying. We must always remember that if we leave any State agency personnel in a position that they feel they are being treated differently and accorded different facilities than other organisations then we must accept that such will only lead to frustration and strain, and the Garda Síochána is certainly one force in which we do not want this to happen.

There is just one section of the Bill about which I have a little reservation. It is section 1 (5) in which the Minister, where he is authorising the association to deal with outside agencies or bodies, will be able to specify conditions and restrictions and will be able to withdraw any such authorisation at any time. I feel this may be a little too restrictive on the freedom to negotiate, and it may lead to a certain amount of friction in future in negotiations. I think we could well see the situation where the Minister can say "No, you cannot enter into discussion with such a body for advice". I think the wording in the section could be a little less restrictive. I would like to have the Minister's assurance that he has nothing in his mind as regards undue restrictions on the gardaí in their entering into discussions with other bodies to further their case.

Mr. Jago

There cannot be any opposition to this Bill. However, it does create matters on which comment may be made. When I was a boy—and this may be history in the Minister's book—my first contact with policemen was with the RIC and the DMP and there were many fine men in those bodies. Then there was a gap in which we had no policemen. I remember a time in Cork when a body came on the streets in civilian clothes with a white band marked CCP, and that was the Cork Civil Police. What happened in Dublin at that time I do not know, but I can distinctly remember how proud I felt when our own Garda Síochána came on the streets in Cork in their blue uniforms, with their bright shiny buttons, their batons in a leather case strapped to their sides and their helmets with their shiny mountings. You felt the presence of law and order in the streets when you saw those men attired as they were.

Since then there has been a change. We have had the advent of the squad car, the advent of the motorcycle gardaí, and I wonder whether we have improved efficiency with the change. I wonder why the helmet disappeared. Was it because it was uncomfortable or was it because it cost too much? As they used to say in the old music hall song, "Ask a policeman, he knows everything, he is everything to everybody." It was a comforting sight at night when you saw a guard in a darkened helmet without the shiny mountings, going round checking every door. I wonder has the change been for the better. However, I leave it there with that question. Suffice it to say that the image of the integrity of the force has been upheld despite those changes. There have been accusations made of late but I will not comment on them because they may be sub judice. The majority of our community still hold the force in high regard. In introducing the Bill the Minister said:

My predecessor made it clear to them, however, that he could not agree to concede trade union status or the right to strike, and considered that concession of these matters would be incompatible with the functions and responsibilities of members of the force.

It is heartening that this was accepted, evidently without question, by the Garda. It proves their responsibility as a force. They know that the community would suffer if they were to take irresponsible action. This raises the question whether the right to strike is compatible with the functions and responsibilities of other sections of our community. The association to be formed and I quote the Minister, "... is to help to improve their status and image.". The word "maintain" should have been used instead of "improve". The word "status" is used to refer to the high regard with which they are held at present.

Finally, I hope, and I commend this to the Minister, that the improvement in their conditions will be speedily gained under this legislation to prove that justice is attainable by procedural methods without the strike weapon. The strike weapon can spread in many directions, damaging the innocent bystander and boomeranging on the marksman.

I welcome this Bill and I hope that it will have a speedy effect.

Mr. Howard

I have noticed that most of the previous speakers extended their congratulations to the Minister. I extend him my good wishes for a successful term in what I recognise as a difficult Ministry. I should also like to put on record my appreciation of the courage and commitment of the Minister's predecessor, Senator Patrick Cooney, who was Minister for Justice during what I regard as being the most difficult time we have had since the establishment of the State.

I welcome this Bill and I feel that it is long overdue. I recognise that there were difficulties and that there was a sense of grievance among many members of the police force, especially in relation to the absence of effective channels through which they could discuss and resolve difficulties that arose in relation to their welfare, efficiency, promotion and discipline. I sincerely hope that the implementation of this Bill will see a new situation in which there is satisfaction among the Garda Síochána.

In his speech the Minister said that he shared the common belief that there is a necessity for a contented, strong and efficient police force. I would hope that, having brought about that situation, we would have and could look forward to the members of the Garda Síochána having a new sense of commitment and a new sense of dedication to the job they have in hand.

I would be less than honest if I did not say that there is a growing sense of frustration in our society and many people are questioning the capacity of the Garda to fight and overcome our growing crime rate. It is a serious matter when people are being attacked and assaulted in their homes, when business premises would appear to be sitting ducks for armed thugs. That feeling of frustration and questioning is justified. There is an obligation on the Minister and on the Garda authorities to leave no doubt in the minds of our people that they are determined to provide the resources, be they in manpower, equipment or method, to combat this growing wave of crime and murder.

If we expect the Garda to act as a barrier between the people and lawlessness, we should support and encourage them in the discharge of their duties. I doubt that we have given sufficient encouragement and support to the Garda in recent times. Have we always given them support? Have we always recognised their successes? On the other hand, we have often been willing to condemn their failings at the slightest opportunity. Some of our people have been willing to join hands with sources of doubtful purpose and character in undermining the morale of our police force. Our courts have not always given the members of our police force the support and encouragement they deserve.

Reference has been made this afternoon to the training of our gardaí. I share the views that have been expressed. After a period of 24 years the time has arrived to examine whether the methods of training are sufficient and adequate. If they are not adequate, they should be improved.

One final point I should like to make is that our security situation has lead to a real deployment of the police force. One of the side effects of that is the reduction of Garda strength in provincial and rural areas. Another of the side effects of that reduction has been the increase in petty crime and vandalism. While we can say that the serious crimes we are concerned with at present are confined to our largest centres of population, it may well be only a question of time before the same undesirable situation applies to other areas.

I welcome the Bill. I expect that its passing may bring about a new feeling of satisfaction and commitment in our Garda and for that reason it has my full support.

Mr. Mulcahy

Ar dtús ba mhaith liom fáilte a thabhairt don Aire chun an Teach seo. Tá súil agam go mbeidh an Bille mar taca don Aire.

I, like everybody else, welcome this Bill. I thought it might be opportune to deliberate, as my colleague, Senator Murphy said, on some of the factors behind it. The emergence of a peace-keeping force by the Act of 1924 has provided the country with security over the years.

All institutions must over a time adapt as cultural development takes place. Periodically a change is needed. The 1924 Act seems to have served us well. In industry we have done a lot of research on what it is that gives job satisfaction, and some of the findings from industry are obviously relevant to the job of the Garda Síochána. It is helpful to distinguish between those factors that generate the environment in which a person has to do a job and those which provide the real satisfaction in doing the job. They are both different. The absence of some of those factors—what one might call the environmental ones— might inhibit somebody getting satisfaction from doing a job well. Making the barracks brighter and cleaner might make it better for the garda and give him a better environment in which to work, but it is not necessarily going to give him any real satisfaction. That will come from the way he goes about his job, from the recognition and sense of achievement he gets for doing it and the opportunity he has to grow.

It is up to the State, the Minister and his Department to do their best in both areas and this is more pressing at a time when the demand for democratisation is growing in our institutions. How is it possible to reconcile all these? Does it mean, for instance, that putting a policeman into a car and making him mobile to survey Sheriff Street through a motor car window is a better way of getting job satisfaction? I doubt that.

As a public representative interested in that area I had occasion to walk around those streets and I enjoyed joining the Garda foot patrols, walking side by side with Inspector McDermott and his colleagues. It was very heartening to see the way the people of that area met and chatted with them. Good relations are based on on-going communications, face to face communications. I tend to support the Senator who said that a foot patrol may very well give not only a better service but a better sense of satisfaction to the individual garda. The development of a community spirit in this regard is a very welcome one. It is interesting to see now that the Garda are attending to this and are being identified with some of these communities. To some extent this might raise the notion that having a branch or portion of the force identified with a particular area might not be a bad idea. I commend that to the Minister for further attention. The old DMP is a typical example.

On the question of the role and job of the Garda it is useful to think of Weber's famous definition of a State, that is, a territory in which people live where only one group has the right to use force. Our police force are in a unique position. They are, as Senator Brennan said, a disciplinary force and, if necessary, have the right to use force. This right carries with it concomitant obligations. It is because of that that we cannot entertain the idea of a strike. At no point in time should it be possible for a force, which by its existence defines a State, have the right to withdraw its services. The people contract that situation and the Garda, therefore, must forego the right to strike in principle.

I agree with the comments made about training. It may be that the approach to training needs possibly some outside help as far as the Department and the force are concerned. There is a lot to be learned from the field of adult education in this regard because that is what they are at. It is on-going. The Minister should give that some consideration.

Finally, two congratulations—one to the Minister who, I notice, is taking the opportunity publicly to defend his colleagues and the officials of the Department who have to deal with these matters. It is a good thing that he should be doing that. Congratulations are also due to the four officers who recently graduated with university degrees. This is a sign, I hope, like the Senator who spoke earlier, that it is an indication that the force are increasing in sophistication and taking the steps needed to combat the sophistication of the criminals of today. I do not wish to give the impression that we want a technological Garda Síochána and I praised the good paternal relationship that exists—I have seen it in the streets of Dublin, in Sean MacDermott Street—where some of the older gardaí seem to act as grandparents to the children of an area. It is fascinating and I am proud to note it here. But there is a need for the development of a more sophisticated force and I hope that the fact that four officers obtained their degrees is the first sign of that. I welcome the Bill.

Dr. Martin

I welcome the Bill also and I should like to endorse what Senator Mulcahy said. Every point he has made is relevant and important.

I want to make one or two points relating to the situation out of which this Bill has emerged, at least the need that produced a Bill of this kind. The situation with regard to the Garda is, and has to be, that they cannot go on strike. Senator Mulcahy has made that point and it has been made by other Senators. The fact that they cannot go on strike, therefore, makes it difficult for them to negotiate as other bodies of organised labour can. It is more or less established, at least in the West, as an absolute right that a person can withdraw labour. Gardaí cannot do that. The result is that it is incumbent on the State to see that that deprivation does not bite deep into their morale, into their sense of their duty and of their status.

This Bill is therefore welcome in the sense that they can at least negotiate but it should be recognised—the Minister has shown some sensitivity in this matter—that what they are doing is of vital importance. It should have a built-in guarantee that they will get not just the minimum to which they are entitled but something more than that. There should be a built-in guarantee that the gardaí should be paid more and treated better. In other words, they should be treated as well as they would negotiate for if they had the right to withdraw their labour.

We should be extremely sensitive about that point. We are dealing with people who are very highly motivated, who are there to defend our liberties, who frequently put themselves in danger but who have not the right to withdraw their labour or strike. It should be recognised that in such groups as these a special tenderness should be shown towards them and their requirements with regard to conditions and their remuneration. One of the things which has emerged is the fact that the structure in the Garda Síochána is rather old fashioned. It is like the old military style. The military style has to remain the same but, as Senator Mulcahy and others have pointed out, the role of the gardaí has changed because society is more problematical now than it was. The normal garda is required now to marshal a good deal more of the social skills, of the ability to talk to people, to cajole people, not just to arrest them. We are dealing with a society which is going to pose a problem. We would all like our community to be more liberal, to abolish all forms of constraint, abolish corporal punishment—that is gone— and capital punishment which is gone, except in special cases.

We would like to get rid of imprisonment also. The majority of our people want that. But if even a small body of people in our society withdraw their consent—supposing we have a situation like the Bader-Meinhoff group in Germany—no matter how much one wants to liberalise society if a determined group say they do not want it, then the role of the Garda in that situation becomes more and more problematical, requires more and more finesse and, therefore, requires a better kind of operative. That kind of person can only be cultivated and attracted into the force if he is given the dignity of negotiation on the one hand but, more so, a greater devolution of power down through the ranks. The absolute diktat of one man, of one Commissioner at the top, might have been all right 30 years ago and was all right but is not all right now. I urge the Minister to carry out a strenuous re-examination of what the structure should be like, in other words, negotiation within the Garda on how to deal with an increasingly fluid and, in some ways, an increasingly explosive social situation.

That brings me to the last point. Last night there was an extremely impressive and disturbing television programme about the firemen in England. A number of firemen in the Liverpool area were interviewed. They were asked why they are going on strike. The question put to them was a fair one: they had joined the fire fighting force because they were well motivated and wanted to help the public; they wanted to put out fires. They agreed and replied that they feel great when they rescue two children from a skyscraper; but when one brings only £35 home to one's wife on a Saturday, having done all that, the feeling is not quite so great. As a matter of fact, there is a tendency to feel that one is a sucker, a fool. One has been working from the point of view of idealism but the society which is using the effort uses it in a far less charismatic way.

If we are to expect the Garda Síochána to go on acting as well as they have been—they have a pretty good record by and large—and if they are to go on and improve their status and give us a service which is going to become increasingly urgent, we must improve their conditions. The question of unmotivated violence is quite universal now. It has hit us in some ways but some of its more brutal, anarchist and nihilist forms have not quite hit us yet. By and large the subversive forces in the country are motivated by rather old fashioned and archaic notions of patriotism and nationalism misunderstood and so forth. There is a kind of mindless violence that struck the 19th century and one has only to read Conrad to grasp it. That kind of unmotivated violence is coming closer to us; and to cope with that we need a police force which is pretty massively equipped and which should feel extremely well motivated in going about its daily duties. Therefore, this is a step; but it is only a first step. I suggest it be seen in that context and that, in fact, a restructuring, a rethinking of the whole role of the police force in our society is overdue. In other words, I see this as a kind of piecemeal job. The larger and more philosophic operation of the police in our society at the present moment is something that should be urgently considered.

Lady Goulding

I ask the House to bear with me because this is my maiden speech and it will therefore be a short one.

I welcome the Bill very much but I would like to ask one thing. I agree that gardaí should not be members of a union but I believe they should have the right to strike. I know this goes against a lot of what the other Senators have said, but if the gardaí feel they have the right to strike they are less likely to do so; and we would not be in a position like the Government across the water where the police say they are going to strike whether it is said they can or not. Within their association they should have the right to strike.

Mr. McGowan

I should like to say a few words in welcoming the Bill. Most of us realise that the provisions of the Bill are necessary. Without casting any reflection on the previous Minister for Justice, the Government and the Minister inherited a lot of problems and discontent in the Garda force. For that reason we should all be associated with welcoming the Bill. It will provide the gardaí with an association they can consult and negotiate with. It can only do good.

I should like to say something about what I consider to be a special problem in Border areas. In spite of the fact that the restrictions imposed in the 1924 Act are unacceptable to the gardaí it should be remembered that the restrictions imposed on the gardaí in Border areas were not intended in the 1924 Act. However, they were not covered in this amendment to that Act.

I shall give the House an idea of those restrictions. Senators will realise that Border duty for a garda is part of his normal service in the force. It takes him up to the Border counties. Many of those policemen come from towns with a population of about say a town of equivalent size in Cork 2,000 people and five gardaí and a sergeant. In the Border towns they work from stations that have 25 gardaí and five sergeants. There are restrictions imposed on those gardaí in so far as they have to go out around the neighbourhood, around the general public almost to the point of harassing them because they are asked to produce results in traffic offences. The chances of one being charged with a minor offence in Border counties are more than five times greater than they are in the rest of the country.

This is bringing about a lot of disquiet among the gardaí themselves. They are under a lot of pressure and there are restrictions and pressures being put on them that are not applicable to the rest of the country. The end result of that does not bring about the desired effect in so far as the gardaí, who depend largely on the public in the execution of their duty regardless of what part of the country they are in, have to deliver summonses for minor offences to farmers and so on. If they meet somebody who has not a vehicle properly lighted they must issue a sheaf of summonses. However, the gardaí must often go back to those houses and talk to the same people seeking information in connection with more serious crimes.

The restrictions and pressures put on the gardaí are self-defeating in so far as they cannot do any country work without the help and support of the community. In the Border counties we have a serious problem in this regard. It is certainly an area of great disquiet. Most gardaí must face the problem. A special note should be taken of this. The gardaí should not be asked to persecute the public in Border counties. Some better method of approach should be adopted. It is most unreasonable that the present state of affairs should be allowed to exist. I am hopeful that with the introduction of these new methods the Minister will see fit to examine that area of complaint and see that a reasonable system applies in future.

Mr. Alexis FitzGerald

I want to make one short contribution to the debate. I hope there has been some attempt made over the last few years with the increase in the complexity of commerce and industry here to develop what is popularly known as the Fraud Squad, and the skill of that squad. It is very important for the reputation of our society that there be machinery to swiftly and effectively get through the complexities that often have to be got through to discover who it was that was responsible for the frauds that lie behind some quite notorious insolvencies. It is important that the people who perpetrate crimes far more damaging and graver than those who commit petty thefts from shops or lift goods from shops or engage in embezzlement, where they are all too certain to be found out, are brought to justice for the sake of the reputation of our society and to protect the innocent people —sometimes ultimately very small people whose savings are destroyed by those concerned.

I hope there is a section of the force where such skills are being developed, as they must be developed, to cope with the kind of investigations which need to be carried out quickly. I have in mind the kind of investigations which can be carried out efficiently, for example, by the Revenue Commissioners where there are any kind of customs and excise or value-added tax type of frauds. They have available expertise which can get readily and quickly to the heart of the complex matter to the perpetrators of the frauds concerned. That is my only contribution to this debate.

Mr. Lanigan

I do not agree with the reservations expressed here by speakers in regard to the negotiating rights of the new body and, in particular, with their reservations expressed in connection with the right to go on strike. The negotiators on both sides have done a good job for the State. We have at last found agreement between the Garda Síochána and the relevant Department on matters which were festering over a long number of years. The fact that they have only come to head now is something which we all have to be thankful for. Over the years many felt that the Garda were under attack from many sides, that they were not getting support from the Department or from the public Because they felt they did not have the proper negotiating rights they were becoming distressed, and this distress was creeping into the feeling of malaise Senator Robinson spoke about.

A happy Garda force is what we need here. If we go along with this Bill we can get such a happy force. The negotiating rights are there now. They negotiated with the Department a set of rules they agree with. Mention has been made of the PR arrangements within the Garda. We do not use the Garda too often as a PR instrument. How often do we see Garda superintendents going to our schools? How often do we see them going to social functions in uniform? This does not happen too often. Because we often meet gardaí in stress situations we become afraid of them. Children first see a garda when he goes to their school to check up on the roll book. He goes in there in a stress situation. If they paid regular visits to schools and institutions of all descriptions and talked about the work and problems of the Garda we might not have as many problems as there seem to be at present. Gardaí should be proud of the uniform they wear, and we should be proud of it also. If they are attending social functions they should attend in uniform. A dress uniform such as the Army have should be available to them. Why should we be ashamed of having gardaí in uniform at our functions? They are the guardians of the State just as the Army are. Better use could be made by the public of the gardaí as PR agents for the force.

Mention has been made also of the training received. Over the years there has been little change in the length of time Garda recruits spend in training. However, I have not seen any great deterioration in the functions carried out by the gardaí. They come on the streets better able to perform their duties than they were in the past. The training they are getting must be of a high quality. The training they get when they go to their stations is often forgotten about. The practical training and advice they get from senior officers within the force is part of their training also. Having spent some time on practical work there should be a college for further training in specific areas.

The question has been raised about the housing of gardaí in NBA houses. This is a festering sore that will continue until something is done about it. Not alone have the gardaí not got the right to purchase their houses, which every other citizen in the country has, but they find that too often they are waiting for years to have repairs carried out. The condition of these houses is often in complete contrast to that of the other houses in the area. In certain areas the fronts of houses have not been painted for years. This leads to a lessening of the feeling that the gardaí are people who deserve recognition in society.

The Bill is a welcome one. It should have the support of everybody. The Garda Síochána have worked very hard through the years. Their conditions are difficult because they generally meet people in stressful situations. Anything that can be done to enhance their working and living conditions should be agreed by everybody. Having said that, I sincerely hope that it will not be the year 2024 before the next Bill comes before the House for amendments to be made in Garda conditions. It is ludicrous not to have had a change since 1924 in our evolving society. I sincerely hope that if the necessity arises we will have changes.

Mrs. Hussey

Following custom I should like to congratulate the Minister on his appointment and, since he is here, I congratulate Deputy D. Andrews on his appointment as Parliamentary Secretary.

Obviously this Bill is the result of protracted negotiations. Senator Cooney must be congratulated for the successful outcome of these negotiations which appears before us in the form of this Bill.

Society relies enormously on the Garda. We ask them, in effect, to do the dirty work of society. We ask them also to be public relations officers, social workers, brilliant detectives, guardians of the peace and very many other things which have been mentioned by other Senators. They are in effect, asked to preserve our whole way of life. We also ask them to be models for our children to respect but not to fear and to turn the other cheek if they are mercilessly provoked, which they are in many cases—and then we ask them to waive the right to strike

I had the honour recently to speak at a meeting of the Irish Medical Union in Galway. I had a long chat with a juvenile liaison officer of the Garda who works in the Dublin city centre area. He said that more than 50 per cent of their work was social work for which they were not trained. Twenty-two weeks in Templemore of physical training and instruction is not training for social work. Social workers come from universities with three or four years of practical and theoretical training behind them. This is not fair either to the gardaí or to the people they have to deal with while doing their work.

From what has been said here today and from what I hear in many areas, it is clear that a big question mark hangs over the whole training of the Garda. Something will have to be done about examining that system, for the sake of the Garda and for the sake of society. Irish society, like many other societies in Western Europe, undervalue certain professions. Nurses and teachers are undervalued. I certainly think the police force is undervalued. Teachers have the right to strike, though it is circumscribed to a certain extent. Nurses, as has been pointed out, rarely use this right to strike. I sometimes wonder if it is because they are women and less ready to let down weaker sections of society.

We make enormous demands on the Garda. We put them on a pedestal. I disagree with Senator Lady Goulding, because we cannot give the Garda the right to strike. It is not possible. But because we cannot give them this right which other sections of society have it places a much more severe responsibility on Members of the Oireachtas. We must give the force every possible encouragement in terms of money and housing—it is a disgrace that they should have housing problems—and in terms of helping to modernise and vitalise the training system and, most of all, by letting them have the right kind of modern associations. We must encourage a continuing increase in the self-regard of the gardaí themselves, and in their concern for standards. We depend on their standards for a safe and civilised community.

I welcome the Bill because anything which updates the very outmoded machinery concerning the Garda must be welcomed.

Parliamentary Secretary to the Minister for Foreign Affairs (Mr. D. Andrews)

I am taken somewhat by surprise here, but on behalf of the Minister I understand I am to conclude briefly. He specifically asked me to thank the various Senators who paid tribute to him on his appointment as Minister for Justice. He has asked me to thank them for their kind remarks and I also thank those who remarked upon my own appointment.

I should like to congratulate those people who spoke in the Seanad for the first time. I realise how difficult it is to stand up and make one's maiden speech. Nevertheless, the maiden speeches were to the point and brief. This might be adopted as a guideline for future speeches. The content of a speech is not necessarily measured by the length of it but in many instances by its brevity.

The conciliation machinery under the Garda Síochána Bill, 1977, has been well outlined by the Minister in his introductory remarks. I do not think there is any need for me to go over what he has already stated. It is well to place on the record of the House the general unanimity expressed in relation to the work being done by the Garda Síochána. As has been stated, they are a force who in general receive the support of the public and it is proper that they should receive that support. They have the almost unanimous respect of our population, except for a small element in our society who would wish to destroy both the Garda Síochána themselves and the society which the Garda are protecting. It is important to remember that the Garda Síochána remain as an unarmed force. It is proper that that should be so.

No. For the Senator's information, 500 and 500 make 1,000, according to my mathematics.

The matter of the consultants' report was also raised. The problem there is due to staffing problems in the Department. This is a matter which will also be dealt with in the near future. The question of official living accommodation is also the subject of discussion and negotiation under the conciliation and arbitration scheme. The House will agree it is proper that the Garda Síochána should receive the full support of the taxpayer in giving them proper living accommodation. The type of accommodation they will get is the subject of discussion and negotiation under the conciliation and arbitration scheme.

Senator Cooney made the following main points. He paid a tribute to those who have taken part in the negotiations and I have no doubt I speak on behalf of the Minister when I add my own words to the tribute he has already paid in that regard. There was reference to structures for discussion of principles of transfers, promotions and discipline. These are matters which are involved in ongoing discussions.

I am not certain about that. Perhaps the Senator might raise that on another occasion.

An Leas-Chathaoirleach

The Parliamentary Secretary must be allowed to conclude without interruption.

Mrs. Robinson

A number of specific questions were put and if possible we would like to get specific answers to them.

An Leas-Chathaoirleach

The Senator may raise them at the end of the concluding address.

Mr. D. Andrews

The difficulty is that the Minister had to go out and take a very urgent call. I was here in "a wait and-see" role and in the circumstances the Senator will recognise my predicament.

Senator Murphy raised the question of clerical posts in the force. This will fall to be discussed in the consultants' report. The consultants are recommending substantial civilianisation but this will be a matter for discussion with the Commissioner and the representative body.

I understand Senator Cranitch addressed the House as Gaeilge and he raised the question of Garda training. This is a matter which the committee representing Garda management, district justices and the representative bodies are looking at.

Regarding Senator Howard's question, this is a matter of equipment and staff.

On the question of supression of crime the Government are completely committed. The indication by me, on the Minister's behalf that we are inducting 1,000 men into the force will make a significant contribution to the reduction in crime.

On that point, a Leas-Chathaoirleach, I shall conclude and once more thank the Senators for their contributions to this important piece of legislation.

Agreed to take remaining Stages today.

Seanad Éireann debate - Wednesday, 9 Nov 1977