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Seanad Éireann debate -
Wednesday, 3 May 1978

Vol. 88 No. 11

Landlord and Tenant (Ground Rents) Bill, 1977: Fifth Stage.

Question proposed: "That the Bill do now pass".

I raised an important point which the Minister completely overlooked. The Minister for Fisheries promised that he would look into and let me know on Report Stage what the position is. I do not want to let this Bill go through without receiving a definite answer to this question. The proposition I made is that under the provisions of this Bill it is possible that where a lease is granted for the purpose of the erection of a factory, for example, for commercial purposes instead of for the purpose of building dwelling houses if the lessee for one reason or another wishes to get out of his obligations under the lease, all he has to do is to erect a dwelling house, even if there is a covenant in the commercial lease prohibiting the erection of a dwelling house. I have read the Bill several times and it is mind-boggling that that could be a consequence of it. It seems absolutely clear that that could happen. I would ask for a specific answer to that question. The section I speak of is section 2 (3) which reads:

the construction of permanent buildings for use wholly or principally as a dwelling on land which is held under a lease made after the passing of this Act shall render the lease void if the existence of the buildings, as so constructed, immediately before the making of the lease would have rendered the lease void under subsection (1).

Reading it in the context of subsection (1) makes no difference to the fact that it was never intended to be a lease for the purpose of building dwelling houses. It was intended to be a simple commercial lease of which there are hundreds of instances in commercial life. I would ask the Minister to give a specific answer to that.

Certainly, I will.

The only other point is that the Minister for Justice when speaking in the Dáil, and the Minister of State at the Department of Foreign Affairs when speaking here on Second Stage, pointed out that the purpose of the Bill was not merely to ensure the prohibition of the creation of future ground rents but also that:

the purpose of the Bill is to put an end to the leasehold system as far as new houses are concerned and so to ensure that in future owner occupiers of such houses will hold the fee simple,

An Leas-Chathaoirleach

I must ask the Senator for the reference.

It is column 979 of the Official Dáil Report of 7 December 1977. It continues:

that is that they will be the full owners of their property.

This Bill does nothing of the sort; it is farce in that respect. We mentioned on occasions various legal instruments that would in effect get around the provisions of the Bill and in that context I would refer the Minister of State back to the Committee Stage debate in this House where the Minister for Fisheries agreed that the Bill was in that respect grossly unsatisfactory. The Minister said that he had considered the introduction of this Bill before but had decided that it was so difficult or so almost impossible to achieve the purpose, that he saw no point in introducing it. That was back in 1967 when the Landlord and Tenant (Ground Rents) Act was passed, but I have in my hand a document which in effect is a transfer subject to covenants which is being used regularly at present in Dublin obviously with a view to the passing of this Bill and the effect of which is to grant the fee simple subject to covenants. By any standards that is a lease but it is not called a lease; it does not come within the definition of a lease under the 1958 Act on which we rely for a definition of a lease. In effect, there is no difficulty in getting around the provisions of this Bill.

The other and more serious point is that the Bill has dangerous consequences to it—I speak simply as a solicitor when I say that. There are consequences to it that will cost a lot of people money through consulting with lawyers or going to the court as the Minister envisaged earlier in the discussion this afternoon. I would ask the Minister to plead with the Minister for Justice to keep this Bill under review after it becomes law, so that efforts through new legislation will be made to close any loopholes that appear to be causing big problems. Perhaps at some future date we will see legislation to cut out the whole problem of ground rents altogether because it will become apparent in the course of the next few years that developers who lack a social conscience can find ways of getting around this Bill by producing documents like this transfer subject to covenants.

I endorse what Senator Molony has said. The purpose of the Bill, with which we are all in agreement, is to end ground rents. It was decided for technical drafting reasons that the only way to end ground rents was to end leaseholds generally. I accepted that view when I was in office but having debated this Bill and having considered the consequences of ending ground rents by abolishing leases I see that we have devised a very imperfect piece of legislative machinery. It would have been possible to end ground rents by merely making the provision in a lease reserving a rent void. Ground rents would have been caught by that, the other consequences of the lease would have been retained, and we would have avoided the legal consequences which have been exemplified here time after time in the course of this debate. I grant that there is a social argument for the desirability of retaining covenants in leases. These are covenants which are, by their very nature, inherently objectionable, which provoke emotional antagonism on the part of some lessees, but there are many covenants which are for the benefit of lessees, which ensure a high standard of maintenance of property, which consequently work towards maintaining the value of the property.

Having listened to this debate and having read the debate in the other House I have come to the conclusion that the balance of the argument was in favour of abolishing provisions in leases reserving rents while retaining the other provisions of leases. The Government, despite these arguments, have decided to go along with the method of abolishing ground rents by abolishing leases on dwellings altogether. Apart from the arguments I have already mentioned, this is defective legislation because there are too many loopholes available to lawyers under existing law, which permit the retention, in effect, of the covenants which the Government want to abolish as a matter of principle.

There is not much point in having a principle and legislating for it, if that legislation does not close loopholes which are so many and varied that the principle is totally avoided. The nature and extent of these loopholes was conceded by the Minister for Fisheries here, in his comments at columns 863 and 898 of the Official Report of 19 April to the effect that numerous devices are available to lawyers which will permit the continuation of all sorts of restrictive covenants on householders. Once that consequence can come from a Bill the purpose of which is to end covenants the Bill is patently defective. In addition, the Bill has many adverse consequences for various groups of citizens

We gave practical examples of how the Bill will operate in practice. which were not controverted by the Minister on the grounds that they were extreme, unlikely or impossible, because they were patently practical examples of things that can happen in ordinary commercial and legal situations, and we pointed out the adverse consequences that those situations would have for the citizens caught in them. It is a matter of great disappoint-to us that the Minister did not controvert the argument inherent in giving those examples, by telling us that these consequences would not occur. In effect, the Minister accepted that these consequences will happen but the Minister is quite prepared to process legislation through Parliament which by tacit agreement will have adverse consequences on citizens, and refuses to accept amendments which would avoid or diminish substantially those adverse consequences. That is bad legislation. This has been a very disappointing debate. Arguments were not controverted. If arguments were controverted, our amendments deserve to be rejected, but our arguments were not even answered. It was a most inadequate debate from that point of view.

There was a suggestion by Senator Molony that the Minister for Fisheries suggested that the legislation was grossly unsatisfactory. That is just not true. The Minister never made any such remark.

I gave the column reference.

The words "grossly" and "unsatisfactory"?

No, "riddled with loopholes". If a Bill is riddled with loopholes it is grossly unsatisfactory.

I made a real effort not to interrupt the Senator and he should recognise that effort by not interrupting me. Senators Cooney and Molony used emotive language such as, "the dangerous consequences of this legislation".

Adverse consequences.

The simple truth is that the Fianna Fáil Government introduced this legislation as a piece of social legislation to benefit the house purchaser in purchasing a home for himself and his family. The consequence of this legislation is that the house will be his absolutely and that is good legislation. In relation to the suggestion that it is imperfect and is riddled with loopholes, we did not reject the Opposition's amendments out of any sense of malice or ingratitude. We examined closely the amendments proposed by the Opposition, and we found that they did not fit in to bring about the results we want from this legislaton. That is our prerogative. We should not be dismissive of the Opposition, and we do not say that they have no right to put down amendments. That has not been the general tenor of what we have been saying. We have been saying that our legislation as perfected and drafted by us is the right legislation for what we as a Government want to achieve. Only time will tell whether we have achieved what we set out to achieve. That is the reality of our obligation. We feel we have discharged our obligation.

Senator Molony suggested that in some way I had overlooked a point that he had raised during the course of the debate. I apologise to him if he thought that, but I did not do it deliberately. Senator Molony argued that if an industrial site were leased after the Bill had become law, and if the lease contained no prohibition on the construction of a dwelling house that if the lessee for some reason wanted to be free of his involvement in the lease he could erect a dwelling house, rendering the lease void and so escape from his obligations under the lease. The Minister for Fisheries undertook to have that argument examined to see if the provision could be abused in any fashion. My advice is that there is no danger that the provision can be abused. Once the lease is made void possession of the property is recoverable from the lessee. The lease was by definition a ground lease, that is, the buildings were erected and paid for by the lessee, so what the lessor recovers is a property substantially improved by the construction of buildings.

That is just one situation.

What the lessee loses is his investment in those buildings as well as his right to possession of the land.

Would the Minister tell us what the position is?

The lessee is unlikely to do what Senator Molony fears he might do, and if he does the lessor at least will not lose.

If a factory were built on the land beforehand——

An Leas-Chathaoirleach

The Senator may not interrupt the Minister at this stage.

There was one other matter in relation to the 1679 Rathfarnham lease. The lessee can still go ahead, as I understand it, and build the house and buy the fee simple under the 1967 Act.

What if he has not got planning permission?

The Act states that he can and there is nothing I can add to that.

(Interruptions.)

An Leas-Chathaoirleach

I would remind the Senator that interruptions at this stage are out of order. If the Senator wishes to ask a brief question after the Minister is finished he may.

I have answered the Senator. I do not intend, with no disrespect to the House, to engage in any further badinage. We have dealt with the matter effectively at considerable length.

I thank the House for their patience and thank the two Senators for their courtesy.

Can I ask a question?

An Leas-Chathaoirleach

Yes.

What part of the 1967 Act would cure the position with regard to the old lease mentioned by Senator Molony?

I cannot give a specific answer to that type of question. The most civilised way to answer the Senator's question is to depart the Seanad and go down to the Library and look at the 1967 Act where I can point out the section——

The Minister will find that there will have to be a building on it.

——which relates to this historic relic dug up by Senator Molony.

Question put and agreed to.
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