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Seanad Éireann debate -
Thursday, 1 Jun 1978

Vol. 89 No. 5

White Paper on National Development: Motion (Resumed).

Debate resumed on the following motion:
That Seanad Éireann takes note of the Government's White Paper on National Development, 1977-1980.
—(Senator E. Ryan.)

Yesterday evening, shortly before the adjournment of the Seanad, I referred to the section in the White Paper dealing with telecommunications in general and to it being an inadequate paragraph, having regard to the great seriousness of the problem. At the simplest level, in terms of explaining what this is all about, I was not referring to the strike or to the great hardship caused to this country and to our development as a result of the appalling strike that took place but rather to the telecommunications situation that existed before that strike and apparently since that strike. To give a tiny example which illustrates the point, last night while attempting to telephone Mayo, I was on the line to the long-distance operator on four or five different occasions, each time without any reply. I was told at that stage by a friend of mine that there is a number of a supervisor in the telephone directory which one should ring. I rang two or three times and it was engaged every time. Finally, after 30 or 40 minutes, I got a long-distance operator. When he tried to get my number in Westport, he informed me that he could not get through. I asked if he could make a connection through Ballina or Castlebar and he then informed me that all lines were out west of Enfield in a line to Donegal and running west towards somewhere like Galway. It seems that this is a most appalling and critical situation.

In an internal sense, we can live with this system because we know ourselves, we know our own people, but when we are so dependent on the development of exports and of our tourist industry for the future welfare of our people and the development of our economy, for the creation of jobs, the phenomenon which I described is completely and utterly unacceptable and intolerable. Heaven knows, if you have somebody considering the prospects of establishing a manufacturing plant here in many cases the decisions in regard to the location of a factory are often made on subjective grounds rather than on objective grounds. The first impressions of the people who come to pave the way are extremely important. If people coming to Ireland from another country had the experience which I had last night and if it was a question of a fifty-fifty choice between plant being established here and going to Britain or somewhere in western Europe, the experience which I described could well be the deciding factor in this country not getting the investment.

I suggest to the Minister that, looking to the future and looking to development, if there are critical elements in our economy which must be put right, this matter has to be given priority. Even if we let other areas suffer as a result, other areas where the Exchequer is concerned, where funding is concerned, where other infrastructure is concerned, even at the risk of borrowing outside the country, this problem must get priority and must be put right.

When we were in Government and the Minister was Dr. Cruise-O'Brien, there was a massive commitment in terms of capital investment. I am trying to say this in the most apolitical sense. There was a substantial increase in the commitment of the Government to the telecommunications section. Apparently, there is a great deal more work to be done. In the most apolitical sense it seems that successive Governments will need to pull out all stops in this area.

In so far as the organisation of the service is concerned, it seems that much is left to be desired. In certain areas where dynamism and flair are required, it may be necessary to build the structure around the format of a semi-State body rather than of a Government Department. If this was the raison d'être in so many other critical areas it seems logical to follow the same line of thinking for this critical service, which is essentially a business and commercial venture. The country would be much better served if telecommunications was either part of a semi-State body or a combination of a semi-State body with elements of the system handled by private enterprise. It is extremely important and it cannot be sufficiently emphasised.

In the briefest terms, page 47 of the White Paper refers to telephones and the development of the service and the fact that so many exchanges are going to go automatic. Our experience at present is that the greatest difficulty is with the automatic exchanges rather than with the old-fashioned manual ones. In this area it is absolutely critical that something is done.

Looking at the White Paper in global terms, the debate in the Seanad has been a mixture of economic wisdom and politics. It seems inevitable that the debate, to a considerable extent, has been political. Without apology, one has to speak politically about this White Paper because its fundamental weakness is that it followed too closely the Fianna Fáil election manifesto. The manifesto was produced as a political document, the basis for the new Government's economic planning. Presumably if a White Paper is presented and developed with the help of the Department then the basis for it must be the manifesto. Unfortunately, I believe many aspects of the manifesto were not in the ultimate national interest. If they are going to be translated into a White Paper and we are expected to objectively justify a certain line of country, we are going to run into problems.

Speaking politically, we have to take exception to much of the tone of the White Paper because it smacks of a type of fairy tale, hinting that through certain years in our development nothing happened and hinting that in a particular month or year or on a particular day all things began to happen for our betterment. We get this in the introduction in section 1 of the White Paper which reads:

During the last few years, the Irish economy has tended to lose momentum. Employment has fallen substantially; living standards for many have stood still or declined; the private sector has cut back in investment; inflation rates have been higher than in any previous post-war period, wage levels have increased....

We go on to read about the pre-election manifesto and that inflation was substantially above the EEC average without objectively pointing out that we are in the sterling area and that being in the sterling area results in a certain spill-over effect from Britain, which I am sure Deputy O'Donoghue will acknowledge, which is, to an extent, outside the control of any Irish Government. This means that attempting to compare our inflation rate with the average rate for the EEC is a bit invalid without pointing out the British factor.

For these reasons it is no harm to point out that before June of last year the country was in an extremely good shape and to refute what the Tánaiste had to say in the Dáil some months ago when he suggested that he inherited the public finances in extremely bad shape.

I am not one who normally likes to look back or to look at the record, but in the context of a debate which is assuming a political turn and in which suggestions are abroad that the country was badly run up to June of last year, it is necessary to put certain matters into perspective. To start with, during that term in Government we ran into the world recession based on the oil factor, which had the most incredible effect on world economies. Sometimes there is an attempt to suggest that it was a phenomenon that was unique to us. It had the most incredible effect. Despite the appalling affect it had on the western world, this country was kept on an even keel through all of that period with substantial progress in critical areas. There are one or two figures to show the extent of the recovery from that crisis and to show the extent of good government in terms of borrowing which, at one point, had been at a height of £679 million and was reduced up to this time last year to about £500 million. It was reduced from a proportion of GNP of 16.9 in 1975 to 11.5 in 1976. Industrial exports increased from 1975 to 1976 from £820 million to £1,167 million, which is an increase of 42 per cent. In the year to February 1977, as against the year to February 1976, total exports increased by 33 per cent. In December of 1976 it was an increase of 77 per cent on the previous year and in volume an increase of 40 per cent. Exports in total, February 1976 against February 1977, were £178 million as against £118 million, an increase of 60 per cent. Through the period of which I speak, Ireland was one of only two of the OECD countries which had an industrial output increase on the 1974 peak before the crisis.

It seems that these figures of a staggering level of development do not begin to equate with the remarks of some Government spokesmen when they suggest that they inherited this country in a bad shape in June of last year and attempt to tell us that the country was on its knees and that it has now got off the ground. The facts are, in simple terms, during an extremely difficult period in Government, massive increases in agricultural exports, industrial exports, massive increases in manufacturing investment showing an inherent confidence in us by outside interests. At times when we are in the welter of political debate, it is interesting to note that through that period, during which there was strong criticism of the Government's capital programme, there was terrific confidence in investment terms by interests from the United States, Europe and from Japan, which is in total contrast with the unwelcome attempt to portray a different position.

We do not want to look back but are forced to do so in a political debate which does less than justice to the shape of this country when it was inherited by the present Government. We have no alternative other than to make these comments.

Last year we were one of only three EEC countries in which there was a drop in unemployment. In all, the country was in good shape, particularly in circumstances which were unique where security was concerned. The massive security issues raised shortly after we went into Government meant a huge increase in funds for defence and security. For example, the Department of Defence requirement rose from an estimate of £14½ million in 1970 to about £70 million, which was an increase of £60 million in 1976. Against this background and all of these problems there was good government. For that reason we have to reject the political notes and the suggestions to which I referred.

In so far as the details are concerned, we hope that there will be the level of development which the Government want to achieve. They will have the full support of this side of the House for practical measures to achieve this development. We are not going to get into a debate on the philosophy of development or the sector through which we are going to achieve it. We are not going to talk about private enterprise, or the exclusion of it or of public enterprise. We have the blessing of a mixed economy and the approach to development has been pragmatic. It is an area where pragmatism is necessary and where pragmatism should continue to be the rule of the day. Where private enterprise is prepared to take up the options and to do in economic terms the job that needs to be done with the resources that we have, then it is the function of private enterprise to do so.

We have a tremendous range of incentives for development in terms of borrowing facilities, budgetary policy, industrial policy in terms of capital grants. Where private enterprise is not taking up the options in areas where it seems the national interest is being neglected, I for one am all for the State getting involved to get the push on. A pragmatic approach is necessary. Any commonsense approach to development to create the jobs that we need will have my full support.

Whilst we like to be optimistic and whilst it is good to be bullish—one has to be inherently optimistic if one wants to make progress—the White Paper may run into problems in that its optimism may not be realised. It has not spelt out sufficiently well the conditions which will be necessary to achieve the objectives. In some areas where it attempts to forecast, it is on extremely thin ground. For example when we talk about rates of inflation we are at present fortunate in that the rate of inflation is at a relatively satisfactory level in comparison with past years. Again in this area, if we speak politically—there were substantial reductions around the middle of last year—I find it a little difficult to accept and I do not know what the basis is on which the Minister has worked, to talk about inflation projections, for example, to the end of 1979 of a level of 5 per cent, to the end of 1980 of a level of 5 per cent. I hope to God he is right. I would love to see an inflation rate of 5 per cent, or 3 per cent or 2 per cent but my experience suggests to me that he may well be wrong.

I say that for a number of different reasons. To start with, an island such as ours, with an open economy, is so dependent on other countries. The factor of our inter-dependence is so overwhelming today that many of the factors which will determine our inflation rate will not be internal; they are going to be external. In so far as we can influence them, good luck to the Minister. I hope that policy works as far as we can influence the figures. But there are these external factors, external factors to do with imports, external factors to do with EEC policy, external factors, which I pointed out before, having to do with the fact that we are in the sterling area which, on balance, is the right policy at least for the time being. But even though it may be the right policy there is this drag effect again outside over which no Government of this Country will have control. Should conditions turn sour in Britain, or should the inflation rate start increasing again—and indeed, in recent weeks there are suggestions that inflation is increasing already and could increase over the next few months—then the spill-over effect here will be substantial. This has to be said.

Additionally, there is another factor of inflation which is supposedly internal, over which, in theory, we may have control but over which in effect we have no control. I am talking about agricultural policy under the common agricultural policy of the EEC. As a country with a huge proportion of its workforce and people engaged in farming and agriculture, naturally any policy of food support, subsidisation, at the highest possible level within the EEC is good for this country and must be supported by successive Governments. Having said that, where we get major benefits in price reviews in the EEC annually, the effect of that is a substantial increase for the farming community, which we support completely. One of the net effects of this increase is that whilst it is certainly to the benefit of the farming community and to the overall benefit of this country—because of the huge proportion of farmers—it is an inflationary pressure, in that in urban areas the effects of food prices are going to be felt. Therefore, it could be termed a part of internal inflation but in effect it is an outside pressure through EEC policy which, of course, we support. I quibble with being optimistic to the extent of suggesting 5 per cent inflation rate in 1979 and 1980. I am a Jekyll and Hyde on this issue. I hope the Minister is right, I hope the Government is right but frankly I cannot see a realistic basis for this assumption.

In the area of financing and balance of payments deficits I remember a period through the oil crisis and the economic crisis that rent Western Europe and the developed world. I remember successive debates in the Dáil at that time, when the Government borrowed substantially outside this country for obvious very good reasons. We were berated by the then Opposition for our profligate spending and borrowing and about the evils of foreign borrowing. It seems a little bit odd that when we are now on a relatively even keel again, when the crisis is over—and one adopts certain measures in crisis situations entirely different from those which would be applied in normal times, we are finding that, in terms of finance, if there is to be consistency amongst spokesmen of the present Government we are simply running wild; we are talking about a current deficit balance of payments in 1977 of £200 million, 4 per cent of GNP rising to over £500 million in 1980, 6¼ per cent of GNP, to which Senator Whitaker referred in his speech on the economy addressing himself to this paper. Additionally, we are talking of a borrowing requirement of over £800 million; current deficit double the £200 million of 1977. We had more recently an admission by the Taoiseach of the risks of borrowing, the necessity to control the balance of payments. There is apparently now a change in attitude which frankly I welcome because change if it is good is desirable despite past policy. There is apparently now an admission that spending must be contained. Certainly we are all for spending in the productive sectors of this economy, in the prime productive centres of agriculture, industry, tourism, resource development, mining, in all of these areas. But when we get into areas other than the productive ones if we are going to push ourselves to fuel our economy by borrowing outside this country and within the country for non-productive purposes we are going the wrong way about running this country.

I support Senator Whitaker in his views about unemployment assistance, unemployment benefit and what is popularly known in this country as the dole. I will try to be non-political in airing my views about this, which I aired successive times in the Dáil when I was a Member of it when my party was involved in government. It seems to me criminal that with such a large number of people unemployed in the country, and having regard to the backwardness of this country in infrastructural development—in roads, in sewerage schemes, in minor drainage relief schemes, in roads of different categories, in bog development, the necessity of building roads into bogs—that against a background such as that, with such a retarded level of development, especially in many parts of rural Ireland, that we have this incredible phenomenon of huge numbers of people nominally on an unemployed list drawing State benefits every week and living in the centre of country where work can be done but is not being done, where the energy and the manpower is there to do it. I have not seen a Government in this country yet tackle this issue head-on. It may be for political reasons; it may be fear, a natural fear that politically it would be unpopular and that it might lead to a great deal of loss of favour politically. I do not accept this for one minute. My views are very simple on this. Certainly we have a country with a high level of unemployment. Social assistance is necessary of course in an enlightened state. I support very fully the payments to these people who do not have work. But they are maligned to far too great an extent, in the sense that the people who have not examined this issue think that people such as these are simply lazy people who have no interest in working. I know from my own experience living where I live in Mayo, active on the western seaboard and generally in the west, that nothing could be further from the truth. It has been our experience, and the experience of many others involved in the west, that if there is the least opportunity of a decent job, with a decent return, with a reasonably human wage people will work and will work extremely well. We have the anomaly that from areas of Mayo people, in some cases, might not work very hard when they are there because their land might be limited to ten acres or 15 acres and there is not the incentive to do anything, but many of these people when they go to Peterborough in England to work at the beet, or when they go down to Cork to work at the beet, or when they go to Scotland, or to the buildings in England, will work as well as anybody in this world. They are being most unfairly criticised in many cases.

A large measure of the blame for what is happening must be put at the feet of the Government. Lest the Minister might think I am being narrow I am not talking about the present Government; I am talking about successive Governments and successive administrations in this country. If there is this fear, from a political or a voting point of view that nothing can be done and if this is the reason, it is not good enough. But it seems to me that we can only begin to malign these people and we can only begin to speak critically of them if government, in the broadest sense has developed work schemes, enlightened work schemes, under which the bogs will be drained, the roads will be opened up, the smaller roads will be repaired, under which simple little piers and certain amenities are built under a system where what is paid out in vast sums by the State at present is merely supplemented by perhaps 50 per cent or 100 per cent to get an enormous return in benefit for the capital expended.

Of course, in so far as the spirit of man is concerned, there is going to be a most remarkable achievement because, instead of the appalling factor of dole—where there is a married man with five or six children living in poor circumstances, drawing his money every week; the shame of many proud people going back to their children because they do not have work and because they cannot draw money for a decent day's work is the most appalling thing—the lifting of the spirit of people would be a major effect of this. I would urge the Minister, in the strongest possible terms—and if he can persuade his colleagues I would be the first to give him the credit for doing so—that it is an area crying out for justice and leadership. The blame does not lie with these people in crying out for government. It seems to me that, in the present circumstances—with the relative crisis we have here with the unemployment register, the school-leavers and all that goes with them—this is an area where there is immense scope which will catch our people's enthusiasm in the broader sense, if implemented. I would direct the Minister to look at this more closely.

Again if I could speak regionally, we note that this plan is also the basis officially to meet the country's obligations under the EEC Regulation 724/75 establishing a European Regional Development Fund. This is the formal statement on which Ireland will be paid. One of the objections I have to the plan—and it might be argued that it is not the function of the plan to speak along the lines I would like to see it speaking—is entirely national; there is not any attempt to speak seriously about regional issues or policy. If this White Paper is the basis for this country's regional policy, as seen by the EEC, it is a non-entity because there is not the beginning of a regional policy contained withing the document, and I find that unsatisfactory.

Many years ago when the report on full employment was issued about which there was a great deal of debate in the country at the time, is so far as the west was concerned, one of the great weaknesses in that report was the fact that it spoke in a total macro-sense. There was no attempt made to look at regional issues or to suggest where jobs were going to be created, where they were going to be lost; where unemployment was going to be high or where it was going to be minimal. In that sense it did not allow for the mobility of people or whether or not people in Mayo or Sligo would have to emigrate to Cork or to Dublin for work, or indeed outside this country. It spoke entirely globally without any attempt to look at the regional issues. The result was that we had this academic debate on full employment, looking at an issue entirely nationally, when we had festering sores within the country, particularly west of the Shannon, in three or four counties, with the most appalling and frightening levels of emigration throughout this period when we spoke nationally without attempting to quantify the regions. We need to do more. I do not know whether the Green Paper will refer to such regional issues but certainly if this White Paper is the basis of a regional policy it is a non-issue.

The Department of the Public Service, when we were in government, was working on the Government's decision, in principle, to establish a western development board, a decision which has been rescinded by the present Government. But, in addition to looking at and teasing out the issues concerned with the development of this board and the necessary negotiations between all the Departments of this State, it was concerned also with the decision of the Government to look at the sub-national regional needs of the entire country, namely, regional policy at a fundamental level, looking at the country in its entirety rather than simply looking at the west and south-east issues, south-west the midlands, the north-west, west and Dublin. We will have to develop certain autonomous centres within the regions of this country if there is to be a true regional policy because what purports to be a regional policy at present and for a number of years has been a misnomer. We have had a situation in which many semi-State bodies are involved regionally but not in the truest regional sense. What we have is merely a number of Government Departments and semi-State bodies, with headquarters in the city and with branch offices in various towns or cities throughout the country. They have each gone their own way with what they define as their regional policy and they have each designated their regions. The single most difficult issue is the fact that there is an overlapping of their boundaries. Where Bord Fáilte goes into one region linking two or three counties, the IDA goes somewhere else, regional education goes somewhere else, technological education, tourist regions, there is this appalling overlapping. The result of it is that to the man living in Roscommon, or living in West Cork, he does not have this identity with the region because in some cases his house might be in about five different regions of different bodies and different organisations. I am convinced that the policy we had adopted, if implemented—under which four or five counties in the instance we were speaking of, and we were speaking of Connacht and Donegal, that the linking of these together and the insisting that all semi-State bodies involved in this region harmonise their boundaries, to start with, giving these major semi-State bodies representation on the boards to be established linking it all together for political effect and for the cutting out of red tape by making it responsible to a Minister—would have been an excellent development.

I would like to refer to the second section that was being looked at in the Department of the Public Service. This was looking not just at the western development board issue but at what was termed the sub-national regional needs of the country. To the best of my knowledge the western development board idea has been scrapped but the other one has not been. I attempted to get information from the Department a couple of months ago. I was told it was being considered but that no decision had been made whether to continue this investigation into sub-national regional needs or whether to scrap it. Perhaps the Minister will enlighten us on Government views in this regional area. Frankly, I am not concerned with labels or names whether the name of the body to be established in my part of the country is the western development board—call it what you will—if the present Government wants a different name if we can work fundamentally towards the development of an autonomous structure under which much of the power and the decision-making concerning the regions, subject to suitable guidelines, and responsible to a Government Minister, particularly necessary, so that the Government of the day is at least in full control of the position, that, to me, is the simplest and best model. Starting west of the Shannon is very sensible because, if one looks at this country in the broadest of terms, whilst we have had major developments in recent years, whilst we have had substantial increases in the level of agricultural income in so many other ways, the west is still that part of this country which is way behind in its level of development and in its per capita income.

Additionally, when we joined the EEC, regional policy was seen to be the instrument by which the west could be helped to the greatest extent possible. Regional policy has not been at all what had been expected; it is but a fraction of what had been expected in this area for so many factors, of which we are aware. When we talk to EEC people about regional policy and of our dissatisfaction they say to us: yes, regional policy may not be funded all that well but at least the common agricultural policy is really an instrument of regional policy. But the weakness in common agricultural policy, being an instrument of regional policy, is that the spread is not going into the right places. I am all for the common agricultural policy and for the major extent of subsidisation of our farmers of any size, type or description. I am all for massive support in the milk areas but the facts of life are that if one looks at one's common agricultural policy, at where the funds coming from the EEC are going one finds they are going, to a very large extent, into the Golden Vale, into the south-east, into the wealthiest farmlands in the country for reasons that have to do with productivity, farm size, traditions and many other factors. I do not want to be misunderstood; I am completely in favour of such subsidisation and of the subsidies going into the areas where the extensive farming is done. At the same time I want to say that suggestions that the common agricultural policy is an instrument of regional policy is unacceptable.

Looking at Connacht again, at counties such as Donegal, parts of Cavan and Longford, the proportion of common agricultural policy funding going into these places is minimal compared to the rest of the country. The regional policy commitment has been unsatisfactory. I merely want to point out that despite the better developments in the west in recent years, despite the increase in agricultural income, despite the fact that many international companies of repute, looking objectively at this country, consider the west the best place for this development at present, despite all these factors, we started from an extremely low base and there are still many critical problems and vast infrastructural hold-ups. In County Mayo there are still vast numbers of miles of untarred roads. Therefore, the west does need special treatment.

Looking at a regional policy or the development of regional units around this country, it seems to me that the first model which should be developed is the west. If you start there, you can then begin to model the rest of the country when you look at the administrative procedures, how they have worked or have not worked. That is important.

I should like to compliment the Taoiseach on his recent visit to the United States. It relates to the economy and to this topic for so many different reasons. Historically, one of the flaws in national development has been that we did not utilise our links in the United States to a fraction of the extent to which we might have done to our betterment. We have had this incredible phenomenon of a country of 3,000,000 people which has the most immense influence in the United States of America, an influence that runs through the political structures, business community, that runs through the sentiment and the myths of all people. We have this most unusual position in which people of all hues, colours, religions and races like to be Irish on St. Patrick's Day. It seems to me that we have not capitalised on it sufficiently. Indeed, in the early stages of industrial development here it was neglected to the most appalling extent. When governments here were claiming credit for the work they were doing the marketing job was not being done. During the vast pouring of US funds into industrial investment in Europe in the fifties we had this incredible situation in which the Irish Government, through the Irish Industrial Development Authority, had one office only originally in the entire United States. This was during an era when a magnificent job was being done by the British consuls throughout the American Continent and which resulted in major developments in Scotland, Northern Ireland and on the mainland of Britain, at a time when we did not get our share of it. It is a fact of life. However, I think the Taoiseach is very aware of the American dimension. Obviously he has got the ear of people like "Tip" O'Neill, Kennedy and others. It seems to me, from reading the reports, that he did an excellent job in the interests of this country when he was there last week. It is particularly important that he continues to press US Government authorities in so far as fiscal policy in the United States taxation policy is concerned where American company profits are concerned. Having regard to the huge level of investment in this country, in fact, the unhealthy huge proportion of investment coming in from the United States any dramatic changes in American taxation policy could have similarly dramatic effects, in a downward sense, on the level of American investment here.

We are with the Taoiseach completely of course, in so far as the Northern issue is concerned. It is very significant that through the work of people like John Hume in particular, and others politically, including the Leader of my own party, that there is today—principally through the influencing of the major Irish-American political figures and their briefing in a proper sense on the issue—a much greater acceptance within the United States, a much greater awareness of the consensus there is politically within this country on the Northern Ireland issue. This is most welcome and needs to continue to be stressed.

I note the White Paper's remarks on borrowing and the fact that borrowing will have to be reduced 10.5 per cent of GNP in 1979 and 8 per cent in 1980. I support the necessity for the reduction in borrowing but against a background of inflated hopes and inflated spending it will be rather difficult.

Reverting to the EEC and the question of negotiations with Greece, Portugal and Spain, which is relevant to this economy because of the possible dangers to the country, I welcome the apparent attitude within the Department of Foreign Affairs that we need to be very wary where the admission of Greece, Portugal and Spain is concerned. In a political sense, in terms of European unity and in the sense that the weak democracies in these countries can be supported through involvement in the EEC, I fully support their entry. But the major concern of this country has to be that we are, of the Nine, the least-developed at present, among some of the wealthiest countries in the world and the introduction of Greece, Portugal and Spain—with the level of underdevelopment in their economies, with the agricultural nature of many of their economies and their lack of infrastructural development—will put immense pressures on the sources of funds through which we have been relatively successful, through the social area, through the common agricultural policy and regional policy. We have been dissatisfied with regional policy until now. Unless there is going to be a major commitment by the Germans, French and English in areas such as this there are considerable risks to this country in so far as their entry is concerned. I support the Government in looking at this very closely to see that our interests are protected.

I also support the Government in their attempt to get people to buy Irish because the fuelling of our economy at present and the dangers that this will lead to colossal increases in imports is very disturbing. Despite the attempts made by this and the last Government to get people to buy Irish goods the campaign is not working to the extent that it should be working. There is a lack of the right spirit in certain trading quarters where, in some circumstances, it is very difficult even to buy Irish goods if you try to do so. In some cases, at store level, not enough practical patriotism is being shown. I know instances of people going into shops in certain areas of activity where frankly it is difficult to get Irish-made goods. This should not be the case. Better practical patriotism in this area should be expected if there is any spirit in this country. It is easy to blame the general public. But, in the first instance, if they cannot even be shown what is made in this country, even in comparison with foreign goods, they can hardly be expected to buy them. It is appalling that, in so many circumstances, the choice in so many stores is limited to foreign goods without Irish goods being shown even in parallel with these others. It is quite unacceptable.

Finally, when all is said and done, whether it be this Government, the last or any government, unless we develop national traits of discipline, hard work and a little bit more frugality we are not going to succeed. If we look at the Japanese miracle we find that it is not really a miracle. What happened in Japan in recent years has been that while we have been pursuing a type of leisure society they have not budged since World War II, and they are still working in Japan today, in many cases, six days a week or, at the very least, five-and-a-half days a week, and they are being modest in their demands. Unless there is that type of acceptance of that situation in this country we are going to face continuing difficulties.

With the vast numbers who will leave our schools this summer and who will have to face a critical situation, while the Government may speak about job creation the unemployment list is not being reduced to the extent to which it might have been expected. At 1 July last year the live register stood at 109,000. At the moment it is about 104,000, 5,000 less a year later, which is not living up to the promises of the Government. But in addition to that we are on the brink of vast numbers of young people leaving school, and of the obvious danger of disillusionment and sadness that it will bring. The Government may need to think a bit further in terms of employing people by introducing even some type of military service—"military service" might be too strong a word to use, perhaps some type of adventure service.

To keep up the spirit of our young people in particular and to stop disillusionment setting in, some radical measures in that area would be welcome. They would certainly have my support.

Every Senator, irrespective of where he or she sits in this House, in his or her heart regards this White Paper as an excellent document. One of the proofs of that is the excellent debate, the excellent contributions we have had. Not all of the contributions were on the same level, however, because we had a fair amount of cynicism expressed, and arguments were introduced that had nothing at all to do with the White Paper and the philosophy enshrined therein.

Cynicism will not get us anywhere. The cynic will never achieve anything, and in the matter of getting our economic priorities right and dealing with the twin evils of unemployment and inflation, the whole-hearted effort and co-operation of every sector of the community will be required, because the task facing the whole range of humanity in this island, the task facing us all is, of mammoth proportions.

At the end of the 1960s it was true to say that emigration had been, so to speak, licked and we were on an upward surge. Then changes took place—world recession, change of Government and so on. Now we have a Government who are determined to deal with these problems in a whole-hearted way and to dedicate themselves to the solution, but a new factor has come in, that is that 48.3 per cent of our population are now under the age of 25, practically half of the population of this State. That creates further problems that were not foreseen a few years ago, and that means more and more jobs must be created.

It was disappointing for most Senators to listen to arguments being manufactured for or against activity in the public sector or the private sector. That has nothing at all to do with it. The object of this White Paper is to show that the Government have in mind using every possible means at this disposal to cure those two ills. It states quite distinctly at page 11:

The main object of this White Paper is to set out the Government's intentions for the second phase of development. It isolates crucial issues, indicates as clearly as can be done at this stage the measures proposed to deal with them and the broad results expected.

This sentence is very important and it is a pity many of our speakers—not any of those who spoke today—had not read this carefully before they spoke.

The emphasis of the White Paper is on the Government's contribution to overcome many of the problems facing the economy. It is clear that Government measures cannot on their own secure the results that are required—all sectors of the community must make their contribution if success is to be achieved. That is spelled out very clearly. It is a matter for each and every one of us in this State to do his or her best to see that success will be achieved because, if we do not, what faces us is total chaos, total disaster, and if the private sector cannot produce the results or if the public sector cannot produce the results, further steps must be taken. That is written in here in a further statement:

Because such support may not always be coming, forthcoming at the pace or in the form envisaged, and because other assumptions underlying Government action, e.g., world trading conditions and movements in external prices, might not be confirmed by events, the proposed forms of Government action have to be conditional. The programme of action will, therefore, be reviewed annually in the light of the results achieved.

That is a fair statement. The job before the Government is of collosal dimensions. It will require the goodwill and cooperation of everybody not alone in this House but throughout the country if success is to be achieved.

A number of Senators spoke at length on some of the things I had in mind to speak on and I will not repeat because they put their fingers on what I had in mind. I refer in particular to the Buy Irish campaign, dealt with so excellently this morning by Senator Staunton. This morning on my way to the House I called to a certain store not two miles from here. I was interested in a certain garment for the summer and all I could see on the tray before me were made in England or made in Israel. I walked out of the shop utterly disappointed and dejected.

It is extraordinary that in spite of the campaign to buy Irish, and it is an excellent campaign, we still can go into stores in the capital of Ireland and cannot find, unless we search very diligently and go to the trouble of making inquiries, garments made in our own country. It is an extraordinary state of affairs and I do not know how it is to be solved. I suppose we must build up our resistance to these things and make a nuisance of ourselves going through these stores demanding Irish goods the whole time. It has been proved quite satisfactorily that if we did show a slight swing in favour of home manufactured goods we would go a long way towards increasing employment for our people.

There are one or two points I would like to make which I do not think have been touched on so far. They concern small industry. The emphasis has been on major industries. However, I always felt that ten industries each employing 100 people is a far better and more satisfactory state of affairs than one industry employing 1,000. Even ten industries employing ten people each is far more satisfactory than one industry employing 100 because you will have more of the family feeling in the small industries. You will have more efficiency, more dedication and more interest in what goes on.

That leads me on to my main point, and if I can get this point across to the exclusion of everything else I will be very happy. Where have all our tradesmen gone? More and more people seem to be concentrating on white collar jobs in spite of all that has been said and done. A number of years ago, especially when I was a little lad growing up, every parish in my part of the county had three or four stonemasons, three or four carpenters, a couple of blacksmiths and so on. They were the trades that were prominent in those days. Now it is very, very difficult to get a tradesman in any parish. Many of them have secured employment with builders, construction firms and so on. There is a place for three or four masons, plumbers, decorators and so on in every parish. There is a very good living for those who take up these trades.

I have a particular interest in this because my father, God rest him, was a tradesman, a stonemason. There is a whole lore as far as tradespeople are concerned in this country. The weaver, the carpenter, the tailor, some of these people have been almost legendary. It would have helped considerably to make a more contented people if we had more tradespeople, tradesmen and tradeswomen, because I know quite a number of ladies who earn a good living as decorators and they are very happy. It would relieve the pressure on those people who concentrate on white collar work. Anything that could be done should be done to encourage people to take up trades.

The second point I would like to make is in connection with education. That is referred to on page 56 of the White Paper. An omission would be the using of the Department of Education and the schools to promote practical patriotism as far as buying Irish is concerned, and practical patriotism as far as choice of careers is concerned—if we could stop this trend of having to depend on employment in factories and so on and try to get more independence of mind and suggest to the young people growing up to start their own industries, to learn the know-how and then to start their own industries, their own activities or to take up their own trades. When I was going to school we had some excellent textbooks in which we were admonished to buy Irish, and we were given all the reasons why, and we studied those things. We had in our textbooks, in our readers in the national schools, excellent lessons on turf development, the Shannon Scheme, its history, how it came about, and fisheries. It aroused our interest in these things, and the sooner that is done in a person's life the better. I was very glad to see in the White Paper a reference to the Gaeltacht, ag leathanach 39:

The Government are committed to promoting the economic, social and cultural welfare of the Gaeltacht areas and to achieving full employment in those areas as quickly as possible. Gaeltacht communities will be encouraged to take an active part in their own affairs, and Udarás na Gaeltacht will be established in 1978.

Is maith an scéal é sin. Thar aon áit eile den tír, is ceart cabhair a thabhairt do mhuintir na Gaeltachta. Sí an Ghaeltacht foinse ár gcultúir, agus má éagann an Ghaeltacht, agus le cúnamh Dé ní éagfaidh, tig linn a rá go bhfuil scrios déanta againn. Ná bíodh sé sin le rá ag muintir ár linne. Cuireann sé anáthas orm an troid sin a fheiceáil anseo agus tá súil agam go ndéanfar beart dá réir.

Finally I will draw Senators' attention to the very last paragraph on page 69:

The emphasis on this paper has been placed on the evils of unemployment and inflation because these are the most urgent issues confronting the nation in the economic and social sphere. The defeat of these twin evils would not alone strengthen the economic base of our society. It would also represent a major step forward in the realm of social justice. These must be the first battles to be fought and won.

It is up to us to fight the good fight and to ensure that the battle will be won, because in the winning of that battle lies our survival as an economic unit.

I welcome the opportunity to debate the proposals in the Government White Paper and the economic consequences of the Government's strategy. I should like to begin with the most serious problem and the greatest challenge facing us, the high unemployment figure in Ireland. We know that it is the highest unemployment rate in the European Community and naturally, therefore, it must be a focal point in any assessment of the performance of the Government.

I am forced to conclude, looking at various statements made by the two economic Ministers, the Minister here present and the Minister for Finance, that the Government are attempting to generate some confusion as to their targets in relation to employment. I should like to take this opportunity, therefore, to remind the House very clearly of the targets contained both in the election manifesto and the White Paper. In both documents it is stated very clearly that the Government's target was first of all to reduce unemployment by 5,000 between taking office in July and the end of 1977, and second, to reduce unemployment by a further 20,000 by the end of 1978. The only way in which this can be visible is that it should result in a live register figure of between 85,000 and 90,000 at the end of this year, in December 1978—allowing for seasonal adjustments. That is the key figure if the Government are to meet their targets.

However, there seems to be increasing evidence of the early optimism of the Government faltering on this score and there has been a subtle change in language. The emphasis seems to be shifting from "reducing unemployment" to "job creation", and the Minister for Economic Planning and Development has now switched to a focus on "job creation" targets. This is deceptive and potentially confusing, because the difference between job creation and reduction in unemployment—which was the original Government commitment in the manifesto and the White Paper—is that a job creation figure does not take account either of redundancies or of increases in the labour force.

As I understand it, we can expect an increase of 11,000 to 15,000 in our labour force annually and also we have to take account of redundancies in Irish industry. Therefore, we have to be very careful to ensure that the Government will stick to their original commitment of reducing unemployment by, specific figures and do not switch to different language, talking about job creation figures. I should be greatful if the Minister, in his reply to this debate, would speak in terms of Government achievement in reduction of unemployment and the Government's further commitment and strategy to reduce unemployment, and does not confuse us with his eloquent economic fluency talking about job creation targets.

Looking at the targets for a reduction of unemployment, it is quite difficult to monitor the Government's progress to date, and again I should welcome very clear figures and statements by the Minister in his reply. For example, in the case of the 5,000 jobs which were to be created by the special youth employment schemes, I have made some inquiry and there seems to be considerable disappointment from youth groups and from those with expectations from the scheme. It does not seem to have got off the ground very well, and I would welcome an up to date assessment by the Minister of the progress of the youth employment scheme. Perhaps he has some figures from the Manpower Service which could be of assistance to us.

Secondly, although by the end of 1977, 4,700 extra jobs had been created in the public service, it appears that only 2,000 had actually been filled. Again, I would welcome specific figures from the Minister on the actual number of public service posts filled by June 1978. Indeed, could the Minister specify—just one month away from the target of 12 months—how many of the 20,000 jobs which were to be filled by direct Government action have in fact been filled? This would be helpful in clarifying some of the confusion.

I would like to turn to the prospects of the Government's strategy achieving their employment targets over the next three years. In order to meet their employment production targets of an annual average of 25,000 a year, between 1978 to 1980, the White Paper postulates an annual average net increase of 29,000 in non-agricultural employment. This is what the projection is. Of this, there is to be an average net increase of 15,000 in manufacturing employment. Obviously this is a target we would all like to see achieved. It would be extremely good for the economy if 13,500 new jobs were created in manufacturing industry each year between 1978 to 1980.

But I think we have to relate that target to the reality of what happened in the seventies—or even in the boom years of the sixties. During the boom period of the sixties, the average annual increase in net manufacturing employment was only about 3,000. In the seventies the picture had even worsened in that it fluctuates more. I will give the various years and the net change in manufacturing industry employment: in 1971 it was minus 3,400; in 1972, plus 3,900; in 1973, plus 7,900; in 1974, minus 3,500; in 1975, minus 14,900; in 1976, plus 5,400; in 1977, plus 6,500. The Government is trying to move from a plus 6,500 in 1977 to its annual net increase of 13,500 for 1978, 1979 and 1980. They are asking us to believe that the kind of strategy and incentives in the budget and in the Finance Bill will change the whole pattern of job creation in the manufacturing industry and will more than double it.

The main plank of the Government's strategy is to increase private sector production by putting more money in people's pockets, to generate increased consumer demand which is to result in this very substantial increase in net employment in manufacturing industry in Ireland. There are very serious questions about the effectiveness of this strategy. It is not a necessary consequence of increased consumer spending that there would be very significant job creation. We know too well—and we debated this recently in the Seanad—that increased consumer spending can mean a rise in demand for imports. Therefore, there is strong emphasis on the "Buy Irish" campaign—and I support any emphasis that there might be. But it is not as easy as that to switch people around in a dramatic way from a desire to spend money on imports; nor is it necessarily automatic that Irish industry will be ready to produce at a level to meet the demand.

The reaction of industry itself is another of the worries. These are not just personal reflections of somebody trying to assess the situation. There is grave concern in manufacturing industry itself about the possibility of reaching the employment targets which are set out in the White Paper. For example, the Confederation of Irish Industry carried out a survey which was published in February last. One of the questions which was put to member firms of the CII in that survey was as follows: "What employment increase would be associated with actions to increase output by up to 30 per cent over the next two years?" That is a very optimistic scenario. If there was a 30 per cent increase in production, what employment increase would the firm foresee? The response, as described by the CII, and I quote, was as follows:

Twenty-two per cent of firms saw no employment increase ensuing, but the main concentration of employment increase was in the 5 to 14 per cent range—56.1 per cent of firms. The implication of the distribution of anticipated employment increases would suggest that many firms see scope for achieving output increases from increased productivity rather than increased employment.

This survey seems to reveal, and this is worrying many people, that increased productivity and increased output does not necessarily mean a significant—indeed an unprecedented— increase in employment in manufacturing industry.

A very serious question has to be asked about the Government's strategy, because the significance of this survey is that if the Government's target of a net increase in manufacturing employment of 13,500 is to be met in the years 1978 to 1980, then manufacturing output will need to be increased on an average each year by about 20 per cent. But the output increase in 1977 was only 8 per cent. So there would have to be a very significant jump in output and even then there is no guarantee that there will be substantial increases in employment in manufacturing industry. We know the problem: that manufacturing industry would view labour costs as one of the difficulties in trying to increase competitiveness in exports, and the resulting tendency would be to replace people with new technology. There is a drift away from industrial jobs to some extent in this country and it is very evident in the more developed economies of the European Community. Just as there was a movement away from the land which was perceived and which has been a constant factor in recent years, so I believe there is a net drift away from industrial jobs because of the fact that technology can replace people and can replace them at a more efficient and productive level.

There are, therefore, very worrying aspects of the Government's unemployment reduction targets, and of their emphasis on the private sector providing so many of the jobs and doing so by maintaining an output level and targets of job creation which are unprecedented in Ireland.

I would like to turn now to an article published in the April 1978 issue of Magill by a well-regarded economist in Ireland, Paddy Geary, under the heading “An Analysis of the Government's Strategy: How Fianna Fáil's Economic Policies Cannot get this Country Moving Again”. He begins by an analysis of the manifesto and goes on to consider the White Paper as follows:

The White Paper was essentially a more detailed presentation of the sections of the manifesto dealing with economic policy. The need for a pump-priming exercise was again asserted—this was described as the first phase of the Government's development programme and consisted of various measures adopted in 1977 and the budget. A number of longer term objectives were defined most of them closely related to the main objective of increasing employment.

In this regard the quantitative targets which appeared in the manifesto were reasserted. They were an average annual reduction in the numbers out of work (25,000 in the years 1978-1980) and a growth rate of real GNP of 7 per cent per annum over the same period. There was a much greater acknowledgement of the existence of constraints which might affect the achievement of the targets than was evident in the manifesto; whether or not it was adequate can be judged by the policy instruments which have so far been adopted.

He then examines the various policy instruments, the incentives for greater consumer spending, tax reliefs, the lifting of rates from private houses, the removal of car tax, and so on. He continues:

The overall effect of these and other budget policies was to produce a current budget deficit of £405 million. When borrowing for capital purposes is added, the total government borrowing requirements for 1978 amounts to £821 million or 13 per cent of GNP on the assumption of a 7 per cent growth rate this year. The corresponding figures for 1977 were £545 million—10.2 per cent of GNP.

He goes on a little later to point to a very difficult constraint on the Government in the immediate future. I would welcome the Minister's response in due course as to how he foresees the development of Government strategy in this area. Paddy Geary states:

The Government is committed to a reduction in its borrowing requirements to 10.5 per cent of GNP in 1979 and to 8 per cent in 1980; continued resort to a policy of expanding public sector employment under such circumstances would have interesting implications for taxation.

The Government therefore expects employment in the private sector to grow sufficiently rapidly to meet its unemployment target. There is no precedent in the post-war Irish economy for such sustained economic growth. For example, in the period 1968 to 1973, the average annual growth rate of employment in the manufacturing industry was about 2 per cent, compared with 5.9 per cent envisaged for 1978-1980 in the White Paper. World trade in manufacturing grew by almost 10 per cent per annum in that period, a faster growth rate than is expected in the next three years.

Thus, even under favourable external circumstances the achieved growth rate of employment in manufacturing was one-third of the Government's present target. The same type of arguments may be made in connection with the target of 7 per cent GNP growth for a three-year period; this, too, lacks a historical precedent in the post-war economy.

There are also reasons for doubting whether the policies of the Government will achieve the 1978 targets, much less the objective of sustained growth.

That was a very critical article and in fairness to the Minister, I must put at least a little of his reply to it, published in the May issue of Magill, on the record. I want to quote the passage that leads on to my next main question about Government strategy. In his reply, under the heading “The Bold O'Donoghue”, the Minister said:

I quite accept that it is not possible to engage again and again in major job creation through public sector employment. We are committed to reducing the borrowing rate and therefore it is not possible for us to inject more funds into the public sector. However there is no question of reducing public sector employment in order to meet our borrowing rate targets. I agree this means either more taxation or public expenditure cuts or at least restraint in the non-job creating areas, which are social welfare, health, housing and education. This is already hinted at in the Government's White Paper where it was stated: "It is the Government's intention to adopt the policy changes necessary to moderate the overall growth of public expenditure in 1979 and onwards".

Again I agree that the challenge to the private sector is unprecedented, that it will require a trebling of the growth rate here over the next few years. But we are confident that this will occur.

I will allow the Minister to develop that theme of optimism in his reply, if he wishes. I would like him to clarify what he means by the possibility of "either public expenditure cuts or at least restraints in the non-job creating areas which are social welfare, health, housing and education". If this is part of the overall Government strategy, then we are getting the worst of all worlds, because the incentives that the Government have given since July have favoured the better-off, have been incentives to those who have already got jobs: they have got tax reliefs; rates off private houses; the taxation off motor cars; farmers got substantial increases from the farm prices on which they are not being taxed and the wealth tax will be abolished. They are all substantial incentives to the better-off in our society. The major social problem is that the disparity between the better-off and the poor and the deprived has grown worse in the last few years. The last thing the Government should contemplate is cutbacks in public expenditure or restraints which would increase that disparity.

A very good indication of bad distribution of income and wealth in our society is revealed in a study carried out by the Central Bank economist, Brian Nolan, and which was analysed in the issue of Liberty of February 1978. I should like to quote briefly from that analysis. It stated:

More than 75 per cent of total household gross income (i.e. direct income and State transfer benefits) went to 50 per cent of households in the Republic in 1973 thus leaving less than one-quarter to be distributed among the other 50 per cent.

Even more startling than this is the information that more than one-quarter of total gross income was in fact taken by the top 10 per cent of households while the bottom 10 per cent got less than 2 per cent; to be precise they got 1.5 per cent.

The article went on to analyse other aspects of the Nolan Study and then concluded :

The study also showed that the trend in the distribution of household gross income in the period 1965-1966 to 1976 in urban areas was one of decreasing inequality in the years 1965-1966 to 1974 followed by a reversal to a trend of increasing inequality in the years 1974 to 1976.

Thus while the top 20 per cent of households had 42.4 per cent of gross income going to them in 1965-1966 this had declined to 40.7 per cent in 1974, it then rose to reach 42 per cent in 1976.

I am afraid it is rising still and the disparity is worsening. This is really a major consideration for our society, that those on the poverty line, those in deprived circumstances, those living totally on social welfare benefits are worse off in comparative terms each year than the income-earning, job-holding sectors of our economy. We have very sharp inequities and injustices in our society, very bad income and wealth distribution. The kinds of incentives the Government have been introducing in order to stimulate growth have worsened this disparity. I believe that the Government cannot morally justify the possibility of restraint in public expenditure because, as the Nolan study clearly shows, taxation has not resulted in income distribution in Ireland; income distribution such as it is will come from public benefits and social welfare benefits and so on.

It is necessary to relate that kind of statistical material and those figures to the human reality on the street. I believe we are going to see a substantial worsening of the social fabric in our cities and elsewhere in the country if we allow a continuing inequality and a worsening disparity between those who have and those who are deprived and are living on or below the poverty line. We hear increasingly an outcry about vandalism. We hear support for the proposals of placing 12 to 16 year old children in a prison context in Loughan House. We hear that this is "necessary" because of the widespread increase in vandalism and so on. We seem to be much more reluctant to look at the root causes of this; to look at the neglect of the centre city areas, of the lack of amenities, lack of jobs, lack of space for the families concerned, lack of back-up support for multi-problem families.

If the Government's answer to reducing the size of the borrowing requirement—and I think 13 per cent of GNP should make anyone worried and concerned because it is evidence of massive Government borrowing—is to continue their incentives, their tax allowances, their tax relief, their removal of wealth tax, removal of car tax, that type of incentive, to increase the amount of money in certain people's pockets that they may consume more and that this may encourage Irish industry to produce more, then we are building up a very real and understandable social divide that could seriously aggravate violence and vandalism in our city areas, particularly among our young people. Why should they feel any real loyalty to a State that allows such disparities and such inequities of income distribution?

I think the real challenge to the Government in fact is to ensure a more equitable sharing of the tax burden and to ensure that the two main sectors which are largely outside the tax net—the larger farmers and the professions—that they bear an equitable share of the tax burden. That is a preferable course to any attempt to cut back on public expenditure or introduce restraints on the so-called "non-job creating" areas, and I think there is also a very real question about that as a definition. Already there has been a restraint in those areas in comparison to the incentives and advantages which those in employment and those at the highest levels of the economy have had.

I have felt from the beginning that one of the real problems in the Government's strategy has been, paradoxically, its stubborn and obstinate consistency. One of the problems about the White Paper is that it stubbornly and obstinately takes on and repeats the commitments of the manifesto and renders those promises part of the Government's strategy in the White Paper. The Government would have been better to have admitted that some of the targets in the manifesto were over-optimistic, that they were part of an election strategy, that the manifesto had to be seen in that light and that the White Paper itself should not have adopted—in a stubbornly blind way—the assumptions and the targets and the projections which the manifesto had put before the people last June.

Instead, the White Paper should have faced more realistically the kind of problems that we have. There is talk now about a more "radical" Green Paper. If radical means substantial restraint in public expenditure and in the so-called non-job creating areas of social welfare, education, and so on, then I do not call that radical. I call that a further diminution in the credibility of the Government that they can adopt such a strategy in Ireland, which is after all an extremely lucky and well-off country. We do not really itemise often enough the advantages we have as a country, the advantages of our size and youth of our people, the enormous resource that is there in our young labour force, or the great potential of our under-developed resources.

I was present in the House yesterday for Senator Murphy's speech, in which he pointed out the constant sniping at and under-valuing of the scope for public enterprise in productive areas and State enterprise commitment in developing our economy. I think he is right in this. It is an ideological problem. It is surprising that the people have not been more aware of the potential of a substantial State involvement in the productive sectors of the economy and the possibility of developing our natural resources, of developing a strategy of land use in order fully to gain for all the people the benefits of the land, of food processing, fisheries, mining. These are all the obvious areas where that strategy would be a much more credible way to achieve targets that we have never achieved before, targets of job creation, targets of the productive development of our economy.

There is one other aspect that is worrying about the situation—the increasing evidence of a rise again in our emigration figures. The present estimate for the year ending April 1978 is that this figure will be about 10,000. If one looks at the particular employment pattern in other European community countries, if one looks at the Commission proposals for youth employment which were studied recently by the Joint Committee on the Secondary Legislation of the European Communities, there must be very real concern that the problem in Ireland of youth employment is substantially worse and will endure for much longer than in the other European Community countries because of our high birth rate, because of our unique demographic structure. Unless we fulfil in practice the kind of language more and more politicians are speaking—unless we radically change the employment situation here, and overhaul the structural framework very dramatically—we will see a terrible drain of our young people to other countries, particularly in the mid-1980s when other EEC countries no longer have the same bulge of young people coming on their own labour markets. There is a healthy stimulus for some young people to go elsewhere looking for employment, to look for work experience, to look for further training for their education and so on. But it should be a journey of choice and not one forced on them by the fact that this country has failed dramatically to respond to the challenge of our very young population, of harnessing the very rich and productive resources that we have, that intellectually and imaginatively we have failed to provide the political structure and the economic and social responses that are necessary.

The main points I will be waiting to hear from the Minister in his reply are, first, what he means by that reference in the May article in Magill to the fact that in order to meet the borrowing rate targets he agrees that there must be either more taxation or public expenditure cuts or at least restraint in the non-job creating areas. That is one question I would like the Minister to answer as specifically and as clearly as possible. The other one is to clarify this whole question of the Government targets in employment reduction and not to talk in economic jargon about job creation which has the deceptive quality that it does not take into account either redundancies or the increase in those looking for work in any given year. If there is to be a switch in terminology then that switch illustrates a failure by the Government to realise the original targets and a change of language and of pace in order to devise new targets.

It is extremely important for the sake of political credibility here that we do not indulge in promises about creating large numbers of jobs when realistically this is not going to be achieved. It is worse to give rise to expectations, particularly among young people, and then not to deliver. The youth employment scheme is a good example of this. There was a firm commitment to 5,000 jobs being created in a very short span and this does not seem to have come on-stream in the way that was predicted. Similarly, there does not seem to be any possibility of the Government reaching their target of employment reduction within 12 months. I notice that in his budget speech the Minister for Finance, Deputy Colley, seemed to be changing the reduction in unemployment number to just over 22,000; but by the end of this year, which pushes us on for another six months, making it a target within 18 months and not within 12 months. I await the figures in December 1978—both the figure of unemployment reduction, the figure reached and the projections at that stage.

One of the factors about the White Paper—and I will finish on this point—that makes one doubt the credibility of the whole strategy is the kind of assumptions on which it bases its predictions. Those include the assumptions of the figures for employment that will be created in the manufacturing industry over a sustained period of three years; the growth rate of 7 per cent over a sustained period of three years, and so on. All of this does not seem to be related to the much more pessimistic assessments of growth rate in the European Community and in Britain, which has so much influence on what will happen in this economy. Similarly for the predicted inflation rate. I have seen increasingly grave concern that the inflation rate will rise substantially after the summer. Indeed, the Government's incentives may be stimulating a rise in inflation. There is a very real worry that inflation may take off again, because all the possible criteria for doing so are there. Also we are a very open economy which is affected by inflation rates elsewhere and the predictions for the British economy after September next are not very optimistic.

The White Paper projections and assessments should be related more specifically to a European Community context and we should realise that we cannot—much as we might like to—do things under the present structure of our economy which are completely out of line with and unrelated to what is happening in other countries of the European Community.

I share Senator Robinson's sense of confusion at the use of the term, job-creation. Indeed, I also share many of her thoughts about the effects of social deprivation upon our society. The expression "job-creation" to me as a non-economist suggests that somewhere out there is a benevolent fairy godmother waiting in the wings ready to wave her magic wand and change all the hard-headed businessmen into soft-hearted philanthropists whose only aim in life is to provide us all with jobs. What we should be concerned with, and what the Government are concerned with, is the creation of an economic climate which will persuade the same hard-headed entrepreneurs to invest more money to make more profits and, incidentally, to provide opportunities of employment for our people. To regard the provision of these opportunities as an end in itself would be to start headlong down an economic cul-de-sac.

The Government's priorities are set out clearly in the White Paper, to end the evils of unemployment and inflation. Indeed, during the past few years one did not have to be familiar with the then current unemployment rates to know how serious the situation had become, particularly if one had one or two children leaving school to place on an almost non-existent labour market. One did not have to be aware of the consumer price index to know that in the last few years inflation had meant the end of any attempt to balance the family budget. One could keep very detailed household accounts from month to month and from week to week and still not know from day to day what one would be expected to pay for any particular item. The Government's strategy should be encouraged rather than denigrated.

If one accepts the validity of the Government's priorities one must also accept the constraints that they impose. The White Paper sets out to reconcile the Government's priority with their obligations in other areas, particularly in areas of social concern. I welcome the statement in the White Paper to the effect that attention will be given to cost effectiveness in public social expenditure. A time when resources are limited is often a good time to take a long look at how we are spending our money and whether we are getting a good return for it. Benefits under the social welfare umbrella come about in response to demand. The State does not decide at what age one will no longer be required to work or, indeed, how many children one needs to have to qualify for family allowances. It does so only in response to what we demand.

There are three figures in our society today which add up to a very disturbing equation. The first is that we are not a poor country. Senator Whitaker recently reminded us that we come 21st in the world league of affluent nations. Secondly, our Exchequer financing of total social security is second highest in the European Community. Thirdly, 20 per cent of our people live below what we regard as a tolerable poverty line. One in five people has not adequate means to feed himself, keep himself warm or clothe himself. If he happens to live alone and is over 65 years of age any of these factors or a combination of them may ensure that he may not survive another winter. We cannot blame the State for this because we get what we ask for in social welfare benefits. I know it is easy to pontificate and say what we should demand, especially when one has not the responsibility of finding the money to pay for it. Some disillusioned economists have suggested that we should throw away the infrastructure altogether and simply hand out the cash in the hope that the needy would lay their hands on the bulk of it. The danger in this approach is that we may throw out the baby with the bath water.

A much more positive approach is the one suggested in the White Paper, that we should consider the implications of the report of the National Economic and Social Council. I hope this will be discussed in the forthcoming Green Paper. In a way our getting what we ask for, which is not what we really want in social welfare benefits, is typical of the negative approach we share with many western societies in that we try to cure the effects of social deprivation rather than root out the causes. An example of this is the way we are allowing ourselves to be persuaded to spend £2 million on providing a system of family courts and State-subsidised civil legal aid without considering the alternatives, without even considering that an alternative exists. Do not misunderstand me. It is a monstrous thing in this day and age if anyone is prevented from obtaining access to the courts simply because his means are limited, but what we are doing here is applying a lawyer's response, the response of the trained legal mind to what is essentially a social problem.

These are the sort of basic questions we should take time to consider before the effects of social deprivation in our society succeed in blowing it apart.

The last paragraph of the White Paper makes it clear that the question of law reform is not considered in the document, nor is the question of the equality of treatment for women. We are aware of the concern of members of the Government in this area, particularly the concern of the Tánaiste who in a recent rather thoughtful speech to a women's seminar on 28 March last expressed his concern at what he termed "the picture that women have of themselves in our society". I can assure the Minister that he will not be left long in the dark.

It is important in debating a national plan that all classes of society should be considered. Women Members of this House would be lacking if they did not speak out on such matters even if our contributions are sometimes regarded as merely providing a little light relief. Women Members will not spend their term of office in elected silence, or selected silence as the case may be.

The Minister referred to the Green Paper which he says will form a basis for discussion with the social partners and other relevant groups and I look forward to the publication of this Green Paper, although not with the same foreboding as Senator Hussey does, when I hope that these matters will be discussed in a way which will encourage full debate on them.

The White Paper is very important and should be discussed as fully as possible. First of all I would like to speak on agriculture. I am deeply involved in agriculture and I was elected to this House from the Agricultural Panel. Reference was made during the debate to the farming lobby. Trade unions and big business men here have a lobby to look after their interests. So should the farming associations have a lobby to look after their interests. It should be more vocal instead of remaining silent.

The Bill discussed here yesterday was supposed to relieve farmers of rates. It did not relieve them of rates. In fact, it added to the rates they will have to pay. They have not been very vocal on that and I would criticise them for that. Reference was also made to the beef barons during this debate. We need beef and if it is the barons who are going to produce this beef; let the barons produce it. We need it. We need to export it. We need to help our balance of payments by exporting beef. The more beef that is produced the more will be exported and that will be to the benefit of the country.

Reference was also made to taxation. We all know that farmers are paying their fair share of taxation at the moment because they are the biggest in terms of employment. Agriculture is of more relative importance to the Irish economy than it is to that of any other EEC member state. The amount of space taken up in the White Paper on agriculture is just three pages. Even so, there is enough in the three pages to give us food for thought. We should be able to get something out of it that will help agriculture. The value of agriculture to this nation in 1977 was over £1 billion. No other section could create that value for this country. Out of that we exported £700 million worth. This has reduced our balance of payments substantially. Only for this £700 million worth of exports I do not know where the country would be today. Therefore, it is necessary that we should put as much emphasis as we possibly can on encouraging the farmers to produce more. By producing more, nearly all of that extra production will be exported. If we export more, we will further reduce the balance of payments and we will be able to invest to create employment in other areas. Agriculture has created enormous employment and has been increasing that employment over the past number of years because of the increase in production. It will increase employment in areas where it is necessary, in rural Ireland and in the west.

In the west we have already a very strong co-operative industry. We have the North Connacht Farmers Co-operative, the Donegal Co-operatives and the Golden Vale Co-operatives creating wealth for the farmers. Through the co-operative movement much advice is getting through to the farming community. The people employed at executive level in the co-operative movement are very keen to create wealth in that area, to produce more; to create extra wealth so that it can be put back into the area. I congratulate the co-operative movement for the efforts they are making within that area.

It is not just in that area that the co-operative movement is carrying out a function that benefits the area. There is the area I work in myself. That is the Mitchelstown area which started off some years ago. The farmers came together and founded a co-operative. After a period of less than 50 years they employ over 2,000 people. This area now covers south Tipperary, most of north-east Cork and a substantial part of County Limerick. Only for the investment in that area, not alone would the farmers be very poor but so would the people in the area. The average earnings of those working in that area within the co-operative are about £3,000 a year and these are invested in the area by those people and creating more employment. We should look more to the co-operative movement to create the interest in rural Ireland.

It is also necessary to have a new advisory authority and the authority proposed by Deputy Mark Clinton when he was Minister for Agriculture would be ideal. When the new Bill is introduced in the Seanad I will speak on it. The Minister for Agriculture is making a mistake in not including the Agricultural Institute in that authority but I will speak on that later.

As far as agriculture is concerned there is very little wrong that cannot be corrected. We should have an advisory service working and meeting the farmers, helping the farmers of Ireland to solve their problems, to increase production on the land, to improve stock, grass and so on. The farmers cannot do it on their own. They must have the help of the agricultural adviser. They must have the help of those in the industrial end of agriculture. If they have this help then there is no doubt that in a short time we will not be talking about production of a billion pounds but about two billion pounds and we could be exporting that extra billion pounds out of this country. That is what is needed. Agriculture is more important than any other industry, but it is the most criticised by those who do not understand it. That disappoints me and the people who are trying to do their best for agriculture.

The White Paper states that the largest single problem in Irish agriculture is that the level of total output is too low. That is correct. That is what I have been saying. This output can be increased. Much more progress can be made. The size of the average farm is too small. The average farm should be increased to at least 50 acres. The only way that can be done is through a new Land Commission because the Land Commission that we have has failed. There is too much land rented out on the 11-month system to farmers. The farmers put little into the land but try to take as much as they possibly can out of it. We need a new Land Commission which is viable and working and interested in the farmers of Ireland, interested in getting the land distributed, interested in increasing the land holdings of farmers to 50 acres or over. Unless we have that, we cannot have the land structure we would like here.

There is a very small number of farms run by young farmers. There are historical reasons for that. When we are owners of land, we do not like to give it away. The main reason for that is not finance. It is history. Much of the land was grabbed from the farmers of Ireland and now, when they have a chance of getting that land back they like to hold on to it. We should educate the farmers to hand over this land to their sons or their daughters, or to hand it over, over a period of years, to neighbouring farmers to work it. Unless we can persuade them to do that, then we are failing. We must not fail. This country deserves more than that. We must succeed because unless we succeed in agriculture, we will fail in everything else.

There is a reason for the present ratio of tillage to grassland. Farmers have not the full education that they should have. They buy a few cattle and put them out on the grass. The cattle get fat and then they are sold. There is very little work in this. There is very little extra financial investment after buying the cattle. Many farmers will buy cattle in March or April and sell them off again in October. That must change. The only way to do that is through the advisory service. Get these people out of the offices and on to the land, to do the job they were educated for. When I see the new Bill and examine it, if the institutes are not part of it I will oppose it because I feel strongly that they must be part of the authority.

Again there is inadequate drainage. We have heard over the last month or two that there will be EEC help to drain the lands in the west. That is very welcome but it is not enough. Money will not drain the land. It is the effort that will be put into it because of that money that will drain the land. The land must be drained to allow that effort to be put into it. There is much land wasted here. Drainage is needed all over the country but more so in the west.

Areas that we forget are the hills and mountains. If we fertilised them, they would produce enough fodder to keep substantial extra numbers of sheep, and we all know how valuable sheep are now. We could also grow trees, which are very valuable to the nation, on the mountains.

We must reclaim the bogs. Bord na Móna are at present examining the reclaiming of the bogs. They made a statement that when they have the bogs reclaimed they will give them, not to neighbouring farmers, not to the small farmers, but to the large farmers. I do not agree with that. They should distribute the reclaimed bogs to the people who are living beside the bogs and who can produce more from those bogs. They must have within that area also an advisory service to help farmers.

I would like to refer to the Dairy News, No. 228, May 27, which gives an estimation of the cattle population in the main countries in the world, Australia, New Zealand, the EEC countries and the USSR. 730 million tonnes of beef was exported from Australia in 1977. All that is available to them to export in 1978 is 595,000 tonnes. That is a reduction of 18.5 per cent or 135,000 tonnes of beef. In 1977 New Zealand exported 385,500 tonnes of beef. In 1978 all they can export is 320,000 tonnes of beef. This is a reduction of 17.1 per cent or 65,500 tonnes. The EEC countries exported 120,000 tonnes in 1977 and all they can export in 1978 is 110,000 tonnes, a reduction of 15.4 per cent, or 18,000 tonnes. The USSR which is an importing country will import 275,000 tonnes in 1978 compared with 250,000 tonnes in 1977. This is due to the low production of beef in their country, which is 25,000 tonnes. This makes up a substantial extra 243,000 tonnes of beef that is needed to fill the void created. We are a small nation, just over three million people, and we cannot fill this void overnight, but it shows the outlets that are there and the outlets that will be there in the future because of the increased populations in those countries. Even though they may have the pill and so on, the population is still increasing in all those countries and the demand will be there. We must produce more cattle. Let us create the incentives that will allow our farmers to hold the breeding stock on the lands. If they are exporting the breeding stock, then there is no hope. Let us give them a chance to hold on to the breeding stock, to breed the cattle that are necessary to fill the void that is going to be created in the world.

I would like to make a few comments on the Forestry Division. The Government should consider taking the Forestry Division out of the control of the Department of Lands and creating a semi-State body, giving those people who are working in the Forestry Division an opportunity of being managers of the industry and not civil servants. If you give that opportunity to those people who are working in forestry, an opportunity to develop themselves, to be their own managers and to do their own thing, I have no doubt that the forestry industry will improve. I have spoken to many of them on this subject and they are very keen to come out from the civil service to do this. They are confident that they could improve the whole forestry area.

Another thing I should like to speak on is the fishing industry. Conservation is all important because unless we have conservation we will not have growth and we must have growth in the fishing area. We must also educate the people who are working within that area to realise that breeding is important. They were promised a 50-mile exclusive limit and they did not get it. The problem in that area is that they see the Spanish pirates and the EEC pirates coming in and cleaning out the fishing areas. Very little is being done about this: the penalty is so small that those people can come in at any time, pay the fine and go away with the fish. Unless we change that, unless we penalise them to the extent that they will never come back again we will never get rid of the pirates. It is suggested that any ship caught within the 12-mile area would be fined £100,000 instead of the £500 they are being fined now, and that the catch and gear would be confiscated. Unless we can convince our fishermen that we will get rid of the pirates, our fishermen cannot do anything.

Much has been said about the school leavers. I agree with everything that has been said about them. They must be put into employment as quickly as possible after leaving school, otherwise we will have chaos. Very little has been said about the people between 25 and 45, the fathers and mothers of families, who are unemployed. A big majority of those who are unemployed are of that age group. In a situation where we have the majority of those unemployed between the ages of 25 and 45, when the children see the father and mother every day sitting down reading the paper or otherwise wasting their time, what type of atmosphere are we creating? What they learn at home is all-important, more important than what they learn at school. It is as important to have fathers between the ages of 25 and 45 working as it is to have the young people working but at least young people should be able to see that there will be a future for them when they have finished their education.

I am worried about the oil sheiks who shook this world of ours some years ago. They have learned their power from that and they are waiting to do the very same thing again. They are not increasing the price of oil but they are waiting for complacency to set in when suddenly they will increase the price again. It is time for us to take a look at our stock of oil in preparation for what may come.

The issue of a White Paper on economic and social development and unemployment is timely and necessary. It is essential that we provide employment for the many people now out of work and for the great number of young people who will be coming on the labour market for the first time in the coming months. There has always been a high level of unemployment in the Republic of Ireland. Indeed, it is true to say that political freedom is of little use unless we use it to ensure that we provide work for all our people. That means making sacrifices to provide employment for all those seeking employment. Even during the boom years of the late sixties and early seventies registered unemployment in the region of 70,000 people persisted. This figure would have been even worse if it were not for the facility of emigration—a lot of our young people found themselves in other countries.

Our entry into the EEC provided great economic bonuses for the agricultural sector, but the expected economic development which would have enabled this country to provide a sufficient level of employment to absorb those on the live register and those newly seeking employment did not materialise. This was mainly due to the world economic recession following the increases in fuel oil prices in 1974 and 1975.

The strategy followed by the National Coalition Government during the years of recession was that employment should be maintained, and this strategy was successful to a large degree. There was, of course, a substantial increase in the unemployment figures as shown by the live register. Percentage-wise, however, this increase in the unemployment figures was not as severe as in most of the other developed western economies. The increase in unemployment in the case of Ireland was less than 100 per cent, and in many of the European countries the increases varied from 300 per cent to 400 per cent. The inflation rate in Ireland reached its highest level in 1975. Because of the strategy followed by the National Coalition Government, this rate has been decreasing since and it showed a decrease of 3 per cent in 1976 and 4.5 per cent in 1977. The rate of further decrease in 1978 is expected to be 6.5 per cent. It is obvious that we must continue to reduce the rate of inflation if we are to compete in world markets. This is essential if we are ever to succeed in reducing unemployment to a tolerable and acceptable level.

Some recent indications show that emigration has been resumed. This is apparent when one examines the statistics provided by the transport companies of the inflow and outflow of passengers. A similar indication was obtained from a 1977 labour force survey carried out by the EEC. There were also some other disturbing trends which may have scared away potential industrialists who might otherwise have established industries here and created jobs for all our people. The large-scale borrowing in the 1978 budget, much of it to finance a deficit on the current account of the budget, does not help to promote confidence in the economic strategy of the Government.

Most people, too, would like to see increased employment in manufacturing industry and in agriculture as a prerequisite to increased employment in the public sector. Increases in employment in the public sector should, in normal circumstances, follow rather than precede increases in the production side of the economy. The industrial relations field has been chaotic since the Government took over. This may deter many potential industrialists from setting up new industries in this country. The lack of action by the Government in such cases as the Ferenka factory dispute, with a loss of 1,400 jobs, again points to the disastrous course being followed by the Government.

The shambles of the telecommunications sector can only reinforce the view that the Government do not have the will to provide the infrastructure which would give confidence to any person wishing to establish new industries and provide more jobs here. The arrangements for the provision of disposal areas for toxic waste need urgent attention. Now is the time for action in this sphere before further damage is caused to our prospects of encouraging both native and foreign industrialists to create new employment opportunities.

In the White Paper it is indicated that the Government will take a firm decision on the construction of a zinc smelter. When will this firm decision be made? Will it be made in 1979, 1980 or ten years hence? The New Jersey Zinc Corporation recently announced its withdrawal from the establishment of a zinc smelter in Ireland. One must ask the reason why. Is it due to the Government's policy and its labour relations inactivity? On page 20 of the White Paper the Government sets out a programme for a reduction in the number out of work. The intention is to reduce the number out of work by 5,000 in 1977, 20,000 in 1978, 25,000 in 1979 and 30,000 in 1980. There has been so much confusion by the Government when describing their actions in creating jobs and in jobs secured, about the numbers on the live register of unemployment that one needs to be very clear regarding what is meant by the numbers out of work. It was the speakers from the Government who, prior to the last general election, made much play of the fact that the live register only showed a proportion of those out of work and that the real figures of those unemployed was in the region of 162,000 to 170,000 people. I want to ask the Minister to spell out what he means by "a reduction in the number out of work". Does he mean that the number on the live register will be reduced by the number indicated for each year or will he justify a position whereby there will be little or no reduction in the number on the live register by saying that new persons coming onto the labour market are filling the jobs being created?

I have already referred to the lack of confidence created by the Government in increasing by over 2 per cent the percentage of the gross national product to be borrowed in 1978. According to the White Paper, it is hoped to reduce the 13 per cent being borrowed in 1978 by 2.5 per cent to 10.5 per cent of the gross national product in 1979. How will this reduction be effected? Does the Minister intend to cut expenditure and where will the reductions be? Will social welfare recipients be cut again and lose out further in 1979, or will there be phased increases in taxation, in particular, taxation on the PAYE category?

The "Guaranteed Irish" and the "Buy Irish" campaigns planned initially by the Coalition Government are very important elements in increasing employment. They deserve the support of everyone in this House and of every Irish man and woman. There is much scope for increasing employment, too, in improving our road system. The materials used in road construction are largely home-produced and one could quickly increase employment in road improvements, and the effects on efficiency in road transport could immediately be available to Irish industry. As a public representative from Cork city, I am also aware of the need to improve the passenger services in our cities to make them more efficient and more attractive to our people.

Regarding development of our native energy resources, I want to pay tribute to my colleague, Deputy Peter Barry, for the decision which he took when he was Minister for Transport and Power in developing the natural gas field at Kinsale Head, and also for his decision to develop more bog lands and turf production. Both of these will give worth-while and long-term employment and will help our national energy resources and reduce our dependence on imported fuels.

I should like to refer to the farm advisory service. We now find that the Government, in a fit of pique, propose to disestablish the authority set up by Deputy Mark Clinton when he was Minister for Agriculture and which had the backing of all the farming organisations. The White Paper makes reference to the need for the partnership of all those involved in agriculture and in industrial production. Is this the way to encourage a degree of partnership and co-operation?

What can one say about the fishing industry except that a mess has been made of the 50-mile limit, of the restrictions on fishing by our own fishermen and of the lack of control of fishing by some foreign trawlers on Irish waters.

On a point of order, is the Senator quoting from a document?

The Senator is not entitled to read a speech but the Senator may use notes.

In conclusion, I should like to ask the Minister to make sure that more people are employed.

I was one of the people who believed in the creation of the Minister's Department and wished him well in it. I was one of the people who supported the concept of planning, starting from a point that the Minister was in a position to start from. So far I have not had any indication that the Minister will be as successful as I hoped he would be, although it is still early.

I have seen programmes for economic development, plans laid down, white papers and green papers. I do not look at this subject from the point of view of the people who usually involve themselves in this process. There are in this House many people who are very familiar with the jargon that is normally used in this area, people who stand up and talk about the balance of payments, who debate the different systems of putting the live register together, external reserves and so on. I see it from the other side. I always ask myself where can I see the mark of national planning or some sort of national development plan in the problems that I encounter from day to day and I must confess I rarely do. I believe that some past plans and programmes have had an effect on national trends, but I see programmes that lay down figures, targets and objectives as pious hopes. If they finally happen to coincide with the realities, it was, as they say in rural Ireland, the way the cow killed the hare. It was absolutely by chance. While the White Paper might be a basis on which to build, it is too like everything that went before it. There is nothing in it to convince me that this effort is any more serious than all the efforts of the past, or that the pious suggestions and hopes contained in this document will become a reality. This paper projects growth in agriculture. It would be a blind man that would not see that we can increase agricultural production. To point to the obvious is as far as it has gone.

We must get to the stage of relating plans at national level to the details of work in everyday life, to the stage when the ordinary person involved in production can identify with the plans that are being made. I am not one who wants to continually refer to the Government manifesto or to the manifesto of the Opposition as they were at the time. I do not want to rub their noses in this by any means but want to make what I believe is an honest comment. The majority of people on the other side of the House who relate this document to the manifesto and tell us about the plan that was prepared for the development of the economy did not know about the manifesto until it was published in the papers.

A Senator on this side of the House said yesterday that, they did not have to go so far to win the last election. Perhaps he is right. I wish they had not gone so far. The manifesto is behind them and it achieved what it set out to achieve: it returned Fianna Fáil to power with an unprecedented majority. The manifesto should not be used to plan our economy for the future. I hope we do not have another manifesto like it.

If we study the manifesto we will find that the weighty promises in it were not related to the economic realities of the future. I honestly believe that. Already I can see that the promises in relation to the abolition of taxation, the decisions that were taken in regard to housing, rates, and so on have created other problems, problems that were unforeseen when these promises were made. For instance, in the whole area of local government, who would have foreseen the end of any measure of autonomy at local level? Who could have foreseen that the local authorities, as happened in my own county, would automatically lose whatever power they had to plan, make progress, influence the development of their own areas. The people who stand up today and say, "We planned this", did not plan it. When they published the manifesto they did not intend to take from local authorities the power they had to raise rates, as we did in my county, to carry out any development within the Acts, which gave us a wide range of possibilities to choose from. We could undertake local schemes to give employment; we could undertake drainage schemes; we could tar whatever roads we wanted to; we could buy land for advance factories. There was no limit to the things we could do if we wanted to raise money. We raised money until the election manifesto and all its promises put a limit on our ability to raise any more finance.

In this one area we are left with rate collectors, people who are in secure employment for the rest of their lives, men who cannot collect enough rates to pay their salaries. What sort of planning was that? What sort of plan was it that provided for the elimination of rates and left people in those jobs without questioning how that problem was going to be solved? These men are in employment today and are laughing at the Government. Whether they be Fine Gael people, Fianna Fáil people or Labour people, they are laughing at the Government because they have jobs and salaries and no work to do. The same situation applies to housing. The housing officers employed by the county councils to investigate people's means and so on are no longer necessary. We woke up one morning to find that housing and group water schemes were no longer a part of the function of local authorities. Nobody ever said what is going to happen to the staff. Nobody ever questioned the problems it would create. Nobody ever questioned the centralising of these functions in O'Connell Bridge House. Why did this planning in reverse take out of an area like Leitrim the responsibility for group water schemes, housing reconstruction grants and new house grants and put it all into O'Connell Bridge House? We needed the jobs that were created in this area in County Leitrim. All these functions could have been administered more efficiently in Carrick-on-Shannon. I see no reason in the wide world why that had to happen. I do not believe the Government intended it to happen. I do not believe they had a notion at any time that suddenly, as a result of the rash promises they made, they would lose control of a number of factors and would find themselves doing things that will have long-term repercussions. That is why I say it is not sufficient to provide a little document like this which is nothing but a set of pious hopes. It may be a start. I hope it is a start and that the Minister will be very successful in his office and in the things he proposes to do. I hope the election manifesto will be forgotten by everybody involved, at every level, in administration in the next four years; that they will seriously consider the direction in which they want us to go, not what the psychologists said the people wanted two years ago, and try by every means available to them to steer the country in that direction.

In the long run, there is not a serious difference of opinion between both sides of this House in regard to our destination, but we may have some differences about the means of getting there. I will not cry over the strategy of the Government as laid down in this White Paper if it succeeds in getting us to where we want to go. I am questioning its seriousness in setting out to do this.

Another problem at local level relates to roads. We were not allowed to increase grants. Roads which were due for surface-dressing two years ago have not yet been surface-dressed and money has not been made available to do it this year, so tight is the budget. This is serious in a county like mine, in the west generally, where we have already fallen behind seriously, as An Foras Forbartha has reported, in our requirements and where we cannot reasonably expect to establish industry if we have not got the communications. There is no need for me to go into the question of telephone communications. On the question of roads, which was the responsibility of local authorities, and arising out of the whole decision taken on rates, it was a pity that local authorities should be restricted from raising money to develop roads if they so decided. Most councils might not decide but, in special cases and in certain circumstances, there was always a case to be made for this being done.

In the whole area of industry there are a number of things I would like to say and I do not want to be too long-winded about them. Senator Cranitch this morning spoke about the reason people were not taking up trades and asked what we can do in our programme for national development to encourage people to do this. In industry it is regrettable that where the practice of taking on apprentices, training people over a period of years, giving them a very necessary and useful training obtains one finds that a young man leaving school—if he proposes to enter industrial employment and if it involves serving an apprenticeship—is forced to go in, take up that apprenticeship, spend three or four years on a lower rate of wage, work harder than the boy or girl who leaves school at the same age and gets a job in the public service. The young person leaving school, going into the public service immediately walks into a job that gives him or her nice pay, security of employment and a guarantee of a secure position for the rest of his or her life.

A young person who is expected to go into industry, take up a trade, serves his time to some apprenticeship, that young man is at a serious disadvantage because he must take less wages, he has not got the same security. At the same time the Government insists on getting its full cut out by way of a stamp from the very start and income tax, if he falls into that bracket. Of course most of them do not. Nevertheless I feel that this needs to be looked at seriously if we are genuinely to go out and offer people alternatives. They all want to go to the public service at present. That is a bad thing; there is no place there for them. We must look carefully at ways and means of attracting them into industry.

The idea that we can devise some means of giving employment to young people, a month at a time, schemes for this, that and the other, gather up groups of young people, put them into employment whether the job is necessary or not, was a ridiculous concept from beginning to end. I do not care who started it. I heard it even before this Government came into office and the idea is still around. I have seen young people gathered up getting £16 or £17 a week, who were supposed to be studying, and when the only criterion for getting on the course was they would be out of a job and be available to undertake the course. Therefore, they were brought around to various industries. I have seen them going out to look at industries where they were supposed to learn something. It was obvious that the concept was wrong from the very beginning. Those people had no interest. They were there only because there was £16 a week in it. It was not set up on a proper basis. If those people wanted to learn something they would be in there themselves. They were in just to kill time. I said to myself, after I had seen that performance, seen the people being brought around in a bus, seeing the fact that they were being paid a week's wages, that the whole thing was not an effort to solve an economic problem but to fill time. Schemes of this sort certainly are dangerous to the whole concept of economic development.

I do not want to interrupt the Senator but it is now 1.30 p.m. Perhaps the Leader of the House would indicate——

The Minister would be in difficulty from approximately 2.30 p.m. until 3 p.m. because he has to answer questions in the Dáil. Consequently, I am suggesting to the House that we sit until 2 o'clock and then adjourn until 3 o'clock. The Minister would hope to be back at approximately 3 o'clock.

Is that agreed?

Agreed.

On this idea, it is usually very easy for people in Opposition to come in and say we should have schemes and all the rest of it to solve the problem, pour in money, get people off the streets; by all means get people off the streets but I believe there is a better way to do it. It is better to undertake a complete review of the whole area of apprenticeship, certainly of eliminating the insurance stamp for young people starting off, if the industry cannot afford to pay them the sort of wages to compete with jobs in the public service. That is an area that should be examined before the other sort of soft options are considered as a solution to the problem. With regard to all these employment schemes, there is an old saying that a man is as well sitting idle as working idle and if there is no productive work to be done, if there is no sense in the job that is being done there is no point in thinking that we are solving a problem by getting people to do it: we are back to the stage of the old futile, ridiculous schemes long ago of digging trenches when people were starving, and so on. These things do not solve the economic problem and that is not the way to approach it.

Housing comes up very often for discussion here, and we seriously need to take a look at where we are going. We all know that a young couple today getting married, looking for a home in the city here, if they are to provide that from their own resources, or borrow the money, or seek to provide a home that they will have on their own, independent of everybody else in which to bring up their family, we all know they have got, for a start, to saddle themselves with a debt that they will have to repay over 30 years and, if they have not got money saved already, it is going to involve half of their income. That will have a tremendous effect on their whole attitude to life, will put pressure on them from the very start, will necessitate their demanding a bigger wage than perhaps their job is able to give them. It will impose so many difficulties on that young couple that it is an area that probably requires the very first consideration.

I do not know what we can do about that as a problem in itself—I mean the cost of housing in a city like Dublin and the bigger urban centres. At the same time, it is an awful shame to see a movement of people out of areas where there are already houses, where there are sites going free, where labour to build such houses is cheaper, where they can be built at a fraction of the cost, where there is not the need for the same comprehensive set of services, such as water and sewerage, where people can establish for themselves comfortable homes at a fraction of the cost and where sites are available at a reasonable price. At the same time people are moving out of areas where there are these facilities into areas where there are already so many. I need not mention the other areas where there is a high crime rate and so on. There is no need to go into that except to point out that in some of the areas I mentioned where sites are for nothing and houses are still falling vacant—which is the Sligo/Leitrim area—we have the situation that that is the only part of Ireland where crime is dropping.

It is a good case for planning so that people will remain in these areas rather than come into compound the crime, housing and all the other problems there are here in this city and others. I believe that an industry established in the west could possibly—I am not trying to sell cheap labour—get away with paying a lesser rate of wages, that people would be much better-off taking a lot less wages. For that reason there should be a concerted effort to get industry established in the west, to sell people the stable society, the freedom from labour problems, bearing in mind the genuine desire of people to get jobs and the assurance that, when they get them, they will certainly respect them and do everything possible to make them succeed. We should try to sell the west as an industrial base for all these reasons.

I do not see the advocacy of the old idea of the growth centres; a housing estate of a couple of thousand houses will be the same whether it is in Sligo or Dublin and the same problems will arise around it. I do not see why we must have growth centres. I do not see why, in a small country such as ours we cannot spread out our industries. The only question to be asked is whether there is sufficient labour available at present. We should seek the sort of industries that are likely to grow. In a county such as Leitrim at present there will be 1,300 people leaving school this year. The best the IDA can hope for in the next four years are 400 new jobs. This means that the vast majority of these young people will be driven away from the areas where sites are available at a very low cost, from their relations and their friends, where schools have started to become empty, where houses are still empty. We should be very careful to ensure that our planning is geared so that the people from these areas, who do not want to leave them in the first place, do not come in here to compound the problems of the urban areas at present.

We should be much more flexible. We will have a problem trying to encourage industry from outside. If we are trying to encourage our people to build their own industry, to learn new skills, to produce articles at a competitive price, things that are wanted, we should seek to create some sort of an advisory service that would be available to fledgling industrialists starting up. I have said this before. If it is necessary in the area of agriculture, where there was some tradition of production, where you had some knowledge and education, surely it must be much more necessary in the whole area of industry? But this is not available.

In spite of all the aids and incentives to industrialists to set-up about which we hear—they seem, at face value to be fairly generous and have been improved recently—nevertheless, the average industrialist will tell you that in spite of all the aids that are there, when he gets his grant and sets up he is dangerously alone. He has not the experience of dealing with money just as most Irish industrialists who set-up in the past 20 years did not have. There is nobody to give him this advice. He must face his bank manager. The farmer can take his adviser into the bank manager with his plans, projections and some ideas of how he is going and a recommendation if he thinks he is doing the right thing. Industry has no such service. Industrialists are left alone. If they are in serious difficulty the only option open to them is Fóir Teoranta. That is all right.

But the whole idea of a rescue operation is not acceptable to most independent-minded, self-respecting industrialists. This is something that they will resort to only if they are on the verge of bankruptcy. While Fóir Teoranta have done a good job, it is not the ideal way to solve the problem. More interest by the Industrial Development Authority in some sort of after-care service for industrialists, and particularly for first-time, new, inexperienced industrialists, men who may be very skilled but have not the wide range of experience necessary, should be considered.

We have the whole idea of creating jobs, saving jobs, but sometimes one comes across a case and one would not honestly believe that anybody in Dublin was concerned about jobs or that there was any Government with that concern. Take, for example, the case of a small co-operative that set-up an industry but never made any profit on it. Share holders took risks to put it there; it gives employment. For all the years of its operation the people in its employment paid tax weekly; they paid a stamp weekly. They were mostly young people and none of them ever collected any benefit—unemployment benefit, sick benefit a very minimum. It is not a profitable industry but it keeps 40 or 50 people in work. Some day an inspector comes from the Department of Labour and says there are so many people there who are not being paid the minimum legal wage. The directors say: "But this place never made profit. We the members of the co-operative, have been subsidising it." However, the reply from the Department of Labour will be: "The law says you must pay it and that is that." The directors will say: "Could you let us off the stamp? Could you remit the income tax? If this industry is forced to close, you will have 50 young people collecting the dole next week." Yet, there is no solution.

Where does planning fall down when a situation like this arises? The directors might have plans to extend and employ 14 or 15 other people. They scrap their plans. They had four people who were disabled employed there and they are forced, because they must become competitive, to let them go, put in machines to do a faster job. I can tell Senators that it happens. Where is planning when that sort of situation occurs? Nobody is responsible. Nobody has any answer. The law is the law. I can point out several cases where genuine efforts were made to solve unemployment problems in areas. I am not blaming the Government for this. I am saying it is not as simple as writing a document such as this if we are to make a genuine effort to solve the problem.

Moving into the area of agriculture, we have the farm modernisation scheme which at present is becoming something of a limitation on development. I was not one of the people who knocked the modernisation scheme from the beginning. I was not one of the people who was concerned whether I was classified as development or transitional. It did not matter to me. I did not mind what sort of a title was put on me if I was able to get grants. In the past in the west we had an advisory service dedicated to advising the farmer, being on his side at all times. We have tended recently to move into a situation where the adviser now carries the rule book. It is regrettable. I accept that there has to be rules. Nevertheless, I can see a great difference in the spirit in which the legislation here is applied to agriculture and that in which it is applied in Northern Ireland. Certainly, if we are controlled by Directive 159 the farmers of Northern Ireland never heard of it, or it must be a different Directive entirely. I know the way works are costed and the level of grant paid. The level of grant that is paid is not nearly so important as the way the work is costed. That is too much detail.

I see this whole area as something that we should examine closely. For instance, we had a lot of people in Ireland who were part-time farmers who cannot now be classified. Agricultural contractors, particularly in the west, will tell you that all their work came from these people that in the winter periods, when farmers did not have money and were not doing work, the part-time farmer, the publican who had land, all these other people who had land were there. They employed agricultural contractors, carried out improvements to farm buildings and so on. They increased agricultural production and that is what is most important. Maybe we are at the stage—but nobody says it this way—when we have only X number of £s to put into the agricultural industry and that must go to a particular category of people. If that is the situation, we should be told it. We should say there is not money enough to finance the wider development that agriculture requires. If we are to solve our unemployment problem with the aid of agriculture, our ambition should be to increase agricultural production every place the means to do that are available. We should provide an incentive to produce something from every acre of land, regardless of who owns it. We need not talk about sharing out the land taken from people who have other jobs between all the farmers because we have not yet reached that stage. That is a solution some people might propose. At present there is no need for it because what is now necessary—one can see from looking around one—is not land for our farmers nearly so much as farmers for our land. Where there are people ready to carry out agricultural development, the rules should be stretched to the very maximum to ensure that they get whatever incentives there are to increase agricultural production.

It is all right to write about planning. I ring up the Committee of Agriculture and tell them that I have a man who has 60 acres of land and that he is interested in carrying out a reclamation job. He is going to give employment to the people carrying out the work, to quarries, to the gravel pits. He is going to give employment to the people who make the pipes. He is going to increase agricultural production. However, the CO says: "It is outside the regulations. We cannot grant him any because his income is £2 over." I telephone the Department of Agriculture and ask if there is any way round this. The reaction there is not: Who is he? Can we help him? There are jobs at stake here. No. One would think one was suggesting that somebody was trying to steal money from the Department of Agriculture. There is no concern, no commitment. If there are plans being made at the top they have not percolated down. That civil servant is much more afraid of his knuckles being rapped for crossing the red line than being anxious that somebody will clap him on the back for having done a good job, for having provided a job for somebody down in Sligo/Leitrim. I am not blaming that civil servant for his attitude, but that is his attitude. I am not blaming him but rather the system. If we are to introduce the concept of planning and get it to percolate down to the farm gate, to the factory floor, apply it right down through local government, then we must take a wider look at it than is being done here and has been in the past.

I would ask the Minister, who is in a unique position to undertake radical and major changes in the whole idea of preparing plans and getting people involved, to think of doing this rather than spending too much time on the preparation of documents that are all right for discussion by people with an intellectual bent. They may sound very nice and sufficiently complicated and not too many people will understand them. It is all very convincing but it is not what planning is about.

I could have gone a little further on the whole subject of housing because it is an area in which I am interested and is so very important. I genuinely believe that most young people who get a job at 18, 19 or 20 years of age and who get married a few years later could provide themselves with a house even on a modest income. I know people who have done it. I know that while some people cripple themselves with a debt they will be paying for over 30 years, other people can do it comparatively easily. There are no means available by which young people can be educated in this respect. It is an important area in which we might well consider making some sort of advice available.

It will involve so much of the earned income of our people in the next 20 years if they are to have their own homes. The alternative is to provide them with local authority housing, something which should if possible be avoided. There will always be a minority of people, a weaker section, who will need the facility of local authority housing, but for many reasons I believe it is not something to be encouraged as a solution to our housing problem. Even today young people in the west can have their house provided for, say, £5,500 to £6,000 having got a site from a relation and paying people to do the work for them. When one mentions a figure like that in this city one is thought to be crazy. But that can be done. The materials for a new house can still be bought for £4,500—an adequate new house, certainly better than the average local authority house. People who live in such conditions in the west will have the advantage of having a house of their own where they can bring up their own families without undue outside pressures or influence. I suggested at local authority level, that advisers should be appointed by local authorities whose sole function would be to advise people on what materials for houses should cost, how they can be built. I know that a young man in his spare time can build a house in a year. I have seen it done: he worked his 42-hour week and still provided himself with a home by working in his spare time. I believe that is all part of what we should be thinking about if we are to solve the problems that lies ahead of us. If you can give people the confidence of doing that you will be giving them the confidence to solve a lot bigger and wider problems for themselves.

Reverting to the area of agriculture—I do not want to label this as a political point—but if we are serious about planning, and I have read in this document what is said about agriculture, why, for the last ten years, have successive Ministers for Agriculture accepted the necessity to reorganise the whole agricultural, educational, research and advisory services? I was chairman of a committee set up at the request of Deputy Blaney, when he was in office, to study this and report to him and to the General Council of Committees of Agriculture. Senator McDonald helped in the preparation of that report, which was contributed to and agreed to by all members of committees of agriculture, regardless of politics. It was submitted to Deputy Blaney, when he was Minister, but nothing was done. He was followed, I think, by Deputy Haughey and nothing was done. He was followed by Deputy Gibbons and nothing was done. Then Deputy Clinton came along and he undertook to introduce legislation solving the problem to the satisfaction of 90 per cent of the people involved. Perhaps I am being generous to Deputy Gibbons, the present Minister, when I say that Deputy Clinton solved it to the satisfaction of 90 per cent. I genuinely believe that within the party in Government at present there was a small section of people only who believed that this Bill was seriously deficient and that it could have been amended. At a time when we need the agricultural industry, when we need to remove doubts, when we need to set a road straight ahead of us, for small political gain and because of a rash promise made to a half a dozen people at a very sensitive time, we have got to delay this legislation for a year. It is a year now since that board would have been in operation. Still we have not introduced at least to this House alternative legislation, which is purely a political exercise. I am not one of these people who say there is only a right and wrong way to do anything. There are a thousand right ways to do it. I believe that Deputy Clinton's way was at least as good as Deputy Gibbons's way will be, and I have not yet seen what he proposes to do. But it was scandalous that the development of such an important industry should have been held up, and the means of giving direction to that industry—education, research and advice—for so long just because of a promise rashly made and which I believe the majority of people in this House or in the other House, if they could, would change at present. Where do we relate this sort of carry-on to planning a national programme for economic development? That is why I say that the whole idea of election manifestos is a dangerous one in the development of our economy because we will find ourselves continuously in a situation of change in regard to the means of financing things, change in policies, change in plans, breaking down our whole economic structure.

Not much has happened in the area of forestry. We have a much smaller percentage of our total land area planted than the rest of Europe. We pay a big bill for imported forest products every year. Yet we have had the whole area looked at recently. We have had the Agricultural Institute prepare in one, two or three issues of their farm and food research monthly magazine going into detail as to how a programme of forestry could be developed for certain parts of the country, and Leitrim in particular. Before that was published, before it came to public notice and before I knew about it, I proposed at a committee of agriculture meeting in Leitrim— and it was accepted by a conservative body as a means by which we could improve this whole area—the idea of getting more production from our land by means of afforestation. The last time I spoke on this subject here a Senator from the other side of the House got up and accused me, as I have been accused a dozen times before, of putting trees before people, or something like that. The Agricultural Institute proposed planting, I think it was, between 11 and 13 per cent of the total acreage of land in a particular area, which did not include all County Leitrim—indeed I view the problem as not peculiar to County Leitrim—but to a big area of land involving north Longford, Sligo, parts of Fermanagh, most of west Cavan and parts of Donegal.

The Committee of Agriculture sent their plans to the Department of Lands on how they thought this whole area of afforestation should be developed. I proposed as a solution that we should take it away from the Department of Lands, put it in as part of the farm modernisation scheme, since it was all part of the proper utilisation of agricultural land, and that trees should be treated as a crop like anything else. Indeed the way in which Forestry Division was forced to carry on their affairs over the years—making hard bargains and refusing to compromise with local smallholders in certain areas—made a lot of enemies for them. Because they cannot now compete with other purchasers of land for what land is available it seems to me—and I have not the relevant figures—that the whole area of State afforestation has gone completely dead apart from cultivation and looking after the trees already there. The Forestry Division are not buying any land at present in areas where more land ought to be planted. The plan about which I speak was proposed and sent to the Department of Lands. We merely got a curt reply that the Minister had improved the grants. Where is the concept of planning in all of that? Did somebody not want to come down and ask us about our plan? Did the Department of Lands, the people responsible for afforestation, having listened to the case put forward by representatives of the agricultural community in an area most affected by the whole question, think it worth their while to come and ask us to explain our plan or to offer us any single reason for that plan not being accepted?

I believe that the Minister increased the grants, but that only brings them back to the level they were at five or six years ago. Somebody who is good at converting the currencies of yesterday into the prices of today can argue one way or another about that, but it does not count for much. The scheme will not succeed. We have a lot of marginal land that I believe could be usefully put to afforestation without hurting anybody, without creating social problems. Five per cent of all the land in the area that I come from is too hilly to work machinery on, at least the kind of machinery we have at present.

No member of the civil service, no Government Minister, commented in any way on the report by the Agricultural Institute. I heard representatives of the IDA stand up and say that they were undertaking a report and I asked them if they intended to talk to the people in the Agricultural Institute who had already, obviously, done so much work on the subject and I did not get a reply. I am not blaming them, but that is the way it works: the IDA did not know what the institute were thinking about the problem. The first question asked was not what conclusions the institute had come to. They made off-the-cuff remarks that the institute figures were probably wrong, that time would probably prove that, without giving any credit for a serious and sincere effort made to propose a plan for a solution to the economic problems in a particular area of the country.

If we are to get down seriously to the whole idea of planning our economy for the future this is the area, and not window-dressing of this type. Those are the areas to which the Minister must devote himself to finding some sort of solution.

Perhaps I have been a little long, but there is the whole problem of labour relations and all the rest of it. I do not need to say that in the part of the country I come from we have had a terribly bad telephone service for the past few years. It is absolutely disgraceful. It is bad in some areas, but if people in positions of power could only have the experience of trying to work with the sort of service we have had in my part of the country for a number of years and to find that it has disimproved when we thought it was on the point of improvement, then the whole question of labour relations would arise. I am not tied to any ideology on this: I am not one of those who are against public enterprise and all in favour of private enterprise.

From the figures I gave, the IDA propose 500 jobs for County Leitrim in the next four years. We have 13,000 or 14,000 people yearly leaving school. It will take public enterprise and private enterprise together all their time to provide us with the sort of situation that would make us happy in the part of the country that I represent. I do not mind which section does it. The sort of statement that is made by Senator Murphy is certainly not helpful. On the one hand, we have people supporting a manifesto that was brought out in haste and was not meant to be a solution to economic problems and, on the other hand, people pushing their doctrinaire policies, promoting their own ideologies and again not seeking to propose any solutions. Speeches like the one Senator Murphy made were designed to antagonise people, to create divisions, to foster argument, but there was not a germ of a proposal for a solution to any problem in all that he said.

Debate adjourned.
Business suspended at 2 p.m. and resumed at 3 p.m.
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