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Seanad Éireann debate -
Wednesday, 29 Nov 1978

Vol. 90 No. 4

Social Welfare (Amendment) Bill, 1978: Second and Subsequent Stages.

Question proposed: "That the Bill be now read a Second Time."

This Bill provides for a system of fully pay-related social insurance and occupational injuries insurance contributions to replace the existing mainly flat-rate contribution scheme. Separate Bills will provide for pay-related redundancy contributions and health contributions. When the new system comes into operation in April 1979, all of these contributions in respect of employees will be collected together as a proportion of their pay.

Over the years there has been widespread criticism of the inequitable aspects of the flat-rate social insurance contribution system. The new system is intended to redress this situation. It will benefit not only employees but also employers as well as improving the system of collecting contributions for my Department. Later I shall outline for Senators the effects of the proposals but first they may wish to have some background information on the Bill and the purpose of the changes now envisaged.

The present social insurance system is based on the Social Welfare Act, 1952, which had been added to over the years to form the Social Welfare Acts, 1952 to 1978. Consolidation of this legislation is in hand but cannot be completed at this stage. The present Bill takes the form mainly of providing for amendments of these Acts. Because of this, it is somewhat technical and complex and details of the new scheme may not be readily apparent from its terms. I hope that the explanatory memorandum circulated with the Bill will be of assistance to Senators in this regard. I shall, of course, be happy to clarify any matters on which further explanation is required.

As Senators will be aware, the present social insurance system has two funds, the social insurance fund, out of which all benefits other than those related to occupational injuries are paid, and the occupational injuries fund which I will deal with later. The financing of the social insurance fund is by way of flat-rate contributions, the 3 per cent pay-related contribution introduced in 1974, and an Exchequer subvention. This method is, in the overall, regressive in its impact on contributors. The flat-rate contribution, which accounts for about 70 per cent of the total financing of the social insurance fund, is clearly regressive and the effectiveness of the present pay-related contribution in achieving vertical redistribution is limited by the comparatively low earnings ceiling of £2,500 on which the contribution is levied. The maximum pay-related contribution payable annually in respect of any employee is £75, that is 3 per cent of £2,500, of which the employer would pay £50 and the employee £25. The regressive nature of the flat-rate contribution, in which no account is taken of the ability of the employee to pay, means that, in the case of the lower paid employees, this contribution can be a considerable burden.

In order to ease the burden on lower-paid workers, the flat-rate social insurance contribution payable for workers with earnings of less than £50 a week was reduced by £1 a week last January. This concession was increased from April last, so that at present the worker earning less than £50 a week has his contribution reduced by £1.16 a week and his employer's contribution is reduced by 34p a week. It was recognised when these provisions were made, however, that they were only a "stop-gap" measure pending the introduction of fully pay-related contributions. The new system will subsume these reductions and so consolidate the benefits given by them.

The ordinary weekly rate of flat-rate contribution payable by employees, including the redundancy and health contribution, is £3.42 for men and £3.35 for women, less in each case £1.16 for those earning less than £50 a week. Employees also pay a 1 per cent pay-related contribution on pay up to £2,500 a year. For workers earning £25 a week, therefore, insurance contributions represent about 10 per cent of their pay, for workers earning £50 a week, 7.8 per cent and for workers earning £100 a week, 3.9 per cent.

The flat-rate social insurance contribution is also a heavy burden on the employer in the case of labour-intensive industries. The weekly contribution payable by the employer, including that for redundancy and occupational injuries, is £5.26 for male employees and £5.21 for female employees plus 2 per cent of pay up to £2,500 a year. As was mentioned in the Government's Green Paper on "Development for Full Employment", the introduction of the new pay-related contribution system will, by reducing wage costs in labour-intensive industries, make a positive contribution to the achievement of the Government's employment objectives without involving additional public expenditure.

It can also be said of the flat-rate contribution system that it is a somewhat inflexible method of financing the services. The income from contributions varies only with increases or decreases in the level of employment and there is no buoyancy of income where levels of pay rise. Thus increases of income needed to pay increased rates of benefit can only be assured by increasing the rates of contributions.

I will now outline the main features of the proposals in the Bill. The new system will commence on 6 April next though certain provisions of the Bill, such as those requiring confirmation or variation of rates of contribution before commencement of the scheme, will take effect from other dates. It is intended that the new contribution will, like the present 3 per cent pay-related contribution which it will subsume, be collected for the vast majority of employees by the Revenue Commissioners through the PAYE system of income tax collection. It is necessary, therefore, to start the scheme at the beginning of the income tax year. Section 6 of the Bill will enable me as Minister for Social Welfare to assign all necessary functions relating to the collection and recovery of contributions to the Collector-General of Revenue.

I might explain for Senators the reason for the various functions that I may under the Bill assign to the Collector-General. Though the present 3 per cent pay-related contribution provides a basis for the new fully pay-related contribution system, there is much more involved in the new system than a mere increase in the rate of that contribution. The new system will see the end of the stamped insurance card. This removes the basic source of information at present on individual insurance records. Though there are many problems and difficulties inherent in the stamped card system, it can be said that it provides a fairly efficient system of recording weekly contributions on which the social insurance system is based. With the abolition of the card, the main source of information available to the Department for the purpose of maintaining insured persons' records will be the data which employers will be required to submit to the Revenue Commissioners. The collection of this data by the Revenue Commissioners and its availability to my Department will be vital for the efficient operation of the social insurance code. Without it, insured persons' records would be deficient, and this could lead to delays in payments and hardship to claimants. The collection of the information needed for the determination of claims to benefit will be as important a task for the Revenue Commissioners under the new system as is the collection of contributions. For these reasons, the Collector-General must be equipped with all the necessary powers to enable him to pursue the collection of contributions and to secure the prompt return of information relating to contributions and the duration of insurable employment covered by them.

Employers will, under regulations, be required to keep records of their employees' earnings and duration of employment and these records will be open to inspection. Also, information obtained by the Revenue Commissioners will be made available to my Department where required for the maintenance of insured persons' records, the determination of benefit claims and to assist in any action by officers of my Department to ensure that employers are fulfilling their contribution obligations.

Before moving on to discuss how contributions will be calculated I should perhaps refer to the position of those employees who do not come within the scope of the PAYE system, including employees of companies incorporated outside the State who are paid from outside the State. These employees, relatively few in number, will pay a pay-related contribution under special collection machinery which will be operated by the Department of Social Welfare. Such special arrangements already exist in relation to those employees for whom the existing 3 per cent pay-related contribution is due.

Under the new system, a contribution will be due on every payment of reckonable earnings made to an employee up to the limit of an annual ceiling. A definition of reckonable earnings will be contained in regulations. These will be the same earnings as are used for income tax purposes and on which the present 3 per cent pay-related contribution is collected, that is, gross earnings in cash less approved superannuation contributions.

A ceiling to the amount of reckonable earnings on which contributions are charged is a feature of the present 3 per cent pay-related scheme, and it is being continued in the new system. Benefits payable are for the most part flat-rate and, in the circumstances, it would be unreasonable not to have a limit by way of a ceiling on earnings liable to contribution. Among countries which operate earnings-related schemes, including those where benefit is earnings-related, there is a widespread practice of having a ceiling which is related to average earnings and is set at a level which ensures that the bulk of the earnings of the vast majority of workers is within it. This practice was followed when our present pay-related scheme was introduced, and workers and employers are now familiar with it.

The earnings ceiling of £5,000 specified in the Bill is intended, following the international practice which I have just mentioned, to cover the bulk of the earnings of the great majority of workers. It is, however, a provisional figure. The level of the ceiling was determined having regard to the latest information available, at the time the Bill was published, of the average earnings of workers in the transportable goods industries. Power is taken in the Bill to enable the ceiling to be confirmed or recalculated on the basis of whatever later information becomes available before the scheme commences.

The Bill also provides for variation of the ceiling from time to time as required and that, when a change is made, account would be taken of variations in the average earnings of workers in the transportable goods industries. For obvious administrative reasons the ceiling can only be changed with effect from the beginning of an income tax year and it would, of course, have to be determined in good time before that date to avoid inconvenience to employers who must operate the system.

Before moving to other aspects of the scheme, I should like to explain to Senators how the ceiling will operate in the case of employees who work at the same time for two or more employers. For employees, the maximum liability for contributions will always be limited by the level of the current ceiling on earnings in a contribution year. No contribution will be payable by an employee on any part of his earnings which exceeds that ceiling, even if these earnings are aggregated from different employments. In the case of the employer who takes on a worker already engaged in other employment, however, it is not proposed that earnings from both employments should be aggregated so as to relieve the employer concerned of the social insurance contributions which he would pay if he were the only employer. Accordingly, I am proposing in the Bill that such an employer should pay the employer's element of the contribution on all earnings paid by him up to the ceiling. This proposal will ensure that it will not be more advantageous, in respect of social insurance liability, for an employer to take on a person already in other employment rather than to engage someone on the live register.

There will be a standard rate of contribution in respect of employees who are eligible for all social insurance benefits. The effect of this will be to eliminate the present differential in the flat-rate contributions as between men and women and as between ordinary and agricultural employment. These differentials, which have not been increased for many years and have thus become relatively small by reference to the overall contribution rates, were introduced largely to take account of the lower earnings of the workers concerned. In the case of women, account was also taken of restrictions in benefit entitlements which have now been removed except in the case of certain married women whose benefits in respect of sickness or unemployment are restricted.

A fully pay-related contribution of its nature automatically embodies a differential between individuals or groups to the extent that their levels of pay differ. There is, therefore, no need for continuation of the existing differentials.

The standard rate of social insurance contribution specified in the Bill is 11.2 per cent, of which 7.8 per cent is payable by the employer and 3.4 per cent by the employee. The purpose of the Bill is, as I have indicated, to convert the present contributions to fully pay-related ones, and the rates of social insurance contributions have been calculated by reference to the most recent income distribution data and the £5,000 ceiling to yield approximately the same income as would have been produced by flat-rate contributions and the 3 per cent pay-related contribution. At this stage the rates are provisional, and they will, like the earnings ceiling to which I have already referred, be reviewed and either confirmed or varied by regulations before the scheme commences. This review of the rates will have regard to the most up to date information regarding income distribution and the income yields required for benefit purposes. The rates of 7.8 per cent and 3.4 per cent take account of the special increase of 31 p in the flat-rate contribution which was introduced in 1975 to help to meet the cost of the high level of unemployment claims and has been continued on an annual basis since then. The need for further continuation of this increase will also be considered in the context of the review to which I have just referred.

The new pay-related system of contributions will apply to all persons insured under the Social Welfare Acts. Employees in the public sector and other employees who are insured for a limited number of benefits of the social insurance system pay special reduced flat-rate contributions but do not pay the present 3 per cent pay-related contribution. Their flat-rate contribution will now be converted to pay-related contributions at reduced rates appropriate to the cost of the limited benefits for which they are insured. The new rates in these cases will be provided by regulations under section 12 of the Social Welfare Act, 1952.

The present flat-rate contributions payable by voluntary contributors are similarly being converted into income-related contributions. These will be collected directly by my Department as a percentage of the reckonable income of the contributor up to the ceiling of £5,000. Reckonable income for this purpose is to be defined by regulations and will include earnings as a self-employed person. Rates for each of the three classes of voluntary contributor are specified in the Bill. These rates are made up of the elements of the standard rate for employees which are appropriate to the benefits covered by each category of voluntary contribution. As with the ceiling and the standard rate, the rates of voluntary contributions specified in the Bill—4.4 per cent, 2.7 per cent and 1.7 per cent—are provisional at this stage and they will be either confirmed or varied before the commencement of the scheme.

An outline of the situation in regard to tax relief on the new contributions would, I feel, be helpful as this is not a matter which needs to be provided for in this Bill though it is relevant to the rate of contribution. As Senators may be aware, at present an employee can claim income tax relief in respect of the pensions element of his flat-rate social insurance contribution. As the contribution is flat-rate this is a fixed sum each year. Under a pay-related contribution system, the amount of this relief could change with every payment of earnings made to an employee. To avoid the difficulties that would arise in applying such a variable deduction, direct tax relief on the employee's social insurance contribution will be discontinued. In compensation for the extra income tax thus charged on the employee, the overall increase in the amount of tax collected has been taken into account in calculating the employee's contribution and the appropriate reduction made in the rate of contribution. If tax relief had not been taken into account in this way, the overall contribution would, like the existing pay-related contribution, be shared on a two to one basis between employer and employee with the employee's rate being 3.9 per cent instead of, as I have already mentioned, 3.4 per cent. That is a reduction of 0.5 of 1 per cent.

As I have said, the rates of contribution are designed to replace the income which would have been raised by the existing contribution system, had this continued. In the calculation of the rates, it was accepted that the cost of the concession afforded in the employee's rate to compensate for the loss of the income tax relief will be met by an increase in the Exchequer subvention to the social insurance fund.

Flat-rate contributions of 19p and 16p are at present payable for male and female employees respectively in respect of occupational injuries insurance. These will also be converted under section 16 of the Bill to a pay-related contribution at the standard rate of 0.45 per cent of an employee's reckonable earnings up to the ceiling of £5,000 to which I have referred earlier. As in the case of the new social insurance contribution, the existing difference in contribution for men and women will, therefore, cease to apply. This contribution is payable only by the employer and is paid into a separate occupational injuries fund. In recent years, expenditure on benefits, which is growing each year, and on the administration of the occupational injuries insurance scheme has exceeded income from contributions and the rate of 0.45 per cent is intended to ensure that the fund remains solvent. So far as the occupational injuries insurance scheme is concerned, therefore, the proposals are more than a straight forward conversion of the flat-rate contribution since they are designed also to rectify the deficit situation. The rate of 0.45 per cent will also be subject to confirmation or variation in the light of any new information on income distribution and benefit changes before April next.

Senators will note that the rates I have quoted include decimal fractions and the calculation of contributions by employers who do not have computerised payroll systems could pose difficulties. To facilitate such employers with their calculations, tables of contributions or ready reckoners will be provided.

The changeover from a weekly stamped card system to one under which contributions are payable only on payment of earnings necessitates some additional legislative changes, the most important of which relates to the contribution conditions for benefit under the social insurance system. These conditions require a specified number of contributions to have been paid. At present, a contribution is payable for a person in respect of every contribution week in which he is insurably employed. The number of contributions paid or the stamps on his record thus represents the number of contribution weeks during which he was insurably employed.

Under the new pay-related system. contributions will be payable only when payments of reckonable earnings up to the ceiling are made. When the ceiling is reached no further contributions will be due in that contribution year. Also, in the case of a person who is fully employed throughout the year and is paid monthly, for instance, only twelve contributions at most would be due in the year but these contributions would represent 52 weeks of insurable employment. Thus, the number of contributions will not necessarily be the same as the number of weeks of insurable employment in respect of which they are paid. It is consequently necessary in the various contribution conditions to substitute for the number of contributions paid, the number of weeks of insurable employment for which contributions have been paid or would have been paid but for the operation of the ceiling. This is provided for in section 13 of the Bill.

The new pay-related contribution system in terms of legislative provisions and administrative arrangements represents a major departure from the existing system. To ensure continuity between the two, section 20 enables transitional arrangements to be made by regulations. This provision will be availed of to ensure that the change-over is effected without any disruption in benefit entitlements. It will, for example, be necessary to provide for special contribution and benefit year arrangements for disability benefit and unemployment benefit purposes to cover the period up to the year 1981 when the preceding income tax year will for the first time be the governing contribution year for benefit purposes for both men and women.

These then are the main provisions being made in the Bill. Before finishing I should like to talk about some effects which these proposals will have.

To take firstly a specific case, female domestics in private employment are insured for all benefits of the social insurance system but are excluded from the pay-related benefit scheme at present because it was not possible to arrange for the collection of the 3 per cent pay-related contribution for them. Because of a more comprehensive system of collection now possible, they will be included in the new pay-related contribution system and will then be covered for pay-related benefit for the first time. The standard rate of contribution will apply to them.

For employees generally the new contribution system will eliminate the regressive aspects of the present flat-rate contribution system which bears heavily on the lower paid worker and will relate the level of contribution to ability to pay. It will also remove an anomalous situation arising in relation to the present £1.16 reduction in the contribution of employees earning less than £50 a week. A man earning say, £49.50 a week, is at present liable for a total social insurance contribution of £2.11 leaving his pay £47.39 net of that deduction. If his pay were increased to £50, his contribution would go up to £3.27, leaving him £46.73 after deduction, which is 66 pence less than he had before his pay was increased.

The new system, by scaling up the contribution directly and proportionally as pay increases, will prevent this happening. Employees on the higher pay levels will pay more under the new contribution system than by way of their present flat-rate and 1 per cent pay-related contribution. However, the new pay-related contribution will not be charged on earnings in excess of the ceiling and they will gain in another way. I propose by regulations to raise the ceiling applying to the pay-related benefit scheme from the commencement of the new contribution system from the present level of £2,500 to whatever ceiling is finally determined for contribution purposes and to maintain parity in future that is at present £5,000 per annum. So the £2,500 for the pay-related scheme will be doubled to £5,000 provided that £5,000 is the figure finally settled upon. Higher paid workers would benefit from this proposal which will give them higher overall payments of benefits when they are sick or unemployed.

With the ceiling and rates proposed, employees earning less than about £80 per week will pay less by way of social insurance contributions under the new system than under the flat-rate system. This will mean that, of the employees who will be paying contributions at the standard rate, about 500,000 will pay less by way of contribution under the new scheme while about 200,000 will pay more.

For employers, the new system will provide a simpler way of collecting the various "social" contributions payable and will relieve them of the work connected with the handling and safe custody of insurance cards and stamps. The existence, since 1974, of a dual system of collection of insurance contributions, with flat-rate contributions being collected largely by means of the sale of insurance stamps at post offices and pay-related contributions being collected in conjunction with the PAYE income tax system, has added to the expenses of employers as well as imposing an undue administrative burden on the insurance funds. The new system will thus eliminate duplication of work and reduce costs. It will also remove the complication and responsibility for employers of ensuring that the appropriate reduced rate of stamp is only used for those earning less than £50 a week.

In respect of an employee earning less than about £73 per week the employer's social insurance and occupational injuries insurance contribution will be reduced. How individual employers will be affected will depend on the numbers of employees they have whose earnings are above and below that figure.

For my Department, the new system will, in addition to the reduction in administrative costs to which I have referred, eliminate certain problems and difficulties associated with the existing card stamping system, including the question of security and fraud arising from the theft, counterfeiting or re-use of stamps. It will also facilitate computerised methods being employed in the processing of information, leading to a more efficient records system.

I should refer at this point to the effect which abolishing the present scheme will have for postmasters who are paid on the basis of the work which they do. About 60 per cent of income from flat-rate contributions is collected by way of insurance stamps sold at all post offices. Payment to postmasters at sub-post offices for this work now amounts to about £1.2 million a year and this is met from the insurance funds. The proportion of any individual postmaster's income deriving from work connected with the sale of insurance stamps depends on the extent of such sales.

This work will of course cease and its cessation would affect the remuneration of postmasters at sub-post offices. The Irish Postmasters' Union has raised this matter with the Department of Posts and Telegraphs and I understand that discussions are at present proceeding at the Postmasters' Conciliation Council which is the agreed body for dealing with the remuneration of postmasters.

The Green Paper "Development for Full Employment" points out that the need for a tighter system of control of expenditure implies that social welfare schemes are designed in the most effective way to cover the contingencies for which they are primarily intended. In this regard, as stated in the paper, a review of the existing provisions relating to exclusion from social insurance of subsidiary employments and employments of inconsiderable extent is being undertaken. This issue is of particular relevance in the context of the new pay-related system. The inclusion within the scope of the insurance system of employments of a minor nature on which the employees are not mainly dependent for their livelihood could result in a situation in which employees could work minimal hours and pay minimal contributions which would entitle them to flat-rate benefits on a par with full-time workers. The review will be completed and any necessary amendments to the existing regulations made before the new contribution scheme commences.

The outline which I have given of the proposed new system has of necessity been rather general. This is because many of the detailed arrangements of the scheme will be made by regulations. The working out of the finer points of a scheme such as this involves consultation between my Department, the Office of the Revenue Commissioners and other Departments concerned. Intensive examination of possible procedures and the requirements of my Department in operating the social insurance code is necessary to ensure that there will be no major teething troubles after 6 April next. The consultations have been in progress for some months now and whilst some work still remains to be done, the arrangements will be finalised in good time to enable the preparatory work of instructing employers in the working of the new contributions to be completed and the scheme successfully implemented from 6 April next.

The provisions contained in this Bill represent a major development in the modernisation and improvement of our welfare system and it is with great pleasure that I recommend the Bill to Seanad Éireann for its early and favourable consideration.

The Minister has delivered a very lengthy Second Stage speech on this Bill and I am sure he felt that all 18 pages were necessary so that we would be fully conversant with the complexities of social welfare contributions. There is a good deal of historical data here and a good deal of information on how the old method worked and how the Minister expects the new method to be an improvement on it. The Minister concluded:

The provisions contained in this Bill represent a major development in the modernisation and improvement of our welfare system....

and went on to say that he had great pleasure in recommending it to Seanad Éireann.

As I followed the Minister's speech I endeavoured to establish which parties would benefit from the passing of this measure. I got a clue in the second paragraph of page 1 of the Minister's speech where he said that it will benefit not only employees but also employers as well as the system of collecting contributions by his Department. I accept that this is to benefit the system of collecting contributions for the Department. There are to be benefits also for the employees and employers, but these, if any, are marginal.

By saying that this Bill represents a major development in the modernisation and improvement in our welfare system. the Minister conveys that there are benefits to the people who avail of the social welfare services. That is not the case. There may be benefits but they are marginal. The major benefits in this Bill are administrative. The Minister explained that under the old system there were two social insurance funds and there were three methods through which contributions were channelled to these funds, the flat-rate, the pay-related system and the occupational injuries system. In so far as this Bill will tidy up this system of contributions it represents an improvement in the social welfare system, as the Minister says. But having listened to the Minister's speech and having read the Bill, it is clear that the major purpose of the Bill is to streamline the collection of social welfare contributions. I have no objection whatsoever to that and I have no reservations about it, but I have reservations about conveying the impression to the people who depend on social welfare, or the people who may be in receipt of social welfare, that there are major developments for them because of the passing of this Bill.

The collection of contributions by the Revenue Commissioners through the PAYE system will enable revenue to be collected easier and faster. By raising the ceiling to £5,000 per annum, more people will contribute and consequently more revenue will flow into this fund. A provision to ensure that the contributions relate to the benefits that are available to people on social welfare is missing from the Bill. This was an opportunity for the Minister to have looked at the question of revising the social welfare code and to avail of this opportunity to tie benefits to the level of contributions. The essence of any insurance policy is that benefits should relate to the premiums and to the contributions paid. The fact that the Bill does not go far enough in that direction is a disappointment to me. The Minister should have availed of this opportunity to reform the social welfare code. There are, as the Minister mentioned, inequalities in the social welfare code and there are certainly weaknesses in it. The opportunity was there and for some reason it was passed up.

I also got the impression from reading the Bill that under this Bill a substantial number of people, perhaps something in the region of 200,000, will find that they are paying more contributions for the same benefits that they enjoy today. If I am wrong in that impression I will be happy to be corrected. I understand that in the Bill there is provision to eliminate differences between the rate of contribution between men and women and between ordinary work and agricultural work. I have no complaint about that but once that happened and they were all brought into line, it would have been desirable that the benefit would apply equally across the board. I do not believe that benefits will apply equally across the board. For example, the woman who found herself unemployed would enjoy unemployment benefit for only approximately half the period a man in similar circumstances would. I wonder why the Minister did not avail of the opportunity to eliminate that measure of discrimination in the social welfare code. If this scheme was in operation for the past year, and a man was paying contributions on earnings up to £5,000 per annum, and he reached retirement age and qualified for the old age pension, despite the fact that he was paying contributions on a wage of £5,000 per annum, having gone over to the old age pension, would his benefit on a contributory pension still be in the region of £16 per week? As I said earlier, there was an opportunity here for the Minister to review the social welfare code in general. Improvements could have been made that are not being made. I accept that in so far as this Bill will streamline the collection of the revenue to the social welfare funds it will certainly achieve its main purpose. We would be unfair to convey the impression to the people who may benefit from social welfare that apart from the advantage of putting the collection of the contributions on an effective and efficient footing, there are major improvements within this Bill for them, because there are not. Its main purpose is to streamline the collection of contributions to the social welfare fund.

This Bill deals with the mechanics of administration. It changes the method by which the social welfare contribution is collected and it changes the amount to be paid by the employer and the employee. It will be a fair system in that it relates the contribution payable by the worker to his ability to earn. The lower paid worker will, therefore, benefit; he will benefit in addition to the benefit he already enjoys by the £1 per week reduction for workers earning under £50 per week which the Minister introduced last January. It will be a more comprehensive system because it will do away with the cards which could, and did, get lost in transit and about which many people feared there was the risk of abuse.

I intend to be brief in my speech on this Bill because the Bill is comprehensive and deals with all aspects of administration. The Minister in his speech has also been most comprehensive. It is not appropriate on this Bill to speak of social welfare benefits except in a very general way.

In a general way I see the need for a system of monitoring increases in contributions and benefits, in so far as they relate to the rise in the cost of living. In the period 1975 to 1976, for example, the rise in the consumer price index was 16.2 per cent while the rise in the cost of the stamp was 25 per cent. In the period 1976 to 1977 the rise in the consumer price index was 14 per cent and the rise in the cost of the stamp was 18 per cent. It is fairly clear that rises in contribution levels must relate to the rises in benefits, and both should relate to rises in the cost of living.

The welfare functions of the Departments of Health and Social Welfare overlap to some extent. In these two key areas the face of bureaucracy should be seen to be a particularly benign one. Ignorance, in people who are not quite sure of the benefits to which they are entitled, often brings an aggressive attitude, whereas this needs to be dealt with in an understanding way by officials. Many people, particularly old age pensioners, are confused and unsure of benefits to which they feel they may be entitled. I had the experience recently of acting as the executor of the will of an old age pensioner who left an elderly widow. As the House will be aware, one of the benefits to which old age pensioners are entitled is free electricity. Old age pensioners do not get a bill, but in place of a bill they get a form which sets out the number of units to which they are entitled and the number of units which they have consumed. Within a week of this man's death he got a bill with a demand for immediate payment. I, as the executor of the will, had to get in touch with the Electricity Supply Board. The official there told me that the reason the man got the bill was because he had died. While I applaud their faith in hoping to collect money from a dead man, I deplore this sort of crazy logic which insisted that until the claim of the widow, who would have been entitled to free electricity, was processed, they were obliged to send out this bill. This is not a very sensible thing to do. It creates a great deal of distress.

My only criticism of this Bill is that I would have liked to see some encouragement to self-employed people to become involved in social welfare and health insurance. The self-employed, by the very nature of their earnings, find insurance of any sort a luxury which they very often cannot afford. In that regard I would like to see some progress, and some encouragement being offered to them.

I welcome this Bill as a step in the direction of rationalising the whole social welfare system.

The Minister has gone to great pains to explain the nature of this new Social Welfare Bill, but as explained by the two previous speakers it is entirely an administrative organ dealing with the collection of the contributions from the insured persons. It is very difficult to assess the financial advantages which would be minimal. The contributions are never the great factor in an insured person's livelihood, or in his employment. What the insured person always looks to is not his contributions but the benefits that the contributions entitle him to. The matter of designating the level of these benefits is a matter more for the Minister for Finance than the Minister for Social Welfare, but the Minister for Social Welfare would have to be fully conscious of all the problems to which that category of our population have been exposed. The previous speaker referred to a problem very prominent throughout the community. The old age pensioner and his wife had enjoyed free electricity but the moment the death of the old age pensioner occurs, because the other partner had not reached old age pension age, the free electricity is discontinued. This is a matter that the Minister should look at, to see that something they enjoyed when they had double income is something that should be continued when the income is reduced to half.

Our social welfare image is not good in relation to international standards and I am sure the Minister is aware of this and will be doing his utmost in the revision of benefits to ensure that that image will be improved.

There are a number of sectors which still have not been touched on such as the insurance of the self-employed. This is very important and I thought the Minister would have mentioned it this afternoon: the provision of an income-related pension scheme for industrial workers. This is a very long overdue social welfare provision that should be applicable to approximately a half million of our industrial workers but which they still do not enjoy other than the flat rate of social welfare pension which bears no relation at present generally and particularly in the future will have no resemblance to the level of remuneration prior to retirement.

I accept that we are not directly entitled to speak in relation to the administration of the system here other than the mechanics of the collection of the contribution and there are some obvious defects that I would like the Minister to bear in mind. One is the position in regard to appeals and I am particularly concerned with appeals concerning unemployment assistance. There is very protracted delay, running into many months, after which the continuation of benefits has been decided on before such a person's appeal gets to decision stage. Secondly, there is an aspect that I think the Minister should note: very many such people look for an oral hearing where evidence is taken on oath and they do not get this. In the absence of that oral hearing the evidence of some person who is unknown to them and the circumstances in which he got his evidence is unknown to them should be made available to the person whose benefits are denied and discontinued. I would ask the Minister to bear this in mind and to encourage the practice as far as possible that any person prepared to go in and have an oral hearing to defend the continuation should be given the opportunity to do so before an appeals officer. In the vast majority of such cases the decision is made without relevance to the person being present or the evidence he would have to offer.

The other aspect is the protracted delay when disability benefit is terminated before a medical referee is called in. Again, the benefit is discontinued and a man and his family are obliged to carry on for a substantial number of weeks before he is called before a medical referee and a decision reached. This is a matter which from a humane aspect should be looked at with sympathy to see if it can be remedied.

What the Minister is doing today in streamlining the administration and the mechanics of collection, is expanding on the introduction of the 1974 pay-related system which for the first time brought the Revenue Commissioners into the collection system. This was a long overdue benefit which has brought extensive dividends to those who are unemployed or on sick leave. But I would pose one situation to the Minister where there is some dissatisfaction. A person can go on in employment up to 66 years of age and then leave. His only benefit is his contributory old age pension. He may have contributed for a number of years to the pay-related system but he cannot benefit from those contributions within the existing structure of the contributory old age pension. This is an inducement to such individuals to go out a year or 15 months earlier—because pay-related benefits extends over 15 months—in order to get what they would regard as a benefit for which they are eligible and which they have contributed towards over a number of years. I would ask the Minister to examine whether there is any way of overcoming that shortcoming as regards contributory old age pensioners.

I am sure the Minister is aware of the position in regard to the distribution of the free butter to assistance cases and its denial to contributory cases. No two pensioners living adjacent to each other in a housing estate can understand how one householder is entitled to it and the other is not. The fact that they were contributors gives them the feeling that they have a greater entitlement to it than those on assistance. I feel it is necessary to bring these matters to the Minister's attention to ensure that he is aware of what we consider are very serious defects in the existing social welfare system.

I think this Bill is welcome to both employers and employees. First, the employers are relieved of certain administrative problems, of all the stamps they have to keep records of and, secondly, they are relieved of the danger of losing those stamps, the value of which can be very considerable. Thirdly, there is the question of being able to employ a person for a very short period, one day or two days. Today that is prevented by the cost of the stamp; the deduction from the employee leaves him too little for it to be worth his while and the deduction from the employer puts too great a cost on him for it to be worth his while. By the deduction being related to the payment for the work done it is fairer and there is more possibility of employment. In other words, the old stamp to a certain extent was a tax on employment which is now being removed. Obviously, to employees, it is a fairer system because it is related to their capability of paying. The more you earn the more you pay and there is relief on the lower paid workers which is also acceptable. In the administration of it I do not think there will be any difficulty about the employer supplying the Revenue Commissioners with the information required because already employers are asked—as I envisage it will be asked for—the information in relation to the pay-related scheme. They have to keep records to supply those answers.

There are a couple of questions I would like to ask the Minister. One, is that I am not quite clear on concurrent employment, how the employer knows the level. He has got to stop it from the employee if he does not know the level of earnings with the other employer. In the employer's case, he pays the full amount——

Dual employment— they both pay up to the limit.

But do they deduct from the employee up to the limit also? And how will one employer know how much the other employer is deducting?

It does not matter. In the second employment you only deduct the employer's contribution and you deduct it up to the limit.

The other point is that I think there is an element in the present stamp, which is, I think, 50p per week related to health. Will that still be in this pay-related scheme?

You will have a Bill next week which will provide a new health contribution of 1 per cent of income.

Thank you. I welcome the Bill.

Once again, I am grateful to the Seanad for the objective way in which they have received this legislation and for the comments which they have made, all of which have been helpful and constructive. Senator Howard made the main contribution and I will deal with a couple of points which he made.

Generally speaking, this Bill deals with the collection side of things, with the contributions, the payment of contributions. It is not intended to deal with benefits. The review of the benefits and their adjustment to meet changes in cost of living is a matter for the budget when the annual review takes place, and that will take place in the context of next year's budget, the same as usual. This Bill is really concerned with the other side of the coin, namely the collection of contributions. There are, nevertheless, a couple of important benefits for different categories of persons in this legislation, even though generally speaking it is intended to improve the collection side.

First of all, there is an improvement on the pay-related benefit side. Senator Howard suggested 200,000 workers approximately would pay more and will get the same benefit. Now these 200,000 workers to whom he refers would be the higher paid workers and they will pay a little more all right under the pay-related provision. On the other hand, they will gain very considerably on the pay-related benefits side. The ceiling for pay-related at the moment is £2,500. That will be doubled now to £5,000. The pay-related benefits will be calculated on a figure from £14 a week to £100 a week instead of from £14 a week up to £50 a week as it is at present. So there will be that very considerable benefit for them.

There is another class of course which will gain and that is the female domestic employee. At the moment they are excluded altogether from pay-related benefit and they will now come in for the first time. Apart from that there is a very, very considerable benefit for a very large number of lower paid workers. In fact, that is the main advantage of the scheme from an economic point of view and a social point of view.

Across the board a very large number, half a million of lower paid workers, will gain by virtue of the fact that their contribution, their own personal contribution, will be lowered and the contribution which the employer will make in regard to them will also be lowered. This should be a general boost to labour intensive industries. I know that my colleague, the Minister for Industry, Commerce and Energy, Deputy O'Malley, has been anxiously awaiting this legislation. He is very concerned with the problems confronting labour intensive industries which by and large employ lower paid workers. He welcomes very much this legislation coming into effect because it will have a very good stimulatory effect in so far as labour intensive industry employers and lower paid workers will be concerned.

Senator Howard and Senator Moynihan made a reference to a couple of points which are important in regard to the existing benefit situation. There are certain disadvantages in the existing scheme of things. First of all, there is the vexed question of discrimination which exists against married women in regard to unemployment benefit and disability benefit. As you know, the Government are committed to a steady programme aimed at eliminating these discriminatory elements is so far as women are concerned in the social welfare code. We have already started with the elimination of discrimination in so far as single women and widows are concerned. That has been done this year. Now we have to go on to the next stage which is the discriminatory elements so far as married women are concerned. They consist of disadvantages for married women in the personal rates, the time and there is also a very considerable restriction on married women in so far as dependants are concerned.

Senators may not be aware but we had a Council meeting of Ministers of Social Affairs in Brussels on Monday and at that a directive was adopted by the Council that now makes it mandatory on all the countries concerned, nine countries, to eliminate these final remaining discriminatory elements within six years. The elimination of these things in the social welfare code is a problem for us. It was also quite clear to me in Brussels that it was a problem for other countries as well, countries much richer than we are. The Ministers were not prepared to settle for less than six years. It gives Senators an indication of the fact that for all of them, and for us of course, the main problem is finance and cost. Once you start moving, as Senators know, in the social welfare area, because of the numbers involved, costs are always very high. We are committed. First of all we are committed in Government and we are now compelled by the EEC directive to move forward in this area and gradually eliminate all these final remaining elements of discrimination against married women.

Senator Cassidy raised a point regarding a particular anomaly, which Senator Moynihan supported, and that was the question of the free electricity allowance where a contributory old age pensioner dies and is survived by a widow. There are a number of snags of that sort which arise in the administration of different schemes. The only thing we can do is to keep on trying to iron them out, particularly ones that do not cost a great deal of money. I will have to look into this particular point because there should not be any problem here. If the contributory old age pensioner dies his widow should automatically be entitled to a widow's pension and this benefit should immediately follow. There should be no interruption. There may be, because of some administrative snarl up.

She must have reached the age of 66.

But she would be entitled to a widow's pension by virtue of the fact that he was a contributory old age pensioner.

She will not qualify for free electricity.

I do not think there is any unsurmountable problem there but we will see. Senator Moynihan also mentioned a couple of points which, as he recognised himself, are more relevant to a budget discussion because they deal with the benefit side of things and the administration of the scheme generally. The points he mentioned are certainly things that crop up from time to time and about which we receive representations and which we will have to try to deal with as we come to them. One thing that can arise is where you have an old age pensioner who, through no fault of his own, has been over-paid because his means have increased. It very often can happen in rural areas that an old age pensioner on a non-contributory old age pension can have an increase in his means and not be aware of the fact that he should have disclosed this increase and later on it transpires that he has been over-paid his non-contributory old age pension as a result. It did happen in the past that those over-payments were, on his death, claimed from his estate and the estate was deemed to include the pension payable, perhaps to his widow. So you have the situation where the Department would be reclaiming from the pension of the widow over-payments made in respect of the deceased husband. We have straightened that one out. It is the sort of anomaly that does crop up and arises from time to time through nobody's fault really.

As these things arise we must deal with them and try to provide solutions for them. In the same way I hope to be able to have an examination carried out of the points raised by Senator Cassidy and Senator Moynihan and see if we can provide reasonable and satisfactory solutions. Nobody wants to have a sort of Scrooge mentality, particularly where old age pensioners and widows are concerned.

I think the Seanad as a whole would strongly support action which we would take to eliminate fraud or abuse particularly on the unemployment side, but I do not think that anybody, my Department or the Department of Finance, want us to be miserly in our approach to the old age pensions, particularly non-contributory old age pensions. Senator Moynihan raised the point of the delay in regard to disability benefit. That delay is almost entirely due to the fact that we did not have an adequate team of medical referees. For many years now we have been short of medical referees but we now have a full compliment. We have now been authorised in my Department to provide a full compliment of medical referees. They will shortly be coming on stream and we hope that all these disability benefit appeals will be dealt with right up to date when we get these referees fully active.

Senator Moynihan also raised the question of the butter scheme, a very legitimate point. It was I who went after the Commission to get this scheme inaugurated of subsidised butter for the assistance classes. As Senators know, in previous years the subsidised butter was made available for the community at large and the social welfare classes just had to take their place in the queue and very often were not very successful in that process. This year we took the initiative in my Department to get this subsidised butter made available especially for social welfare classes. Unfortunately, the Community insist that it be confined to assistance classes. We will keep on returning to that situation to see if we can get it extended, but as of now it is a Community decision, it does not lie with us, and the Community have insisted that it must be confined to the assistance classes. I appreciate the difficulty when Senator Moynihan is trying to explain to two old age pension households, one on assistance and one contributory, why one is entitled to get the subsidised butter and the other is not. He will have some difficulty in explaining that. At the moment the only thing he can do is to put the blame on Brussels. To the extent that we can, we will continue to press to have it extended to the contributory classes, in addition. The existing scheme whereby the butter is made available to the community at large is also being operated this year but at least we have isolated a certain proportion of it for the welfare classes and that is, I think, a considerable improvement on previous years. I do recognise that there is not much justification in confining it, certainly as far as pensioners are concerned, to the assistance classes.

I do not think, a Chathaoirleach, that there were any other points raised by Senators but when I study the debate I will certainly take note of all the points raised and see what we can do about the different complaints and certainly try to improve the administration of the social welfare system. The greatest improvement, of course, that we can make in social welfare is by giving more money, by increasing the rates. Short of that, there are a number of other little things that can be ironed out and it is always useful to have this sort of debate in the Seanad or in the Dáil because individual Deputies and Senators can give us the benefit of their own experience and draw our attention to particular anomalies or unfair practices which have crept in. As far as these have been mentioned in the debate the Seanad can be sure that we will look into them all carefully and see what can be done.

I am grateful to the Seanad for their approach to this legislation. It is an important step forward. It has a number of very definite administrative advantages both from the point of view of the Department and of the employers. I think it also has a general overall economic advantage for the community as a whole, particularly in so far as labour intensive industries are concerned and it has a very important effect on the general body of workers in that lower paid workers will pay less and all workers will now pay in relation to what they are earning and they will not have this flat rate obligatory stamp no matter what their income is.

Question put and agreed to.
Agreed to take remaining Stages today.
Bill put through Committee, received for final consideration and passed.
The Seanad adjourned at 8.30 p.m. until 10.30 a.m. on Thursday, 30 November 1978.
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