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Seanad Éireann debate -
Wednesday, 14 Nov 1979

Vol. 93 No. 2

National Council for Educational Awards Bill, 1978: Second Stage.

Question proposed: "That the Bill be now read a Second Time."

Is Bille an-thábhachtach é seo agus tá áthas orm gur le mo linn-se mar Aire a chuirfear an Bille seo ar Rolla na nDlí. Má chuimhnítear orm in aon chor sna blianta atá le teacht, tá súil agam gur i leith an Bhille seo a chuimhneofar orm. I mo thuairim-se is bun-chloch í sa chóras oideachais agus beidh tionchar an-mhór aici ar an gcóras sin as seo amach. Mar is eol díbh, dar ndoigh, is é cuspóir an Bhille seo go hacomair ná bonn dlíthiúil a thabhairt do Chomhairle Náisiúnta na gCáilíochtaí Oideachais atá ag feidhmiú ar bhonn ad hoc ó Márta 1972 i leith. Pádraig Ó Fachtna, T.D., a bhí ina Aire Oideachais ag an am sin agus thuig sé go rí-mhaith nach raibh an córas a bhí ann maidir le cáilíochtaí a bhronnadh dóthainneach dos na coláistí a bhí ann ag an am agus nach bhféadfaí é a leathnú chun riachtanaisí na gcoláistí nua ag an dtríú leibhéal a shásamh. B'shin é an fáth gur bhunaigh sé Comhairle Náisiúnta na gCáiliochtaí Oideachais agus is so-fheicthe anois cé chomh críonna is a bhí an tionscnamh sin.

Le linn do'n Comhrialtas a bheith in oifig, bhí a lán cur agus cúiteamh faoi'n gceist seo agus cinneadh i Mí na Nollag 1974 nár chóir cumhacht a thabhairt don Chomhairle céimeanna a bhronnadh agus nuair a bheadh céimeanna le bronnadh ar mhic léinn ó na coláistí den tríú leibhéal taobh amuigh des na hollscoileanna go gcaithfí na hollscoileanna a shásamh agus gurb iad na hollscoileanna a bhronnfadh aon chéimeanna a bheadh le bronnadh. Níor aontaigh mé leis an mbreith sin ag an am agus thugamar le fíos i rith an toghacháin i Samhradh 1977 go n-athrófaí an breith sin nuair a fhillfeadh Fianna Fáil ar oifig mar rialtas.

I ráiteas a d'eisigh mé i Samhain 1977 dúirt mé go raibh gach gné den scéal pléite ag an Rialtas agus go rabhamar-na lán tsásta go rithfeadh sé le leas na nollscoileanna chomh maith le leas na gcoláistí eile ag an dtríú leibhéal cumhacht chun céimeanna a bhronnadh a thabhairt thar nais do Chomhairle Náisiúnta na gCáiliochtaí Oideachais. Rinneamar amhlaidh agus cinntítear an breith sin sa Bhille seo. Cé go bhfuil an gné sin den scéal an-thábhachtach ó thaobh bharr an structúir, is den riachtanas í freisin go mbeadh córas náisiúnta ann chun cáiliochtaí ag leibhéal an teastais agus an diploma a bhronnadh ar mhic léinn a éiríonn leo i gcúrsaí aitheanta i réimse éigin den teicneolaíocht. Clúdaíonn an Bille na cáilíochtaí sin freisin. I gcás na gcailíochtaí seo go léir, tá sé fíor-thábhachtach go mbeadh meas othru sa tír seo agus i dtíortha eile agus sin é an fáth go bhfuílím chomh ghabhtha sin sa Bhille le ceisteanna maidir le caighdeán na gcúrsaí agus seasamh na gcáilíochtaí ón gcomhairle. Tá gach iarracht déanta agam ionadaíocht ar an gcomhairle féin a bheith comh leathan agus is féidir, ó thaobh saol eacnamaíochta na tíre chomh maith le hinstitiúidí oideachais. Níl sé éascaí an ionadaíocht ceart d'fháil i gcás chomhairle den tsaghas seo ach measaim go bhfuil an t-ionadaíocht atá molta sa Bhille seo go maith agus cé go bhféadfaí locht éigin d'fháil air, is dócha, bheadh an scéal mar an gcéanna maidir le aon tairiscint eile ina leith seo. Tá an cothramaíocht ceart, measaim. Glacfar leis go ginireálta go gcaithfidh an Chomhairle Náisiúnta, nuair a bheidh siad ag pleanáil agus ag comhordonú cúrsaí, áird a thabhairt ar chostaisí i leith a bhfuil faoi chaibidil acu. Faoi Acht um Ard-Oideachas, 1971, tá sé de dhualgas ar an Údarás um Ard-Oideachas comhairle a thabhairt do'n Aire Oideachais faoin ghá atá le hinstitiúidí nua ard oideachas, cén saghas institiúidí ba chóir a bhunú agus cé'n saghas structúir ba chóir a bheith acu. Chomh maith le sin, ní misde do'n Údarás léirmheas a dhéanamh go rialta ar an t-éileamh agus an gá atá ann d'ard oideachas. Tá sé de réir tuisciona mar sin gur trí'n Údarás a thabharfaidh Comhairle Náisiúnta na gCáilíochtaí Oideachais comhairle don Aire i leith costais na gcúrsaí atá á moladh acu agus costais pé athruithe a bheadh ag teastáil in aon chúrsa ionas go bhféadfadh an chomhairle glacadh leis. Tá an socrú sin idir an Comhairle agus an Údarás i bhfeidhm le achar réasúnta fada cheana féin agus tá ag éirí go geal leis.

On the Second Reading of this Bill, I feel that I should sketch in for the House the history of this development. The Steering Committee of Technical Education in a report submitted to the Minister for Education in April 1967 said:

One of the ways in which demand could be stimulated would be to give due recognition to the various awards to be obtained in the Regional Colleges. We recommend the establishment of a National Council for Educational Awards, responsible for (1) setting standards of admission to, and qualification from, courses in technical education; (2) approving examination syllabuses in appropriate courses provided in Regional Colleges or other technical schools; (3) awarding certificates and diplomas to those successful in approved examinations; and (4) negotiating reciprocal recognition of equivalent qualifications with other countries, particularly Britain and the EEC. At the highest levels, the Council would discharge functions similar to those of the Council for National Academic Awards in Britain, but it would also be responsible for the awards at technician and crafts levels. It would be duly representative of educational and professional institutions, industrial, commercial and cultural interests and the appropriate State Departments.

In their first report which related to the year 1968-69, the Higher Education Authority expressed concern about the status of technological and technician education in this country and drew attention to the need for national recognition for that part of the educational system. They said that they had raised with the Minister for Education during a discussion with him the question of establishing a National Council for Awards and that the Minister had asked them to furnish him with a report in the matter.

The Authority stated that when they were examining the general situation in regard to higher education in this country, they encountered a well-established demand and, in some areas, a long felt need for further and more advanced technological and other specialised third-level courses. That there was such a demand and need on the part of industry and of students, actual and potential, had been the experience, in the first place, of the colleges of technology which were immediately and directly involved in the matter. That the existence of this demand and need had already been confirmed by two studies carried out under the aegis of OECD—"Investment in Education" and "The Training of Technicians in Ireland".

The Higher Education Authority were satisfied that if technological education was, in accordance with its function, to keep in step with the growth of the country's economy, its content must be further upgraded and the scope of its operation extended. The Authority considered that a serious impediment to the upgrading and extension of technological education and hence to its attraction for potential students was its lack of a range of national awards in the form of certificates, diplomas and degrees.

The Authority considered it possible that, at first glance, it might be thought that amending legislation which would enable universities to give degrees or other appropriate awards to suitable students of technological education institutions would be a solution, particularly as many technological courses were comparable in content and standard to those given in universities. The colleges of technology already produced science graduates and fully qualified architects and engineers as well as occasionally providing courses in specialised fields for their own and university personnel at post-graduate level.

The Authority considered, however, that there was a basic difference in primary function between the universities and the technological institutes and that it would to a substantial extent be a departure from the nature and aim of a technological institution for it to have its curriculum and methods conform to university requirements. The Authority mentioned also that a technological institution, while providing courses of degree standard for a certain proportion of its students, must also serve students who have completed an adequate post-primary education, but have not fulfilled university entrance requirements, or may not desire to follow a university course but wish instead to proceed to third-level education in certain other specialised fields.

It should be emphasised, the Authority said, that technological education was not to be considered as confined to the teaching of industrial and commercial skills. Every course of that kind should have an appropriate element of the humanities. It was understood, however, that in the organising of this ancillary element the prospect of the practical applications in industry, commerce and the professions of the knowledge thus acquired had to be kept firmly in view.

Having due regard to the considerations to which I have referred the Higher Education Authority came to the conclusion that if technological education were properly to serve its students and function in the fullest interest of the economy, a concrete step towards this should be the establishment of a council for national awards, with the safeguard that the standard of the diplomas and degrees awarded by it be in no way inferior to those of the universities. It considered that the council should be given powers on the following lines:

(1) to grant certificates, diplomas and degress to persons who had successfully completed courses of study at third-level educational institutions other than universities;

(2) to determine the conditions governing the grant of such awards;

(3) to approve courses of study to be pursued in order to qualify for such awards, including, where appropriate, arrangements for industrial and commercial experience in association with such a source.

Having considered the Report of the Higher Education Authority and all other relevant considerations the Government decided in February 1972 to set up the National Council for Educational Awards. This council was established on an ad hoc basis for a period of three years from March, 1972 with the following terms of reference:

General Function

1. To promote, facilitate, encourage, co-ordinate and develop technical, industrial, commercial, technological, professional and scientifc education and, in association with these, liberal education.

Particular Functions

2. To grant and confer certificates, diplomas, degress and other awards to and on persons who shall have pursued at educational institutions recognised by the council courses approved by it under conditions approved by it and who shall, to the satisfaction of the council, have passed examinations and/or other tests set or prescribed by the council appropriate to the courses of study as aforesaid.

3. To grant and confer certificates, diplomas, degrees and other awards to and on persons who at the time of the establishment of the council were pursuing at educational institutions courses of study approved by the council under conditions approved by it and who, subsequent to the establishment of the council shall to the satisfaction of the council have passed examinations and/or other tests set or prescribed by the council appropriate to the courses of study as aforesaid;

4. To award and confer degrees to and on persons who to the satisfaction of the council, shall have carried out research at a standard approved by the council under conditions approved by the council at or under the supervision of educational institutions;

5. To appoint from time to time such and so many boards of studies as it considers necessary for the proper exercise of its functions and to assign from time to time to these boards of studies the supervision of such areas of study as it may deem fit.

The ad hoc council consisted of a chairman, 21 ordinary members appointed by the Minister for Education, three additional ordinary members co-opted by the council by resolution and a director who was also a member of the council. The constitution of the 21 members appointed by the Minister was as follows:

Seven members holding academic posts in universities;

six members with teaching experience in a higher education institution other than a university, at least three of whom held teaching posts in such institutions;

five members having experience in industry, agriculture, commerce, public administration or related fields;

three members having experience in post primary education.

In the first annual report, 1972/73, of the National Council for Educational Awards, the chairman in the foreword to the report stated that the establishment of the council marked an entirely new and very significant development in relation to third-level education in Ireland. He stated that for the first time in our history it was now possible to give authoritative national recognition and status to third level non-university educational institutions and to their students who passed examinations and tests of the standard approved by the council. This recognition was to be expressed in the national certificates, diplomas and degrees which the council was empowered to award. The council believed that this would lead to a more widespread appreciation, both nationally and internationally, of the very important contribution made by these institutions to economic, social and cultural development and would significantly enhance their general standing.

The National Coalition Government in connection with their decisions of 14 December 1974 on higher education decided that the National Council for Educational Awards should not be given the power to award degrees. The council as reconstituted in December 1975 was not formally given this power. In view of the fact, however, that a degree level course in hotel and catering management in the regional technical college in Galway was already under way at the time of the reconstitution of the council and since no university was as yet in a position to validate the course in question, the National Council for Educational Awards was empowered to award degrees to students who successfully completed this course in 1976 and 1977. The intention was, however, that in non-university institutions, where degrees were to be awarded to students, such awards were to be made by the universities.

This was the situation when I became Minister for Education in 1977 and my first consideration had to be to set the situation right by restoring its degree awarding function to the NCEA and establishing an appropriate basis for the establishment of the council under statutory authority. I now propose to summarise the main provisions of the Bill as it has been presented. While for this purpose I shall refer to some sections of the Bill I do not propose to go into detail in relation to such sections beyond the point of indicating their relationship to the general purpose of the Bill.

I should draw attention to the interpretation of institution in section 1 of the Bill. It is stated that an institution to which this act applies means—

(a) An Choláiste Náisiúnta Ealaíne is Deartha,

(b) the National Institute for Higher Education, Dublin,

(c) the National Institute for Higher Education, Limerick,

(d) Thomond College of Education, Limerick,

(e) any regional technical college,

(f) any institution specified by an order made under section 20 of the Act by the Minister.

Since there is only one institution in existence of the kind referred to at (a), (b), (c) and (d), it is appropriate that the name of the institution should be given. In the case of (e) the individual regional technical colleges are not named as they come under the composite definition of the category of colleges referred to. The provision at (f) allows for the recognition of any other institutions specified in an order made by the Minister and is necessary to meet the situation of colleges to be included for the purpose of the acceptance by the NCEA of courses being followed in them whether these colleges are already in existence or whether they come into existence at a later date. This degree of flexibility is necessary in the existing circumstances.

Section 2 states that the council shall be known in the Irish language as Comhairle Náisiúnta na gCáilíochtaí Oideachais and in the English language as the National Council for Educational Awards. It is to perform the functions assigned it by this Act.

The general functions of the council as set out in section 3 are to encourage, facilitate, promote, co-ordinate and develop technical, industrial, scientific, technological and commercial education, and education in art or design, provided outside the universities, whether professional, vocational or technical, and to encourage and promote liberal education.

Subsection (2) of section 3 specifies some particular functions of the council. These include the function of conferring degrees, diplomas, certificates or other educational awards to or on persons who—

(1) the Council is satisfied have attended or otherwise pursued or followed courses of study or instruction conducted by, or provided under supervision of, an institution to which the Act applies and which are courses which for the time being stand approved of by the council, and

(2) have either attained a standard regarded by the council as satisfactory in examinations or other tests of knowledge or ability which are either prescribed or set by the council or which for the time being stand so approved of and relate to such courses or have performed in a manner regarded by the council as satisfactory other exercises approved of by the council, or

(3) the council is satisfied have attained an acceptable standard other than by way of (1) and (2) and have carried out under the supervision of an institution to which the Act applies and in a manner regarded as satisfactory by the council, a programme of research approved of by the council.

The council may also recognise a degree, diploma, certificate or other educational award conferred, granted, or given to persons who successfully complete the courses referred to or approve of such courses of study or instruction if it is satisfied that the standard in general of both:

(1) a particular course of study or instruction conducted by, or provided under the supervision of, an institution to which the Act applies and relating to professional, scientific or vocational education—which course may be concerned with liberal arts; and

(2) the examinations or other tests of knowledge or ability conducted in relation to such a course

corresponds or is analogous to any relevant standards for the time being in force in universities.

Subsection (3) of section 3 (2) states that the council may assess the standard maintained for the time being by any institution to which the Act applies as regards any course of study or instruction approved by the council.

For the purpose of promoting degrees, diplomas, certificates or other educational awards conferred by it, the council may:

(1) take such steps as it considers appropriate either within or outside the State,

(2) co-ordinate, or assist in co-ordinating, in such manner as it considers appropriate, any two or more courses of study or instruction conducted by, or provided under the supervision of, one or more institutions to which the Act applies,

(3) for the purpose of enabling students to attend or otherwise pursue or follow particular courses, assist the transfer of students from one such institution to another such institution.

I attach very considerable importance to these provisions in relation to the steps which the council may take to promote its degrees and other awards within or outside the State. I may assure the council that it will have the full support of the Minister for Education in this matter. I anticipate that it will have also the support of educational authorities and other professional groups which will be affected in relation to the recognition of qualifications awarded by the NCEA. I would expect that there would be no reluctance in regard to the promotion of these qualifications and advice to students to follow courses leading to them in substitution for qualifications which may have been sought after from outside the country hitherto. This is because of the absence of the appropriate provisions for a fully satisfactory range of qualifications certified and available within the country.

I consider it also extremely important that arrangements should be worked out to facilitate the transfer of students as appropriate from one institution to another and the co-ordination of courses between the regional technical colleges and the national institutes for higher education, as well as where appropriate the National College of Art and Design, and, in certain instances, the universities, to facilitate the students and secure the maximum opportunities for advancement throughout the whole range of third-level education.

It should be noted that under subsection (2) of section 3 the council may, through the higher education authority, advise the Minister in relation to the cost of providing, or continuing to provide, or the financing of any course of study or instruction approved of by the council or the cost of modifying any course of study or instruction to the extent necessary to secure its approval by the council.

It will be generally accepted that the NCEA in planning and co-ordinating courses will need to take into account at the same time the financial consequences of such planning and co-ordination. Under the Higher Education Act, 1971, the HEA has responsibility for advising the Minister of the need or otherwise for the establishment of new institutions of higher education and the nature and form of these institutions and it must also maintain a continuous review of the demand and need for higher education. It is appropriate, accordingly, that it is through the Higher Education Authority that the council would advise the Minister in relation to the cost of providing or financing of courses approved by it or the cost of modifying any courses of study or instruction to the extent necessary to secure its approval by the council.

Section 3 (3) provides that the Minister may by order assign additional functions of a kindred nature to the council but any such order cannot be brought into force until a resolution approving of the draft order has been passed by each House of the Oireachtas. Section 3 (4) requires the council to endeavour to promote the national aims of restoring the Irish language and preserving and developing the national culture. Section 3 (5) confirms the validity of acts done by the present council in so far as they relate to awards made and courses approved of.

The Council is to consist of a chairman, the director and 23 other members. Section 5 sets out the procedure for the appointment of the members of the council other than the chairman and director. In this connection I should emphasise that the provision made in this article is for the purpose of establishing a council which would be best able to discharge the functions being assigned to it under section 3. The individual members are not being appointed to promote the particular individual interest of any separate institution and their allegiance is to the council and not to the institution on the recommendation of which they may have been appointed by the Government.

Any division of representation on the council will be criticised on one basis or another. Tá sé seo ráite cheana féin agam as Gaeilge. I have tried to create the situation in which representation on the council will be as broadly based as possible and give fair representation to both educational interests and those involved in the economic life of the country. I feel that the formula which is proposed in the Bill will ensure in so far as that is possible, that we get the balance right.

Section 5 provides that nine of the 23 members other than the chairman and the director shall be appointed on the recommendation of the Minister and it is subsequently provided that before making a recommendation under the section the Minister shall consider to what extent industry, agriculture, fisheries, commerce, any of the professions or the management, staff and students of any institution to which the Act applies need representation on the council.

Of the remaining members, two shall be appointed on the recommendation of the Governing Body of the National Institute for Higher Education, Dublin; two shall be appointed on the recommendation of the Governing Body of the National Institute for Higher Education, Limerick; two shall be appointed on the recommendation of the Governing Body of Thomond College of Education, Limerick; one shall be appointed on the recommendation of the National College of Art and Design; four shall be appointed on the recommendation of the Minister from amongst those who are members of the staff of any university in the State or of any constituent or recognised college of such a university, and finally, three shall be appointed on the recommendation of the Minister from amongst those who are members of the governing or managing body or of the staff or student body of any institution to which the Act applies.

Section 9 provides that the council may establish boards of studies. It may request a board of studies to make, in relation to specified subjects, courses of study or specified branches, areas, aspects or other divisions of education or research, recommendations to the council concerning any one or more of the following:

(a) the courses of study or instruction therein to be followed by persons for the purpose of obtaining an educational award from the council;

(b) standards to be maintained as regards any such course or other conditions subject to or in accordance with which any such course is to be conducted;

(c) the standards to be applied and maintained in relation to examinations or tests undertaken by persons attending or otherwise pursuing or following any such course.

In relation to making recommendations to the council, the board of studies has to have particular regard to the following:

(a) the standard of the work and the facilities for the time being available at any institution at which the course of study or instruction being considered is conducted or at which it is proposed to have the course being considered conducted, as may be appropriate;

(b) the curriculum and syllabus of the courses of study or instruction being considered;

(c) the requisite qualifications or the proposed qualifications of persons conducting the course;

(d) the arrangements and facilities provided, or to be provided, for the practical training of persons attending or otherwise pursuing or following the course;

(e) the arrangements and facilities provided, or to be provided, for the examination or testing of the persons concerned;

(f) the standards required or proposed for admission to such courses and

(g) the standard required or proposed for the award of any degree, diploma, certificate, or other educational award at the conclusion or at any other stage of the course.

The following very important proviso is also included. A board of studies in making recommendations in relation to the standard required or proposed for admission to a course for, or for the conferring, granting or giving of a degree, diploma, certificate or other educational award, shall have regard to any corresponding standard required by a university in the State and shall not recommend a standard which is lower than such a standard, if any. I have already on other occasions indicated that I anticipate and expect that the NCEA will pay particular attention to maintaining the standard of its awards whether at degree, diploma or certificate level, and I now repeat the emphasis which I desire to place on this aspect of the matter.

By way of conclusion to this introduction of the Second Reading of the Bill, I desire to draw attention to a statement of a former Minister for Education, Deputy Padraig Faulkner, in his address to the National Council for Educational Awards on the occasion of the inaugural meeting of the council on 11 April 1972, and to my own statement of 18 November 1977, announcing that the NCEA would be the degree awarding authority in the case of students who successfully complete degree level courses in the national institutes for higher education, in Limerick and Dublin and in Thomond College of Education, Limerick and in the regional technical colleges.

The Minister, Deputy Faulkner, stated that the existing system of awards could neither continue to meet the needs of existing colleges, nor had it any prospect of extension to fulfil the requirements of a third-level non-university sector which was significantly expanded by the addition of the regional technical colleges, the College of Physical Education and the Institute of Higher Education in Limerick. He also stated that the achievement of a national self-sufficiency in this area appeared to be a desirable objective in itself and one which could be realised by pooling the expertise of people from the universities, from technical and general education, from industry, from business, from the professions, and from research.

In my own statement of 18 November 1977, I stated that the Government, having had an opportunity of considering all aspects of the matter, were convinced that the best interests of the universities and the NIHE, Limerick and Thomond College of Education would be served by restoring to the National Council for Educational Awards the power to award degrees in the case of NIHE and Thomond College of Education. This would afford the NIHE and Thomond College of Education the flexibility and freedom which, with the support of the NCEA, would enable them to develop to the fullest extent programmes, the foundations of which have been firmly laid during the course of their association with the universities.

I stressed that a serious responsibility rested with the NCEA to ensure that the degree awards granted to students who successfully completed courses in the institutions for which the Government decided they should be the awarding body were comparable in value and esteem with similar awards granted by other degree awarding authorities, on the basis of comparable courses at home and abroad. This was a task which presented to the NCEA a challenge which the Government felt confident they would meet responsibly and wholeheartedly.

The NCEA were first established by a Fianna Fáil Government in the full conviction that they would make an extremely valuable contribution to the progress of education in this country. It is on the basis of the same conviction that I recommend this Bill to the House establishing the council on a statutory basis.

I welcome the opportunity of speaking on this National Council for Educational Awards Bill 1978. We agree in principle with the introduction of the Bill and the giving of statutory effect to the work which had been carried on up to this by the ad hoc committee established in 1972. The background to this is a revolution in education, especially since the advent of free third-level education. I particularly welcome this Bill because since so many people are going through third-level education many problems have developed. The essential problem seemed to be that it was every mother's wish to have her son or daughter go to university and qualify with the magic handle of a degree after their names; and all the benefits of a good life that would follow from that. We are having a crisis in education today as a result of these types of attitudes for which the Government are not responsible. This is a human attitude.

I welcome the upgrading and in-stitutionalising of technological education under the Bill. We are beginning to learn that technological education is extremely important. Looking at the crisis in universities today and the problems relating to the employment of those who qualify in Arts disciplines, when we see the extent of industrial development and the hope that such industrial development gives to future generations, it is time we gave due recognition to technological education. We are going to see a reaction against the attitudes of the last ten or 15 years with more and more young people coming to realise the value of the type of education we are speaking about this evening.

One of the flaws in the language in this Bill, and to an extent one or two sections of the Minister's speech, is the extent to which I detect a type of inferiority within this sector, vis-á-vis university education, because he makes reference in three or four places in the Bill and in his speech to the necessity for standards emanating from the technological section which must be equal to universities. It is not a question of standards being equal to the universities, it is a question of standards being standards that are applicable to the institutes in question. I do not think this obsession with what is happening within the universities is necessarily relevant. We want standards that may even exceed those in universities. The choice of language in harping on the university syndrome is a little undesirable.

A very broad aspect does not relate to the minutiae of the Bill. It has a little to do with democracy, because we are giving the council very sweeping powers. In section 3, for example, the general functions of the council are to encourage, to facilitate, to promote, to co-ordinate and to develop technical, industrial, scientific, technological and commercial education, and education in art or design, provided outside the universities, whether professional, vocational or technical, and to encourage and promote liberal education. This is a vast, awesome and powerful function. One of the problems we are learning in the country in recent years is that we are having a crisis in democracy. We have found, through the development of many of our semi-State bodies, a situation in which at the inaugurative stage of such semi-State bodies, when the national mood in 1927 or 1932 or 1935 seemed to indicate that a semi-State body should be established to perform a particular function which seemed valid in those years, we gave those bodies very substantial powers. We shielded them from the Oireachtas by the trappings under which the Oireachtas is arranged and under which the Government function here. We find that these semi-State institutes have become embedded in a groove, and the yardsticks by which they were founded have changed. Feather-bedding can exist to a certain extent. Attitudes should have changed but have not and there are all kinds of other problems. In many cases the bodies which have been established 20-30 years, are not performing today as efficiently as they might in the national interest. If there were more cross-fertilisation there might well be reason why many people working in such sectors could usefully be working in the interests of the State, but in sectors other than those for which they were created.

We are talking about technological education today. We are giving this council very substantial powers. By the grace of God they will do a very good job. If the State is fortunate to have a competent Minister in charge of education during the tenure of the council, there should be a measure of democratic control over the council. Should the council not carry out their function as envisaged by the Government and by the Houses of the Oireachtas, the country would be badly served. We must give thought to the development of more committee work within the Oireachtas. Our existing committees are working within limits in relation to personnel and the facilities which are available to Members of the Oireachtas. The democratic principle of control and liaison, of consultation and dialogue, could equally exist in the field of education as it does in relation to semi-State bodies, the EEC and many other areas of State activity. I suggest to the Minister that his Government give some thought to this issue as we see the council developing.

The Bill is a simple one. It was dealt with in detail on Committee Stage in the Dáil. It gives statutory existence to the- ad hoc body which had existed for some years. I should like to take the opportunity to compliment the ad hoc body on their excellent work in uplifting technological education and on the extent to which they were able to inform the people of the work which they have been doing. The growth of the regional technical colleges and other institutes for which they have been responsible has been a remarkable development and is filling an obvious gap. The ad hoc committee were established in 1972 and worked under three different Governments in difficult circumstances and they did a very good job. Evidence of their good work is the constitution of the new council in the broadest terms. We have argued about the functions of the council, whether it should come under the heading of the comprehensive third-level sector or whether it should be in a binary situation. The Minister has opted for the binary method. There are merits in the comprehensive route and there are merits in the binary route. We are living in a very small country with only three million people and we should not become too absorbed in arguments about the system. It seems that in both instances there are advantages and disadvantages.

The disadvantages in the comprehensive system relate to the technological sector being under the umbrella of the universities which have existed for a long time and have more academic and financial clout. The weakness in the binary system is that whilst the technological sector is being given the chance to breathe and grow, which is a good thing, we will not get the cross-fertilisation that is necessary and desirable between the technological institutes and the universities.

I compliment the Minister for his commitment to this cross-fertilisation, to the possibility that students in the different areas of learning in the technological institutes will be able to attend university. At the same time, it is merely the Minister's view in November 1979, and I do not know if the Bill provides adequate cover for this matter. It may well do so in so far as the council's commitment to this type of cross-fertilisation is concerned. However, under the binary system we are dealing with universities which are not covered by this Bill. They may not accept the Minister's view of their obligations in this regard, and I would welcome the Minister's comments in relation to this issue.

In his speech the Minister referred to the possibilities of technological students going into universities for different reasons. This is something we would need to look at in two ways. The present trend in employment means that there will be more scope for people to move from the universities into these institutes than in the opposite direction.

The question of membership of the council is a thorny one. The composition in broad terms is equivalent to the ad hoc arrangement and we are not quibbling with it, but it is naive of the Minister to express the view that those members who have been nominated by their various bodies—the regional technical colleges, the colleges in Dublin or the universities—should represent the council and not their own institute. In the first instance, they have been appointed by the Minister to represent the council in the broadest sense. Under the system which the Minister has set, whereby the members will be nominated by the various institutions, it seems a bit naive to expect that they will not bear in mind the interests of their own institutions. The institutes themselves will have their own interests naturally at heart. In nominating people to represent them on the council they are going to have regard to the kind of people who would best represent their interests. There is nothing wrong with this. It is similar to the EEC where we have a Commissioner appointed by the Government to represent the community in the broadest possible sense. However, we hope that the Commissioner will remember that he comes from this country and will bear its special interests in mind.

I share the view of some other Senators that the director should not be a member of the council. The director should be subject to the decisions of the council and should attend all meetings of the council which he is requested to attend.

I welcome this Bill which deals with the upgrading of an essential part of education. In his speech the Minister quoted the chairman of the National Council in 1972-1973. The Chairman stated that the establishment of the council marked an entirely new and very significant development in relation to third-level education and that for the first time in our history it was possible to give authoritative national recognition and status to third-level non-university education institutions and to their students. I wholeheartedly concur with that view. We will not be negligent in supporting the Government in any development in this sector.

There is only one wide gap at present which needs attention. We are talking about the technological institutes, but in terms of education in the broadest sense and personal development, a great many people have not had the opportunity to attend universities or technological institutions; indeed, many people have not had the opportunity to attend secondary school. There is a great will to learn and a great interest in adult education. The closing of these gaps should give us a more comprehensive educational policy.

Ar an gcéad dul síos caithfidh mé an óráid bhreá chumasach seo a thréaslú leis an Aire féin. Ní dóigh liom go bhfuaireamar, ó tháinig mé isteach sa Teach seo pe scéal é, óráid chomh maith leis an cheann a fuaireamar inniu. Ceithre is fiche leathanach agus gach aon abairt agus foabairt ar fheabhas. Tá abairt amháin ann a léíríonn croí an fhir féin, an dtogras agus an cumas atá sa bhfear, agus an tsuim a chuireann sé in a chuid oibre. Deir sé:

Má chuimhnítear orm in aon chor sna blianta atá le teacht, tá súil agam gur i leith an Bhille seo a chuimhneofar orm.

Dar ndóigh, dá mba rud é gur Chú Chulainn féin a bhí in a Aire Oideachais i láthair na huaire seo ní fhéadfadh sé dul ar aghaidh níos fearr ná san. Is Bille antábhachtach ar fad an Bille seo. Is cuimhin libh sa bhliain 1908 ritheadh Acht agus de thoradh an Achta sin bunaíodh an Ollscoil Náisiúnta. Ní dóigh liom féin ó shin i leith gur ritheadh Bille ar bith ar aon tábhacht leis an mBille atá os ár gcomhair anseo anocht. Ins an ráiteas a thug an tAire Oideachais thug sé staid na cúise ó thosach, an fás a tháinig ar an Chomhairle, agus diaidh ar ndiaidh a tháinig an fás san. D'fhéadfá a rá go raibh stad ann go ceann tamaill, le linn tréimhse áirithe. Ansan tháinig an Rialtas nua isteach i gcumhacht agus tháinig an tAire Oideachais isteach leis agus ó shin i leith d'fhás an smaoineamh, d'fhás an Bille go hantapaidh, agus tá an Bille os ár gcomhair anocht agus is mian liomsa cúpla rud beag a rá mar gheall air. Tá an staid tugtha ag an Aire. Ní gá dul siar air sin. Tá fás agus forbairt na teicneolaíochta ag teastáil go géar ón ár dtírín beag seo. Tír beag, tír na hÉireann agus is ar intleacht mhuintir na hÉireann, ar dhíogras mhuintir na hÉireann, ar mhisneach mhuintir na hÉireann agus ar scileanna mhuintir na hÉireann atá todhchaí na tíre seo ag brath. I gcónaí riamh bhí cáil agus clú ar na cearduithe seo againne. Siar, siar tríd na haoiseanna agus fiú amháin ins an bhéaloideas féin cantar agus instear scéalta agus labhartar na cearduithe iontacha a bhí againn, na cearduithe, na dealbhóirí, lucht deartha agus tá feabhas a gcuid oibre siúd le feiceáil sna sean chaisleáin, na sean-mhainistreacha agus mar sin de. Bhí na scileanna acu. Tá an-intleacht ag muintir na hÉireann ach é d'oibriú go ceart, go cruinn agus go héifeachtach agus go críostúil.

In his commendable introduction the Minister gave us the story that led up to the presentation of this Bill. It is an interesting story and it shortens the amount of speech-making that would otherwise be necessary here tonight. On a Bill such as this it would be necessary to get the background first and present it bit by bit in an orderly fashion so that people could understand what led up to the formation and the presentation of this Bill.

It has to do mostly with the development, the teaching and the fostering of technological education. Section 3 (1) of the Bill reads:

The functions of the Council shall be generally to encourage, facilitate, promote, co-ordinate and develop technical, industrial, scientific, technological and commercial education, and education in art or design, provided outside the universities, whether professional, vocational or technical, and to encourage and promote liberal education.

That section of the Bill possibly answers most of our economic problems for decades and decades to come. Skills are wanted, never more so than at this time. I never saw that quite so clearly as I did during the International Apprenticeship competitions which were held in Cork recently. We had the cream of apprentices from all over the world competing for the highest honours in the world championships in 34 or 35 different trades. I went there with thousands of others to see what went on. I was so fascinated that I could hardly tear myself away from it. When I saw those young boys and girls showing their skills, their absolute dedication to achieving perfection in the trades of their choice, I was delighted. I came home elated. The night of the presentation of awards I saw how well our own little country did with its limited number of entries. Curiously enough, the major awards went to the far eastern countries—China, Japan, Taiwan—and some of the European countries from which we expected great results did not come up to the same standard. The people in Japan, China and Taiwan are anxious to get ahead and they dedicate themselves to achieving perfection in so far as it is possible to achieve perfection at the human level. Starting with our present generations of young boys and girls, future generations have a wonderful chance to achieve perfection in skills. As a race, we can be very skilful. We have a tradition of tradesmen, sculptors and so on. Wonderful work was done by our artists and tradesmen, in regard to such things as cut stone, high crosses and so on. We are a most adaptable and imaginative race and we can produce the results if we make up our minds to do so.

As the body without the spirit is dead, so also are high skills and technology unless accompanied by what we badly want at the moment—dedication to work; working not for the sake of money but working for the sake of the work in order to produce perfection, create more employment and a decent living, not alone for ourselves but for our brothers, our sisters and the rest of the country. Unless that spirit is inculcated during the teaching hours and hours of instruction, the results will not be what we hope they will be. Education must not be confused with instruction. People can be instructed to carry out certain skills, but where will it lead us if all these skills are only used to make more and more money for people themselves to the exclusion of their brothers. I hope these points will be borne in mind by the HEA and by the council. Not by bread alone doth man live.

This is the year in which we commemorate Pádraig Pearse. What would Pearse say if he were here today? He would refer to the three great things that he regarded as being basic as far as education is concerned—fostering the right ideas; having discipline and inspiring people to achieve their highest potential. The only way in which a high potential can be achieved is to develop one's own potential and cultivate the attributes of charity, co-operation, loyalty and practical patriotism.

The Minister stated in the final page of his speech:

I stressed that a serious responsibility rested with the NCEA to ensure that the degree awards granted to students who successfully completed courses in institutions for which the Government decided it should be the awarding body were comparable in value and esteem with similar awards granted by other degree-awarding authorities, on the basis of comparable courses at home and abroad.

I hope that point will be borne in mind because from time to time we have complaints of certain university degrees and so on awarded here not being recognised abroad. The Minister went on to say:

This was a task which presented to the NCEA a challenge which the Government felt confident it would meet responsibly and wholeheartedly.

I have no doubt that the Government will. The Government have always done it and the present Government will continue to do so. For the seven years that the NCEA have been in operation on an ad hoc basis—from now on it will be on a statutory basis—extraordinarily good work has been done. I cannot commend too highly the college nearest to my home, which is the Cork Regional Technical College, where extremely good work has been done in the short time of its existence. It has a devoted principal and staff. Many of my former students and pupils who went there are very pleased with the progress they have made and with the courses in the college.

In all these institutions facilities should be made available for liberal courses, for courses of instruction in cultural matters. I cannot commend the Minister too highly for including section 3 (4) in this Bill which reads:

In performing its functions the Council shall bear constantly in mind the national aims of restoring the Irish language and preserving and developing the national culture and shall endeavour to promote the attainment of those aims.

We must always bear that in mind. We are a small country. We have to depend on our skills and abilities. We must bear in mind at all times the idea of preserving our culture and skills. One of the curses of this country at the moment is this rash of selfishness and jealousy.

I mentioned that great progress has been made by the NCEA. As proof of that I was delighted to read in yesterday's Cork Examiner a report of a speech made by the Chairman of the NCEA, Dr. Tom Walsh, when presenting awards at Carlow's Regional Technical College. Dr. Walsh said that when this year's programme of conferring ceremonies was completed the NCEA would, since 1972, have given 10,000 awards, the majority of them in engineering, science and business study. That is a remarkable achievement, agus mar fhocail scoir, guím gach rath ar Chomhairle na gCailíochtaí Oideachais agus guím gach rath agus fad saol ar an Aire Oideachais féin.

I welcome the Bill which, in upgrading the work of the NCEA, is also a very significant step in the organisation and progress of education. The NCEA have had their ups and downs but with the introduction of this Bill, I hope their course will be smooth from now on.

Is it the function of education to help people towards self-fulfilment or is it the function of education to help people to fulfil a vital role in society? These two aims are, not always in complete harmony with each other; in fact they can quite often be in direct conflict with each other. There is no doubt that we have a high percentage of young people in our population. A young population which has not been given the skills which the country needs for its development would be an extremely unhappy population and one which would, once again, take to the emigrant ship. This is something which we hoped had long ceased to be an important feature of life for us. Because of this concern for the future planning of society's needs, I am slightly worried about the composition of the NCEA. In reading the report of the NCEA for 1977-1978, I notice that there were 30 members. Among them there were one architect and people involved in the IMI. The rest of the people, including those appointed by the Minister, were all either academics or involved in the administration of academic institutions—people from VEC's, regional technical colleges and officials generally. There were a number of practical people on the various boards of studies and ancillary boards. There was a high level of nonindustrial people who could not be described as being involved in the production end of the economic system. There is a great need, which has not been realised, for a high degree of rapport between education on one side and industry on the other. I hope that the functions of the NCEA as defined in this Bill do not exclude branching into research and co-ordination in consultation with industry.

It is proposed in this Bill that there will be a chairman, director and 23 other members. Nine of those will be directly appointed by the Minister and there are seven other appointments by the Minister but he is limited in those seven appointments. I hope that of the nine who will be appointed by the Minister there will be an extremely strong element from industry, people who will be able to sit down and work out the future needs of industry and how we are going to channel people into fulfilling a vital role for Ireland and into self-fulfilment at the same time.

There is very little use in producing 2,000 people with a degree in business administration if there is no business for them to administer. When I say that I am echoing the sentiments of many groups, particularly those involved in the furthering of industry and employer groups, who have been saying again and again that the emphasis must now shift towards providing the kind of expertise that industry needs. We are all aware at this time of high unemployment that there is a great shortage of skilled workers. It is a feature that is mentioned again and again. There has to be co-ordination particularly in the area covered by the NCEA. There should be, of course, co-ordination in university education. That has been very much lacking, and as a result we have many problems for faculties and difficulties about admitting people to faculties because there are too many people with qualifications. In the composition of the council, there is an extraordinarily strong argument to be made for involving people from industry.

In any Bill or document that comes before us to do with education, there is one question which must be asked when we talk about institutes or constituent colleges of universities. Section 5 (1) (f) states that the Minister may appoint people from:

those who are members of the staff of any university of the State, or any college or institution which is a constituent college of, or is recognised by, such a university ...or institution standing for the time being designated for the purposes of this section by the Minister,

What is the standing of Maynooth at present in this type of list of recognised colleges? We were informed by the Supreme Court last week that Maynooth is a seminary. What is the status now of Maynooth when it comes to choosing people from universities or constituent colleges? It is a question which will arise again and again in any legislation on education, particularly higher education, and is one which must be faced up to.

In the composition of people in the 1977-1978 NCEA, there was only one woman. Women have played and do play an important role in education. Unfortunately, they have not made it to the top. They are not the voices that are listened to, neither in the Department of Education nor in many other areas. One does not find them heading large Departments. This means they are excluded when it comes to the formation of such bodies as the NCEA. The greatest under-utilised natural resource of this country is its women. I would ask the Minister, in the 16 appointments he will be making to the NCEA, to pay particular attention to the role that women have to play and have played in education. The Commission for the Status of Women report was extremely strong on how the country had been held back by the single sex education we have and continue to have to a large extent and by the channelling of women into very narrow areas despite the fact that they show, in second level, that they are equal in every respect and better than men students at Leaving Certificate level. Special efforts have to be made in every appointment area, and I hope that we will shortly see an improvement on one woman in 30 members of the NCEA.

I welcome the document which was brought out in May 1978 on recurrent education. The NCEA brought out this document. They also refer to it as permanent education which was obviously a translation of éducation permanente used by the French. It was a significant and welcome document because an incursion by the NCEA in the growing and dynamic field of adult education would be extremely useful. It is an area which needs investigation and a new status. I hope we will have an opportunity to discuss this very shortly.

I appeal to the Minister to follow the example of his colleague the Minister for Posts and Telegraphs and get the best brains of industry and the academic world to help in running the country, to complement and strengthen the brains in our civil service. I hope this will be possible for the Minister to do.

As well as being a Member of this House I happen to be a Chancellor of a university. In both capacities I express a warm welcome for this Bill. The Minister in his opening statement referred to the Higher Education Authority's original report on technological and other specialised third level courses. He mentioned that they said it was possible that, at first glance, it might be thought that amending legislation which would enable universities to give degrees or other appropriate awards to suitable students of technological education institutions would be a solution, particularly as many technological courses were comparable in content and standard to those given in the universities. I agree with the Higher Education Authority in discarding that view and in recognising that there was—I might not go as far as the Authority in saying a basic difference in "primary function" between universities and technological institutions as they did but, at least a difference in orientation and purpose which justifies their having separate but, I would hope, closely co-operative, development possibilities.

Another point which the Higher Education Authority considered very desirable and which I would like to emphasise is that technological education should not be confined to the teaching of industrial and commercial skills but that every course of that kind should have an appropriate element of the humanities. This point was well brought out in a remarkable recent lecture by Professor Patrick Lynch, who was also Chairman of the OECD study group on Investment in Education. In the seventh Robert Kane lecture he said:

Mankind can enjoy the myriad benefits of technology only if its origins, development and possibilities are fully understood ... the technologist must constantly be aware of this philosophical framework within which he is working.

The obverse to that, of course, which Professor Lynch also brought out, is that the academic person must also be aware of the technological environment in which he is working. He put it much better when he said:

I believe that academic adaptation is essential if universities are to humanise society.

So even if there be, in the interest of both, some degree of separate development, each—the purely academic and predominantly technological forms of education—needs the support of the other if we are to have a humanised society.

One of the reasons given for having a separate system of awarding degrees and diplomas was that it was a serious impediment to the upgrading and extension of technological education, and hence to its attraction for potential students, that there was no such range of national awards.

I should like to mention another impediment which is worth considering and which I am sure is engaging the Minister's attention, namely, that at second level, where one would hope interest would be stimulated in the pursuit of further knowledge, there is probably still in Ireland must too great an emphasis on purely academic education. There is need to do more than we are doing to up-grade the status of vocational and technical education. I was privileged within the last year or so to be invited by two teaching orders, one male and one female, to sit in with them in their consideration of educational policy in their secondary schools over the next five or ten years. I was very pleased to find that one of the main considerations engaging their attention was the point that the country's development requirements would suggest that there be a greater emphasis on technology rather than purely academic and administrative pursuits. They were wondering how they could best contribute to this. Both these orders, I was glad to see, intend to do something, through their influence on parents and through their influence on children, to upgrade the status of technical education and make it more attractive for children to follow as a learning process.

I would hope that the Bill which sets up the National Council for Educational Awards will be accompanied and supported by a greater emphasis at the second level of education on technical or technological studies—not to the exclusion of academic pursuits, of course, because it is very important to know the principles, the why as well as the how, but so that there will be a better balance and a better co-operative reaction between these two forms of education in the future.

I cannot speak too highly of the Bill. It is very satisfactory and takes us out of the doldrums in which third level education has laboured over the past few years. The need for this kind of education has been identified for quite a long time. As regards the obsession with university education as the only kind of third level education acceptable, that notion will take a long time to die. There is a great deal of prejudice of that kind. If that prejudice can be dispelled it is by this kind of structure. The drafting of the Bill is a credit to the Department and to the draftsmen who put it together. I like the fact that while the practical functional aspect of education is strongly stressed—it clearly is the senior partner in this kind of education—the junior partner of a liberal education—the importance of humanities—gets sufficient emphasis too. It would be dreadful if the specialisation in technological and practical utilitarian concerns were carried out to the exclusion of the humanising disciplines of poetry, history and literature in general. I am glad to see that in the Minister's speech and in the Bill the importance of that humanising function is acknowledged and catered for.

The other aspect of the Bill that is of great importance is that one can look forward now to a creative tension between the two systems, the NCEA graduates and the university graduates, that will act as a sort of fertile ground for emulation and proper rivalry between the two. Even more so I look forward to an increasing degree of co-operation. The public may not be aware of the degree of co-operation that already exists. I do not know how widely known it is that if a student passes his first year in an NCEA institution in the regional colleges of technology or in the NIHE with credit, it entitles him to enter university and by-pass matriculation. That is very important. There are many bright students who go through secondary and vocational education and due to bad luck, to the fact that they may be late developers, that they may be sick at the time or there may be some domestic difficulties that put them off their stroke, they may not matriculate. We know this. There are hundreds of very bright children who are not able to make it into the universities. It is a rather heartbreaking situation.

It should be well publicised that this is another way. It is a way towards an admirable degree, an NCEA award degree, but it is also a means of getting into a university. In other words a good first year's work can entitle them to transfer. That is one form of transfer that is possible and it is happening a good deal. It is remarkable how well these students do when they go into university. I understand that in one year in Galway in the honours class, I think it was in science, the first three places went to somebody who had transferred from the regional technical college. In other words, the standards are there. The personnel is excellent and this kind of transfer is already going on with the co-operation and goodwill of the universities. There may be some elements in the universities that are a bit reluctant about it but, by and large, the degree of co-operation is remarkable.

I have experience of this because I teach in a university and my discipline involves a very large graduate programme in Anglo-Irish literature. Over the past ten years or so there has been a substantial number, it is a minority, but a number of students who have come from polytechnics, particularly in Northern Ireland. If they get a high degree there and come to the top, they come and do the MA and their degree of achievement is very high. It is as good as anything that one will get from our own university, in some respects higher.

It is important to recognise the NCEA degree as being in no way a second class citizen. It is just another kind of degree, and that is the kind of hortatory thing I should like to stress. It is probably unnecessary to draw the Minister's attention to it, but it is something we should keep in our minds. The excellence of these degrees depends on the standard being very high. That is very obvious, it is a truism. They must never be allowed to be seen as anything but of the first excellence. In order to do that it is essential that the awards be only awarded on the highest, most meritorious standards and criteria and that it never comes to be seen as the easy way out, as a second best. The really big challenge there is in the appointment of personnel.

There is an incredible pool of teaching talent at present and a great number of them unemployed. There are Ph.Ds going a begging. All Ph.Ds do not necessarily make good teachers but there are a lot of very good people around. It is of the utmost importance that appointments to these positions, both in the NIHEs and in the regional colleges of technology, be made with roughly the same standard in mind as the universities should have.

There is a very bad tradition of nepotism in Ireland. It is happily on the way out but there is a backlog of political influence, family influence and all kinds of skullduggery with regard to the making of appointments. That should not be yielded to for a moment. Now is the time to make a firm resolution about it. The personnel appointed to these institutions should be of the very highest academic standard, so much so that they will generate their own standard of excellence and that it will be regarded as a considerable honour to be appointed to the staff of one of them, as a distinction equal to the distinction of serving on the staff of a university. That can be done, but there is only one way to do it, by an absolutely puritan attention to standards and absolutely impartial academic criteria in the appointment of such people.

As these are colleges of technology and as the technological or the utilitarian side of education will be stressed rather more than the merely disinterested pursuit of knowledge, as it is called in the trade, research will have to go hand in hand with teaching. There necessarily are laboratories there. There is a great deal of what they call sophisticated educational hardware around, but the resources for research should be made available so that bright people teaching in these institutions would have facilities and money for research. If they have that kind of bent, if they are research people, they should get fairly generous time off in order to pursue research side by side with their teaching. Teaching alone shrivels up. It tends to get attenuated and bloodless if it is not backed up by research, by the pursuit of knowledge, by the obsessive concern of the individual with his own subject. In other words, they must never be seen merely as teaching institutions. The research element of them should be developed. In this, there could be a very great deal of creative competition with the universities.

The third point is also important. Senator Whitaker referred to it and that is that as regards the second level of education some policy will have to evolve with regard to making them aware of what is available in these NCEA's degrees. What I mean is that university graduates would not be human if they did not prefer university degrees. It will be important that they do not infect their pupils with a sense of the superiority of the university degree over this. Instead they should make their students aware of the difference. It is not just career guidance, because career guidance sometimes puts people into wrong paths, but the teachers themselves could be able to spot the kind of boy or girl and say: "That child would be much better off in the long run going for an NCEA degree than going into a university". The consciousness of the double choice will have to percolate downwards into the schools. I do not quite know how the Minister can set about doing this, but it has to percolate down. There is a good deal of prejudice to be overcome, because secondary schools as distinct from vocational schools are manned almost exclusively by university graduates who suffer from the same kind of prejudice that anybody else will—the prejudice in favour of the kind of background that they themselves had.

Senator Hussey made an interesting point when she spoke about the question of adult education. It has not really been tackled properly in this country at all. The report on adult education is still gathering dust and nothing has been done about it. The Murphy Report is all of eight years old now. The universities have done a little. My own university—if I may blow its trumpet a little—has done a great deal with regard to night degrees. It is the only university institution in Dublin that does night degrees, and it has the biggest extra-mural programme in these islands. Quite brilliant and one of the great success stories of modern Ireland is that extraordinary UCD extra-mural programme which involves literally thousands of people in the evening who are hungry for education: adults, women who have reared their families and now have a little time on their hands—all kinds of people come to these courses, but, of course, it is only people in the metropolitan area who can avail themselves of these courses.

These regional colleges and these institutes are obviously very well positioned in order to cater for that need. It has to be a secondary need. They have to get the first thing first, the actual central problem of educating their own under-graduate students. Obviously they could become great centres of cultural energy in different parts of the country, and this is a consideration which should be very much borne in mind by anybody in charge of that area.

I read the Bill very aggressively and listened quite critically to the Minister's speech. Credit should be given where credit is due. This is really an excellent Bill. If it is put into operation with the same elegance as it has been defined for us here, it can enable a very major contribution to be made to the life of the country.

In the past we were concerned mainly with agriculture. In recent years we have introduced some agricultural education, but maybe not enough yet. The population is growing and, therefore, to be able to get jobs for this growing population, we have to enter industry. Therefore we have to concentrate on the field of technical and technological education. I am not an academic. When I prepared myself for life I went through technical and technological education, but I had to go outside this country to get it. Today I am very glad to say that we can be gratified by the advance we have made in recent years.

Recently in Cork there was evidence of this, in that we were able to put on the international apprenticeship competition. This showed the interest in technical education not alone in this country but in other developing countries. In fact, our group did very well, but the country which took the most gold medals was Korea. We should be gratified that we had the buildings, the equipment and the staff to be able to put on this competition. I regret to say it did not get the publicity it deserved. Within the past fortnight we had graduation day at the Cork Regional Technical College and numbers of students got their diplomas and certificates. It was significant that so many of them got their diplomas and certificates in absentia. In other words, they had already got jobs before they received their certificate or diploma. This is an island and of all those who got diplomas in the marine sector only one was present. All the rest of them were literally at sea.

We have developed our technical and technological education. I more than welcome this Bill because it is a move to give it the status it should have. I support everything Senator Martin said. I should also like to say that business is taking an interest in this advancement. Recently there was a publication on careers in industry by the confederation of Irish Industry which would interest students in going in for technological education rather than academic education in the university. I welcome the Bill and I agree with Senator Whitaker that, if we can improve the status of technological education we should do so to make it acceptable to those who wish to go ahead.

First of all, I should like to thank the six speakers who contributed to the debate on this Bill to establish by statute the National Council for Educational Awards. I made some notes and I will try to deal with the points made by the various Senators.

Senator Staunton indicated that he felt some of the wording of the Bill showed the Bill as thinking of technology as something inferior to the universities because the universities are mentioned in the context of the Bill. In another place, as is said, we debated this at some length and I indicated there, as I do here, that the universities are mentioned simply in discussing standards by way of analogy, that there is no purpose or intention to import the ethos of the universities into the technology sphere, or into the assessment of the awards whether at certificate, diploma, or degree level in this sphere. Since the middle ages the word "university" has been recognised as something which stands for an internationally recognised standard. What we meant by referring to universities at all in this Bill, and in this context, was that we were looking for the kind of recognition at home and abroad for these awards that has been given traditionally to the awards in the universities. Nothing more, nothing less than that was meant. No idea of inferiority at all was implied.

Senator Staunton referred to the work that the award assessing and granting council would do in the development of our industry. My opening speech indicated that the people who were thinking in the late sixties about this development had this idea in mind when they thought originally of forming the National Council for Educational Awards. He referred to the danger of a council becoming divorced from any body that could criticise it and being insulated or cocooned in such a way that the Oireachtas would not have an opportunity of examining its actions and activities, as he alleged happened in the case of some semi-State bodies. The power of the Minister for Education given to him in the Bill to appoint for a fixed period and to change the personnel is sufficient check on this and would put a brake on self-perpetuation of any kind of power group in the council. Senator Staunton had praise for the ad hoc council and this praise is well deserved. He mentioned in passing the binary system and the danger of the development of the technological sector and the university sector on separate parallel lines so to speak. The whole purpose of our educational thrust at the moment is to see to it that there is as much transfer as possible—and Senator Martin referred to this later on in the debate—and that there is cross-fertilisation which is the word used and it can be used with regard to ideas, and even actual bodily transfer from the colleges of technology to the universities and vice versa from the universities to the colleges of technology, I am sure the activities of the National Council for Educational Awards will help in this respect.

We thought the universities might not be inclined to play ball in this regard but, as Senator Martin has mentioned, already there is an intake in the universities from the technological colleges, and I hope the process will not be all one way. I hope there will be transfers from the universities, a horizontal transfer, a horizontal mobility, between the institutions, and that the activities of this council which is an award-giving council will help in that regard. I mentioned in my opening speech the importance of the coordination of the courses in the regional technical colleges with those in the national institutes for higher education. I would hope for an extension of that to the universities, with two-way traffic.

Senator Staunton thought that perhaps I was naïve in thinking members of the council would not feel themselves to be representing the institutions from which they come. Impartiality is quite possible. On the ad hoc council it has been done. People can abstract themselves from their own institutions and give service—altruistic, unbiased, unprejudiced service—to the council. It has been done in the past by people from the universities and people from other institutions, and I am quite confident that it will be so in the future as well.

He referred to his desire that the director should not be a member of the council. After much consideration and due consideration and thought, and despite debates and amendments in another place, we maintained that the director should be a member of the council for good and sufficient reasons but, in particular, because he should be fully au fait with everything that is going on in the council. He cannot have the same strength if he is not a member of the council.

As did other Senators, Senator Staunton mentioned adult education. I gather we may have an opportunity to debate adult education in the not too distant future, both in connection with the National Council for Educational Awards and on its own.

D'fháiltigh an Seanadóir Cranitch roimh an Bhille agus luaigh sé go raibh stad le himeachtaí na comhairle ar feadh tamaillín ach gur tháinig borradh faoi na himeachtaí tar éis don Rialtas seo teach isteach in oifig arís. Do luaigh sé chomh thábhachtach is atá sé go dtiocfadh forbairt agus forbairt mhór ar an teicneolaíocht. Duirt sé go raibh sé a dhith ar an dtír agus ní doigh liom go bhfuil aon bhaill den Seanad seo nach n-aontaíonn go hiomlán leis an dtuairim sin. Dúirt sé go raibh clú agus cáil ar na cearduithe, ar na dealbhóiri agus ar lucht deartha sa tír seo le fada an lá—go raibh clú agus cáil ar na daoine a bhí ag plé leis na himeachtaí sin agus go raibh sé indéanta againne foirgnimh nua a thogáil ar an sean tradisiún sin.

He mentioned in particular, as did Senator Jago later on the international competition for apprentices which took place in Cork this year. Senator Cranitch was pleased that Ireland performed very well with a small number of contestants in that competition. This is true. In the context of the Bill we are debating, one would hope that one of the effects of the statutory foundation of the National Council for Educational Awards would be that we would be competing over a wider range of skills in any future international competition. This could be and will be a very desirable outcome of the establishment of this council.

Senator Cranitch went on to mention—and this was mentioned later by Senator Whitaker, Senator Martin and others—that giving the skill alone is not sufficient. The Biblical quotation by Senator Cranitch was that the body without the spirit is dead. He went on to say that high skills alone were not enough. There also has to be a commitment to the development of self, family and country. He mentioned in this context the centenary of the birth of Padraig MacPiarais and his particular ideals, fostering of ideas and discipline, and inspiring others. It is interesting to note that the Pearse family were skilled workers in stone, and perhaps it was relevant that Senator Cranitch should mention him in this context. He also commented favourably on the fact that an obligation on the council to develop the Irish language and maintain it and sustain it is incorporated in the Bill. Quoting Dr. Walsh, who is the present chairman of the ad hoc council, he mentioned that the ad hoc council has already made about 10,000 awards in certificates, diplomas and degrees in toto, over half of which were in engineering.

Senator Hussey welcomed the Bill and wished it a smooth passage. She raised the age-old question as to what was the purpose of education. Was it self-fulfilment or was it to make a contribution to the growth and development of society? I should think the answer to that is that it should be a self-fulfilment in the growth and development of society. There is no reason why these objectives should be mutually exclusive. She made a very pertinent point about our young population. She made the point that it is unique in the European Economic Community. It is true and it is a great challenge.

She mentioned a burning question at present, that is, imparting skills to young people which they may not be able to use, skills that may be obsolete. In this context there is a great deal of head-scratching going on in particular about the silicone chips and all the people the development of this field of technology may throw out of work. It is a problem. People are worried about it. This theme has recurred in Senators' speeches. We will have to aim at a basic training which will sustain and fertilise the imparting of new skills when specific skills that are learned and rewarded by the NCEA become obsolete. A good deal of careful thought will have to go into this whole field, the field covered by the National Council for Educational Awards, between now and the end of this century.

Senator Hussey referred also to the composition of the council. If she read section 5 (2) she would see there was no danger of the council itself becoming overweighted with administrators and academics, as she said, because the Minister must take cognisance, according to the Bill, of to what extent "industry, agriculture, fisheries, commerce, any of the professions or the management, staff and students of any institution to which this Act applies need representation on the Council". All those areas will have to be attended to in putting the council together. "Industry" was the word she used, and she came back time and time again to it. I am sure she did not mean to exclude commerce, fisheries, agriculture, and so on.

She then went on to say—and she was talking about her own constituency here I am sure—that women were the greatest under-utilised resource of Irish society. It is interesting to note in this connection that one of the most skilful performers—although she did not win any prize—at the international apprentices competition in Cork was a diminutive South Korean who took part in the plumbing competition and was performing very well when I was there, but unfortunately she did not get any medals. This, of course, bears out the point that Senator Hussey made that this is an area from which women should not be excluded. She referred to "education permanente”, a term the French invented and then shrunk back from, but it is an area we will probably have a chance of debating in the near future, current reeducation, “education permanente” adult education. They are not necessarily all the same things, but the National Council for Educational Awards has a competence with regard to all these areas and can be usefully employed in developing courses and awards to suit the needs of people who are either second-chance students, or doing refresher work, or doing sabbatical work. The potentialities are great.

Senator Whitaker then went on to quote the HEA in its original study on the needs in this sector. He said he would not accept the strong word "basic" difference between the universities and the technological area, but that he would accept that there was a differentiation in orientation and purpose. Those were the words he used. I am glad he referred to it, because it is relevant to the whole idea as to the relationship that should exist between the two. There may not be a basic difference. There is certainly a difference in ethos. It is our intention that through the NCEA and the co-operation of the universities, which is very important because they have an independence they pride themselves on and nobody wants to interfere with it, the technological people and the universities may influence each other and transfer, and the council should be an instrument in this regard.

Senator Whitaker welcomed an appropriate element of the humanities as being catered for by the NCEA, and went on to quote Professor Patrick Lynch who referred to the importance of understanding the philosophical framework in which the whole subject of technology must be placed. It recalls the old debate of over 20 years ago and Professor C.P. Snow's lecture "The Two Cultures" which probably was a misnomer. At least, some people would contend that what he should have been writing about were two aspects of the one culture. Professor Snow made the point very strongly in that lecture that people who were trained in the humanities went around sneering at advanced technologists because they were ignorant of Hamlet.

He went on and made the point very strongly—I remember when reading the lecture getting a metaphorical kick in the stomach when I came to the sentence—that the technologists would be equally justified in criticising those who dedicated themselves to the humanities if they did not understand, I think, the second law of thermo-dynamics. I hope it was thermo-dynamics; it could be aero-dynamics, but I think it is thermo-dynamics. When I reflected for a quarter of a second that I had not a clue what the second law of thermo-dynamics was I knew that Professor C.P. Snow had made his point and made it very strongly.

It is specifically for that reason that this Bill covers the technological range and also mentions the promotion of liberal education. It links up with something that I mentioned already, that is, arising out of what Senator Hussey said, that if skills become obsolete and you have to retrain, there must be some fat there, there must be some fertile soil there upon which the new training can be given. This, to a great extent, will be provided by, but not exclusively, the liberal arts studied under the aegis of the NCEA in accordance with the powers given in this Bill.

Senator Whitaker went on to refer to the second level and said there was much too great an emphasis on academic education. Senator Martin referred to the same thing later on. I accept that this is so, although I have certain reservations about it. Where the big weakness has been is in the acceptance of a stereotype. The ordinary academic course is followed, ergo all other fields are shut out—either go to the university, or to specific clerical or administrative jobs. It is the thinking that is wrong there, the type-casting—I cannot get the right word—casting people in the role because of the studies they followed up to Intermediate Certificate or Leaving Certificate.

If we could get people thinking of apprenticeships, if we could get people thinking of regional technical colleges, no matter what kind of school they went to, then we would be achieving greatly. I am not saying there is not a certain amount of truth in what Senator Whitaker said. Perhaps we do not call the attention of the secondary schools to the fact that their range is not large enough or wide enough. We, perhaps, should see to it that there are technological areas covered in all post-primary schools, both traditional secondary and vocational schools. Far more nefarious has been this idea that because a leaving certificate has been achieved in certain subjects, all other areas are completely shut off. Recently many people who did ordinary academic courses turned towards RTCs, not merely in the business field but in the purely technical field and have achieved a great deal. This is true of Bolton Street and Kevin Street in Dublin, of the regional technical colleges as well as the NIHEs.

It is important, as Senator Whitaker said, to make people aware of this. There is the question of the how and the why. The practical answers the how and the philosophic answers the why. Perhaps there is not enough of how in the purely secondary schools and too much why and in this Bill we are trying to avoid too much of the how and too little of the why in technological education.

Senator Martin welcomed the fact that liberal studies were not excluded, that they were acknowledged and to be catered for by the council. He hoped for a creative tension between the technological sector and the universities. I do not know about creative tension but I suppose it is a possibility. Mediaeval theologians used to talk about "a holy rivalry" in theological studies. It often did not stop at a "holy rivalry". If this creative tension could be created, I am sure the interchange of students, the working of university personnel on the National Council for Educational Awards, the transfer of students from universities to technological colleges and vice versa, will create something of a tension, and hopefully it will be a creative one.

The Senator referred to the horizontal mobility which already exists. It is something I particularly welcome and would like to see continuing. He referred to polytechnic graduates in particular who do post-graduate work in his own university college and talked about how highly they achieved. He mentioned students from the city which was first in technology in Ireland for a long time, namely, Belfast, which has a very interesting technological section in their museum. One of our poets who is living down here but is from the North, has one particular poem where he uses technological imagery very well, imagery that he borrows from the shipyard. I am sure some other Members of the Seanad recall the poem I am thinking of.

He talked about the danger of nepotism in the selection of personnel. It is a danger we have with us always. All societies, institutions and other organisations have it also. I agree with him totally that there is only one way to exclude it and that is by insisting on the highest possible standards for the people employed by the council. I can assure him, from my knowledge of the council, that that is the only criterion that will be used in the selection of personnel for the National Council for Educational Awards.

He mentioned the importance of research. I mentioned this at least briefly in my introductory speech. A provision is made for research areas under the influence of the National Council for Eduational Awards. I agree that knowledge becomes attenuated if it is not sustained by research. If a teacher is working on his capital, maybe a meagre capital at the start, he will run out of ideas and knowledge very quickly. The council will have a role to play with regard to research.

There is one caveat. The regional technical colleges and the NIHE's were thought of in the context of providing technicians, technologists and skilled people for our industries. This is their major function. While I agree with the Senator that provision should be made for research, because an educational institution without research is like a human being without a head, it is not paramount; it should not be allowed to interefere with the functioning of the institutions covered by the National Council for Educational Awards. There is no intention in the Bill, or on the part of the Government, to in any way curtail research or research facilities, but we are keeping in mind the main objective of the institutions that were established and which are covered by the National Council for Educational Awards Bill.

Senator Martin also mentioned the second level, especially secondary schools, and their lack of sufficient awareness of the areas in technology where they might choose to make their careers. That point was made by Senator Whitaker, Senator Martin and others and is a good point. It might be possible to get ideas from Senators as to the best way to go about shedding a little light onto that dark corner. I am not going back on what I said already about the stereotyping of people by the courses they follow, even in their immature years. This is something I have always decried. I do not think their horizons should ever be narrowed to that.

I want to deny emphatically before the House and the men of Ireland, as the councillor said once, that nothing is being done for adult education. We may have an opportunity to discuss that later. The Senator went on to say that University College Dublin has a very good record, both in provision of night degrees, and in extramural courses, and I totally agree with him on that. They are varied, interesting and given at the various depths required by the students.

Certain other efforts have been made in the recent past. I had the privilege of appointing adult education officers—more than one, two or three in some cases—to all the vocational education committees to develop adult education in the various vocational education committee areas. We will have an opportunity of debating that aspect of our educational system possibly in the near future.

Senator Jago was very pleased that awards were now available within the country and stated that when he was looking for an educational award he had to look outside the country. He also alluded to the international competition for apprentices and talked about the Far East and how the apprentices from the Far East excelled in that competition. That was one of the most fascinating aspects. Equally fascinating to me was the fact that the various tools they were using were all scaled—they were all pro-rata the size of the individual. For the most part, the tools used were much smaller than those used traditionally in Western Europe. The apprentices were much smaller as well. It was a revelation to see the speed and skill with which they were working.

Senator Jago made a very pertinent point when he said that the awards for those who graduated, either with a diploma or a certificate, in the field of marine technology proved the importance of the course and the usefulness of the course. Only one of them was there to receive the award because the rest were literally at sea. He said business people were becoming increasingly interested in attracting young people into the field of technology where the National Council for Educational Awards operate. He instanced the recent publication by the Confederation of Irish Industry of a book on careers which is also relevant in this field of the National Council for Educational Awards.

I want to thank Senators for their contributions on the Second Stage. Tá áthas orm gur fháiltigh beagnach chuile dhuine roimh an Bhille. Tá fhios agam go mbeidh rath ar an obair a dhéanfaidh an Chomhairle agus cumhacht reachtúil ag an Comhairle ón mBille seo.

Question put and agreed to.
Agreed to take remaining Stages today.
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