Seanad Éireann debate -
Wednesday, 4 Jun 1980

Vol. 94 No. 6

Agriculture (Amendment) Bill 1979: Second Stage.

Question proposed: "That the Bill be now read a Second Time."

Minister of State at the Department of Agriculture (Mr. Allen)

The provisions of section 42 of the National Agriculture Advisory, Education and Research Authority Act, 1977, which were designed to introduce a system whereby 60 per cent of each county committee of agriculture would be members of the county council and the remaining 40 per cent chosen by voluntary rural organisations active in the county were found to be unworkable. The section was amended by section 26 of the Agriculture (An Chomhairle Oiliúna Talmhaíochta) Act, 1979 which became law on 22 May 1979.

The reason section 42 of the 1977 Act was unworkable was already explained to this House during the passage of the 1979 Act. Briefly, this was because the law provided that the total number of members of a committee of agriculture could vary between three times and four times the number of county electoral areas. This made it impossible for the Minister to designate in advance the number of members to be nominated by the various rural organisations. The 1979 Act determined precisely that the number of members of a committee of agriculture would be four times the number of county electoral areas.

Older legislation requires that the members of county committees must be appointed at the first meeting of each county council following a local election. Because of the late date on which the 1979 Act was passed and the very short interval between that date and the holding of the local elections on 7 June 1979, and the then current postal strike, there was not enough time to put the new arrangements into operation. The result was that county committees of agriculture had to be appointed last June on the old basis and the new arrangements provided for in the 1979 Act would not be used until after the next local elections in five years time. The Minister, however, announced at that time that the Government had decided to prepare legislation to enable the provisions of the 1977 and 1979 Acts to be brought into effect as soon as possible, thereby avoiding the delay of five years. He announced this on 15 June 1979 so that county councils, in nominating county committees of agriculture under the old system, would be aware that those committees would only have a short life and would be replaced by new committees when the legislation now before this Houss is enacted.

In the context of An Chomhairle Oiliúna Talmhaíochta, which has now been set up, the functions of county committees of agriculture will be altered. They will no longer have a direct involvement with the staffing aspects of the advisory or training services. The committees will, however, have other important functions. They will retain responsibility for operating livestock improvement and certain other schemes for the assistance of farmers. They will also have the function of preparing, in conjunction with the chief agricultural officer, an annual county advisory and training programme. Committees will also have the task of ensuring that An Chomhairle, as a national service, is also responsive to the needs of the agricultural community at local level. With this altered involvement and responsibility of county committees, the inclusion of representatives nominated directly by voluntary rural organisations in each county will provide a necessary broadening of the spectrum of interests, knowledge and expertise of the members.

This new Bill, therefore, provides for early reconstitution of committees of agriculture on the new 60-40 basis and, as a corollary, for the termination of the term of office of existing committee members. The change will take effect in each county on the occasion of the first ordinary meeting of the county council after a date to be designated by the Minister when this Bill is enacted.

I commend this Bill to the House.

Mr. Connaughton

In giving the Bill a guarded welcome, I take the opportunity to welcome the Minister of State. It is the first time that I have been involved in a discussion in his presence and I wish him well in his new post.

This Bill is long overdue. It is high time that the farming community, through the voluntary organisations, were given a say in the membership of the county committees of agriculture. The Bill has a certain number of defects but at this stage a reasonable Bill is better than no Bill at all.

I welcome the involvement and expertise of farmers who have to make a living from farming. There is no doubt that any full-time farmer who has to go through the rigours of making a living from the land, is entitled to be a member of a county committee of agriculture. It is a far cry from the days when we had all kinds of people who had not the slightest interest in agriculture and, while some of them made a contribution, others had no interest in it other than being on various committees with all the attending possibilities they might have, for example, through expenses and so on. Over the years the county committees of agriculture—I happen to be a member of one in Galway—have outlived their usefulness in the sense that the rate of progress in farming seems to have outpaced them. At budget time in the committees of agriculture, one would have to get the go-ahead from Dublin to purchase a biro even though the committees are established by statute. Through the Department of Finance, the activities of the county committees of agriculture have been very much curtailed.

There is great potential for the new type of county committees envisaged here. There are a certain number of politicians who would argue that 40 per cent is too great a percentage of people from voluntary organisations. I do not agree with that. I believe that there has to be a platform for people who are leaders in their own particular walks of life. I hope they will make good use of it.

There are a number of questions this Bill raises. I read the passage of the Bill through the Dáil. This was involved in the setting up of AnCOT some time ago. Who will define the number and kind of organisations that will be entitled to be on the board? Who is to say that the 40 per cent would be drawn in a certain manner one way or another? When the Bill was passing through the Dáil that question was not answered. It is easy enough to create a situation where the fly-by-night organisations that mushroom up could be cut out. What type of mechanism is there to ensure that a particular organisation does not decide to have the whole lot? If there are a number of organisations that would like to be on this and if by allowing a member from each organisation on it it goes above 40 per cent, who decides to leave the one or two out?

I sincerely hope, for the benefit of every farmer, that the new county committee of agriculture, under AnCOT and under the structure that is now taking shape, will have a more important role. It is true to say, if one wanted to be cynical, that they are now only an advisory body. If one looks at the legislation one will see that it is basically in an advisory capacity that they operate. Words like "responsive to the needs of the local community" could fall on very deaf ears if the bureaucracy that was involved begins to raise its ugly head again under the new director of AnCOT, for whom I have the highest personal regard. I hope that he will not be hand-tripped by all types of bueaucracy of one type or another and that the obvious flare he has for Irish agriculture which he showed in the Agricultural Institute, will show through in the agricultural advisory service and all the training services that are so vitally important.

Whatever else happens, the central and regional directors should be given a reasonably free hand, because there is a power of work to be done in the whole area of agricultural advisory work and agricultural education. It is tragic that the Bill does not incorporate the Agricultural Institute under the one roof. I am amazed that the research wing of this important organisation will be left out. I know that it is water under the bridge and there is nothing we can do about it here this evening, but I place on record my absolute regret that the institute is left out from under this umbrella.

The stage has been reached where AnCOT will have a tremendous job to rejuvenate the framework and services that work for them on behalf of Irish farming. It is true to say that, despite the best efforts of all involved there was a certain sense of decay and frustration right through even down to the local agricultural adviser. We have to hand it to them that, over the years, they have been an important factor in our agriculture advancement. There is a certain degree of cynicism at this stage right through the various services. I hope that the AnCOT people, who are now charged with the responsibility for them, will be in a position to get fire back into their bellies.

Not many years ago a lot of people who worked in rural Ireland were not too worried about a 5 o'clock finish in the evening or about overtime for lectures or whatever. I know that times have changed and that one has to treat the farming folk in the same light as anybody else nowadays with the advent of television and so on. But the time has come for people with enthusiasm and ambition, who are in the services, to be recognised and given various positions of trust. If we are unable to get new entrants into agriculture trained to a certain degree of proficiency, there is no point in the world in talking about Irish farmers being able to compete with any farmers in Europe or anywhere else. We are making reasonable progress but we are absolutely miles behind.

I hope that the new county committees of agriculture will play a 100 per cent greater role in the activities of farming, in solving problems that beset all farmers and that reasonable note will be taken of what they have to say. There is nothing so frustrating as to sit around a table for two or three hours one day a month—and there are many people listening to me today who are in a similar position—to be told that there are certain rules that govern particular situations or that there is no money for this, that or the other. If 20 committed people in a county like Galway, or any other county, think that a certain line of action is good for the farmers of County Galway, it is only right and fair that people in higher authority would listen to what they have to say. For the ten or 12 months that I have been on the Galway Committee of Agriculture I could not say that our views were listened to because we seem to be hitting our heads off a stone wall most of the time. I am making that special appeal. I welcome the Bill as far as it goes. I will be delighted to see 40 per cent of the membership coming from the farming organisations. I hope that they will accept the responsibility, do a good job and knit in nicely with the elected representatives. From the point of view of the committee of agriculture, I hope all will be working for and on behalf of the particular county.

Reference was made in the Minister's speech to the fact that one of the functions of the new county committees will be to draw up a plan of activity for the year for both training and advisory work. The new AnCOT authority should not alone hope that this would happen, but should make sure that every committee of agriculture has a plan of action for the advisory service for that year. There should be certain goals to be achieved and certain questions asked at the end of a period of time if they were not achieved. The time has now come in this competitive age when all things can be measured to some degree or other. A plan of action should be followed and, at the end of the day, the AnCOT authorities should have a full appraisal of the situation. In any county that is not pulling its weight, no matter in what section, somebody should do some hard talking.

I hope that the change means that the county committees of agriculture will mean far more in the future to farmers than they have in the past. I am sorry that the institute are not involved and are not under the umbrella of the AnCOT authority. Perhaps where the institute people are on the ground they might be given one of the seats on the committees of agriculture so that at least we would have a link with them.

Mr. O'Toole

I do not commend the remarks of Senator Connaughton in connection with past members of committees of agriculture throughout the country. I represent County Mayo and am a member of that committee for over 20 years. I should like to pay tribute to the members of my committee for the work and talented effort they have put into the working of the Mayo Committee of Agriculture through the years. We have embarked on many programmes, and I am delighted that our CAO at present, Mr. Paddy Brennan, has been selected as one of the regional managers under the new AnCOT Bill.

Many people of different shades of political affiliation have represented the committee and given worthwhile service in Mayo and worthwhile time to the agricultural industry. Our pig producing programme, milk programmes and five year development plan for increasing livestock units are a major success and on stream and on target. I should like to pay the highest tribute to the outgoing members of the old committees of agriculture. I understand quite well that the Minister's delay in finalising this section is because of the reason mentioned in his opening speech. I welcome the Minister and wish him every success in his Department.

As regards the system of selection in the past, in Mayo at any rate it may have been done by the political parties. I assure Senator Connaughton, who is very new in the field of activity of any committee, that the political parties in Mayo always selected men of the highest integrity and knowledge of agriculture in their own field who made a worthwhile contribution.

Mr. Connaughton

They would all be Fianna Fáil?

Mr. O'Toole

I can answer that if the Senator likes.

An Leas-Chathaoirleach

The Chair would prefer if all Senators confined their remarks to the Bill before the House.

Mr. O'Toole

I have a measure of doubt that the same will apply in the selection of the 40 per cent in the new AnCOT Bill. If one gets a county council where there is a political majority and one picks 60 per cent of them from a party and the rural organisations pick another 40 per cent, possibly orientated to the same political party, then one will have, under the new AnCOT Bill, a political committee of agriculture. Whatever might be said about the old committees they were fairly distributed throughout the county and fairly representative of the whole community. They served a very useful role up to now. We have only to await the results of the new committees and the production that we will receive from them.

I want to ask the Minister in connection with—I think I mentioned this before—rural organisations that will have membership of the various committees. While you take western committees such as those in Galway, Donegal, Sligo, Mayo, part of Kerry and Waterford, you have people who have their own county hill sheep organisations and are carrying out a great portion of the work of the committees of agriculture in the various counties I mentioned. I would welcome especially people with high intensification of hill sheep farming who are representing that section of the agricultural sector who would be considered for membership in the 40 per cent mentioned under the Bill.

I think that there are certain sections in the horse industry who are not nationally represented. I feel that these people may not have access to the committees unless they are picked by political parties to represent them on the new AnCOT committees. I would especially welcome the hill sheep farmers being represented and I feel that much useful work could be achieved for that section of the community. They are going through a very lean time at the moment and have gone through a lean time in the past. They should have a voice and I appeal to the Minister to give them a voice on the committees where there is a heavy concentration of hill farming, along the coast.

Mr. Markey

The purpose of this Bill, according to the Minister, is to broaden the membership spectrum of committees of agriculture, so that people outside the public representative sphere will have an interest and an investment in the functioning of the committees of agriculture. It is also an attempt to depoliticise the membership content of committees of agriculture and to give them that broader spectrum of interests with which I agree. There are certain committees of agriculture who have adopted a system which the Minister is now exhorting in the legislation. For instance, my own county of Louth has had since 1967 a system whereby specific voluntary organisations were encouraged to nominate a number of members to the Louth/County Committee of Agriculture. As far back as 1967 Louth County Council indicated that they would give membership on the committee of agriculture to the IFA, to the small farmers' association and to Macra na Tuaithe. That has been adhered to in the past 13 years and it has operated very successfully. We were not sinful in any regard in this matter of de-politicising the membership of the committees of agriculture. The net outcome of it all has been, with the operation of these new regulations, that Louth County Committee of Agriculture will pay a price for exercising their virtue rather than for sinning, because of the 16 members on the committee of agriculture which has now divided on a basis of 12 public representatives and four for rural voluntary organisations, that will now have to change under the new arrangement to ten elected representatives and six for rural voluntary organisations.

Louth County Committee of Agriculture, immediately after the local elections in 1979, sought agreement from the Minister and his Department to an extension of the numbers of the membership of committees of agriculture in particular instances, if not on a general basis, from 16 to 20. This would have allowed the new percentage allocation of 60 per cent and 40 per cent to operate on the basis whereby the existing 12 public representatives could continue in their positions and would give an increase in the allocation for rural voluntary organisations from their present four up to eight. Louth County Committee of Agriculture exhorted the Minister to do this but, unfortunately, in the past month our reasonable request was rejected. It will mean that certain members will have to drop off committees of agriculture. It will also mean that the representation which has been available to certain voluntary organisations by certain counties will have to be adjusted and that may well result in a situation whereby certain voluntary organisations, who have had membership on committees of agriculture up to now, may well find themselves, under the new regulations, not having any membership content at all.

To that extent these regulations are unfair to the committees of agriculture which have operated in accordance with the principle which the Minister is himself advocating. Even at this late stage, I suggest to the Minister that he should have another look at this. It may involve a statutory amendment to allow flexibility in regard to the number of members on committees of agriculture vis-a-vis the number of electoral areas there are in each county, but that is only a statutory amendment which can be adjusted. It could well be a very profitable exercise to amend it, if it means the retention of members of the present committees of agriculture rather than ejecting them from their positions, and it could be a very profitable and beneficial exercise if it allows those committees which have operated with this principle over the past decade or so extend the membership from rural organisations. Having made that point, I exhort the Minister, even at this late stage, to think again about the membership content of committees of agriculture.

The delay in the Bill being implemented is going to produce and present certain technical difficulties for the committees of agriculture, namely in regard to the holding of their annual general meetings and the appointment of new chairmen. The Minister stated that he will designate a date which will determine when the new committees of agriculture will come into operation. I would ask the Minister to let us know, since we are nearly at the 12th hour before the implementation of this legislation, when he expects that date will be announced and what that date will be, because very many county councils are holding their annual general meetings this month. They will be followed very shortly by the annual general meetings of committees of agriculture because they are tied to holding them within a certain limited period, varying from one year to the next, within 14 days from when they held their AGM the previous year.

It is imperative for the Minister to indicate very promptly when the new committees are to be set up. Will it mean that if there is any delay the present committees must continue as they are? Can they hold their annual general meeting which should, perhaps, in certain instances be held no later than the third or fourth week of June? I would like the Minister to give his opinion on that point.

AnCOT is a crucial development in the agricultural sphere and it is unfortunate that it is starting off in possibly one of the worst financial circumstances and financially unfavourable times for the establishment of such an important body. The estimates which the committees of agriculture submitted to the Department at the end of 1979 for 1980, have been cut back in a shameful manner by the Department. Whichever officials were responsible for the pruning of those estimates they have not done a worthy service to agriculture. We have found in Louth that the estimates for 1980 were based on the money actually spent at the end of 1979, notwithstanding a commitment that may well have been given in the course of 1979 to further expenditure. That commitment had to be met and was met, and yet the actual money was not paid out until 1980.

The officials of the Department, in drawing up what would be the estimates applicable for 1980, disregarded a commitment by the committees of agriculture to expenditure for the remaining part of 1979. Because the moneys were not paid out and because the cheques were not signed before the end of 1979, there was a disgraceful cutoff point. That sort of pruning by the Department, allied to the very unfavourable financial circumstances of the present time and to the depressed air of confidence in the agricultural community, is not the most favourable and not the most optimistic sign for the establishment of such an important body as AnCOT. I request the Minister to look at the finance that will be available for the establishment of AnCOT and for the running costs and operations of all the committees of agriculture in 1980.

The scholarship schemes that have been operated by the committees of agriculture in recent years have been very successful. They are attended by an ever-increasing number of young people. Ten years ago, in many county committees of agriculture, they could not get enough applicants to take up the scholarships that were available. Now we find that there are far too many looking for far too few places. It is not a realistic sign for any farmer or anybody interested in the agricultural sphere to find in that environment that the estimates available for scholarships in 1980 have been so radically cut.

In my own county we have been operating on this basis for the past 13 years and it is not new to that extent except that we are going to have to ask a few public representatives to take themselves elsewhere. We are going to throw into the melting pot the making up of the voluntary organisations and even the identification of the rural voluntary organisations as regards making up the balanced membership of the Committee of Agriculture. There is no guarantee in my county that a body such as the small farmers' association or Macra could be one of those favoured bodies. I would like the Minister to give some indication as to how the identification of these bodies, their listing for allocation of the 40 per cent allocation, is going to be determined. Will he do it solely on his own judgment? Will he do it in consultation with the committees of agriculture in each county? Will he do it in consultation with all the voluntary organisations that are applicable and operating in each committee? I suggest that he seek the opinion of the committees of agriculture in each county on this important matter before he makes his decision.

Again, I exhort the Minister to have another look at the estimates that have been approved for the committees of agriculture for 1980. It is a wrong basis on which to start a new agricultural environment in this country. A lot of work, advice and research has gone into the establishment of AnCOT. It would be a pity if they were to start their operation on such a short shoestring as has been presented by the Minister.

Mr. Hyland

I welcome the Bill which is the final step in bringing to fruition the long awaited An Chomhairle Oiliúna Talmhaíochta. It is a Bill which has received a lot of lip service, some of which was deliberately obstructive and was responsible for the long delay in having the Bill finalised. Some Senators have already expressed their regret in relation to the delay. However, there has been much relevant and constructive comment, and the fact that it has generated such discussion is good and reflects the importance of agriculture to the economy. Even those who expressed sincerely held reservations about aspects of the Bill would agree that the final draft, which is very little changed from the original, provides the base on which agriculture in this country can develop and expand to meet the challenge of the future. It is obvious——

Mr. P. Reynolds

On a point of order, last week we had a complaint from the benches to say that they could not hear what was being said. I suggest that they get a quorum now that they can hear.

Notice taken that 12 Members were not present; House counted and 12 Members being present,

Mr. Hyland

As I was saying, it is obvious that the Bill gives more power and greater flexibilty to the committees of agriculture, and it was on this one point that most concern was expressed. This is as it should be, because committees of agriculture have played a very significant role in the development of agriculture over the years. At the time when agricultural education was not as acceptable as it is today, committees of agriculture with their dedicated staffs, brought agricultural education to the farmers in rural schools. If the Leas-Chathaoirleach and myself could privately reminisce we both have very happy memories and recollections of such agricultural classes and we remember with affection the agricultural instructor in Abbeyleix, Tom Casey, who did a wonderful job at that particular time. I apologise to the House if the Leas-Chathaoirleach and myself indulged in that little exercise.

These classes and the improved farming techniques emanating from them paved the way for a farming revolution which gave birth to our farming organisations and laid the foundation stone for the production of many excellent farm leaders. It is relevant, in relation to any debate on the Bill, that we should, for a moment, pay a tribute to the members of county committees of agriculture in every county in Ireland who, down through the years, gave of their time so generously to the promotion of agricultural services in the county.

Regardless of what people may say about politicians and political representation on county committees of agriculture, I am glad to say that, in my own county of Laois, all political parties are represented. They are genuinely interested in and concerned about the progress and development of agriculture. Politicians and political representatives on these committees have always done a good job.

This brings me to the composition of the new committees of agriculture—60 per cent elected members and 40 per cent representing our rural organisations. I am very pleased that the Minister is giving recognition in the Bill to the rural organisations, Macra na Feirme, the Irish Farmers' Association and other organisations which have done such a good job through the years in relation to agricultural development. In Laois, this is nothing new as we have had that kind of representation, 40 per cent organisation representation, on our county committees of agriculture for the last ten years. I can vouch for the credibility of the members who represent those organisations, for the genuine and constructive contribution which they made in relation to agricultural development in my county. I say to any Member here who has any reservation about such nominations that he can be sure that these organisations will nominate people who will do a good job on behalf of the farming community.

The Bíll comes at a time when farming has reached a cross-roads. We have benefited considerably from EEC membership. It should go on record that Irish farmers, with the full backing and support of the Government and the advisory services, availed to the maximum of those benefits and used them to consolidate the base for the modernisation of the industry from which both they and the economy in general benefited. It would be a disaster for those farmers, for the industry and the economy in general, if we allowed anything to interfere with or hamper that progress. Farmers are now suffering a severe decline in income and the falling off in farm expenditure on development is reflecting itself throughout the economy. Everyone should recognise this important point. It should be clearly understood that the increased income, and much more along with it, was spent by farmers on the development of the industry. I want to emphasise the word "spent" because when agriculture is going well, the economy is going well. We must, therefore, be realistic and face facts. Price increases in the future are going to be strongly resisted and hard fought and the Minister for Agriculture will have an extremely difficult task negotiating increased incomes for our farmers.

An Leas-Chathaoirleach

The Chair very reluctant to interrupt the Senator but it would be preferable if he would relate his remarks to the Bill which has only a few sections in it dealing solely with agriculture committees and appointments to them.

Mr. Hyland

I am sorry if I strayed. I want to make the point, with the indulgence of the Chair, that in future the emphasis on efficiency and production is going to be made the main means by which farming income is going to be increased and, to that extent, the committees of agriculture and the new Authority have a very important role to play. I look forward to the day when every farmer will be working to a farm development plan administered by the county committees of agriculture. It is only in that way that individual farmers, the industry in general, and the economy in general, can benefit to the maximum from our greatest industry.

I join with the previous speakers in welcoming the Minister of State. I know he will do a good job in his Department.

Previous speakers on the far side of the House have said it is important that we make sufficient money available to the new Authority and through the county committees to ensure not only have we a general development plan for agriculture from farm level to national level, but that we also have the resources to employ sufficient instructors to service and to monitor the development plans. I do not know of any other profession, although I am sure there are many, where a greater return would be achieved from investment than in the recruiting of agricultural instructors to prepare and to service farm development plans. I hope that the Minister of State will convey that point of view to his Minister and to the Government.

One of the most encouraging aspects of this Bill is that it clearly defines the role of the county committees in the preparation of annual advisory and training programmes. These programmes can be geared to the needs of individual counties. To that extent, committees of agriculture will become development agencies for the county and, as such, they have a very important role to play, because the pattern of agriculture varies from county to county. One of the great tasks facing county committees of agriculture under the new legislation is the identification of needs for individual counties. One has only to drive throughout the countryside to observe the vast amount of undeveloped agricultural land that we have. I should like to see the new Authority and the committees giving more thought and more time to resolving and bringing into production, in so far as they can within the resources of the Bill, the great vast national resource which is undeveloped. The members of committees of agriculture and the members of the new Authority will be anxious and willing to do that, provided sufficient resources are available.

I would like to say how pleased I am that Dr. Walsh has been put in charge of the new Authority. He is a man who has won the widespread admiration and respect of every farmer and I have no doubt that, under his guidance the Authority will progress and that farming here will progress along with it.

Mr. Butler

I have a few points to make on the Bill before us today. I am not very enthusiastic about this new setup that is going to take place at county committee level. I am not enthusiastic because I feel that people who have given long service to agriculture—and this has been said by Senator Martin O'Toole and I would agree with him—will now have to vacate their positions within the county committees of agriculture. I do think that the county committees of agriculture have played their part over a long period in the development of agriculture at county levels. The counties that I know best are Tipperary and Waterford. I know the county committees of agriculture over a long period of years. I was working in Waterford in the agricultural sector and I had communication with the people who were representing us on the county committees of agriculture there. When I came to Tipperary I kept up my contacts with those in Waterford and also made contact with the representatives of the county committees in South Tipperary. I can assure everybody that I had no difficulties in communicating with them on agricultural problems. They had no difficulty in communicating with me. I am deeply involved in agriculture and especially in the milk sector of agriculture. I am one of the management team of Mitchelstown creameries and therefore I would have had contact with the county committees of agriculture in Waterford and in south Tipperary and in Cork also.

I feel that because of the change you are letting down some of those people who have given the best service to agriculture. They are now going to be eliminated from the county committees of agriculture. They are going to be replaced by members nominated by the farming organisations. I have nothing against any of the farming organisations but I see a difficulty here. While it may not be political in the sense we know it, I think you are going to have a canvass by the committees themselves because the number of agricultural committees in counties can be as high as 12 or 13. When you have that number of committees of agriculture opting to have representations on the county committee then you are going to have trouble within the farming organisations as such. Some of those people will be members of a number of committees involved in agriculture such as the IFA, the ICA, Muintir na Tire, ICMSA, the Land League, Small Farmers Association and even the Irish Creamery Managers Association, who I think should have the right to a place on county committees of agriculture. They have a part to play there and they should be able to give some of their knowledge in that area to those county committees of agriculture. In that sense, we are going to have problems. Perhaps the problems that will arise are worse than the problems that have been there up to now.

Another thing that worries me is how the Minister or AnCOT will regulate the 40 per cent that will be drawn from the farming organisations. With four times the number of county electoral areas, how are you going to nominate the numbers from each electoral area? Will some electoral areas have only one representative from the farming organisations and other electoral areas have two or three? Forty per cent of the total number has to be a certain figure. The representation on the county committees of agriculture will have to be a certain number representing the 40 per cent, with the number of electoral areas in a county—and there are five in my county—I do not know how you will come up with an even 40 per cent and an even 60 per cent. That will create difficulties within the farming organisations and with the old membership.

The development of agriculture requires a good deal of education. There must be educational development. I am a little bit worried that the farming organisations may, like the political organisations, go for the person who might have the time to go to those meetings but who may not be the best person to be nominated by those organisations. You will have a position within those farming organisations where you will have young people who, naturally, will be interested in political life. When people become involved in organisations they develop an interest in political life. You will have that type of development taking place because you are putting them into a political area by putting them into county committees of agriculture. When you put them into that type of atmosphere where 60 per cent of the membership will be nominated by political bodies—there is no doubt at all about that—you will have competition for votes of the people who are nominated by the agricultural committees. You will have promises from those bodies—"We will think of you at the next election and maybe nominate you as a candidate for the next election if you support us", or "We will nominate you as a candidate for the Seanad election. We would guarantee you so many votes in the next Seanad election". That problem is there. We all went through it: we know what is it all about. That problem will arise.

Personally, I do not think this is the be-all and end-all of the development of agriculture. I accept that something had to be done. If the county committees of agriculture, as they were, came under the control of AnCOT, as it is now, then you might have better county committees of agriculture; you might have better advice coming to them from the top and you would get a better commitment I think from the people who have been involved on county committees of agriculture up to now. I am not enthusiastic about the Bill. I am a little worried about it and about what may happen once these county committees are set up.

Professor Keating

It was listening to Senator Butler that moved me to speak at all. I want to address myself to the 40 per cent who are not coming forward to the county committees from the traditional political process. I am not too enthusiastic about the Bill either. In fact, I will say it some other time in detail and in a more appropriate place. I am not too enthusiastic about all of our new structures in the whole advisory/educational sector.

I wanted to talk about the county committees, following what I thought was a very interesting thought of Senator Butler. He very politely and gently characterised a certain type of person who finds himself on committees in Ireland, "the person who might have the time". I am afraid that the voluntary organisations in agriculture have many such persons. My conviction is that the good times and the easy times in farming are over; they were very brief. I would like to see the county committees as engines for technical innovation for the increase of productivity, the increase of production, the streamlining of marketing, the highest possible added value, the highest possible quality in our produce, and so on; highly technical and efficiently generating and growth generating organisations. I think we have politicised agriculture too much and we have politicised the county committees too much.

All I wanted to say is that the 60 per cent will come out of the political process anyway and they will carry on the political process that they are accustomed to in the county committees of agriculture, as they do in local authorities and wherever else they can.

In Ireland we are in love with politics, not in an idealogical sense about policies and things we want to do, but we are in love and we see this when we compare our emigrants in the United States and Australia with the emigrants from other countries; we are in love not with idealogical politics but with press-the-flesh, fix-it sort of politics. The people who are golden to me in the Irish countryside are not those people; they are not the people who have time to sit on all the committees; neither are they the advisory service. The people that are really golden are the people who have done it better right at the point of production, the really good farmers, and I would add to that the people in agri-business, the people who have done something about distribution and processing: it is the really efficient people themselves who know the hardships who possess the skills, who are the innovators. My wish is that their passion and their managerial skills and their knowledge be fed into the processes of the county committee so that it would spread back more widely through the whole county.

Therefore, I would end with one plea. I do not think 40 per cent is enough for the non-political people. I would like to see it much more, but we have the bit of legislation and that is the way it has been decided. My plea is a plea that I will record anyway, without a very great hope of it being listened to. When the voluntary farming bodies came to knock out among themselves who should go, it ought not be the person who lobbies too much because they want a place there for its own sake. It ought to be almost diametrically the opposite; they should look at the whole spectrum of their county and say who is the best in the county, and that is often a person who would not touch politics with a barge pole, any of our parties, who does not think much of the political process. It is often a person who is so busy that he does not have time to sit on a plethora of committees and is not seeking committees to sit on. They are the precious people, the golden people and the people who are good at things. I would say to the voluntary organisations not to send forward to the county committees the most vociferous lobbyists who are in search of a committee, but to think of people who may not be in any voluntary organisations, not necessarily their own members who might be too busy; think of people who might be too busy and who are really good, really technically brilliant and put them in. If we are to get the growth that we all agree to be necessary, if there is to be a golden age for our agriculture, it has to come not from price hikes but from increasing efficiency; it has to come from an absolute whirlwind blowing through the country, improving our technology, improving our efficiency, improving the amount that we do as well as the quality of application with which we do it. The better the quality of our actions the more production we will get. We will be able to push the farming over the mountains.

Without much hope of being listened to, I say let us leave politics out of this business and let us leave the place of the committee lobbyist out of it as much as possible. I am begging the voluntary organisations through the House, at least in some instances, to seek out the really superb producers and organisers and managers in their counties, in their areas, and if they have no current involvement in voluntary activities to beg them to sit on county committees of agriculture in the hope that their expertise and their management and their breadth of vision would be passed on to their own areas.

Mr. McDonald

I am glad that this Bill is before the House this evening. I think there has been too much of a time lag and too much uncertainty in the committee system and with the entire AnCOT question. It is nice to start afresh to let the people tackle the different problems that face the industry at the present time. I regret that the new committees will have fewer statutory powers than those that functioned under the system that they are replacing. I have had the honour of serving on a committee for 24 years and I have had the experience of seeing the services expand and give the leadership, the assistance and the service that so many farmers of all categories have benefited from.

During the past decade many farmers could be described as being in God's pocket, but I think He has been superseded by the banks. It is unlikely that organised farmers will complain too loudly at the extraordinarily high interest rates and so on and, therefore, we need a strong, agricultural advisory service in order to equip the farming industry with the ways and the means of getting through the bleak and the difficult period that faces the entire agricultural industry at the present time.

It is important that this piece of legislation should go through; that the people who will be affected by it will have the task of settling down and working the new system and providing the services. Like many other Senators, I would hope that there would be the very fullest co-operation between all the people serving and working in agriculture. I hope that there will be a new esprit de corps between the new AnCOT services and An Foras Talúntais, and the Minister's Department. I hope that the co-operative movement and the processors in the various ancillary services will be able to work closer together to be able to provide the people at all levels in the industry with better living and working conditions.

Agriculture is facing a rather difficult period. The new committees will be expected to give a lead. It is one industry where there is always change and there must always be change especially with legislation moving through the Oireachtas, perhaps some of it prompted by directives or regulations from the EEC where standards are being laid down as we had today in packaging or quantity control. This calls for a greater input of education so that people will be helped and facilitated in providing the kind of products, in providing the high standard of products that the greatly educated consumer demands and insists on getting. This is going to be an increasingly difficult role. I hope that the new committees will be able to meet that challenge.

As I said, I think it will be difficult for them. They are starting in an era when more and more people are clamouring for and in many cases getting decentralisation. I think the central authority is taking too much control, and nothing stymies enthusiasm more than the inability of people who serve on committees to make a decision. Unless the new authority at county level is given an opportunity of really being part of an organisation where their voices are listened to and acted upon you will not have dedicated service. People become clockwatchers and the service deteriorates. This would be a pity. In my own community in Laois the last three of four committees have been representative of voluntary farming organisations as well as the nominees of the county council: we have had the 40 per cent. It has been an outstanding success. We have been able to ensure through that that we had direct access, as it were, to the organised younger farmers and the classes and the demonstrations. I think we are assured of a very ready audience and attendance. In addition, the meetings were in the main very business-minded and only on very rare occasions did party politics enter in. I am a politician who certainly would offer no apologies for being or declaring that I was a member of a political party. After all, this is a democracy. Why does everybody want to apologise for being a member of and supporting a political party? Anyone who has the interest of the country at heart, who has any spirit of nationalism, if he or she has the guts to stand up and declare in favour of a registered or recognised political party, cannot in a democracy be anything that people should be ashamed of. I am amazed that when you go into some voluntary organisation you find that you should almost apologise for showing up and showing an interest in your own profession or in your own work. We should get away from that.

The members of the main political parties in this country have done a good job on a voluntary basis at local level; they have done a thankless job. They have contributed in a very unselfish way to the building up of the various agricultural industries and ancillary service industries. I hope that they will continue to do so. At least the people who represent the county council have to render an account every five years to the people who put them on these committees and boards, and I think that that in itself is a good thing.

It is good that people should be accountable. If you look at the committees of the House here, the Joint Committee on semi-State Bodies or the Committee of Public Accounts, the fact that semi-State bodies have become directly accountable to or at least answer to a committee of the House has improved the flow of knowledge from one to the other and there has been greater understanding and I think less suspicion. All in all, I think the public tend to get a better service at the end of the day, and that is what we should be interested in and worried about when it comes to the expenditure of public money. While I am glad that this legislation is coming to a conclusion and going on to the Statute Book, nevertheless, I regret that the Government deemed it necessary that the new committees should have less statutory power and therefore, will I believe be hindered to some degree in guiding the educational structures, that they in their own expert local knowledge would regard as most suitable for the people in their own areas. I hope that the central authority will rely heavily on the views and the wishes of the county committees in the future. Indeed, I think they have always given them a very diligent ear in the past.

Mr. Kiely

I would like to welcome the Minister of State for Agriculture on his first official visit to this House. I wish him well and I am confident he will be a good Minister. In the short time since his appointment he has proved to be an able, talented and reliable Minister.

This Bill came about as a result of the AnCOT Bill to provide farming or voluntary organisations who will be electing or nominating 40 per cent of members of county committees of agriculture. Heretofore, the county committees of agriculture were appointed annually by the county council. It was generally the elected members of the council that comprised county committees of agriculture.

I would like to pay a tribute to those members who served heretofore as elected members and who were described as politicians. I think that they did a good job and I doubt if the representatives from the farming organisations will be as good as some of those people they will be replacing. Senator Connaughton said that some of those appointed previously or elected previously as representatives on the committees of agriculture were not suitable. I wonder will the farming organisation appoint suitable people. I can see where co-ops or even meat factories are controlled by farming organisations, farmers being a little disappointed with the way they are going. I see that down in Limerick—and I am sure Senator Butler knows all about it—we have a milk war at present, probably through bad management by co-ops that are controlled by farming organisations.

I would not like to see the major farming organisations monopolising 40 per cent of the seats that will be allocated to them through this Bill. You have farming organisations, as was already mentioned by Senator O'Toole probably in the west—sheep farmers probably—and in other areas you have the beef growers and you have breed societies in areas where cattle and especially pedigree cattle are being bred.

I would also like to see the societies responsible for organising agricultural shows being considered for the right to nominate members to county committees of agriculture. It might be a hard thing to do but I am sure the Minister will take all types of farming in different counties into consideration. I am sure he will consider organisations representing different types of farming.

I welcome the Bill with some reservations. I was disappointed to see that members of county committees of agriculture who have given great service and have contributed successfully to the improvement of agriculture will probably be vacating their seats to farming organisations. Farming organisations have done a good job in their own way. I know one farming organisation who made a rule that anyone affiliated to any political party would not be eligible for officership in that organisation. Now, some political members of these committees will have to vacate their seats to make room for members of voluntary organisations.

Mr. Kilbride

I do not have any desire to speak at any length on this matter. Having been a member of a county committee of agriculture for 28 years I have a very extensive knowledge of what is involved in the administration of the agricultural advisory services in my county. Some people have some misgivings and others have welcomed the new departure in regard to representation from agricultural organisations on county committees of agriculture. Under the old system before one got the right to deliberate at a county committee of agriculture one had first to go before the electorate and win support at the ballot box. One then had to face one's colleagues on the county council who had knowledge of one's ability as a political operator or as a farmer, as the case might be. In my county after a local election those with the least interest in agriculture stepped down and left the membership of the agricultural committee to the farmers. That system was to be recommended to the exclusion of any other system. The politicians in their wisdom put the best farmers elected by the people in control of the agricultural affairs of the county. I do not believe there can be any improvement on that.

I welcome the innovation where agricultural organisations will have an opportunity to have representatives on committees since this new system has been adopted. It will be possible for people with new ideas, experience and the educational qualifications to put their view across during deliberations of committees of agriculture. When a question of policy is being decided at committee level it is important that the best opinions are available. I doubt if the opinions of committees of agriculture will have much influence on what is pursued in any county. The new organisation, administratively, should ensure that the most appropriate line is pursued in any county. That should be laid down as a matter of policy by committees of agriculture. The younger elements we are expecting to be appointed to the committees of agriculture by their contributions, their ideas of modern administration and systems will have a lot to contribute.

County committees of agriculture have never had a great amount of power. They had no great authority to make any alteration in regard to the work that should be pursued in a county. That is why I feel the new system may have the effect of creating a better image, at least a more hopeful image. It was usual to go to monthly meetings and pursue certain functions such as the allocation of premium bulls, premium boars, and approve winter agricultural classes and so on. Those decisions merely amounted to rubber stamping a policy that was already decided. If there is an improvement on that it will be welcome.

I do not think agriculture will be in any way enhanced by opportunists anxious to be vociferous and place any organisation in the farming community to the forefront. They may be able to talk a lot but I do not think they will be anything better than the person who was elected by the people. To qualify for representation the organisations concerned should insist that people know about good farming in the county. It will be vitally important that this is researched to the extent that opportunists are not allowed to jump on the bandwagon and replace somebody considered better. It will be difficult for a member of a committee of agriculture, even a shopkeeper, to have to stand down in the middle of a term. It will be a serious jolt to those who put a lot of effort into this and dedicated their services over many years to the interests of agriculture. I hope for a better system. If that does not happen let us hope it will be altered.

Mr. Mulcahy

When I first became a Member of this House in 1977 I spoke on agricultural policy and one of the points I made was about the productivity of agriculture. From recent figures it appears that we are not making much progress in the dimension of milk yield.

An Cathaoirleach

The Bill relates to the appointment of county committees and we cannot have a general debate on agriculture.

Mr. Mulcahy

In fairness, the Chair came in very quickly on me. I see these committees as being central in helping to promote the activity, the husbandry and the management required. One of the points mentioned by the Minister was that they would be responsible for the development of livestock. It seems that agricultural output at present is limited by that very dimension, the yield per cow. In 1977 I made the point that we needed more advisers. I am not an expert on agriculture and I am sure my friends down the country will want to know why I am talking about agriculture and will suggest I stick to industry. However, the figures have a stark realism for me. It seems that until output goes from 600 gallons per cow up to 800 or 900 gallons on average we will not be making progress. I hope that the reorganised committees will move forward and encourage the progress required to achieve those levels. The industry of Ireland depends on the farmer of Ireland. Effective committees of this kind can contribute tremendously in that regard.

I should like to join with my colleagues in welcoming the new Minister of State to the House and assure him of our support in the future.

Minister of State at the Department of Agriculture (Mr. Allen)

I do not propose to answer all questions raised many of which are totally irrelevant to the legislation before the House. However, I should like to comment on a number of matters that were raised. Before doing that I should like to refer to Senator Connaughton's remarks about members of committees of agriculture. For a member of a county committee of agriculture to say that such people only became members, in many instances, to collect expenses was the lowest remark I have ever heard as a politician. He must be referring to members of his own committee because from my knowledge of members throughout the country, I have nothing but the highest respect for such people, I am sure members in Galway will remind him of his remarks.

Senator Connaughton asked who will determine the organisations. The Minister will determine the organisations in each county. Section 24 of the AnCOT Act states that:

Every person appointed to be a member of the committee of agriculture shall be chosen or nominated for appointment by reason of attainment in the practice of farming, the development of agriculture, promotion of agriculture or rural home advice or education or by reason of a practical, commercial or technical knowledge of agriculture or a special local knowledge of agricultural matters.

That is very important. It is possible that Senator Connaughton was referring to people not included in those categories. It is possible that in future we will have people of the proper calibre from Fine Gael on such committees.

Senator O'Toole mentioned sheep farmers and I have no doubt that they and the horse industry will get every consideration. Senator Markey asked about increasing the number of members at county committee level. I should like to state that the number of counties where members of county councils will have to leave committees of agriculture is 12 out of a total of 27 committees. Senator Markey's neighbouring county man, Deputy Tully, when Minister for Local Government, reduced the number of electoral areas in Louth from five to four. That meant that the membership of the county committee of agriculture in Louth was automatically reduced.

Mr. Markey

That is not the point.

Mr. Allen

It is. The Senator wanted the membership increased.

Mr. Markey

The Minister of State has missed the point. I made the point that membership should be increased on the basis of what is there at present and the practice in each county at present.

Mr. Allen

I was returning to the situation as it obtained up to the change of Government.

Mr. Markey

It has nothing got to do with the point I made.

Mr. Allen

It has. There would be greater representation on Louth County Committee of Agriculture if County Louth had been left with five electoral areas rather than the four to which it was reduced. To increase the size of committees of agriculture any more than they are would make them unworkable. A number of Senators mentioned the delay in bringing this legislation forward. This legislation took seven months to get through the Dáil because of opposition to it. That was the cause of the delay. Because of the delays we have to bring in this amending legislation to put the matter right in so far as county committees are concerned.

A lot of people have been under the impression that the Minister is the person who will determine who will be nominated by rural organisations. The Minister will not have any say. He will designate the organisations who will have the right to nominate in any county. It would be most unfair to cover the country entirely. It will have to be done on a county by county basis because some counties have the ICMSA while others do not. I am just taking that organisation as an example. I can promise Senator Hyland and others, who mentioned the question of adequate finance for AnCOT that we will make all the necessary finances available to ensure that it gets off the ground. I was delighted to hear so many people mention Dr. Tom Walsh, a county man of my own. It is true to say that when he was in the Agricultural Institute he did an excellent job and I have no doubt he will get AnCOT off the ground and moving.

Senator Keating was not satisfied with the 40 per cent for rural organisations. There is nothing to stop any county switching it the other way round if they wish and giving the 40 per cent to elected members and 60 per cent to rural organisations. That will not be a rigid situation, but a minimum of 40 per cent have to be selected members. Any county council wishing to extend the 40 per cent rural organisation representation to 60 per cent con do so. The previous Minister for Agriculture, prior to the election of the present committees, said that he intended bringing in amending legislation to ensure that rural organisations would be appointed to those committees. This is in a new ball game. County councils will appoint 60 per cent of the membership and they will be notified, in due course, when the Minister has taken the decision on the rural organisations to be nominated. I expect that will be in the next month to six weeks. There will not be much delay, possibly a month. Some counties—my own, for example—when electing the previous committee decided that the 60 per cent would be appointed from the existing membership. They know that when the Bill becomes law they will have to go. That will not happen in every county.

Question put and agreed to.

Agreed to take remaining Stages today.