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Seanad Éireann debate -
Wednesday, 25 Jun 1980

Vol. 94 No. 11

Trading Stamps Bill, 1979: Second Stage.

Question proposed: "That the Bill be now read a Second Time."

I think that Senators will, by and large, be aware of the public debates which arise from time to time as to the merits and value of trading stamp schemes, and that it is not, therefore, necessary at this stage for me to go into detail on the economics or actual operation of such schemes. Suffice it to say that the legislative approach of other countries in the matter has varied from outright prohibition in certain cases to a more flexible regulatory approach in others.

The Bill now before the House opts for regulation as distinct from prohibition. Its nature and scope springs from a close study by the Department, over some years, into trading stamp business as it developed in Ireland. One major finding, in favour of regulation instead of suppression, was that it is the features of certain schemes, and not so much the schemes themselves, that are disquieting.

The type of stamp trading which is covered by the Bill is the general kind of scheme organised by a specialist stamp firm which serves a number of different retail outlets. Excluded are "private" voucher or stamp schemes—that is to say, schemes which are organised by a single retailer or his supplier and under which stamps are redeemable from that retailer or supplier alone.

I should say here that the major trading stamp company in Ireland has recently moved away from the usual system of central redemption of trading stamps for goods in their own depots, to a situation where stamps can now be redeemed directly for goods or services in the various retail outlets operating the franchise. Examples of the services which can be obtained in return for the stamps of one company, at least, are hairdressing and dry cleaning. This structural change in the operation of the major company involved has prompted changes in various sections of the Bill, notably sections 6, 7, 8 and 9, and these were effected by amendments in the Dáil.

I have also received the views of the Confederation of Irish Industry, of consumer interests and, of course, the stamp companies, on the Bill. In its present form, therefore, I feel that the Bill takes into account the interests of both retailers and consumers. It is concerned with the needs of retailers, because of their susceptibility on one hand to pressure to sell stamps, and, on the other, their legitimate need to adopt competitive devices, but the predominant concern is that the interests of consumers as stamp holders should be best served. To this end, the Bill adopts the approach that all pertinent and relevant facts about trading stamps themselves—and about the companies which promote trading stamps schemes—should be made fully available and accessible to the buying public. The facts I have in mind would include, in respect of the stamps themselves, information as to their real value in terms of purchasing merchandise and, in respect of the companies, information as to their financial standing, for there is no evidence to suggest that the buying public generally lacks shrewdness of judgment or common sense in determining good value for money.

Section 1 contains definitions for the purposes of the Bill. Excluded from the definition of a "trading stamp" is a stamp, coupon, voucher, token or similar device which is redeemable from the seller of goods or his supplier or from the person who provides the service. Such schemes come closest to being the acceptable type of competitive tool for retailers that trading stamps are sometimes claimed to be. Moreover, because of their limited spread in terms of use such schemes do not pose the same problems for consumers in the area of price comparisons as do the more widespread schemes. Independent stamp operators on the other hand—meaning the specialist stamp firms which serve a number of different retail outlets—will be covered by the provisions of the Bill. Such operators are few in Ireland but it is, ironically, this very fact that often leaves them in a position, by the use of the franchising system, to influence the structure of competition in the retail trade.

Section 2 of the Bill provides that only a company within the meaning of the Companies Act, 1963, having a place of business within the State, will be permitted to carry on business as the promoter of a trading stamps scheme. More importantly, however, the section waives the right of a private company which is the promoter of a trading stamp scheme not to annex prescribed accounting data to its annual return. This provision aims to make sure that the public can get essential facts about the stamp company's financial state and the likelihood of its remaining solvent.

One of the allegedly essential features of the business of the trading stamp company is the operation of the exclusive franchise. This is the system whereby the stamp company allocates stamps to one retailer, or to a limited number of them, in the same line of business in a particular area. The justification offered for the system is that it prevents direct competition among stamp-giving traders in the same business. I am sure that all Members of the House have heard complaints, from time to time, from traders who claimed to have been refused the right to participate in a trading stamps scheme for reasons which, in their eyes, were less than sound economic or business ones.

Section 3 of the Bill tackles this problem. It provides that the unreasonable withholding by a company, which is the promoter of a trading stamps scheme, of a supply of trading stamps will be an unfair practice within the meaning of the Restrictive Practices Act, 1972. The section does not pass judgment on what is deemed to be unreasonable. The determination of this can clearly depend so much on the circumstances of individual cases and in the operation of the investigative machinery that is available under the Restrictive Practices Act, the differing circumstances of different cases can be fully taken into account.

Sections 4 and 5 deal with the notion of the "cash option". This option has two main objectives. First, it provides for the indication of the worth of the stamps in cash, thus aiding rational comparison with the value of goods offered in exchange for stamps. Secondly, it offers the stamp holder the right to choose between redemption for cash or for goods.

The main objective of the cash option, namely, to permit stamp holders to calculate the worth of stamps in merchandise, would be frustrated, of course, if adequate provision were not made for the availability of catalogues where goods are offered in exchange for stamps. Section 6 makes such provision and obviates the possibility of confusion among stampholders by making sure of a reasonable time-lag between the replacement of old catalogues by new ones.

Two of the offences created in section 7 deserve elaboration. An alteration in exchange values clearly affects, in turn, the real value of the stamps held by shoppers. Where more stamps than before are required to obtain goods in exchange, this is, in effect, akin to a price increase. Hence, an offence is being created where exchange values in catalogues are altered without the Minister's prior approval. Likewise, the expectations of stampholders can be seriously jeopardised if specific goods publicised in a catalogue, and for which shoppers had been collecting stamps for the purposes of an exchange, are found later to be unavailable from the stamp company. Accordingly, an offence is being created, too, to prevent this type of situation.

The Sale of Goods Act, 1893 provides for implied conditions and warranties in contracts for the sale of goods. Such conditions and warranties are, of course, being improved by the Sale of Goods and Supply of Services Bill which, I hope, will be enacted shortly. In the context of the present Bill, however, there is no good reason why goods exchanged for stamps should not carry the same implied undertakings as to quality and fitness. Both Acts will accordingly apply in their entirety to trading stamps transactions as if cash sales were involved. Section 8 of the Bill makes the requisite provisions in this respect.

Generally, stamps are offered to shoppers at retail outlets. It is at this point of doing their business, therefore, that shoppers should have access to certain basic items of information relating to stamps offered with the goods purchased. Section 9, which was also in the Dáil the subject of amendment, makes obligatory the display of specified items of information which are considered to be those most fundamental to the shopper.

Section 10 deals with a kind of misrepresentation which is peculiar to stamp trading business. This poses as a type of promotional inducement in the form of a statement which describes the worth of stamps in terms of the money the prospective collector must spend in order to receive them. Misleading though they are, these statements, nonetheless, can serve their purpose by enticing consumers into shopping in the outlets concerned. The use of such deceptive claims should clearly be stopped and section 10 has been drafted for this purpose.

Finally, there is section 11 of the Bill which declares contracts of a specified type to be void. This section is emphatically a protective provision for traders, as distinct from consumers. Complaints have been made to the Department, predominantly by petrol retailers, that their suppliers have sometimes compelled them to offer trading stamps by reason of their operating from leased or licensed premises. Terms of leases, which have a promotional emphasis from the viewpoint of the lessor, have been invoked for this purpose. That such can happen is a most unsatisfactory and inequitable state of affairs. It is contrary to any principle of fair play that any trader should be forced into doing a business that he does not want to do particularly when, as some complaints have alleged, the trader must fund the cost of the unwanted business from the profit gained on his normal business. Section 11 is designed to put an end to this practice. Given its objective, I am sure it will have the full backing of the House. Its purpose is none other than to ensure that lessees and licensees of premises cannot be forced to handle trading stamps on foot of a condition of a lease or licence. The section will not curtail competition or limit the competitive use of stamps by those traders who themselves choose to handle stamps by agreement with a stamp company. Nor will it affect the contractual obligations as between a retailer and his customers where the retailer decides, of his own free will, to offer stamps and the fact that he offers them acts as an inducement to shoppers to take their custom to him.

As I mentioned previously, I feel that the Bill strikes the right balance between the regulation of stamp companies, the legitimate interests of retailers and the absolute right of consumers to get a fair deal. I commend the Bill to the House.

I have always had an open mind on the whole question of trading stamps. I am just a little bit disappointed that the Minister in the first paragraph of his statement wrote off the necessity for going into the economics behind it. In fact, the economics of trading stamps intrigue me and I would love to have somebody explain to me why they are so attractive, both from some traders' point of view and indeed from the promoters' point of view.

I have a general feeling of objection to promoters making money without providing any particular service to a consumer. I suppose such a view could equally be applied to the whole question of advertising, and for that reason I am cautious to approach the question of trading stamps on the basis of such an argument. I must say that I would like to know a good deal more about the motives involved for promoters, what the benefits are to them, and the views of traders. Surprisingly enough, we have not received any submissions from any bodies. Certainly, I did not receive by way of circular or otherwise any submissions from anybody in relation to this Bill. That may indeed be for the reason that interested bodies were not aware that it was coming before the Seanad today. It only came through the Dáil last night. I am not going to go back to a point I made several times so far today, but it is just another aspect of the problem.

I would have liked to have heard what business interests had to say about it. The Minister referred to the fact that they were consulted. Unfortunately we do not know their views; we do not know whether there were any dissenting views expressed to the Minister. In the Dáil the Minister, Deputy Geoghegan-Quinn, outlined the history of consumer interests in this matter. She referred to the Fair Trade Commission report in 1971 or 1972 in which they made no recommendation on the matter but offered the view that trading stamps were an undesirable method of sales promotion and an unsatisfactory method of savings. I sympathise with that view. She went on to refer to the reports of the National Prices Commission who initially recommended a total prohibition of trading stamps but later in May 1973 recognised legal difficulties involved in producing such legislation and recommended instead a higher cash redemption value for stamps and that advance notice be required of changes in the number of stamps needed for items in a gift catalogue. So far as I can see this Bill does nothing to raise the cash redemption value. It merely seeks to control it, as and from now. Perhaps the Minister has reasons for not accepting that particular recommendation of the National Prices Commission.

I would like to have heard also the Minister's views on the legal difficulties involved in prohibiting the business of trading stamps altogether. As I say, I am open-minded about it. I accept that the Minister's Department have considered this matter very carefully and have decided, presumably, if one can judge from the views of the National Prices Commission, that for legal reasons it is difficult to prohibit them altogether and perhaps it is better to regulate. Certainly if it is legally difficult or legally impossible to prohibit them—and, again, there are no reasons before the House as to why this should be the case—I accept that the exercise of the alternative option of regulation is an important one and for that reason I welcome the Bill. It is a necessary Bill if we are not going to prohibit trading stamps and I am glad to see that it has come before us.

I do not know either whether the Director of Consumer Affairs was consulted in relation to this Bill for his views on the subject. In relation to the various people who were consulted about this matter I do not think that his name was mentioned. From the Minister's script I see that various interest groups were consulted, including the Confederation of Irish Industry, and consumer interests and of course the stamp companies. I do not know which particular consumer interests were consulted. I would like to know their particular views on the subject but we do not have that information. The Director of Consumer Affairs, the man responsible so far as we are concerned about consumer interests and consumer concerns in Ireland, has not published any report in relation to the matter. I am sorry that the Minister has not dwelt on that.

As I say, I have an open mind on the matter. My sympathies would be toward prohibition but it seems to me that the case is not being argued here at all, which I think is a pity. The Minister clearly has at his disposal the arguments of consumers whoever they were, or whoever presented their views, and the views of the Confederation of Irish Industry, the views of traders but he has not offered us any of those views. I feel that we just are discussing the question in a little bit of a vacuum.

As to the regulation proposals, it is very difficult to find offence with any of them. Obviously the only way of controlling it was to oblige a promoter to operate through a company. This provides the facility of having available certain records in the company's office that consumers can consult if they wish to consult.

I wonder whether the financial records in the company's office will be sufficient? I wonder whether it would not have been better to put this whole matter under the control of the Director of Consumer Affairs in relation to some aspects? I accept that in relation to other matters it is properly within the area of the Restrictive Practices Commission certainly so far as dealings between the promoters and traders are concerned. The consumers have a very high interest profile in this matter, or should have. I think that the Director of Consumer Affairs is not being given sufficient function in the course of the making of these regulations. If I remember correctly, there is a power under the Consumer Information Act to grant to the Director of Consumer Affairs certain other rights or functions. Perhaps the Minister could enlighten me on that. I would be delighted to hear that he will be given a very active part to play in the whole area of trading stamps.

In relation to some of the other contents of the Bill itself, points that I have to raise would be more properly raised on Committee Stage. The type of situations being dealt with in the Bill are to be welcomed if we go for regulation. I certainly am pleased to hear the Minister express concern in his statement, and through the provisions of the Bill itself, about traders who are left out in the cold, so to speak, and do not have the benefit of trading stamps when their competitors in an area might have such benefit: I accept that the Minister has some difficulty in deciding what is reasonable or unreasonable and writing it into the Bill, but I wonder whether some criteria for the consideration of what is reasonable or unreasonable should not have been written into a schedule to the Bill. After all, the obvious type of questions that will occur to all Senators in relation to the matter is whether it is reasonable for a trading company to move into a village and to offer one petrol station the facility of giving trading stamps and not to the other. If the competitor complains to the Restrictive Practices Commission that he has been left out in the cold and if the promoter of the trading stamps company comes along and says he could not give it to both as it would destroy its purpose as a sales promotion gimmick, is that reasonable or unreasonable? That type of problem is very fundamental to the question. I would feel happier if some criteria were written in. Generally, I do not like putting in a phrase like what is reasonable and throwing it aside, hoping that somebody will be able to sort it out somewhere, whether it is the courts or the Restrictive Practices Commission. I appreciate that there are particular problems associated with it in the context of the provisions of this Bill but, again, I feel that the legislation would be better if there were general criteria laid down that the Restrictive Practices Commission or whosoever would have to consider determining what is reasonable in the circumstances.

I am also very pleased to see in section 8 of the Bill that the provisions of the Sale of Goods Act and the Sale of Goods and Supply of Services Bill will actually apply to trading stamps transactions. It is most important. There is no doubt that the existence of trading stamps to some consumers is very attractive. I know of many people who collect hoards and hoards of these stamps. I can appreciate the lure of the stamp but, at the same time, when you see the number of stamps that have to be accumulated to buy a very small and relatively inexpensive item of household equipment or whatever you wonder whether all the trouble is really worthwhile. I doubt it. I am pleased to see that in relation to such transactions the consumer or the purchaser in these circumstances will have the benefit of the provisions of the Sale of Goods and Supply of Services Bill and the Sale of Goods Act. It is very necessary that they would apply to such transactions.

I presume that trading stamps only apply to what we might call consumer contracts under the Sale of Goods and Supply of Services Bill. It is hard to imagine trading stamps being used in relation to items of equipment that might be sold to people other than those who purchase as consumers. The Minister might offer something on that. If that were the case, would it not be better to write into the provisions of this legislation that where a consumer buys trading stamps he is to be regarded as a buyer dealing as a consumer, because as the House is aware the rights that are attracted by a buyer dealing as a consumer under the Sale of Goods and Supply of Services Bill are far more comprehensive and real than the rights given to a mere buyer.

I do not think there is anything else I can really offer except to say that I welcome the Bill in so far as it regulates but I would ask the Minister to offer us some views on the question of why he decided it was better to regulate rather than prohibit completely. I would specifically like him to tell us the views of the consumer interests he consulted, who those consumer interests were represented by and what were their views. Certainly if the consumer interests are happy with this I will not object to it.

I welcome the Bill in general. It is wise not to prohibit things of this kind in so far as they are not of themselves harmful. So long as sales promoting schemes like this do not deceive the people and so long as they are not harmful in any way, giving as they do give a certain incentive to people to save up to get gadgets, some household equipment or things of that kind that they could not ordinarily afford, I do not think they are harmful. I believe that a lot of people take pride in their ability to acquire goods in this way and it would be a great pity to deny them whatever pleasure they get out of it so long as they are not being fooled in any way.

The Bill has gone a good part of the way to ensure that the consumer gets value. That is the basic point I want to make. I am against prohibition in general. Schemes like this should be regulated so as to ensure that they are fair in every way to the promoter and to the consumer, to ensure that people are not tricked, fooled or deluded in any way. I take it that that was the approach of the Minister, and I believe that in striving to attain it he has done a reasonably good job. Perhaps matters may come up on Committee Stage that will help to improve the Bill but in general I am of the opinion that the Bill was approached in the right way. If after some time in operation it is found not to be as entirely successful as the Minister and as I hope it will be, perhaps there will be an opportunity to amend it.

I note that the Minister has received the views of the Confederation of Irish Industry, of consumer interests and, of course, the stamp companies. These are the three main sections of people involved and the Minister has got their views. He has studied them and he is now presenting a Bill to meet the wishes of all three sections. Business being the highly competitive occupation it is, it is a pity to deny people the right to offer some attractions in the hope that that will at least attract the attention of the customer. As long as the customer or consumer is not fooled or deluded by some gimmick, then I believe that the trader has a perfect right to engage in that type of activity.

I am also pleased to see that the stamps should be marked at their real value and that those promoting the stamps will not be allowed suddenly and without notice to change the number of stamps that are required for any particular article. A catalogue is published and housewives—the people who mainly collect trading stamps—see that, for example, 250 stamps are needed to get a certain gadget. Then a new catalogue or list is issued and the housewife sees that 315 or 400 stamps are needed. She is frustrated and upset and comes to the conclusion that the whole thing was run to make money at her expense. In so far as this Bill is going to put an end to that it is very welcome. I say without hesitation that that section will be welcomed by people who like to indulge in this business of saving up stamps with a view to acquiring something that cannot be bought on the ordinary budget.

There is another section in the Bill that appeals to me very strongly, and that is the one that prevents the big oil companies from coercing agents or retailers into running these stamps schemes for them. It is a very nice provision in the Bill. I am glad to see in the Minister's speech that that is to be stopped once and for all.

The Minister said section 9 which was in the Dáil the subject of amendment makes obligatory the display of specified items of information which are considered to be those most fundamental to the shopper. That is a good provision too. It will do a lot to ensure that the whole business is run in a proper way. The Minister said that the use of deceptive claims should clearly be stopped and section 10 has been drafted for this purpose. It is a pity we do not have legislation to deal with advertisements in the same way. Of course, it could be said against politicians that it might be invoked against the propaganda they put before the people at election times but, nevertheless, in so far as they refer to stamps it is right that deceptive claims should be stopped, and section 10 is a welcome inclusion in the Bill.

I have no hesitation in agreeing almost unreservedly with the Minister in what he says in the last paragraph. It is a subject which may turn up when Senator Molony applies his talents and his legal training to Committee Stage. There are good grounds for saying the Bill strikes the right balance between the regulation of stamp companies, the legitimate interests of retailers and the absolute right of consumers to get a fair deal. I believe that in general the Bill does that, and for that reason I welcome it.

I thank Senators for their contributions. They are very welcome indeed and I suppose the history of the Bill which Senator Molony was anxious to know about, and about various incidents, are points which I think it is legitimate for anybody to make. I think he has followed the most recent public debates in which the Minister, at that time Deputy Máire Geoghegan-Quinn, in her Dáil speech went into the background to the legislation. It goes back to 1971 when the question of stamp trading was raised in a public inquiry by the then Fair Trade Commission, into grocery goods. Though the Commission's report in July 1972 made no recommendation in the matter, they offered the view that trading stamps were an undesirable method of sales promotion and an unsatisfactory method of saving. Then in their report of 1972 the NPC recommended that the Minister explore the possibility of legally prohibiting saving stamps. The Prices Commission said that the stamps were an unsatisfactory method of saving and created difficulties for individual retailers and housewives.

However, in their report of May 1973 the Prices Commission recognised the legal difficulties involved in introducing such legislation and recommended instead a higher cash redemption value for stamps and that advance notice be required of changes in the number of stamps needed for items in a gift catalogue. All this was going on, which proves that people were involved and were talking about saving stamps. Some people had reservations about them and there was a cross-section of opinion as to what should be done about them. It was in that light that the Department and the Government had to make decisions and these are reflected in the Bill which we have here now.

Senator Molony asked questions about who was involved and I would like to say that the Director of Consumer Affairs was consulted as was the National Consumers Advisory Council, who welcomed the terms of the Bill. The Director of Consumer Affairs did not offer a view either for or against trading stamps, as such, but did give observations on the form of the Bill. He generally welcomed it. Senator Molony also mentioned that nobody would expect the trading stamps companies to have sought the Bill, so to speak, but they were consulted and they gave their views. They are not unhappy about its provisions, which are reasonably balanced to provide adequate control and reasonable protection. The Bill has got a fairly good general welcome from all sections of the community involved.

Senator Molony also mentioned the director's functions. The Senator is right when he says the Minister, by order and under the Consumer Information Act can give the Director of Consumer Affairs functions under which any piece of consumer legislation can be dealt with. The Senator's idea was a good one and I would be prepared to consider giving the director the function of overseeing the operation of this Bill. That is something no one will object to.

He also raised the question of protecting users of trading stamps other than consumers. We have not received any representations from any such interested group and I am not aware of any significant users other than individual consumers. Since we did not receive any application to get involved in this matter there would be no point in discussing it. Perhaps they will arrive at a later stage but I doubt it. I have also noted everything Senator O'Brien said. He welcomed the Bill and he is probably right in saying we should not prohibit trading stamps, as such, but see that everything is right and above board, and that the consumer is protected.

Question put and agreed to.
Agreed to take Committee Stage today.
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