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Seanad Éireann debate -
Thursday, 26 Jun 1980

Vol. 94 No. 12

National Institute for Higher Education, Limerick, Bill, 1980: Second Stage.

Question proposed: "That the Bill be now read a Second Time."

Agus an dara léamh á mholadh agam don Bhille seo maidir leis An Foras Náisiúnta um Árd-Oideachais, Luimneach, a chur ar bhonn reachtúil, measaim go mba chóir dom i dtús báire cúlra an scéil a thabhairt i láthair.

Ar 12 Nollaig 1968, d'eisigh an tAire Oideachais, Brian Ó Luineacháin, TD, ráiteas ag foillsiú go raibh beartaithe ag an Rialtas institiúid den triú leibhéal a bhunú i Luimneach agus go mbeadh soláthar chaipitil ar fáil chuige sin. Dúirt an tAire freisin ag an am go raibh sé tar éis iarraidh ar an Údarás um Árd Oideachas moltaí a chur ar fáil faoi conas d'fhéadfaí a leithéid d'institiúid a shníomh isteach sa structúr a bhí nó a bheadh ann i réimse an ard oideachais.

Sa chéad tuarascáil uathu dár dáta 30 Márta 1969, dhein an tÚdarás um Árd Oideachas na moltaí seo leanas maidir leis an institiúid nua a bhí beartaithe do Luimneach:—

(a) Coláiste Árd Oideachais a bhunú i Luimneach;

(b) cúrsaí céime a chur ar fáil san institiúid seo maille le réimse leathan de chúrsaí a oirfeadh do mhic léinn nár chomhlíon na coinnhollacha a bhí leagtha síos ag na hollscoileanna nó nár mhian leo cúrsa ollscoile a leanúint;

(c) cúrsaí a chur ar fáil do dhaoine a bhí fostaithe cheana féin agus a theastaigh uathu a gcaighdeán oideachais a árdú nó a gcuid scileanna a fheabhsú nó cáilíochtaí breise a bhaint amach;

(d) mic léinn a mhealladh ó gach áird in Éirinn tré cúrsaí a chur ar fáil nach raibh ar fáil cheana féin in institiúidí eile, cé gur thuig an tÚdarás go mbeadh tromlach na mic léinn ag teacht on gceantar thart timpeall ar Luimneach;

(e) ba chóir go mbeadh an institiúid nua bunaithe ar na prionsabail seo leanas:

(i) institiúid náisiúnta a bheith ann ag plé le riachtanaisí na tíre go léir agus le mic léinn ag teacht ó gach ard den tír;

(ii) cúram ar leith a dhéanamh san institiúid de riachtanaisí an cheantair;

(iii) údarás neamhspleách a bheith ar an institiúid ach í a bheith faoi chúram ginireálta an Údaráis um Árd Oideachas;

(iv) bunreacht so-athraithe a bheith ag an institiúid ionas go bfhéadfaí deighleáil le riachtanaisí na tíre agus an cheantair de réir mar a nochtfaí iad san am a bheidh le teacht;

(v) cúrsaí céime, cúrsaí diploma, cúrsaí teastais a bheith ar fáil agus iad á bhronnadh ag Comhairle Náisiúnta na gCáilíochtaí Oideachais;

(vi) Ar dtús, bheadh tromlach na gcúrsaí ag leibhéal an teastais agus an diploma agus thabharfadh na cúrsaí sin taithí do lucht stiúradh na hinstitiúide i bpleanáil cúrsaí céime;

(vii) an caighdeán iontrála do chúrsaí céime a bheith ar aon dul leis an gcaighdeán sna hollscoileanna; do gach cúrsa eile bheadh an tÁrd Teistiméireacht (Pas) nó a comhionann ag teastáil;

(viii) bheadh obair na hinstitiúide bunaithe ar an dteicneolaíocht ach le réimse fiúntach den éigse.

Mhol an tÚdarás um Ard Oideachas an chur chuige seo leanas:—

(a) go mbunódh an tAire Oideachais bord pleanála le seisear baill ar a mhéid;

(b) go gceapfaí stiurthóir agus cuid den fhoireann sinnsireach; go mbeadh an stiurthóir ina chathaoirleach ar an mbord pleanála agus go mbeadh sé de dhualgas ar an mbord na sochruithe cuí a dhéanamh maidir le suíomh d'fháil, foirgnimh a thógáil, troscáin agus fearais a chur ar fáil, cúrsaí a chur le chéile, agus mar sin de; agus

(c) go mbeadh sé de dhualgas ar an mbord pleanála freisin dréacht de bhunreacht don institiúid nua a chur faoi bhráid an Údaráis um Ard Oideachas.

Cuireadh an chéad tuarascáil seo de'n Údarás um Ard Oideachas faoi bhráid an Rialtais ar 2 Aibreán 1969, sar ar leagadh é ar bhord Tithe an Oireachtais.

Ceapadh stiúrthóir don institiúid agus chuaigh sé i mbun na hoibre ar 1 Eanair 1970. Cheannaigh mo Roinnse an suíomh ag Plassey i Mi Feabhra 1970 agus bunaíodh Bord Pleanála sa mhí céanna. Seisear a bhí ar an mbord taobh amuigh den stiúrthóir-chathaoirleach. Cuathas i mbun deisiú Teach Plassey i 1971 agus bhí an obair sin críochnaithe i 1972. Tógadh roint foirgnimh réamhdhéanta freisin. Tugadh cead an chéad grúpa den fhoireann teagaisc a cheapadh i Mí Meán Fómhair 1971 agus faomhadh na cúrsaí a bhí le cur ar siúl sa bhliain acadúil 1972-73. Tháinig mic léinn isteach san institiúid nua den chéad uair i Mí Dheireadh Fómhair 1972.

With the acceptance of the first group of 100 students in autumn 1972, the National Institute for Higher Education, Limerick, came into being with programmes leading to diploma and degree awards in administrative systems, business studies, electronic engineering, European studies and materials and industrial engineering. The accommodation provided in Plassey House and prefabricated structures was quickly supplemented by the first phase of permanent building which, with the aid of a World Bank loan, was commenced in 1972 and completed by 1975. This provided accommodation for 1,100 students in 18,500 sq. metres.

The growth of the institute since 1972 can be gauged by the fact that in the current academic year, there are over 1,300 full-time students, and over 1,100 part-time students, following degree courses in business studies, administrative systems, European studies, regional studies, public administration, electronic eingineering, industrial and management mathematical science, materials and production engineering, energy technology and chemical technology with diploma courses in business studies, banking, European studies, industrial electronics, instrumentation and control, computer engineering, materials and production engineering and industrial design. There is also a certificate level course in data processing as well as post-graduate courses leading to the award of master's degrees and doctorates. There are over 100 post-graduate students in the institute in the current academic year.

The National Coalition Government's decisions of 13 December 1974 in relation to higher education included the following in relation to the National Institute for Higher Education, Limerick:

(i) The National Institute for Higher Education, Limerick shall be a recognised college of the National University of Ireland, with the capacity to evolve into a constituent college of the National University of Ireland or to become an autonomous degree-awarding institution.

(ii) The majority of the members of the Governing Body of the NIHE Limerick shall be nominated by the Government on the recommendation of the Minister for Education and shall include representatives from the trade unions, agriculture, business, industry and educational interests.

(iii) A Council for Technological Education shall be established to plan and co-ordinate courses and to validate and award non-degree third-level qualifications in the NIHE Limerick (and other institutions).

(iv) The National Institute for Higher Education Limerick shall be a designated institution for the purposes of the Higher Education Authority Act, 1971.

(v) The Governing Body of the NIHE Limerick shall consist of twenty-five members.

On 5 March 1975 the Government approved a list of names of persons to be invited to act on the Governing Body of the National Institute for Higher Education, Limerick. The first meeting of the Governing Body was held on 19 June 1975.

The National Institute for Higher Education, Limerick, was granted Recognised College status by the National University of Ireland in 1976, and the university was the degree-awarding authority for students of the institute who graduated in 1976 and 1977.

On 14 December 1976 the National Institute for Higher Education, Limerick, was designated by the Minister for Education as an institution of higher education for the purpose of the Higher Education Authority Act, 1971.

That then was the position when I became Minister for Education. One of my first actions as Minister for Education was to restore to the National Council for Educational Awards its degree awarding function. I had discussions in the matter with UCG, which was the college dealing with the NIHE. Limerick, on behalf of the National University of Ireland, with representatives of the governing body of the NIHE and with the National Council for Educational Awards. On 18 November 1977 I announced that the NCEA was to be the degree-awarding authority in the case of students who successfully completed degree level courses in the NIHE, Limerick, and also in the NIHE, Dublin, the Thomond College of Education and the regional technical colleges.

As a result of my discussions with the bodies concerned, a smooth transfer of responsibility for degree awards from the National University of Ireland to the National Council for Educational Awards was achieved. I want to put on the record of the House how grateful I was, and am, to the National University of Ireland and in particular to University College, Galway and University College, Cork which did some work also in this field, for making that transfer as smooth as it actually was. The NCEA was the degree-awarding authority for the NIHE, Limerick, from 1978 onwards.

I now propose to summarise the main provisions of the Bill as it has been presented. Section 1 deals with the interpretation of the various terms used in the Bill. Section 2 establishes the institute which shall be known in the Irish language as An Foras Náisiúnta um Ard Oideachas, Luimneach, and in the English language as the National Institute for Higher Education, Limerick. Section 3 defines what is meant by membership of the institute. Section 4 provides for the functions of the institute. The functions are:

(a) to provide degree level courses, diploma level courses and certificate level courses and, subject to such conditions as the Minister may prescribe, such other courses, including postgraduate courses, as may seem appropriate to the governing body;

(b) to engage in research in such fields as the governing body may deem appropriate;

(c) subject to the approval of the Minister, after consultation with an tÚdarás—

(i) to buy and acquire lands or buildings,

(ii) to institute and, if thought fit, to award scholarships, prizes and other awards;

(d) subject to such conditions as the Minister may prescribe, to maintain, manage, administer and invest all the money and assets of the institute;

(e) to accept from donors gifts of land or other property upon such trusts and conditions, if any, as may be specified by the donors: provided that nothing in any trust or condition is contrary to the provision of this Act;

(f) subject to such conditions as the Minister may prescribe, to do all such acts and things as may be necessary to further the objects and development of the institute.

Under section 4 (2) the Minister, with the concurrence of the Minister for Finance, may by order assign to the institute such additional functions as he thinks fit. Section 5 provides for the establishment of a governing authority for the institute, to be known as the governing body, and prescribes its structure and functions. More detailed provisions for the operation of the governing body are set out in the First Schedule. The governing body is to consist of a chairman, the director and 23 ordinary members. The chairman and the 23 ordinary members shall be appointed by the Government on the recommendation of the Minister. The manner of appointment of the 23 ordinary members is set out in section 5 (4) and is as follows:

(a) nine shall be appointed on the recommendation of the Minister in accordance with the provisions of section 5 (5) which draws particular attention to the need for adequate representation of industry, agriculture, fisheries, commerce and the professions;

(b) three shall be appointed who shall be members of the academic staff of the institute who shall be chosen by the academic staff in accordance with regulations made by the governing body;

(c) one shall be appointed who is a member of the non-academic staff of the institute chosen in accordance with regulations made by the governing body;

(d) two shall be appointed who are full-time students of the institute chosen in accordance with regulations made by the governing body;

(e) three shall be appointed on the recommendation of the governing body of Thomond College of Education, Limerick;

(f) two shall be appointed on the recommendation of the Minister from members of the teaching staff of regional technical colleges;

(g) two shall be appointed on the recommendation of the Minister from members of the management boards of regional technical colleges; and

(h) one shall be appointed on the recommendation of the governing body of the National Institute for Higher Education, Dublin.

Section 6 provides for the functions of the governing body. The governing body shall manage and control all the affairs and property of the institute and shall perform all the functions conferred on the institute by this Act and shall have all such powers as may be necessary under this Act for this purpose. The governing body may from time to time appoint such and so many committees as it thinks proper to assist it in such manner as the governing body shall direct and the governing body may assign to any committee so appointed such duties as it thinks fit. The acts of any such committee shall be subject to confirmation by the governing body unless the governing body dispenses with the necessity for such confirmation.

Section 7 provides for a post of chief officer of the institute, to be known as the director. The Second Schedule sets out the conditions governing the appointment of the director. Section 8 provides for the establishment of an academic council for the institute and prescribes the functions of the council. The academic council act as specialist advisers to the governing body on academic matters. Its functions relate to the planning, co-ordination, development and overseeing of the educational work of the institute. The membership and terms of office of the academic council are determined by regulations made by the governing body. Section 8 (3) lists particular functions of the council as follows:

(a) to design, develop and implement appropriate programmes of study;

(b) to make recommendations to the governing body for the establishment of appropriate structures to implement such programmes of study;

(c) to make recommendations to the governing body on programmes for the development of research;

(d) to make recommendations to the governing body for the selection, admission, retention and exclusion of students;

(e) to make, subject to the approval of the governing body, and to implement the academic regulations of the institute;

(f) to propose to the governing body the form of regulations to be made by the governing body for the conduct of examinations and for the evaluation of academic progress;

(g) to make recommendations to the governing body for the award of fellowships, scholarships, bursaries, prizes or other awards;

(h) to make general arrangements for tutorial or other academic counselling;

(i) to exercise other functions, in accordance with the provisions of the Act, which may be delegated to it by the governing body; and

(j) to implement any regulations which may be made by the governing body concerning any of the matters aforesaid.

With the approval of the governing body, the academic council may establish such and so many committees either consisting wholly or partly of persons who are not members of the institute as it thinks proper to assist the academic council in the performance of its functions and may determine the functions of any committee so established.

Section 10 provides that the staff serving in the ad hoc institute may be transferred to the service of the statutory body and protects the conditions of service, pay and pension rights of the transferred staff, which will not be any less favourable than the conditions they enjoyed while serving as members of the staff of the ad hoc body.

Section 11 places responsibility on the institute to prepare and submit to the Minister as soon as possible after the passing of the Act, a pension scheme for staff. All provisions of any pension scheme submitted by the institute will be subject to the approval of the Minister with the concurrence of the Minister for the Public Service. Every approved scheme will be laid before each House of the Oireachtas and may be annulled by resolution within 21 sitting days.

Section 12 requires the governing body to submit to the Minister annually a report of the work of the institute. The section also provides that the institute will give the Minister any information about its operation that he may require from time to time.

Section 13 provides that in each year there shall, in accordance with section 12 (2) of the Higher Education Authority Act, 1971, be paid by the Higher Education Authority to the institute, out of moneys received by the Authority under section 12 (1) of the Higher Education Authority Act, 1971, a grant or grants of such amount or amounts as the Authority think fit.

Section 14 requires the institute to keep accounts which must be submitted annually to the Comptroller and Auditor General. When received by the institute the report of the Comptroller and Auditor General must be submitted with the accounts to the Minister. The Minister will lay the accounts before each House of the Oireachtas.

Section 15 enables the institute to charge fees for admission to courses, lectures, examinations, exhibitions or any other event held by the institute or for admission to any event held at the institute. Section 16 is the usual provision that the expenses incurred by the Minister in the administration of the Act shall, to such extent as may be sanctioned by the Minister for Finance, be paid out of moneys provided by the Oireachtas.

Section 17 provides for the short title and the commencement date.

I should like to record my appreciation of the great service rendered by the planning board in getting the National Institute for Higher Education, Limerick off the ground and overseeing its development in the early years of its existence. I should also like to pay tribute to the work of the ad hoc governing body which has been responsible for the affairs of the institute since 1975 and whose term of office has been extended by me until the institute is established on a statutory basis.

The decision of the Government, announced by my predecessor, Deputy Brian Lenihan, in 1968, was a difficult one, but in hindsight the right one. It must have been tempting to announce the establishment in Limerick of a university college, modelled closely on those that were well-established and well-respected in Dublin, Cork and Galway rather than the creation of a new, and, consequently, less understood concept. The latter was the course, quite consciously taken, in the interests of the people of Limerick and, being a national institute, of the country as a whole.

It is satisfying, now in 1980, to see that the wisdom of the decision is evident; the graduates of NIHE are providing the country with a new range of expertise in disciplines ranging from microprocessor engineering to European studies, and while providing existing Irish enterprises with the expertise necessary for the microchip age, their very presence serves to attract a variety of new industries into this country.

In many senses the need to make a new start in Limerick arose from our success in the sixties in stimulating economic growth. At that time we succeeded in both reawakening Irish business and industry and attracting a considerable amount of foreign investment. Initially, and quite understandably, our development frequently depended on a large labour force eager for work, but for the most part neither highly skilled nor with a background in business or industry. The dynamic growth of the sixties made it quite evident that we had in Ireland qualities which few abroad had previously attributed to us: we could achieve high levels of productivity and rapidly assimilate new knowledge and acquire new skills. Those industrial organisations which came to Ireland in the sixties discovered many of our latent strengths and built upon them. Initially, of course, much of the newly generated employment was not particularly sophisticated or intellectually demanding. However, the sixties served to lay the foundation for a new era of development, which commenced in the seventies and is now under way in the eighties. Ireland is no longer looked upon as a source of cheap unskilled labour, but as one of the special locations where the engineering, business and scientific expertise necessary for the sophistication of the microchip era is available. As an indication of this, employment in the electronics industry in 1979 was double the 1973 level, and during the same period the value of electronic exports has grown from £38 million to £305 million. Already there are over 70 companies in the industry in Ireland, including 12 out of the top 100 US electronic firms. This would have been inconceivable ten years ago, and impossible had we not taken the initiative in the late sixties to establish the regional technical colleges and to invest heavily in the major technological centre which has been created on the Limerick campus.

Increasing numbers of our young people are now well equipped for challenging careers within their own country. No longer must large numbers of our most talented youth go abroad for employment. The drain on our life-blood has been stopped: now our able young people make things happen here and industry is now coming to Ireland in order to avail of this talent.

The NIHE, Limerick, Bill, 1980, is intended to make statutory a new and important component of the Irish higher-educational structure. It is not intended that NIHE, Limerick, should be inferior, or indeed superior, to the established universities within the State; rather it is intended that its work should be complementary and its standing comparable. Other countries have found need to introduce similar new institutions as their economies develop, and indeed the parallel drawn with the Massachusetts Institute of Technology by my predecessor when in 1968 he announced the decision to establish the institute still stands. The country is at a stage of economic development where we need a full contribution both from the established universities and the new NIHEs in Limerick and Dublin, which will be established statutorily. I will be coming before the House again with regard to that matter.

The recently enacted legislation for the National Council for Educational Awards makes it clear that academic standards are set at levels comparable to those in the established universities, while any visitor to the Limerick campus leaves without any doubt that the facilities and equipment already provided compare favourably with the best found within this country or abroad.

While equivalent in standard and standing to the established universities as a designated body under the HEA, the institute is expected to have a special relationship with the regional technical colleges. Through interaction with the RTCs, and I want to emphasise this, and in conjunction with the NCEA, it is intended that programmes and regulations should be developed in a compatible way so as to ensure ready mobility of students in this case vertical mobility. We shall have as an ambition horizontal mobility between universities and the disciplines in them and also the national institutes.

The capital investment and resources necessary to achieve levels of excellence in any discipline of engineering or science are great. However, optimum use of our available resources can only be achieved through close collaboration between the various institutions. With careful planning it should be possible to facilitate a student with ability to progress within the State from one centre to another in order to specialise in his chosen field.

In deciding that degree programmes operated at NIHE, Limerick, and accredited by the NCEA, should be both practically oriented and at the same time comparable in standard to those in the established universities, special constraints are placed on those planning and operating the programmes: not only must the programmes be career-orientated but they must also be academically rigorous. The two requirements are not, of course, mutually exclusive, but nevertheless special effort must be taken to ensure that the sensitive balance is achieved and maintained.

While the institute was assisted by its own development consultants, and monitored by the extern examiners of the National Council for Education Awards, it was recognised that the success and the standing of the institute would ultimately be measured by the performance of its graduates.

It is now widely known that NIHE, Limerick, graduates are eagerly sought out by employers, and many individuals—particularly in areas such as electronic engineering—choose from four to five attractive job offers even before they complete their courses. As a result, each year 80 per cent of NIHE graduates go directly into Irish employment, while of the remainder some 15 per cent undertake research or further study and less than 5 per cent go abroad for employment.

Not as widely known perhaps is the achievement of the smaller number of NIHE, Limerick graduates who have undertaken post graduate study abroad in a number of leading university centres. Perhaps the most vivid example is the success of European studies graduates at the College of Europe in Bruges, where over the last three years they have distinguished themselves. In fact in 1979 an NIHE Limerick graduate took first place in a class of 130 postgraduate students drawn from leading educational centres throughout the European Community.

Various approaches have been adopted to ensure that NIHE, Limerick, undertakes work which is relevant to the needs of the community at large. Perhaps the most successful of those has been the co-operative education programme whereby every national diploma and every degree student spends one or two six-month periods in employment off campus.

The co-operative education programme introduced in Limerick is new to the country and is perhaps the single most important element of the innovation on the NIHE campus. Quite obviously the students benefit from their practical experience and equally important perhaps is the fact that the faculty members of the institute have an opportunity while supervising students to visit and establish relationships with a wide range of Irish business, industrial, professional and State organisations. Through this interaction changes in the curriculum are brought about, the need to mount new programmes is identified and various consultancy and research projects are initiated.

During the past year the institute's heavy involvement in the special manpower programme, designed to meet special manpower shortages, has led to a significant increase in enrolment, to a total of 2,462 students, of whom 1,302 are full-time. While the existing facilities have been modified to some extent to cope with the increased numbers, I was pleased to announce recently that a major expansion is at an advanced planning stage. When complete this will more than double the available capacity. In the interim I know that various arrangements are being made to accommodate the increased enrolment planned for the forthcoming academic year.

Because of its special mission the institute has focussed on the disciplines of engineering and business and in 1979 over 350 new full-time students entered the College of Engineering and Science, while over 280 entered the College of Business. In terms of size alone the institute has therefore become the country's main source of engineering graduates and after UCD the country's largest source of business graduates.

I am particularly anxious to achieve a fully satisfactory result in relation to consideration of this Bill as I attach great importance for the future of Ireland to the development of technological education through the National Institutes of Higher Education and the regional technical colleges which will be closely associated with them. I have given careful consideration to all recommendations and suggestions made to me since publication of the Bill with the result that a considerable number of amendments have been made on the Committee and Report Stages of its consideration by the Dáil. This Act for the establishment of the National Institute for Higher Education, Limerick, will serve as the model for the legislation in connection with the National Institute in Dublin and for Thomond College of Education. Accordingly, I propose to introduce those two Bills immediately after the Summer Recess and anticipate a speedy passage through the Oireachtas for them.

Molaim mar sin an Bille don tSeanad mar thógra a bhfuil lán-mhuinín agam as ó thaobh leas na tíre agus an oideachais.

Ba mhaith liom a rá i dtús báire go gcuirim fáilte roimh an mBille seo agus a rá leis go bhfuil buíochas tuillte ag an Aire freisin, mar thug sé dúinn go soléir cúlra an scéil seo ó thúas go deireadh.

I would like to say at the outset that I welcome the Bill. The Minister has given a backround explanation to developments in Limerick since the beginning of the campaign to have a third level educational institute established in that part of the country. The Minister is entitled to commendation for the way he presented the background.

The movement began with a demand for a university to be established in Limerick, as the Minister has pointed out. After some time the Government decided that backing would be given to the establishment of a third level educational institution there and by degrees and after much examination, a third level institution of the kind now operating in Limerick was the one that was favoured. I want to say clearly that I believe it was a wise decision. It had become obvious, and it has become much more obvious since, that there was a great need for more technical and technological advance in this country. Even yet we often see in the newspapers that people in industry, at FUE level and at the trade union level, constantly draw attention to the great need for skilled operators and for people with high technological expertise.

If an institute of the kind under discussion today had not been established in Limerick that need would be even greater than it is. All the indications are, as the Minister has pointed out and he has given figures in support of his claim, that the institute in Limerick will fill a gap and will provide workers of the kind that will be needed in increasing numbers because of the advances in science. For that reason I think that decision was a wise one and I want to get that clearly stated at the outset.

Another point where people differed with regard to this new third level institution in Limerick is whether it should be under the aegis of the university system then in existence, or whether it should become complementary to the university system and develop in its own way. People who held differing views held these views with sincerity. Those who held that the institute should be under the aegis of the university probably believed that was necessary in order to give status to the Limerick institute, that because of the status already achieved by the universities the new institute, if it were to make any impact, would want to be linked as closely as possible with the existing university system. That was the view held by those who advocated that line of approach.

The Minister said that one of his first acts when he took up office was to ensure that the conferring of degrees or the awarding of degrees would be given over to the NCEA. He made this decision early on assuming office and, again, I think it was the correct decision. It was the wise decision to take at the time, and events since then have borne out that it was a wise decision. I believe as time goes on it will be shown to have been a wise decision.

The background to the whole question can be seen from the point of view that for too long education in this country at all levels was aimed, to too great an extent, at the academic level. The vocational schools were regarded as the Cinderella of our whole educational system. People were of opinion that children of ability, on leaving primary school should move towards a secondary school or into the academic stream, and they should avoid the technical school or the vocational school. The attitude was that it was more or less an institution designed to cater for people of lesser ability, the sort of education not favoured by parents. The whole emphasis was to get the cream of the school-going population moved towards the secondary stream, away from the vocational stream, on towards academic attainment rather than towards technical or technological attainment.

It might be said that such a line of thinking and such a system of education was more suited to generations ago than it is now. We need people of high technical skills and high technological expertise. We must have people of that kind if we are to develop as an industrial people, if our standards of business, of marketing and so on are to keep abreast of countries with whom we must compete every day. The work being done in the regional technical colleges is having its effect in helping us to turn out the type of people who are needed for industrial advance in the State.

We started off with the vocational system which got under way 50 years ago but which was left for too long without a chance of developing and creating an impact on the educational system and providing the skills and training that our people needed. Then the change came. Now the role of the vocational school is appreciated to a much higher degree. That was in part brought about by the development of the regional technical colleges which are doing the kind of work that was necessary and are turning out the kind of people who are needed. The next step was the provision of an institute of the kind we are talking about in Limerick. The figures given by the Minister about the numbers who have enrolled there, the constant growth in the number to date, also the wide range of courses offered to students there, and the obvious excellence that some of them have attained already, are very encouraging.

Another point on which some people genuinely hold different points of view is the question of the independence of this institute in Limerick. There are people who say that it should not be rigidly under the control of the Department of Education, that it should be, as far as possible, a wholly independent or autonomous body. Different views are genuinely held with regard to that question. The maximum independence should be afforded to an institute of this kind. I own up to having a strong belief that it is necessary that the people who provide the funds must ensure that an institute of this kind is doing what it was intended to do. I do not think that the Minister would wish to wield undue or certainly a restrictive influence on an educational establishment of this kind but people who hold different views on this are entitled to express them. The Minister has given an indication of the fact that he is prepared to listen to views by saying that he was in consultation with numbers of different people over a long period, that amendments were accepted in the Dáil and the Minister has invited amendments here too. That is the right approach. A development of this kind in this country is new. Nobody can speak with great assurance on the assumption that he himself knows exactly what is the right way to run this place, what is the right system, what power the governing body should have, what types of vocations and interests should be represented on the governing body, whether the block grants system would not be the best way to run it, and so on. There are different views held on matters like that by different people.

The Minister said today, and in the Dáil, that there were on the Continent institutes of this kind that were under close control by the government department responsible for education and that they were working successfully. In some parts of the world it is held that if third level education is to develop in the way that it should develop it must be absolutely free from outside control. It can be said that in certain parts of the world some governments make use of their power to see to it that the ideology which is held in favour in that State at the time is indoctrinated into the people at all levels of education. I do not foresee something of that nature happening in this State in our time but it is the case that is made by people who claim that there should be maximum autonomy and independence in the running and governing of these third level institutions.

I hope as time goes on and more funds become available that halls of residence will be provided at Limerick and, perhaps, at Glasnevin. The ordeal that students have to go through when they come to enrol in universities in Dublin, Cork or Galway, looking for a place of residence or digs, is the next thing to a nightmare. Provision should be made that would ensure that the institute in Limerick, as it develops, would go as far as possible to provide a hall of residence for these students to ensure that they do not have to endure the torture of going through the streets of Dublin and knocking on door after door in the hope that they can find accommodation. They are told by people who provide accommodation for guests that, if they are university students, on no account will they be taken in. That is happening with the result that students looking for accommodation are being driven further and further to the extremities of the city and away from the university centre. The question of travelling in and out to lectures is becoming a serious matter for parents who have to provide the cash. I would hope it is the intention of the Minister in time to ensure that residential accommodation will be provided in the institution in Limerick and elsewhere.

I want to make one last suggestion. Probably it will appeal to the Minister as much as it does to me but he is in a better position to have something done about it than I am. Recently I saw the results of a survey of the numbers of people in different areas receiving third level education. It was based on so many per 10,000 of the population. I was sorry to see that Monaghan, part of the Minister's constituency, is down at the very bottom. His county, and mine, County Cavan, are not too far up either. Indeed, this percentage of people from our end of the country who are availing of third level education is not as high as we would like it to be. I hope that sometime the Minister will do something about setting up an institute at that level in our part of the world.

It is with great pleasure that I take this opportunity to speak on the Second Stage of this most important Bill. I want to make a few points for the record which are important as far as I am concerned. I must say I am surprised that during the debate on a Bill of such importance in the field of education there is such a very bad turnout in the House. There is no university Senator in the House at the moment. If this is an indication——

Acting Chairman

The Senator is not entitled to refer to people's absence or presence.

I suppose I should not but I feel strongly about it. I will start by talking a little bit about the origin of the National Institute for Higher Education, Limerick. The Minister in his wide-ranging opening speech mentioned the Government decision announced by the then Minister for Education, Deputy Lenihan, in 1968. I am sure the House will forgive me if I go back a little further and recall an occasion when a previous Minister for Education, Mr. Donogh O'Malley, sent me, as chairman of the Regional and Technical College Steering Committee at the time, and another member, another Limerickman, Eamonn MacDermott, to Limerick to have discussions with the committee which at the time was pushing for a university in Limerick. I make this point to the House because I want to stitch Donogh O'Malley's contribution into the record.

I want to put on record the incident which I am now about to describe because it is an example of how long it takes to innovate, to get things changed, and the type of obstacles one comes up against. I hope that today in 1980 the lesson of 1967 will be recalled. We were sent down by Donogh O'Malley at that time to see if we could persuade the committee to shift away from their strategy of wanting to have a university in Limerick, and get them to accept a new type of institution which would be based more on providing applied courses in technology in the business area.

Senator O'Brien brought out this point. He also said something which is very fair. People are entitled to have different views, and hold those views sincerely. I accept that. During that visit the committee were very slow to accept the notion of anything but a university. "We want a university for Limerick" was their motto. Even though we presented the scenario of the Massachusetts Institute of Technology model, which the Minister referred to in his speech, we were not able to get across to them. Eventually events marched forward. The Regional and Technical College Steering Committee produced this report which led to the setting up of the nine regional and technical colleges and recommended in that report that a very special type of college should be set up in Limerick. This was required not only because of what was clear to those of us who were thinking at the time about future industrial growth, but also because the Commission on Higher Education had just produced a recommendation for a college which was to be known as a new college. It was clear to us that a very special type of institution needed to be set up in Limerick. The Steering Committee recommended that. To ensure that a college of that kind would have the right status, built into the steering committee report was the recommendation that a National Council for Educational Awards be set up with a degree awarding function.

This was a well thought out strategy and it was advocated strongly by the then steering committee. We all know that events marched by. We debated the NCEA Bill and it is now law. When Donogh O'Malley died there was a certain sympathy with his views and, soon afterwards the Minister, Deputy Lenihan, announced that a new type of institute would be set up in Limerick. We can all be proud today that that decision was taken. What the institute is now contributing to society can be measured by some of the figures given by the Minister which show what the students have achieved, and by the influence the institute has on our industrial policy.

One other person we should mention when we think of the origins of the institute, that is, the man who was Assistant Secretary in the Department of Education, and later Chairman of the Higher Education Authority, Mr. Seán O'Connor. He had the vision to help to steer this new bucking bronco, this new rather strange animal, through the more traditional web of the educational system. Tributes have been paid to him before. I believe that the National Institute of Higher Education, Limerick, is already making a tremendous impact in our society and will even make more in the future. Therefore I would like to stitch into the record the contribution Seán O'Connor made not only in guiding the first steps of the institute in administrative terms, but also in the negotiations he conducted to obtain some of the funds which came from the World Bank.

The relationship between the National Institute for Higher Education, Limerick, the National Council for Educational Awards and the regional technical colleges has already been referred to by the Minister. It is a sensitive and key relationship. I do not know how that relationship will evolve. Some people might say the National Institutes for Higher Education should be autonomous from the start and award their own degrees. Others say the degree awards of the National Institutes of Higher Education should be awarded by the university system.

As the person who was acting chairman of the National Council for Educational Awards when the Coalition Government took the decision to remove the degree awarding powers from that body, I should like to tell the House what a rough time that was for us to live through. We had to steer the National Council for Educational Awards through a period when the Coalition Government made a fundamental basic error of judgment. To my knowledge, a sub-committee of the Cabinet sat to consider educational policy and Senator Keating was a member of that committee.

He was. I can confirm that.

Senator Keating can confirm that. A fundamental error was made which set back the development of technological education by some three years, and maybe more. The fact that this Bill has arrived in this House in 1980 is due to that. I am not making a political point. I am making an educational point, a point about educational policy. I know Senator Keating had certain views about the relative merits of the binary system of education and the more integrated comprehensive system of education. I know he felt fairly strongly that any degrees to be awarded in Ireland should come from the same origin, which was the university system. I do not know what his conviction is today. He can make his own case.

I hope to speak next.

It was a great error. It held up the development of education. Not only that but, on the facts given by the Minister about the way this institute has contributed to our development in economic and industrial terms, as well as educational terms, it may have contributed to slowing up our economic development. When the Minister took office he immediately restored the degree awarding powers to the National Council for Educational Awards and we were in a position to get under way again. In the meantime some institutions were delayed in running courses in which students expected to get degrees. There was a state of chaos. I have tremendous sympathy with the Minister on the difficult time he had in trying to sort it out. It is very satisfying to know that the National Institute of Higher Education in Limerick will now get its degrees from the National Council for Educational Awards when the two Bills are enacted. There are other institutions in the pipeline which will operate under the same scheme.

The National Council for Educational Awards, which has no axe to grind in the sense that it is not providing courses or conducting academic programmes itself, is the ideal unit to take an objective view of standards. Far from talking about the National Council for Educational Awards having a standard which is equivalent to university degrees, it should have an objective standard based on the best concepts of measurement systems in education. To illustrate what I mean, as far as I know the National Council for Educational Awards is one of the few bodies to produce a document or a report which examines what constitutes the standard in a degree. This document arose from a discussion that took place between the academics in the university system and outside of it who participate in the National Council for Educational Awards. I have no great hangup about having equivalence with the universities in terms of standards and degrees. I would hope—and we see the signs already—that the degrees that will be awarded under the umbrella of the NCEA will stand objectively as degrees against the standards and criteria objectively articulated by the council. In other countries—for instance in Germany, where they have reviewed their educational system—they are finding that the traditional autonomous education units in the form of universities might not be the best for the needs of modern times.

We have taken the right step here. If things have to be changed in the future on the basis of our developing understanding of the situation, so be it. In the meantime we can make progress. I always felt when this discussion came up that any parents seeing one of their children emerging with a Ph.D from the National Institute of Higher Education, or from any other such institution, would be quite as happy about the standard of that Ph.D when they heard their friends calling their son or their daughter "doctor". I saw that eventually that would be the proof of the pudding.

The Minister has just informed us that there are some 100 post-graduate students working in NIHE at the moment and doing programmes. I forecast that the Ph.Ds who will emerge from that system will have qualifications and standards of which we can all be proud. They will have qualifications and standards based on research work into the very area that is required for our national economic development. They will not be doing Ph.D work on esoteric explorations around the corners of some molecular investigations for the future.

Molecular biology. That is the coming thing.

I am glad to see that some of the university Senators have arrived. We can now have a debate.

They were here when the Minister spoke.

An Leas-Chathaoirleach

Senator Mulcahy must be allowed to continue.

Let us talk about the National Institutes of Higher Education. One of the aspects I am very interested in is the fact that they came up with a very clear strategy in their intentions from the beginning. In those early days I noticed a certain cynicism when Dr. Edward Walsh published his strategy for an institute based on programmes aimed at the European dimension; cynicism I think is the best word. He was clear in his strategy. He knew the type of programme he felt was required for the needs of the emerging industrial nation. Events have proved him right, and the figures the Minister gave us are an indication of that.

I believe from reports produced by the Confederation of Irish Industry recently that the export figure for the electronics industry will be of the order of £2,500 million in 1985. It is running now, as the Minister said, at something like £305 million. When you think that our export level at the moment is of the order of £5,000 million you see what we are talking about. Dr. Walsh's strategy was right. The employment in that industry is projected to be at a level of 30,000 by 1985. If a strategy was ever vindicated, that one was vindicated by the events of today.

The other dimension of the NIHE strategy is the one which relates to flexibility. The system is designed to enable, and where necessary encourage, students to avail of the possibility of vertical movement as well as—and hopefully there will be a lot more of this—horizontal movement from one institution to another, to the universities as well. Some interesting experiments of this kind are already underway in terms of movement from institutions to the universities and vice versa. The system is designed for flexibility. It can cater for students who want to finish after one year, two years or three years, depending on (1) their motivation and (2) their capacity to absorb education at that level. They can stop there and they will have a certificate or a diploma which is terminal as far as they are concerned. They can walk in to any employer and say: “I have a diploma from the National Council for Educational Awards based on a three-year programme, or whatever. I did such and such and I am now interested in employment”. The system is designed to deal with that and that is the way it ought to be.

At the same time, it deals with the situation where somebody who was not really switched on in the second level of education, or was a late developer, in the third level system suddenly realises there is a possibility of making progress. People may be more attracted to the method of the educational process in that system than in the second level and therefore lift their sights. Rather than stopping them, the system promotes and selects, and leaves it to the student to switch on or switch off at a particular level in the educational system. There are some of us today who are very glad that opportunity exists. Some members of my family are going through that system and I find a complete switch on as opposed to what was happening at second level.

The Minister said we are in a new era of development. We are going from the era where the cheap unskilled labour was on offer to the incoming industrialist. We are in the era of having dear skilled labour on offer. Far from putting industrialists off, it is attracting them even more. New industries are coming at the rate of something like 70 a year in this sector. That puts tremendous demands on our system. Again in the Confederation of Irish Industry report I see that the output at diploma and certificate levels of engineering technicians, running as it is at about 250, is about 100 short of what appears to be the going requirement.

That is a problem but, at the same time, it is a tremendous opportunity. It is an opportunity for us really to get that whole system working to bring individuals to a higher level of educational achievement and put them into very satisfying work in industry and, in the process, getting it across to the parents of Ireland that work in industry is a desirable, commendable career for both men and women and should be followed up. We have a psychological barrier to get over. The success of students going through this system, getting proper, satisfying jobs, will help to break that psychological barrier far more than the persuasion and the orations of public figures. The next step was to try and have remedial effort to bridge that gap. The Minister has told us that under the influence of the new programme to deal with manpower shortages NIHE Limerick is now handling 2,462 students, of whom 1,300 odd are fulltime. There again is a justification for following that particular strategy.

That brings us to NIHE Dublin. We had the staff of NIHE Dublin in the Oireachtas last week giving us a presentation, showing what their plans were for the future, what their student intake was going to be, what their facilities were. I look forward to the next phase of the development when the NIHE Dublin Bill comes in and we will see the sume successful performance from NIHE Dublin.

The new institute in Dublin is not sufficient. We all know that some four regional technical colleges spread around the developing areas of the city will be required. I am looking forward to a healthy network of education in the applied area of technology, of business and communications operating throughout Dublin, with NIHE Dublin as its peak and the regional technical colleges there side by side working in a collaborative stance—all under the umbrella of the National Council for Educational Awards. This is a system of education which will challenge everything else that exists in Dublin. Unfortunately, there are still some problems surrounding the position of the colleges of technology under the VEC system. I hope these problems can be resolved. I am certain that the existence of NIHE Dublin and four new RTCs will—as a new cuckoo in the nest—make a few of the recalcitrant individuals holding up progress in those areas move aside and learn from the success of the NIHE, Limerick, and the success of the nine RTCs already operating around the country.

I encourage the Minister to move steadily in that direction—the rest of the educational system will follow because it will have something to live up to. There is nothing like competition to get performance.

Is oth liom gur chaith mé an méid sin ama ag dul isteach ins an mBille ach thaitnigh sé liom a fheiceáil ar dtús gur oscail an Aire i nGaeilge, agus ta súil agam, cé go mbeidh an Institiúid um Ard Oideachas i Luimneach ag déileáil le bun-straitéis a mbaineann leis an Eorap, nach ndéanfaidh siad dearmad ar an Ghaeilge ins an coláiste sin. In ainneoin go bhfuilim tar éis oráid chuíosach fada a thabhairt ag cur síos ar cé chomh tábhachtach is atá sé go mbeadh forbairt eacnamaíoch agus teicneolaíoch sa tír seo ag dul ar aghaidh go sásúil agus go tapaidh, ag an am céanna táim go láidir den tuairim dá dtarlódh san agus dá dtréigfí an Ghaeilge go mbeadh an náisiún caillte againn, náisiún a bhí mar shaghas aislinge ag an bPiarsach nuair a thaispeán sé dúinn an difríocht idir "nationhood" agus "nationality". Mar adúirt sé, baineann "nationhood" le systems agus procedures agus structures, ach baineann "nationality" leis an anam. Níor mhaith liom in aon chor a fheiceáil go mbeadh forbairt ar chúrsaí teicneolaíochta i Luimneach nárbh fhéidir dul céim ar chéim le forbairt dhátheangachas. Mar adúirt an Piarsach, chomh fada is a bheadh duine amháin sa tír go raibh a anam ins an áit cheart, bheadh seans éigin ag an náisiún a oidhreacht a bhaint amach ach má cailltear é sin ní in aon chor an bun-aidhm a bhí ag aithreacha an Stáit seo a bheadh againn ach rud éigin eile.

Ba mhaith liom mar deireadh, in ainneoin an béim a leag mé ar chúrsaí teicneolaíochta i réimsí oideachais go mba cheart go mbeadh an bun-aidhm náisiúntachta sin, forbairt na Gaeilge mar cheann den dá theanga labharta go buan os comhair na ndaoine ins an Institiúid um Ard Oideachas i Luimneach freisin.

Because this is a subject that relates to what I spent most of my life at, I am very interested in it. I would like to go on for a long time, but I think we have agreed to stop at 3.30. I saw a little while ago that Senator Whitaker was offering so I propose to be very brief and ask him not to go away because I am certainly not going to talk it out to 3.30. I should also say at the beginning that for the next ten minutes I will be speaking my mind from this much up to now of my lifetime's experience with universities and with other aspects of further education. I do not know if there is a party whip in the Labour Party and I do not know what he said, for now I am speaking my mind. I hope I am not in too much conflict with my colleagues. If I am, so be it.

I want to disagree profoundly with the Minister and the last two speakers. This is a fairly central issue. I only want to touch on two topics, not to consider the Minister's speech in detail. The first is the topic of how you manage the third level institution. In other words, I want to talk about the governing body. The other one is whether you should have a unified or a binary system of third level education. The second one is the more important. It is the question in regard to third level education.

The first one is easily disposed of. Universities have evolved a system which gives them a lot of independence, which I believe to be a good thing. There is not enough of it and they are not quite democratic enough. But they are very free, I am glad to say, from interferences from Government and, I am gladder to say, from interferences from the permanent staff of Government Departments and, more specifically, the Department of Education, because I believe Government institutions are not capable of making useful inputs into education except in a very general and regulatory role. The history of efforts in this and other countries to run third level or other education in a "status" way is almost universally a history of disaster. It is not to take away from my respect for the civil service at doing the things they are good at. But having anything to do with the atmosphere that ought to prevail in first, second or third level education is so foreign to their ethos, it is a disaster. One needs to look no further than straight out the window, because I am looking at the slates that cover what is currently, and has been for many decades, the National College of Art and Design. If you want the catalogue of disaster, that is the place to look for it. Thank God the universities are free.

We see here—I am talking now about the governing body that is here being legislated for—25 people in toto, the chairman, the director and 23 others. Of those 25, 24 shall be appointed by the Government on the recommendation of the Minister. Then let us look at the mechanism; nine on the recommendation of the Minister, that is 36 per cent; two on the recommendation of the Minister from the teaching staff of the regional technical colleges, that is another 8 per cent; two on the recommendation of the Minister from the members of the management board of the regional technical colleges, that is another 8 per cent, making a total of 52 per cent, just over half, direct ministerial nominees.

That is not a proper interpretation.

I am glad to hear the Minister tell me, because in comparison to those nine plus two plus two, the members of the academic staff have three which is 12 per cent. The non-academic staff have one which is 4 per cent and the students have 2 which is 8 per cent. They are the total representation on the governing body from academic, non-academic and students, 24 per cent, and Minister's nominees 52 per cent, more than twice as many and an absolute majority.

Well, dear me, academic freedom. I have seen not just bad appointments made by this Government in terms of Ministerial decisions as to who goes on boards. I have seen a marked deterioration. I have seen times when efforts were made to choose excellence and to distribute the things fairly. I have seen appointments that are so shocking, of party hacks, that I worry for the whole fabric of our public life, particularly in the last half year. This is a rotten way to run any institution when we have the model of the bits of democracy that exist in other third level institutions. It is not serious, it is a joke.

The British have got a binary system in third level. They have university, technological, other third level non-university. They have an industry that is a disaster. They have a trade union structure and a management structure which are disasters. They have the most incredible classification in the work place with a rifeness of snobbery and an inability to communicate ideal leadership technology up and down in industry. If we wanted a model of what not to do in our third level education, it is the British model. We have heard stuff about MIT and it is a wonder I did not hear about Caltec and a few German high schools as well. There are examples and different countries have different third level histories. This is why the Minister's speech and Senator Noel Mulcahy's speech filled me with the gravest apprehension. I quote the Minister on page 17 of the circulated text where he says: "I am particularly anxious to achieve a fully satisfactory result ... I attach great importance for the future of Ireland to the development of technological education". There is education and it contains different portions and different specialists, but education is a unit as culture is a unit. What this Bill does is to perpetuate a binary system which is a class system, which is a system received from Britain which is a stratified system, which is a hierarchical system, which is a pecking order system and which, by perpetuating two cultures, damages both, because there is not technological education in the world, there is education, and the sniggers of Senator Noel Mulcahy about the esoteric explorations in these, I take it, his reference is to molecular biology, show to me how little he understands the whole educational process and the connection between educational industrial——

I did not say molecular biology.

All right, but I thought the Senator agreed when it was referred to. Esoteric explorations are necessary to the educational process just as much as the totally applied aspects. They are a unity. If you separate them and hold them apart, then you damage both. Our need in Ireland is to unify our culture and to unify our structures. The etymology of the word university means something and, hopefully, people with different traditions, with different attitudes, different subject matter in their daily expertise will rub off on each other and mutually benefit each other and mutually fertilise each other's minds so that we will get a total burgeoning culture. The efforts to separate them mean class, stratification, and the withering of the different aspects. On this one I believe the Minister is—and perhaps as a classicist he is entitled to the mistake—totally wrong, with the best will in the world. The two previous speakers were gratefully acknowledging that people of different views could be sincere. I have no problem with recognising the sincerity and the concern of the Minister. I will close by saying on this one, which I know he cares about, I think he has got it totally wrong, damaging for the totality of Irish culture, damaging for technological education and because it damages the quality of our cultural life in general, it therefore damages our industrial development and the whole fabric of our society. I believe it is wrong and I am sorry. I am sorry also that I have not longer to go on talking about it but it is a fundamental issue.

Why does the Senator not go on?

Because I want to hear Senator Whitaker. I said that at the beginning, and because we are stopping at 3.30 p.m.

But we will not get finished.

If Senator Whitaker is happy, I am happy.

An Leas-Chathaoirleach

The Chair would like to point out the Chair may not say in advance who he may or may not call. No Member of the House is in that position either. No one can give guarantees of who shall be next.

I have no intention of usurping the prerogatives of the Chair. It was simply that there was an intention to finish at 5 o'clock. We are starting something else at 3.30 p.m. Unless we are prepared to resume after 5 p.m., then other people will not get a chance.

An Leas-Chathaoirleach

Next week.

I was simply anxious to state my position. I want to give a chance to other people. We can go on next week. Let me amplify a little. I thought the idea of two cultures was reasonably well discussed and understood in the matter of higher education, in the matter of culture in countries. If it is not, let my say what I mean, and talk about own cultural and educational developments in Ireland. The universities ante-date modern industrial society and they bear the marks of their history on their structure. Traditionally, they have given undue emphasis, certainly undue for contemporary society, to things like classics, philosophy and some of the other aspects of abstract knowledge. Once medicine graduated from barbers, surgeons and so on, they admitted it reluctantly, they admitted science reluctantly. The two cultures is a culture based on older society and older universities on the one hand centred around the classics in history and the study of languages, philosophy and theology, where it is considered important. The other culture is the culture that is based on the industrial revolution which relates to all of technology, science——

Surely they are two aspects of the same culture, philisophically speaking.

I believe that, because they have different historical origins, there is a great need in our society to see that they do not get separated and the two strands are not kept apart. There are many countries that show further that they are being kept apart; secondly, that that keeping apart becomes institutionalised and, thirdly, that the keeping apart of what for example C.P. Snow has called the two cultures is very damaging for society, and indeed for its industry and its technology.

The Senator could bring harm to a culture by helping the cause he is advocating.

I am surprised that the Minister for Education should think that one person out of office in one small country by his usage of that term, which is the usage widely discussed when people are discussing culture and education, could alter the balance. I do not see my powers extending that far.

Snow's original use of the term did a disservice in setting them up as separate cultures.

There are realities and there are the perceptions of reality. I believe that the reality of the tendencies for the cultural and the wider humanitarian streams to be separate long ante-dates Snow by hundreds of years and goes right back to the dawn of the industrial revolution. It is a real danger of polarisation and harm in our society. You might as well blame a man who describes the symptoms of a disease in a text book for causing the disease as blame Snow for a polarisation which is absolutely real, which is very dangerous, and was there hundreds of years before he described it.

We can discuss that later.

The tendency of the two cultures to be separate is particularly serious in this island because we did not have indigenous industry. We had a tendency to copy Britain as a sense of our own inadequacy. In the great days of the Queen and her ethos we had—and we still have the remnants of it—a most incredible snobbery and class approach to education. There was a desire, naturally, on the part of tenants at will who became peasant proprietors after they had gone through the public health stage and got a few quid together. They wanted a doctor, a lawyer and a priest. They did not want to acknowledge us.

Go away out of that. The Senator has been on that before.

Yes, but it stands the analysis of the time. We are strikingly short of sending the best children for agricultural training, or industrial training, or technological training, or scientific training or, indeed, educational training, to the detriment of the country and to the over-population of professions like the medical and legal professions and, I would add, religious profession. It seems to me a description of our history. Senator Mulcahy might say: "I agree with you and it is a pity it is so". What we are arguing about is the best way to overcome it.

What the Senator did was to stunt the growth of one arm. You cannot unify two arms unless you have got them.

An Leas-Chathaoirleach

We are having many interruptions.

I do not object to the interruptions.

An Leas-Chathaoirleach

The Chair does. This is the problem. I do not think Senator Keating should be getting all this help in making his speech because he does not need it. We should have a Second Stage speech. Senator Keating to continue.

For myself I do not mind it. To say that the second arm does not exist as if we did not have engineering schools, as if we did not have schools of architecture, as if we did not have all the physical sciences, God help us, as if we did not have a management institute, as if we did not have schools for business in our universities. Of course no society can exist without the two strands and the two strands do exist. The second strand, the scientific and technological strand, came into existence at the same time as that knowledge came into existence, which was in the last century and in the century before, so both of them exist and are inseparable from the existence of a functioning society. We are not asking if they exist. We are arguing. I am vehement and no doubt the Minister will be vehement. There is a real issue here separate from the vehemence.

What we are arguing about is the best way to have really high standards, and creativity, and fully developed people, and industrial growth, the best way to find a place and respect for all the aspects of knowledge which are a part of culture. We are trying to put together all the things that are done at third level with goodwill and as best we can. I believe that a university is exceedingly valuable in its name. It does not always function according to its name. Places like MIT are in my definition, universities because of the way they have grown and diversified with all sorts of things that are a long way from technology. MIT has become a university over the past century or so of its existence regardless of what it is called, regardless of its charter. The point is that from esoteric explorations, which Senator Mulcahy does not like, to very, very applied and practical things, they ought to co-exist and the humanities and the scientists ought to co-exist. Management and business ought to co-exist with the arts. The Slade in London is part of the campus of University College London. That is not a bad place for an art school because I believe that these things belong together. If you separate them you will get stratification. The National Council for Educational Awards degrees are perfectly reasonable degrees. If they are perfectly reasonable degrees, what is the need for another mechanism for awarding degrees? What is the need for duplication?

Senator Mulcahy says he likes competition and that such competition is good. So do I, but you would think the different departments and the different universities did not compete. Of course they compete. You do not have to set up a totally parallel set of institutions just to guarantee competition. As someone who spent his life in universities I know there is no place where competition is more intense than within universities and between universities. You have it already.

Since I have a little more time I want to go back on the question of the attitude to Limerick. Listening to Senator Mulcahy it would appear that the Government, in their previous incarnation, were the friends of Limerick and that the National Coalition Government were the enemies of it. It sounded that way. I think anyone from the Limerick staff or the student body—they are all new now—would testify, for example, in my own case, to the number of times I was there compared to other universities in Ireland, and to the concern about success and growth, and the financial provisions, and so on.

I do not believe in regard to the staffing, or what was taught, or the student body, or the rest of it, that there would have been a pin of difference. There was a very great difference in the degree awarding mechanism. Therefore, there was a certain amount of confusion which people regret. Those things happen when you change mechanisms. To say that it set back technological education by three years, as Senator Mulcahy did in fact say, is humbug. He does not understand the position. In our time it may be that when we made it part of NUI we gave it a little more than it expected. It may be that the argument could be sustained. It is a vain sort of argument anyway. I am not concerned with which is better. I hope neither is better. I am not making those comparisons. Would it not be a good thing to have the best possible mechanism whereby cross-fertilisation could take place? We could have an auction as to who cares more about that particular institute. I do not think that would be particularly fruitful either. I am happy that it is there and effective. The people I know on its staff are fine people. I like its courses. It is fulfilling a need. I would argue that University College, Galway, under the leadership of Colm Ó hEocha and, indeed, of the president before him, is fulfilling that need very well in the Galway hinterland, under the umbrella of the structures of the university.

It is the function of leadership and people as to whether you have good courses. What I am begging for is that we do not have two cultures. The Minister may sincerely believe that my saying there is that danger already increases the danger. I do not think that is right. The danger of that is very real in our world. We have an under-estimation of the value of technology, and the value of overalls, and the value of manual skills.

The Senator lives in a different world from the one I live in. I am completely at sea.

That is fine. That is the use of a debate. If we express our different worlds to each other we see the extent of the gap. We have different life experiences. The Minister has been a teacher of classics in secondary schools.

I live in the world.

So do I. I believe that one can find these things in our society and it is very serious. The need to have a total and a balanced culture with the different parts inter-fertilising is very necessary. It is very important to avoid class stratification as much for what happens on the factory floor as because of the intrinsic distastefullness of class stratification. Some level of management is university degree, some level of management is NIHE degree and another level of management is something else and the trolls are on the ground, as in Britain where you have three or four discernable layers and the levels of communication up and down and the solidarity within that work area are very bad indeed.

It is a different country.

It is a different country and a different system with a different history, but I see very great analogies between the binary system, of which Senator Mulcahy is one of the architects in Ireland, and the British system. Of course they are not identical, it is not the same, but I see very strong analogies. We have the possibility in a small country and a relatively new country such as Ireland to overcome the dangers, damages, polarisation of culture that we can see in other countries if we want to take a bold step to a unified system at third level.

Debate adjourned.

In view of the difficulties in the postal service could we have some idea as to when the debate will be continued?

Next Wednesday, we hope.

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