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Seanad Éireann debate -
Thursday, 3 Jul 1980

Vol. 94 No. 14

Ombudsman (No. 2) Bill, 1979: Second Stage (Resumed).

Question again proposed: "That the Bill be now read a Second Time."

On the adjournment last night I had the chance to inquire what type of thing might fall within the ambit of the ombudsman's office. I started to give an example and Members will recall that I was dealing with the question of the supply of gas for cooking for the aged, the under-privileged, social welfare recipients and so on. The question I posed was, what would be the position of the Dublin Gas Company got themselves into such a financial predicament that they could not supply old age pensioners and social welfare recipients in general sufficient gas for their various cooking needs. The observation I made was to the effect that for economic reasons the 10p meter might have to be abandoned and replaced by a 50p meter. In the ultimate if that became economically impossible for the company they would have to instal a quarterly meter. All this would take place without the agreement of the consumer. I based my supposition on the possibility that householders without central heating are in fact saving having regard to soaring gas prices.

What would be the position of a person aggrieved if this situation arose? Would he or she come within the ambit of the ombudsman? It appears to me that there is no adequate provision to deal with such a situation. There is no point in saying it can be raised with the director of consumer affairs. That could not be the case since in the first instance the Prices Advisory Body would have provided the Gas Company with the opportunity of increasing the price of gas bringing it to a level where the 10p would not be a viable proposition. Where do they go from here? This is a basic human need that must be met for our senior citizens and the under-privileged and if we do not provide for it, it is no less exploitation than any other harmful exploitation because fuel, food and shelter are basic human rights. When these are threatened there must be some institution to protect those human rights. I cannot see those concerned having any redress in the courts. It may be a very extreme example. Nevertheless, it does pose a problem. It could well be that before we know where we were we would be confronted with a very awkward situation—if not this, something similar. It is an area of conjecture which I think might provoke some thought.

Again, there is the matter of perhaps a drab, cold, badly-constructed and uninviting schoolhouse. Would this come within the ambit of the ombudsman? If this matter is put to a TD and he raises it by question in the Dáil and gets an unsatisfactory answer from the Minister, there does not seem to be any access to the courts. Yet the children in that school are vulnerable and so are the parents and many of them may be able to produce evidence to that effect. Where are their human rights in this particular situation? That is another area for consideration. I do not suggest that it should be immediately brought within the ambit of the ombudsman's office but it is necessary to make some observations that are a little provoking.

I did say that I would not go too far on this occasion on the matter of a charter of human rights and I think I have stuck to that very well. Despite this, I think it would not have been correct for me if I had failed to make some observations touching on the whole question of a need for a charter of human rights. It might be understood that my party and myself believe that the appointment of an ombudsman is in fact an adequate measure in regard to the whole question of human rights. That is not the case. Even though I feel the coming of this Bill before the House is one of the most promising developments on the question of citizens' rights, I do not want to be taken as implying that the question of a charter of human rights is not still a big issue. Of course it is and there is good reason for this. The growth in the number, size and power of large organisations in both the public and the private sector has affected our lives and rights as citizens generally to the extent of threatening our freedoms. Therefore, it is of growing importance that in this complex modern society the ordinary citizen should have a system of watchdogs to protect the rights and liberties that he cherishes against the abuses of power in both the public and private sectors.

We must encourage the establishment of the most effective machinery for ensuring that fundamental rights and liberties are not eroded. The Ombudsman Bill is perhaps the first step on a very long road. The important thing is to get this Bill implemented because it is a serious attempt at creating a climate of opinion leading to the widest possible debate on the question of protecting the liberties and human rights of people that are gradually being threatened more and more every day of the week. I would be thinking in terms of an interventionist policy that might give real meaning to the rights and freedoms of people but that is a matter for another type of debate and I hope to get an opportunity at some time to deal with it.

Again, it may be argued that we have the European Convention of Human Rights and that therefore, it would be too ambitious to look forward to the day when we might have a charter of human rights developing from the office of ombudsman.

It is quite true, of course, that citizens can go to the European Court to get redress. This usually happens before we have had any opportunity to consider the matter to its fullest possible extent. Not a great deal of investigation goes on before we resort to the European Court. We should in fact try to do something in this direction so that we will get an opportunity for proper investigation and that any thing we have to argue about can in fact be done in our own city rather than dragging it out to the Continent. Whilst it is not a matter for the ombudsman I feel that we will get sufficient evidence coming before us from time to time from the ombudsman to indicate that there is growing concern about threats to liberties and the intimidation and harassment of people. I feel that it would be silly not to start thinking that this because it will gather momentum. It will grow. We should not wait until we are put under pressure from organised pressure groups. The Members of this House have an obligation to look forward. I hope that the evidence that will be provided by the ombudsman from time to time will be another step on the very long road and that we will in fact get to the point where there is sufficient evidence to show that, the idea of a charter of human rights is not that far off the mark.

This is very touchy but it has to be said because many of our problems stem from the fact that the civil service has a very great deal of power. Because of that, and the influence they have on ministerial positions and so on, a lot of the harassment and the intimidation and the difficulties that people undergo may in fact find their source at civil service level. It is important that I pre-empt what I want to say in that way. I am not making any direct accusations nor am I seeking the shelter of the House to do so. The power of the civil service is a worrying thing as it can, in fact, circumscribe ministerial freedom of action and as a consequence have an effect on many of our citizens who have no redress to deal with a situation like this. I feel it is a serious consideration with regard to the question of searching out the causes of the denial of human rights and freedom.

The situation has not been helped by our entry into the EEC because the Minister now has less time for supervision and more and more is falling on the civil servants, more reliance on permanent secretaries and so on. Our entry into the EEC has thrown more of that on the civil servants because of the Ministers' concern with events in Europe and the lack of the fullest possible opportunities to supervise them.

In addition to that, the civil service make contacts with their counterparts in Europe. This is a very formidable source. I see it as being a situation in which ministerial freedom of action is further circumscribed. It is part of the system but it may be one of the areas where we could find many of the difficulties that are created in the question of human rights. General grievances will fall within the ambit of the ombudsman and some which will not can trace their sources to some action that is taken by the civil service.

I made it clear that I was not making any accusations. I am stating what I believe to be the situation and I am open to correction. There is too much in this type of argument, too much depth in it for me to pursue it any further. It was necessary to make the point. I do not think this is the opportune time to pursue it any further. I am saying it in the context that the Minister may have the desire, the ability and so on but because he can be circumscribed there is the possibility that even in relation to the Fianna Fáil manifesto in certain areas the Minister could come under the influence of very experienced advisers and not give effect to some of the contents of the manifesto. That is not making an excuse for the Fianna Fáil Party as a whole. It is a possibility. We act on the assumption that ministerial advisers will always be impartial, honest and in whom people have confidence. There is a doubt in my mind. Because of the doubts I expressed I believe that it can be the source of a lot of irritation, harassment and grievances that manifest themselves to the ordinary citizen. Some of them will fall within the ambit of the ombudsman.

We have to get to the question of cause and effect. The Ombudsman Bill is a wonderful development. It is certainly not all that is desired but it is a very very important step and a great innovation. I welcome the Bill and look forward to the day when we will have the evidence to open it out into a fuller debate on the whole question of human rights and freedom.

Having read this Bill several times, studied it carefully and read some of the discussions on it in the other House I am satisfied that it is a worth-while document. I fully support it. It is an interesting example of how easy we can allow ourselves to be misled. Prior to reading this Bill and getting down to what it is all about I was asked on a couple of occasions what I thought of this ombudsman business and would it be effective. The reaction I gave, arising out of what I had casually read here and there about it, was, "Oh, I do not know. Some people think that it is the creation of a new body who will not have any power or any effect. It simply boils down to a bit of window dressing to quieten down the public". Having studied it I have come to the conclusion that it is a very worth-while Bill. Most of us who have any experience with administration know there is not any panacea for solving all the problems of modern life. I believe that the ombudsman will have an effective role, acting between the public and the State Departments. This role will constitute an essential part of the means of coping with the increasing complexity of the bureaucratic side of the State with the increasing level of depersonalisation that arises—a sort of numbers game—he will be able to keep the public in touch with the problems that arise and help to make the machinery of State work more smoothly.

Under section 4 the ombudsman will be completely independent in the performance of his functions. If one turns from section 4 to the First Schedule one finds that he will have access to all Departments of State, apart from other bodies. This makes the creation of this office a worth-while one. The ombudsman will be in a position where he can use his own discretion. Bearing in mind how impossible it is in the bureaucratic system for all State Departments to work perfectly because of the many rules, regulations and restrictions that are imposed on an administrative system and bearing in mind also the principle of accountability, of the responsibility of civil servants to protect the public interest and the public's money, the function of the ombudsman will be a most useful one. The civil service, in many areas, have to defend the public interest and deal with very many demands for assistance, grants and expenditures of different kinds. His role tends, on occasions, to be over-defensive. We should never forget that our civil service have a wonderful record of defending the public interest against fraudulent efforts to extract moneys from the State.

Reference has been made to the underprivileged and to those who consider that they are intimidated. I think that is valid. There are in our community many people who feel that they cannot get rights to which they think they are entitled. There is a wide area here of misunderstanding and of disbelief. There are those in the self-employed area, for instance, who are frequently afraid to look for assistance because of the fear of indignity. Mention has been made of the human rights aspect which, though relevant, is a much broader subject. The first impression I had, not having studied the Bill itself, was that this legislation was going to be cosmetic but that is not the case.

It is important to stress that because we know that debates in this House get even less publicity than debates in the other House. The impression conveyed to a number of people was that this Bill was not going to be an effective instrument. It is, therefore, necessary to assure the public that this Bill will be a useful instrument, that it will be the duty of the ombudsman to ensure that everybody is equal and has the right to fair and equitable treatment, irrespective of his position or status.

It is very important that the public should have some understanding of the work that went into producing this Bill. First, there was the advantage of examining what has been tried out in other countries and the improvements that are included as a result of learning from any possible defects in the use of an ombudsman in other countries. The all-party committee who studied this are to be congratulated and the Minister and also the draftsman are to be complimented on the Bill as it now stands.

The existence of an ombudsman in itself will help to remove misconceptions and to demonstrate that the Departments of State are there to serve the public. He will help to separate the real from the imaginary. Many people have grievances which are frequently genuine. Others express grievances which are simply an expression of grievance for its own sake, frequently where people are trying to make up for their own shortcomings.

I have referred to this Bill as being an effective instrument. The ombudsman will have significant powers. These are detailed under section 4. One of the provisions that will make this a useful office is that, in comparison with other countries, the public will have direct access to the ombudsman. Even if people are shy or timid or are reluctant to make complaints he will have the right to investigate anyway on foot of reports. He can be useful in the sense that he can in his own right follow up a report of any kind and establish whether it is valid. That is quite important in a country like Ireland where we have such a fertile imagination. We follow the sort of folklore—Dúirt bean liom ga ndúirt bean leí. As often as not, it is not true. The ombudsman can have a major influence on the functioning of the State in the sense that he has a right to report directly to the Oireachtas. This, in itself, can stimulate improvement even if he does not exercise the right. It will be rather like a deterrent which, if in existence will probably not be heeded but which will be sought if it is not available. That power in itself should help to motivate people and to get our machinery working more smoothly. It is far better to motivate rather than to rely on regulations, penalties or laws.

The ombudsman will have the right to examine any person within the areas set out in the Schedule, paragraph 4, and the examination will be in private. Also under the Schedule, the person complained of will have a right to comment, and so on. The fact that the ombudsman's appointment will not be a normal Government appointment—he will be appointed by the President after the parties have agreed to a single nominee who will have been approved by the Dáil—will help to make the office a neutral instrument. Outside the Judiciary, the only person who is in a position of this authority is the Comptroller and Auditor General whose office is regarded as the most powerful instrument in the State at present.

Having read section 9 a couple of times I have come to the conclusion that it is necessary—it deals with the imposition of secrecy. After all, it is in the interests of all of us and the State that areas which may be regarded as being in the classified section should be covered in the Act. I welcome something new in public appointments, and the fact that the ombudsman's term of office will be for six years, subject to reappointment, will help to ensure continued diligence on his part in doing his work, which will be essential in the public interest.

Having welcomed the legislation, I should say in relation to the Second Schedule that the work being done by the Oireachtas Joint Committee on State-Sponsored Bodies is very useful, but it seems to me there are in this Schedule a number of organisations, semi-State bodies, which would need some attention by the ombudsman. I am not suggesting that any of these bodies should have the immediate attention of the ombudsman—for example, I welcome the Minister's assurance that the local authorities and the Department of Social Welfare, which are major areas employing large numbers of public servants, will be included in about three months—but where involvement between semi-State bodies and the public is concerned it will be agreed that, outside the Departments of State, semi-State bodies such as CIE, the ESB and so on, including RTE, have a very close involvement with the public about whom there are myriads of complaints, some of which may be valid and some of which may be unreasonable. It is an area about which we should be thinking in the future in relation to the functions of the ombudsman. I am thinking of the possible inclusion of such bodies in the Second Schedule at a later stage.

I particularly welcome the refreshing expression by the Minister in his opening statement yesterday to the effect that there is no certain way of ensuring that wrong or unfair decisions are never taken by public officials. It is refreshing to hear any Minister say that.

I also welcome the Bill. The openness and readiness of the Minister of State in the other House to consider constructive suggestions by Deputies was welcome also. In line with a practice of other countries, we are establishing an office which might be described as a public guardian or intermediary. At this point I should like to say that I am unhappy with the word "ombudsman". In speeches and in the Bill itself, I do not like the fact that the male term is used all the time. If ever there was a case for a reversal of that process it is in relation to the appointment of somebody to an office of this kind, which I propose to refer to as "public guardian/ombudsman". It does not seem to me there is any reason why we have to import this terminology into our legislation. It is a word which fell strangely on the ear at the beginning, having its origins in the Scandianavian languages. It is a jolly word, like a womble, and because it was coined by the countries which first set up such an office, everybody fell happily into its use. I say all this in the full knowledge that it will be considered that because this has been said by a woman it is a triviality. Whether it is or not, I intend to make the point clearly that this is an unhappy word, not a good word. I should have liked to have seen another word used, and goodness knows the English language is full of suitable words, and so is the Irish language. Apparently a suitable word could not be found even in the latter.

One aspect of this matter which strikes me as being interesting is the relationship of this office to the work of Dáil Deputies and Senators who work in constituencies. They do a lot of the work which it seems to me this new office is designed to take off their shoulders. I find it very interesting the extent to which Deputies and Senators will look forward to this work being taken off their shoulders. We have an extraordinary system here through which public representatives for the most part are in effect private representatives. The amount of input going into legislation from Deputies and Senators on both sides is not often up to the standard which might be expected.

All these people are doing the kind of work which we would hope an ombudsperson, public guardian, public intermediary or whatever you want to call it, will do. We hope that they will get rid of that work and will be able to turn their minds to the national questions of legislation and to debating legislation. That would require a whole new parliamentary system including a very good committee system, which we have not got. The creation of this office just might be one step on the way to a broad reform of parliamentary procedure in general, which is considered by most serious commentators to be long overdue but which is fiercely resisted.

I know that the politicians do enormously good work for their constituents and that many politicians hope that the constituents will think that only they could do it. Others are more honest, and make it quit clear that they cannot get special things. In welcoming the creation of this office, I hope that it will lead to more rationalisation of the activities of people who are elected to be watchdogs over the legislation going onto the law books.

We should have a widespread and very good system of citizens advice bureaux in which the ordinary citizen would have enormous confidence, which would be well staffed and which would take the kind of triviality and everyday humdrum letter writing away from the public representatives. If we had this new office of public guardian, plus a very widespread and sophisticated system of citizens advice bureaux, we could begin to have a really good look at our parliamentary system and we might not have four months of a summer recess and we might sit more than three days a week. It might begin to look to the public as if they were getting their money's worth.

The method of appointment of this new officer, this new person upon whom so much will depend, worries me. I understand fully that to advertise for such a person in the public press may not be the best way of getting such a person because the best kind of people are not necessarily the kind of people who will write letters of application looking for a job. I hope that the fullest possible investigation will be done in order to find the very best person. I know that it will require a resolution of the Dáil and Seanad to approve a recommendation of the Government. I also am aware that the Taoiseach has demonstrated some long overdue interest in making sure that the female sector is not excluded as heretofore in the search to fill such appointments. I would draw the Minister's attention to the existence of the National Women's Talent Bank and to the existence of very many responsible voluntary groups working in both the women's area and in the whole area of social reform, who must be considered in filling this appointment. That is extremely important and it has been an area almost totally neglected up to now, despite the best efforts of women's organisations to bing that kind of thing to the attention of successive Governments.

I share the unease of very many speakers, both in this House and in the other House, about the very long list of exclusions of areas, Departments and bodies which cannot come under the investigation of this public guardian. I am aware that the creation of this office is a new departure. We all welcome this tentative step into a rather strange area. However, the list of exclusions is so enormous as to make one feel that the first years of office of this new person will be in fact a very harmless kind of introduction. But I accept that the Minister speaks in good faith when he says that it will be the intention to review the exclusions and to see which other areas can be brought into the area for investigation.

We are proceeding with excessive caution and I am not really surprised. One does not expect revolutionary actions overnight, but we could have expected more from this Bill. I hope that in a year's time we will have the pleasure of seeing the Minister bring a whole lot of new areas into this ombudsman's office, so that the public will feel that there is a genuine desire for openness in the way we are governed, that there is nothing to hide and that where errors or injustices occur the legislators are genuinely concerned that the public are being treated with the utmost justice.

One other area that worries me relates to adoption. Obviously one does not go into detail on a Second Stage speech, but I just wanted to mention, for example, the area of the Adoption Board. I do not understand why that should be excluded from the Bill. I know that adoption is a delicate area but it is an area in which investigation might well be very necessary and very good. There have been a great many problems in the past in this whole area of adoption and I would be very happy to see it brought into the area of the ombudsman's office very quickly. There are many other areas I would like to see included but I just mentioned that one as I do not understand why that should be excluded.

If the office, the new public guardian, is investigating basically the actions of the civil service, which is obviously what he will be mostly doing, it causes me a slight worry that his staff would all be civil servants. There is a contradiction somewhere there. I have said before in this House that I would like to see more interaction and exchange between the private and the public sector. This is a particular case where the staff of this office should be a mixture of people, seconded perhaps for some time, experts in the different fields mixed with, if necessary, an area of the civil service. I do not see how the independence of the office, which we are all so determined to ensure can possibly be encouraged if the person appointed to this office does not have the comfort of knowing that his staff have total freedom of action. Having made those few remarks, I welcome the principle of this Bill. It is a step in the right directon but I am unhappy with the degree of tentativeness of the step and with the immediate acceptance of the sexist terminology. However, I believe that the office itself will be a very good addition to Irish public life and I wish it, and the Government that set it up, more courage in widening its terms of reference.

In speaking to this Bill I confess to feeling a little thwarted by the Minister's speech recommending it to the Seanad. This is for the reason, as far as I can see, that no improvement or elucidation of the contents or justification need be attempted. Two reasons in particular lead to this conclusion. First, the speech is especially concise as is the Bill and the essential value is that the ombudsman or woman functions without exhibiting any emotional interpretation. Secondly, this effect derives, it may be seen, from the fact that the drafting of the Bill has been almost entirely a legal interpretation of what an all-party committee recommended on this wide-ranging and very important human subject. The fact that these were the characteristics of the Minister's form of recommendation, therefore, makes it unnecessary—indeed merely complicates the issue—for me to do other than propose that in all main aspects the Bill is sound, both in its contents and exclusions. Taking note of the latter, it is the Government's stated purpose to bring local authorities and health boards within the ombudsman's range of inquiries within three months of his appointment. I do not mind whether it is called ombudsman or ombudswoman. I am chairman, although very much a woman, of several organisations.

Ombudsperson.

I go against ombudsperson. I would be very happy to be an ombudsman myself.

I welcome the Bill and believe it will do much to get rid of beliefs people have that they are being victimised. Some of these victimisations are purely imaginary but there may be others where there is good ground for complaint. The appointment of an ombudsman will do a lot to give society greater belief and confidence in administration. If we take together the appointment of a director of public prosecutions and the appointment of an ombudsman, it will be seen by the public in general that political influence by certain people will not be used to the advantage of some people and against giving fair play to others. For that reason, I welcome the Bill. It will give people an opportunity, if they have grievances, of having them aired and examined.

Perhaps the number of genuine grievances and complaints are not as great as one might imagine. On investigation a number of them are usually found to be without any sound basis. That in itself will do good in so far as it will generate more and more confidence in the administration. If the appointment of an ombudsman goes some distance towards ensuring people have confidence in the administration, and know that the means are there of ensuring that they get a fair deal, then one will have a healthier State and a more genuine belief in democracy. That is necessary in this day and age when democracy comes under fire from so many quarters.

When this office is in operation for some time, grants, payments, pensions and so on will flow more regularly to applicants and uncalled for delays will be ruled out. People in time will come to see that when a statute of the Oireachtas is passed giving rights to certain people, these right will automatically flow and it will not be the duty of Deputies or Senators to make representations on behalf of people to make sure that they get their rights. If we examine this aspect objectively for a few minutes we will see that a great part of public representatives' time is spent writing letters to Departments to get grants and payments for people to which they are entitled. Many people believe that these grants would not be paid or would not be paid in time if the TD, or the Senator to a lesser degree, does not write on their behalf.

If the appointment of an ombudsman can get rid of that notion it will be good for the country in a number of ways. It will give people a genuine trust in the administration and enable the elected representative to spend more of his time studying legislation, doing the research work that is necessary if he is to make a worth-while contribution to the measures before the House at any one time and so on. If a visitor goes into the Dáil chamber or into this chamber and notes the comparatively small number of people who are present at any one time he or she might be excused for thinking that Deputies and Senators have very little interest in the legislation that is going through. The less well-informed visitors might think that we were doing nothing. The facts are that a number of people are in the Library doing some research work into Bills that are coming up, but the vast majority are in their rooms, on the phone to Departments, writing letters to their constituents pointing out to them that they have made representations to the Department to ensure that they get the grant they are entitled to. I am convinced that too much time of the Members of the Oireachtas is spent at that work and because that is so they are not giving nearly enough time to studying Bills that are introduced in the House during the recess which is necessary to make a good contribution, to suggest amendments to the Minister and so on. That is the principal reason why people are sent to the Houses of the Oireachtas, not to do the work of a clerk writing letters. It is a common thing for Deputies to send out as many as 300 to 350 or perhaps 400 letters a week. These letters are mainly replies from Departments to representations made by a Deputy to the Secretary of a Department with regard to some grant or pension or allowance to which the citizen is legally entitled and which he should get in the quickest possible time without any Deputy or Senator having to make representations for him or her. The appointment of an ombudsman will not change the situation overnight but by degrees it will be changed. People will know that legal rights will be theirs without the interference or influence of a Deputy or Senator or for that matter, a county councillor.

I join with those who expressed surprise at the long list of bodies and boards not subject to investigation, I take the point made by the Minister that this was largely, perhaps entirely, done on the recommendation of an all-party committee and I note with satisfaction that the Minister says that, after a short period, local authorities will come under the aegis of the ombudsman. When one looks at this very very long list of bodies not subject to investigation one's enthusiasm for the Bill diminishes somewhat, because a very large number of people are dealing with these various bodies—the health boards, the old age pension committees, CIE, An Bord Pleanála and others. I do not suggest that these boards and bodies are not doing their duty as efficiently as they possibly can but when the Bill becomes generally known, people will ask why the Department of Industry, Commerce and Tourism or the Department of Finance are subject to the scrutiny of an ombudsman and that the county council or CIE or the health boards are not. There will be a tendency to say there is some cover up. I accept without reservations the Minister's statement that the Government have no vested interest in having any of these exempt, but the inclusion of boards, councils and committees in the ambit of the ombudsman as soon as possible will do more to generate public confidence.

I hope the activities of the ombudsman will put an end to a practice which is apparently on the increase, that a Deputy in an opposition party makes representations to a Government Department with regard to a grant and gets a reply in two or three weeks' time telling him that the application cannot be traced and asking for further particulars. At the same time, a Deputy in the constituency but a member of a governing party sends a letter to the applicant who never approached him for the grant, telling him it was on its way. I have a letter from a Deputy which proves that that happened.

I know another case where a Fine Gael Senator made representations with regard to a housing grant and, after some time, the applicant got a letter from a member of the Government party, who was not approached at any time, telling him that the grant was on its way. The Senator who made the application got no word about it until long after the grant was paid. Abuses of that kind, shabby tricks like that, are played not by many Deputies or Ministers but some small number who use dodges like this to establish their own popularity and to give an impression of great power in the constituency. If unchecked it would lend itself to developing a single party government and strikes at the very roots of democracy. I hope, when the ombudsman is appointed, that one of his first undertakings will be to see to it that things of that kind are not allowed to happen. If the appointment of the ombudsman does nothing else but cut that out the appointment will be well justified.

I am wholeheartedly in favour of the principle in the Bill. I am somewhat disappointed that the scope is not broadened to include a number of boards, committees and so on but I am relieved to a certain degree that the Minister has assured the House that, after a short time, the powers of the ombudsman will extend to others listed as not being subject to investigation under the Second Schedule. In general, I welcome the Bill. I believe that it will have an effect for good in the operation of democracy and in the trust and dependence that people have in elected representatives and in the civil service.

I should like to add my voice to those of Senators who praised the Bill. The Bill is a very wide one and it would take a substantial debate to ensure that views on all its aspects were well aired. The Minister said most investigations made by the ombudsman will originate as complaints made by individuals. It is important to note that complaints can be made straight to the ombudsman by the interested party. There will be no need to go through an intermediary such as a Member of either House of the Oireachtas. It will be open to the ombudsman to initiate an investigation, for example, as a result of a newspaper report. He will be in a position to look into any alleged action by a Government Department.

The Minister said there was criticism of the fact that local authorities and health boards are not included in the Bill and he gave an undertaking that, within a reasonable period after the appointment of the ombudsman, local authorities and health boards will be included. When one takes this statement and relates it to the development in Britain and elsewhere in the establishment of an ombudsman one can see how rapid the progress here will be in relation to Britain. They introduced their parliamentary commissioner in 1967 but it was not until 1973 that they took it upon themselves to increase the scope, thereby bringing into the net the area of health.

I call on the Minister to ensure that the Bill is operated with simplicity so that ordinary individuals will fully understand it. The type of projection by newspaper reports or statements should be understood by the ordinary man in the street. If there is confusion in relation to the rights of the individual in preparing or presenting his case, a situation may develop whereby we will not get the best out of the Bill. It may well happen that if there is confusion or complication in the presentation of cases people will have to go back to public representatives to prepare the case for presentation to the ombudsman. The question of simplifying the procedure so that it is understood by the man in the street is very important.

Another important aspect is that we should have a speedy investigation and an early decision. In too many cases we have read with horror that when dealing with public Departments, particularly in relation to conditions and pay, sometimes a period of three or four years may elapse before action is taken on behalf of the unfortunate people who are being victimised.

I hope early decisions will be the keynote of the investigations and that the investigations will be swift and comprehensive. Normally the ordinary man in the street will be availing of the provisions of the Bill, because the lawyer will know how to compile and present a case. The person who does not wish to impose himself on a public representative or a lawyer to prepare his case is the person to whom the Minister should pay attention.

If we look at the development of the position in Britain we see that a complaint must be signed and rendered not later than one year after the incident occurs. I do not know whether there is a period specified here, or how far back one can go in relation to a complaint. Going back with complaints over a period of years will adversely affect the situation in relation to early decisions. I should like to quote from Public Administration to give an indication of how the mind of the ombudsman in Britain works. He has to say to himself:

‘Where is the unjustice?' In one case for instance, I rejected for investigation a complaint about a decision by the Ministry of Agriculture to gas badgers in the area around the complainant's home. The reason for my rejection was that I could not see how the killing of the wild badgers had caused that complainant personal injustice. I added that a complaint that careless gassing has caused harm to farm animals or human beings would be suitable for investigation if made by the owner of the animals or by the persons involved.

It depends on the manner of presentation. A man may have a case but present it with the wrong emphasis. The ombudsman, in examining the matter for investigation, may feel that the emphasis is in the wrong place. The complaint would then fall. I hope common sense prevails in the examination and acceptance of complaints. The broad base of the complaint rather than a technical aspect which would eliminate the examination of the report should be considered.

In relation to the examination of complaints, will a complaint be accepted from a community or a community council? We have community councils that are operating in a very effective way processing many complaints in the same manner as the ombudsman will. They carry out community surveys in relation to problems. Will the ombudsman be in a position to accept a complaint from a community council? Will he examine the problem of the community which might have a complaint against an authority? I attended a meeting of the Community Development Council of Lower Crumlin last night. I saw that group in action in an effective way carrying out must of the work that no doubt will in due course be carried out by the ombudsman. I should like to know if a community complaint will be investigated as distinct from an individual complaint?

In relation to the decisions of the ombudsman, I should like the Minister to indicate if there is any appeal against his decision if one feels he has been harmed with regard to promotional opportunities, particularly in the civil service—this Bill relates to examinations within the civil service. Will that person have the right of appeal? An official can be harmed in his reputation and promotional opportunities and I should like to know if he will have a right of appeal against a decision of the ombudsman. Can the official, the subject of an investigation, have his case presented to a court for their decision if he feels an injustice has been done to him? The book, The Ombudsman, dealing with the situation in Britain stated that it was felt that civil servants would not be able to do their work properly with the threat of an outside investigation hanging over them; that they would be frightened of making decisions. Will this be on the minds of civil servants here? Will they become hesitant in making decisions through fear of an ombudsman's investigation? Apparently, there was a very real fear at one stage in Britain and elsewhere that it would slow down rather than expedite the problems being investigated. According to that book the same fears were expressed in Denmark when the appointment of the parliamentary commissioner was being discussed. The outcome there was that it brought a new relationship in confidence between the civil service and the members of the public. The parliamentary commissioner assisted the civil servants rather than impeded them. The degree of acceptance of the situation was rapid. But in some countries where the development took place a very real fear existed. In some cases those fears were justified and slowed down the development. Could the Minister indicate what measures have been taken to assure civil servants that they need not be afraid of this development and to ensure that any such fears will not slow down the whole process?

The question of the volume of complaints has been mentioned. When one sees the list of public service Departments that can be examined, one can be assured that there will be a very substantial volume of complaints within a short period, particularly if we are to believe that injustices are being done and if we are to judge by the number of parliamentary questions or motions on the adjournment. When an ombudsman was introduced in other countries, over a trial period of three or six months in some cases and three years in other cases complaints were received only from Members of Parliament. Here we have an open-ended situation and I am sure that in the early stages the volume of complaints will be substantial and may well taper off at the end of a period. I feel possibly that in this country there will be a larger volume of complaints per head of the population than elsewhere.

In the first ten years of operation in Britain 8,500 complaints were through their MPs; 5,000 complaints were not accepted for investigation—this is after processing through MPs—and only 3,500 were investigated. In the same ten year period there were 8,000 complaints direct from the public. We will have a situation where there will be a flow of complaints from various organisations. There are very many organisations here who would be only too happy to try to clog up the machinery designed for the common good and to ensure that complaints are effectively dealt with. I have no doubt that in the coming months after the introduction of the Bill many of these suspect organisations will be setting their minds to overloading the situation. Therefore, the assessment of complaints for investigation is important, the identification of the problem, so that the average man who has a complaint will have it investigated. There is no doubt that there will be groups of, perhaps, well-meaning people in the area of law who will be prompting other groups to have certain complaints processed. Such complaints will have this type of back up. But the complaint of the average individual is the important complaint, where people want to have their problems investigated in their own way. In the early stages these suspect organisations will be on the bandwagon.

There will also be certain groups who will have legal advice and who will endeavour to have certain hobby horses examined with rapidity because of the backing they have outside the arena of the ombudsman. No doubt this will happen. I would hope that the ombudsman will pay no attention to promptings from Members of either House of the Oireachtas to expedite any particular aspect, because I believe that once the ombudsman is appointed he should be free to make decisions without the type of pressures that we sometimes see and hear in the Houses of the Oireachtas. I am sure that all the Members here have a complete understanding of the real problems of the community and the real problems of the individuals. Many people do not wish to approach public representatives because they feel that this might result in their business being known to others and they are reluctant to seek legal advice because of the cost factor. Most of the people pursuing complaints will not be concerned with damages but mainly with the rectification of a wrong.

In relation to the exclusions and additions, like other Members I think that in the first instance it is important that the public Departments should be subjected to scrutiny, and indeed they are by virtue of Part 1 of this Bill. We can all pick out aspects of the exclusions and say that they are the most important and should be included. However, I would hope that at an early stage we would have, as they have in other countries, an ombudsman for the Defence Forces and the security forces who are in a peculiar position in many respects particularly in relation to problems that affect them. This is an area that the Minister could look at and comment upon at some stage in the future. I know that the development in West Germany and in other countries where they have military ombudsmen is all important and has tended to generate the type of feeling that is desirable among people who are confined in voicing their grievances, some of them very real grievances.

It strikes me as peculiar too that a trade unionist in a particular Department can under this Bill have his case investigated by the ombudsman and get a decision from the ombudsman, but at the same time that trade unionist can through unofficial action tie up a Department and so do an injustice to a very wide range of people. I would hope that as time progresses we can examine in greater detail many of the problems that really affect the life of the community. In many cases there are delays because of unofficial trade union action, action which is not countenanced by either ICTU or the unions. These same people who can have their grievances examined can at the same time hold both the Department, and in many cases the State, up to ransom and affect essential services of the State. The area of essential services is an area that must be brought within the ambit of the ombudsman at an early stage, because far too often the essential services have been disrupted by unofficial strikes of one type or another. It is a real and positive area where an immense amount of good could be done by an examination of individual grievances by the ombudsman. I will not go into the wide range of essential services that have been disrupted in the past in a very positive way by unofficial action of one type or another. I hope that, as time goes on, this aspect will be fully and effectively covered so that the community cannot be held to ransom as they have been and that life itself cannot be put at risk by the actions of individuals. I have always held that the protection of essential services is very important. The payments of grants, and other matters of that nature are minor in relation to the protection of essential services. I as an individual, and each person affected, would like to have an opportunity to have these cases examined with the positive end of finding some solution to problems created by subversive groups or by suspect organisations that are in existence here. At the moment there are many suspect organisations moving along positive lines of disruption. While public services come under scrutiny I hope, too, that the time will come when organisations will come under scrutiny when a person wishes to lodge a complaint. I know that day is far distant. Nevertheless in the area of essential services I would ask the Minister to direct his Department's attention to this, to see if there is any way in which the average man who suffers most as a result of indiscriminate action can have his case investigated.

I welcome the Bill although it has been too long in coming to us. Like other Senators I feel it is unnecessarily restrictive in some of its provisions. It puts some limits on the powers of the ombudsman which do not appear to be justified. I welcome the fact that it appears that some of these restrictions can be removed by an order made by the Government and the order would then be laid before the Oireachtas. I will be dealing with a number of these restrictions in the hope that the Government will honour the commitment given, and repeated in this House by the Minister of State, to extend the scope of the Act when there has been further time to consider it, and in the light of experience.

I note that the Minister of State has repeated in this House the important commitment by the Government to extend the Bill to cover local authorities and health boards. Sometimes when a Minister makes a comment in the House, or says the Government will be examining the position and will certainly do something if necessary, there is a certain doubt about this commitment. Certainly is not binding. It is just a statement made in the House. The fact that the Minister of State has twice repeated it, and had given the assurance to the other House, is definite and, in that sense, is a commitment that will be fulfilled. Indeed, the Minister has set a limit on it—within three months of the date of the appointment of the ombudsman.

I should like to ask the Minister of State if he would specify precisely which bodies set out in the Second Schedule will be covered by this order? Does it include the county committees of agriculture, the vocational education committees, the old age pension committees and sub-committees, and the harbour authorities? I should like clarification of that.

Before going on to deal with some of the other aspects and restrictions in the Bill which I should like to see changed or enlarged, I should like to begin by welcoming in principle the establishment of the office of an ombudsman and to affirm the important value this office and this person will have in Irish society. I support the view expressed by Senator Hussey that the name is ill-chosen and that there has been a tendency in the Minister's speech and in contributions by other Senators to describe both the office and the person holding it in a sexist way. I do not think this was intended, but some of us are more sensitive to these matters than others.

It is important, at a time of the acceptance of the principle of equality and at a time when it is evident that the State must very positively compensate for discrimination and narrowness in the past, that every effort is made. Speech is important in these areas, and descriptions and titles of offices are important in changing attitudes and behaviour in our society. Like Senator Hussey I would have preferred if the office had a different name and I would welcome a more concerted effort to make it clear that the holder of the office may be either male or female and that the staff of the office similarily may be either male or female.

The value of the office itself in our society was recognised by other comparable societies much sooner than we have done so. It has taken us until 1980 to get a Bill actually discussed and debated in both Houses. This is the second Bill put forward this year and, as the Minister of State said, it is the result of an all-party committee which deliberated on the proposal to establish an ombudsman from 1976 to May 1977 when it reported. Other countries, notably the Scandinavian countries, New Zealand, the United Kingdom and, separately, Northern Ireland, have realised that with the expansion in the role of Government, in the Government agencies, in the functions of Government, they impinge more and more on the lives of citizens and affect every aspect of the life of a citizen from birth to death. This expansion in the role of Government has necessarily been implemented by an expansion in the function of administration at Government level, at local government level, and in agencies such as health boards, vocational committees, committees of agriculture, and so on.

Inevitably in any society when there is this very substantial expansion of the role and functions of the Government, there will be some abuse. There will be some maladministration and there will be some oppression of the individual. It would be impossible to spend any time in public life in Ireland without being aware of individual instances of maladministration and of oppression of the individual in a way which did not appear to be warranted. Any Deputy, or Senator, or any councillor, as a normal part of the advice work in an area of contact with people, would receive complaints of this sort. Very often the complaints are aggravated by the knowledge that the person has no redress. This would be the case with a number of the complaints. The complaint is not justified perhaps, but it is part of the complaint that the person has no redress, has no one to put his or her case to, has a feeling of either isolation, as has been mentioned here, or of being intimidated by this cold, faceless bureaucracy. Maybe the bureaucracy has a face but that face does not appear to be one that the individual can complain either to or about to some other authority.

The absence of any redress or recourse has been bad for the texture and the morale of our society. Apart from knowing of individual complaints and grievances in the electoral area I represent in Dublin, I have had a particular insight into individual complaints and feelings of oppression and hardship around the country particularly as a direct consequence of having acted for Mrs. Airey in the case that she took to the Commission and Court of Human Rights in Strasbourg. That case was quite a long time in process. It received a certain amount of publicity during the various stages before the Commission and the court. In the last four or five years I have received each week a volume of letters, not always complaints, against maladministration by Government Departments or local authorities. Sometimes the complaint is, for example, against delays in the bringing of legal proceedings, against solicitors and other professional people and so on. Very often these letters are written with a great deal of fear and the person who brought himself or herself to write a letter obviously had to work up the courage to do so.

The most general comment I would make about the complaints from letters received is the feeling of utter frustration that our society does not cater for the individual who feels oppressed, that our society does not give reasonable redress. That is not to say that there are not, both direct and indirect, tribunals, local representatives, the media, or various other checks and balances. But when the individual feels that there has been unwarranted delay or inactivity, that he or she has been discriminated against on grounds that he or she either does not understand or does not accept, that there has been rudeness and insult to an individual who may be in considerable hardship or may have difficulty in expressing himself, or that sometimes there has been a degree of bullying of the individual—in all these cases there is not any redress for the person. In so far as the office of ombudsman and the existence of an independent statutory person to hear and investigate complaints will go a very considerable way to filling that obvious gap, the value of establishing it cannot be overestimated. Therefore, the most important immediate step to be taken when this Bill is passed is to ensure that the functions and the powers of the ombudsman, and indeed the whole purpose of establishing an ombudsman, will be very widely publicised.

In that connection I would like to refer to the Annual Report of the Northern Ireland Parliamentary Commissioner for Administration for 1979. This report was published on 1 July 1980. I have been fortunate for the last number of years to be in receipt of the annual reports of the two officers in Northern Ireland—the Commissioner for Complaints and the Parliamentary Commissioner for Administration set up under the two separate Acts—the Parliamentary Commissioner Act (Northern Ireland) 1969, and the Commissioner for Complaints Act (Northern Ireland), 1969. For the last six years the two offices have been held by the same person, Mr. Stephen McGonagle, who is now retiring. In the report he refers to the need, even after ten years of existence of these two offices, which more or less cover what is brought together in the proposed ombudsman here, for an explanatory leaflet, and appendixed to this report just published is the text of an explanatory leaflet. It sets out the functions of the Commissioner for Complaints and the functions of the Parliamentary Commissioner for Administration. It sets it out in very simple, clear language the powers they have to investigate, how they investigate, and the matters that are not subject to investigation.

Also contained in that explanatory leaflet is a definition of maladministration. It is essential to have a widely-distributed leaflet with a definition of maladministration. There is not any definition in the Act itself because of the approach to the functions of the ombudsman. I will deal with this in a few moments, because to the lay reader that setting out of the actions which the ombudsman can investigate could be quite deceptive. They could underestimate totally the scope of the actions, inactions and omissions which the ombudsman can investigate. It would be useful to have a leaflet which would give a lay definition of maladministration, of what the ombudsman would be dealing with. The description in this leaflet circulated in the Northern Ireland context is quite a useful one. It is on page 92 and is as follows:

Maladministration may be taken to cover administrative action (or inaction) based on or influenced by improper considerations or conduct. Arbitrariness, malice or bias, including discrimination, are examples of improper considerations. Neglect, unjustified delay, failure to observe relevant rules or procedures, failure to take relevant considerations into account, failure to establish or review procedures where there is a duty or obligation on a body to do so, are examples of improper conduct. The Commissioner may not question the merits of a discretionary decision unless maladministration has been found related to the taking of the decision or the procedures leading up to it.

It goes on to say what remedies are open when the Commissioner for Complaints or the Parliamentary Commissioner investigates and the time limits on complaints. An essential part of the leaflet is how to make a complaint, containing in it a rather simple form. This also is essential because, although it is a most important part of the structure of this Bill—and one which I very much welcome—that the ordinary individual affected can make the complaint, it is necessary to ensure that the individual is in a position to be helped to know how to make that complaint. One way of doing this is to have leaflets widely available with a simple form so that the complaint can be initiated and then the staff of the ombudsman's office can follow it up and get further details, if necessary, so that it can be properly investigated and processed.

That is one important aspect of the publicity that needs to be given to the office of ombudsman, and to the kind of job he will do and to ensure that people are aware of the relevance of the ombudsman to them.

There is another aspect of the publicity needed, and this is when the ombudsman is installed and trying to carry out his tasks. It is useful to learn from the experience of an official equivalent to the ombudsman, and again I refer to the Northern Ireland context. In a report drawn up by the first Complaints Commissioner established in Northern Ireland, Dr. John Benn wrote a personal assessment of his first three years in Northern Ireland as Commissioners for Complaints. It was published on the 18 January 1973 and formed part of A New Frontiers Public Lecture presented by Social Administration at the New University of Ulster. It is a very personal assessment of the job he had to do, the way in which he approached it and his problems and achievements during that time. At page 10 of this report he turns to the question of publicity and says as follows:

The question of the degree of publicity which should attend the activities of my office is one that is affected by many complex and often conflicting factors. I take the view that my powers need to be backed up no less than by the force of law, by the weight of public opinion. I have found, as have persons performing a similar function in other jurisdictions, that while it is important to have legal powers in reserve, these are likely in practice rarely to be used, and the most effective deterrent to discrimination and other forms of maladministration is the sanction of the public conscience, the promotion of a climate of opinion in which good practice is not regarded as an ideal but as a norm, and in which there is no question of discriminatory or arbitrary action. Of its nature this is not a dramatic development but a long, slow, and essentially cumulative process. I believe that my office can contribute in two ways: first, by encouraging among officials better standards of administrative practice and a sensitivity to the needs and aspirations of ordinary people, and secondly by reassuring the citizen that he is not defenceless or unsupported in his encounter with bureaucracy, and that his just complaints will be objectively investigated and may be redressed. These activities require the support of an informed public opinion.

He then refers to the fact that he makes reports and his reports are published and that that is an important aspect of it. But he goes on to extend that and says:

I therefore think that it would be useful if at the discretion of the Commissioner and with the consent of the complainant publicity could on occasion be given to the investigation of a complaint. My office needs to have publicity on occasion if only to bring it to the notice of the public. Apart from this it could, I think, help to strengthen the deterrent aspect of the office if it were known that complaints might in certain circumstances be investigated in public. What I have in mind in this connection is that the Commissioner could be given power, with the consent of the complainant, to hold a formal hearing in public with the press present if he so thought fit in any particular case and that, again with the consent of the complainant, the Commissioner might be given power to issue his report on a particular case to the news media.

Clearly the Commissioner of Complaints in Northern Ireland with the experience of three years in office was approaching this as a complex issue, but I think to have a provision, as is contained in this Bill, that the investigations by the ombudsman would not be public is perhaps over-cautious, lending too much weight to the possible undesirable side effects of publicity in certain cases. It would be desirable to give some discretion and to have, where appropriate and with the consent of the complainant, public investigations—public hearings of complaints from time to time. The point is well made that this would have a deterrent effect and would also have a useful publicising effect of the fact that when there were complaints they were investigated by an impartial officer who was not going to do a cover up job, who was not going to hide the nature of the complaint.

When it comes to the question of publicity, I do not think it is enough that the reports will be laid before both Houses. We are all too well aware that many reports which are laid before the Houses of the Oireachtas do not receive adequate publicity. Very few of them are debated either in the Dáil or the Seanad. They tend by their very nature to be rather dry and technical documents. They are official reports to the two Houses of the Oireachtas and they do not get a coverage which would reach the people who ought to know, and may need to know, what the functions of the ombudsman are.

Obviously, with an office of this nature a great deal will depend inevitably on the personality and commitment of the woman or man who first holds the office of ombudsman. A lot also will depend on the size of the staff that person will have at his disposal, on the kind of back-up and power through capacity that the ombudsman and his staff will have. This is becoming a very serious problem with the various posts we have created in the last few years. Not so long ago in this House—about last November—we debated the first report of the Employment Equality Agency. We saw that the agency is under-funded. We saw that it cannot carry out adequately its statutory functions. It is critical of not being able to fully discharge the very important functions it has in the area of securing the enforcement of equal pay and equality of opportunity for male and female workers, but primarily for women workers. We are also aware from recent publicity, that the director of consumer affairs is another public office that is under-funded. He is not able fully, properly or adequately to discharge his important functions and responsibilities. I do not think it would be difficult to add to that list.

Since we are, in this Bill, creating another very important and very valuable office—an office which will be to serve the ordinary citizen, as the Minister of State said—it is vital that we know when the Bill is going through the House what is intended to be the allocations for the office, the size of staff and what are the proposals. This is something which ought to be discussed on Committee Stage. Section 10 does not give any indication of what the proposed size will be. I will not be entirely happy if the Minister of State in response says that will all depend on what the ombudsman may feel, because the point I am trying to make is that the persons appointed do not have power. All they can do is use the organs of publicity or publish reports saying "we are under-funded". The responsibility for ensuring that they have adequate resources and funds and adequate staff rests with the Members of the Oireachtas. It is an essential aspect of understanding just how effective and how useful the ombudsman will be. We must have the detailed information from the Minister in his reply.

I would now like to deal with the provisions of the Bill in more detail. Section 4 relates to the functions of the ombudsman and I will make a general comment on the way those functions are set out. They do appear to be narrower than is the case. Section 4 begins by saying that the ombudsman shall be independent in the performance of his functions. It says, that subject to the schedule, he can carry out a preliminary examination of a matter if it appears to the ombudsman "that the action has or may have adversely affected a person...". that the action was or may have been taken without proper authority, taken on irrelevant grounds, the result of negligence or carelessness,...". The use of the word ‘action' could be construed more narrowly than it should be because in the definition section it is defined as including "decision, failure to act and omission". It is essential that we publish an explanatory leaflet making it clear, because very often a failure to act, or an omission is the basis of the maladministration, is the source of real complaint of the citizen. Reading the section as it stands it could give rise to confusion or to an unnecessarily narrow identification.

In another respect, it appears that the functions are very narrowly circumscribed because it does not appear that the ombudsman can receive a complaint from a civil servant. It appears that although other citizens are to be able to avail of the possibility of filing a complaint for maladministrations, a civil servant, if the complaint relates to his own terms and conditions or to his own position, cannot lay a complaint. I may be wrong in my interpretation as I read the exclusions but in section 5 (1) (c) of the Bill it is stated that the ombudsman shall not investigate any action taken by or on behalf of a person "relating to recruitment or appointment to any office or employment in a Department of State or by any other person specified in the First Schedule to this Act". Specified in the First Schedule are the Departments and staffs of the various Departments of State, relating to or affecting the terms and conditions of that person.

I would like if the Minister would clarify the point for me. May a civil servant complain to the ombudsman, in any circumstances, about being the victim of maladministration, or is a civil servant disqualified by the fact that he is a civil servant, from filing a complaint? Is that exclusion in section 5 (1) (c) and (d) confined to preventing a civil servant from complaining about his terms and conditions of employment? I would be grateful if the Minister would clarify that.

On the functions of the ombudsman, in section 4 (7) there is a provision that:

An examination or investigation by the Ombudsman shall not affect the validity of the action investigated or any power or duty of the person who took the action to take further action with respect to any matters the subject of the examination or investigation.

This provision is similar to the provision which applies in the Northern Ireland context. It has been referred to by the Commissioner for Complaints or the Parliamentary Commissioner for Administration, depending on which office is concerned, as sometimes leading to unnecessary difficulties in both investigating the complaint and seeking some resolution of it. If there is a complaint of maladministration where a licence was refused and the particular official against whom the complaint was laid pays no attention to the investigation and issues the licence to another person and there is only one licence in question, this could make it very difficult to undo the wrong if the complaint is upheld. I can see certain difficulties here. I think it would be going too far to say that in any case where the ombudsman had received a complaint and decided to investigate it, instantly all activity had to stop, the action had to be terminated or nothing could be done in relation to it. That would be going too far. This would appear to be an area where it would better that there be some discretion or, better, that there be some way in which the ombudsman could seek to ensure that while the investigation was taking place the action would not either continue or be terminated in such a way as to render the complaint useless and to make it impossible to remedy the particular defect.

There are one or two other points that are very much Committee Stage points that I would like to come back to. There is a point on which I seek clarification in relation to the conduct of investigations—this is under section 8. I have already referred to the fact that it is going too far to require that in all circumstances an investigation by the ombudsman would be conducted otherwise than in public, that there ought to be circumstances where there can be publicity because there is a value in having publicity in a particular case, where the complainant does not object to publicity. In subsection (4) of section 8 there is a provision stating that the ombudsman may determine whether any person may be represented by counsel, solicitor or otherwise in an investigation by him under this Bill. I would like to have some clarification of precisely what is intended there. If the ombudsman determines that a person may be represented is it intended, that civil legal aid will be provided for them, for example, and on what criteria would the ombudsman determine that in some cases legal representation would be afforded and in other cases it would not? I would like to have that section clarified.

I turn to the schedules which have already been commented on by a number of Senators as appearing to be much more restrictive than is warranted. The most serious criticism that could be made is the one of the exclusion of local authorities and health boards and that the Minister has undertaken will be amended by a Government order within three months of the appointment of the ombudsman. There are other exclusions.

One of them is a very serious exclusion and one which may undermine some public confidence in the office, as genuinely intending to enable citizens who feel aggrieved, who feel that there has been an act of maladministration of which they are the victims, and that is the exclusion of prisons from the scope of the Bill. This also is the paragraph in the Minister of State's opening speech with which I take very serious issue. He said: "The exclusion of the prisons is due to the serious problems their inclusion would cause". It may not be easy to include prisons, but that is not the reason to exclude them.

There is another sentence I also query very basically. It is as follows: "Prisoners already have adequate means of redress and their rights are adequately protected under the law and the Constitution." Is this information coming from prisoners? Who has provided this global and rather complacent statement? I suggest that the contrary is the case, to a degree that does not reflect well on us as a society. We do not ensure that prisoners have in all circumstances genuine access to adequate means of redress and that their rights are fully and adequately protected. If an ombudsman is to be at the service of the people, to be an outlet for a complaint against maladministration, all the more should the ombudsman be at the service of anybody who is incarcerated, who is deprived of his or her liberty, a person who is in prison or, indeed, in a mental institution or any other place where they are not in full control of their situation, where they depend totally on the way in which others administer the place in which they find themselves. It is essential that these be included.

In the final sentence of this brief paragraph, the Minister of State said in relation to prisoners: "There is also the likelihood that the facility would be abused". I do not accept that that is a good reason not to include prisons within the scope of the ombudsman and allow prisoners to complain. It is fair to say that this procedure will be abused. There will be vexatious complaints. The ombudsman, however, has the power to rule out complaints that are vexatious, unfounded, or unwarranted. Surely that is how we deal with unwarranted complaints.

I cannot accept any of the three grounds on which the Minister has excluded prisons—the first being because of the serious problems their inclusion would cause. It is much more important that we provide a legitimate outlet and expression of complaints of maladministration, whatever the difficulty, than that we use some unspecified difficulties as a reason for not doing so. I find it very hard to see what the unique difficulties are. If there are explanatory booklets, leaflets and forms available in prisons, there is no reason, from the point of view of the prisoner, why they would not have the possibility of making a complaint. They are in the prison, so the complaint can be investigated without much difficulty.

This procedure would not cut across the role of the visiting committee because the complaint of maladministration affecting them would come within the province of the ombudsman. Even if there was a certain duplication between the role of visiting committee and the possibility of access to the ombudsman, this could be a good thing. The visiting committees have not performed the role of an ombudsman in so far as prisons are concerned and do not purport to. Citizens who perhaps in some instances more than others, because they are trapped in their situation, would have a legitimate complaint to make, ought to be in a position to make it. I do not accept that they have adequate redress at the moment. Prisoners, in general, in Ireland would not accept that and they, after all, are in some respects the best judges of whether or not they have adequate redress for their rights. I do not accept that it is a legitimate objection that there might be some abuse. The system is already set up to cater for and weed out any abuse.

I would also like to see included complaints against the Garda. The general and broader issue of the need for independent investigation of complaints against the Garda has been the subject of considerable debate. In a number of other countries the ombudsmen have power to investigate complaints against the police. This would be good, both for the Garda and for the individuals complaining of maladministration. It would be well within the competence of an ombudsman to sort out complaints which should not properly come before the ombudsman, either because they should form the basis of a civil action or because they do not involve maladministration of the type set out in section 4.

The exclusion of the possibility of complaining against the Garda could suggest a reluctance to establish any independent investigation of the activities of the Garda, particularly because this has been a subject which has come up a number of times in recent years and there appears not to be a willingness to establish a separate independent complaints machinery. I would have thought that this was an opportunity to include the Garda within the general scope.

Finally, I cannot see either the logic or the sense of a number of other exclusions. I will take a few at random from the Second Schedule, persons not subject to investigation: the Dental Board, the Electricity Supply Board, the Pigs and Bacon Commission. Interesting enough, in the 1979 report of the Northern Ireland Parliamentary Commissioner for Administration, one of the complaints lodged was against the Pigs Marketing Board of Northern Ireland. Why are these boards—and I am not singling out the Pigs and Bacon Commission—excluded from the scope of the ombudsman? We have a very large number of State-sponsored bodies and agencies in this country. They represent a very important, wide sweep of activity which affects the citizen. It will be confusing for people that in some instances where they are the victims of maladministration, they have the possibility of investigation, and in other instances where there does not seem to be any logic to it, they will not have.

Knowing that the Government have power to enlarge the scope of the powers of the ombudsman, it would be desirable to look at the experience in other countries, look at the kind of complaints that ombudsmen and parliamentary commissioners have handled, and cast the general net as wide as possible. To do so will enhance the standing of the office of ombudsman and will prevent people from feeling that there is a discrimination built into the system, that there are only some kinds of maladministration against which one can complain. However, I would put that kind of extension on a different level from the inclusion of the prisons and the Garda. As a matter of fundamental principle these ought to be included in the scope. If it were feasible to do so, I would put down an amendment to that effect in this Bill. Given that the other House is no longer sitting, there is not much sense in attempting it at this stage.

This Bill is rightly criticised as being over-restrictive. It has a number of very positive features, the fact that the individual can complain directly, the flexibility in relation to the time limit which would normally be one year but can be waived or extended if the circumstances warrant it. On the whole the structure is a fairly good one. I would hope that either when the Minister is extending the scope to include local authorities and health boards that he may continue that and include other bodies at that stage, or that the scope will be kept under very constant review, that, as the ombudsman and his staff, or her staff, gain experience they will themselves be in a position to comment on and perhaps recommend an extension of their functions.

We are a democratic country and, as such, we go to great lengths to make our services as widely open to the public as we possibly can. All legislation goes through Dáil Eireann where there is an Opposition to question it, where the press is present to publicise it. Then it has to go through Seanad Eireann. It is debated here in a different form. It may not get as much publicity as the system should get to work properly. I am quite sure that if we take any decision here which is undemocratic then it will receive plenty of publicity. Finally it goes to the President who checks as to whether in his opinion it is constitutional before it becomes law. We take all those precautions for the public.

Therefore if this Bill is another means of giving confidence to the public that the administration of government is fair, that there is an independent person there to act on their behalf and investigate complaints, then I welcome it. It is quite clear that this Bill is limited completely to bad administration and only in the case of certain specified bodies. On reading the Bill I have tried to get an informal picture of how it will actually operate. I must say that at this moment I have not completed that picture and cannot see how its provisions will operate.

If I may make a few comments on the thoughts I have had in reading the Bill then perhaps later the Minister can comment on my comments. At first sight the Bill appears to take over work being done at present by public representatives. This is true. Therefore the ombudsman will need a fairly big department to deal with all such complaints. Certainly he could not possibly deal with them in public. The question is: is this actually the case, because subsection (1) (a) (iii) of section 5 says:

The person affected by the action has a right to appeal, reference or review to or before a person other than a Department of State or other person specified....

Therefore could the ombudsman turn around and say that at present a person not receiving, shall we say, justice under the system obtaining, who goes to the public representative who now takes up the matter on his behalf and comes back with it having had it investigated, already has a right of appeal there, a system of appeal, and that that should continue. Remember then we would have a continuation of the present system despite the fact of the ombudsman being there. Then again, say a person complains directly and the ombudsman decides, under section 4, that the complaint is trivial or vexatious. When the person who has complained gets back that report—and in their opinion it is certainly not trivial or vexatious—the obvious available redress appears to be to go to the public representative. Does the public representative then take up the present system owing to the refusal of the ombudsman to take it on those grounds? It appears to me that when a person has a complaint he or she will still go to a public representative. Can the public representative take up a case on behalf of a person, or will it be said that: "the person making the complaint has insufficient interest in the matter"? Does it mean that he cannot handle it on behalf of the complainant or does the complainant have to handle it himself?

Another point is that section 4 (2) says:

Subject to the provisions of this Act, the Ombudsman may investigate any action taken by or on behalf of a Department of State....

Does that mean that a complaint can be made against, shall we say, a health board which is the agent of the Department of Health—even though they are excluded—or against a local authority on behalf of the Minister for the Environment, as their agent, because they act on behalf of that Department? It would open up a far wider field if it was examined on those grounds? Further to what has been said already as to whether a community body can make a complaint, can a health board make a complaint against the Department of Health on the administration of that Department, or can a local authority, as a body representing the public, make a complaint against the Department of the Environment on their administration? Until I get these matters clarified I cannot see exactly how this Bill will operate.

Then there is the question: can the ombudsman himself initiate an investigation? In yesterday's Evening Herald there was a report from the British ombudsman on a health matter. He was complaining that he could not initiate an investigation himself but that he had to receive a complaint. He was complaining about the fact that there was some individual posing as a doctor who was actually carrying out operations even though he was not a qualified surgeon. The ombudsman could not initiate an investigation in that case.

If the Bill will give our people greater confidence I certainly welcome it. I am glad to note in the Bill the care that will be taken in appointing the person who will eventually be the ombudsman because I feel that will be of the utmost importance to the success of the Bill.

I should like to begin by congratulating the Minister on what was an unusually impressive introductory speech. Generally we in the Seanad are treated to a rehash of the Dáil introductory speech. In this case the Minister has taken the trouble to review the discussions in the Dáil and, therefore, made a fresh presentation of the Bill in the Seanad. That deserves congratulation. It has helped to change my approach and to make the emphasis of my contribution much more pro than anti. I am not so sure that, on certain occasions, I should not be speaking from the other side of the House. Perhaps the Office of Public Works would make special provision for an Independent section in the House.

Rather like the Bill we were discussing yesterday, we are all in favour of the principle of the Bill, although we might take issue with some of its details. The great merit of the Bill is that it recognises and attempts to do something about one of the great dilemmas of modern democracy. On the one hand there is the omnicompetent State—some cynics might say the omni-incompetent State—and on the other an increasing awareness of the individual's rights. One of the more welcome phenomena of the age in which we live, with all its drawbacks, is that there is a new and sensitive awareness of the rights of the individual. The Bill does its best to face this problem so there is no doubt about our support for the Bill in principle.

I take with a grain of salt the Opposition strictures on the Bill in the other House. Particularly I note that it was described by a leading Opposition spokesman as a Bill more suitable for an ombudsmouse. That particular Opposition gentleman doth protest too much. I see no evidence in history that Coalition Governments are more sensitive to the rights of the individual than Fianna Fáil Governments.

The Bill has been criticised by the Opposition and elsewhere in the press as the failure of the Government to let go its lust for power. The accusation has been made that they feel they have to do something about this rather fashionable idea of having a rights commissioner to deal with individual rights and at the same time that the ministerial and civil service hold on power is so strong that they are reluctant to loosen it; hence, it is alleged, the unsuccessful compromise in the Bill.

We must be fair about this. There is possibly at ministerial level and in the civil service a lust for power, at least a reluctance to let go of power. There is also a recognition that in the last resort it is Governments and the civil servants who serve them who are publicly accountable. The ombudsman will not, I hope, replace Government accountability.

I approve of what the Minister said in his introductory speech when he used the phrase "a much maligned bureaucracy". In all our concern for the individual's rights and the troubles which he may face in his dealings with the civil service, we should remember that civil servants do a good job and that a word like "bureaucracy", rather like the word "Victorian" which was used yesterday, is one of these words which instinctively make us salivate like Pavlov's dogs and say it is evil. I do not accept that bureaucracy in itself deserves the frequent strictures which it gets.

I do not agree by and large with the burden of criticism levelled at this Bill. I do not agree that the ombudsman will be an ombudsmouse or, to use a delicate parliamentary term, a eunuch. There are limits and exclusions in the Bill. Some of them have been promised as only temporary and I feel that when the Bill is established, the officer begins to function and the public begin to get used to the idea, the exclusions will be reconsidered and that if the situation warrants it the ombudsman's terms of reference will be widened to many of the areas now excluded. I accept such startling provisions of the Bill as the ministerial guillotine in section 5 (3) and I am also prepared to accept the limitation on the powers of the Revenue Commissioners in section 9 (2).

Like Senator Mary Robinson I must say I am rather worried about the complacency with which the prisons and the Garda seem to be excluded from the Bill. With respect to the Minister of State and repeating my congratulations on an impressive introductory statement, I simply cannot accept the blandness of his statement that prisoners already have adequate means of redress and their rights are adequately protected under the law and the Constitution. In recent times in this House we have had occasion to express concern at what may be going on in our prisons and that was certainly brought to the fore when we were discussing the Prisons Bill. I am not at all pleased about that kind of complacency. Perhaps the Government should have taken their courage in their hands and in general opted for a more courageous approach to the whole concept of the ombudsman instead of the diluted version which exists in some countries. They might have done well to have considered the openness of the original Scandinavian model. There will be an opportunity to talk about the Bill in detail on Committee Stage.

I would like to move ahead and consider the situation when the Bill will have been passed. At that stage it is a matter for the public to become acquainted with the new office and with their new rights. One of the problems in making democracy effective and vital is that citizens should be aware of their rights. Despite the enormous increase in publicity, despite the way in which the newspapers and the media have become a part of the citizen's life, there is still a large area of ignorance on the part of the citizens about their position under the law; hence the need for the free legal aid system. Daniel O'Connell, the great pioneer of parliamentary democracy in Ireland, had a favourite phrase which simply went "Know your wrongs". He frequently admonished his listeners, "Know your wrongs". When this Bill has passed it is very important that the citizens be acquainted with its provisions and with their new opportunities under the Bill. Therefore I strongly support what Senator Mary Robinson had to say in this regard. Remember that the educated and self-assured citizen does not need an ombudsman anyway. The person who needs an ombudsman is the kind of citizen who is bewildered by the law, by the panoply of the courts, by the insolence of office, by the law's delay—to use the Shakesperean term—and it is this kind of citizen who most needs to be told what the Bill will mean to him.

I appeal very strongly for the launching of a publicity campaign, consequent on the enactment of this Bill. Perhaps this is not directly the Minister's business but I should be glad if he would make a note of it and give us his views on that point. This will be the real test of the Government's sincerity. If a Bill is passed through both Houses, is signed into law and yet remains relatively unknown to the public, if it does not make an impact on the public, then I think we might question the Government's sincerity. We might well say they are simply introducing this ombudsman business in a deference to a particular role. Their sincerity depends very much on the extent to which the public will be informed and involved. I am thinking not alone about newspaper advertisements but about TV and radio campaigns as well, because the legal rights of the citizen are no less important than information on health matters. The Health Education bureau as it functioned under the former Minister for Health could well be said to be a model instrument for informing the citizens of what is good for them.

Senator Robinson and Senator Hussey, rather predictably perhaps, took exception to the sexist overtone of the term "ombudsman". I am not a scholar in Scandinavian languages but I should not be surprised if they were not being over sensitive. The ending "man" may not so much mean male as simply homo sapiens. Nevertheless I would take issue with the term in another way and that is that I am rather sorry that whatever civil service Department are responsible for the research that goes into this Bill, studying the continental models and so on, did not come up with a suitable native term for this new and strange office. Surely there must be in the Irish language or in Hiberno-English some recognisable term which would have given it a native flavour. It was rather mindlessly imitative to have adhered to the term “ombudsman”. It may be reasonably familiar to us, to politicians and public people but it is still a very exotic term indeed to the man in the Gurranebraher bus who will have some difficulty in coming to terms with the expression “ombudsman”. I fear initially that many people will think it is some kind of obscure Irish dialect. Incidentally it was defined in the Reuters Swedish-English dictionary in 1966 as a public official appointed to investigate citizens' complaints against government officials. The very brief English equivalent of ombudsman is apparently “commissioner”.

I see no reason why in the Government-sponsored publicity campaign which I envisage, and without which the application of the Bill will be meaningless, the terms should not be explained, why there should not be a brief note on its historical development and in general an attempt to see that it becomes a familiar term with the public. The important thing about this Bill—here I take my cue from the Minister's speech; it was an exceptionally good speech—is not the defects of the Bill, not the limitations of the Bill but the fact that it is a new development and that the citizen should become accustomed to using its potential. If it is successful, if the office is seen to work, then there will be a demand for the extension of the powers of the ombudsman.

There is one area in which I was rather disappointed. It excludes from consideration matters of job promotion and that kind of thing. I am not sure what is the exact section there, I think it is section 5, subsection (1) (c), where it mentions one of the areas of exclusion as relating to recruitment or appointment to any office of employment in a Department of State. I can see the difficulties in letting the ombudsman loose in this area. We should remember that one of the areas of a persistent cynicism among ordinary Irish people, for whatever historical reasons, is a cynicism about jobs especially public jobs. There is no more repeated cynical piece of "wisdom" than the saying: "Of course it was pull". When the office of the ombudsman is established it should be considered how the ombudsman might combat this particular piece of corrosive and persistent cynicism. At a time when Parliament is being seen as increasingly irrelevant—and with some good reason—it is a pleasure to welcome this new departure. Without being starry-eyed it is a new dimension of popular rights, a new frontier of democracy.

I should like to make a very brief contribution if only to confirm, as a former public servant who achieved, incidentally, appointment and promotion without "pull", that I have no reservations about the principle of this Bill. I consider it a good Bill, carefully and wisely drafted after comprehensive consultation and indeed improved by amendments during its passage through the Dáil. I can accept, at least for the time being, the exclusion of certain areas from the range of investigation of the ombudsman. I am glad to see that two areas at least, local authorities and health boards, will be removed from that exclusion after a short interval. I am glad to know that it is the Government's disposition to review from time to time the possibility of bringing new areas within the jurisdiction of the ombudsman by a kind of evolutionary process in the light of experience and need. I also find commendable the compromise which was reached on the difficult problem of tempering the right of a Minister to veto the intervention of the ombudsman. A reasonable qualification to that right has been inserted in the Bill.

In line with the Senators who stressed the need for public education in simple terms of the functions of the ombudsman it is particularly important that it be widely understood that inaction as well as action comes within his jurisdiction. The incautious reader of section 4 and later sections where all the stress is on "action" and "action taken" might be misled if he had not adverted to the definition clause in section 1 which does specify that, save where the context otherwise requires, "action" includes failure to act and omission. We all recognise that negligence and unjustifiable delay can constitute maladministration and be just as vexatious and detrimental to the interests of the citizen as positive decisions and positive actions. Therefore, they can give rise to a legitimate ground for complaint by the citizen.

In passing, I feel I must deprecate what I consider the excessively strong language used by Senator Harte and, to some degree, by Senator Robinson, when words like "harassment", "intimidation" and "oppression" were applied to the public service. Admittedly, they were not intended to be of general validity. I react always when the civil service or public service has ascribed to it, generously, the one virtue, integrity—a virtue which, I think, is set up as a kind of compensation for the attribution of a great many vices. But, whatever faults or vices the public service has, I would not think it is fair to include aggressiveness or vindictiveness.

Senator Brennan, in his contribution, described this Bill as just one step in the process of reform of the public service. I support that view. Other steps are necessary, especially internal measures, as a back-up to the effectiveness of the legislation we are now considering. These measures include arrangements to improve efficiency and courtesy. I would like to stress courtesy, as I have done here before. It comprehends for me speedy attention to representations and letters from the public and also the courtesy of telling people in simple language the basis for the decision conveyed to them, whether it is positive or negative.

Another very important measure of an internal kind, which would back up the effectiveness of the ombudsman's role, is the fixing of responsibility for executive functions as far as possible on named individuals. We tend to forget that this was the second leg of the reforms proposed in the original Devlin Report. The first, we all remember, concerned the creation of an Aireacht to deal with policy matters in the various Departments. The second, which we forget, is that for the executive agencies, as distinct from the policy organs, the recommendation was that some identifiable named individual should be responsible for the efficient discharge of the executive functions. As far as I am aware, nothing has been done about that yet. The fact that it has not been done means that there still exists a tendency to evade direct responsibility in difficult matters by seeking refuge in anonymity.

Senator Dowling expressed a fear that the operations of the ombudsman might slow down even further the civil service process. I think that when he said that he was thinking of this Bill as dealing mainly with the actions of civil servants. But, as I have said, this Bill covers inaction also. The overshadowing presence of the ombudsman would, I expect, have some good effect in remedying inaction particularly if it is backed up by those measures to fix responsibility and enhance the courtesy of the public service to which I have referred. I support the Bill.

I should like to take this opportunity to welcome the new Minister of State to the Seanad. I know he has been here on other occasions but this is the first opportunity I have had of welcoming him in his capacity as Minister of State and of wishing him well in his new appointment. It is refreshing that he should come to the Seanad on this occasion with a Bill that was, in my view, urgently required. As Senators Brennan and Whitaker said, I hope it is the start of a reform generally of the whole public service.

I would like to begin by referring to some of the remarks made by Senators Hussey and Robinson—Senator Murphy referred to these also—in regard to the Title of the Bill. I am not as sensitive as they are to the title "ombudsman". There are many words in the English vocabulary like the words "human" and "woman", all of which end with "man". It does not really matter to me what the person is called provided the appointment is open to men and women suitably qualified who are able to carry out the post efficiently. I hope that whoever is appointed is familiar with the public service and with the workings of Government Departments. If they are not they would not be adequately able to carry out this very important function. I would not agree with Senators Hussey and Robinson that the title is sexist in any way. I think it is just a question of semantics and it does not really matter what the title is provided the job is open to men and women and the work is carried out efficiently.

Senators on all sides of the House, as did Deputies in Dáil Éireann, welcomed in principle this Bill. There were very few complaints about the actual contents of the Bill. That is as it should be, because the function, as the Minister of State said in his opening address, of this particular person will be to investigate complaints against the administration, against Government Departments or Government agencies. I believe that in any democracy it is vital that the ordinary individual has some vehicle by which he can challenge Government decisions. With the increasing power of the bureaucracy and with the involvement of the State more and more in the lives of the ordinary individual, it is only right and proper that we should now set up the machinery. I hope it is only the start and that it will be reviewed from time to time to make sure that this post is effective and that it deals adequately with the many complaints individuals may have against the bureaucracy.

Our Constitution, which we frequently quote, guarantees the rights of the individual. It sets out a number of individual personal rights that every individual in Ireland is guaranteed and to which every individual in Ireland is entitled. The only effective way in which that aspect of the Constitution can be upheld is if there is somebody like an ombudsman who can, independently and fairly, ensure that the decisions of the Government and Government Departments are just and fair and that no particular individual is discriminated against. It is important in any democratic State that the Government of the day should have somebody who will check on it, somebody who is independent and above that Government.

I am very happy that the Minister of State told us yesterday that the new person appointed will be appointed after consultation with both leaders of the Opposition parties. That in my view is how it should be because whoever is appointed must be independent and must be above any political party. I know we have the courts where an individual can ensure that his rights are upheld but as all of us know it is cumbersome and expensive to take a case to the courts in Ireland. Because of our legal system it militates very much against the ordinary individual who may have a grievance and there have been very few cases that have been taken to the courts in this country. I hope that the creation of this post will make people more aware of what their rights are and will make sure that they will pursue their individual rights and that they are not in any way militated against.

I am delighted that in a few months the Minister will review the Bill and make sure that the health boards and the local authorities will be included. That is as it should be. I should like to ask the Minister of State if, for example, the regulations drawn up by Government Departments and by Ministers will be open to investigation by the ombudsman. I am aware of a very recent case of where a constituent who had held eight provisional driving licences, applied for her ninth provisional licence but because of bureaucratic delays in the licensing office failed to receive her licence before the new regulation came in last October. When she took up her case with the relevant licensing authority she was told that the new regulations provided that only the holder of a current provisional licence was entitled to receive a full driving licence. I believe that she was militated against. Hers was a genuine grievance. I wonder if cases of that nature will be open to investigation by the ombudsman.

I hope, too, that in relation to the appointment the person concerned will be separate from the administration and that he or she, whoever the person is, will not become part of the administration, that we will not confuse the person as part of the overall bureaucracy. It is important that he or he should remain separate from Government and is not seen as just another arm of that Government.

It is also important that the ordinary individual has access to the ombudsman. You can have all the rights, you can have all the different people to take up your individual rights or grievances but unless people are aware that this person exists, unless they have access to his office, there is not much point in having such an office. I hope, as Senator Brennan said yesterday, that there will be branch offices throughout the country so that more and more people will be able to call very conveniently to those branch offices of the ombudsman.

I also think it is important that we should have a public campaign to inform people of the existence of an ombudsman, of what his functions are, and it would be desirable if the Minister's Department or some other Department would prepare a simple explanatory leaflet telling the public what exactly this position is all about, what they are entitled to and how they go about contacting the ombudsman.

Most public representatives will probably say that in some way the creation of the office of ombudsman is refreshing, that it will relieve their work. In my view public representatives in Ireland, be they Dáil Deputies, Senators or county councillors, have been acting as ombudsmen for a long time. I do not think that is going to change because there is this in-built attitude in Ireland that unless one goes to a politician one will not get what one is entitled to. I would like to think that all politicians would make it very clear to the public that they cannot get for them anything to which they are not entitled. All we can do is bring new facts to bear but we cannot get something for somebody unless he is entitled to it. We can only ensure that people get what is their due.

I can see a situation where people will take up their particular grievances with the ombudsman but where, if his decision does not solve their problem, they will then come to the politicians feeling that this is the last resort they have. At a function about two weeks ago a lady came up to me and said, "You have known my husband all your life. I thought it anybody was to give him his old age pension it would have been you". She honestly felt that I could have done something dramatic, something new, to give her husband his old age pension. This attitude is prevalent and it is a pity it is. If the situation were otherwise, the job of the public representative would be more a legislative one than a representative one. More time could be devoted to the essential business of a public representative which is dealing with legislation and bringing in new laws and making sure that they are relevant.

I should like to welcome the Bill again and to express the hope that it will be reviewed frequently to make sure that with changing circumstances, with the volume of legislation coming from Government Departments, the role of the ombudsman and his functions will be clearly defined, that they will be updated and that the various ministerial regulations will be open to inspection. Perhaps there is a case to be made that before regulations are implemented the ombudsman may have a look at them to see if they militate against any particular individual because there have been instances where legislation, particularly legislation that may have been brought in in a hurry, has militated very seriously against very many individuals who have had no comeback.

I hope the office of ombudsman will make people aware of what their rights are and will give them the confidence to challenge their rights, make sure their grievances are looked after and that section of the Constitution which guarantees personal rights is truly upheld. This can only be done by the creation of this post. For that reason I welcome the Bill and I should like to congratulate the Minister on a very thorough speech in the House yesterday. As Senator Murphy said, it was not just a re-hash of what he said in the Dáil. It is a welcome change that a Minister will go to the bother of preparing a fresh speech for the Seanad, which I think we deserve.

I welcome this Bill which has particular benefits for such persons as those applying for old age pensions, for housing grants, for those experiencing problems with their income tax assessments, or who are experiencing problems with semi-State bodies. The creation of this office will relieve the difficulties of the small man and of the less well-off sections of the community in relation to bureaucratic decisions of an excess character. Up to now the only procedure a citizen could resort to for redress after he had failed with his public representatives was the costly buuiness of bringing an action in the High Court, seeking a declaration from the court that he was qualified and entitled in law to the reliefs he sought from the bureaucrats in the first instance. This procedure was outside the scope of the small man because he could not take a chance on getting himself caught up in huge legal costs. There was also the delay involved in having a case determined by the courts.

The ombudsman will rectify injustices and grievances. I should like to congratulate the Minister on bringing this very important legislation to this House. In my opinion it is the greatest thing since the Magna Carta.

I regret to say that while I welcome this Bill it does not go far enough in regard to the areas which it should cover. From reading what the Minister said in the other House when he was introducing the Bill, and what he says today, I see that there has been a certain advance in the Minister's mind. Perhaps if he had the whole thing to do again he might well have started off at a stage further along the road to having an ombudsman covering as many spheres as possible in the Local Government and in State fields also rather than what we see in this Bill,

In the Dáil, the Minister said that the Bill provides for extension to other bodies of the ombudsman's activities. He did not specify that that extension would take place within any specified period of time. He also said that the bureaucratic system works well. It would appear to me that he was conscious of the need for having an ombudsman acting but less conscious of the extent to which an ombudsman should be seen by the ordinary citizen to be operating.

In the Minister's speech yesterday he referred to the plain people of Ireland looking upon the office of the ombudsman as being necessary. I would regard the position of ombudsman as having two very important functions. First, the citizens are going to look on this office as a forum of last resort in most cases in regard to complaints on which they have been frustrated and where they have been personally aggrieved as a result of some bureaucratic maladministration, something which they might not have understood: they may have gone through every other channel and finally finished up saying: "We can now go to the ombudsman, he is our last resort".

The second point is that the Departments will be in continuing fear of this office of ombudsman. He will be in their minds at all times when they draft any legislation, when they enforce regulations and when they administer their Departments. If the Departments are not to be conscious of the existence of the ombudsman and with a fear that he may well act without having to await representations by an aggrieved citizen, the Departments may decide they can overrule the ombudsman in certain matters.

Will the Bill meet these two needs? First, will it stand as a forum of last resort for ordinary people throughout the country? Secondly, will the Departments stand in continual fear of the ombudsman? When I use the word "fear" I do not do so in the physical or mental sense. I mean Departments will always be conscious of the presence of the ombudsman who may well interfere in administrative matters if his office considers that something has been going wrong.

Therefore, the provisions in the Bill fall down on these two counts. First of all, we can look at the big list of exemptions of bodies which operate in everyday activities dealing with the day-to-day lives of citizens. Such bodies are excluded to an excessive extent, to my mind. The Minister when introducing the Bill in the Seanad changed his footing from his previous stand: he said here that he will bring local authorities and health boards within the remit of the ombudsman within three months of his appointment. That is a considerable advance on what he said when introducing the Bill in the Dáil. However, I am astounded that we should have to wait for three months to bring these bodies in. The Minister gives the excuse that there will be administrative difficulties. He said consultations must take place with these bodies before their inclusion. It will be some months before the ombudsman's appointment and I cannot foresee the ombudsman beginning to exercise his powers on the first morning of his appointment in regard to all State bodies.

I have some figures which I got in yesterday's Irish Independent in regard to the operations of the Complaints Commissioner, the equivalent in Northern Ireland of the ombudsman. In his report in regard to Northern Ireland, the commissioner gave some figures which highlight the extent to which the matters which the Minister is excluding in the Bill would be relevant. The report specified that in Northern Ireland 658 complaints were received, of which two-thirds were investigated. In regard to housing there were 470 complaints, and 67 were in regard to employment. Therefore, housing and employment were responsible for the great percentage of the complaints.

However, here we find the Minister saying that local authorities with their great responsibility in regard to housing will not be brought within the remit of the ombudsman. The First Schedule provides that the Employment Appeals Tribunal and the Employment Equality Agency are not to be within the remit of the ombudsman. I am disappointed at these exclusions. If the ordinary person is to see this office as his last resort in the matter of grievances, he will be disappointed when he sees the authorities which will not be the concern of the ombudsman. So the Bill, far from getting off on the right footing will be a great disappointment to the majority of citizens who will be looking to this office to remedy their sense of grievance.

The Minister has told us that discussions with all political parties will be held and that the office of ombudsman will be independent in the performance of its functions. That is provided in section 4 (1), but from there on the Bill begins to go backwards from the point of view of the capability and efficacy of this office. After section 4 we begin to find numerous exemptions written in, many reference to ministerial authority and sanction, and numerous exclusions in the two Schedules. Consequently, I think the public will not expect this office to have the independence and the authority we would wish it to have.

The Minister has said that all parties will enter into discussions before the appointment will be recommended to the Oireachtas. The public must be satisfied that the office of ombudsman will not be another adjunct of bureaucracy. Therefore, a great selling job will have to be done by the office itself and by its officials to convince the public that this office will not be a mere adjunct of any department. Unfortunately, when we look at other sections of the Bill we can see that Departments, by interfering or requesting the ombudsman not to pursue investigations, can instil fear in the public mind that the office may not be as independent as the public might wish. The office will suffer grievously as regard status and efficacy if, when a person submits a grievance, he is told by the ombudsman that the case cannot be pursued because the Minister made a written request that the ombudsman should not exercise his functions in that respect.

Section 5 provides that where the Minister or the Government so request in writing, the ombudsman shall not investigate or he shall cease to investigate an action specified in the request. I appreciate that in his annual report the ombudsman may refer to these matters, but it might be too late in certain instances. I would have preferred if a discretion had been left to the ombudsman, if he were given the option to say yes or no to such a request. After all, if this office is to mean anything in effective terms it must be seen to be over and above interference or influence by any Minister or Department. When a citizen finds himself rejected in a request and the ombudsman writes back to him saying he cannot interfere, "and I hereby enclose a copy of the request by the Minister setting out his reasons why I should not pursue the matter", the complainant will be left in the dark as to why the ombudsman cannot operate. I submit that section 5 (3) should have been left discretionary.

Section 6 (3) provides:

Where, following an investigation under this Act into an action, it appears to the Ombudsman that the action adversely affected a person to whom paragraph (a) of section 4 (2) of this Act applies and fell within paragraph (b) of the said section 4 (2) he may recommend to the Department of State, or other person specified in Part I of the First Schedule to this Act, concerned—

(a) that the matter in relation to which the action was taken be further considered,

(b) that measures or specified measures be taken to remedy, mitigate or alter the adverse affect of the action, or

(c) that the reasons for taking the action be given to the Ombudsman.

Surely the ombudsman would at that stage have already received the reasons for taking the action. I cannot understand the reason behind the inclusion of paragraph (c) in that subsection and I would ask the Minister to explain it when replying.

In regard to section 7, which provides for travelling and subsistence expenses and other allowances by way of compensation for loss of time, it says "such amounts as may be determined by the Minister". Why the Minister? Surely the ombudsman should be given some capacity in this regard, some authority to determine what travelling and subsistence expenses and what compensation for loss of time should be given to a person as a result of taking an action. That is an unjust interference with the ombudsman's office and in the ordinary person's mind it will detract from the efficacy of that office.

Section 8 has to do with all the proceedings of the ombudsman being conducted "otherwise than in public", which means they shall be in private. It is as simple as that. There may be instances where the ombudsman would regard it as being of national and of general public interest that a matter should be held in public. We would improve the office by leaving it to the discretion of the ombudsman to determine whether investigations should be held in private or in public.

Subsection (3) of section 8 would have covered the situation quite admirably by saying:

Subject to provisions of this Act, the procedure for conducting an investigation shall be such as the ombudsman considers appropriate in all the circumstances of the case.

I conclude from one of the initial sections that remuneration and allowances for expenses will be paid to the holder of this office as appropriate to a judge of the High Court. We will have a responsible person holding this office, a person of the utmost integrity, who could be depended upon to use his ordinary commonsense and discretion in regard to the procedures to be operated by his office. We should not have restricted him. If the ombudsman felt that it was in the general or public interest at times to go public in certain matters, it should be left to his discretion. As it is, we are denying him that discretion and the ombudsman must hold all his hearings in private.

Subsection (4) of section 8 is taking away from a complainant a right which he has in regard to matters of appeal where he has been refused unemployment benefit and so on. Subsection (4) says:

The Ombudsman may determine whether any person may be represented, by counsel, solicitor or otherwise, in an investigation.

It should be open to any person to bring in a solicitor, barrister, counsellor or anybody he so wishes, even a public representative, to make representations on his behalf, face to face with the officials of the ombudsman's office. It should not be restricted in any way. People may not be in a privileged position, and may be unable to give their opinions when confronted by officials. It should be entirely open to the complainant to decide whether he wishes to have a solicitor, barrister or even a public representative making his case for him.

This Bill emphasises secrecy a bit too much. If the office is to mean anything it must be open in all its investigations and it must convince the public who are going to use it, and those who may never use it, that it, as an arm of the State which is over and above any Department or Minister, will be available to them at all times. The restrictions necessary to be written into the Bill as regards matters of security or matters prejudicial to the public interest could well have been met in a much more limited fashion. Such restraints in regard to the secrecy of the operations and in regard to the information that can be supplied to the Minister will only inhibit full examination. Furthermore, it will do great damage to the citizen's belief that he has an office at his disposal which will act in his interest. The office of ombudsman is to operate on behalf of the citizen. The citizen should feel that there is a person or official he can go to when he has been aggrieved, frustrated and when he has exhausted every other course. If the citizen is going to feel inhibited in regard to certain information being available to the ombudsman from Departments or Ministers or from any agency brought within the ombudsman's remit, then we are doing harm to the office of ombudsman as well as doing harm to the citizen.

Section 10 has to do with the staffing of the ombudsman's office. Here again it will be left to the Minister to determine the establishment numbers, the calibre, the qualifications and so. That is a reflection on a person who is going to be of High Court judge standing. The ombudsman could have been entrusted to look after staffing matters and could have been entrusted to deal with all matters pertaining to his officials. Why the Minister? Why not the Civil Service Commission or some such body?

The Schedules are extensive more by reason of what they exclude from the remit of the ombudsman than from what will be brought within his ambit. I have already referred to the Employment Appeals Tribunal and the Employment Equality Agency. These are two fields in which there can be a great amount of grievance and frustration felt by the ordinary citizens. I fail to see why these are excluded.

The National Prices Commission are also excluded. There may be a case where an industrialist or a manufacturer may feel that the National Prices Commission may not have given him as fair a hearing as he would have desired in regard to seeking a price increase. I do not for one moment say that we should give any manufacturer or industrialist the price increase that he is seeking, but there can be genuine cases. By excluding the National Prices Commission decisions from the ambit of the ombudsman, we may be doing an injustice to manufacturers. An Coimisiún Dumpálá, the Restrictive Practices Commission, the Examiner of Restrictive Practices and the Director of Consumer Affairs are all excluded. I find this strange.

In relation to the Second Schedule, where the greatest number of exclusions operate, the Minister now says that he will allow local authorities and health boards to be brought within the ambit of the ombudsman within three months of his appointment. I find it strange, if so much can be done within three months of the appointment of this officer, who will really be only finding his feet at that stage, why they could not have been included at the outset. A similar situation applies to the very many other bodies who are listed in the Second Schedule to the Bill.

This office of ombudsman is welcome, but the constraints put upon him are not to my liking. They will only inhibit the official in the operation of his office. These constraints will also leave the citizen aggrieved, perhaps even more than he was when he first realised he could go to a person like the ombudsman. I would ask the Minister to bring all the bodies he has excluded in the Second Schedule within the remit of the ombudsman immediately. If we start excluding people we will leave the ordinary person confused about whom he can bring complaints against to the ombudsman. If this office is to operate satisfactorily, it must be made a simple office for the ordinary person. It must come across as a form of last resort that one can avail of in every circumstance. We should have confidence in the integrity of the official concerned and should have the minimum number of constraints in regard to matters prejudicial to public interest or matters pertaining to security. There are far too many exclusions and the office will suffer as a result.

A lot has been said which I would like to have said but I will not repeat it. The record of this debate will be unique in that any student of public administration should be interested to see what the reactions of the Members of this House are to novel, long-awaited legislation like this. The danger that could arise from the introduction of this Bill might be what one writer has called ombudsmania, that we get a plethora of requests for complaints investigation. In the past when Bills of this kind have been introduced this has not happened. What can be seen from reports that have come from people like the parliamentary commissioner in the UK shows what we all know, that taken all in all public servants do a very good job and justify the claims for the integrity which have been put forward for them over the years.

It may be of interest to the House if I draw attention to the fact that the journal Administration of summer 1970 contains a review by Sir Edmund Compton of the British ombudsman as he called it. I will just put it on the record of the House for anybody who might be keen to follow up some evaluations of the effectiveness of schemes of this kind, even though in the case of the British parliamentary commissioner the complaints are raised by Members of the Houses of Parliament. The fact which might be of interest—I turn them into percentages—is that where he found problems as reported, 35 per cent of them were due to delays arising from maladministration; 20 per cent were due to misapplication of procedures and rules; 20 per cent were due to taking action without adequate information; 13 per cent were just mistakes and 12 per cent of them were just bad advice.

The one which comes out most is delays. I cannot help drawing attention to the fact that the place where most delays tend to take place, and I have said this in the House before, is in the legislative drag. For instance, Sweden has the office of ombudsman in action since the year 1809. Finland has one since 1919 and Denmark since 1957. The UK had their parliamentary commissioner around 1967. We are coming in 13 years later. If delay is taking place at any level it is probably in our own Houses. We might have a look at ourselves in terms of putting our Houses in order. I might remind the House that Gladstone said when he was asked what was the business of the Members of the House: "Your business is not to govern but if you see fit to call into account those who govern".

The development of the ombudsman is a very important innovation. I should like to commend Senator Markey's fine opposition speech. He knows in his heart that this is a very good Bill and that no matter what one includes or excludes one will find arguments about it. As Senator Whitaker said, this will be an evolutionary matter and, over time as we learn more about the office and how it works, other things can be brought in,

There are some dangers about it. The dangers are that it might make public servants somewhat more defensive. Some of the higher public servants might be less inclined to delegate because of the fear of an investigation by the ombudsman. All of these are outweighed by the fact that the ombudsman represents a symbol of confidence in administration, the fact that he is in some way the collective embodiment of a citizen's right to have matters he is concerned with administered properly. I should point out that in the Swedish case all citizens have rights of access to public documents. In fact the idea of ombudsman arose in Sweden because he was the instrument of that right and the way it could be exercised and, therefore, it was very easy to introduce the concept of ombudsman into the Swedish legislative and administrative system. In other parliamentary systems that did not apply and the notion of the secrecy Act rules and the way the ombudsman would be introduced would vary depending on the structure of government and the structure of administration.

I agree with and support my colleagues who mentioned that the Minister's speech was a very fine, down-to-earth speech which showed that the Minister had learned from the exercise in the Dáil and came to the Seanad from that point. A distinction was made between what was referred to in the speech as the value judgments and the difficulties of including in the legislation how one would investigate value judgments. This raised for me as a student and lecturer in administration the whole question of the decision-making process and to what extent it is possible to examine maladministration in relation to decision-making. What we are doing in effect is distinguishing between the quality of the procedures that are used in making the decisions from the quality of the decision itself. One can hold somebody to account for the fact that they have not taken into consideration all the possible alternatives involved in a decision or all the possible ways of measuring the effectiveness of the decision or all the possible ways of setting criteria for the measurement of different courses of action. In the long run, in a situation where things are uncertain and subject to risk the decision maker eventually select some course of action which is a value judgment. It is very difficult to hold anybody to account for their value judgments as such. It was sensible in the Bill not to try to deal with that and to distinguish between the two. A Minister cannot be held to account for taking what is, in his best judgment in terms of his own value system, right in relation to a particular act.

The question of the reform of the public service suggested by the committee under Devlin has been raised already. I see the ombudsman role being complimentary to the work of the committee on the public service which produces periodic reports. I hope in the future, and maybe the Minister would like to comment on this, that the ombudsman will be used in relation to the structures that exist in the Department of the Public Service. The Houses have heard me before say I believe that most of the problems and the delays that arise in the public service arise because the structure is wrong.

One instance which the Minister knows very well is the duality system, to which attention was drawn in the Devlin Report, where the service tends to fall into a technical and administrative structure—a needless dichotomy. It has led to problems over and over again. I remember attending a seminar to examine the effects of this in 1964-1965 which was attended, among others, by Senator Whitaker, who was head of the civil service at the time as Secretary of the Department of Finance. We pointed out at that time the problems that arose from a dual structure. I hope that the ombudsman can be used to show up the friction and inertia in the service which slows the effectiveness of decisions. Under procedures I would also put the whole question of the structure of the public service. I see the ombudsman as having a role in relation to that. Whether I am right or not in that interpretation is another thing.

I am not so sure from my readings whether statutory instruments or statutory orders as such come under the ombudsman's terms of reference. Where it mentions that the staff of the ombudsman would be civil servants, I am not sure from reading the Bill whether this was ex-ante or ex-post. Do they have to be civil servants before they are appointed or can they be recruited from outside the service? I am strongly of the opinion that some of the officers acting in the Department of the ombudsman should be drawn from outside the service. It is the old problem of quis custodet ipsos custodes. I should like to see fresh thinking there even though it is essential that some of them should be drawn from the civil service, because they would have the commonsense knowledge that one gets from working in a particular environment.

One matter struck me particularly in relation to some points made by the Opposition, that local authorities are excluded. The Department of the Environment is not excluded, it has a function in relation to local authorities. If I wanted to raise issues in relation to some aspects of local authority administration, I would do it by having it in offshot as we say in billiards, and try to get at the Department of the Environment.

The Minister could exclude local authorities from Schedule 2.

No, if a question is raised under the heading of the Department of the Environment, one could be clever enough to phrase the complaint to cover the issues involved. The other thing in relation to that would be personnel matters being excluded. The question was raised about the hiring and procedures for staffing. The Department of the Public Service is there, the Minister's own Department. One could call into question the procedures being approved of by that Department as an indirect way. Maybe that is a bit Machiavellian, but it is a way of getting around it as one can see if one reads the article by the accountant which I mentioned earlier, that the UK were coming around to trying to find ways of handling the local authorities independently.

I quote from what is known as the "Crossman Catalogue" which was introduced by Crossman, then Lord President of the Council, in the debate on the Bill in the House of Commons on 18 October 1966. At column 51 of Hansard he said:

We might have made an attempt in this clause to define, by catalogue, all of the qualities which might count for maladministration by a civil servant—bias, neglect, inattention, delay, incompetence, ineptitude, perversity, turpitude, arbitrariness and so on.

The great thing that has come out of the UK Parliamentary Commissioner's Report is that these nasty parts of the catalogue have not turned up. What turned up were delays, misapplication of rules, insufficient information, straightforward mistakes and straightforward bad advice. As Senator Whitaker said, the offensive or aggressive aspects of the catalogue do not seen to come through. I believe that the Bill and the post and role of ombudsman, by providing a public watchdog to represent people in the defence of their rights, is going to introduce that extra element of efficiency motivation in the public service. Because of that I welcome it and where it is going to lead us in the future. Dick Roche, who lectures in University College, Dublin, is doing extensive research into the role of ombudsman and how it can bring about more effectiveness and more efficiency in the public sector.

In common with Senator Murphy, I have one negative which could be turned into a positive. It is a pity that, once again, we cannot find a suitable word to cover the title "ombudsman" in the Irish language. I had intended to raise this before I heard him speak, but I was thinking myself of some name like "ceartóir" or——

Umpóir——

Possibly, ach focal éigin cosúil le sin. Beimis in ann ár stampa féin a chur ar an oifig seo gan dul go dtí na Lochlannaigh in ainneoin gur bhaineamar úsáid as an-chuid focal ó na Lochlannaigh ins an am atá caite. Ba cheart an uair seo, bfhéidir, focal eile d'fháil, focal cosúil le "ceartóir".

Senator Harney dealt with sexist overtones tremendously well, by pointing out that the end of the words "human" and "woman", bring in the notion of humanity. Irish gets over this very well. We have no problems about "Chairman" and "Chair Persons". We just say "Cathaoirleach". I do not know why we can not use our own language which provides the answer. Maybe in the future "ceartóir" will break through. In any event I welcome the Bill.

I will be very brief. I have only one point to make. I have great respect for the public service through my involvement with them and when I made representations on behalf of constituents to the members of the public service, there was always goodwill. At the same time it is necessary to have an ombudsman because we all commit sin from time to time and I suppose the ombudsman will do that also. The reason I make this point is because there has been a recent development within Government circles to get greater influence within the public service. Representations have been made to high officials in the public service by Members of the Oireachtas but when the representations were examined, the replies were sent to Members of the Government party who did not make representations. That is the most grievous of all sins. The ombudsman will correct that. If the ombudsman does not correct that situation there is no need for him. That is an area he will have to look into. He will have to see that private representations get the respect they deserve.

I did not intend speaking on this but a constituent told me today that he had received a letter from a Department on behalf of another person in the Government party who did not make representation on the person's behalf. I made the representation but I did not get a reply. That is why I agree that an ombudsman should be appointed to look after not alone the grievances of civil servants but those of Members of the Oireachtas also.

I shall be brief. I welcome the Bill, the contents of which are innovative. It will be of tremendous benefit to many categories of people. From my experience over the last 25 years I find the public in general are very tolerant. It is only when they go to a public counter and, as so often happens, they are met by a junior person in the office—especially if one goes to a taxation or a departmental office accustomed to dealing with large numbers of the public—that they lose their tolerance. Very often, through inexperience, young civil servants or local government officials lack tact, sympathy and understanding. Through that lack of experience they provoke what would normally be law abiding members of the public and aggravate the citizen to an unfortunate degree. This releases a chain reaction. In multi-seat constituencies in the kind of democracy we have, if a person has a complaint, he is motivated to write a letter, and once he takes a pen in his hand he seems to write to everybody. That creates unnecessary bottlenecks in public offices.

I hope that once this important office of ombudsman is established the general body of the public service will not think that it is going to deal with all problems. We should be ever vigilant to ensure that the problems do not arise in the first place. Public service officials who deal with the public—this is getting increasingly difficult, because people seem to inherit more difficult problems—should give greater thought to having experienced people available to deal with the public. It is not a demeaning task to have to talk to an ordinary citizen in the course of work. That is what happens and one finds that as a public representative. If one goes to a Department one often finds that an inexperienced official is sent to deal with the problem. Such officials have not got the wide knowledge to deal in depth with the question. In my own experience I have noticed that if one calls to an office in one's working clothes or if one does not look like a politician, one gets a different reception from what one would get if one is referred down by the Secretary of the Department. That is not acceptable. When the service is there people should be treated with respect. Everybody's individual problem should be treated with respect and given the maximum amount of attention.

I should like to ask the Minister if, after the establishment of this office, we can expect legislation similar to the Prosecution of Offences Act which was introduced shortly after the establishment of the office of the Director of Public Prosecutions? That was an admirable piece of legislation under which public representatives had to comply with its provisions. The public accepted that there was no point in seeking special treatment in relation to some kinds of offences.

This Bill will give Members of the Oireachtas more time to deal with the important business of legislating. We had the complaint here, even in this session, that on the Finance Bill, an important piece of legislation, to name one item, we got only about half-way through it. We need to be able to handle every piece of legislation. Legislators should have the facility and the time to study in depth not only the Bill passing through the House but the problems that may arise under it. Of late too many matters have been referred to the courts. While that is a last resort, and not necessarily a bad thing, it should be possible to find all the loopholes when Bills are under examination in both Houses. The machinery is there. I sometimes think that for one reason or another it is not operated as fully as many of us would like it to be. It is a pity that the ombudsman will not have competence right away in the entire field of local and regional public administration because it is in those areas that the ordinary member of the public will perhaps come up against administration most often. It is important that there should be an opportunity for people who feel aggrieved to have access to a referee or an ombudsman.

I would like to ask the Minister if a third party will be empowered to make a complaint on behalf of another person. This will be important especially if the office is not going to be decentralised or regionalised. It is also important where so many people are not able to express themselves adequately in writing; they are not necessarily illiterate, but there are still quite a number of people who are not very good with the pen and there should be provision so that their complaints would have the chance of being aired and being brought before this office.

I would like to wish the Minister well in the establishment of this new office. So far as the person who shall have the honour and the difficult task of filling this post initially and creating all the precedents is concerned, I wish him or her well in the task. I hope that this will be yet another milestone in improving the public services here. The last such office we had here was the creation of the post of Director of Public Prosecutions. All fair minded people will agree that that was a very positive step and it has benefited the administration. This new office of ombudsman, irrespective of what we call the office, will be an important link in our democratic institutions.

Some complaints were made against the contents of the Bill and some people said that the ombudsman would not have teeth under the Bill. I wonder if the Minister could tell me whether or not the ombudsman will have the power to impose sanctions or to direct that somebody will impose sanctions on people who are found after an investigation to be guilty either of mismanagement or indolence? If not there would not be much point in having a very expensive piece of machinery or legislation to carry out the procedures and so on. If the ombudsman finds that Mr. A. or Mr. B. in a particular Department was indolent or perhaps through human failure did not fulfil his office adequately there should be some kind of sanction to ensure that it does not happen again so that we do not have to go through the same procedure for every second citizen that comes into that office. It is important that the ombudsman should be able to ask or suggest or expect that some sanctions would be imposed. There should be some stick to assist him in his office to ensure not only are wrongs corrected but that erroneous procedures are not continued indefinitely.

I did not intend to speak on this Bill but having listened to the debate there are just a few brief points that I would like to make.

Senator Butler mentioned that replies to representations being made by Members of the Oireachtas could go to somebody else as well as to the Member who had made the representations. If this is the case I would be very worried. I do not know whether others follow the same line as I, but in my years since 1961 as a Member of the other House and as a Member of this House I have continually dealt directly on all occasions with either Ministers or their private secretaries. I would be very perturbed if I thought that the reply to a letter of mine addressed to a Minister of any Department or to a private secretary would be given to somebody else even before or after I had received the decision. If such is the case, and certainly I have no doubt about what Senator Butler said, I would be very perturbed.

The other question that I want to raise here is the actual role of the ombudsman which is quite clearly stated by the Minister. Let us take as an example a case where a Member of the Oireachtas is dealing with individual cases, say, in relation to the Department of the Environment. We as Members of the Oireachtas have experienced great difficulty for some time past, and over the past few months in particular, in making representations in regard to payments of grants which people are entitled to and payment of which, for some unknown reason, is delayed. Would the ombudsman have any function in ensuring that such matters are speeded up? I do not refer to grants alone but to old age pensions or social welfare benefits where there are delays. I am fully aware that in large Departments mistakes can be made. People who were entitled to something may not actually know their rights and they are quite entitled to come to a Member of the Oireachtas. It is our job to look after them. But in such cases I wonder what the role of the ombudsman will be.

These are just a few points that I wanted raised. But what particularly disturbed me is the fact that if a Member of the Oireachtas is dealing directly with a Minister or his private secretary, the information in the reply would go to some other individual as well as to the person who has made the representation.

I thank Senators generally for their very positive welcome of the Bill and for the various comments they made on its provisions. By and large these have been very useful comments. Certainly I will consider many of the suggestions made about publicity, and so on. The basic purpose of this debate is to examine what Senators consider to be the defects in the Bill. It is quite clear from the tenor and the composition of the contributions from both sides—and, indeed, all the contributions were excellent—that there is very little controversy about the Bill. The Bill has been given considerable thought. When it leaves the House it should be a good and effective one. Many points were raised by Senators during the debate and I should like to try to deal with them as they arose.

Senator Cooney spoke about what one could describe as the history of the ombudsman. He talked about the consistent lobbying over a number of years for the office and he posed some questions. He asked what the position was about the ombudsman's office in other countries, and particularly in New Zealand. Possibly he picked New Zealand because it has a legal system and population somewhat akin to our own. It was also the first English-speaking country to adopt the system. Since October 1962 there has been an ombudsman in office in New Zealand. From the outset the ombudsman covered all areas of central government. It is a measure of his success that in 1968 his remit was extended to provide limited jurisdiction over local education and hospital boards and that, in 1976, his jurisdiction was extended further to cover local authorities. It can be seen from that, that the office of ombudsman in New Zealand would appear to have been a distinct success. It has served as the model for ombudsman legislation in the English-speaking and/or common law countries which have embraced the concept. It is the model for all Canadian provincial ombudsmen and for ombudsmen in Australia.

Senator Cooney and a number of other Senators said the Bill did not provide penalties for obstruction of the ombudsman or for any other reason. The whole basis of the work of the ombudsman is co-operation and goodwill. His success will depend almost entirely on receiving the co-operation and the goodwill of all those he comes into contact with, both those making complaints and those who are the subject of the complaints. If he had to resort to the big stick of legal sanction, I feel it would be a measure of his failure. In any event, it should be borne in mind that in most cases the person complained of will be a public servant and it would be unthinkable that his superiors would look kindly on the commission by him of an illegal act and, under the Act, obstructing the ombudsman will be illegal. The complainant himself would, of course, have a vested interest in having the investigation carried out fully, and would have no reason to obstruct or hinder the ombudsman. In short, the ombudsman works by co-operation and goodwill and we would be reluctant to introduce a penal code into the legislation.

Senator Cooney and a number of other Senators asked who can approach the ombudsman. The Bill does not require the complainant to be personally affected by the matter complained of. Therefore, a personal representative could approach him. Senator Cooney asked if somebody had passed away could somebody else raise a matter on his behalf, or continue the complaint to the ombudsman. That personal representative could be deemed to have sufficient interest in the matter and, accordingly, the ombudsman would take up the case. I would also point out that the ombudsman has the power to initiate an investigation on his own initiative. This is an important addition to the legislation here which does not exist in other areas. If his attention should be drawn to a case by a representative of a person, he can pursue the matter himself.

The question of TDs and Senators bringing complaints to the ombudsman was also raised. We did not favour the system, as it exists in the United Kingdom, where complaints must be channelled through Members of Parliament. However, it is felt that a TD, a Senator, or a county councillor would have the right to bring a complaint to the ombudsman on behalf of a constituent. It could be said there is some disagreement and some people feel a TD should not have that right at all. I honestly feel that, in our situation, a TD should have the right to bring complaints on behalf of constituents to the ombudsman.

Senator Brennan hoped that all semi-State bodies, both commercial and non-commercial, would eventually be subject to investigation by the ombudsman. Non-commercial semi-State bodies can and will be brought in, when the time is appropriate. The Bill provides for making orders accordingly. I will refer now to a number of complaints made by Senators in relation to the non-inclusions in the Bill. As I said in the Dáil, and also here, the Government and I have no vested interest in excluding any of these bodies. We would like to see the office established, we would like to see it working, and we would like to see how it evolves.

Could I also say that the all-party committee—I make no apology at all for going back to the all-party committee; it sat for a considerable length of time—examined closely the operation of the ombudsman in other areas and, in their wisdom, some people now say or otherwise, they brought in certain recommendations? We tried to comply consistently with the recommendations they made. They recommended that commercial State bodies should not be included for the reason that these commercial bodies are expected to be commercially viable and in competition with private sector bodies which are not themselves subject to such investigations. We prepared and drafted the Bill on the basis of all the points raised by the all-party committee.

Senator Harte raised many interesting points. He talked at considerable length about civil rights. That question will have to be taken up on another day. Many of the instances he referred to would not be matters for the ombudsman. He suggested that the fact that people knew of the ombudsman's existence would lead to an increase in the number of complaints. The opposite could also be true. The mere existence of an ombudsman—and this matter was touched on also by Senator Whitaker—would also be a deterrent. Public servants would be anxious not to run foul of the ombudsman. The irony of the situation is that the success of the office may lead to a significant reduction in the number of complaints. When knowledge of the ombudsman's work spreads, public servants will act that little bit more carefully to ensure that their actions do not give rise to complaints.

The Senator has raised one other important point which may not have anything to do with the Bill, and it is the question of the way certain forms are laid out. Quite a number of the problems in relation to both the civil service and to people who are complaining against them may arise out of the way forms are compiled. I will have a look, in so far as it lies within my ambit, at the way certain forms are framed to see if they can be simplified so that people will have a much easier job in completing them.

Senator Brugha welcomed the Bill and generally was satisfied with it. He also touched on the question of what powers the ombudsman would have. The greatest power he will have is the fact that he will be there, that he will be a deterrent. He will not have any legal powers as such. Neither has the Comptroller and Auditor General, and it is held that the existence of the Comptroller and Auditor General is a great deterrent. Some of the points Senator Brugha raised concerned exemptions. These were gone into at the time by the all-party committee. This is one of the reasons why the Bill has been drafted so closely to their recommendations.

Senator Hussey welcomed the Bill. She and some other Senators found a difficulty in the name. She complained that the word was unsuitable. Senator Murphy and Senator Mulcahy also had certain qualms about it. All I can say is that the word is accepted internationally. The office has spread to at least 25 countries and apart from the United Kingdom the term "ombudsman" is more or less universally used. The all-party committee gave considerable consideration to the name of the office, including the possible use of an Irish title, but favoured the term "ombudsman" because of the widespread, worldwide acceptance and ready understanding of the term. She also raised the question as to why the Adoption Board were excluded. The main reason is that the Minister has no control over the actions of the Adoption Board.

Senator Goulding referred to the all party-committee and to the fact that a considerable amount of investigation and consultation had gone into the preparation of the Bill. I would like to thank her for her remarks. In the Dáil a considerable case was made that local authorities and health boards should be brought in quickly. At that stage the intention had been to bring them in inside a year. We took into account the volume of representation. We took into account also the amount of contact which the ordinary individual had with the health boards and with the local authorities. We decided to take them in immediately, but after consultation with various staff organisations and so on it was decided that it should be done after three months and I reiterate that intention now.

The point was raised by Senator Robinson that sometimes with the best will in the world we can give guarantees. In so far as I am concerned that guarantee will be fulfilled.

Senator O'Brien welcomed the Bill. He felt that it would do much to get rid of the belief that people are being victimised. The history of the ombudsman in other countries would tend to reinforce Senator O'Brien's belief. The number of complaints that have been investigated and the number of decisions given are very few in relation to the general talk about the inadequacy or otherwise of our public administration. He felt also that it would generate more confidence in the administration, and I agree with him. The fact that the ombudsman is there will not lessen the job of the TDs or Senators, much as we would like to see that done.

The question was raised of a Department sending a letter to somebody stating that no application was in while at the same time a Government TD informed the person that he was getting the grant. I cannot see this happening. I cannot see a Department deliberately telling an applicant one thing and telling somebody else another thing. This is another case of the point raised by Senator Brugha, dúirt bean liom go ndúirt bean leí. Any Department who would leave themselves open to a charge like that would be very very foolish. Whatever you may say about omissions I do not think that any Department can ever be accused of deliberately misleading anybody, and that is what that would be.

I will deal with the question raised by some other Senators towards the end. It is something I feel very strongly about, having suffered under it for a number of years.

Senator Dowling raised a number of questions. He asked if civil servants will feel threatened by the existence of the ombudsman. I do not think they will. There have been long and very detailed discussions with the unions representing the various civil service grades. The unions have not raised any objections in principle to the operation of the ombudsman, and that shows that they feel that they have nothing to hide. He also raised the question of whether the ombudsman will deal with cases that are years old. The Senator can rest assured that he will not. Only cases which arise after the commencement of the Act will be examined and after that there will be a 12 months' time limit. He also raised the question raised by some other Senators as to whether a civil servant can bring complaints about promotion to the ombudsman. The answer is no. Personnel matters for civil servants are excluded completely from the Bill. Relations between employer and employee are not appropriate for investigation in this form. He raised the question of a military ombudsman and other Senators felt that the military should be taken into the ambit of the existing ombudsman. Generally military ombudsmen exist exclusively in countries where the army is a conscript one and because through its vast size it has an effect on the daily life of the citizen. I do not think this is true of the situation in Ireland.

Senator Robinson welcomed the Bill in principle. She quite rightly told us that we should possibly be concentrating on the amount of power the ombudsman has. She quoted some problems, particularly in relation to the prisons and the Garda, and asked what bodies were being included in the undertaking I gave. There is a group of bodies on page 15 of the Bill, local authorities, county committees of agriculture, vocational educational committees, old age pension committees and sub-committees and harbour authorities scheduled to the Harbour Acts, 1946-76. She and other Senators put a lot of emphasis on the question of publicity. I fully agree. When the ombudsman is appointed this will presumably be one of his top priorities. His first task will be to let people know of his existence, what complaints can be made and how they can be made. The success of the office will to a great extent depend on the degree of successful publicity undertaken in the first year of his office. I will draw to the attention of the Government the wishes of many Senators that the Government should undertake a publicity campaign in relation to the office of ombudsman.

Senator Robinson raised the question of adequate funding. This matter was raised by other Senators, including Senator Markey. I suppose all of us would like to have control over our own offices and to take on the number of staff we felt are necessary. However, the office of the ombudsman will have separate Vote, as is the case with the Director of Public Prosecutions. It is not possible to say at this stage what the exact size of this Vote will be. However, I can assure the House that the amount of the Vote will be adequate for the ombudsman to be fully independent in carrying out all his functions.

Senator Robinson and other Senators also raised the query as to whether hearings should be held in public with the media present. I would like to go into this in some depth. This point was also raised in the Dáil. It was always the intention of the Bill that the hearings should be held in private. In my view, any attempt to hold hearings in public would introduce an undesirable element of confrontation. The ombudsman will require co-operation, not confrontation.

He will have a much better chance of getting co-operation if the hearings are held in private. The introduction of public hearings could involve the ombudsman in formal judicial-type sittings. The main aim of the Bill has been, and is, to provide the ordinary citizen with an independent and easily reached mediator. That means that the key notes of his office will be informality, speed and accessibility. The introduction of public hearings would not assist, in my view, the ombudsman to meet these criteria.

The question of adequate staffing was also raised by Senator Robinson. The Minister for the Public Service is the person responsible for staffing. In so far as it is in my power, I will ensure that staffing is adequate. Of course, consultations will have to be held with the ombudsman, but I can assure the House that the institution will not fail from lack of back-up staff.

Senator Robinson raised the question of whether a civil servant can make a complaint. Yes, a civil servant can make a complaint not related to his official post, for example, in relation to planning permission in respect of his dwellinghouse. Civil servants and all others are excluded from making complaints about personnel matters. This is something I have explained before. Senator Robinson also raised the question of representation. I think I replied to that when I was answering Senator Cooney.

She also raised the question of the position of prisons. I am sorry if it appeared that my Second Reading speech was complacent. I certainly had no intention of being complacent. However, it is my firm belief that there are reasonable rights and appeal procedures available to prisoners. Whether they are adequate will depend on the person's point of view—I suppose from a prisoner's point of view they are not, from others' they probably are. Prisoners retain their full statutory and constitutional rights, except the rights of which they are deprived as a consequence of their loss of freedom. Prisons are operated under the statutory Rules for the Government of Prisons, 1947. Prisoners have the right of appeal through, first, the Governor, second the Minister for Justice and, third, the statutory visiting committees. The latter are independent bodies appointed for each prison under the Prisons Visiting Committees Act, 1925. Fourthly, they have the courts and, fifthly, the European Court of Human Rights. Experience is that prisoners constantly avail of these avenues of appeal. Furthermore, appeals to the court by way of habeas corpus, mandamus and other applications are allowed at State expense, and the Court of Human Rights may also allow an applicant's costs. It is fair to say that this is something which has been aired in the Dáil and here on many occasions and all Ministers for Justice have been satisfied that the prisoners have adequate means to redress grievances, and their suggestions for further appeal procedures have been resisted. There was a strong case made also for the inclusion of the Garda. Deputy Kelly had an amendment in the Dáil which I could not accept.

Could I again come back without apologies to the all-party committee? That committee sat for approximately two years and they felt that the Garda Síochána should be omitted from the provisions of the Bill. I am not going to cover again the issues of the security dimensions or the fact that actions of the gardaí are subject to the scrutiny of the courts. By the very nature of their duties the gardaí are in many instances in conflict with individuals.

Senator Robinson and other Senators raised the question as to why certain semi-State bodies were excluded. For a start Departments only, that is, central administration, are included. The commitment I gave today and in the Dáil is that local authorities and others will be included. Semi-State non-commercial bodies will be brought in, as appropriate, by order but this is as many Senators have said, a new idea. Let us not clog up the ombudsman's office in the beginning. Let us give him a chance to get the office started. Let us then see what the position is and then consultation can be held with the ombudsman. It has been said here and in the other House, and it is the experience of all of us, that delays are one of the greatest causes of grievance and frustration to an individual. If we are going immediately to set up an office that will receive so many complaints that these delays will recur, then all we will be doing is an injustice to the office of ombudsman. Neither I nor the Government—and I do not think anybody here or in the Dáil—has a vested interest in leaving out certain bodies. All I am saying is to give it a chance. Let us see how it operates and then have a look at it in a year's time.

Senator Jago raised the question whether the health boards may complain against the Departments. The answer is no. Nobody in the schedule can make a complaint against another body in the schedule. This is for the ordinary individual, not really for organisations who may have some case for a dispute among themselves. Community associations can bring complaints in so far as the ombudsman can hear test cases. Senator Jago also raised the question whether a complaint can be taken against people acting on behalf of a Department, for example, the Department of Health. The answer is no. The definition of Department in section 1 (3) makes it clear that the complaint can only be made where the action was taken by the Department themselves.

Senator Murphy had the same reservation as Senator Robinson in relation to prisons and to the Garda. I am sorry if I gave an impression of blandness; the Senator can rest assured that it was not meant. I would like to thank him for his introductory remarks. When we were preparing the brief I felt that the Seanad should get a picture of the Ombudsman Bill and also what actually happened in the Dáil. There was very little point in bringing in a Second Reading Speech to the Seanad the same as the one that introduced the Bill in the Dáil when there had been certain amendments made which will show the Bill in a different light.

Senator Murphy also spoke very strongly about publicity. I can only reiterate what I have said before about it. I will put the points raised here to the Government. I agree with the Senators who said that there is very little point in bringing in legislation if people do not know about it. I will put their views very strongly before the Minister and the Government. Senator Murphy quoted Senator Harte when he talked about the ordinary people being bewildered. Although Senator Harte may have used stronger language, that was refuted by Senator Whitaker. I do not think that Senator Harte in any way meant the words to have the same meaning as they normally have but in the words of the song many people are bewitched, bothered and bewildered in their dealings with some of the public service. I am not going to get into an argument between the Senators about the sex aspect of the name of the Bill. It was well dealt with by Senator Harney and Senator Murphy.

Senator Whitaker brought his vast years of experience in the public service into the Chamber. I am glad that he has no reservations at all about the principle of the Bill. As he said, it was given very careful thought. I feel it was improved by the amendments that were made in the Seanad. I am not saying that it cannot be improved still further but I am saying we should give it a chance. He also was very adamant that publicity is necessary and he drew attention to the fact that complaints can be made to the ombudsman in relation to the inaction of a public servant just as well as to the action of that servant.

Senator Whitaker talked about harassment, intimidation and oppression and also about integrity. The civil service, like any other body, is composed of very many different types of individuals, the vast majority of whom are carrying out their functions very well. However, we are inclined to put on the heads of all the faults of the few. We are guilty of the sin of generalisation more particularly in relation to the civil service than anywhere else. Like Senator Whitaker, I am not satisfied at the progress of civil service reform but that is a matter for another day.

Senator Harney also welcomed the Bill which she felt was urgently required. Without having the actual details of the case she raised, it would appear that this is the kind of matter that the ombudsman could investigate.

Senator Markey was very disappointed and so was I. He complained in relation to Northern Ireland and gave certain figures. These figures will be taken from the Complaints Commissioner and a separate office of ombudsman has been set up specifically to deal with local authorities and health board matters. In the North of Ireland there is a separate ombudsman for dealing with central government administration. The ombudsman does not have to wait to make a yearly report. If he feels strongly enough on any point he can make an immediate report to the Houses of the Oireachtas. Senator Markey complained of the Ministerial veto in section 5 (3). Taking into account the type of person indicated, he or she will not see this ministerial privilege being abused. I would think very seriously—and, indeed, any Minister would—before asking the ombudsman to stop an investigation into any matter and would have to have a very grave cause. This was the only way in which the Bill could be drafted to get round a recommendation made by the all-party committee. It was all right in 1977 to go by the recommendations of the committee in relation to a lot of things. However, I do not want to delay on this point. Senator Markey also raised the question of interference with travelling and subsistence expenses. There will be no undue or unjust interference there. The Minister for the Public Service is the Minister responsible for fixing the general rates of travelling subsistence throughout he civil service, which rates are revised from time to time. I dealt briefly before with the Senator's suggestion that it should be open to anyone to employ a solicitor to defend him. The ombudsman's investigations will be done, in the main, by examination of files, discussions with officials and correspondence with the complainant and so on. We should keep away as far as possible from this question of a judicial-type arrangement. Senator Markey also raised the question of why the Minister appoints the staff. The staff do not necessarily have to come from the civil service, but once they are appointed they become civil servants and the law requires that they be appointed by a Minister of the Government.

Senator Mulcahy, while generally welcoming the Bill, made one or two inquiries. He asked whether the ombudsman could deal with structures. The answer is that he can. If he finds a case to be justified and if one of the reasons for the maladministration related to some deficiency of structure, then the authority would be there to refer to this deficiency. The Senator also raised the question as to whether non-civil servants can be appointed. They can, but once they are appointed they become civil servants.

Senators Butler and Governey raised the question of representations by Opposition Deputies to secretaries of Departments and the answers coming back to the Deputies and Senators of the Government Party. I can only speak for my own Department and that does not happen there and will not. A number of questions have been asked in the Dáil recently of all Ministers in relation to this specific matter. All of us, when in opposition, suffered from the illusion that this was happening. In my own case, it did happen but only happened with a small number of Ministers. I have no evidence that it is happening now and in relation to my own Department I can say that it does not happen and will not happen.

Senator McDonald, while welcoming the Bill, felt that the cause of major complaints lies at times with the local authorities. The Senator instanced cases where people lack sympathy and understanding and talked about a different reception he got when he appeared in a different cloak, so to speak. He also raised the question as to whether legislation would follow the enactment of this, similar to the legislation which followed the establishment of the office of Director of Public Prosecutions. I do not think so. In relation to the matters the Senator complained of, it all depends on whom you meet and the humour they are in. All of us at times are not in as good a humour as we should be when people come to see us. We should take that into account when we are discussing civil servants or anybody else.

I again thank the Senators for the manner in which they met this Bill and for the suggestions they have made. I recommend it to the House.

Question put and agreed to.
Agreed to take remaining Stages today.
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