On section 1, has the Minister any idea when the board propose to draw this extra equity?
Gas (Amendment) Bill; 1980: Committee and Final Stages.
Question proposed: "That section 1 stand part of the Bill."
It is not equity, it is borrowings.
I am sorry I misread the Bill. I thought there was provision for extra equity as well. When is the borrowing supposed to be taken up?
As needed. The first part may have to be taken up fairly shortly after the Bill is passed, I should imagine in early 1981. It is anticipated at the moment that £1.3 million would be borrowed in 1981 and that the balance of the additional £5 million would be borrowed in following years.
Do the board borrow from commercial banking sources?
Yes.
Question put and agreed to.
SECTION 2.
Question proposed: "That section 2 stand part of the Bill."
May I ask the Minister a question on this section which is identical to sections of this kind in all sorts of other Acts? Has the Minister ever run into difficulties raised by people who were relying on Ministerial guarantees as to whether at the time of the giving of the guarantee he has kept within the limit imposed by the legislation? Something which I have talked about in relation to other Bills is that there is no provision which would enable a lender to say "There is a statutory sentence there on which I am relying": in other words, that if the Minister gives a guarantee he should be deemed in the case of any borrower relying on it to have given it within the ambit of this section. Perhaps the Minister would deal with that point.
Although this is a matter I would have to check, I would imagine that in giving the guarantee, the Minister probably includes in the document a certificate to the effect that he has not exceeded the statutory limit and that this guarantee now given, together with previous outstanding guarantees, will not cumulatively exceed the statutory limit.
Probably that is the best that can be done in existing legislation, but the question is there as to whether the Minister has the power to do that. We have imposed a limit on the Minister and said he is not to guarantee more than £35 million. The Minister in certifying that he is giving a guarantee would not help the borrower if the amount being guaranteed were in excess of the power which the Minister must get from the Houses of Parliament, or else this section would not be there at all. It is obviously not a matter which flows to the Minister by virtue of his appointment as Minister under the Ministers and Secretaries Act. Speaking from one experience of many years I came across a case in which they were right up to the limit but nobody thought of it and then legislation was put through to deal with it. I have thought that the form of legislation on this point could be improved. I am not pressing the Minister for an amendment on this particular section, but if it occurs in other Bills he might keep it in mind.
I suppose my Department are more involved in these matters than the Department of Energy and I will ask them to have a look at it. We can rejoice in the fact that the institutions which lend these large amounts of money are usually able to afford the most expensive and learned of lawyers who can prevent them falling into these pitfalls——
And whose advice they sometimes do not take.
Question put and agreed to.
Section 3 agreed to.
Title agreed to.
Bill reported without amendment, received for final consideration and passed.