Seanad Éireann debate -
Thursday, 5 Nov 1981

Vol. 96 No. 6

Joint Committee On The Secondary Legislation Of The European Communities: Motion.

Mrs. G. Hussey

I move:

(1) That it is expedient that a Joint Committee on both Houses of the Oireachtas (which shall be called the Joint Committee on the Secondary Legislation of the European Communities) be established consisting of—

18 members of Dáil Éireann and 8 members of Seanad Éireann (none of whom shall be a representative in the Assembly of the European Communities)

(a) to examine

(i) such programmes and guidelines prepared by the Commission of the European Communities as a basis for possible legislative action and such drafts of regulations, directives, decisions, recommendations and opinions of the Council of Ministers proposed by the Commission,

(ii) such acts of the institutions of those Communities,

(iii) such regulations under the European Communities Act, 1972 (No. 27 of 1972), and

(iv) such other instruments made under statute and necessitated by the obligations of membership of those Communities as the Committee may select and to report thereon to both Houses of the Oireachtas; and

(b) to examine the question of dual membership of Dáil Éireann or Seanad Éireann and the European Assembly and to consider the relations between the Irish representatives in the European Assembly and Dáil Éireann and Seanad Éireann and to report thereon to both Houses of the Oireachtas;

(2) That provision be made for the appointment of substitutes to act for members of the Joint Committee who are unable to attend particular meetings and that members of either House, not being members of the Joint Committee, be allowed to attend meetings and to take part in the proceedings without having a right to vote;

(3) That representatives in the Assembly of the European Communities, who are also members of either House, be notified of meetings and be allowed to attend and take part in proceedings without having a right to vote;

(4) That the Joint Committee, previous to the commencement of business, shall elect one of its members to be Chairman who shall have only one vote;

(5) That all questions in the Joint Committee shall be determined by a majority of votes of the members present and voting and in the event of there being an equality of votes the question shall be decided in the negative;

(6) That every report which the Joint Committee proposes to make shall, on adoption of the Joint Committee, be laid before both Houses of the Oireachtas forthwith, whereupon the Joint Committee shall be empowered to print and publish such report together with such related documents as it thinks fit; and

(7) That five members of the Joint Committee shall form a quorum of whom at least one shall be a member of Dáil Éireann and at least one shall be a member of Seanad Éireann.

In moving this motion I propose to say a few words about the background to it. The Joint Committee on Secondary Legislation of the European Communities was first established in 1973. It is dissolved when the Dáil and Seanad are dissolved and must be re-constituted by Orders passed by each House of the Oireachtas after a general election. In this case the motion comes to the House first, and I should like to pay compliment to the sense of urgency rightly conveyed through the Senators that the Joint Committee should be established, and in particular to Senator Quinn and Senator Robinson.

One of the results consequent upon our joining the European Communities was that we adopted a new legal order. This means that in areas of Community competence, Community law takes precedence over national law. The implications of this development are far-reaching. It was decided, therefore, that a Joint Committee should be set up to examine Community legislation, and to supervise the implementation of such legislation in Ireland. This gave the Oireachtas an opportunity to influence the formulation and implementation of Community legislation. I understand that of all EEC countries Denmark is the only other country with such a mechanism. The Danish committee has slightly more powers than our own Joint Committee has had but, nevertheless, the principle behind the foundation of the Danish committee is the same as our own Joint Committee and it does very valuable work.

The terms of reference of the Joint Committee, as formulated in 1977, give it authority to examine Community legislation at three stages in the process of its adoption. It may examine legislation at the draft stage, and thereby aid the Government in deciding our attitude during negotiations. Secondly, it may examine Community Acts, and consider how best our obligations thereunder should be implemented. And finally, it may examine ministerial regulations made under the European Communities Act 1972, and instruments, made under other statutes, in order to implement our Community obligations. The new Joint Committee will consist of 18 Members of Dáil Éireann, and eight Members of the Seanad, thus totalling 26, which is the same number as its predecessor.

The Joint Committee has done very useful work since its inception in examining Community legislation. This is a formidable task when one considers the volume of legislation emanating from the Community. Much of it is of a highly complex and technical nature, which makes the task even more demanding. The Joint Committee select for examinaation those draft Acts which they consider of particular importance to Ireland, and they examine all statutory instruments made to implement Community laws. Reports, to the Houses of the Oireachtas, are then prepared on the measures examined by the Joint Committee, and some are debated by both Houses. During the last session, 94 reports were prepared by the Joint Committee, nine of which were considered by the Seanad. Of the nine, two were also considered by the Dáil. They were debated separately, making a total of 11 occasions on which reports of the Joint Committee were considered by the Oireachtas. The motion which is before the House today will establish a new Joint Committee, which will, I am sure, continue the good work of the two previous committees.

When constituting the Joint Committee in 1977, the Government took into account the recommendations which the first Joint Committee made in its 55th Report, published in March 1977. That report examined the function and performance of the Joint Committee and suggested possible changes to improve the workings of future Joint Committees. Amongst the recommendations taken on board in 1977 were, provision for the appointment of substitutes to act for members who are unable to attend particular meetings, and provision that Members of either House of the Oireachtas, though not members of the Joint Committee, be allowed to attend its meetings and take part in proceedings, without having a right to vote. The proposed terms of reference for the forthcoming Joint Committee remain largely the same as in 1977, a reflection of the fact that most of the initial difficulties were identified between 1973, and 1977 and then resolved. The previous Joint Committee worked very well and the Orders of Reference were found to be satisfactory, apart from two recommended changes, which I shall presently set out.

Before the 1979 European elections, Members of the Oireachtas were delegated as members to the European Parliament, and were ex-officio members of the Joint Committee on Secondary Legislation. This latter arrangement was not, in practice, a success, and the terms of reference of the Joint Committee appointed in 1977 expressly stated that Members of the European Parliament would be precluded from the membership of the Joint Committee. They would, however, be notified of meetings, and be allowed to attend and take part in the proceedings without having a right to vote. In a report of March 1980, the Joint Committee recommended certain amendments to its Orders of Reference taking cognizance of the fact that the Assembly is now a directly elected body. It recommended that the phrase which provided that "delegates to the Assembly of the European Communities be notified of meetings and be allowed to attend and take part in the proceedings without having a right to vote", be amended to read that "representatives in the European Assembly, who are also Members of either House of the Oireachtas" have the privilege set out above. This change has been incorporated in the motion before the House. Its effect is merely to formalise an existing state of affairs, namely, that members of the European Parliament are no longer appointed by the Dáil, apart from those filling casual vacancies, but are elected by direct universal suffrage.

The other change recommended by the Joint Committee, namely to delete the phrase which precludes members of the European Parliament from membership of the Joint Committee, has not been adopted. Rather, the whole question of the relationship between MEPs and the Dáil and Seanad will be examined by the Joint Committee. Provision has been made for this by an addition to the terms of reference of the Joint Committee, which gives it a mandate, "to examine the question of dual membership of the Dáil or Seanad and the European Assembly, and to consider the relations between the Irish Representatives in the European Assembly and the Dáil and Seanad ...". The Government consider that the Joint Committee, which has already touched on aspects of this question of the dual mandate, and the overall relationships between the Oireachtas and the European Assembly, is an eminently suitable forum for a further and more detailed examination of this matter.

Mr. E. Ryan

I would like to welcome the setting up of this committee. The committee have shown their worth in two periods. There is no doubt at all, having regard to the amount of work which they had to do, of the necessity for this Joint Committee. It is more than ever necessary at present. The importance of the operations of the European Community is becoming more and more apparent for this country and it is absolutely essential that there should be a Joint Committee of this kind to examine the proposals, various pieces of legislation, regulations and so on passed by the Community. It is important that we should have a committee of this kind to examine these, to make recommendations on them, to examine how they should be put into operation in this country and, where possible, to try to have them altered in some way if they appear to have ramifications for this country which are undesirable.

It is interesting that there is a proposal on this occasion to examine the question of dual membership. This should be examined. Some of the parties have made up their minds about it, but it is no harm to ask this Joint Committee to examine it and make recommendations on it. As time goes on this Joint Committee will, formally or informally, find their terms of reference being expanded more and more. The committee have a pretty big membership, but not too big. I was on it for some time and even with the number of members provided for it was often very difficult to get a quorum to get the work done, so that even though it appears to be a rather big committee, neverthless it is necessary to have the membership which it has.

It is only right that we should pay tribute on this occasion to the vast amount of work which was done by the committee during the past four years. One of our former Members here, ex-Senator Alexis FitzGerald, was the chairman for most of that period. A very good job was done by him and his committee. It was a very hard working committee which got through a great deal of work. I have no doubt that the incoming committee will have just as much to do. I also have no doubt that they will do it just as well.

Mr. Ferris

I join with the previous speakers in welcoming this motion. The Leader of the House has said that members of my party, particularly Senator Ruairí Quinn, were most anxious that this committee would be set up without delay because it is obvious that many reports continually arrive from the European Community which need the urgent attention of this committee.

I would like to join with previous speakers in complimenting the former committee members who have put in such tremendous and dedicated work with little thanks, particularly from the public, because much of this work takes place behind closed doors with no appreciation by anybody of the amount of work involved. The size of the committee is important from the point of view of getting a quorum because when there is work requiring immediate attention it is imperative to have a reasonably large committee of the Houses.

The question of the examination of the dual mandate, which is mentioned specifically, is important. It is at present the subject of discussion inside and outside this House. I am more concerned that the committee would look at the present situation in regard to members of the European Parliament directly elected or nominated as the result of casual vacancies and who are not Members of either House here. It is ludicrous that people with no access to the Houses of the Oireachtas should represent Ireland in a forum as important as the European Parliament. It is important for the committee to turn their attention to that aspect soon to ensure the maintainance of the link for members of the European Parliament who are not Members of either House, to allow them to participate in this committee, even without the right to vote. That should be looked at as a matter of urgency.

The motion is welcome and I hope that the committee will be set up with all due speed and urgency.

Mr. Quinn

First, I would like to thank the Leader of the House for expediting this matter. As the House is aware, I asked that this be brought forward as soon as possible. Indeed, we have brought it forward in advance of the other House. I recognise that some class of precedent may have been set and I appreciate the way in which the Leader of the House has persisted in getting it on to the Order Paper and getting it moved tonight. I would like to join with the sentiments expressed by Senator Eoin Ryan, the leader of Fianna Fáil in this House. His membership of that committee contributed a lot of wisdom to its deliberations and he subsequently left us for the committee on State-sponsored bodies, the setting up of which I will be asking to have moved at the next meeting of the Seanad.

The terms of reference are pretty much the same as before with one exception, that is, the question of the dual mandate. It has become somewhat topical and, indeed, something of a political football in this House, particularly so far as Fianna Fáil are concerned. It needs to be re-stated that it was Fianna Fáil who brought in the European legislation which provided for the dual mandate. The question of dual mandate was discussed in advance of the drafting of that legislation and the Minister for Foreign Affairs at that time, and his colleague, the Minister for the Environment, Deputy Barrett, introduced legislation in the clear knowledge that the dual mandate was going to be a political reality here. In furtherance of that legislative choice made by Fianna Fáil at the time of the five successful MEPs, four were TDs and the fifth was a former TD. The fact that Fianna Fáil are now in the position to be able to claim that they are against the dual mandate is as much a consequence of the actions of the electorate both before and after polling day as it is of any sudden conversion by the Republican Party to the virtues of the dual mandate.

The House should be clear that what has arisen in relation to the present situation vis-à-vis the European Parliament and these Houses is something that has evolved rather than consciously chosen. In the heat of the political debate over the re-nomination under Fianna Fáil legislation of substitutes to fill vacancies in the European Parliament, we may perhaps have lost sight of the real argument and issues involved in the question of representation at the European Parliament. I hope, that under this particular term of reference, the committee will not just look at the question of the dual mandate but will, by logical extension, look at and recommend to the European Parliament and indeed to our MEPs a system of European election that would be applicable to all of the ten member states, because it is within the system of election that the problems which we in our domestic politics experience the conflicts of a dual mandate. Only well known public people will be selected by the parties to carry the banner in elections where the constituency is the size of a historic province like Munster or Leinster, excluding Dublin. In the nature of politics that person will inevitably be a TD, perhaps a Senator, and more likely, if not a TD, then a former TD.

I hope that in future debates on this committee the present debate will perhaps be cited as reference to enable us to expand discussion of the dual mandate so that we may make recommendations directly to the European Parliament and the Houses of the Oireachtas on the form of election of members of the European Parliament that would operate not just in this country but in all of the ten member states. It is quite probable that by that stage it would possibly be at least 11, probably 12.

I warmly support this motion, and welcome the contribution that Senator Eoin Ryan made. I thank the House for giving me the opportunity to clarify the points in relation to the dual mandate and I wish to acknowledge the extraordinary co-operation and assistance that we got from the permanent secretariat attached to the Joint Secondary Legislation Committee in this House. They were untiring, extremely dedicated in their work and very conscientious in ensuring that every paper that emanated from the Berlaymont and from the Parliament generally was offered to us in some shape or form. If we could burn all of them collectively we would have no energy crisis. The secretariat kept us well informed, and they provided a model for the kind of permanent standing committee that this House should have in other areas of our political activity. I would like the record to show that in re-appointing and re-establishing this committee the ongoing work of the permanent secretariat was recognised, acknowledged and thanked.

The Dáil was dissolved in May, the general election was in June and the Seanad was subsequently dissolved. I am not sure procedurally why it would not have been possible to have as a matter of course enabling motions such as this and such as the semi-State body and others would be, moved sooner. The harsh reality of political life is that this committee will not effectively get down to do its work until after Christmas and that, in real terms, means the middle fortnight in January, six months after the election. I do not frankly think that people who were affected by prospective instruments of the Community which will affect their business, as we saw over the last four years, can afford to wait for that self-imposed constraint which we as politicians impose upon ourselves. I thank the Leader of the House for expediting this matter and ask that all the other enabling motions which will go to establish such committees will be brought forward as soon as possible. Otherwise I do not think that we can claim honestly to the public that we are doing our job properly.

Mrs. McGuinness

I should like to join in the welcome for the setting up of this joint committee, also the extension of its terms of reference to discuss the dual mandate. However, while the necessity to discuss the dual mandate is there, it is not perhaps quite as important as the ordinary work of this committee, which is of extreme importance. The fact that it does not get a lot of publicity, partly because of its technical nature and partly because the committee is not one that is normally reported a great deal, does not detract from its actual importance.

The decision to enter the European Community has meant a basic and very fundamental change in our whole legislative and legal system in that we are now taking in all this external law in the form of regulations and directives and so on of the European Community which have an extremely important effect on our trade, commerce, industry, on our ordinary legal system, the way we run our companies and so on. It is all too easy for us to let this slide past and not realise that this is becoming a practical and real part of the way in which our country is governed. So I am inclined to feel that, important though the dual mandate is, the actual day-to-day work of the committee in monitoring the European legislation is by far the most important thing that they can do.

I would like to join Senator Quinn in paying a tribute to the work of the permanent secretariat. I was a member of this committee only for a short time at the end of the last Seanad, and sometimes their devotion to producing all the documents was inclined to make one feel that one was being snowed under by such mountains of paper that one would find very difficult to read all of what was necessary of them.

Nevertheless there is no doubt that their work was extremely conscientious and that all the material was always provided for members of the committee and the various sub-committees. So I would indeed like to join Senator Quinn in paying a tribute to them, knowing that their work will continue at the same high level for the present committee.

I would also like to join in the hope that the other joint committees will be set up quickly. I should like to ask the Leader of the House if there is a proposal that a joint committee of the Oireachtas be set up on development co-operation with particular reference to the Third World. I would be anxious that this should be set up. In the last Seanad we had a long and very valuable debate on the Brandt Report and the relationship between the Third World and the various other power blocs. This is of extreme international importance, and it would be well worth while for us to move forward quickly into the setting up of this joint committee.

Mr. W. Ryan

I welcome this motion and hope that its passage through this House will be very fast and that the committee will be set up as soon as possible. I would like to join with the other speakers in congratulating the outgoing committee on their work during the past four years. I want to speak briefly about the dual mandate.

Senator Ferris gave the impression that this suggestion might entail members of the European Parliament having access to this House, of which I am in favour. The members of the European Parliament should be allowed to speak in both Houses on matters concerning the EEC. The new committee should take a very serious look at the fact that there could be members of the Dáil or the Seanad in the European Parliament. I certainly do not believe that that is fair to either House.

Senator Quinn more or less accused Fianna Fáil of being responsible for this set-up, but I want to point out that before the European elections took place it was made very clear by the Fianna Fáil Party to our candidates that, if successful, they would not be candidates again for the Dáil or the Seanad — or even for a county council, or any local authority. As a result, we found it difficult enough to get candidates to stand for the European elections at that time, because many people felt that their place was in the Irish Parliament.

We probably suffered in that particular election due to not having the best candidates but when the last general election came around, we stood by that decision. Our people who were elected to Europe were not allowed to stand either for the Dáil or the Seanad. It has turned out to be very awkward for the Government, because their people are in Europe and we are not prepared to pair with them. We made the right decision. They could have made the same decision at that time, which would have avoided all the existing problems. I maintain that you cannot be a member of the European Parliament and a Member of the Dáil or Seanad and give the service expected by the people who have elected you to either House. When the committee discuss the dual mandate, I hope their decision will be that you should be a Member of one parliament only.

Mr. Manning

I, too, welcome the speedy establishment of this committee. Not having been a Member of the House before I did not participate in the committee. Looking at it from outside, it was a model of what a good parliamentary committee should be. Its work, which over the past number of years has been effective, has not perhaps, been properly appreciated outside. Having read the reports and watched the committee in action, I would like also to pay tribute to the work of previous chairmen, from Deputy Haughey right through to the last chairman of the committee.

On the question of the dual mandate, I am very pleased that this is included in the terms of reference. All parties at first dodged the question of the dual mandate. In fairness to Fianna Fáil and Senator Ryan I can say that of all parties, partly through circumstances, partly through policy, they have had to face up to it more squarely than the other parties.

I would remind Senator Ryan that there was one exception to the general rule in the last election. The electorate, in fact, perhaps, endorsed the rule in their own way by not returning that member of the European Parliament to the Dáil.

Mr. W. Ryan

That member would have had to go had she been elected.

Acting Chairman

Senator Manning, without interruption.

Mr. Manning

However, this is not a satisfactory situation for the Houses of the Oireachtas, for the parties in these Houses, or for the European Parliament. The net effect of the continuation of the present system is that the Houses of the Oireachtas and the European Parliament will be brought into disrepute. The referring of this issue, which affects all parties, to this joint committee should ensure that it will be discussed in a sober, rational, non-party way, and that before the next European elections some agreed formula — I hope it will involve the end of the dual mandate — will be reached so that we will not be faced with some of the difficulties which face us at present.

I compliment the Leader of the House for the speed with which she has had this committee established. May I join with Senator Quinn in hoping that the work of this committee will get off to an early start?

Mr. Staunton

I would like to join in the welcome for this motion. I know a little about this committee because I was a member of the first Oireachtas EEC committee in the 1973-77 period of Government. It has been doing excellent work. I would like also to join in complimenting the active members of this committee for their work since it was founded. It is an extremely difficult business, as many present Members will know, to serve responsibly on committees of the Oireachtas. Much responsible work is done about which the general public do not have any knowledge. Responsible Members of the Oireachtas are continually running a risk so far as their parliamentary careers are concerned. A short cut can always be taken by not participating in committees such as this and by playing to the electorate at all times, where votes are concerned, the shortest cut, presumably, to being reelected. This is a risk and a hazard to anyone working on committees such as this. I have the highest of admiration for those who have been participating and I compliment them on the work they have been doing.

The motion proposes certain sensible and significant changes where the committee is concerned. These have really resulted from the workings of the committee and from the fact that since the committee was initially established we have had participation in the European Parliament, as a result of direct elections. There are national issues concerning the relationship of Members of the European Parliament with the Oireachtas, in the first instance, and also issues concerning the dual mandate which are important and must be faced up to.

Taking the matters in the motion in sequence, we know that it is one of the functions of the committee, and will continue to be, to go into the question of draft legislation, to look at the actual Acts, to go into the issues of ministerial regulations and instruments. It is my experience that whilst the committee did an excellent job in addressing itself to these regulations and to draft legislation, there was a tendency at times for the committee to sit through all this legislation without an entirely discerning eye. It would be very useful if some type of sifting process took place under the auspices of the chairman of the committee, so that the committee, in spending its time looking at draft regulations, Acts, ministerial regulations and instruments, to a large extent concentrated on the issues which were of specific Irish interest. That is very important. There is the danger, in going through the wide-ranging draft legislation and regulations, that more time can be spent than is necessary in the interests of the Oireachtas, on areas which do not relate either to Ireland's specific interest economically or, even in a broad sense, to Irish participation in issues concerning, say, olive oil, or the wine issues in southern Italy, or Greece, or Spain, or the south of France. Many of these matters are superfluous to us and a better sifting out might be done there.

I welcome the section of the motion which seeks to examine the relationship of the members of the Assembly of the European Parliament with the Oireachtas in general, because there has to be some linkage there from the point of view of the Oireachtas and the members of the European Parliament. It is also very sensible that members of the European Parliament be advised of meeting of this committee and be free to attend such meetings. It is obviously very useful. They have an input, there can be question and answer from members of the EEC committee in so far as members of the Parliament are concerned. It is a sensible approach. I welcome, too, the review of the dual mandate that is to take place.

There are one or two other issues that have not been referred to in this debate that are very important. I welcome, in particular, the section in this motion which proposes to give to Members of the Oireachtas, other than those who are to be appointed to this specific committee, the right to attend meetings of the committee and to participate, though not to vote. That is important because EEC membership is more critical for this country than it is for most other countries within the Community. There will be a very limited participation within this committee. There will be a range of specialist knowledge available among many other Members of the Oireachtas who will have something to contribute and something to take from the deliberations of this committee. The right to attend, then, is important.

I welcome the proposal in this motion to allow for the substitution of members. From the point of view of specialisation, with the limited membership that will be on this committee from the various parties, there will be issues coming up from time to time at meetings of this committee which will relate specifically to areas in which Members of the Oireachtas may be in a particular position to contribute, possibly to a greater extent in some circumstances than the actual members of the committee.

I support the view that the committee should look at issues concerned with development and co-operation. We are a relatively poor country. It is natural, politically, that the primary interest of Ireland in EEC membership will be to look to what we can take out the the EEC and that we will look to see the greatest extent possible to which we can be nett beneficiaries of the EEC funds. There where problems recently relating to that. Apart from that, there is the wider issue of Ireland's contribution to the EEC, the contribution we have to make to Europe and the contribution as members of the EEC which we have to make to the Third World. These broad issues have to be taken into account in addition to the question of the narrow Irish interest in the Community. I support the motion.

Mrs. G. Hussey

I would like to thank Senators very much for their contributions to the debate which are extremely useful. I hope they will be studied by the people who find themselves members of that committee. It was inevitable, of course, that the entry of the dual mandate clause into the motion would be referred to. Of course the dual mandate, apart from being examined inside and outside this House, as Senator Ferris said, is also being examined by the European Parliament. I agree wholeheartedly with Senator McGuinness when she asked that we should not lose sight of what really is the basic work of the committee which is to examine EEC legislation as it applies to Ireland.

Senators did not refer to the number of reports from the last joint committee which were debated in this House. I find the number of nine disappointingly small, I hope this new committee will ask for many more of their reports to be given the wider airing of a debate in this House. It was mentioned that the hard work of the committee was very often unknown to a wider audience and that Senators and Deputies who became members of the committee found themselves attending to other work because they found their work with the joint committee not rewarding in electoral terms. May I suggest that one method of making sure that the work of that committee is known and appreciated would be for that committee to take the step of allowing RTE's microphones into its full sessions.

I was very interested indeed in Senator Willie Ryan's suggestion that MEPs should be invited to speak in this House. That idea did not come from Senator Ferris. He was referring to MEPs at the joint committee. The idea put forward by Senator Willie Ryan is extremely interesting in terms of any strangers coming to speak in this House. This should be examined by appropriate committees of the House.

I do not intend to speak any longer on this. I want to thank everybody for expediting this motion. I hope that the deliberations of the committee when it is set up, which I hope will be sooner than Senator Quinn's rather depressed prognostication, will be as amicable and as speedy as the acceptance of the motion to set it up.

Question put and agreed to.