Seanad Éireann debate -
Thursday, 19 Nov 1981

Vol. 96 No. 9

Social Welfare (Temporary Provisions) Bill, 1981: Second Stage.

Question proposed: "That the Bill be now read a Second Time."

Minister for Social Welfare (Mrs. E. Desmond)

This Bill provides for a double week's payment to recipients of weekly long-term social welfare payments in December 1981. There is no commitment or obligation on my part to make the double payments but I fully appreciate the difficulties facing pensioners, in particular, who comprise, in the main, the elderly, the chronically ill and the widowed and I hope that this bonus will enable them to have a more comfortable Christmas.

The payment of a bonus such as this in a year in which the weekly payments have already been increased twice — in April and October — is, indeed, without precedent. The provision of the October increase, and now this double payment, demonstrate the Government's commitment to those dependent on social welfare payments.

Under this Bill, the extra week's payment will be given to those receiving old age pension contributory and non-contributory, blind pension, widows' and orphans' pensions (contributory and non-contributory), retirement pension, invalidity pension, survivors' benefit, deserted wife's benefit and allowance, social assistance allowance for unmarried mothers, prisoners' wives and single women and occupational injuries disablement pension and death benefit by way of pension.

A double week's payment will also be given to those in receipt of disabled person's maintenance allowance, infectious diseases maintenance allowance, blind welfare allowance and domiciliary care allowance for handicapped children, all of which are administered by the Department of Health.

Some 375,000 recipients and their 121,000 dependants will benefit from the double payments at an estimated cost of £12.5 million. This includes the cost, estimated at £0.75 million, of a double payment in health allowances, which I will be providing for by regulations.

The additional payment will generally be made at post offices on the appropriate day of payment of pensions, benefits and allowances in the second week of December. Old age, blind, widows' and orphans' pensioners will be due payment on Friday, 11 December and the other categories on Thursday, 10 December. In the case of certain long-term recipients of occupational injuries benefit by way of pension who are paid by cheque monthly in advance, the additional week's payment will be made in their December cheques.

I feel confident that this Bill will commend itself to all Senators, and I ask for its early passage to ensure that the payments can be made in time.

Mr. T. Hussey

I welcome the Minister and congratulate her on her appointment to the offices of the Minister for Health and Minister for Social Welfare. I welcome this Bill. I am very happy that the Minister has followed in the footsteps of her precesessor, Deputy Woods, who last year initiated this policy of giving a double week's payment to recipients of social welfare and all the other benefits she has outlined here this morning. At a time when people, particularly those on fixed incomes, are hit so hard by rising prices and all the other difficulties with which they have to cope, it is only right and proper that these categories be compensated in this way.

The Minister has mentioned a number of people will qualify for this benefit, those in receipt of a disabled person's maintenance allowance, the infectious diseases maintenance allowance, blind welfare allowances and domiciliary care allowances. Will the people who are getting the allowance for the purchase of coal be taken into consideration, or could there, perhaps, be an extra allocation for those people? I am thinking of the old age pensioners who are living alone and who last year got £90 for the purchase of coal. Is there any allocation for those people and, if not, perhaps the Minister would give favourable consideration to that matter?

Mrs. G. Hussey

I would like to join with Senator Tom Hussey in welcoming the Minister to this House, and in wishing her well in her very important responsibility. I would like to make the passing remark that it gives me extra pleasure to welcome a distinguished woman to this chair where we usually expect to see a man. I hope that it will become a regular and unremarked on event in the very near future that women come into this House as members of Government. I believe there is some relevance in the connection between the lack of women in politics and the list of recipients of the benefit before the House today. On that list it is notable that there are so many categories of women who find themselves in very large numbers among the weakest and poorest in society. In this connection I would mention widows, deserted wives, unmarried mothers — about whose tragic circumstances we have heard and read today — prisoners' wives and single women. It is a commentary on society that so many women find themselves in this category of the poorest and weakest. The advent of a distinguished woman to this post will help to correct the balance in our public affairs.

I welcome the Bill as I am sure all Senators will. It is perhaps very fitting that this Bill should come at this stage in our deliberations on the Finance Bill, having heard so much discussion yesterday about the difficulties of redistributing a limited income, to give maximum benefit to all. We have, in Ireland, this very dramatic dependency ratio which is the highest in Europe and which places extra stresses and strains, unknown to even the most beleagured economies of our western European neighbours.

I was interested to hear recently that the French have a major controversy in debate raging about what they call le trou, the hole — the shortfall between revenue and social security payments. This is the cause of enormous concern to them. We have holes in Ireland which are much deeper and more difficult to fill. There is no doubt that in Ireland the social welfare structure places enormous strains and obligations on the Exchequer. We must, of course, face up to a very simple fact which lies behind this Bill, that Christmas brings to many of us an extremely happy time where there are loved families and loving children and where people very much enjoy a family occasion. This very happy family occasion puts a nearly intolerable pressure on those who face into the season in very weak circumstances compared with what they see all around them and on their television screens in sickening variety, detail and frequency. At the very least, we owe them an extra effort at Christmas.

I find it depressing to hear claims of virtue by either side in dispensing this provision. The Minister present certainly does not want to find herself claiming to be anybody's fairy godmother. I suspect she would never venture down that road at all, had not somebody else claimed to be everybody's Santa Claus. That sort of claim and counter claim does no one in politics any credit at all and, in fact, takes very much from the dignity of politicians and of the people to whom we are giving this Christmas present.

I do not want to sound very virtuous. I am a politician and know the temptations. We should, perhaps, remind ourselves that the real virtue in giving is never to expect any thanks. We all know that politicians do not deserve any thanks for finding a small gesture to make to those who do not receive this largesse because they want to receive it. They would prefer not to be in the sad list of categories which the Minister had to give us at the beginning. I hope that we would all give an assent to this Bill and, when doing so, remind ourselves that it is a very small gesture at this time of very great economic stresses. The Minister, the Opposition side and all of us, I am sure, would prefer it to be not only a bigger piece of largesse but also much more extensive, applying to many more categories. However, the realities of the situation being as they are, it is not possible to do that.

Finally, when discussing the Finance Bill, we are engaged in trying to plan policies and programmes which will have the net result, in the end, of allowing us to extend to the poorest and weakest a far bigger share of a far bigger national income. I hope that this Bill will be passed with a very warm welcome.

Mícheál Cranitch

A Leas-Chathaoirligh, ar an gcéad dul síos cuireann sé ard-áthas ar fad orm fáilte a chur roimh an Aire. Tá sean-aithne agam uirthi. Is bean an-éifeachtach í agus is bean an-chairdiúil í. Bíonn leas na ndaoine bochta sa phríomh-áit aici i gcónaí, agus guim gach rath ar a cuid oibre. Fáiltím leis roimh an mBille.

I welcome the Bill, particularly because—as they say—of the time that will soon be in it. Christmas has a special significance for all Christians and even for non-Christians. People are at their very best during the holy season. This Bill is a very nice, Christian, kind and charitable gesture and I am sure that it will be appreciated by everybody who is in need of such a gesture.

As stated in the Minister address, 375,000 recipients and their 121,000 dependants will benefit from this double payment, whose estimated cost is £12½ million. I am sure that all of us in this House and all of the taxpayers who make this possible will say from their hearts that it is £12½ million very well spent. It will be appreciated by those who receive it. They want it in these hard times and it will make Christmas that bit better for them. Maybe, it would act as a stimulus on the wealthy people throughout the State who could, indeed, open their hearts a little more towards the poor, especially at times such as Christmas.

I happily welcome the Bill and wish it a speedy passage through this House.

Mr. Ferris

I join with previous Senators in welcoming the Minister to this House. She has been a distinguished Member of this House in the past. It is an added pleasure to welcome her back in her role as Minister for Health and Social Welfare, on her first day in the House as the bearer of good tidings for the underprivileged section of our community who, especially at this time of the year as already mentioned by other Senators, are subjected to the economic winds that blow. It is a real tragedy that so many people in our community are, in fact, subjected to the winds of the economies that most of us try to take in our stride and have other ways in which to compensate ourselves. Unfortunately, these weaker sections of the community have very little with which to defend themselves.

It has been a welcome feature of national wage agreements over the past number of years that people such as these are written in as a protected section, irrespective of those who work for a living and are capable of working for a living. These, who have given up their lives and their services to the community, need somebody like the Congress of Trade Unions to ensure that their interests are also protected in any national schemes or agreements to protect our people from the ravages of inflation.

The Minister in her statement has intimated that the number of beneficiaries under this Bill will be in the region of half a million people. Recently, the Minister re-initiated the welcome setting up of a special poverty committee to deal with that subject. This will be chaired by Sister Stanislaus, who is one of the foremost social workers in this country, a person for whom I have the greatest admiration and with whom I have had the honour to serve on a health board. Sister Stanislaus recently produced statistics showing that there are one million people on the poverty line in this country. Any Government or Opposition that can sit back and feel that they are doing sufficient when they allow so many people to get into this economic state would really want to ask themselves are they or are they not attacking the problems of this society in a Christian way.

I know that the Minister, in line with the previous Coalition, has re-introduced the system of twice-yearly increases for social welfare recipients. This must be welcomed. I was very sorry that it was dropped as a practice to be built in to budgeting in this country, because there is no way that these poorer sections of the community can survive from the beginning of the year to the end of the year with just one increase. When you are at a very low level of income, as these people are, it is impossible to survive when inflation continues to be rampant and when the cost of the ordinary means of livelihood become very difficult to acquire. Fortunately, with the introduction of food subsidies they can be protected in some way, but at Christmastime food subsidies and all the other assistances are not just enough to make Christmas that little bit more beneficial to them. For that reason, it is a very welcome innovation that they should have this Christmas grant or bonus to ensure that life for them at that holy season, that Christian season to which we all look forward, will this year be a little more enjoyable than if they were depending on their normal incomes.

I am please, too, that it has been extended, as the Leader of the House has said to many categories who, in the past, tended to be treated as second class citizens in our society. There are many areas of legislation, in housing and otherwise, in which these people are treated almost with disdain. I have on my file at the moment a case of an unmarried mother who I consider to be a family unit with her child and the question asked by the local authority if there is a man living with her in her house almost impinges on her privacy. If that is the way we treat people, and if we have people quietly talking about and against contraception, divorce, abortion and all the other things that are being talked about readily every day, it is a pity that we almost drive people in this underprivileged category into shame, or out of our country, when they are faced with the problem of rearing a child and trying to get a home over its head. I will be taking up this matter in another place because it worries me that we treat people in the underprivileged sections like this.

I am glad that the Minister, in her first visit to this House, is the bearer of good tidings. She certainly will have the warm welcome of all Senators on all sides of the House for this welcome legislation.

Mrs. McGuinness

I would like to join other Senators, particularly in welcoming the Minister to this House on her first visit here as Minister. As the Minister knows, I have known her career over many years and it gives me particular pleasure to welcome her. I feel sure that she will fill her office with her customary commitment, intelligence and distinction. Like Senator Gemma Hussey, I am particularly glad to see a woman sitting in the Minister's seat.

This Bill is also extremely welcome to us, in the prospect it offers in giving some people in receipt of social welfare payments a better time during this Christmas period. Certainly, as a Christian, I am sorry that Christmas has become so commercial a season in the sense that it should seem that money is the most necessary thing that one must have at Christmas, because I do not feel that this is really what Christians should be about. Nevertheless, it is undoubtedly true, in our society, that the pressure on the purse of the housewife, as one knows only too well, is tremendous and there is a very real need for this kind of payment and I welcome it very much.

Senator Tom Hussey mentioned possible anomalies and that, hopefully, something could be done to help the fuel situation. Indeed, having seen investigations of this fuel scheme carried out by the National Social Services Council and other bodies, I would ask if the Department might possibly consider having a new look at the whole scheme. As we are speaking of these beneficiaries of social welfare, there are quite a number of small anomalies in the social welfare system which would not, in fact, cost a great deal for the Government to remedy. We, in the National Social Services Council, now the National Social Services Board, sent a list of these possible anomalies to the Department under the aegis of the previous Minister. I hope that the present Minister will have a chance to look through them and try to see if they can be corrected.

Altogether, the problem of poverty in this country and the problem of the need for social welfare help is a very grave one. As Senator Gemma Hussey has pointed out, it is made that much more difficult by the fact that we have such a large ratio of dependent people as compared with people in employment.

Senators like myself, I am sure, will have received one of the OECD magazines which set out a graphical representation of this dependency rate and there is no doubt that we have, among the countries of western Europe, a very high proportion of people, both in the young age group and in the elderly age group, who are bound to be dependent on those who are productively employed.

While we have these very large problems of poverty and social need, we have also a very difficult time in trying to solve them. All of us, whether in the Government or out of it, will have to realise that a certain amount of patience is required in trying to solve them. Commitment has been shown in setting up the Poverty Organisation again and in trying to do something about this situation. I certainly welcome the Bill before us today.

Mr. A. O'Brien

In common with Senators who have already spoken, I welcome the Minister for Health and Social Welfare and congratulate her on her appointment. I am confident that she will bring a caring approach to the Department of Health and Social Welfare that will benefit the people for whom her Department mostly cater. It is a very nice gesture at this time to introduce a scheme for double payment to the less privileged people in our society.

Christmas is a time when people, in general, who have forgotten throughout the year, perhaps because they are so preoccupied with their own cares, worries and responsibilities, at Christmas try to make up for the neglect of those who are less fortunate in society. They often try to make amends by helping the less privileged during that time. It is a good thing that a Department of State act in the same way. It is especially welcome because of the difficulties caused by the cost of living and so on that confront these people. It is an especially noble gesture coming from the Government at a time when financial resources are constrained. Apart from the amount of money that each of these recipients will receive—money which will help them to enjoy Christmas in a better way than they would have otherwise—the gesture of the Minister in making this allocation will remind them that they are not forgotten. One of the greatest worries and annoyances people in the under-privileged classes have is that they think that they are forgotten by society. The fact that many of them are, in addition, lonely aggravates their condition. A gesture of this kind coming in the Christmas season will remove this worry that they are forgotten by society and will, on that account, increase the benefit, in so far as it will lift their morale and give them the understanding that society, in general, does care. I would like to compliment the Minister on this welcome gesture and express the hope that, as time goes on and the present financial difficulties are tackled, gestures of this kind will be made in a bigger way, that more money will be given and that, perhaps, the scope of people cared for will be enlarged. I join with other Senators in welcoming the Bill.

Mrs. Honan

I would like to welcome to the House Minister Desmond and congratulate her on her appointment. I will be quite brief and thank the Minister sincerely on behalf of the mentally handicapped children of this nation. Already since her appointment she has shown particular concern. This is the year of the disabled and we have had much publicity and coverage, but maybe from January on the Minister might take another look at the matter. I appreciate that they have got a lot in the past 15 to 17 years but there is still much to be done. I sincerely thank the Minister on their behalf.

Mr. Byrne

Ba mhaith liom i dtosach fáilte a chur roimh an Aire agus, mar aon leis na Seanadóirí eile, a rá go nguím rath Dé ar an obair atá roimpí.

This Bill is very welcome because it provides for the less well-off section of our community. There is really no obligation or commitment on the part of the Government, unlike this time last year when the commitment was enshrined in the national understanding. For that reason it is very welcome indeed and it indicates the priority afforded by the Government to the less well-off sections.

We can be certain that there is general agreement in accepting this Bill, and this change is welcome, because we are dealing with people who, as the saying goes, have no real clout in society. When we are coming to the holy season of Christmas it is only right and proper that we should do more here today than just talk about a transitional handout which will benefit them for a short period. We should rather reflect on the conditions of these people and ask ourselves whether we as a society are doing enough for them. Those of us who are reasonably secure financially often through the pressures of living seem to forget the conditions in which many of our people have to live. The recent report on the level of poverty in this country certainly shocked us and should make us more eager to assist people in that category. We all know lonely old people living alone in deplorable housing conditions, and it is amazing how they can live at all with the allowances they are getting. We all know of widows trying hard to bring up a family; we know of people who are chronically ill and the conditions that they have to live in. We should concern ourselves more about providing not only financial assistance but all the other types of assistance to which they should be entitled.

We are talking here in terms of an extra £30 or £40 on average to households. Those of us who are in the habit of spending money from time to time know well the small amount of goods one can buy today for £30 or £40. Nevertheless I hope the recipients of this double payment will appreciate the gesture on the part of the Government and will see in it an indication of the Government's concern to alleviate their problem.

I would agree with my colleague in Galway, Senator Tom Hussey, that it would be a good idea to increase the allowances for free fuel. I know in a time of financial constraints that it is increasingly difficult to talk about spending extra money, but a warm fire is possibly the greatest solace an old person can have. With the cost of fuel today it is an area which I would ask the Minister to examine.

I would also like to put a question mark on the whole area of unemployment assistance. Let us be honest and straight about it. If we have our eyes open, we must agree that there are serious abuses in this area. There are people who could get work and who are prepared to live their life on the dole and the nixer. This is having a very serious effect on the moral fibre of a large section of this community.

An Cathaoirleach

I am sorry, but that does not come within the scope of the Bill.

Mr. Byrne

If this problem were solved we would have more money available to provide a greater bounty to the people who really need money at this time of the year. I thank the Minister for bringing forward the Bill.

Mr. R. Kiely

I join other Senators in welcoming the Minister to the House and I wish her well in her appointment. I would also welcome any legislation introduced to help the elderly, the chronically ill and the widowed. I am speaking because of my concern for widows under 66 years of age who are not entitled to free electricity. Frequent increases in electricity bills make it more difficult for them to live. They receive only £29 per week and I am sure the Minister is aware how hard it is for these widows to live on such a small allowance. Therefore I welcome this Bill and I would like to see legislation introduced to help the widowed and all those in need of benefits.

Mrs. Bolger

It gives me great pleasure to welcome this Bill initiated by our Minister for Health, Deputy Desmond. I am extremely proud of her achievements to date and of the Minister of State, Deputy O'Flaherty. She has clearly shown to the whole of Ireland her great concern and her understanding in this serious area of health and social welfare. This Bill giving a double week's benefit for Christmas to all long-term social welfare recipients is an indication of the Minister's commitment to the less well-off in our society. This has brought a little bit of joy and happiness into those far too many poor homes in this country, and I would suggest that this will merely help to put a better meal on the table for the week of Christmas. We are all grateful for the Minister's concern. I look forward to the day that the Irish economy will be in a position to pay this amount to them the whole year round.

We can look forward to great progress in the social welfare area. In time I hope the Minister will see her way to the reduction of the old age pension age and complete the good work which was started by the previous Coalition Government. I would like to thank the Minister for expediting the payment of social welfare benefits since she took up office. There has been a tremendous improvement. I hope in time she will be able to speed up the disability benefits where there is still some delay which is causing great hardship to some people.

The Minister in her short time in office has shown that women have the ability not only to serve but to lead. I look forward to the day when more women will be in similar positions in this country. I wish the Minister well in her continuing fight to aid all the underprivileged sections of the community.

Mr. McAuliffe

I want to bring one point to the notice of the Minister. There are disabled people who are not on invalidity pensions. I am referring to people who have to retire because of ill health, perhaps suffering from multiple sclerosis, Parkinson's disease or severe arthritis. They continue for long periods to submit medical certificates because they would be taxed on an invalidity pension. The former Minister promised to give this matter consideration and I hope this Minister will consider it when the budget is being prepared. These people will not be eligible for the double payment this year and did not receive it last year.

The Bill is welcomed by this House and by the people.

Mr. Lanigan

There is no doubt that anybody who has any sense of fair play would agree that the provisions mentioned in this Bill should be approved. Every time I speak on a Social Welfare Bill in this House I ask that something be done to personalise the Department of Social Welfare. The bulk of the constituency work which most of us do concerns people who have no money. As Members of the Seanad we know we will get a cheque in the post on a certain day every month. If our cheques did not arrive we could live but the person who does not get a social welfare cheque on a Thursday morning has to go to the local shop and look for credit.

I am not criticising the present Minister for this situation. I am criticising the system right through the years. The system is not working for the person who does not get a cheque on a particular day. A double week is a bonus, certainly, if the cheque arrives. If the cheque does not arrive that person is already committed to extra purchasing and cannot go back to that shop the following week if the cheque does not arrive.

I suggested in the Seanad that there should be a regionalisation of social welfare services. If a person in Kilkenny wants to know what exactly his position is, he should be able to go into the local office and find out what is happening. We were told a computer was installed and that computer has been blamed for many things over the past ten years. Apparently there are few people in the Department of Social Welfare who are capable of telling a computer what to do. It is very easy to put a terminal from a main computer into any area in Ireland. I am in favour of giving the people on social welfare benefits what they need on a particular day. A cheque should arrive on the day it is supposed to arrive.

Much has been said by certain people about the fact that we in Ireland are not a caring society. We had a poverty conference recently in Kilkenny. One would get the impression that the Minister and the legislators of this country do not have any consideration for the people who are underprivileged in society. I do not think that is a fact; we do care. Any legislation such as this will be welcomed by every side of the House. It is not the legislation that fails, it is the application of the legislation.

I appeal to the Minister to try to personalise her Department and ensure that a person in Kerry, Donegal, Cork or wherever who has no money can be helped. There is a series of letters floating between her Department and every public representative in the country about people who have not received cheques. An acknowledgement comes back from the Department in ten days and in 21 days there might be a reply but the person still has not got any money. The Department of Posts and Telegraphs, the Department of Social Welfare and the Office of Public Works are shovelling paper around. The amount of paper which is shifted around in the Department of Social Welfare is unbelievable. The Department's telephone number must be the most used and abused telephone number in the country. There is not a social welfare recipient who does not know that number. To try to get an answer when you dial 786444 is just ludicrous. If you were trying to ring somewhere in the Bahamas or Africa you would get a quicker reply. I am not criticising the people who run the switchboard. It may be that there are too few people or that the system is antiquated. If there is nobody on a switchboard at a particular time, why cannot an answering system be installed so that when somebody rings up the message can be recorded and a reply received? A very simple answering system would do that job.

I am appealing for a personalisation of the Department, a system where there is at least an acknowledgement to the person who is ringing that something is being done. The appeal I make is not a political appeal; it is an appeal for people who have nothing. I would sincerely hope that the Minister would take that into account.

Mr. O'Connell

I should like in speaking to this Bill to dissociate myself in a courteous, parliamentary and disciplined fashion from the remarks of the Leader of the House when she said that the presence of a woman in the Minister's chair was something that she did not expect and regarded with some surprise. I would feel that quite the contrary should be the case, particularly in the person of such a distinguished public representative as the Minister.

I would like to welcome the Minister and to welcome this Bill as an indication of the Government's commitment towards what are commonly called the social welfare classes. It is heartening on an occasion like this to see that all of us in this House should be united in our wish to go some way towards meeting the needs of these people. The word "people" is appropriate here.

This is a short Bill and there are not many words in it but a great part of the Bill as it is printed is taken up with a list and there might be a temptation for some of us, and others who may read that Bill, to regard it as an administrative and bureaucratic document setting out a number of categories. Obviously for administrative purposes these categories must be named and listed. We must remember that behind those categories and beyond that list there are individual people with individual problems. All of us as public representatives know that in each case which will be dealt with by the Department and by the agencies of the Department there is not just one problem but there is a set of problems. In each of these instances there is what you might call a nexus of problems.

I would like to associate myself with the remarks of Senator Lanigan when he pleaded for a greater humanisation and a greater personalisation of the operations of the Department. We all appreciate the difficulties under which the Department operates, but there are many ways in which the Department could become more personal and from her record I would expect the Minister to give this task a very high priority.

One of the significant and almost shattering points that came out of the Minister's speech was the fact that this Bill is designed to address the needs of very nearly half a million people. That so many people should come into these categories and come within the compass of this list in a country as small as ours is something that should give us some food for thought.

One of the temptations in this area is to feel that by allocating a certain amount of money, by increasing a certain amount of money, by having a balanced book and fiddling with the figures a little bit, we are meeting the problem sufficiently. This is associated with an attitude of charity. In no way do I want to cast any aspersions upon the charities that exist or upon the charitable feelings and actions of a great many people. Quite the contrary, because if those charities did not exist, if the voluntary unheralded and unchronicled work did not exist and if ordinary people were not prepared to give their time, their energy and their own resources towards trying to help people who are in need, then we would be in a very poor way indeed. However, it seems to me that sometime in the not too distant future we will have to consider as a community how we are to change our society so that this kind of need does not exist or at least that the differences that exist may be so small that they do not require some radical reform.

Reference has already been made here and elsewhere to the disparity which exist between the resources and the spending habits of some sections of the community on the one hand and the resources and the spending necessities of others. It has now become a kind of sick competition to try to cap stories about the price of a meal for two, three or four in an expensive restaurant. The latest figure I heard was that one could get an adequate meal for two at a price of £65.

Reference has already been made to the fact that Christmas is a time at which these disparities between people become more obvious. I feel very strongly that there are very few occasions when the feeling of a mother and father confronted with the task of trying to provide some kind of festivity for the occasion is never more emphasised than at Christmas, when the entire efforts of the commercial world are concentrated on trying to rid people who have too much money of a little of it, and when the mother and father of the family who are not so well off find themselves confronted with a massive contrast. We must move, as we already moved to a certain extent but not nearly enough, towards a much greater consciousness of our social responsibility and the need for a much more rational and moral and Christian set of priorities. In this context I do not think it is irrelevant to say that if we were not burdened with the expenditure that arises out of the trouble in the North, if we did not have to meet that drain on our resources that runs through every feature of our life, we might consider what more we could do next Christmas for the people who are in need.

It is also not irrelevant to suggest that as we move into the pre-Christmas season of Advent, as we prepare as Christians to welcome the advent of the Christ Child who came with only peace and justice in His heart, we should think of those families where last Christmas there was a father or a brother or a son or a nephew or a relation or a friend or a neighbour who will not be there this Christmas because some of our fellow countrymen believe that they have the right to murder and maim in our name.

Mr. Lanigan

I am sorry to come in again, but because we are on a Social Welfare Bill I think that things concerning social welfare should——

Acting Chairman (Mrs. McGuinness)

The Senator may speak once only on the Second Stage. Does the point arise on Committee Stage?

Mr. Lanigan

Does it make any difference?

Acting Chairman

You cannot be called again on the Second Stage. You can come in on the Committee Stage.

Mr. Fallon

I welcome the provisions of this Bill. I see it as an outstanding practical Christmas box for the 375,000 recipients. They are the most vulnerable people in our society, they deserve to be looked after, and last year when it was introduced by Deputy Woods, it was most welcome indeed. Once it was established, it must be continued by the Government of the day. There are many reasons, of course, why this bonus should be given, but the most practical reason is that they are people who are not well off, they should have more funds and I know that every successive Minister for Social Welfare would like to see more and more going to them. My hope would be that their lot will be improved dramatically over the years ahead.

The personalisation and humanisation of the Department has been advocated. I, too, as a public representative, find that it is very difficult to get information. Possibly because there are so many people in receipt of social welfare, the system is becoming clogged up. I am not saying it is the fault of the present Minister—it has been there for years—but I hope a greater personalisation, humanisation of the Department will take place.

We are talking of people who most need our help. This of all Departments, because of the people they serve, should be the one with the most human touch. I would be failing as a public representative if I did not support the Bill, which I do with pleasure.

Mr. J. Harte

First of all I welcome the Minister to the House, particularly because of the type of Bill she is bringing in. Knowing the person, I have no doubt that most of the other legislative measures to come from this Department will have similar strength.

In welcoming the Bill—there has been great harmony in the debate — it must go on the record that it caused some concern to read about the shortfall in the budget Estimate of January 1981, not as published by the Government but as published by political economists and so on. We were concerned as to whether we would be able to meet the provisions of a Bill like this. Those of us who knew the Minister very well knew that no stone would be left unturned to see that this became a reality, not only that the people who benefited last year would benefit again, but other categories as well.

I am delighted to see that we are all in such wonderful harmony on it. There is no point in going over all of the points made. It is necessary, however, to say that it is a wonderful atmosphere to be in, with everybody agreeing. Many of us who have contributed to the debate share a lot of the guilt over the years for the plight of the social welfare recipients and indeed the million people who are on the poverty line. It is a very nice change to see everybody welcoming this handout to them for Christmas.

In concluding, I welcome the Bill, and if the people who are concerned about the real changes in social welfare and so on can convince their supporters to give the Labour Party a majority in a future Coalition Government, we will put manners on both sides and the people will get what they are entitled to.

Minister for Social Welfare (Mrs. E. Desmond)

I sincerely thank Senators for the very warm welcome they have extended to the measures contained in the Bill. The welcome was in the main to be expected, but it exceeded my expectations in its warmth and the general acceptance of the measures, indeed the generous lack of criticism of possible provisions which the Bill does not contain. This was evident in Senators' speeches. I thank the Senators who welcomed me to this Chamber this morning and assure them that I have had many happy memories of this Chamber. I am particularly glad to be back with a measure of this nature. Senator Harte said he hopes that each future measure that I will bring before the House will be equally welcomed. I hope so too.

I would like to deal, in order so far as I can do so, with the points made by Senators during the course of the debate. Senator Tom Hussey was the first Senator who spoke, and the point he raised was taken up by Senator Byrne. It was in relation to some special provision for the purchase of coal and fuel during this Christmas season. I am not sure what Senator Hussey was talking about but I assume he was talking about the free fuel scheme. He mentioned a sum of £90 which would appear to be the aggregate of the amount paid in respect of free fuel to each of those who qualified over a period of 30 weeks, assuming they were paid at a rate of £3 per week during the winter of 1980-81.

I should like to make the point that that £3 has now been increased to £4 and therefore the £90 now becomes £120. I accept that the free fuel scheme as it stands is not yet adequate to meet the needs of those who have to depend on it. Before announcing the increase to £4 we had already in hand a review of the whole free fuel scheme. It was not appropriate that we should hold up the payment of the £4 pending the culmination of that review, but I assure Senators that the review is going on and will be completed very shortly. We are very conscious of the fact that the scheme needs extension and improvement and we are trying to devise a scheme that will be an extension and an improvement of the existing scheme.

Senator Gemma Hussey laid particular stress on the position of women's societies and the fact that women in the main are condemned to live on a lower rate of income than men and that women figure largely in groups dependent on social welfare for maintenance. Of course this is a long argument which we have often had in other places and which is a reflection on our society and the attitude society has had towards women generally. It is also reflected in the discrimination against women that still exists in the whole social welfare code, a discrimination which gradually is being eliminated. Because of the EEC requirements, it will have to be eliminated to a greater degree in the future. I commit myself as the Minister responsible to make a speedy elimination of the remaining elements of discrimination that exist against women in the social welfare code.

Another point which Senator Gemma Hussey, Senator O'Connell and others made is in relation to claims of virtue for having introduced this measure. I accept that point completely and I am very glad it was made. It is not something for which we should seek virtue, or haggle about who was initially responsible or how the scheme came about. The aim of the scheme is to bring some measure of comfort at Christmas to the most needy section in our community. It is manifest in the House this morning that Senators on all sides are agreed that it was a worthy thing to do and that it is something we should try to improve in the future if we can.

Senators Cranitch, Ferris, McGuinness, Burke and others made the point about general redistribution of wealth in our society. This is something a number of us have been obsessed with since coming into public life. Many people who fall into the social welfare net are victims of society and of policies invented not by the Department of Social Welfare but many economic Departments, housing, education. There are people who have not got adequate housing in the first instance and who have not got adequate education or adequate recreation, some of whom will never have an opportunity to get out of that net.

That brings us back to the whole concept of the poverty programme to which many Senators referred this morning. The purpose of the Poverty Agency is to research poverty in this country, to try to discover the cause of poverty, to educate the people about the extent and the nature of poverty and to ensure that input not just alone by the Department of Social Welfare but by all the other Departments which by their policies down through the years have contributed to poverty, will be sufficient.

One Senator said that though charity is welcome, it is not the answer to the problem. I agree completely with the point about educating the public on the true nature of poverty and the extent of the sacrifices — if we can call them such; indeed in many cases they are sacrifices — which will have to be made, a sense of foregoing what they already have because it is more than their share of the national wealth, that will have to be made by other sections of the community if we are to bring justice to the people who are in the social welfare net who, had they got fair play from the moment they entered this world would not be in it today. I accept the point that there is no place here for claims of virtue.

Senator McGuinness made the point that Christmas should not be about how much money we have, and I agree with her. Christmas for the old, the lonely and the poor can be a very sad time. While we in this House cannot do very much about the large measure of loneliness that exists at Christmas without the co-operation of the community at large, we have an opportunity to do something about a measure of poverty, and that is precisely what this Bill sets out to do.

Senator McGuinness also spoke of the anomalies that still exist in the social welfare code. I assure the Senator that this is something of which I am very conscious and to which I am giving attention. I accept her point in relation to anomalies because very often when one anomaly is eliminated another is created. In relation to the improvement of the system generally, because of the nature of our society—the fact that so many people at both upper and lower age limits are dependent on a small working force— progress has to be slower than many of us would like it to be.

Senator Honan spoke on behalf of the mentally handicapped, and I thank her for the comment she made with regard to my interest in the mentally handicapped. I assure her that as far as I am concerned the purpose of the International Year of the Disabled is not that we should make gestures or take action during this year but that we should enlighten people and set a framework which would show the path ahead. We will not have made progress this year if we do not ensure that the work we do will be continued. I can assure the Senator that this is a matter which continually will be getting my attention as long as I hold this post.

Senator Bolger made the point that the rate of pensions is extremely low. I accept that, and it is a point I have made repeatedly both in Government and in Opposition down through the years. We condemn people on pensions of the nature we are dealing with here this morning to a standard of living that would not be acceptable to the rest of us. We tend to pat ourselves on the backs if we give these people £7, £8 or £9 a week and we realise that other sections of the community would not accept an increase of that nature because obviously they have more muscle and can exercise greater clout when it comes to getting their share of the national cake. We have a very special responsibility in relation to the people concerned here. As Senator Byrne said, we regard £30 or £40 a week as adequate when others, without a thought, would spend £30 or £40 on one meal and would not regard the meal they got for £30 or £40 for two persons as adequate by way of a night's entertainment. So we have two standards. We will have to eliminate those two standards and let the public see there will not be a section at the lower end of the social scale who are condemned to live in a standard that would not be acceptable to the rest of us.

A number of Senators spoke about the personalisation of the Department of Social Welfare. I can tell those Senators that that is a priority for me. I am very well aware of the problems of the Department of Social Welfare and I want to make it quite clear that everybody who works in the Department of Social Welfare, within the constraints of the resources available, is doing an excellent job. What we have tended to do down through the years is to push work of all kinds on to this Department. Legislation has come in. All the matters with which other Departments could not deal have been hived on to the Department of Social Welfare for consideration, but we have not increased the resources: we have not invested in the technology in the Department of Social Welfare or, perhaps, in many other Departments, that has become acceptable in private enterprise. Then we expect the services to meet today's needs and today's standards which we set in other areas.

The standard I want in the Department of Social Welfare is one that will meet today's needs. It is one that would ensure there would be no one waiting for payments. There has been a considerable improvement in the speed of payment in the Department, but I accept there are still some delays. There are still problems in getting through on the telephone to the Department of Social Welfare, but there is a programme to improve the telephone service and I would hope that very shortly the matter will improve there.

In the Department of Social Welfare there is a system built up over many years where we have not kept pace with what was acceptable in other Departments or outside in private enterprise. While we are pressing ahead with computerisation and improvement of the network and the communications systems in the Department, obviously, as Senator McGuinness said, these things take time. All I can do today is to guarantee Senators they will not take longer than is absolutely necessary within the constraints of the resources that are available to me to attend to the needs of that Department.

Senator McAuliffe too, spoke of the disabled, and the position of the disabled people who are not on invalidity pensions though they may be on long duration disability pensions for more than one year and may have the option of going on disability pensions which would give them the double pensions this Christmas, but chose not to do so because that disability pension is taxable. I would advise people who are on long duration disability benefit to transfer to disability pensions. So far as the taxation element of it is concerned, it is something we will take up at another time. I have noted Senator McAuliffe's point. I tend to hold the view that in respect of income from whatever source, if it is adequate and reaches the level of being in the tax net, it would be rather difficult to organise a tax system which would allow for the exclusion of incomes of certain kinds or extend that exclusion. However, it is a point that I have taken up and I will certainly look into it and bring it to the notice of my colleagues who have organisations which would be more appropriate for dealing with that problem.

I think that deals with the points that have been raised during the course of the debate. I would say once again that the aim of the Bill is to bring comfort at Christmas to the categories of people who, because of their special needs such as advancing age, chronic illness and indeed one-parent families, have particular pressures on them at this time of year. They are in the main people who do not have the prospect of ending their dependence on social welfare payments.

In bringing in a Bill of this nature we have tended to concentrate on people of particular need. I think Senators appreciate that point. I thank them sincerely for the welcome they have extended to the Bill. It is very important that we do the best we can for people in that category who are confined to that level of income at Christmas.

It is more important that we should look at the whole social welfare code and look at the whole area of poverty. We should try to identify the causes of the poverty and see whether it is possible to ensure that many of the people who are recipients of social welfare and who in a more just society would not depend on double payments at Christmas or on social welfare at any time, will be looked after, and having done that that those who are dependent on social welfare be dealt with as humanely and efficiently as possible by the Department.

Question put and agreed to.

Agreed to take remaining Stages today.