Skip to main content
Normal View

Seanad Éireann debate -
Wednesday, 25 Nov 1981

Vol. 96 No. 10

Independent Curriculum and Examinations Board: Motion (Resumed).

Debate resumed on the following motion:
That Seanad Éireann welcomes the Government's intention to establish an Independent Curriculum and Examinations Board.
—(Mrs. G. Hussey).

I should like to remind Senators that this motion relates to a very wide range of issues and that, consequently, there would not be sufficient time to cover any one of these in great detail. I should like to refer, however, to one or two of these issues which I believe are raised by the question of an independent examinations board. The first is that our educational system has tended to concentrate upon the acquisition of information, the acquisition of knowledge to a certain extent as if that knowledge were some sort of commodity which could be measured out and subsequently given some sort of quantified status. One of the possibilities and one of the necessities which an independent examinations board must consider is the transformation of our educational system into one which concentrates upon the development of skills, skills not necessarily in a manual sense, but in an intellectual sense as well. By that I mean the development of those skills which enable the pupil and subsequently the adult who is continuing to be educated all the time to acquire further information and to develop new knowledge.

Another aspect is that of teacher participation. In some of the experimental schemes which have been carried out in this country in recent years it was found that many teachers, particularly in rural areas, found themselves very isolated from the mainstream of what was going on in education and they welcomed these private schemes as a means of involving themselves in new developments. The new examinations board, therefore, if they approach the teaching profession in the right fashion, will find a massive fund of goodwill, a fund of knowledge and a fund of creativity. So far as costing is concerned I would remind the Minister and his advisers that the costing of this kind of scheme has been examined already and will be found, for example, in the final report of the Public Examinations Evaluation Project. That report was presented to the Minister's predecessor.

It is also particularly important, when the examinations board proceed about this business, that at the earliest possible stage, they should clearly specify their objectives. Often when we find ourselves engaged in a project of this kind if we do not specify our objectives clearly we find ourselves involved in waste and proceeding up a cul-de-sac, which is an expensive and wasteful occupation.

Another matter is the necessity to encourage flexibility in the curriculum or, indeed, flexibility in the curricula, that is to say to encourage within the educational system educationalists and teachers, to experiment and to find new ways of doing things. With regard to teachers, the Department and the examinations board must be prepared to invest in training. Those who may have been adjacent to a radio last night may have heard an extremely interesting debate about the teaching of science in our schools. I would recommend very much to the Minister that he should try to get a transcript of that programme. Many of the problems with regard to the teaching of science and, in particular, the necessity for in-service training, were raised. If we are to make the best of our educational system and to get the greatest benefit from our examinations we must be prepared to spend some money and to spend it intelligently in the area of teacher training. It is important also with regard to any innovation in education that the teachers be given due notice of what is proposed and that they have time to prepare themselves for any changes that are to take place. There have been occasions in the past, and one thinks particularly of the introduction of the new mathematics syllabus, when the Department in their enthusiasm to be involved in new things moved ahead too quickly and the teachers were not prepared for it.

With examinations we have tended in the past to concentrate on the academically more able and have not given due attention to those who are less able. There have been experiments in various countries in this area. One thinks, for example, of the CSE in Britain and there are lessons to be learned there. Something that we should try to aim for is some kind of certificate or recognition which a less able child can work to acquire and take away with him or with her, as the case may be.

I have just touched on a number of items there, each of which possibly could be developed in greater detail, but I would like to concentrate now on what I regard as the major issue which arises, for me at any rate, with regard to the proposal to have an independent examinations board that will note that there are developments taking place mainly outside education which will radically challenge our concept of what education involves and our concept of what constitutes that specific area of human activity which we label as education or which we label as the school or as institutions of schooling. I referred to this briefly before. This is the concept of a third technological revolution. This has a very important bearing upon the way in which this board are composed and the philosophy or the objectives or the terms of reference with which they are provided. If this board are framed and composed in a manner which is fundamentally looking backwards and rooted in our past attitudes or past philosophy in the education area, we will be making a very substantial mistake. The further technological revolution about which some writers have published a certain amount of material is that which follows the agricultural and industrial revolutions. The revolution to which they refer is a technological revolution based on information. Their suggestion is that information will become the key resource and the handling of this information is the touchstone or the criterion which will separate advanced from less advanced societies.

In speaking about information one is considering here not just what one might call interesting facts, that is to say, relatively isolated snippets of knowledge, some of which might be connected to each other, or a sort of glorified encyclopaedia, or the kind of thing with which people prepare themselves for a quiz or a mastermind competition or something of that nature. For most of us who were educated in the schools of the earlier part and middle of this century, it is possibly difficult to differentiate between information and data. There is no clear dividing line between them. Obviously we are talking about statistical data. We are talking about economic data and matters of that kind but we are talking also about a whole area of technology which deals, for example, with the control of complicated industrial machinery — service machinery and so on. It is important to stress that the dividing line between that kind of highly technical area and the information with which we are more familiar is blurred and is one which is causing problems already, problems which are concerned with our world picture, how we see the world and how we see things developing.

One of the propositions I should like to put forward is that this new information technology or, as some people call it, a telematic society, strikes at the very basis of our traditional concept of education, a traditional concept of education at the centre of which is the teacher. By and large our education has been up to now what one might call teacher-based. There is another whole area about whether education is subject oriented or whether it is child oriented. But the point that we are trying to make here is that the organisation of education has had the teacher at the centre. The traditional position of the teacher in the education system is based on his superiority or perceived superiority in three areas. First, his personal store of knowledge: the idea of the teacher as a kind of polymath who has the answer to any question that may come up in his or her classroom; secondly, his or her skill in the handling of information, the tricks, if you like, that he or she can play with this information and thirdly, the skill of the teacher in imparting information, putting it across and also in teaching information-handling skills.

There are other areas also in which the teacher has a vital place in education. One must speak, for example, of the role of the teacher in the socialisation of students, the socialisation of children, and as a human being in the classroom providing, we hope, an example of what a human being should be. But in the three areas which I mentioned before, that is to say with regard to the teacher's personal store of knowledge, his skill in handling information and his skill in teaching information-handling skills, we are moving towards a situation in which the teacher can be challenged by what we may call, for the sake of argument, computer-based systems. This is obviously an extremely delicate area. It is a delicate area because it strikes at the whole concept of what a teacher is. It strikes at what one might call the self-concept of teachers. It has also got a very important implication with regard to employment. But it is something with which we are going to have to reckon very quickly if we are to make our educational system one that is comparable to the more advanced systems in the world and comparable also to the ones that are beginning to develop. In this context I should like to welcome the distance education unit which was announced recently.

However, without any disrespect to that institution I should like to suggest that in the context of some of the developments that are taking place and are about to take place in other countries, this is very much only a beginning. It is crude and, if one were to be rude about it, can be described as no more than a one-way blast of data at the present stage. I will try to explain what I mean by that.

In that kind of education we are talking about an emission or a transmission, a one-way transmission of a certain amount of data which is set out and left there for whoever is available to pick it up. What have been developing in the United States and in Britain are inter-active systems. In considering how we are to approach the question of an independent examinations board — and referring again to the fact that examinations determine the character of our education and also reflect what is in our education — we must take cognisance of the fact that there are things happening in education which are going to transform the whole of our examination system, or at any rate to challenge it. When one speaks of computer-based systems, of distance education or about the kind of simulations which are available in this type of system and then goes even further and begins to talk about artificial intelligence, the reaction of some people listening or reading is to switch off, if I can take a technological analogy or, alternatively, to begin to feel very deep stirrings of unease. But the facts which we have to take into our minds when we are considering the future development of education and of information systems are facts such as this. There were, for example, in 1980 no fewer than 200 satellites flying around our globe dealing in information, man-made satellites dealing in information, transmitting information data of one kind or another. There are systems available in the United States whereby any family, which at the moment has a certain amount of money but maybe not too much, can get their own aerial to plug in to the systems. There is something called Docfax which is a system by which documents can be transmitted from one place to another at great speed and with total efficiency. We have already in Europe various systems such as Cefax and Prestel. There are systems in Japan, West Germany, France and in Canada. Prestel is a system which makes available no fewer than 200,000 pages of information at the press of a switch.

There are other developments as well, such as simulated 3D colour presentations. There are systems which can now reproduce the human voice and which can identify variations of the human voice. If one thinks of this as something that is far away and belonging to another country, I might note that some of the research that has taken place in artificial-computerised voice production has taken place in University College, Cork. We have a process called electronic mail which can deliver something like 3,600 pages per hour. Already in the United States two-way cable television by which the broadcasting — the new word is narrowcasting — station can produce a certain amount of information and then the receiver can react back to that by means of press-button systems.

There is a whole area in education now called computer-aided learning, or CAL as it is known. There are interactive computer-based systems. There are interactive computer-based guidance counselling systems in the United States and I will not tire the Senators by reading out the list of initials which are used to denote the names of these. What I am trying to get across is the idea that our traditional concept of education as something that happened in a classroom in which one man or one woman controlled everything that was happening in which there was — I speak as a teacher — a sort of continuous one-man virtuoso show. This kind of conceptive education is now being challenged. We are moving towards a situation in which we may find that the student or the child does not need the school at all.

Up to about 15 or 20 years ago there had been little significant change in educational methods and technology in Irish schools since the Middle Ages. When I say that I am not trying to indulge in rhetoric or trying to push an image too far. If we consider what went on in a classroom and consider the methods used we will find that there was very little change since the Middle Ages. In fact the methods used in the schools, even allowing for the very high standard of teachers, was not much different from and sometimes less satisfactory than those practised by Socrates.

Even today the majority of Irish teachers still rely on chalk and talk. At the same time that business, industry and even some areas of public administration are adopting and adapting technology which qualitatively and quantitatively revolutionise their work, the educational sector remains almost entirely unsullied, technologically, by the faintest breath of a wind of change. The only adequate analogy is the contrast between the primitive manual technology of subsistance agriculture in under-developed countries and the highly capitalised expert and mechanised agriculture of the developed countries of the industrial northern hemisphere. If we look at this objectively we are using Third World methods to educate the future adults of the 21st century.

Within what is, compared to what is going on in other aspects of human life, compared to what is going on in business and administration in industry, still basically an antiquated system, the bottleneck is the teacher. As a teacher and as one who has reached this Chamber largely as a result of the knowledge and practical experience of organised teachers, I have seen immense transformations taking place in my profession over the last 20 years. There is no doubt in my mind, particularly if one looks at the more glamorous aspects of teaching that emerge, say, in the Young Scientists competition, or the various projects, expeditions and so forth, which show that teachers are alive, that they have been trying to move forward, that there have been positive transformations. The fact nevertheless remains — I am willing to say this even among teachers — that in the information society of the very near future almost all of our teachers are, methodologically speaking, anachronisms. In the context of sophisticated information handling machines, a global telecommunications system and computer-based learning systems, the claim of the teacher in the classroom to a monopoly of knowledge and control over his pupils' learning process is no longer unchallenged. A time is approaching when the school will no longer be necessary for instruction and maybe no longer necessary even for education.

The major, most powerful, argument against the likelihood of such an alternative education system appearing in Ireland in the immediate future is its undoubted cost. To provide that kind of background, that kind of machinery and those resources will undoubtedly be expensive. However, that fact of cost is precisely the reason why the educational authorities must confront the issues now.

One might note here that the failure of previous governments to confront the impact of modern technology and the needs of modern society in the area, for example, of the telephone system is only too evident to all of us who occasionally have to use such machines if we can find them. The developments hinted at here, because only the very few and the very rich will in the short time be able to afford them, give to the children of those very few and very rich a massive advantage. Not only that, but they will give to those countries which take the appropriate decisions now or have already taken the appropriate decisions as have, for example, Japan and France, an advantage of what can only be described as of algebraic proportions. I claim originality for this assertion for it is merely stating in a few sentences what has been for several years the official policy of some governments at any rate, and other countries are moving in the same direction.

It may seem curious to cite Pádraig Pearse in this context but it was given to him to spell out more clearly than any other Irishman before or since the unarguable proposition that the basic natural drive to learn of the human child is our greatest national resource. The conjunction of a teaching environment and methods, which unleash, guide and urge on that drive to learn and a technology which makes information and resources available on a scale which no teacher, unaided, could ever match, offers to this country the possibility of exploiting and deploying this national resource and natural national resource to an extent almost beyond our capacity to understand.

At the very moment that we are speculating on this future we also face the combination of a growing youth unemployment position and the real prospect, as Professor Dale Tussing has suggested, of a virtual breakdown in the provision of higher and further education in this country. The methods and concepts hitherto applied to educational policy cannot cope with this crisis and the governments which will have to deal with this crisis face the harsh alternative of either admitting that we cannot educate all our children or cannot educate them to the level that we regard as reasonable or, alternatively, of adopting revolutionary proposals involving, among other things, individualised learning and distance learning and inter-active telematic technology.

If we are to educate all our children and give them equal opportunities in education, if we are to emphasise and deploy educational methods which take the restrictions off what those children can learn — I mean their ability to learn, I do not necessarily mean the matter or content — and take the restrictions off their power to make the most of their potential, the approach we will have to adopt will be different in important respects from those which we have used hitherto. A revolutionary situation can only be met by revolutionary methods.

In conclusion on this topic of an independent examinations board, and remembering the vital influence which that board must have upon the character and content of our educational system, I urge the Minister to do his utmost to ensure that the board is a force for useful, constructive innovation. If he can manage to do that he will have left behind him something for which he will be remembered with gratitude by the entire nation.

Not being a teacher but as one who has been involved at board of management level and as a parent I would like to contribute to this debate. The primary objective of our programme is to facilitate the total development of the child. The system should be structured at secondary education level to meet the needs and preferences of the student. As we know, the primary curriculum has been revised over the last eight or ten years. Great emphasis has been placed on the natural development of the talent of the child. However, no such change has taken place in the early stages of the secondary curriculum, which is very much subject-orientated. As a result of this, there are many students who find the transfer from primary to secondary level difficult.

When I attended national school in the forties we had the scholarship or seventh class. It was a very worth-while class. People who attended that class needed no further education. They were very well equipped for the life ahead. That should be borne in mind in any curriculum change. The early stages of the secondary curriculum should be revised drastically. Greater emphasis should be placed on the development of the young students' talents. The teaching of subjects, such as civics, drama and public speaking should be introduced formally. Group projects which would give the students an opportunity to engage in some form of research, whether it be through newspapers, libraries or historical material should also be introduced. Writing reports would discipline them.

Throughout the next ten years there will be a great demand to develop technically-orientated curricula especially at the senior cycle second level. This, we all know, is an area of critical growth. It has been predicted that between 1974 and 1986 there will have been a 50 per cent enrolment in this area. This area has traditionally been associated with the leaving certificate which is an excellent examination, but one would have to question whether it caters for the large numbers of pupils in terms of job preparation or entry at third level technological courses.

Something else is needed. The evidence for this can be seen in the movement over the past number of years to develop work-related courses. Many people say that selection and over-specialisation should not take place at too early an age. Students should be given an opportunity to select for short periods subjects which would be optional to them.

It has been suggested — I agree with this — that there should be some change in the intermediate examination. It should be changed to a system where the teacher would allocate a certain number of points and the balance of the marks would be allocated at a final examination. This would cultivate the natural talents of the student and would create less emphasis on the academic achievement.

Senator Whitaker and Senator O'Rourke referred to the question of stress. In any situation where there are examinations, whether it is an examination at school level or a competition at athletics, there is bound to be stress. We should not forget that we are living in the eighties, which is the era of stress and strain. While I do not attach that much importance to stress and strain at that level, I accept the point, as my colleague in Athlone has often said, that there are many students who can cope with this stress and strain. However, I feel that generally there is, perhaps, an overemphasis on that point.

The question of remedial education deserves to be mentioned. It is accepted that on average about 30 per cent of the first year entrants to the post primary sector are two or more years behind in reading age. The figures for students with numeracy difficulties is still higher. The reading age for most of the text books used at post primary level is 12 plus. A significant number of students are incapable of gaining benefit from the courses which they must follow. Students with no facility in English will find themselves time-tabled for other subjects such as French and so on while no provision is made within the school to tackle their reading problem.

There are a limited number, roughly 40 to 45, of post primary remedial teachers who have been trained. It is regrettable that many of them have not had their appointments sanctioned by the Department. The position at primary level is even more critical due to the shortage of trained remedial teachers. This, coupled with the class sizes, is a huge factor behind the first year post primary problem. It is estimated that up to 100,000 people in this country have reading problems and as most of these will have passed through our education system it is self-evident that we have a problem of pretty major proportions on our hands.

The whole area of curriculum is something that I feel should be looked at and improved. The motion deals with the intention to do something about it. Obviously we have to wait to see what is produced at the end of the day. I welcome the intention and I look forward to a final result and, possibly, we will have some discussion at that particular time.

Like other Senators I welcome this debate. I would like to have had an opportunity to commend the Minister for Education personally both for introducing the motion in the Seanad and on his introductory remarks. I am grateful to the Minister of State who has indicated that he will pass on the remarks. I wanted to have an opportunity of saying this personally because I have had differences, particularly on the raising of the school entry age, with the Minister. It is a pleasant position to be in to warmly welcome the debate which he started and which this House has responded to in full measure.

We have been discussing the second level but it is necessary, while looking at this part, to do it in the context of the whole cycle of education from primary to secondary to third level and continuing on to adult education. In that context even a decision about raising the entry age to national school has implications for and can cause problems at second level, particularly problems for those most vulnerable and most in need.

Before coming to that particular aspect I would like to consider the general characteristics of second cycle education, as it can be viewed in a very broad way. There are two general characteristics which are very relevant to the discussion and the proposal to establish an independent examinations and curriculum board. The first of these is that the system is too centralised. The second is that the system is almost totally tied up with the requirements of third level. This has a predominant impact both on curriculum development and examination or assessment development at second level.

I was very interested, when reading the Minister's opening speech, at the length with which he dealt with and opened up questions and issues on possible ways in which there could be curriculum development and examination and assessment development at second level. He did not seem to me to develop to anything like the same degree the question of how to try to ensure that the system at second level ceases to be so centralised. It is this first issue that I want to consider. The Minister acknowledged the extent of the over-centralising in the context of the curriculum development. At column 515, volume 96 of the Official Report he said:

A curriculum which might be relevant in say, Dublin, may not be at all relevant in many parts of rural Ireland, or even in other urban centres. This suggests a need for flexibility in curriculum design — a flexibility which must also be found in the examinations by means of which student mastery of that curriculum is assessed.

I would like to take this question of moving away from an over-centralised system another step. I would like to take it to the step of the structure that we are proposing to establish, the structure of an independent curriculum and examinations board, because I believe if there is going to be a real dynamism in the development both of a curriculum and also methods of and approaches to examination assessment this should be done on a regional basis in so far as possible. I hope that in his reply to this debate the Minister will give us some of his thoughts on the question. I believe an important element in the kind of developments which the Minister hopes to see and is looking for in relation to the curriculum and examinations system would be that within the structure of the board itself there would be regional devolution, a decentralising of some of the functions and powers of the proposed board. This would be possible without any loss of standards or without any concern that regional differences might cause problems which could neither be co-ordinated nor standardised.

It is possible to ensure adequate coordination at regional level, adequate standardisation where standards are important throughout, but the regional devolution would allow for a greater potential development of innovations in curriculum. It would allow a greater use of important resources which at the moment are not sufficiently used and exploited in the system. The first resource is the knowledge of teachers and their potential input. A certain regional devolution would allow for a greater flexibility by teachers in the development and design of their own courses, in the use of local facilities, local industry, local geographical attributes of a particular area, all the kinds of resources that are there but at the moment are not brought into curriculum development because it is over-centralised and dictated from the Dublin-based Department. Not only would there be the possibility of using the resource of the teacher and the teacher's knowledge of the locality and potential of that locality but there would also be the resource of involvement by local industry, of involvement by local councils, associations, trade union movements and so on and, importantly, the resource of involvement by parents in an understanding of and an influence themselves on the development of the curriculum. This would be an important part of ensuring some of the other values which the Minister referred to and which have been echoed in a number of contributions to this debate, the need for greater relevance, greater flexibility and greater awareness of the kind of society that young people are coming into and of the kind of skills and knowledge that they will require in that society.

I hope that this will be responded to specifically by the Minister and that he will give us the benefit of his thinking at this stage on whether, in proposing to set up an independent board, he proposes to have within that board some devolution and decentralising of the powers and functions of that board, some possibility of regional development and the way in which this would lend its own dynamism to the kind of development which he would like to see.

If this forms part of the approach which will be adopted to establishing the board then it, too, will make even stronger the case that has been made by a number of Senators for both in-service training and indeed pre-service training of teachers. The more there is a development of the curriculum, and specifically if there is the possibility for at least part of that curriculum to be developed on a regional basis, the more teachers will require themselves to be helped by pre-service and in-training courses to adapt to a use and development of their own professional skills and input, in designing courses, in assessing students and in responding to the potential of their own locality. I agree very much with the points made by Senator Maurice O'Connell regarding the potential of the new technology, the potential of the information society in which we find ourselves but which is not really reflected at the moment in the curriculum development to any great extent.

This kind of development would break the present rigid log-jam, at least part of which is caused by the fact that the curriculum is almost exclusively determined by the examination, which is the wrong way around. I think that the type of examination or approach to examination or assessment should depend and must depend on the nature and development of the curriculum. If we get that order right, then I think a number of the other important values and considerations will follow. If we move — as is clearly the shared view of the Members of the House who have contributed — to a more flexible, and in many cases for the pupils who are the consumers to a more relevant, curriculum then I believe we must also accept as being essential to that the need for a more flexible examination and assessment system.

Although the Minister referred in his introductory speech to the developments that are taking place in continuous assessment, he seemed to raise doubts about the objectivity of teachers and about whether this system would work. I hope I am misreading or misunderstanding in reading too much into those doubts. I hope these are only questions that might be asked, because I believe there is a great deal of very interesting and useful research and pilot study work being done on various types of assessment, not just in this country — particularly by the Curriculum Development Unit in Trinity College — but also in other countries and indeed on this island in Northern Ireland, particularly in Coleraine. We should be aware of the kinds of developments in assessment and the completely different way of assessing and through the method of assessment encouraging the abilities and skills of students.

If this board is being established it would be appropriate to make it clear even in the name of the board that it is not as narrow as it appears from the title of the motion. It is not just a curriculum and examinations board, but it is a curriculum, assessment and examinations board and is more concerned about different methods of assessment than what is normally a rather narrow and limited perception of examination as a method of assessment. Again there are various developments of continuing assessment, of portfolio assessment where the representative work of a particular pupil can be put together in a way which gets around the problem of whether a teacher is sufficiently objective in assessing students and there are ways of co-ordinating assessment. An important part of any method of assessment is to have teachers properly trained, equipped and confident in assessing and in developing their own skills in that regard. Together with any developments in the curriculum must come a willingness to be more flexible and more innovatory in methods of assessment. It is the curriculum which will determine the need for that if we are prepared — which I hope we will be — to see the kind of developments that have been mentioned.

I would like to turn to the board itself. The Minister asked us to reflect on and to express views on the composition of the board and on its possible functions and powers but he made the task slightly more difficult for us by not being very specific himself. He left very much open what might be the composition of the board. This leaves us with a great many possible variations. I think many Senators would like to see the board being broadly representative and, therefore, perhaps having different tiers of participation in it. I have mentioned, and I would like to emphasise again, that I would like to see as part of the structure of the board an element of regional dispersal, that the board would have as part of its composition a regional structure. I agree with the view expressed by the Minister that there should be not just an involvement in participation by the obvious groups in an educational sense but also other groups, of representation from industry and from the trade union movement in order that the kinds of issues which will be discussed will reflect also what is happening in the industrial life of the nation. I would include also in that representation on the cultural side a much broader kind of representation, possibly on an advisory board in an advisory capacity.

The important features of the board will be what relationship it will have with the Minister for Education of the day. Again, the Minister when introducing the motion referred to an independent board. This gives rise to all kinds of potential difficulties because although I think it would be welcomed that the board would have a certain independence in its approach to its functions, I do not think that it would be welcomed that the board would be so distanced from the Minister that he would no longer have any responsibility or accountability in this area. I think it is important that the Minister retains an element of accountability and responsibility, an element of, if you like, political concern for the kind of powers and functions being exercised by the board.

I also think it is important to clarify what the relationship of the board would be with other bodies involved in education. I would like to mention one area specifically because this certainly was not dealt with by the Minister at any length, that is, the relationship between the board and the bodies and institutes involved in adult education. This is particularly important because a good deal of so-called adult or continuing education takes place at second level, where pupils have dropped out on their 15th birthday or have left having taken the group or intermediate certificate and have possibilities of continuing courses, of pre-employment courses and short courses, while they are still at the second level age or even if they are older but come back to second level institutions to take these courses. There is a very direct relationship between some part of the curriculum development in which the board would be examining and discussing, and what is happening under the general heading of adult or continuing education. This would have to be reflected both in the composition of the board and in its relationship with other institutes and agencies in this field.

I would like to turn to one of the key functions of the board as set out in the Minister's speech, the role of curriculum development. In this regard he referred to the curriculum development unit in the Department of Education. As I understand it, that is one of the most overworked bodies staffed by an overworked corps of inspectors, and an immediate improvement would be to expand the manpower and potential of the inspectorate and the curriculum unit. I have been got at to that extent. I would also like to refer to the work of the two other centres, in particular the Curriculum Development Unit of the City of Dublin VEC located in Trinity and to some extent the Curriculum Development Unit at Shannon. I am not as familiar with the Shannon unit, so I will confine my remarks and comments to the Dublin unit. In doing so I wear for the purpose the hat of being a member of the City of Dublin VEC and I would like to pay tribute in this House to the work of the curriculum development unit in Trinity College.

The Minister has already referred to the kind of curriculum development, the kind of pilot schemes, the kind of innovations that have been made. He has obviously acknowledged the value of this work. However, he refers in his introductory speech to the fact that the future of such centres is currently under review in the Department. I hope that that review is one which recognises the extremely positive and creative influence which these curriculum development units in Trinity and at Shannon have had in the kinds of developments that have taken place even under present circumstances. I have been aware of this both on the VEC itself and from talking to teachers, from being on the board of management of Crumlin College and from meeting parents who have seen the benefit of the kind of innovation and courses, the pre-employment courses, the courses for early school leavers and the career foundation courses which have been developed. Perhaps it is fair to say — and I think I am in a good position to say it — that most of the exciting innovatory work at second level has been done under the auspices of the vocational sector, and to a very large extent using the resource and potential of the curriculum development unit. At the same time, the work and the resource of the curriculum development unit are not confined to vocational schools, but are availed of, used and appreciated by an increasing number of secondary schools, particularly in the greater Dublin area.

What I would like to see is that kind of curriculum development unit on a regional basis as a resource for curriculum development at a regional level. This would have an enormous potential. It would ensure that we will be preparing pupils for the life and life-style that would face them in this rapidly changing society and for the need to develop the resources and potential even of the area or of the locality in which they are growing up. If the Minister needs any affirmation or confirmation from Members of this House of the value of the work of the curriculum development unit I hope this will be made very clear to him and the work of the units will be reinforced and expanded on a regional basis.

It is partly because of the work done in the curriculum development unit and partly because of an openness to change and development that many of the innovations have taken place under the auspices of the VECs. As a person involved in curriculum development put it to me very graphically, the innovation has been to a very substantial extent born of need, and where the need is greatest then you will have the greatest pressure for innovation and development. There is a very considerable truth in this. It is only when the curriculum at second level was seen to be so completely inappropriate for the inner city or disadvantaged areas, where you were trying to apply a system basically preparing for leaving certificate, for entrance to university, to pupils of 13 or 14 years who were likely to drop out at 15 years to leave school without any certificate at all, or possibly with the group or intermediate certificate that there was an important dynamism for radical change in the curriculum. We should extend that to see the need in our society as a whole, the need that stems from very high youth unemployment, from the demographic structure of the State itself, the fact that we have a young growing population, the changes taking place in technology and the developments of an information society. We should see all of these in the same context as pressing social needs which should determine the speed and the extent to which we are prepared to make substantial changes in curriculum development, assessment and examination of pupils.

In that context I agree with a number of Senators who emphasised the need for a more flexible and more sensitive approach to the certification for courses. Again, I think the most interesting experimentation and development in this area has been at the VEC level. I believe for a number of reasons that no pupil going through the educational system at the moment should leave without certification, should leave without, to put it crudely, "the bit of paper", and that bit of paper should be much more attuned to the individual and sensitive both to the needs and potential of that individual.

I think there have been some interesting developments and experiments on profiling, on a profile assessment of an individual, rather than setting rather academic standards against which we either fail youngsters or which they do not take because they have dropped out before facing these academic tests and standards. What I think we need is to parallel flexible developments in the curriculum with developments in assessment and in certification. It is important for a number or reasons. It is very important for the self-image of the young boy or girl that when leaving the formal school system they do it with an acknowledgment of some skill, some particular aptitude, or potential that each individual child has. That is important for the self-image of the youngster involved. It could have an important bearing on the preception of teachers because if a teacher is being both encouraged and indeed required to provide this kind of profile assessment — I am talking now of a particular case where there is a likelihood of dropping out either on the 15th birthday or shortly afterwards — it would encourage teachers to look for, and by looking for help to develop, the potential of the individual youngster. This, too, would have a beneficial effect.

The identification of some particular skill, potential or aptitude would encourage the follow-up for that young person, the possibility of a training course or a pre-employment course or coming back for the early school-leaver course and having that skill further recognised and developed. All of this I believe would counter the very negative and depressing effect of what appears at the moment all too often to be a sort of failure and drop-out, where you have 15 and 16 year olds who appear to themselves to have failed in the system. They either develop their own value system, and do it sometimes with great skill in developing their own economic framework, in ripping off cars or houses because this fits into a perception of being the only structure under which they can live because they have failed in the kind of certification that society has set up. We need to go a great deal further in ensuring not only that we have the kind of curriculum development which responds to the life changes and needs in a society in which these youngsters find themselves, but also that our system of assessment, of recognition of the individual going through that system, is a positive and helpful one to that individual.

A number of Senators have referred to the transition from primary to secondary school. I hope that the Minister in his reply will give more information on his thinking in this area. As I understand it, there was a committee which examined specifically the transition from primary to secondary level. I do not know whether this committee has reported but I understand that a report has not been published. If there is a report I think it would be extremely interesting to see the kind of recommendations of the report. It brings me back briefly to the question of the necessity to see the whole of the education cycle even while we are concentrating on this part.

I shall refer briefly to the problem of raising the school entry age at primary level. I believe this could at the moment have a damaging effect, particularly for the most vulnerable pupils at secondary level. If the age at which they enter and leave the primary curriculum is raised, and if they enter the secondary cycle that little bit later — six months or a year later — then it is possible that for a number of them it is even more likely that they will not have an opportunity to sit for group certificate or intermediate certificate. There will be a larger number than the already depressing number in certain areas dropping out on 15th birthdays or thereabouts without any certification or any visible benefit from the system when they look for jobs or prospects of training or apprenticeship and so on. This is a potential problem which results from an adjustment at primary level.

Apart from that particular problem, there is no doubt that at the moment the two systems do not knit well together. The kind of development that has taken place at primary level, which is more child-centred and has benefited from recent thinking in developments in relation to the curriculum, simply has not been matched at second level. Presumably this will be one of the major considerations of the new board. It will be helpful if the report is published so that we will know the views of the committee.

In relation to curriculum development itself, this is an area where there has been a number of very interesting contributions made already by Members of the House in relation to possible new studies. I would like to see a good deal of innovation in this area. I would like to see the development of the modular approach at senior cycle level. This has a great potential. If it is possible for a pupil to choose modules, to combine these in such a way that if the student leaves second level education at the age of 16 years or 16½ years and goes into a work environment or a training environment, the student may find it easy and indeed attractive to come back and take on further modules. This is the kind of encouragement to an approach in continuing education which we should also be fostering. We should try to promote the value of education as a continuing process, as one which it should not only be possible but indeed easy and structurally possible to come back to. This would be somewhat similar to the credit system in the United States. It would contribute to a further potential for the kind of studies that might be developed. If a modular structure is adopted, then you can develop thematically by expanding on the modules a very significant corpus of knowledge and skills by combining a number of these modules. I would like to see that kind of development in relation to a number of subject areas as well as single subject areas being expanded also. For example, take areas which are currently being examined by a number of individual women and women's organisations, the possibility of introducing women's studies into a curriculum at second level. That kind of development, whether it is political studies, media studies, women studies or studies of human rights, could be approached on the basis of this modular structure in a way which would allow the individual to come back and add further modules within an overall thematic structure and would encourage 30-, 40- and 50-year olds to come back and do likewise. This would be to the benefit of the whole system and would make it much more responsive to the kind of society which we already have and which requires this kind of movement in and out of the education system and ease of continuing the education and self-development of the individual.

Perhaps because this motion has education at its base, the contributions on this motion by individual Senators have been extraordinarily longer than the average on motions in this House. I do not intend to prolong my own contribution. I would just like to reinforce a couple of the points that I have made. Like other Senators, I very much welcome the initiative and the general approach of the Minister in commencing this debate, but I would like to see more emphasis on certain aspects of it. I would like to see clear emphasis on the value of regional development structures, getting away from the over centralisation in the system as it is at the moment. Also I would like to see in the very title of the board an acknowledgment of the importance of assessment as well as examination, because this flows from a development of the curriculum on an innovative basis. I should like to see strong evidence of an acknowledgment of the need for pre-service and in-service training for teachers. It is they, as Senator Maurice O'Connell being a teacher so correctly and appropriately said, who must have confidence in and lead the developments if we want to see real change in the system. If they are apprehensive and resent developments taking place which they are not equipped for or encouraged to be fully involved in, then there will be unnecessary resistance. Pre-service and in-service training of teachers would be an important part of using their professionalism, potential and input in curriculum development.

More attention should be paid to technological developments which are taking place and to the possibilities of distance learning, computer-based learning, etc. These must form an important part of the role and work of the new board and the approach we would adopt. In a way we are fortunate that we have a young and comparatively better educated and better prepared population to take advantage of the extraordinary quantum leap which we have reached with this information society. This needs to be reflected in our appreciation of the enormous potential that is there and can be developed, particularly in education. There is a very real danger of continuing a system at present which is based on ensuring that pupils learn a whole lot of knowledge but do not have skills of information retrieval which is part of the development of the information society. I should not like to quantify the amount of time we spend teaching them facts which they do not need and skills they do not want. What we want to do is ensure that we have a system which will impart the skills of the information society and the opportunities of that society using all the advances and technology of society. That technology also allows for a great deal more decentralisation and regional development through advanced forms and methods of co-ordination. These should be fully explored and developed.

The debate is one which acknowledges the need for radical change. Radical change in the curriculum requires radical change in much more than that even, as Senator O'Connell said, in the schools' structures and our concept of schooling and approaches to it. We must establish the kind of system which responds to the various values and needs we have identified but we must do it in a time-scale that shows how urgently we comprehend the need for a rapid change of approach and greater flexibility in curriculum development and assessment at second level. I hope we might have an opportunity in the very near future to discuss third level and adult education.

Is main liomsa ar dtús fáilte a chur roimh an Aire Stáit agus ar ndóigh fáilte a chur roimh an rún seo atá ar an gclár maidir le reachtáil agus láimhseáil ar chúrsaí curaclaim agus cúrsaí scrúduithe na tíre seo. Tá súil agam go rachaidh an scéim seo nó an plean seo atá ag an Aire Oideachais chun leasa ar chúrsaí oideachais agus cúrsaí aos óg na tíre seo.

I join with other Senators in extending a welcome and support for this motion — the decision in principle by the Government to set up an independent curriculum and examinations board. In doing so, I take this opportunity to express gratitude to teachers for the dedication, devotion and commitment which they have shown, both lay and clerical, through the years to advancing and promoting education. We owe them all a very great debt of gratitude.

The past 20 years have ushered in many changes in our educational system. We have new policies, institutions, colleges and structures. Ever since the setting up of the Department of Education in 1924 and the introduction of the 1878 Act, the aims and goals of post-primary education here have never been clearly identified and articulated while in other countries much work has been done to devise new forms of curricula and examinations at post-primary level.

I share the view of Senator Robinson that post-primary education has been very centralised. Nowhere is this more evident than in the field of the curriculum and examinations. I therefore welcome this initiative by the Minister and the Government to set up an independent board which should reduce the extreme degree of centralised control in the field of the curriculum and provide us with a more decentralised system of testing and examining students, consisting of school-based continuous assessment accompanied by national and regional monitoring of standards in order to supplement the written and external examination. Indeed, the success of the NIHE, Limerick and the NCA in overseeing and validating courses in a wide range of institutions by combining college-based continuous assessment with external examining, demonstrates that the same can be done at post-primary level, at least in the junior cycle, given the appropriate guidance and support.

There are good reasons for doubting the suitability of a written terminal examination of the type that has substantially remained unchanged since the 1878 Act. It is my considered opinion as a teacher that the leaving certificate examination is unsuited to perform the many varied tasks demanded of it — to serve as an index of ability and achievement, to serve as a predictor of future performance and to serve as a basis of selection by employers and as a basis of entry to third level institutions. One written terminal examination at the end of five or six years conducted over a period of two or three weeks where each subject is tested within two or three hours reduces the possibility of accurately assessing the actual and potential ability of a student. The once-off nature of the terminal written examination dismisses the element of luck. A student may be ill or excessively nervous. There are 101 different reasons why a student may not do well in a written examination and yet our examination system takes no account of this fact.

The written examination, of course, may also be unreliable. Greaney in his paper entitled The Predictive Validity of the Irish Leaving Certificate Examination states:

that there is a one in twenty chance that marks may swing up or down by as much as 10 per cent in each direction.

The centre for Educational Research and Innovation, established by the OECD, in their publication entitled Innovative Practices in Secondary Schools make the point that the written examination as we know it often reflects the teacher's ability rather than the student's ability. In that report they make the further point that the time allowed for each question is so short that there is little possibility for reflection and thought. This benefits the quick rather than the sound thinker and emphasises memorisation rather than the logical skills of argument and organisation.

The curriculum has been strongly criticised as being too academic, too static, too bookish and separated from and unrelated to the fabric of everyday living. It is claimed that the curriculum fails to meet the various needs of living, that it fails to cater for the needs of our young people and that it fails to cater for the local and regional needs of the community. These demands of living have been articulated and highlighted by Professor Donal Mulcahy in his recent book entitled Curriculum and Policy in Irish Post Primary Education as the vocational demands of living, the recreational demands of living, the philosophical demands of living and the practical demands of living. Firstly, we have the vocational demands of living. That is the need of all of us to engage in gainful employment and therefore work preparatory education and pre-employment experiences in courses must be incorporated into all levels of post primary education. The EEC publication entitled From Education To Working Life emphasises that education for living and education for work are parallel and complementary aims. Then we have the recreational demands of living —the need to prepare our young people in post-primary for the fruitful use of their leisure time. Third, is the philosophical demands of living — the need for each of us to form a philosophy of life, to work out a system of values for the conduct of living. Fourthly, something that has been largely ignored in some of our schools, we have the practical demands of living. A good deal of knowledge taught in our post-primary schools is totally disconnected from the practical world. There is need to ease the all pervasive power and influence of the universities which dominate our post-primary sector. The matriculation requirements, the points system and the four honours requirement for entitlement to higher education grants, force many students and schools to forego a broad curriculum in order to concentrate on a narrow range of subjects. The result is that non-examination subjects, which could be of a much greater value to a student in adult life, are neglected or largely ignored.

Many years ago, Seán O'Connor, former Secretary of the Department of Education, strongly argued that all subjects taken in the leaving certificate examination should rank as of equal value for the purpose of grants and university entry requirements. He said that there was little point in encouraging potential university students to develop their interests and aptitudes if the subjects of their choice do not tally with university requirements.

I agree with the other Senators that civics should be promoted and advanced at all levels of post-primary schools. I agree with Professor Brugman of the University of Bruges that civics should be treated as a serious and important subject in schools and should be tested by way of examination as is done, for example, by the CSE Regional Examination Boards in the UK. It should count in rank for the purposes of grants and university entry requirements.

Professor John Coolahan in his recent publication entitled "Irish Education — History and Structure" sums up what would be the ideal situation in regard to the curriculum and examinations. In that publication he stated that the current challenge to the Irish education system was to ensure that its public examination system was educationally well founded, flexible and responsive to the needs of schools and pupils and that too great a burden was not placed by third level institutions and society at large on an examination structure which may be too narrow. It is true to say that traditions die hard. The written examination has dominated post primary education for many a day. We cannot rely solely on the written terminal examination. Neither can we rely solely on continuous assessment. A combination of continuous assessment and external examining offers the best way forward of assessing and testing the abilities and achievements of students.

It has been said that tomorrow's school will be a school without walls, built of doors which open to the entire community. It is in this context that I welcome the motion before the House and the initiative taken by the Minister so that all of us can benefit from a curriculum that is flexible, living and vital, meets the needs of our young people, takes account of the local and regional needs of the community and so that all of us can benefit from an examination system that is based on continuous assessment and external examining. The establishment of this board will be a major step in achieving these objectives.

In conjunction with the motion the work of the schools council for curriculum and examinations in the UK deserves careful study and consideration. This council was set up as an independent body in 1964 by the then Secretary of State for Education and Science. It reviews teaching methods, curricula and examinations actively and advises the Secretary of State on all aspects of educational policy. All sections of the education service are represented on this board and parents, employers and trade unions are also represented.

I take this opportunity to welcome the educational proposals contained in the Anglo-Irish joint study for promoting contacts and co-operation between the open university and the proposed distance study unit of the NIHE. I welcome the motion and wish the Minister well in his many tasks and duties.

I should like to join in the congratulations extended to the Minister of State on his appointment and wish him every success in his office, and in the congratulations extended to the Minister and the Government on the proposal to establish an independent curriculum and examination board. It is a very wise decision. The standard of debate has been very high and I look forward to the Minister's reply. The minister gave out many thought provoking ideas in his speech. Some Senators wondered why he was not more specific in what he said on some of the matters he referred to. I believe he did that purposely in order to stir Members to make contributions so that he would have the benefit of their opinions. He is to be commended for putting it to the House in that way. In the intermediate certificate examination report of 1974 it is stated that in 1924 the intermediate certificate catered for 4 per cent of that age group and in 1974 that 4 per cent has risen to 73 per cent.

With such a high percentage it is right that we should examine the curriculum and the examinations which test the progress made by the students under the curriculum. In addition to the numbers entering into the system we have the ever changing circumstances of life and developments in science and technology. Therefore, it is reasonable and right to expect that there should be a regular examination of the curriculum and examinations. The ICE Report states in relation to examinations:

They are the means by which society rewards the work done in schools, and it is incumbent on society to choose carefully the attainments which it rewards and the point at which these rewards are offered.

There is the system by which society rewards the work done in the schools.

I join with Senator Kennedy in paying tribute to teachers at all levels — primary, secondary and third level — for the great work they have done. If there is some criticism of the results achieved, it is by no means levelled at the teachers but at the curriculum. If we examine the overall results of the educational system under different headings we must conclude that we have been less than successful in some of our objectives. It was the objective at the foundation of the State that the Irish language be revived as the spoken language of the country and the educational system was geared towards attaining that. It has failed, and nobody can contend that our educational system has been a success in bringing about a vast increase in the number of people speaking in our native tongue. There are various views as to why it failed. In my opinion, it failed because of an over-emphasis on the written language rather than the spoken language. Too much effort was spent on increasing proficiency in the written language to the total neglect of the spoken language. The wrong thing was put first. Proficiency in the spoken language would ultimately have led to proficiency in the written language. We approached it the wrong way around. We had the stupid approach of trying to revive Irish by insisting that it was the only language for infants entering into the primary school, a language which was not the language of their homes and which gave them a dislike for the native language.

Admittedly after some years of bungling about at this level, it was decided to award some marks for oral in the leaving certificate. It should have been done 20 to 25 years ago. Even now the marks awarded for oral Irish are not high enough to encourage people to speak the language. The emphasis is on written Irish. There is the same approach to teaching a living language as was adopted in seminaries towards teaching dead languages, Latin and Greek. That approach insisted on written proficiency rather than the ability to speak the language, and it applies to the teaching of every language on the curriculum whether Irish, French or German. Whatever the living language there should be a greater emphasis on the spoken language and less on the written. Proficiency will come at a later stage. That was the reason why we did not reach our objective in the educational field on that score.

Our educational system is not turning out the skilled people that we want. About a year or so ago I read in the newspapers where the president of the FUE or somebody in that kind of position listed out 20 skills that were in short supply. He went on to point out that people with these skills had to be brought home from Britain to work in developing industries. It was good that we were taking our emigrants back home but it was a condemnation of our educational system that we were not prepared for this change in industrial development and were not turning out people from schools with the skills required for these industries.

It has failed to educate people that a higher standard of living cannot be expected by turning to a fairy godmother and asking her to produce higher standards and more opulence. We fail to understand that an increase and improvement in our standard of living are based solely and entirely on greater productivity. We have overdone the Santa Claus cult. We have a society where more and more of people expect gifts not just on Christmas morning but at least one day every week. There is a failure to realise that these handouts or goodies can come only from some other body and that they cannot be paid for all the time by borrowed money. They must be paid for by our production, and productivity. There is also a failure to interpret patriotism as anything other than violence. The way the history was taught through the years simply meant that a patriot more or less was a violent man and that if he was not a violent man he did not stand up to the standards of patriotism. Buying Irish goods, developing our country and helping to make it more attractive for tourists and so on are forms of patriotism which would build up the country as the years go on. In these ways the educational system has failed, not because of teachers but because we failed to examine the process regularly from time to time to ascertain whether or not it was turning out people with an understanding that a fair day's work is necessary if the industry in which they are employed is to succeed. Why have we the worst figure for absenteeism in all of the EEC countries? It is right that there should be a regular examination of the school curriculum to see if it turns out the kind of citizens we want and is sufficiently flexible to meet today's changing society.

I agree that the transition from primary to second level is an uneasy one. The vast majority of our pupils cannot take it in their stride and because of this it can cause distress. The experience of moving from lower to higher level brings fears to many students. If the transition is made difficult because there is not sufficient liaison between the last year of the primary school course and the first year of the second level course, that upsets the student. The transition from second level to university level can be an unhappy experience also, as indicated by the huge number of failures in the first year university examinations. An independent board could examine these matters with a view to smoothing out the transition period from one level to another and ascertaining the cause of the high failure rate in the first year of third level education. Perhaps the second level approach is not properly geared up to it. Something is wrong which causes great annoyance and frustration to hundreds or perhaps thousands of young people.

The ICE Report of 1974 states on page 29:

One striking feature of the present system is that most of the pupils who get an Intermediate Certificate do not need one, and most of the pupils who need a certificate do not get one.

That means that most of the students who get the intermediate certificate are going on to do the leaving certificate. The report states later that success in the intermediate certificate is no guarantee whatever of success in the leaving certificate because of the wide range in standard between the two. According to the report most of those who get the intermediate certificate are going on to a higher level anyway. They get the leaving certificate and the matriculation certificate and therefore there is no need to refer to the fact that they have the intermediate certificate. Those who are not, for one reason or another, going as far as the leaving certificate and finish school at intermediate certificate age or who have not the talent to pass this examination, leave school and have nothing to show for their years there. The report then goes on to state that many of those who get no certificate are likely to have skills or qualities which are of value to themselves and to society, and at present these skills or qualities go unrecognised. That is the kernel of the matter. We persist in pushing too many people towards academic attainment for which they are not qualified or geared — or where no vacancies exist if they are qualified — and we leave people who have other abilities without developing their potential to the fullest. We have gone off the rails here.

In other European countries greater emphasis is on producing skills and advanced technology. In a country like ours which is short of raw materials and so on, we should follow the example of Switzerland, a land-locked country, which found out years ago that the difficulty and the cost of importing heavy raw materials were so enormous as to make them uncompetitive. Instead they decided to develop skills to a high degree in the making of watches, barometers and so on where very little raw material was needed. They were successful and built up a great export trade. We should learn a lesson from that.

The expansion of vocational education has to a great extent undone the bad effects of the sort of education which we had previously and there is a growing emphasis on turning out skilled people. However, following recent work in Cavan and surrounding counties under the Youth Employment Scheme it was found that there was a shortage of block-layers and those people had to be taken in from Northern Ireland. That is another reflection on the type of education we provide. I hope that the result of the setting up of this independent board will be that education will be geared to turning out people with the skills which we need if we are to develop as an industrial country.

I refer now to the leaving certificate examination where a person's whole future is decided by his or her state of mind for a period of ten or 12 days. It poses a great strain and the nervous candidate will do less well than he or she would normally do. The parents worry lest their child will not get enough points to enter this or that faculty and the child's excitement is built up to the extent that he or she will not do himself or herself justice. There is also the uncertainty about which subject is going to be the hardest. Every year there is one subject which frightens everybody. The ICE report has something important to say about that too.

It states on page 24, paragraph 4.6.5 regarding the intermediate and leaving certificates:

It will be seen that there is a reasonable consistency within each subject over the period. The peak or modal grade seldom varies: Irish, for instance, consistently has the highest proportion of its candidates getting C grades. But there is variation from subject to subject. History and Geography consistently has its peak in the D grade.

That is the lowest grade.

And there is variation in the shape of the distribution. The ‘flattest' distribution is in Latin, where the peak (Grade C) accounts for only 22 per cent of candidates, while 10 per cent gain Grade A. Art, on the other hand, has the most ‘peaky' distribution, with 60 per cent in Grade D.

That is the lowest pass grade.

More significant still, the chance of getting an A grade varies from 1 in 250 for Higher Level English, to 1 in 10 for Latin!

With that sort of inconsistency it is not the slightest wonder that candidates for the leaving certificate are driven into a state of nerves. The chance of getting a high grade in English is one in 250 candidates and the chance of getting an A grade in Latin is one in ten. As these two subjects would tend to attract the more able students, the enormous difference in grading clearly reflects widely differing standards of judgment and this is what upsets the students. The report continues:

The proportion of failures is stable from year to year, but it is not stable from subject to subject.

The student thinks, "Last year history was the one that knocked down so many. I wonder what will it be this year. It could be geography, but history and geography are too closely allied so it will not be geography. It will be physics". The students are in a perpetual state of worry about which one paper is going to be so inordinately difficult or so widely removed from that of the year before. The proportion who fail the examination from year to year is stable but in the different subjects it fluctuates widely and that kind of uncertainty drives students to panic. They do not know when to expect a shocker of a paper, and tension builds up which is a source of worry not just for students but for their parents and teachers also. It is time to look for an alternative.

The alternative is some form of assessment. Admittedly that is going to be difficult to operate because the assessment could vary from school to school. At the same time if it does something to remove this tension and the dread of examination it would be worth while. A candidate may have very desirable qualities that an examination paper cannot measure but which a teacher is in a position to know. Suppose two candidates reach a certain standard, say D level or C level, and one of them reaches that level in spite of doing next to no work. As a matter of fact he is an idler and he is not likely to be very successful in life on merely the school curriculum which comes easy to him. He idles his way through and he gets grade C. The other fellow who has not the same gifts with a great deal of concentration of effort and application to work succeeds in bringing himself up to that standard. In my opinion the student who has to work like that to reach that level builds up qualities of concentration, perseverance and diligence that would mark that person out as a good citizen probably in later years, but there is no allowance for that in the intermediate, leaving or matriculation certificate examinations. That person is called a swot, a slogger or some other derogatory name by his pals in the school and there is no praise or encouragement in any shape or form to reward him for his work and develop his powerful characteristics.

If our education system trained people to apply themselves wholeheartedly for long periods to surmounting difficulties, then as a race we would be better than we are now when we are making life easier for the bright guys and making things more difficult for the student who is not so slick but who basically is of sounder fibre. That is where the examination system is wrong and that is why it turns out so many misfits.

This board, when set up by the Minister, will have to turn their attention to the development of career guidance. The ICE report on page 13 says:

From 1966, the extended syllabus for almost all subjects needs three years of study, and the pupil has to begin it almost immediately after entering post-primary school.

Consequently there is little or no time for experimentation or for identifying the special strengths of a pupil before he or she opts for six or more intermediate certificate subjects. That is another serious mistake. The teachers are confronted with the fact that the syllabus is so long and they have three years to complete it. The students are pushed into action immediately. From first day they must get down to the hard task of getting grades A, B, C or D in the intermediate certificate three years away. The teacher cannot possibly get the time to assess the merits, qualities and potential skills or weaknesses of a pupil who immediately is rushed into that course without any assessment or examination as to whether he or she is suitable for it. If there was more time for assessing the strengths and the weaknesses of a candidate it would be possible to guide him into a course where he would have success, and he would be less likely to be branded as a failure at the end of three years.

I am delighted that the Minister intends to have an examination of the whole process. This may sound like heresy to some people, but I think that it is possible to have different curricula in different parts of the country depending on the environment. I am not convinced that the curriculum for Dublin city should be exactly the same for west Donegal or Connemara or the midland counties. There should be some flexibility and an effort should be made to cater for the needs of an area taking into consideration its prospects, its strong industries, whether it is deep-sea fishing, solely agricultural and so on.

The last point I want to make in that regard is that the whole structure of education here caters very inadequately for agriculture. I approve of AnCO courses for the training of young technicians and in my experience these courses are doing a great deal of good. I welcome the provision for the retraining of relatively young people who have become redundant in one industry to qualify them for another industry, but I am amazed at the small number of seats in agricultural colleges in this agricultural country. It is next door to impossible for a young farmer who wants to do his second year in agricultural college to do so. Farming is changing as rapidly as any other industry on the face of the earth and our educational system for young farmers is wholly inadequate to prepare them to meet the rapidly changing world in years ahead. Therefore, I am delighted that the Minister has decided to set up this board to examine curriculum and examination structure. I wish him the height of good luck in his selection of people to serve on that board. I hope he will appoint people with the right outlook who will change the structures to suit the circumstances that will be changing in the years ahead. The effort must not be geared towards the advantage of a relatively small number of people. The whole emphasis of our educational structure must be to turn out as many useful citizens as we can. Some people are useful because they have the gift of brains, others are equally useful to society because of the dexterity of their hands. In the past we were inclined to forget that.

This motion in the joint names of the Leader of the House and myself:

That Seanad Éireann welcomes the Government's intention to establish an Independent Curriculum and Examinations Board.

has been placed before the House because it is in line with the joint Programme for Government 1981-86 which states on page 34:

The Government will establish an independent Curriculum and Examinations Board the terms of reference of which will include school assessment to supplement the exam system.

The motion includes the word "assessment" and it is to supplement, not to replace, the examination system. All Senators who have spoken so far have welcomed the idea put forward by the Minister in his speech that we should take a fresh look at the whole question of examinations.

In spite of all of its faults the yearly examination system has proved of some benefit in our school education programme at primary, post-primary, third and vocational levels and in the education in farming skills that my colleague Senator O'Brien mentioned. In any facet of education the yearly look at one's progress is of use, and it has its faults. The faults derive from inability in the past to have a common standard for monitoring the word "assessment" or for assessing how a pupil was developing in the educational programme up to and including school leaving age. With the leaving certificate, for example, the problem is that the examination has become more important than the educational programme and the certificate has become a passport to advancement.

The examination system, like any other system, can be manipulated. As the importance of the examination results increases so does the temptation to manipulate the system. For instance, the student can now use notes which are prepared by others to give him possibly an unfair advantage over those who try to work things out for themselves. Students thus become adept purveyors of secondhand ideas, and that is a pity. Except for the exceptionally gifted and articulate original thought effectively is discouraged in this process of the leaving certificate examination and the basic aims of education are undercut. Our focus is narrowed and the examination itself becomes the be-all and end-all. The artificial high results that can be achieved by these methods lower standards.

Senator O'Brien referred to the anxiety of students because of the variation in standards of different subjects in different years. There will be no change in our system until some of this pressure is taken off the leaving certificate. The third level points system should be abolished. The number of students entering third level education has increased in recent years but these students remain a minority of those who take the leaving certificate examination and it is unfair to the majority of the students that the course of their education should be determined by this system. The introduction of a matriculation examination to cover entry to third level colleges would be an excellent idea.

The leaving certificate has become debased, so to speak, which unfortunately tends to happen with such examinations when the results serve mainly as a qualification for other courses of study or certain areas of employment. Ideally the examination results themselves should not qualify a student for any situation in life and the onus of assessment of a student's ability should be on the consumer interest, on each firm, organisation, health board and so on who would hold their own form of examination and without much regard to marks achieved by the applicant in the leaving certificate examination. How relevant are very high marks obtained in the leaving certificate examination to the future of a nurse, for instance? Indeed, we have thousands of applicants from prospective student nurses and we use the leaving certificate marking as a norm to eliminate quite a lot of these people from the system of interview. Probably, many of the best potential nurses have to go elsewhere for their nursing training because our health boards have now adopted a high level of marking in the leaving certificate as a code to being granted an interview at least with a health board in any part of the country. This is unfair in a profession that admittedly needs a high standard of education but possibly not quite as high a marking as we use in the intermediate certificate examination.

A State examination as an institution has always existed to serve consumer interests whether those of higher education or of the public or private sector of our economy. Examinations have a social use also as a basic measure of ability or educational standard, but it is when they become directly linked to getting a job that the distortion that I have referred to occurs. Education then for its own sake means nothing. It is only a means to an end of an economic security. It is a pity if that is how our young children are going to progress and if that is what the existing system of education does to them.

The Minister's speech contained very little that was radical or new but it showed a very comprehensive understanding of the problems. I cannot think of anything that he has not touched on. I was impressed by the freshness and the clarity of his introductory speech. There may be many in the country who will accuse him of promoting change for the sake of change particularly in relation to the Curriculum and Examinations Board and of increasing rather than decreasing bureaucracy. I hope that this is not the case and that in the Minister's intention to set up this board we would not create another bureaucracy in education. This brings us particularly to the composition of the board. It is of paramount importance that the teaching profession, the educationalists and the inspectorate that we have already in our Department of Education, would be totally involved in this new board.

With the range of consumer interests so varied it is difficult to see how representation of the various sectors in the community who would benefit from this new type of curriculum board could be achieved correctly. It is probably true to say that the third-level institutes have a great deal in common with the various interests in the civil service and so on, but employers in the private sector should probably have a very wide spectrum of representation to meet their wide spectrum of requirements.

It might even be better to have an advisory board functioning through the inspectorate. That would eliminate the creation of the new structures that I would be worried about if they should become too bureaucratic. These questions and the paper generally need to be discussed fully not alone in this House but throughout the country in the various institutions of education. It might be useful to the Minister if when the motion passes through this House with our support he will encourage the setting up of seminars and various discussion groups in schools and in other areas of education so that the whole spirit of the Minister's intentions could be brought across to ensure that all of those involved would have the greatest possible input to the formation of this curriculum board.

I welcome the Minister's intentions and these long overdue proposals he has brought before the House. I congratulate him on moving so quickly on his appointment to take up this very long overdue reappraisal of the whole second-level structure of education.

I should like to deal with some of the practical sides of the curriculum and the examinations as I see them in the context of the everyday operations of school life. The present system has stood the test of time only, might I suggest, because there has been very little effort to change, replace or supplement it in the past. Education is everybody's business. Therefore the biggest problem I see in the implementation of the Minister's proposals is finance. I would hope that the proposal that is before us would be costed and financed very carefully before any attempt is made to implement it.

I would refer back to the very recent past in educational circles, back to 1967, to the introduction of free education. That was an overnight decision. It was revolutionary and was welcomed by all. But may I say that we still have many unwanted legacies from that decision with us today. I refer to the pre-fabs that are adjacent to practically every post-primary school in the country. With the introduction of free education we were promised new schools and very modern facilities such as language laboratories, physical education complexes and so on. But all of these were pushed into the background and we continue to cater for very greatly increased numbers who have sought the free education to which they are entitled, though we have neither the buildings nor the facilities to cater adequately for the type of education that students need.

I admire the patience not only of the teachers who are compelled to teach in those conditions but also of the management boards, the managers, the parents and pupils, all of whom 15 years on, continue in those conditions. Therefore, great care must be given to any quick introduction of the measures in question if the necessary finance is not forthcoming. It would be again the implementation of selected pieces so that it would not be the over-all scheme for which we would hope. Inbuilt into one of these changes that I would like to see coming is the provision to every school of a reasonable size, at least, for a remedial teacher. That is not so today. Schools which have such provision consider it a luxury. When we think of the intake of any school there is a very wide range of ability but teacher training, whether it be at vocational or secondary level, is not geared to that very wide range of pupil ability. Many of the Fagins we have within our schools are pupils who have come into the secondary or vocational system. The teachers are not able to cope with their demands and at the same time cater for the better student, the moderate student who is striving to achieve the very high requirements that are necessary to attain entry to many of our third level institutions.

I would appeal to the Minister not to overlook the matter of this provision and also to exclude from the embargo on public service appointments the provision of a remedial teacher to each post primary school or, failing that, at least in smaller centres where there are two or more small schools, one such teacher between them.

The leaving certificate seems to be all things to all men. It must provide the student with a reasonable standard of literacy and numeracy and with a reasonable chance of obtaining employment having received the reward. It must provide also a basis for selection to third level institutions. To say it has achieved all three would be a gross overstatement. Indeed, to say that it has succeeded in any one of those aims in particular would be to put a very narrow interpretation on it.

It is my belief that the leaving certificate is almost totally orientated towards third level entry. No regard is taken of the furtherance of educational needs on a personal base. This is very bad. When we hear that 17,500 people left formal education without an award in the recent past we have enough evidence of the failure of the leaving certificate. Many of these people who leave as drop-outs are lost altogether to the educational scene. Many may return to acquire at a later date what we term adult education. The facilities that are demanded in this particular field at the moment are evidence in themselves of the failure of the previous system.

Constant reference is being made by third level institutions to the very low standards of numeracy and literacy on the part of undergraduates. They have come up through the system and now having gone into the third level institutions are being more or less rejected as failures because of the standard of education they have received. There is a very great need, therefore, for change in the present system. Therefore, we welcome the Minister's intention on this particular line.

If one looks at the content of any subject at leaving certificate honours level — I refer in particular to the contents of the honours mathematics syllabus — one can see that it is almost totally geared for the further continuation of study at third level. It has very little relevance to the everyday needs and requirements of the mathematics that we need for everyday life. We must remember that when there is a change proposed in the content of any syllabus there is an opportunity for commercial sides to take advantage of the proposals. I refer, of course, to publishing companies who set about presenting a whole new range of books that are supposed to be the model answer to the curriculum concerned. If we only think for one moment of parents who have to meet the bill for books in any year for a student entering the leaving certificate course after the intermediate certificate we will realise that the average cost is something in the region of £40 plus. The many changes that have occurred in the past in some subjects have led to the introduction of an absolute rash of books, some of them catering for one particular part only of the syllabus. In some areas there has been overlapping. All of this has led to great costs. Sometimes one wonders whether it is the publishers or the printers who do that designedly to make sure that there is a continual process of output of books.

Another question is that of VAT on schoolbooks. Its removal would be a great advantage. In certain subjects where we do not have the text requirements, for example, like modern languages, we have to import the books. The price mark-up of any book on modern languages imported from Britain or the Continent has to be seen to be believed. It is not unusual for a book to cost £2 or £3 more here because of currency changes, VAT, import tax and so on. That question is always in the background. And we must consider it carefully when we are contemplating any change in subject content or in the curriculum or examination system.

Regarding the flexibility of the syllabus, this would not lead to an urban versus a rural situation. We have, within our present system, catered for that adequately. What the Minister has in mind could be very carefully implemented in, for instance, a subject like geography. There is a local input by way of a particular portion of the paper having a section in which questions of local content may be included. I would like to see a continuation and even an expansion of that policy into other subjects, such as history. In that way what seems to be the irrelevancy of many of those subjects could be eliminated. I think it was Senator O'Brien who mentioned the importance of local industry. There is great room for innovation in this particular aspect of the proposal.

On the question of flexibility again, we now have an opportunity to broaden the subject range so as to make it relevant to the needs of society today. I am thinking particularly of health education which is so urgent today. A vacuum is created where a student or a pupil who is cared for under the health schemes in the primary school transfers to the secondary or vocational school. There is no provision for Education in this sphere except where a caring, or a very enthusiastic or very enterprising teacher takes it upon himself, in his own time, to give students some grounding in the basics of health education. What has crept into our system in the present day is that particular groups come to a school presenting themselves as the ideal kit, as it were, for giving a crash course in health education. I am indeed suspicious of many of their intentions. I only want to remind the House and maybe the Minister to take note of the fact that throughout the country there are groups going around presenting a case under the guise of its being broadly based within the heading of health education which too often they present in a very stark and graphic way, an aborted foetus, thereby frightening a very young group who have not been presented with the facts properly. The age group at whom this sort of campaign is aimed has not been selected carefully. It is not just anti-abortion that these people are concerned with. Rather, it is to further their own aims in other aspects that they present at the grand slam their own particular way by glibly suggesting alternatives to abortion. It is these alternatives that the Department of Education must take note of and provide what might be termed broadly health education. Certainly what is very badly needed is sex education within that health education structure.

As one who has taught in the system in England I can see the very retrograde steps that were taken there by the implementation of the exact things which I have mentioned here and which has led to unfortunate experimentation by inquiring minds with disastrous results for both pupils and school and the whole system at large. Indeed the Minister, soon after his appointment as Minister for Education referred to this question when he made reference to the alarmingly increasing numbers of girls who find themselves in very unfortunate situations within the large urban areas while still of school-going age. I hope the Minister takes into consideration the facilities that are available through the health boards and through parents and all those concerned with education, and that he will utilise that opportunity to come up with a very serious and very necessary health education programme to be incorporated in the whole structure giving it its rightful place in the educational process.

Much has been said about the transition from primary to post-primary school level. The original concept of the transitional year was brought into the educational system by a former Coalition Minister, Deputy Burke. He thought of the transitional year — and rightly — being the year, post-intermediate certificate, pre-leaving certificate. The unfortunate thing about that concept was that it was free to a school to adopt it or not in providing a six-year cycle for post-primary education. All schools were encouraged to participate in it but very few did take up the offer. There were many reasons for that. It was a pity that it was not made part of the overall system in which every school rather than a few would participate. I say this from first-hand knowledge, because my own school was one of the first to participate in that scheme. There were many teething problems with it: not least among them were the financial problems that arose because of the innovative nature of it. The projects that were in mind were very broad-based — the encouragement by the school of work-based activities, media activities and perhaps a social input into the society around them. Many of these required extra financing but unfortunately that was not made part and parcel of the system as it was then. As the scheme was, because of its very flexible nature — there was no compulsion concerned though I have reservations about that word — but the fact that it was available to all schools but was not taken up by all of them has led to the great misunderstanding that has arisen with regard to this transitional year.

I hope that in revising the whole structure of the curriculum and the examinations system the transitional year, as originally envisaged, will be expanded and encouraged more, if not, in fact, made actually a part of the whole system. The fact that many of the subjects that were treated within the wide scope and the broad-base which that year had were not examination subjects led to its being ignored in many instances. In addition it came at a time when there was a break between intermediate certificate, which was categorised as one step along the line before going into the leaving certificate year, gave a great opportunity for students to become that little bit more mature. Very often students taking the intermediate certificate were very immature to take a decision to go along a particular line and a choice of subjects which would gear them for the choice of opportunity that they intended at that stage. It gave them the opportunity to stop and think and to see where they were going.

I hope that if the introduction of a transition year is envisaged it will be retained at that level rather than at the level of the younger age group at entry into it. It has been suggested that it might be introduced at the pre-entry age but this is an indication that the entry age from primary schooling into secondary schooling is far too young. That in itself might have very important connotations in the present system. If pupils were coming in at a very early age, the holding point should be at the post-intermediate, pre-leaving certificate year where they might get the opportunity to re-assess where they are going.

Another point I would like to make in this context concerns the recognition of equity within the post-primary branch. That does not exist today. There is a differentiation between grants paid to one type of school compared with another. There is a differentiation between the salary paid to one teacher in a particular category of school in contrast with another. There is room here for the standardisation, not only of the grants payable to each type of school, whether it be vocational, secondary, secondary private, ordinary secondary, comprehensive or community school. This measure gives the Minister an opportunity to standardise all these matters.

I would suggest also that this is an ideal time to give the practical subjects a real standard within the educational system. By that I mean that they would be given matriculation recognition, similar to any other subject taken at leaving certificate standard. I am thinking particularly of the very important subject of home economics, which for some reason is excluded from the matriculation group of subjects. I hope that that situation will be rectified and that equal standing and status be given to every subject within the educational system.

Senator O'Brien mentioned certain subjects and the decline in the number of the pupils taking them. Here I suggest that the fact that we had some subjects in a privileged position — this has changed over the years — whether it was for getting dual points for attainment of certain standards in maths or as in the past, getting dual points for Irish was a retrograde step. In the case of Irish the situation was that we wanted to encourage its wider use and encourage higher standards within the subject of Irish taken at leaving certificate. I would not be too sure that it achieved that result. Indeed, I would be doubtful if it attained its goal in that particular aspect.

To give any subject a privileged position like that, giving it dual points, is unjustifiable in a system where we have subjects in competition with each other or by choice. It naturally gives more able students an added advantage if they specialise. The idea of spending time at a particular subject to work out the particular problems is an unjustifiable defence of that subject.

Agriculture as a subject in the leaving certificate is not a very popular subject. I cannot understand why because so many of the people who go through the second level process turn to agriculture. It is a pity, apart from the practical experience that they may gain as sons and daughters of a farming community, that they are not given through the educational system a greater opportunity to increase their knowledge in that particular line. It is a pity that Latin and some of the other subjects are declining in popularity. I do not know what steps might have to be taken to rectify that situation. I would hope a way will be sought by changing the content of the syllabus, to make it more attractive again.

It has been agreed that we break for tea from 5.30 to 6.30. I propose that the sitting be suspended until 6.30 p.m.

Sitting suspended at 5.30 p.m. and resumed at 6.30 p.m.

Before the sitting was suspended I was coming near the end of my contribution and I was talking about the attractiveness and the decline in attractiveness of certain subjects. I said I hoped in the case of one particular subject, Latin, that it would take its place once more, that the syllabus contents would be changed to make it attractive, and re-establish itself as an alternative or a choice of subject within the choice available at leaving certificate standard. For various reasons it has declined in recent times.

I come to another point that I want to make. I will finish on this particular one. It is the whole question of sponsorship within education. It is a topic which has had little examination in the past. With the exception of semi-State bodies, unfortunately, like Aer Lingus, AnCO and some other semi-State bodies there has been little contribution from industry towards education at second level. I hope that the opportunity will arise to facilitate industry by means of giving them the opportunity of greater input. Industry is getting the greatest return from education because from the education system come all the entrepreneurs and the workers in industry.

I hope that some scheme with the over-all guidelines and proposals is made available to encourage industry at large, both private and semi-State, to have a greater input into education, whether by way of scholarship, sponsorship or even the provision of very much required facilities within the educational system. Indeed, with the exception of the competition element that they have provided, little has been forthcoming from industry to date.

The question of assessment and continuous assessment has been often mentioned. I believe firmly that assessment has one aspect to show, that is, not on the side of the final achievement, but on the personal qualities. I believe that if there was any great increase in the recognition of that there might be a danger as is the case at present where assessment is established as part of the educational system in the primary level.

I believe that much of the work has been done on a personal level. These certificates of assessment that come are, by and large, disregarded because nobody, who has a personal connection with a person, will assess that person and turn him or her down, or highlight the less attractive attributes of a particular pupil. There is the danger that if assessment became a weighted part of the system in the future many undesirable attributes and elements would be incorporated in the overall end. For instance, in a particular case what might be termed a troublesome student might become the scapegoat for resentment or some other attribute that some teachers might have in the educational system. There is a danger that that might be extended and maybe would be harmful to the reward that the pupil might get at the end of the day.

Finally, I believe that the curriculum is the central issue in any educational policy and that the curriculum up to the sixties was primarily academic. It changed them by a move for the encouragement of scientific orientated subjects. That change is with us again in so far as we are going overboard again in a fit of madness to the computer-orientated aspect and highlighting that. I know it is time for a change, I welcome the proposal that the Minister has brought in. I hope that these changes will come soon.

This motion calls on Seanad Éireann to welcome "the Government's intention to establish an independent curriculum and examinations board". In his address to this House on 29 October the Minister for Education stated that this was one of the commitments given in the Coalition Document Programme for Government 1981-1986. On the face of it, the establishment of such a board would appear to be a very commendable idea. However, in view of the way in which the Minister has set about implementing some of the other commitments which were contained in that same programme, I have serious reservations about this motion. To illustrate what I mean I will refer briefly to just two of the other commitments in regard to education which were contained in the programme for Government and to the way in which they are being implemented. That document stated that priority would be given to primary education through the systematic reduction of average class numbers. This appeared to be a commitment which I am sure every Member of this House would have been prepared to welcome unreservedly if we were asked to do so by way of a motion such as the one before us this evening.

Let us look at the way in which the Minister has set about implementing that commitment. He has, through the issue of the infamous Circular 24/81, changed the regulations governing the enrolment of pupils in primary schools in order to bring about a reduction in the numbers of such pupils so as to create the illusion of an improved teacher-pupil ratio. At this stage, there are very few people in the country——

An Leas-Chathaoirleach

There is another motion further down on the Order Paper.

I want to make the point about the way in which this commitment has been implemented. I am saying very little more about it. There is hardly anybody in the country who has not heard at this stage of Circular 24/81. I will have a lot more to say about it when we reach the other motions, Motions Nos. 9 and 10 on the Order Paper. It is sufficient to say at this stage that nobody on reading the simple commitment that was given in the programme for Government could possibly have anticipated the approach which has been adopted to implement it. The other commitment to which I want to refer is the commitment to abolish corporal punishment in schools.

An Leas-Chathaoirleach

That does not arise on this motion.

The Minister referred to it in his address.

An Leas-Chathaoirleach

He may have. A passing reference only to any of those matters would be in order.

I only want to make a passing reference to the commitment to abolish corporal punishment. The commitment is one which I am sure everyone in the House would be prepared to welcome provided that corporal punishment was replaced by suitable alternative arrangements for the maintenance of school discipline. This is not being done. That is the point I want to make.

We do not know how this commitment to establish the independent curriculum and examinations board will be implemented. Before I could welcome the establishment of a curriculum and examinations board I would need to know a lot more than I do at present about what the Minister may have in his mind. I would need to know how independent such a board would be, what its terms of reference will be. I would need to know how it will be constituted and I would need to be satisfied that the reform of the examination system and the introduction of a national matriculation examination will not be used as a device to limit access to higher education, to achieve economies in the higher education grants scheme, or indeed, to relieve the Government of their obligation to provide a substantial increase in student places in the third level institutions. If the proposed national matriculation examination is to be used as the basis for the selection of students for higher education, I assume that it will also be used as the basis for determining academic eligibility for higher education grants.

In view of the degree to which the educational policy is subservient to economic policy in the priorities of the present Government, I would need a lot of convincing that the changeover to a national matriculation examination would not be used for the purpose of seriously curtailing the availability of higher education grants. It is suggested that a national matriculation examination would reduce the pressure on students but I am not satisfied that it would have any such effect, because as long as there is competition for places in courses in third level education there will always be pressure on those who are competing for such places. Such an examination would increase the pressure on students if it were taken in the same year as the leaving certificate. If it is taken a year later, as was suggested by the Minister, there will be further problems of who will be eligible to sit for it and under what conditions. This is not to say that the present examination system does not need to be reviewed.

The idea of introducing a new intermediate type of examination at the end of junior cycle in second level schools has much to recommend it. The Minister referred to the question of curriculum alignment. This is an area which needs urgent examination. The junior cycle curriculum for second level schools should be compatible with the new curriculum for primary schools. It should allow the same freedom and flexibility.

As far as the leaving certificate is concerned a restructuring of the existing examination combined with the review of existing syllabi might be preferable to the introduction of a new examination which could create more problems than it would solve. A review of the syllabi is needed more urgently in the area of science than in any other aspect of the curriculum. Many of the employment opportunities which will be available to our young people in the years ahead will require science-based skills. Science courses which lack relevance or which have an inadequate practical content will do little to equip our young people to exploit the tremendous opportunities which the new high technology industries can present. It is important to ensure that we are not equipping this year's pupils with last year's skills. At all levels it is easy to argue for the inclusion of new topics in the school curriculum but it is difficult to find a consensus on what should be thrown overboard to make place for such new topics. I would like to see included in both the junior and senior cycle curricula a general course for all pupils which would encompass many of the topics which have been mentioned, such as civics, political education, human relationships and consumer education. Perhaps progress and achievement in such a course could be gauged by methods other than the traditional type examinations.

I would like to refer to the training and in-service education of teachers. Over the years the teachers' unions have been pressing for the establishment of a professional teaching council, usually referred to as An Chomhairle Múinteoireachta, a body which would have advisory and statutory professional functions. It should be the body which would advise the Minister and the relevant institutions on all matters pertaining to the recruitment, supply, training and education, both pre-service and in-service, of all teachers at first and second level. It would also act as a professional body for the registration of all teachers at these levels with power to ensure proper standards. Such a body should be established at the earliest possible date. The Minister referred to the problems which have arisen in regard to teacher supply in such areas as woodwork and metalwork. Such problems could be avoided if we had An Chomhairle Múinteoireachta.

The final point I want to make is the real test of the Minister's and the Government's commitment to education. That is the financial provision they are prepared to make for the development of our educational system. Lip service to educational development and fine words are no substitutes for the investment of resources. The Minister realises this just as well as I do and in his speech to this House at column 513 of the Official Report of Thursday, 29 October 1981 he referred to the Government's commitment towards educational development. He went on to say:

The proof of this commitment has been seen in the specific exclusion of teachers from the general embargo on recruitment in the public service, and in the appointment of 300 additional primary school teachers to enable the pupil-teacher ratio to be reduced.

It is hard to reconcile that statement with the fact that in the current year the intake of students into colleges of education is down by 180 on last year. In my view teachers are recruited when they are accepted into the colleges of education. Therefore, recruitment of teachers has suffered seriously under the present Government. The 300 additional primary school teachers, to whom the Minister referred were recruited three years ago by the last Government for the purpose of reducing the pupil-teacher ratio in what up to now was regarded as the recognised way of doing so. It is difficult, also, to reconcile the statement which I have just quoted with the Minister's decision to reduce access to education for the first time in the history of the State. As I have said, I have serious reservations about the motion before the House.

I would like to welcome the Government's intention to establish an Independent Curriculum and Examinations Board. The fact that I welcome it does not mean that I am going to bring any expertise to it. I got up on the basis of an interested party who has been looking at the consequences of the educational system over the years. I have a few comments to make about how the system functions.

The present system of control in the schools in the Republic seems to assume both diversity and public control. I doubt if there is any public control of the curriculum in the true sense. That poses the question as to whether there should or should not be. The primary schools are concerned with teaching the three Rs. In the secondary schools there is a range of subjects which can be taken in public examinations. What is most apparent is the variation between schools. In secondary schools there is a very high level of tolerance of extreme attitudes and techniques among teachers. You do not get that in the primary schools. There is little channel for the farming-in of ideas to the curricula. In the case of people who have some argument against the way the curriculum is functioning in any school, whether it is primary or secondary, they have the opportunity of removing their children from the school, but that is not the answer to it. The real answer is that we should proceed the way we are proceeding now and see that all interested parties get an opportunity of looking at the curricula. It might not be wise to give parents a say in the curriculum while it might be a good thing to give them a say in the running of the school. It can be argued that the inspectorate look after their interests. Do they really? I believe the inspectors are there as advisers to the teachers and it is the teachers and not the parents or the interested people outside that they look after. From my observations as an outsider — I am not claiming to be an expert — because inspectors are more in an advisory capacity to the teachers this does not seem to do anything for the public. The inspector is not a public watchdog.

I was encouraged, in reading the Minister's speech, that the emphasis is to change in this particular area, but it does not do so in paragraph 3 in column 518, but if one reads further one comes across it. The Minister goes on to talk with great emphasis about other interested groups and particularly the composition of the board. This is very interesting for me. I cannot see any clear evidence of the right to feed in or through what institutions this is done. This is encouraging.

I do not know if this is totally relevant. I believe there is a relevance. I refer to the question of the procedural channels for the manager of the schools through the education authority. They lead to some sort of conflict and it is probably unnecessary conflict. It is possibly between the teachers and the authority that the conflict arises. In reading through the Minister's speech, from my own slight knowledge of the area, it seems to me that he has outlined in his general approach to education and related matters that a lot of those difficulties will be removed.

There is also the view by parents that in circumstances the curriculum is not being properly exercised. This is not a charge made by me because I do not know sufficient about it, but it seems that there is a belief that those who have an interest in schools should have their interests represented. When I went on to try to develop it I thought that the parents should not have an input. There is a view that parents should have an input. The view came across to me that locally elected politicians should have an input into the question of the improvement in curricula. There is opptortunity for work participation in the management of schools but it is not clear if there is any say in the question of extra curricular activities. I do not know if the Minister's speech goes far enough to take care of that point.

If you are going to talk about changing the curriculum in a desire to see that there is a steady onward flow of the system of education in a very organised, well structured way, you then have to start thinking about the question of how the people in the inner cities relate to the other people and the opportunities they have. You do it not so much in the sense that you make the charge that they are denied the opportunity but in the sense that you want to know what is the reason there is under attainment by people who come from inner city homes. It is argued from time to time that it is the environmental background which is at fault and that in the middle class situation you have a good home, good surroundings and, generally speaking, the family atmosphere is very good and conducive to good learning. If there are reasons why people in the inner city have not got the same attainment as others when they go to university what is the cause of it and is there anything we can do in the curriculum to put that right?

We are in the process of reforming the curriculum, which is all very interesting. When talking about changing the curriculum Senator Mullooly mentioned finance. I can see a lot of merit in the argument: If you are going to talk about changing something that costs money where is the money going to come from and what sort of suggestions do you see for it? That is a fair question, but I would be more interested, with regard to finance, if there is a change in expenditure per pupil, in measuring that against the increases in the curricula.

The question of trade union education has never been tackled by the educational authorities. What happened was that in a very slight way about 25 years ago the trade union movement tried some sort of educational activities and they had advisory councils and so on. The industrial relations college in Ranelagh was the major body in this country for teaching trade union participation. There is a need in the educational system, even with a slight beginning at primary level, to start talking about this area of trade union education, trade unions and the law. I am not suggesting that we start talking about the law in primary schools but it should be leading into it. We should talk about social and industrial legislation and then talk about the problems of collective bargaining and conditions of employment. As a trade union official I have dealt with people who come into management not necessarily managers who come into industry, and they spend the first year or year-and-a-half being carried by ordinary workers who have got the experience rather than the theory. There are all sorts of problems in dealing with people with regard to trade union relations. Those people will take up positions in industry and they do not get the full grasp of what it is all about. Consequently, about a year or a year-and-a-half of the time of the company is wasted. They get into areas of conflict which need not have happened.

The Church did a great job not only in teaching but in providing schools. We should not forget that. I would not agree with the way they go about the teaching but their involvement has been an exceptionally good thing for the country. It is something we can value and look forward to in the future.

I saw a television programme last night about the events that are happening in the school areas. The programme did not interest me very much but it took me back to something I read many years ago about an experience in Glasgow. They were dealing with the question of overcrowding and they were short of teachers. Somebody is going to say that is not going to be a problem here but the fact was they ran into this problem. Arising out of that, the educational authority came up with the idea of television for teaching purposes. They linked 350 schools to a closed circuit system and lessons in mathematics and French were broadcast. Despite the fact that it was planned to meet the crisis of a shortage of teachers, it was a phenomenal success. The results were in fact a whole treasury of techniques and materials. It turned out to be a wonderful success and in the end the programme was expanded into lessons in geography, science, local history, commerce, religion and so on. The whole project was so good that the Inner London Educational Authority copied the method. They copied this method of closed circuit television which channels programmes exclusively to sets that are linked by cable from the schools to a TV centre.

When I read the article seven or eight years ago it stated that they taught over one million children in about 1,000 schools. The subjects they were teaching in London were creative writing, drama, chemistry, health, commerce, geography, history, career guidance and so on. It seemed to most of the people who had to assess whether it was of any value or not that it was a logical thing to do. It was an extension of the classroom, it satisfied a purpose and it led to logical, creative thought. The question of whether it depersonalised the relationship between the teacher and pupil was also examined, but most of the teachers said it did not. The view was that it gave an added stimulus to the curriculum and that it introduced new subjects. It developed to the extent that in Glasgow they started to teach French to children in primary school. The question was asked whether it would replace teachers and the answer they came up with there was that all it was doing was extending and enriching the whole process of education. That is very interesting.

I said I did not know a lot about education but as an outsider looking in it seems that the curriculum is so important to many people that it is close enough to being a covenant. It is a covenant between the interested parties, between the teachers, the inspectors and so on. I do not think that we will ever see the day when it will be for teachers alone. The Minister said he would seek assistance from interested parties and he asked the Seanad if Members had any ideas on the matter.

I do not know how far you can go with a curriculum or what you can do with it but I believe the relationship between middle-class and working-class people should be examined with regard to changing the curriculum. If the balance is wrong — I am not talking about the economic question, I am talking about the social question, the social opportunities — we have an obligation to redress it. There is no point in having a curriculum which allows only some people to progress through it right up to university, with everything looking lovely, while others because of the bad environment in which they live, with very few opportunities to study well, are always going to be down the scale. We will have to see if the curriculum can be adjusted in any way to satisfy their needs. There is no basis for arguing that one class in society has a higher degree of intelligence. Intelligence is there in the working classes but there is evidence that where working-class people get an opportunity to go to university they have a greater failure rate than the people in the middle classes. It has nothing to do with their intelligence. It is a question of incentive and inducement: the curriculum might be a factor, even though all the financial social problems will not be solved. The curriculum in the pre-primary system could be examined. The child living in a bad environment has not the same opportunities to study as has the more advantaged child and perhaps the pre-primary school would help that child to adjust to the school environment and thus meet other children on an equal basis when he enters primary school. It is regrettable but it does happen that there is a difference in attainment between the middle class people and the working class and what the academics describe as under-achievement. I am not suggesting that any of these comments are the answer or the solution. I am just putting them forward as my contribution and I hope they will be of some value to the Minister because he asked us for our views in the matter.

The question of the pupil-teacher ratio was also raised. I do not know if there is any proposal that the curriculum should deal with the leisure area. In the case of graduates, of people who have become doctors or architects, should we develop our educational process to deal with leisure studies? It is all part of the educational process but to be honest I am particularly anxious about the working classes. The way society is geared, there is no way in which I can make their case strongly enough. If we had real equality in the case of housing and so on, then we might not be talking in this vein about education. But I have to make the plea. They are working-class people. They are my people. It is my area of life. The way I went through school myself was tough and very difficult. There is a desire on the part of the working classes to study. They want to improve, they want to get on but all the social problems are there. At least, we should ask if consideration of the curriculum could help in some way, particularly with regard to the inner city study groups. Alternatively, we should consider if something could be done at the pre-primary stage to assist children whose parents are in the lower income groups, in preparing them to take their rightful place in society and in giving them the same opportunities as everyone else in this society.

Like the vast majority of contributors to this debate, I wish sincerely to welcome this initiative by the Minister and his commitment and undertaking to the establishment of an independent curriculum and examinations board.

I welcome it because like so many other contributors here I think it is something which is long overdue. I see it as a vehicle with great potential which, hopefully, will take a long hard look at our educational programme, at our curriculum and last, but certainly by no means least, at our examinations system. I anticipate radical changes in its discharge of its very important role, as the moulder and the charter of the future educational course of the children of this nation.

I believe, and I hope, that the Minister's initiative will stimulate a great debate outside this House. For that reason I believe the Minister should listen and take cognisance of the very many different interested parties who have a very vital input to make into this important area. A number of groups have been taking a keen and active interest in this area already. I commend in particular the thoughts already processed by many of the teaching unions and the ideas being developed by such groups as the Irish Association for Curriculum Development. The new curricular programmes of such groups as the social and environmental studies project developed at Shannon comprehensive school, the Department of Education's own Irish studies and new cúrsa Gaeilge programme and the ISCIP and humanities project of the TCD-VEC curriculum development unit. I am happy, therefore, at the Minister's initiative because I feel that if the debate is given ample scope to develop it can develop into a full and thorough appraisal of our educational system and programme, its merits, demerits, its strong points and its shortcomings, its advantages and its failures in order to maximise the potential of an educational programme.

Before I become critical of our educational system I want to stress that I cast absolutely no reflection whatever on the teachers who are the agents and who implement the programmes which have been designed by others, and who for generations have been carrying out conscientiously this assignment to the very letter. If we accept that the common denominator aim of education is the development of each individual pupil to realise his full educational capacity and to develop all his many talents and faculties so that he will realise his full potential, then this obviously begs the question, has our educational system done this in the past and does it do so at present? It is highly questionable if in the past our educational curriculum provided the scope for individual development, and I submit that if it has failed in the past then it doubly fails at present.

The sad fact is that apart from minor additions here and there and minor internal modifications from time to time, very little real or positive change has occurred since the present post primary curriculum was devised many years ago. The range of subjects has remained largely unchanged and the subject content has changed very little. Certainly texts have come and texts have gone, new but still limited aspirations have been written into the curriculum and programme for post primary schools, but the underlying defect remains all the time. The realisation of these grandiose aims is well nigh impossible because the scope of the subjects, the methodology employed and the examination system itself ensure that this cannot happen.

Education is not merely the acquisition or assimilation of knowledge. It is the usage and the application of this knowledge, the knowledge is not knowing that but rather knowing how. If we accept that children have different aptitudes, different interests and abilities then, realistically speaking, we have to accept on analysis that our educational system does not cater for these. Our curriculum is largely rigid and inflexible and cannot seriously be regarded as catering for all aspects of a child's personality or his different interests and abilities. The advocates of the present curriculum may well point the finger and argue the point that, by and large, we have managed to produce citizens who are conforming and law-abiding. I humbly submit that the credit for such must go to the parents, the guardians and the teachers of those children who have managed to imbue their protégés with their own innate sense of moral values.

On my part I would like to see a curriculum which would allow each child to develop his or her full dimensions — dimensions in the moral, social, spiritual, aesthetic and cultural senses. I would like to see a proper blend between the academic and the technical, between the mental and the physical, between the theoretical and the practical. We must take cognisance of the fact and acknowledge that our curriculum at present does not provide for this. It falsely assumes that each child entering post primary school has a relatively average level of intelligence, a similar background in education and an equal capacity to cope. It is totally subject-centred and emphasises above all else the mastery of facts. Rote learning is its dominant feature. It is still true that someone endowed with a reasonably good memory can emerge from the system very high up on the honours list. Therefore, it presumes far too much and pursues a far too limited range of objectives. Surely in a rapidly changing society objectives must change as well. In this rapidly changing society it is questionable whether such objectives are suitable for a society undergoing rapid social, economic and technological developments. I do not think that anybody can seriously claim that our educational system equips our young people to cope with the pluralism in values and beliefs, with inter-personal relationships or with moral decision making. It singularly fails to develop positive attitudes towards industry and agriculture. It fails to cultivate initiative, personal responsibility or the development of an inquiring mind.

It is a sad fact of life that in this country 10 per cent of those children who sit on the benches of post-primary schools this very day are incapable of following the subject range with which they are confronted. It is a fact of life that because of examination pressure on teachers and the consequent pressure to cater for the majority, these children are consigned to the educational scrap-heap at the back of the class. It is a sad indictment that these pupils will come off the educational conveyor belt, disenchanted, demoralised and labelled as failures for the rest of their lives. A proper educational system would seek out the aptitudes of these children, would identify them, would nurture them, would cater for them and would cultivate them. Our system manifestly fails to do this. We pay lip-service to the ideal of cherishing all our children equally. Yet our physically handicapped, whose intelligence quotient is at least on a par with those of ordinary children, have to be catered for in special schools for the physically disabled when modifications, and in some cases minor modifications, of existing school buildings would enable them to integrate and become part of the existing school setup.

We finance those who have the mental capacity to educate themselves and who without any educational system would get along all right while, at the same time, the education of the mentally handicapped has to be funded from flag days and the mendicant advocates of the rights of these people. We buy time by trying to determine which category a mentally handicapped child falls into. Is it the responsibility of the Department of Education or the responsibility of the Department of Health?

I believe that the Minister has a unique opportunity to have his name written into the annals of this country by having the curriculum for these children — the mentally handicapped children — improvised and re-examined and the facilities for the implementation of these findings generously funded. How ludicrous it is that in our present educational structure the newspaper which chronicles the world of today and tomorrow and is a political, economic, social and sporting history, finds absolutely no place in the classroom. How nonsensical it is that civics which has a potential for so much is tolerated and slotted in generally only in the first year and only when the other subjects have all been accommodated. What a role an imaginative civics course could play in instigating changes in society and in mitigating one of the scourges of today — vandalism. I am not talking about the five, six or 12-year old vandals, the kids who go around defacing walls. I am referring particularly to sophisticated vandalism of the so-called responsible adults who will sit on Tidy Towns Committees and beg to advise others and then pilfer flowers or shrubbery from public places, who dump their cardboard refuse half a mile out the road or discharge toxic effluent and kill half the wild life in a river.

If we accept that language is primarily a vehicle for oral communication, then we must agree that the non-cognisance of this fact in our schools has absolutely murdered our national tongue. In this respect I lay the blame squarely on the over-emphasis on formal Irish grammar and on the over-usage of texts. Surely in language teaching oral proficiency should come first and should provide the window to the literature which must come at a later stage. The same thing applies to modern languages as well. We have replaced Latin with French and Greek with German, but they are still treated as if they were dead languages.

A number of years ago a certain inspector was drafted into the Department of Education, into the vocational educational branch at Talbot House, and introduced many innovations in relation to audio-visual and audio-lingual teaching. When it became costly she, too, was consigned to her own particular slot in the Department and of late the amount of funding for this area has been minimal. It is generally acknowledged by third level science teachers that students are handicapped at present by the science subjects as taught in second level institutions. In many cases science students in universities would have been far better off without the academic treatment of science in second level schools. It is true that a majority of pupils emerge knowing little about life and knowing less about living because they are too sheltered and they are too coccooned. I honestly believe that many of the St. Patrick's and St. Teresa's and other psychiatric institutions would not be filled chock-a-block as they are at present if these pupils at second level were taught something about life. It is incumbent upon the teacher and the Department of Education to devise a curriculum in order to expose them to some of the harsh realities of life that will face them in later years.

Of all the areas of education perhaps the whole area of examinations is the one that contains the greatest injustice of all and I call for radical changes in this area. It is absolutely nonsensical and ridiculous that a 20-hour examination in the middle of June, after five years of post-primary education, should be the final arbiter as to a pupil's future. Absolutely no cognisance whatever is taken of any other talent or personality development that might perchance have occurred during those five years.

I know that the changes in question will demand money but it is expenditure and investment that will prove very worth while. For my part I favour the open book approach. I know that many traditionalists will frown upon this, but what is wrong with the student bringing in a portfolio of work that he has diligently put together over a period of time, and intelligently using this for examination purposes? It is far more meritorious than learning something off by heart and reproducing it in time on examination day. Coupled with this type of open book examination, I strongly advocate ongoing assessment. Again, it is going to be a costly operation, but in terms of reward in true educational content it is something that will prove well worth while.

The Minister has initiated something that has marvellous potential. He has a unique opportunity to stamp his name in the record books of this country. I ask him to consult all the various interests involved. There is quite a lot of expertise floating around. I urge him not to make any decisions until a thorough reappraisal of what we can do has been made.

I share the view of the previous speaker that the Minister earlier last week opened a debate of immense public importance. There is no other area where the concept of needs can be expanded so much. The quest for knowledge is almost limitless and the extent to which children can have assistance from people in that quest for knowledge is also limitless. We have to look at the amount the Government are spending in the educational sphere as one of the criteria in assessing what is the scope for reform. At present the State spends about 7.5 per cent of national income on education, but in the past ten years that spending has increased to two-and-a-half times what it was. We are talking about a really rapidly growing area of education. We have tonight a real opportunity to scrutinise what is being achieved by that massive increase in spending.

Looking through the Estimates volume there is no doubt in my mind that public resources are being divided very unequally among different people going through the educational system. For example, the student who leaves school at 15 years of age costs the State £6,000 for his whole education. The pupil who goes on to do the leaving certificate costs £7,500 but the pupil who goes on to university costs £17,000, an immensely greater investment than in the early leaver. Not only does the child who leaves school early enjoy fewer years but each year costs only half the amount of the person who stays the full course of education. There is an enormous privilege given to people who get the opportunity to go right through the system. The extent to which people get through the system is quite small. About 12 per cent nationally go to university whereas about one-third drop out at 15 years of age. It may seem that this is as it should be, that only a restricted number of people are clever enough to get through and take on university education. But what we discover if we look at the data on the matter is that far from being a system for picking out the cleverest and the most able people, there is clear evidence that the education system is picking out for advancement those who come from better-off homes.

For example, from unskilled and semi-skilled homes where parents are in that class of employment, 3 per cent get to university and 80 per cent drop out at the age of fifteen. On the other hand, if one looks at the other end of the scale, the professional and managerial classes, 50 per cent get through to university and virtually no one drops out at the age of 15 years. Farmers fall somewhere in between, about 12 per cent get into university and about half drop out at the age of 15 years.

Added to the fact that the State is allocating money through the educational system to the professional and managerial classes, there is also a serious worry about what is happening at the bottom end of the scale to the people who leave early. There is evidence that 26 per cent of all children from unskilled and semi-skilled families who enter secondary school are backward readers. There is no doubt that those children, when they drop out early from school, will be ill-equipped to seize job opportunities and cope with the ordinary problems of living that occur in the family and so on. On the job question there is already striking evidence that this is the case. Of those who leave school without qualifications, 20 per cent are still unemployed one year later and many of those will lose their jobs when it comes to the time when they have to get an adult wage and adult insurance rates have to be paid for them. Those young people may be well on the way to becoming the long term unemployed in the State who, as was pointed out in the newspapers recently, are costing the State about £2,000 per annum in unemployment assistance.

In economic terms, that is vastly more than the niggardly amount that is spent on them when they are at school, not to mention the human waste involved. At the other end of the scale, there is clear evidence that of those who pass the leaving certificate only 5 per cent are unemployed a year later, a very small proportion. The position with graduates must be even more favourable.

It is against this background that we must assess the reform of curricula and examinations in our schools. The objectives I would pick out for the education system are firstly, to develop a child's capacity to cope with his environment and secondly, to compensate for disadvantages of endowment either natural or environmental. The evidence clearly suggests that we are failing to do this. There is no doubt that there is a need for reform, and the Minister's speech was very welcome. When I speak to teachers, they all agree that early schooling bends far too heavily to the needs of the children who go right through the system. That has been said many times in this chamber throughout the debate. I reiterate it.

The objective to carry as many children as possible up to the standard where they get through the hurdles into the next stratum of education is very narrow. Many who fail to get through the hurdles are left ill-equipped. On that issue, the ICE Report contains a submission from the association of post primary remedial teachers which states that there are children attending post primary schools and are forced to attend them for two to three years who are in no way suited to the traditional work of these schools, who are often illiterate and have no sense of number and who, far from developing while at school, regress personally and socially. They also state that what motivation the slow learner might have possessed has often been drained away by repeated failure by the time he reaches post primary school. That puts before us one of the needs for reform in the area of curriculum.

In primary education one of the big "do nots" is to avoid meaningless tests which were there when I was at school. I do not know if it has been changed. The self-respect of children who cannot attain the standards that other children attain is destroyed by failure. Meaningless exercises, like filling baths that are leaking, destroy the natural curiosity of children. Children from the ages of 0-3 are immensely curious. Their capacity to learn in those years is greater than when they enter school. They seem retarded to some extent by the system that they have to enter.

Turning to the problem of what we can do about the high proportion of early school-leavers who are ill-equipped, it would be a serious mistake to put more and more through to the later stages of the system. The only practical answer is to switch resources and make sure that those who do have to leave early at present get a schooling that is adequate, that they have something to go out with. The post primary remedial teachers in the programme they spell out for disadvantaged remedial type pupils, have an emphasis on the three Rs and also on information relating to such things as the family, their rights and duties before the law and simpler things like the use of the phone, the use of medicine, hygiene, newspapers and financial things like how to budget, plan trips and all the ordinary everyday things that everyone who leaves school should have some knowledge of.

The remedial programme will have to go beyond the pupil. Senator Harte pointed out earlier that much of the problem is that parents are not in a position to encourage their children to go to school. I have no doubt that this will be more costly, but it will be dwarfed compared to the five times greater cost of university education.

I am convinced that examinations are used primarily as a method of restricting entry to certain professions and activities. They should be used as a method of improving motivation within the school. I am discontented with the way they are used at present.

As regards the make-up of the board that the Minister is suggesting, I am worried about the emphasis he has placed on teachers, professional educators, the higher education institutions and employers. Children are one important group who should be represented as they are the main consumers. There have been several surveys of what they believe is required from education and they are most illuminating. There was one carried out during the seventies in Northern Ireland which was very valuable. Those whom the educational system is plainly not serving at present, those who are unemployed and people who represent them should be on the board. I should not like to see representation confined to the professional educators who, there is a real danger, would continue to put emphasis on things that are easy to teach or to employers who would place emphasis on things that make it easy for them to identify people they want to get through.

There is agreement to allow the Minister in at about 7.45 p.m.

That has been amended so that the Minister can come in at 8 p.m.

I realised when the Minister put down this motion about the establishment of this board that he had taken up a serious subject and intends to respond to some of the serious debate that has taken place in the House since he made his announcement. The debate so far has centred around the seriousness of the Minister to establish an independent board. I am glad that the Minister used the word "independent" because if I have any reservation at all it would be that any board that is set up to examine an examination system and a curriculum would be dominated by the Department of Education. This independence appears to be necessary from all the advice we have received in this House from educators and teachers.

The Minister said that the existing Curriculum Development Unit in his Department would become the permanent secretariat for this proposed board. This unit should not be allowed to dominate the total work of the board and interfere with its independence. The Minister's proposals appear to release the inspectorate from the examination system and allow them to carry out their functions in a better manner.

The pre-employment programme that has been conducted at Shannon, County Clare, on a private scheme has been very successful in industry. This scheme involved a comprehensive school at Shannon. I have seen students come into the industry where I am employed and examine the various facets of the industry. They have been given a complete run-down of what to expect in industrial life. They have also been shown, with the assistance of professionals in the area, the prospects they have in life if they choose careers in the different directions. This has been the success of the comprehensive school in Shannon.

Part of the school curriculum, especially civics, seems to leave second level students and students from vocational education without the knowledge of one of the most essential things when they go to work and that is to see that they are paid properly. I do not think in the civics course that teachers illustrate the ins and outs of PAYE. People come to us and ask us, as public representatives, to explain to them what is on their pay slip and, how their tax allowance is arrived at and so on. All this basic information is not given in civics at present. Part of the civics should include a full back-up for students who are concerned with living and who have not or do not need the expertise to do accountancy or any of these trades.

I welcome the motion and the opportunity which was given this House to discuss what is an important and urgent matter. In the last ten or more years Irish educational discussions have been devoted almost entirely to the question of structures in education, debate as to who controls what. This has been a very necessary and valuable debate but it has, unfortunately, distracted attention from the central issue which we should be looking at and that is the quality of education which we are providing in our schools for our young people.

My perspective on the quality and kind of education being provided is perhaps a little different from that of most other Members of the House. Unlike most of the people who have spoken before me, I do not look at the subject from the viewpoint of either a teacher or a parent but as a relatively recent consumer of post primary education. From that perspective the quality of education which we are providing for young people is grossly inadequate. That is not a criticism of teachers or of school managements. It is a criticism of the system within which these people try very hard to operate.

The single greatest problem with our educational system is the fact that our curriculum is dominated by the requirements of the examination system which, in turn, is geared towards third level entry. This has resulted in a situation where the courses which are available are extremely narrow and inflexible with the emphasis on retention and rote learning. It is a system which treats pupils as not terribly sophisticated computers into which a certain amount of information must be programmed and on examination day given the correct key words and that information is then to be fed out on to an examination paper. It has also resulted in the choice of subjects available being very limited and dominated by that might be called the art subjects to the detriment of practical and scientific subjects and the almost complete exclusion of non-academic areas of education, such areas as physical education, the development of creative skills and cultural and personal developments.

Our education system should be preparing people for jobs which are available rather than those which are not; developing enterprise and entrepreneurial skills in young people rather than training a nation of academics; teaching young people to use and cope with new technology and most important of all, our education system should be training young people for life. It should be helping them to develop their whole personality and encouraging each individual student's talents and skills.

In trying to achieve this we must look at the content of the curriculum as it is at present. We need to draw entirely new syllabi for the existing courses which we have, which are much broader in scope and relevant to the needs of 1981 rather than the needs of 1921. We should allow scope for experimentation and diversification and devise courses which can be related and adapted to the experience and environment of students. A major new course, which might be called something on the lines of social affairs, should be taken right throughout the post primary cycle. Such a course would include such issues as political affairs, the whole structure of Government, how Government operates, how political parties operate, the whole theory of democracy and the question of the Constitution.

In addition, that course should give a basic grounding in each individual citizen's legal rights and duties — giving people an idea of consumer legislation and their rights as employees or perhaps as potential employers. That course could also include areas of sex education and health education — two areas which are totally neglected in our present curriculum. Also included in the ambit of that course should be a basic training in inter-personal relationships and marriage preparation. There is a great need for a course of training in such areas as drama, public speaking, dance, mime, poetry and music appreciation and a course in media appreciation. The whole area of physical education needs to be looked at. There is far too much emphasis on competitive sport where literally only the fittest survive.

I should like to make a few brief comments on possible changes within the examination structure. In my view the intermediate certificate examination should be abolished. It serves no useful purpose whatever. The group certificate should be retained in a modified form for those who will not complete the full five year cycle. Abolishing the intermediate certificate would allow much greater scope during the first three years of post-primary education. It would allow the possibility of introducing a radically different curriculum, a greater choice of subjects and greater freedom for teachers to experiment. I am in favour of retaining the leaving certificate but in a modified and new form. I am not convinced by the arguments in favour of continuous assessment for a number of reasons, the chief of which is that it is not possible to devise a system which would be fair, free from bias and favouritism and have some sort of a national standard.

I fear that the introduction of a system of continuous assessment would lead in some way to a situation where schools would obtain a kind of ranking order and that the assessments produced by some schools would be regarded in some way as superior to those produced by others. For these reasons I favour the retention of the formal final examination. Such an examination should, as Senator Higgins mentioned earlier, be an open book, one where a student would be entitled to bring with him all the materials he wishes. It would be a test af a student's ability to argue and analyse, to marshal and present facts in a clear fashion, to identify problems and to use the knowledge and facts that he has to find solutions. I would envisage such an examination taking place over a much longer period than at present. I would see the possibility of doing it in sections, perhaps one section at the end of the fourth year, the second section at Christmas in the fifth year and finishing up at the end of the fifth year, thus relieving the termendous pressure which is a product of the present system where all of the student's work is assessed over a very short period of about ten days at the end of five years or ten years study, if one includes primary education.

In addition to the formal written examination we must work towards having facilities for oral examinations in all modern languages and a system of credits for practical and project work, for scientific and technological subjects. Such a final examination would not be used as a basis for selection of students for third level. This would be done by a national matriculation examination to be taken a year later, a year after the final examination, by those wishing to pursue a third level course. The national matriculation examination would be on a limited number of subjects relevant to the courses which a student wishes to pursue at third level: thus somebody wishing to go on to study medicine, science or engineering would do an examination in scientific subjects. Someone wishing to pursue a course in arts, a language course, would do an examination in language and so on. This would mean that it would only be at that stage that a student would be called on to specialise in his choice of subjects, and it would also mean that students entering third level would have studied subjects relevant to the courses which they wish to pursue. For those not wishing to enter third level, I suggest having an optional sixth or pre-employment year with emphasis on job preparation and work experience programmes.

In the Minister's speech he referred to the possible composition of the board and listed a number of people who would be on it. I know the list was not supposed to be exhaustive, but I was somewhat perturbed to notice that there was no mention of the possibility of having the representatives of students on that board. The Minister should give some consideration as to how the views of people who are the consumers of post-primary education might be given to that board.

I have a natural horror of commissions, committees, tribunals, boards and task forces. In many instances, they are up as a means of postponing decisions and once they have been set up they are used as an excuse for further postponing decisions. I should like to see this board set up immediately. I should like to see it being given sufficient powers and teeth to be effective and I should like to see a commitment that any proposals that would emanate from that board would be implemented if legislative change is necessary and that the necessary resources to give effect to the decisions and recommendations of the board would be provided.

I compliment all Senators who contributed to this debate. I found their contributions both helpful and interesting and a very careful note has been taken of the many ideas put forward.

There were a wide number of issues touched upon in the course of the debate. Senator O'Rourke referred to my opening speech as being very general in nature. She is quite correct in saying that, because it was deliberately framed in that way. I make no apology for doing so. It is important that I should have an open mind on the matter. I rather suspect that if I came to the Seanad and made an announcement in a definitive way regarding the composition of an independent curriculum and examinations board, its membership and what specifically its role and function should be, the reaction, quite correctly, from most Members would have been that the purpose for the debate would have been set aside by the opening speech. I felt it was important that we might initiate debate upon the concept of having an independent curriculum and examinations board in this House. Members of the House have responded very well to the suggestion that the springboard for the launching of a public debate on this matter should take place here. Consequently, it would have been very inappropriate had I, in too detailed a way, laid down the requirements for the independent board.

There are very many complex issues in this whole matter to which I do not suggest there are instant solutions. I do not particularly want to suggest solutions at this stage. Rather, as Senator Andy O'Brien pointed out, I want to direct the discussion and the attention of the Seanad to the major issues and to hear from Members the ideas they have as to where we should go from here. I am very pleased indeed by the manner in which the House has responded to this challenge. I am encouraged too by the general welcome which the motion has received and by the overall favourable response to the proposal that an independent curriculum and examinations board should be established.

Senator Hussey in her contribution queried the suggested title. At this stage the precise title is unimportant. The Senator suggested that the board might be called the National Curriculum and Evaluation Board. The board will be concerned primarily with assessment of students rather than with evaluation. Evaluation is a term which is used more in relation to the overall curriculum than to the students' performance within that curriculum. Perhaps in that context the title might be the National Board for Curriculum and Assessment. In her contribution Senator Robinson seemed to be thinking along those lines. However, at this point the precise title is unimportant.

Senator Cranitch gave us some insight into the range of purposes which education must serve. I appreciate his generous support for the merits of having this debate and share his concern about the stress which examinations impose on young people to which I referred in my opening remarks. I cannot agree with him in his praise of the previous Government's publication entitled White Paper on Educational Development. That publication effectively ignored the examination question and proposed no reforms whatsoever, and said very little of a serious nature with regard to the curriculum. I hope the debate which has been initiated in this House and which will be carried on among educationists and others throughout the country will continue at a higher level than a debate on these matters which I can recall which was generated following the publication of these documents in December last year.

Senator Hussey suggested, and other Members of the House reflected upon the suggestion, that examinations might be abolished altogether. That perhaps is too drastic a move. Examinations properly designed and constructed can have a positive educational role. I gave praise to the existing public examinations and the contribution that they have made. I said that it would be quite improper for us to cast them aside lightly until we were firmly convinced in our minds that their replacement was to the educational advantage and was the correct thing. The art of good examining is part of the art of being a good teacher.

I note with interest Senator Hussey's suggestion for the building up of a profile of each child's performance over the years spent at school. Obviously considerable administrative difficulties may be associated with such a scheme but it would help to overcome the problems of the one-day-only nature or the concept of the terminal examination being pressed into a ten or 20-day period which were the drawbacks referred to by both Senator Cranitch and Senator Hussey.

Senator Hussey also spoke about ensuring equal opportunity for girls within the curriculum, and I share her concern. Some time ago I spoke on this subject at the opening of a joint Department of Education and Employment Equality Agency course on aspects of equality of opportunity which was held in St. Patrick's Training College, Drumcondra. At that time I said:

... it is essential that, in order to achieve equality between the sexes, emphasis needs to be placed on the type of education young people receive. It is important too that the education they receive should be broad enough to prepare them for a wide range of occupations.

There is a need, therefore, to implement schemes that will focus on encouraging girls to become interested in and obtain work experience in nontraditional areas ...

It is necessary that second level education be developed to meet modern day needs which have been created by economic and social progress, by the development of scientific and technological education, by encouraging co-education and by ensuring, as I said earlier, that girls have an equal opportunity of studying all subjects in the curriculum.

I note Senator Hussey's advice about the composition of the board and in particular her suggestion that it should be small by nature and that the permanent secretariat might be made up of the Department of Education's curriculum unit. While the curriculum unit must play an important part in the operation of the board, the new system must also allow for greater direct involvement by practising teachers. However I agree that the criterion for membership of the board must be professional competence. It will be of concern to me to think that in any way I had, as somebody here suggested, projected a negative or defeatist attitude towards continuous assessment. I concur with Senator Hillery that there is much potential in the use of such procedures. However, it is necessary to draw attention to the inherent difficulties which have to be overcome. I reassure Senator Robinson about my sincere interest in the use of different modes of assessment. It is correct and was useful in the context of the debate that Senator Kearney referred to the different standards of continuous assessment which could easily develop and come to be known within educational and employer circles. That is one of the inherent difficulties in the introduction of any system of continuous assessment and has to be reflected upon. There are other difficulties also, but that is not to say that those difficulties might outweigh the merits of the introduction of such a system, difficult as the transition might be.

Several speakers referred to the need for political education and some saw this as a subject in its own right. Senator O'Rourke felt that it might best be handled by changes in the syllabus in history whilst the same Senator, Senator O'Connell and Senator Kennedy felt that reform of the civics subject is needed and it should be made an examination subject. Senator Hillery echoed my comments about introducing civics into the senior cycle of schools. He also favoured industrial relations as part of the course, and that is a valuable suggestion. I cannot help but be struck by the number of speakers who referred to the inadequacy of the teaching of civics within our curriculum, how restrictive it was, how it was pushed to one side in favour of examination subjects and how in the view of many people if it is taught at one level only, it is being taught at the wrong level — junior level — whereas it might be applied far more beneficially at senior level. This is one of the very important areas which has been identified as a result of the debate in this House and one deserving of serious and urgent consideration. Whether a new subject should be introduced or whether an existing subject area ought to be reformed is a matter that will have to be given careful consideration.

I listened with care to what Senator O'Rourke had to say about the national matriculation examination. It would not be my intention to add to the stresses which examinations impose. Senator Hillery also expressed fears as to the extra pressures which this suggested new examination might produce and I will bear those in mind. Senator O'Rourke and Senator Byrne referred to the transfer from primary to post primary school. In any curriculum review due account should be taken of the recommendations of the special committee which reported on this problem. While agreeing with Senator O'Rourke about the need for more remedial teaching in second level schools, I would also say that it is even more important to identify problems earlier so that remedial action can be taken as early as possible.

The remarks about educational broadcasting could be misleading. Although RTE decided recently to suspend school broadcasts, no financial support from the Department of Education has been given to educational broadcasting for several years, and so their decision to suspend those broadcasts at this time was not because of any decision taken recently within my Department. A committee within the Department of Education are currently considering the future of educational broadcasting. I will comment further on this subject when the committee have reported.

RTE are co-operating with NIHE, Dublin and with my Department in launching the first distance learning courses in this country early in the new year. The launching of the distance learning project will be of considerable significance for this country especially in the context of the great numbers within our population who live in remote or rural areas and who have been denied access to education at all levels over the years. The developments in technology and the decision to launch the distance learning project will have very far-reaching and important beneficial consequences for this nation. The importance of the concept has not yet been recognised either by the general public or within educational circles. I suggest that the Members of the House might reflect upon the long-term consequences of this important innovation.

In response to the suggestion that oral tests should be introduced in modern languages, I am pleased to tell the House that an oral French test is being introduced into the leaving certificate examination in 1984. That is not before time, and I believe that we have still a very long way to go in this area.

Senator McAuliffe suggested that more attention should be paid to what is happening in the primary schools. His remarks underline what I said in my initial speech concerning the importance of looking at the continuity of courses from primary level through to the post primary school. The same Senator raised the differences in methods of training and qualifications needed for teachers at different levels. This is of particular concern to me and I intend to look at it closely in the near future.

I am pleased that Senator Whitaker noted my contention that there is a dual role for the leaving certificate which has suffered because of it. I note with interest too his support in principle for the idea of national matriculation. However, wisely, as he so often does, and with obvious experience, he drew attention to the question of the cost of any new systems which might be introduced. It is very important in the context of any debate for the provision of public services that cost factors be kept in mind. The numerous demands for adequate provision of the range of services for which any Minister is directly responsible impose a considerable financial strain on the available resources. Consequently, it is vital to assess the relative merits to be accorded to the different areas and the legitimate claims of conflicting interests. It is essential that the best value be got for every penny spent. Senator Hillery has stated correctly that curriculum development is expensive, but this does not mean that it is not necessary or that it may not in real terms provide better value than some other suggestion or some other possible innovation.

Returning to Senator Whitaker's contribution, I take his point about the need for further discussions with higher education colleges before any change in examinations would be introduced. Senator Whitaker stressed his personal liking for the British O and A levels system of examination. It is my opinion that one of the great virtues of the Irish system as against the British one is that it avoids too early specialisation and does not force young people to make decisions about their future too young. This problem was also mentioned by Senator Hussey. Senator Whitaker was concerned in case we were over-stressing the pressure of examinations. We cannot ignore the fact that such pressures exist. We must avoid at all costs the situation in some other countries whereby young people are driven to the point of suicide because of educational pressures.

Senator Byrne, Senator O'Connell and Senator O'Brien have also expressed their anxiety about the pressures of the competitive examination system, and I want to put on record my personal belief that the existing pressures generated by public examinations at all levels are unacceptable to the student, his parents and his family in general. We must as a matter of urgency examine methods whereby those pressures can be relieved.

I have made several references to Senator Hillery's contribution which offered many constructive and useful ideas. He identified well the positive aspects of examinations as well as referring to the potential of continuous assessment.

I note Senator Byrne's contention that our educational system does not prepare modern youth for the practical demands of living. I am glad that he shares my anxiety that not enough is being done to give training in practical and technical subjects in schools. The suggestion that family life should feature on the curriculum is welcome.

Senator O'Connell gave a comprehensive survey of many aspects of the curriculum and examinations. He referred correctly to the examinations as a device for controlling the curriculum and he mentioned the problem of down-grading of any school activity which is not examinable. This point was stressed aptly by Senator Kennedy. I welcome Senator O'Connell's comments about the need to ensure that inspectors are able to play a full educational role. This was referred to also by Senator Carey. The part played by inspectors was referred to also by Senator Hussey. Senator O'Connell's other suggestion about membership of the new board will be considered carefully.

I have noted what was said about the acceptability of the Irish leaving certificate in Britain and elsewhere. Contrary to what Senator O'Connell stated, I understand that London University recognise the leaving certificate on a basis similar to that on which they recognise the Scottish leaving certificate. Senator O'Connell made reference to a speech by my predecessor in which an undertaking was given that computers would be found in schools before the end of the century. Deputy Wilson, when Minister, promised as recently as May or June last that every secondary school in the country would have a computer by last September. How that was to be undertaken remains a mystery, considering the allocation for the provision of micro-computer facilities in secondary schools of £50,000 in this year's Estimate. However, since coming into office the Government have agreed to an increase in this allocation and in the allocations under the other subheads. It is my intention within the next few days to purchase micro-computers for a sum in excess of £200,000. This will lead to a very good start in——

What in terms of leasing would £50,000 provide in micro-computers and what in terms of purchase would £200,000 get in terms of providing computers?

It is unusual to interrupt the Minister. The Senator will have an opportunity to make a case. On some occasions like this when a Minister has concluded short questions have been put to him. If the Minister would like to deal with the question put by Senator Lanigan the Chair has no objection, but I would prefer that the Minister would be allowed to continue without interruption.

I bow to the Chair.

If either the Senator or myself had a micro-computer we could feed in the questions and get the answers more readily. The purchase of these micro-computers to this extent will allow a good start, but only that, to be made in the provision this year. It is our intention to continue adding to this start in a substantial way next year and in subsequent years.

Senator O'Connell referred in some detail to what he termed the third technological revolution and the information society. It is vitally important that this country recognises that society is changing far more speedily than ever before in the evolution of the world. For the first time ever since early Christianity this country has an opportunity to keep abreast of educational and technological change. We have a unique opportunity in that there are already situated within this country some 80 firms manufacturing computer hardware and software, and within the next 20 years the development of the information society will result in a society such as very few of us can comprehend today. We have the opportunity to become involved virtually at the outset of that change. A very great onus is upon us to use that technology within our schools to ensure that our young people are geared properly to respond to its challenge, not on the basis of endeavouring to assess how many jobs it may cost but on the basis of establishing how the utilisation of that new technology can help to shape a new and better society for all of us.

From that point of view the provision of this technology within our educational system and the training of our teachers to use that technology for the betterment of our society are of vital importance. When I went into the Department I said I should be putting basic hardware into the upper ends of primary schools instead of setting off now to put it into the upper ends of post-primary schools. It has been my hope that within a few years the Government of the day would be facing up to the task of equipping the top ends of primary schools with this technology whether it is bought or leased. Let us not have any trite questions about that. The most important thing is that this is provided, that these courses are provided, that we recognise the challenge. Thus for the first time for many years we have an opportunity of being in the forefront of technological revolution and change.

Senator O'Connell's analysis of the need for a review of the curricula and teaching methods and their adaptation to meet the needs of this new technology which I have just referred to was valuable. He drew attention, rightly, to the great need to face the new challenge which I have just referred to as a matter of urgency. The new board which we propose to set up would have an important role to play in this regard. That point was echoed by Senator Robinson. I agree with Senator Fallon about the need to look closely at the curriculum at the early years of the post primary schools in relation to the changes which have taken place at primary level. I agree also that an adequate number of remedial teachers is essential. However, in fairness it should be pointed out that the Senator seems to have under-estimated considerably the number of trained remedial teachers who are currently operating ex-quota within the school. The number quoted, namely 45, refers to the numbers catered for by a special course each year. Some 200 places have been created ex-quota for remedial teachers within the system, and considerable numbers of trained remedial teachers are operating within the quota as teachers.

Senator Robinson made a wide-ranging contribution which was welcome and constructive. She advocated regional devolution and decentralisation of curricula and examinations. While I would not wish to be specific about this at present, I indicated in my opening speech that I saw a need for local flexibility in the curriculum and in the modes of assessment.

This matter was referred to by Senator O'Rourke who perhaps, to some extent, felt that I was suggesting that there was a necessity for a better course in Dublin or in an urban area than in a rural area. That was not my intention, but I felt that because of local needs and local perceived demands within particular localities the curriculum should be flexible. For instance, if there was recognition that specialised industry would continuously demand a high input of employees, those employees in, say, the Athlone region, should receive training in a flexible curriculum within their schools and they would have a good basis for gaining access to opportunities in that local employment. This in itself implies decentralising of the control systems. Whilst I accept Senator Robinson's point in principle, I would not wish to give any quick answer as to how that could best be organised. I agree broadly with the Senator's view that the new board should be representative of the many interests in their composition and that they should work closely with other agencies such as those engaged in adult education. I note the Senator's comments about the curriculum unit in my Department and also the strong support for the Trinity College and Dublin VEC curriculum development units and her remarks and those of other Senators regarding the Shannon project. I would like to echo her praise for the work that has been done.

Senator Robinson's comments on certification for all are rather interesting. In my earlier remarks I spoke of the need to ensure that the assessment systems which we use are appropriate for all ability levels. This fact must be borne in mind when, as the Senator points out, children will in the future thankfully be older when they are transferred to post primary school. She also asks that the report of the pupil transfer committee which was set up by my predecessor should be made more widely known and available. I am pleased to announce to the House that the Government have agreed to my suggestion that the pupil transfer committee report will be published in the very near future.

Senator Kennedy was another supporter of the role of assessment in addition to the once-off terminal examination. I was impressed by the number of speakers who made this point. However, if you have a terminal examination at the end of the senior cycle of post primary school you must also provide some form of certification for those who opt to leave that schooling at an earlier date. It is the easiest thing in the world to suggest that the intermediate certificate ought to be set aside, but if we recognise that not everybody wants to continue, needs to continue or perhaps should continue through to the end of post primary education, then we must also realise that it is quite unfair and inappropriate that anybody after a considerable number of years in formal schooling should be invited to go out into the world around him without any certification of the years spent in school. I note Senator Kennedy's suggestion that the British schools council could provide a model to be emulated here. It is important to draw on relevant experience from other countries. For instance, recent experience in introducing curriculum change in Australia is likely to prove interestingly relevant to our needs.

I share Senator Kennedy's welcome for the reference's to education in the North-South joint studies published in the recent past and I look forward to following up the suggestions made in those studies in the very near future.

Senator O'Brien and other speakers discussed failures in the teaching of Irish. I agree as to the importance of emphasising the spoken language, not instead of, but as being of greater importance than and in conjunction with, the written language. In general terms Senator O'Brien identified aptly the need to make the curriculum more relevant to students' needs. I agree that the weaknesses identified in the ICE Report need urgently to be corrected. I appreciate, too the Senator's comments on the need to foster the development of practical patriotism.

Senator Ferris discussed the problem of the points system for university entrance and the pressures which this imposes. This is one of the major problems which the government hope to solve by the introduction of the new board. I note the Senator's welcome for the idea of a national matriculation examination and his wish that the "consumer interests" play a greater part in operating their own selection mechanisms.

Senator Burke dealt with what he called practical details arising from the subject of the debate and his comments ranged from pre-fabricated classrooms to a variety of other issues, to the removal of VAT from textbooks, and to sex education. I will give consideration to all of those suggestions in due course. I note particularly his worries about those who leave schools as failures and drop-outs, a point that was referred to also by Senator Higgins. One of my worries about the examination system at present is the over-emphasis often placed on failure. It ought to be possible to devise a curriculum and a system of examination and assessment which would give a more satisfactory experience to people in their education.

I thank Senator Harte for his suggestions particularly with regard to the matter of trade union education and the social and industrial education which might be included in the curriculum. Whilst there is an obvious difficulty in having time to include all of the worthwhile activities which have been mentioned during this debate, I detect a widespread concern that the curriculum needs to be more directly geared to day-to-day life interests. I note with interest the Senator's concern that the curriculum will be sufficiently flexible to ensure that all social groups will be treated equally.

Senator Bruton mentioned the problem of early drop-outs from school who are ill-prepared for employment. It is important to approach the problems which may be created for the future employment prospects of those for whom the curriculum is irrelevant in its present form. It is also salutory to be reminded of the range of problems which the weakest pupils have to face in life unless we can ensure that all children can be equipped with fundamental skills.

As I said at the outset, and as I said in other places, our educational system should be charged with and should be capable of doing two things at present. One is training young people to develop their full potential and be able to live in what was referred to as that big, harsh, tough world outside. We must decide whether our curriculum and our system are suitable to deliver that. Allied to that, our young people must be trained in such a way as to be able to obtain employment in this rapidly changing technological era, as we move into what was referred to as the third revolution, the information society. Not only that, but they must be able to retain that employment. We must ensure that there is sufficient training and continuing education to allow them the mobility to move from one job opportunity to another, an ability that has been identified as becoming of increasing relevance in our society.

Life is not static. Society is changing at a faster pace than ever before in history. For the first time since the early centuries we have the opportunity to be abreast of or ahead of others.

I am loth to interrupt the Minister but what is the intention of the House? Is it to continue on? It is now the normal time to adjourn. Is it agreed to allow the Minister to conclude?

Senators

Agreed.

We must ensure that our young adults will be trained for the development of their own individual potential. Instead of being frightened by the changes in society we should be proud and anxious to take up the challenge which these changes present. We should not be cautious in initiating change if we know the change is necessary and that from change will come the development and the enhancement of our society and of our young people. We should not be afraid to undertake change because there may be criticism from certain quarters or vested interests. We must be aware that change is increasingly necessary in this world and if this country is to survive within this world. If change is necessary within our educational system let us identify and tackle it whether it be the subject of criticism or otherwise and let us see that our society for once in the introduction of that change and the recognition of the information society can be abreast of or even ahead of the rest of the world. In that context and in the context of those remarks this debate has been very worthwhile. There has been in this House a series of serious contributions on educational issues from virtually all of the speakers. The issues which have been raised are extremely important and I think very many worth while ideas have been put forward by all sides in the course of this debate. If the future debates outside, which I hope will be generated through the discussion here are of the same high standard as this one has been, I can be confident that when the independent curriculum and examinations board is established it would be established on the basis of a firm bedrock and will take on the challenge which I have invited the House to consider and which I believe is vital for the progress of our society. I thank the Senators for their contributions.

Question put and agreed to.
The Seanad adjourned at 8.35 p.m. until 10.30 a.m. on Thursday, 26 November 1981.
Top
Share