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Seanad Éireann debate -
Thursday, 10 Dec 1981

Vol. 96 No. 14

Fire Services Bill, 1981: Second Stage.

Question proposed: "That the Bill be now read a Second Time."

Before I deal with the provision of this Bill, I would like to say a few words about its history and background. The Bill was presented to the Dáil by the previous Government in April of this year. It passed its Second Reading in the Dáil on 5 May last and at that time was given a general welcome by speakers from all the main parties. It lapsed when the Dáil was dissolved prior to the General Election. When the Government came into office the opportunity was taken to give very careful consideration to suggestions made in the meantime by various interests, including fire service staff interests, professional bodies and so on. When the Bill was restored to the Dáil Order Paper at the commencement of this session a number of amendments were put down to meet such suggestions and generally improve the Bill. The most important of these was the introduction of a new section 16 providing for the establishment of a Fire Service Council which would be empowered to provide services for and on behalf of the Minister and fire authorities.

Two main factors have influenced the evolution of the present Bill. One was the need to improve the organisation and powers of the country's fire service to meet present-day and future requirements. The other factor was the need to strengthen and update the legislative provisions relating to fire safety.

The provisions of this Bill need to be set in their proper perspective and to do so it would be useful to have a brief review of the development of legislation governing the fire service up to now. In the nineteenth century fire legislation was largely confined to the Town Commissioners Acts and this had two important implications. Fire fighting powers were the preserve of urban authorities and were adoptive rather than mandatory. Even though Part VIII of the Public Health Acts Amendment Act, 1907 gave both urban and rural authorities an implied power to maintain fire brigades, this power was still adoptive.

The primary object, therefore, of the Fire Brigades Act, 1940, was to introduce a statutory requirement to provide fire cover right across the country. This it did by imposing an obligation on all sanitary authorities to make reasonable provision for the prompt and efficient extinguishing of fires in their areas and for the protection and rescue of persons and property from injury by fire. Sanitary authorities were free to discharge this obligation either by themselves maintaining a fire brigade or by arranging with another authority to provide this service in their area. The 1940 Act also laid down the basis of a fire prevention system by introducing the concept of a potentially dangerous building and providing for the service of a fire precautions notice in respect of such a building.

Although the Fire Brigades Act, 1940 was a comparatively brief measure, it enabled local authorities to establish an effective fire fighting system and to operate considerable controls for the prevention of fire hazards. Accordingly, although the present Bill proposes to repeal the old Act, its main provisions are being re-enacted.

Much has happended in the past 40 years to warrant a radical review of fire service legislation. Industrialisation has progressed on a scale never contemplated in 1940. We have also witnessed vast technological change and we have in recent years seen the trend towards increased urbanisation and the growth in residential, service and amenity development consequent on our expanding population and increased economic activity. Another factor is that changes have taken place in the methods, scale and style of construction, including introduction of new building materials.

All of these factors placed new and increasing demands on the operational fire service, in terms of fire cover, equipment and training and also increased the need for adequate standards of fire safety in buildings, especially where a risk to life might be involved.

The need for a thorough assessment of the capacity of our fire service in the light of its increased responsibilities was recognised when the Minister for Local Government appointed a working party in November 1972 to advise him on the questions of fire resources, fire prevention measures, legislation, financial implications and on staffing and training arrangements.

The main report of the working party was published without Government commitment in July 1975, and it contained 39 recommendations grouped into five broad categories: the operational service, fire prevention, staffing structure and qualifications, training and miscellaneous and transitional matters. There were also five minority reports. Action has been taken on virtually all of the recommendations of the majority report. Most of them have been or are being implemented.

The report made a number of recommendations relating to legislation. It suggested a review of the fire fighting provisions of the 1940 Act, the placing of an onus on persons in control of premises to which the public have access to guard against the risk to life from fire, the need to have a comprehensive system of inspection and control of buildings and so on.

An important recommendation in the report was the one which suggested that each local authority should prepare an assessment of the strength and adequacy of the local fire service. During 1976 my Department asked local authorities to undertake these reviews and their reports which were received in the following years, together with the report on the fire service, provide the background to most of the provisions included in this Bill.

The reviews of course dealt primarily with purely local problems, for example, the adequacy of local arrangements, equipment, staffing and so on. While the reviews are not always as comprehensive as might be required ideally, they have served their purpose in pointing the way in which the local services must be improved and developed. My Department are following up with individual authorities points arising in the reviews. Generally the role of the Department is to advise, assist and encourage the local authorities as far as possible within the resources available to secure the necessary improvements.

This co-operative approach, which respects the essential features of our local government system, was envisaged by the 1975 report and has been accepted by successive Ministers, rightly in my opinion. I mention this because an alternative suggestion sometimes heard is that the Department's approach should be to carry out sworn public inquiries into the manner in which many of the individual fire authorities perform their functions, to be followed by disciplinary and other actions as directed by the Minister. I could not accept such an alternative approach. I think the proper approach is the co-operative one indicated throughout the 1975 report and put into practice by my predecessors.

I want to turn now to the detailed provisions of the Bill. The Bill itself is divided into four Parts containing groups of sections dealing with preliminary and general matters, the organisation of the fire service, fire fighting and fire safety requirements and, finally, consequential financial and administrative arrangements. Part I is concerned with preliminary and general matters and contains a number of standard sections dealing with commencement of the Act, definitions, the procedure for making regulations and certain orders, offences and penalties, expenses of the Minister and repeals.

The main substantive provisions of Part I are the repeal by section 8 of the Fire Brigades Act, 1940, and the now obsolete Cinematograph Act, 1909, the provision for offences and greatly increased penalties for offences which are specified in section 5.

Summary and indictable offences are treated separately. A person convicted of a summary offence will be liable to a maximum penalty of a £500 fine and/or six months imprisonment. Indictable offences, which may arise from failure to comply with the duty placed on persons having control of certain premises by section 18 (2) or failure to comply with the provisions of a fire safety notice under section 20 or fire safety regulations under section 37, will be even more severely punishable by fines of up to £10,000 and/or imprisonment for up to two years.

These penalties represent an updating of the penalties contained in the Fire Brigades Act, 1940, and also reflect a determination to ensure that people are not exposed to fire hazards as a result of the carelessness or lack of responsibility of the owners, occupiers or other persons in charge of premises. This determination can also be seen in the provision for trial by jury where serious offences are concerned.

Part II of the Bill is concerned with the organisation of the fire service. The main feature of this Part of the Bill is the proposed concentration of all fire functions, both fire fighting and fire safety, in 35 local authorities to be known as fire authorities. The 35 fire authorities provided for in section 9 are the 27 county councils, the four county borough corporations, the borough corporations of Dún Laoghaire and Drogheda and the urban district councils of Dundalk and Athlone.

I would like to explain the reasons for this proposed change. First, let me outline the existing position under the Fire Brigades Act, 1940. Responsibility for both fire fighting and fire safety was, formally at least, assigned individually to each of the 87 sanitary authorities. In practice, however, all the boroughs and urban districts with the exception of those mentioned above, Dún Laoghaire, Drogheda, Dundalk and Athlone made arrangements with their respective county councils for the provision of a fire brigade service. Therefore, the proposal to assign fire fighting functions to the 35 listed authorities only recognises the de facto position which has obtained for sometime.

The situation in respect of fire prevention functions is somewhat different. Under the Fire Brigades Act, 1940, and a number of other enactments these functions have generally been vested in all 87 sanitary authorities. While statutory agreements have been made by a number of urban authorities to have these fire safety functions carried out by their county councils, formal arrangements of this kind have not been the general rule. At the same time, most urban authorities have relied on county councils, partly at least, to provide them informally with the expertise necessary to discharge their fire prevention functions.

In view of the existing position and because I believe that some rationalisation will strengthen the organisation and efficiency of the fire service, section 9 provides that there shall be 35 authorities: section 10 spells out their functions, section 11 provides for the transfer to fire authorities of the main fire safety functions vested in local authorities and sanitary authorities under other enactments, and section 17 provides, where needed, for the transfer of any staff or property dedicated exclusively to fire prevention work from borough or urban districts to the relevant fire authority.

I am sure that the House recognises the importance of the relationship between fire safety and planning control and especially the need to ensure a full fire safety input into the planning decisions of urban planning authorities which are not fire authorities. While I know that it is normal practice to seek fire safety on planning matters, I feel that there should be no doubt on this point and accordingly section 13 will allow a fire authority to advise a planning authority on the exercise of its planning control functions.

The fire fighting functions of fire authorities, which are set out in section 10 are largely a re-enactment of the corresponding provisions of the Fire Brigades Act, 1940. A general duty is placed on fire authorities to make provision for the prompt and efficient extinguishing of fires in buildings and other places, to establish and maintain a fire brigade and make adequate provision for reception of and response to calls. Fire authorities are expressly enabled by section 10 to make arrangements with each other for the joint discharge of their functions and to enter agreements with any other person or body either to provide or to avail of services.

Section 14 requires fire authorities, as far as reasonably possible, to give assistance to one another. The present Bill, however, does not itself authorise the making of agreements between fire authorities for the performance of the functions of one authority by another, and, indeed, it actually drops a provision to this effect which was contained in section 2 (3) of the Fire Brigades Act, 1940. This is because local authorities now have adequate general powers to make agreements for the performance of functions of one authority by another under section 59 of the Local Government Act, 1955. However, subsection (6) of section 10 of this Bill gives the Minister a reserve power to direct fire authorities to make agreements under the 1955 Act where this appears to him to be necessary. Where agreements were made under the 1940 Act by local authorities who now become fire authorities, these agreements will be deemed to have been made under the 1955 Act.

It is as well at this stage to deal briefly with the additional powers related to the fire fighting functions of fire authorities which are spelt out, especially in sections 25 to 31. Section 25 allows a fire authority to carry out or assist at operations of an emergency nature whether or not a risk of fire is involved. This provision gives statutory recognition to the role of fire authorities in assisting at non-fire emergencies. Section 26 requires fire authorities to prepare fire and emergency operations plans.

Sections 27 and 28 develop the provisions of the Fire Brigades Act, 1940, regarding control of operations at a fire, section 27 designating and defining the person in control at an incident and section 28 giving this person wide ancillary powers. Subsection (9) of section 10 also deserves mention here: it gives a fire authority power to send a fire brigade outside their own area or outside the area of any fire authority, for example on to a marine structure, and ensures that they will have all the ancillary powers in section 28 when this is done.

Section 29 makes it clear that the functions of sanitary authority to provide a water supply also include the provision of a water supply for fire fighting and the provision and maintenance of fire hydrants at such places as required by the fire authority. The section also places a duty on a sanitary authority to consult with a fire authority and take agreed measures where the latter consider that reasonable provision has not been made for water supplies for fire fighting purposes. Section 31 makes it an offence to interfere with, damage or obstruct a fire hydrant. Subsection 10 of section 10 places a duty on fire authorities occasionally to conduct a survey to examine the location and adequacy of the water supplies for fire fighting as well as fire hydrants and fire fighting equipment. Section 30 makes it an offence to give a false fire alarm or to cause one to be given.

Returning to Part II of the Bill, section 15 is concerned with training and places the primary duty of training their personnel on the fire authority. However, it also empowers the Minister to assist them in performing this function, whether by providing central training courses and facilities, conducting examinations or granting financial assistance. Indeed my Department are already providing assistance on these lines and this provision gives suitable statutory recognition to this work.

Section 16 of the Bill, to which I referred earlier, provides for the establishment of the Fire Services Council with the role of providing services for and on behalf of the Minister and fire authorities. While the full range of services to be provided by the council would be set out in an establishment order to be made under the section, the section itself spells out a number of specific services which the council would be empowered to provide at the request of the Minister. The first of these relates to assistance with fire service training. While my Department have given considerable assistance already in this area through organising central training courses, the programme needs to be expanded and developed as a matter of urgency to give the maximum assistance to local fire authorities in improving the efficiency of the fire service.

The production of guidelines and standards in respect of many aspects of the fire service is also necessary in order to promote efficiency and standardisation. Again my Department, with the help of ad hoc groups representative of fire service and other interests, are doing a certain amount of work in this area. Much, however, remains to be done and I consider that existing arrangements need to be developed on a more formal basis. The council is, therefore, being empowered to assist with the preparation of guidelines, codes of practice and draft fire safety regulations. These documents would still of course require my consideration and approval but their production could be much more expeditious if the research, drafting and consultation were entrusted to the council.

The council would also be empowered to organise research and to carry out investigations into fires or into operations of an emergency nature under section 25. In addition to the existing powers for establishment in appropriate cases of a tribunal of inquiry to inquire into a fire or other such incident, I consider that there should also be a less formal procedure available for use in appropriate circumstances which could quickly produce an account of the fire or incident and the lessons to be learned for the future. As a result of points made during the debate on this section in the Dáil, it was amended to provide that the council could carry out an investigation wholly or partly in public and suitable powers were included in relation to such matters as entering and inspecting lands or buildings, taking samples and requiring evidence to be taken on oath. I expect that these powers of investigation would be used by the council as informally as possible.

Part III of the Bill contains fire fighting and fire safety provisions and I have already outlined those related to fire fighting. The fire safety provisions of the Bill embody an important new principle in that they place a clear responsibility on persons having control over certain premises to take all reasonable measures to guard against the outbreak of fire and to ensure the safety of persons on the premises.

Section 18 introduces this obligation and specifies the type of premises concerned. Broadly, all premises to which the public have access fall within the scope of the section, which also requires all persons on such premises to conduct themselves in such a way as not to expose any other person to danger from fire. I regard this as a very important provision of the Bill and it will, I hope, result in greater emphasis by property owners themselves on preventive action.

The Bill also strengthens the powers of fire authorities to take action on potentially dangerous buildings. Strong powers already exist in the Fire Brigades Act, 1940, to deal with such buildings. However, sections 19 and 20 will clarify and widen the powers of fire authorities to issue fire safety notices, which can require closure of a building, closure until certain things are done or the imposition of certain requirements without involving closure. Section 21 deals with appeals against notices. Fire authorities will have a separate power in section 23 to apply to the High Court for an order restricting or immediately prohibiting the use of land or buildings where there is an especially serious risk to life from fire.

Fire authorities will, of course, continue to have available to them the opportunity under various other codes, including the Licensing Acts and the Public Dance Halls Act, to ensure that adequate fire precautions are taken in such premises and section 24 ensures that they will get adequate notice of court applications connected with licensing and related legislation. Section 37 will give the Minister a reserve power to make regulations prescribing precautions to be taken in premises covered by section 18, to which I referred earlier.

The remaining major provision of Part III of the Bill is section 22. This widens the powers of inspection contained in the 1940 Act and gives substantial powers to a person authorised by a fire authority. The authorised person will be able to inspect, require information, conduct tests, take samples and so on and the fire authority itself will also have power to require the provision of plans and other information.

Part IV of the Bill, with the exception of section 37 which I have already outlined, deals with miscellaneous matters of finance and administration. Section 32 will allow the Minister, with the agreement of the Minister for Finance, to make annual or other grants to fire authorities towards the expenditure incurred by them in providing a fire service. This provision will validate the scheme of 50 per cent State subsidy on loan charges arising on capital borrowing for fire services which was introduced earlier this year and which will greatly assist fire authorities in providing new stations and equipment where these are necessary.

Section 33 allows for grants to persons or bodies engaged in fire research. Section 35 is another financial provision and it makes it clear that, with the exception of urban authorities who are fire authorities in their own right, the expenses of fire authorities will be apportionable equally over county and urban areas. The section also entitles a fire authority to charge users or beneficiaries of its services.

Section 34 makes provision, familiar in local government legislation, for the furnishing of information by fire authorities to the Minister, while section 38 is a technical measure clarifying the means by which notices under the Bill may be served. Section 36 adapts a provision of the Fire Brigades Act, 1940, so as to give immunity against legal proceedings for recovery of damages arising from the failure to discharge any of their functions under the Bill to the fire authorities, sanitary authorities and the Minister.

Before concluding I wish to emphasise that this Bill is only one of a number of measures being pursued by my Department with a view to improving the efficiency and effectiveness of the service. This is not the appropriate place to go into detail as to the work being undertaken other than to mention it in broad outline. Most of the work arises from the recommendations of the report on the fire services and includes such matter as an increased capital provision for the service, together with a 50 per cent subsidy on loan repayments, the provision of central training courses and financial assistance for central training, the preparation of guidelines for the fire service, the promotion of fire prevention education through the Fire Prevention Council and so on.

This Bill now provides a statutory framework for many of these activities and I am confident that, with the assistance of the Fire Services Council and the co-operation of the fire authorities, persons in control of premises and the general public, we can make even greater progress in gearing the fire service to meet present needs and future demands.

I commend this Bill to the House.

I will preface my remarks by wishing the Minister of State well in his post. The need for upgrading of the legislation relating to fire is very evident, especially over the past number of months with the constant newspaper headlines in regard to the Stardust tragedy. Irrespective of the outcome of the tribunal on the disaster, it can be clearly stated that some of the evidence given by the fire officers at the tribunal showed the need for action regarding the fire service.

There is obviously a very definite limit on how much the various fire authorities can afford to spend on the fire service. Even though we all accept the importance of a good fire service, I suppose we also have to keep in mind the Department's other crying needs in respect of housing, health, education and so forth. It is, therefore, particularly important that money spent on the fire service be spent to the best possible effect.

The first question that comes to mind is what constitutes the most effective measures against fire? I think the answer is obvious and that would be the absence of fire outbreak. In this matter there is no doubt that prevention is better than cure. Every possible measure should be taken which would reduce the incidence of fire outbreak and the need to summon fire brigades. There is a great tendency at present to spend massive sums of money on modern, highly sophisticated automatic detection and alarm systems, especially in public institutions. While the provision of such systems is desirable where the risk of fire is great, those systems are often fitted as if they were able to control the fires themselves and solve the problem. Very often the systems are fitted at great expense to reduce the risk of fire occurring. Fire prevention should always take precedence over alarm systems, no matter how modern they are.

The introduction of the draft building regulations even on an unofficial basis was a good move by the former Minister to make fire prevention more effective. It is essential that there be as little delay as possible in getting the regulations introduced on a formal basis. It should be emphasised that the draft regulations with regard to fire and other matters is very much a specialised document. It is important to ensure that all small builders and private owners are made aware of what type of construction or finish will be accepted. It would be important that booklets would give details of the suitable and acceptable construction and that they be made available. While there is an onus on us all to obey the law there should be an onus also on the law to put it in simple terms so that no confusion would arise.

Much of the pressure could be taken off the fire service by the application of plain common sense and a little expenditure. For example, many of our serious fires arise from the use of some modern wall linings and finishes. Many of those finishes have a very high rate of flame spread. Their use should be discouraged and people should be made aware of the inadvisability of making wide use of these materials. I have no recollection of any public warning against the use of such materials. It is generally accepted that they are widely used in the reconstruction and refurbishing businesses.

Another aspect of education regarding fire which could yield worth-while results would be the simple method of mentioning at meetings the risk of fire and explaining to the audience the exits and the fire precautions which are available. It is very important, especially at large gatherings, that people be made so aware. It might cause a bit of a scare but it would indicate to people the problems that might arise.

As our economy acquires more industries, especially the more sophisticated ones, some of them using problem chemicals, the demands on our fire service will become greater and so will the need for specialised training. It is essential that a suitable type of person be recruited for the fire service and such type of people would be recruited only if they could see a worth-while career structure in the service. The impression of no training in the service was given at the recent hearing and it could hardly be calculated to attract recruits, much less ones of the calibre required. If the services is to meet the demands on it in the future, then that position must be changed.

Section 15 states:

It shall be the duty of a fire authority to make arrangements for the efficient training of the personnel of its fire services.

That sets out the responsibility clearly and simply.

Apart from many modern high flame spread materials that are currently in use, the switch from oil to solid fuel and to the plug-in type electric heaters will also inevitably result in more fire outbreaks. The only real barrier against outbreaks in such circumstances is an awareness of the risk of fire.

It would be wrong to comment on the fire service without paying a particular tribute to the part-time fire brigades which provide a fire fighting service throughout country areas. These dedicated crews carry out their various occupations until alerted in case of fires. They provide a remarkable service and should be given the best possible training and equipment.

A frequent complaint after a fire is that the water supply at the scene was not adequate. I am glad that section 29 (2) requires that where a reasonable water supply has not been provided the sanitary authority shall consult with the fire authority as to the measures required and shall take such measures as may be agreed. This is a desirable Bill.

I should like to welcome the Minister of State and congratulate him on his appointment to the Department of the Environment. I wish him well and hope that he will be there for another four-and-a-half years.

I certainly welcome the Bill and I am sure the Seanad agrees that it is timely. This Bill was moved prior to the general election and had a Second Stage reading in the Dáil. The motive behind it is to strengthen the law in relation to fire services. The original Act was referred to in the Minister's speech. It is now approximately 40 years old and there have been many changes since.

This Bill was introduced by the last Government and was welcomed by everybody. I have no doubt that it will serve its purpose. The present Minister for the Environment made one change and that was to provide for the establishment of a fire service council. There are a number of minor changes and amendments but that is the major change and it will be of great benefit.

The Bill clearly brings within its ambit other legislation dealing with dangerous substances, dancehalls, office premises and the Safety at Work Act. These are all essential and I have no doubt that there will be greater protection against fire.

The basic function of the fire authority is to provide a prompt, efficient service to extinguish fires as quickly as possible. A number of brigades operate within the country. We have in the built-up areas whole-time firemen and in rural areas, part-time firemen. Like Senator Leonard I would like to compliment these, particularly the part-time firemen in rural Ireland who have done a great job and have not been over-paid.

I had the experience of being a member of a part-time fire brigade. The reason I joined was that at that time Leitrim County Council gave training to people who were interested in fire fighting in order to protect their own property. A number of people in any fair-sized town used get instructions from the county council. Naturally they received no payment, but in the event of fire there were in public buildings, such as the courthouses, a number of hoses and branch pipes and everybody within that town area could make the connection to try to get water into the area that was on fire as quickly as possible. For that reason I want to thank the part-time people. They did and are still doing a great job. At present they are being trained in the use of breathing apparatus which is essential but which can be rather difficult equipment to use properly. It is very important to deal with major fires, particularly where there is danger of death.

That brings me to another point which I would like to make very strongly concerning the whole question of inspections. The normal procedure was that somebody who was the owner of a dance hall, disco or hotel applied for a licence at the end of the year and the fire officer carried out one inspection. He then gave the licence to operate for the coming year. I have no evidence that he went back there to see how these premises were being operated. We can look at two fairly recent tragic fires, the Stardust in Dublin and the hotel in Bundoran, County Donegal. One thing that has emerged from the reports is that doors were certainly locked in one case and in the other the doors were sealed up. I have no doubt that if these places had been inspected regularly at least a number of people would have been saved in both fires. I am not prepared to say that everybody would have been saved, but I am quite satisfied that a number would have been. For that reason it is an essential that the fire officer or somebody else should have a look at these premises over the year.

Recently I happened to be at a dinner dance and I would say the hall was capable of holding 400 people. I would estimate that about 250 people were there. A number of people came in late to the function and a table was set up for them at one of the exits. That is completely wrong. I suppose if I were a good citizen I would have gone up to them and told them to put the table somewhere else. There was plenty of space across the hall for it but it was the easiest place to put it. Maybe we would all do the same; maybe it was done without thought. For that reason I think that inspections should be carried out on all these places.

We have the question of the dangerous chemicals. I feel that there will have to be far more attention paid by the Department of the Environment to spillage.

I welcome this Bill. It is unfortunate that it comes before the House basically as a result of a tragedy. Too often legislators seem to follow rather than lead. The Bill basically updates the earlier legislation on fire safety and co-ordinates the fire services which up to now were fragmented to a large degree.

The first thing one must do is compliment the voluntary fire officers from all over the country who with very little training and very little co-operation from employers and often very little co-operation from the general public maintained a fire service which was adequate to a reasonable degree. Because it was of a voluntary nature delays could occur which meant that on occasions fires which might have been minor in nature did get out of control because voluntary people had to be called from their jobs. It is becoming increasingly essential throughout the country that fire services should not be of a voluntary nature and that we should have at least a number of trained, permanent fire personnel in each fire station. In a city like Kilkenny it is virtually impossible during the day for a member of the fire service to travel from one side of the city to the other to get to the fire station. We have in Kilkenny a small number of permanent fire officers but we are still basically looking towards the voluntary firemen for the bulk of our service.

The problems that have arisen in the two major fires where death occurred in the past two years could have been multiplied many times but for a little luck. We have had fires in Dublin, Cork and Limerick in which a large amount of property was burnt, but luckily there were very few people trapped or killed. The fire service must take a lot of the credit for the prevention of the spread rather than the actual damping down of the fire itself.

One of the results of this Fire Services Bill is that the public will be made more aware of the need to look at fire safety services. This does not apply only to public buildings or buildings which are used by large numbers of people. A large number of fires occur in homes each year which could be prevented. Fire brigades throughout the country have to meet many calls because coming up to winter people do not clean their chimneys. Virtually every day there are fire brigade call-outs by householders which could be avoided if they had had their chimneys cleaned at the beginning of winter. It would cost very little and it would definitely save a lot of money and anxiety.

One of the problems is that quite a number of housing estates throughout the country have joint attics and there are four or five houses under the one roof. We have been very lucky that there has not been a spread of these fires, particularly in local authority housing.

The public should be made aware that it is up to them to insure themselves against the damage which can be caused by fire. Too often we find after a fire that the local authority have the house insured but the furniture in the house is not insured. The fact that this Bill is going through the House will give some publicity to that aspect.

Mention has been made of the transportation and storage of chemicals and goods of an explosive nature. This worries many people. A train going from Waterford to Galway passes through Kilkenny, Tipperary and Limerick. In the major urban areas there would be provision for helping out if there was an explosion or a leakage, but in the smaller towns on that route money has not been provided to the local fire services to provide the type of emergency fire-fighting equipment which is needed for gaseous or chemical explosions. This worries people who are living close to railway lines.

We have widespread use of bottled gas and transportation of bottled gas in open trucks with very little protection, often with only one chain or one preventive rail around them. These trucks are being parked in the middle of villages and towns. We have been very lucky that nothing of a serious nature has happened due to the transportation and storage of bottled gas in the middle of small towns and villages.

Local authorities have a big part to play in fire prevention in ensuring that public buildings are not allowed to be built or used in narrow streets which modern fire fighting equipment cannot reach. There are dancehalls built at the end of lanes, cinemas which are built in side streets. Then the public double park at night and there is no way a modern fire tender could gain access to these streets.

Old people's homes and hospitals for elderly people are generally built off the street. I dread to think what would happen if we had a major fire in one of these homes. The local authorities are very well aware of the problems that these buildings pose. Unfortunately the general public, and the motoring public in particular, are very slow to realise that if they double park in a narrow street they could be the cause of a very serious fire spreading. They would laugh if one told them that they could be the cause of a fire.

It is unfortunate, irrespective of whether we pass this Bill or not, that people are going to congregate in halls which are not adequate for the numbers admitted. I was listening to a radio programme one morning and heard of a girl at a pop concert in Dublin; somebody whipped off her hat and when she tried to retrieve it somebody jabbed her with a needle which was full of some sort of drug. She ended up in hospital. The point is not the fact that somebody stuck a needle in her arm but that people were jammed packed into the hall. There was no way that adequate fire prevention methods could get that crowd out of that hall.

Young people who go to pop concerts to enjoy themselves are being packed like sardines into halls from which if there was panic they would have no way of getting out. Pop concerts in Lisdoonvarna and Macroom are not the best places to send children but at least they are out in the open air and there is no way they could be caught in a fire situation. I would prefer to see a child of mine at one of these outdoor pop concerts rather than stuffed into a hall like a sardine. That type of operation will have to be looked into very carefully. Unless people are prepared to spend time inspecting these pop concerts, the Bill itself will fail. One could look at the dungeons, as they call them, in Leeson Street and other places. If there was a fire in one of those places there is no way people could get out of them.

Fire prevention is a costly business. Industry in Ireland is going to have to get involved in a co-operative manner with local authorities to provide adequate fire services for their own particular industry. A major industry which could have potential problems should in conjunction with the local authorities provide their own fire fighting service. This is the case in other countries and I do not see why it could not be the case here. It might be costly but it would not be impossible. In certain sensitive industries where there might be problems there has been co-operation on the lines I have been talking about.

The courts which license public houses and dancehalls or any places where the public gather in large numbers should have at all times a report from the local fire services on the adequacy or inadequacy of the exits from these places.

The Bill is one that we welcome and it is very necessary, but it is only in the implementation of the Bill that it will either do or not do the job for which it is set up. I sincerely hope that when one looks at the background of this Bill one realises the problems that can arise because of delays in implementing legislation. There have been talks about bringing in this Fire Services Bill for the last nearly 15 or 16 years and, unfortunately, it was not until we had a major tragedy that the Bill was finally brought forward. Too often legislation like this which, on the surface, might not seem very important, or might be held back because there are more important and more urgent items to go through the Dáil and Seanad, can be put on the long finger. I sincerely hope that the lesson has been learned and in future, when there seems to be a need to introduce legislation on any particular item, it should be introduced and not postponed, as this Bill has been, for so long.

I thank Senators for their kind welcome to me on my first appearance here as Minister of State at the Department of the Environment. I also thank Senator Leonard, Senator Reynolds and Senator Lanigan for their contributions to this Bill. There is a general acceptance of the necessity for this Bill and it is important that it have a speedy passage. I took a few notes of the points raised by the Members and I want to deal with them very briefly.

Senator Leonard said prevention is better than cure and I agree with him. That has been spelt out clearly in the Bill and we must concentrate on that aspect. My Department have had consultations with interested parties, including the building and construction industry, about the controlled system to administer the building regulations. I might add that there is a new Bill coming before the House dealing with building regulations. It will include the recommendations made in this Bill which, I agree, is very important.

The Minister hopes to bring the necessary legilsation to give effect to the building regulations before the Oireachtas as soon as possible. I do not think it would be proper for me to discuss the contents of that legislation at this stage but I want to give an assurance to Senator Leonard that the points he raised will be dealt with in that Bill.

As regards the points raised by Senator Reynolds when he spoke about carelessness in places where the public congregate, he mentioned dancehalls and other areas of that sort, in reading through this Bill he will find that aspect is being taken care of. What is being put into effect in this legislation is what we have, unfortunately, learned from some very tragic occurrences over the past year or so. I agree wholeheartedly that this is an area which must be dealt with. I accept the point that among the public, there seems to be an unawareness of the dangers and hazards of fire.

The Department are at present examining the need for Irish standards in the fire area and especially in the context of the fire safety provisions of the Bill. The Institute for Industrial Research and Standards were asked in August last to undertake the work necessary to prepare an Irish standard for upholstered furniture used in places of public assembly. This was also mentioned by Senator Leonard. This work is already under way and it is hoped that a standard will be ready early in the new year. This standard could be given legal backing by regulation under section 37 of the Bill. The possibility of preparing other standards is being pursued with the IIRS.

I want to thank the Members who have contributed to the debate. I want to impress on Senators the necessity to have the Bill enacted as soon as possible. I can assure the Seanad that as soon as this Bill is enacted, every effort will be made to put it into operation. It is very necessary that controls be tightened. This is a very comprehensive Bill. While the transportation of dangerous chemicals is not a matter for my Department, I accept the point made. It is a matter for the Department of Labour and I understand that recently, legislation was introduced to deal with that very dangerous activity.

I sincerely hope this Bill will deal with the problems we are tackling at the moment and that it will be accepted. I want to thank Senators very sincerely for their contributions.

Question put and agreed to.

An Leas-Chathaoirleach

When is it proposed to take the Committee Stage?

It is proposed to take it next Wednesday.

We have no objection to taking it now.

I am anxious to get it now because it is important that this Bill be enacted as soon as possible.

Agreed to take remaining Stages today.

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