Litter Bill, 1981: Second Stage (Resumed).

Question again proposed: "That the Bill be now read a Second Time."

Mr. McDonald

I presume there will be a Minister present for this debate. I should like to make a few comments on this Bill which I welcome. There is no doubt that we need to make stringent efforts to conserve our environment right across the country. The only doubt I have is in regard to whether this is going to be another piece of legislation that will be left unenforced right across the country. When I see additional powers being given to local authorities I look fairly seriously at the powers the same local authorities acquired over the last couple of years. I am thinking of the Anti-Pollution Act and the Occasional Trading Act. Neither of those Acts is being adequately enforced throughout this country.

As one travels along some roads one is ashamed to see these occasional traders either selling from barrels or selling from ordinary stalls and one never sees the licences they are supposed to display. They have music playing which contravenes another Act as well. I hope that local authorities will be financed by the appropriate Department to carry out their functions. Indeed, in the Litter Bill there are some costly items for which money will have to be found. I hope the Minister will give the House an indication of how it is proposed to finance the additional responsibilities that local authorities will be asked to undertake. For instance, there is the introduction of litter wardens and the entire scheme that goes with them. Indeed, the provisions of section 2 will increase the costs of the local authorities who are at present working on very strained budgets right across the country. Will they have the finance to implement this Bill when enacted by both Houses of the Oireachtas?

Neither the anti-pollution legislation nor the Occasional Trading Act is being implemented in many parts of the country at present. As a matter of fact, the menace would appear to be growing. These go hand in hand because where occasional trading is carried on, the hallmark is certainly pollution and litter; places are usually left in a dreadful state. I very much regret that no effort has been made to improve the situation. In all market towns you have people in the private sector, the small shopkeepers, trying to carry on a trade with ever-increasing overheads and these occasional traders come in and take a fair slice of the spending power in an area and thumb their noses at the law. Even after last year's legislation on which we spent hours here last summer, there is no sign of a check on these people. They, I presume, are trading without the disability of having to pay either VAT or tax and obviously have no licences either.

I hope that this legislation will be taken seriously because we certainly need it across the country. In recent years local authorities have put on a comprehensive and fairly good service in most counties. Practically every hamlet or village has at least a weekly refuse collection which is of great benefit. It is such a shame to find our sylvan settings and pastoral scenes marred by discarded plastic and tin cans and bottles. Tough measures must be taken. Something can also be done through our educational system. There must be something seriously wrong with the civics curriculum in our schools when it obviously has no effect on the youth of the country. If one goes through any town, especially on Sunday mornings one will find that in the vicinity of every fast food outlet one is almost ankle deep in litter. The educational system could make a contribution here.

I welcome this Bill. There is much that will require greater elucidation on Committee Stage. I would like the Minister to guarantee that councils will be given the extra finance to ensure that this Bill when it becomes an Act will be implemented. I would like to know what steps will be taken to ensure that it is not left lying on the shelf and ignored by all. It is absolutely useless having legislation in a democracy unless the public respect the legislation and make a genuine effort. In regard to the vast majority of our people it is not necessary to have such legislation because they have a pride and joy and respect for both private and public property. There is a small percentage of thoughtless persons for whom unfortunately we have to have this legislation, and that legislation will have to be made tougher so that the penalties will sting and people will know that they have offended against the public decency. I wish the Minister success with this Bill and hope he will indicate how finance will be made available.

Mr. W. Ryan

I did not intend to speak on this Bill because previous speakers have covered it fairly well. But coming in here today my attention was drawn to something that is worth mentioning. The area around this House could be regarded as probably the most important part of the city of Dublin. We have some very fine buildings here, this one in particular, and a number of others in Merrion Street, Kildare Street and Merrion Square. If one walks over to Merrion Square one will see plates on a number of houses where famous people were either born or lived during their time. I would imagine when tourists come to this country from outside that this is one of the first parts of the city that they come to. I am very disappointed to have to say that it is, like many other parts of the city, sadly neglected.

Across the road we have a park. I do not know who is responsible for the park, the Board of Works or the Corporation. But that park is definitely a credit to whoever is in charge. It was not always like that. I can remember a time when it was overgrown with weeds. But in recent years that park has been considerably inproved. I have to stop there as far as praise in concerned. It is often said that "you judge the book by the cover." One could not judge that park by the cover, because if one walks around the park on the outside it is a disgrace. First of all there is a footpath there which is completely broken up and is even worse than a mountain trail. On that roadway there is an abandoned car which has been there for about two months. When I first noticed that car it was in good condition. But every day some little thing was gone from the car. Today I noticed that there is only one wheel, and probably tomorrow there will be none.

I cannot understand why whoever is responsible for the upkeep of the city should leave a car like that there all this time. Friends of mine have complained that they have parked their cars, perhaps in an area where they should not have parked, and when they came back the car was gone; it was not stolen but it was taken away by the Corporation. It is a mystery to me why that car cannot be taken away. Around the country and in Dublin there are piles of crocks of cars. We must remember that they all started with one car. If that one car was removed when it was dumped, that dump might not be there today. I say this in the hope that some action will be taken to remove that crock of a car from Merrion Street in order that others will not be dumped there in the near future.

The park is perfect inside, but no attention has been paid to trees, bushes and weeds growing out from the park onto the roadway. We are passing a Bill today on litter and we should start cleaning up in the vicinity of this area first. I am not too sure what constituency it is in but I think that it is in the Minister's own constituency, and I would like him to take action if it is.

I would like to say a few words about the Bill in general. Every year there is a competition sponsored by Bord Fáilte, The Tidy Towns Competition. While many of those towns and villages and smaller places have done quite a lot of good work as far as that competition is concerned, they cannot all win prizes. A lot of credit is due to those who have never won a prize but have still kept up the good work down through the years.

The local authorities, particularly the county councils, are helping those community councils in a small way. But they should get greater aid. All this work is done voluntarily. But to make a success of the work one has to hire or purchase machines for cutting grass and so on. It is only right that a grant of some kind should be made available to those communities who are doing their utmost to keep this country a tidy one and a better place to live in.

Mr. Durkan

I would like to make a few brief references. First of all I would like to welcome the Bill and to congratulate the Minister on its introduction, on the basis that it might engender in our population a greater sense of civic pride and civic responsibility. This has already been referred to by a number of speakers both today and during the last sitting of this House.

It was suggested on one occasion that if one gets off a plane and travels from our international airport towards the city centre one's eyes are immediately assaulted with evidence of a lack of caring on the part of the general population in the manner in which they dispose of litter indiscriminately. For far too long we have allowed a situation to develop whereby litter of all descriptions is dumped indiscriminately. Let me point out that there are the new types of litter, the disposable packs and other new kinds of materials. In the past we were dealing entirely with glass and paper but now we have a number of synthetic substances, many of which are quite dangerous and are, unfortunately, being indiscriminately dumped everywhere at present.

The penalties relating to offences under this Act, when it becomes law, will be very important to the success of the Bill because, as has already been stated, unless the Bill can be enforced there will be absolutely no improvement in the appearance of our public parks, our roads, our towns and our cities. That must be the objective in bringing this Bill into operation.

I would like also to underline the remarks of a number of other speakers in relation to its operation and its cost to the local authorities concerned. Over the past couple of years a number of new Bills were introduced imposing obligations on local authorities which require extra finance but unfortunately extra finance has not been specifically provided to allow those local authorities to operate the provisions of particular Bills. This is very important in relation to this Bill, because in section 1 there is reference to wardens. Unless finance is provided to the local authorities to employ wardens local authorities will have to let go some of their staff or deploy some of their existing staff from other areas, which will then be operating at a disadvantage. In section 2 there is also reference to measures which the local authorities can take. We have to be realistic and accept that any of the measures referred to will also require extra expenditure.

Section 3(2) and 3(4) provide that nothing in this section or in section 4 of this Act shall be construed as prohibiting the disposal of waste in a place provided by the local authority for the purpose, and the section goes on to list a number of different Acts including the European Communities (Toxic and Dangerous Waste) Regulations (1982) Act. This is an area that has not obviously been covered by the Bill and which needs urgent attention, because there are a number of substances already being dumped in places provided by the local authorities and the nature of these materials and the substances concerned are totally unsuitable for dumping in such areas. Perhaps the Minister might, even at this late stage consider whether or not it would be possible to ensure that some provision is made for the dumping of these dangerous and toxic substances. We have allowed a situation to persist for too long where firms which must dump such substances have done so sometimes surreptitiously sometimes with the approval of local authorities who can provide no other area except ordinary tip-heads for dumping, and that is unfortunate. Sufficient investigation has not already been undertaken in relation to the possible effects on water or exposure in relation to some of these substances.

Other than that, I welcome the Bill. It is a positive step towards trying to ensure that we present the best possible appearance to the visitor and also to ourselves and to our children.

Mr. Fallon

Like other speakers I welcome the Bill. I know that it is a matter that is dear to the Minister's heart. He certainly would prefer a cleaner and healthier environment, and that is something he is aiming at in this Bill. It is fair to say that we should regret that it is necessary because we have not a greater awareness of civic pride within ourselves. That is lacking, unfortunately.

The purpose, as I mentioned, is to create and to give us a cleaner and healthier environment, to improve the appearance of our towns, of our villages, of our cities. It is not the first time that we have had a Bill of this type. We had one when Deputy Tully was Minister for Local Government, as the Department was called then, dealing with indiscriminate dumping. We had then fines and penalties of sizeable proportions. But unfortunately that did not work. Indiscriminate dumping continued and very few people, as far as I know, were brought to court and fined the maximum fines. I felt all along that the Bill was strong enough; if we could have brought people to court and highlighted the fact that there were fines and the cases were generally suitably mentioned in the various local presses of Ireland, then it might have had some impact. But that was not the way. I hope that under this Bill, with the fines available, with the penalties available, that many people will be brought to court and fined, and this may well be the answer to this problem.

Many Members have mentioned the role of the community. The role of the community in this problem is very important indeed. Praise must certainly be given to the Bord Fáilte "Tidy Towns Competition". I think it is a bit unfair for the larger towns to have to compete for the same pool of votes as a smaller village or a smaller town competes for. The Minister last week made it quite clear that conditions are especially bad in the urban areas — the bigger the area the worse the conditions generally. That is true. It is far easier to win a tidy towns competition if the area is small. The proof is there. Mountshannon won it last year. New-townforbes has won it. These are beautiful tiny villages where a good small active committee can do wonders, where the parish priest can be vital, as we have seen in the past, where maybe the local sergeant can whip up the support necessary. To put them on the same plain as, say, a town like Athlone which is a growing, straggling town, is very unfair.

Something I would like to see introduced in some way in the Bill if at all possible is the role of dumps in our society. They can be very damaging indeed to our environment and damaging to our health. Unfortunately in many towns in Ireland they are placed right in the centre of the towns. Certainly I would like to think that the dumps of the future will be placed well away from the towns and villages of Ireland.

The role of the local authority is vital in this Bill, as it has been in other Bills. The Leas-Chathaoirleach mentioned the Casual Trading Act, which will cost local authorities money to implement. There has been a series of legislation dealing with the powers of local authorities — the Housing (Rented Dwellings) Act and the Water Pollution Act, 1977 and so on. We have all been talking about the erosion of powers of the local authorities and it is fair to say that they would welcome extra powers, but extra work brings problems of additional staffing and we are not getting additional staffing. The financial base of the local authorities seems to be diminishing and at the same time extra work is being given to them. This is not fair. Maybe the Minister will explain what section 14 means. It says: "Money accruing to a local authority under this Act shall be disposed of in accordance with regulations made by the Minister". Can I assume that all penalties and all fines collected will go automatically to the local authority in question? If this Bill is to be totally successful — and I am sure it will be — it needs more finance.

We mentioned the Water Pollution Act, 1977. Ireland's reputation as one of the last clean and relatively pollution-free areas of Europe has taken a battering in recent weeks and it has been savagely hit by pollution. Many areas of pollution have affected us — pollution of our rivers is becoming a problem; fish life is affected. For example the international angling press and angling magazines are highlighting, and have highlighted in the past, that pig slurry is going into Lough Sheelin.

I am making this point because under the Water Pollution Act the local authority could have tackled this problem if they had more money. I read recently about the contamination of water supplies in two towns in County Meath where farm effluent entered the water. I am making the point that because we had not sufficient funds to implement the Water Pollution Act we have this terrible situation. I am hoping that enough finance will be given to the local authorities to enable them to deal with this important Litter Bill.

The image of the local authority must be considered in this Bill. We might forget that millions of pounds have been spent on various projects — sewerage, water schemes and in many other areas — yet the streets are littered. If our towns seem untidy, that is the image that is taken away by the tourist. It is important that we have tidy towns and streets and this area will, I hope, be dealt with in this Bill.

Someone mentioned the role of education. Greater emphasis should be put on civics in the curriculae of the various schools, teaching our young children the importance of keeping our streets tidy, getting them out collecting papers and so on. That is important work and should be expanded in every way possible.

I would like to congratulate the Minister for bringing forward the Bill. I know he will endeavour to implement it as best he can. It is a Bill that I welcome and wish it every success.

Mrs. Barnes

I welcome the Bill and I welcome the Minister to the House. The Minister said that the Litter Bill cannot cover some of the other emergency and modernising legislation we need with regard to the whole environment. I do not think that we can allow the Second Stage of this Bill to pass without remarking on the implications of litter for the environment. The most deadly litter of all arises from the transporting in open lorries of offal and other revolting, unhealthy and unhygienic loads.

There is another kind of transporting that must be the concern of all local authorities, that is the transporting of very dangerous chemicals which are needed for some of our industries. We must demand that proper safeguards be introduced to control the transporting of such chemicals and materials. In case of accidents each local authority should have an emergency area and provide an emergency service that would be aware of the substances passing through their areas and would know how to cope with an accident if it should happen.

An Leas-Chathaoirleach

I am slow to interrupt the Senator but that would appear to be outside the scope of the Bill which deals with anything related to litter. Dangerous substances were covered in an Act we discussed last year. The Chair would appreciate it if you could relate your remarks to litter and to the Bill before the House.

Mrs. Barnes

I accept the Chair's ruling. However, I could not let this opportunity pass without raising once again a matter which I consider to be absolutely urgent. We have not attended to it yet and I do not think we could look ourselves in the face if a castastrophe occurred because we did not bring in legislation to cover this matter.

I see litter as being related in great part to the protection of the environment as a whole. While I am constrained to remain within the scope of the Bill, I think that we must all have a commitment to safeguard the environment. Sometimes the repulsively visual evidence of the little care we give to our environment can be seen in our streets. If we do not care on a litter level we certainly will not care on other levels.

The implications of introducing what might be considered an advantage in one area can also lead to litter problems. I particularly mention the new problem that has arisen in the primary school playgrounds. With the free distribution of milk there is also the big problem of dealing in a clean, healthy and hygienic way with the milk cartons. Certain schools in my own area, and in other areas, need extra receptacles to ensure that such cartons are dealt with quickly and do not increase the litter already polluting the school yard.

Lastly, and this is by way of a passionate plea, I believe that there is a negative and positive way of dealing with everything. One of the most positive ways we can deal with litter is by not alone creating an attitude that will not allow us to pollute our environment, but also by constructively using waste and litter to improve another part of the environment.

The Minister or other Members of either House may have had an opportunity to travel to Europe where certain cities through the constructive use of the recycling of their waste, have managed to meet their heating and energy needs. I welcome the measures introduced to facilitate and encourage the recycling of waste. I would like positive measures to be taken and research might be done to positively channel such waste and litter to produce energy. Again we come back to protecting the environment so that we need not use the same amount of energy from other polluting agencies. Perhaps on Committee Stage the Minister might be able to elaborate on the recycling of such waste.

Mr. Lanigan

Like the other Members I welcome the Minister to this House and also welcome the introduction of this Bill. It might seem that this Bill is not of grave importance when we think of all the problems we have on the national scale, but I think it is one of the most important Bills that has been presented to the House, and I sincerely hope that on the passing of it we will see improvements throughout the country.

We heard in the past about how dirty Ireland is when compared with other countries, and we heard of dirty Dublin, dirty Limerick and dirty Kilkenny. Unfortunately, the image has gone out that we are a dirty nation. I do not totally agree with the remarks by people who come in here and say we are a dirty nation, because having travelled reasonably extensively I know there are countries which are better than us in terms of hygiene and there are many countries which are a lot worse. I do not want to deal with the countries which are worse; what I want to do is ensure nobody can come in here after the introduction of this Bill and say that we as a nation are dirty.

The introduction of the Bill and the increase of penalties is not going to change the situation. The only way changes will come about is if there is an implementation of the provisions of this Bill. There is one thing that we have in Ireland and in the EEC, at present that is, a proliferation of laws and a proliferation of legal responsibilities, but as yet we have not got the means to attend them. We are full of good ideas, but we are not dealing with the problems. We have not got enough policemen, we have not got enough litter wardens or traffic wardens. We are introducing legislation without introducing the means of dealing with the problem.

One of the biggest polluters is the Department of the Environment, not directly, but through their local authorities. As members of a local authority, we come across each week cases where people are looking for an extension of refuse collection. We cannot extend the refuse collection to each house in our area because we in Kilkenny have not got the money to buy a new refuse collection vehicle. At present we rent refuse collection vehicles. The system of renting refuse collection vehicles is not totally successful because these people are working for hire and they are not as responsible as the people who drive the refuse collection vehicles owned by the council.

In many parts of the country we have refuse collection points, where people living in a broad area bring refuse and leave it there for collection, maybe once or twice a week. What happens is that the area around the refuse collection point becomes polluted. The refuse truck collects from the points at which it is supposed to collect, but there could be an area of a quarter of a mile each side of the collection point which is totally polluted. If it is a wet day the water brings the muck and dirt from the refuse collection point down the road or up the road, if it is a breezy day the refuse is scattered all over the countryside. It depends on the type of receptacle the people use to bring their refuse to the point whether we have a tidy collection point. It should be essential, as is done in other countries, that if you have a refuse collection point, it should be defined not just by a sign, but by having an actual refuse collection unit that people can put the refuse into and that the refuse will remain in until the refuse collection vehicle comes along.

Mention has been made of the vehicles travelling throughout the country with animal offals. There is nothing so despicable as to be in the city of Kilkenny four or five days a week and having open offal trucks pass through. If people do not know a truck with offal has gone through the city of Kilkenny they might think that the city was back in the sixteenth century with open sewers, because the effect is the same.

An Leas-Chathaoirleach

The Chair must again point out that we are dealing with the Litter Bill. I know some of these matters are related, but I would prefer if you could confine your remarks to the Litter Bill before the House.

Mr. Lanigan

If offal falls off a truck it is littering the countryside. What I am suggesting is that something should be done about it because I respectfully suggest that comes under the aegis of the Bill.

An Leas-Chathaoirleach

If the offal falls off, and that would be a rare occasion, I agree it would become litter. The regulations covering the air pollution are——

Mr. Lanigan

I have got my point across, and you will agree that if offal falls off a truck it is litter.

I wonder why in section 3 (5) (b) if the vehicle is the subject of a hire purchase agreement it should not come under the aegis of the Bill. If a person hires a vehicle for the purpose of the Road Traffic Act he is responsible for anything that happens to that vehicle. Why under the Litter Bill is he not responsible for littering? It seems peculiar that if a person is responsible under the Road Traffic Act, he is not responsible under this Bill.

Will money be provided to the local authorities to employ litter wardens, or do we have occasional litter wardens in the countryside? The fines have been extended from £10 to £800. There is a certain vagueness in this, in the sense that it does state that we can have a system of on-the-spot fines. I did not read that these on-the-spot fines were defined as being £10, £20 or £100.

Mr. Brady

(Dublin South-East): Five pounds to start.

Mr. Lanigan

Does this mean if a child drops a lollipop paper on the ground he can be fined £5, or if somebody drops offal off the load, he will only be fined a fiver? There is a certain vagueness about this.

In Kilkenny, going back to the thirteenth century, every person who had a premises in a street, under the by-laws had to clean outside his premises every day or he was fined. The fine in 1290 was sixpence. I would not like to relate the value of money in terms of sixpence in that day to £800 today, but I would like to have the interest on the sixpence over the intervening centuries. I ask the Minister to incorporate into the Bill a suggestion that each individual householder, or each individual businessman, be forced to clean outside his premises each day. This is done on the continent, and in various places in America. Before people close their shops at night they wash the pavement and clean outside their own premises. We might be able to incorporate this into the Bill without a tremendous amount of difficulty.

Who is the litter lout? I have seen people who would not consider themselves louts by any stretch of their own imagination throwing cigarette cartons out the windows of their cars, cleaning out their cars in public car parks, going for a drive to the seaside in the summertime, sending the wife and the children down to the beach and they clean out the car in front of the beach. These people would not consider themselves litter louts, but they are as big louts as the person who goes through the countryside breaking windows, because they are doing as much damage as the vandals.

The local authorities put up signs in various places saying "Do not dump". Invariably where people see such a sign they converge on it. They find out that there is a nice little place for dumping. The local authorities are merely creating dumps by putting up "No dumping" signs. They are showing people that there is an old quarry or some place that can be used for dumping.

On the elimination of litter from our countryside, we seem to be hung up with quarries or old sandpits to put our litter into. I do not think enough care has been taken to look into the modern ways of disposing of litter. The energy content of what we dump must be enormous if it could be recycled. It has been stated that the cost of putting up a recycling plant would be enormous in certain areas, but if one takes the amount of energy that could be got from recycling I think the initial costs could be recovered very smartly. In other countries quarries and old sand pits are used for environmental purposes. They can be used as ornamental lakes, as places where people can converge and boat, or they can be turned into picnic areas, but we are turning them into dumps.

The dump for Kilkenny city is seven miles away on one side. If you wanted to bring litter to a dump in Kilkenny you could have to travel up to 28 miles. People, environmentally are getting conscious of the fact that they do not want the dumps near their own houses. Therefore it is going to become increasing more difficult to get places for local authorities to use as dumps. We will have to do a lot more research into the disposal of the litter we are now dumping into quarries.

I sincerely hope that the maximum penalties will be imposed and that local authorities particularly will get the finance to employ enough people to ensure that the penalties can be imposed. This is a very important Bill and I am glad that it has come into the House. I know from what the Minister has said that he is well disposed towards it, and I hope that the powers in this Bill will be used at all times.

Mr. Belton

May I congratulate the Leas-Chathaoirleach on his appointment, and may I especially welcome the Minister. I suppose I am the only Senator here — Senator Robinson is not here at the moment — who has spent a considerable time with the Minister on a local authority. We are particularly fortunate that he is dealing with this Bill, because I am fully aware of his dedication and his sincerity to make the city and the county a more pleasant place for everyone to live in.

In the first sentence he says that the main purpose of the Bill was to improve the law relating to littering, and in particular to strengthen the hand of local authorities in dealing with litter offences and indiscriminate fly-post and graffiti and slogan writing. He said the Bill also contained new provisions relating to abandoned vehicles. These are very laudable and desirable objectives. We all agree that there is great need for improvement in our standards, and to achieve this it is not necessary for us to have any great skill, or any special degrees, to pass laws relating to it, nor is it necessary to go to any great expense. It is true that we can pass laws here and that we can make regulations governing indiscriminate littering, but this will only have limited success. I agree with the Minister when he said that when people decide they prefer clean surroundings to littered and untidy conditions, and when they are prepared to make the small effort required to solve this problem, then the problem will be well on the road to being solved.

Quite an amount of littering is caused by carelessness and indifference. People do not realise the harm they are doing and the unsavoury conditions they are creating for others in the area. As a member of the Dublin City Council, as the Minister was too until recently, I intend to confine my remarks mainly to the urban areas but I will make a passing reference to rural areas. Passing through rural areas we can see posters advertising carnivals, sports fixtures, auctions and so on. Those are all a necessary part of our day to day living. In this regard, political parties are fairly well to the fore. In many cases their posters remain long after the event has passed. I did not notice it until the last few years, but in certain rural areas there is a practice of dividing the areas between different candidates, each candidate confining himself to a special area. They seem to take special pride in putting up posters with photographs of themselves, sometimes covered with cellophane to protect them from the weather. I notice cases where there were rather——

Mr. Lanigan

Politicians need protection from the weather.

Mr. Belton

——rough frames on those posters, to guarantee that they would stay. I mentioned to a certain Member of the other House that I happened to see his photograph prominently displayed during the Seanad election in a part of the country. I asked would he not think of taking it down. He said "Well, I would take it down if I was guaranteed that I would not have to put it up again in six months. After all, they are fairly expensive and it costs a bit to put them up".

Be that as it may, it is true that this problem is more prevalent and more conspicuous in the urban areas. The greater the urban area, the greater the problem. Dublin, as the capital city, poses the greatest problem of any local authority in this regard. It is a common sight to see posters. I am sure that everybody here has seen them stuck on important places and vantage points. Hoardings on a public building in Dame Street — in past years owned by Hely's — are completely covered in posters advertising all sorts of events. One that caught my fancy there was advertising Meat Loaf. I thought it was some form of food, but discovered it is some performer who is to come to the National Stadium or somewhere else.

Mr. Brady

(Dublin South-East): No, it is a very good rock group.

Mr. Belton

Fly-posting, graffiti, abandoned cars and offensive slogans are the main problems in the Dublin area. All of those damage both trade and tourism. Our Ministers travel to different countries, quite rightly, trying to get extra trade. It does not make good sense or good economics for Ministers to travel to our neighbouring country and spend time and money trying to promote trade, although I agree with this, when those people on coming here see offensive slogans: It will not encourage them to trade with us and will also damage our tourist trade. We have been told on many occasions that our tourist trade is our second major industry.

I am sure the Minister is aware that in Dublin we have established a Keep Dublin Tidy committee in the last 12 months. This committee consists of members of the city council, some members from the city traders, representatives of Dublin Tourism, of the Combined Residents' Association and the Tenants' Association and An Taisce. They have all come together to try to formulate ways and means of making Dublin a more attractive and tidier city and a city that will attract tourists, rather than discourage them from coming here. They intend, in the not too distant future, to establish a certain pilot area. They are promised the assistance and co-operation of all those organisations in trying to show what can and should be done to make the city what we all would like it to be. I am sure that the Minister, as a Dubliner, taking pride in his own city, is fully aware of the formidable task that they face in this respect.

There are a few things I would ask the Minister to take note of. I am not sure if they are fully covered in the Bill. He should make provision in the new Act for dealing with abandoned refuse containers and skips. These are not necessarily vehicles but are abandoned on the streets and there should be some powers for dealing with those. The local authorities as the people carrying out this task, should have powers to declare that car wrecks or parts of wrecks are classed as litter and not as parts of vehicles. This would make it much easier, because trying to deal with abandoned cars has been a very long drawn-out process. We do not know when we can say that they are completely abandoned.

Could the Minister include some provision in the Bill in respect of litter bins and plastic sacks which are used quite a lot now — I do not know if they are going to be allowed under the new Bill? These are sometimes put out a day or two before the bin collection day. Could he make it a rule that they can be put out only on the day of collection? When interfered with by stray dogs they create a horrible mess on the streets. I am sure everybody has seen this happening.

I join with several others here who have asked for a guarantee that when this Bill is passed the local authorities will have adequate finances to employ the necessary number of wardens. We can pass Bills, make laws and regulations, but if we are not allowed or have not the necessary finance to employ wardens to enforce those rules and regulations, then a lot will go for nought.

I am sure that other local authorities are in the same position as Dublin City Council. Today they are before the Labour Court, trying to come to a settlement in a situation where a strike has been voted for by practically every section of the workers. The strike is imminent because the City Manager has told them that he has not the necessary money to give them the increase they are looking for. Were it not for the fact that we got some extra money this year due to certain happenings and events in the Dublin area——

Mr. P. Reynolds

The Gregory deal.

Mr. Belton

That was one of the main reasons. Were it not for that, I am reliably informed that there would be quite an amount of redundancies for Dublin City Council workers. Unless the Minister can give us a guarantee that the necessary funds will be made available, I do not see how the council are going to employ those people.

I would also like him to tell us what will happen to the on-the-spot fines. The local authorities are empowered to impose on-the-spot fines. When they collect those fines, what will happen to them? Will they be left with the local authority, or will they be given into the Central Fund?

The success of the Bill depends a lot on the litter wardens. Unless the Minister can use his influence to have moneys allocated for the employment of these wardens I can see the Bill running into many difficulties.

In conclusion, I am glad to see the Minister here. I know that he will do everything in his power to see that this Bill, when passed, will become effective. From this side of the House we thoroughly endorse the Bill. As the Cathaoirleach has arrived, may I congratulate her on her appointment?

Mr. Robb

It is of great interest to Senator Mallon and myself to see that there has been this renewed attempt to deal with the litter problem in Ireland. I can well remember my six year old boy going for his first holiday to Donegal — I will not mention the town. He said: "Isn't that funny, Daddy. They say ‘Keep Ireland tidy.' Why are my lolly papers down their street?" I thought that was a good subject for his first letter to The Irish Times.

The point I would like to make is this. While we must welcome this attempt by legislation to prevent the extension of the litter problem and while we must consider very strongly the need for effective penalties, I do not subscribe to the idea that finance, or penalties, will, in the long run, cope with the very deep problem of litter. Litter is symptomatic of a deep malaise in the society in which we exist. At its worst, the biggest eyesore in the town in which I live are not the bottles and the rubbish one sees scattered around the streets, but the boarded-up seedy side of capitalism down that street, where property which has been disused for a number of years is awaiting an appropriate moment for a speculative buyer to take it over. I would like to put forward the viewpoint that litter is, in fact, symptomatic of a social sickness and a lack of pride.

I heard it expressed earlier that the worst problem is the urban areas. I would ask the House to consider the difficulties that a warden or a garda will have where there is overcrowding, high-rise tenement dwellings and social deprivation compared with the similar garda or warden exercising his activities in a rural town in Ireland. They are in totally different circumstances.

I would ask the Minister — and apologise if it was dealt with during the last day's discussion, when I was not here — has he considered how we are going to mobilise the goodwill that exists, so that we can re-establish pride in community living? How, in effect, are we going to create the social space where people feel they belong, are welcomed as participants and have the way of finding self-expression in their lives so that they become proud of the community in which they exist? There are far too many communities in Ireland where one cannot feel proud.

I maintain that in the long run it will be very difficult to enforce what seems to be so desirable legislation but I also suspect that it will be seen as another outreach of central State forces dealing with people who, perhaps, are living in less than socially acceptable surroundings. To overcome that danger, must we not, in litter as in everything else, stimulate ideas for the community forum? Those ideas should invite consideration of some way of rewarding the citizen who attends the forum, should it be a quarterly attendance or whatever, to discuss matters such as litter, such as the offal being offloaded down the main street of Kilkenny.

As an aside, I am grateful to Senator Lanigan for explaining to me why it was that Miss Kettle's establishment has remained so clean throughout the centuries. Sixpence was, indeed, a very high penalty in the days when she was living.

To get back to my main point, it will be very difficult to enforce this legislation. We must look at the other side of the coin and ask how we can re-establish pride and increase awareness of the problem. That will be done through a community forum, but is there not a need in our whole philosophy of education to give the Irish children of the future a much more locally orientated education and locally orientated experience? They will then know what is involved; they will know what it is like to run a refuse collection department; they will know where the refuse tips are, they will know the dangers; they will have, in fact, through experience as well as education, come to terms with the problems of living as mature citizens in their own community.

Minister of State at the Department of the Environment (Mr. Brady,

Dublin South-East): Firstly, I would like to express a sense of appreciation to all the Senators for the very fine contributions they have made during this debate. We had 20 Senators speaking, which is a very high percentage of the House. All the contributions were very thought provoking, constructive and meaningful, many of which I have taken note of and many of which I will firmly endeavour to implement when this legislation takes effect.

The legislation has, indeed, been recognised as an important step in our efforts to bring about an improvement in our surroundings. As Senator Robb rightly indicated, litter, apart from its historical connotations, is also a symptom of affluence. In countries that, perhaps, are more deprived than our own, it is quite extraordinary that littering is not a problem. In a nation as vast as India, there is no littering at all, because people are fighting for the very essence of survival. They will pick up pieces of string, twine, bottle ends and so on, in an endeavour to see if these items can serve any useful purpose.

We are, indeed, living in a throw-away, uncaring society that is damaging perhaps its most valuable resource, its environment. This legislation is a definite attempt to try to stem the tide. Regrettably, penalties have to be imposed. It would be ideal to appeal to the national spirit to co-operate in protecting our environment, but my experience at local government level has proved without any doubt that this will not work and that fines are necessary, penal fines and the heaviest possible fines for perpetrators of the awful offences to which many Senators referred.

The local authorities will be responsible for implementing the provisions of the Bill. As I said in my opening statement, this is giving the local authorities the power to implement on-the-spot fines and, indeed, to prosecute very severely. What is needed, of course, is a spirit of co-operation between all citizens and public elected representatives to try to instil this need for a change in our attitude to litter. I am investigating ways and means of trying to engage in a nationwide clean-up of cities and towns in order that, when the legislation becomes effective, we will be starting afresh. It is very important that, in the earlier stages, justices impose heavy fines.

A number of Senators referred to the question of waste disposal and matters relating to illegal dumping. The Bill, of course, is not designed to deal with waste disposal as such. Other regulations cover that area. Toxic and hazardous waste disposal comes under separate legislation. However, the point made by many Senators is taken. The importance of adequate provisions by local authorities for waste disposal is fully recognised by my Department. Local authorities are making continuing waste disposal plans to cope with these problems.

Senators Cregan and Barnes referred to the question of incineration and general recycling and I subscribe to this view. It is a misguided belief that recycling is not an economic proposition. Recycling is a very useful habit to inculcate into the minds of people because, at least if that habit is developed, it can be used in a time of want as well as in a time of affluence or apparent affluence. Someone referred to the possible recycling of waste materials for heating purposes. This is done to great effect in Ireland, not necessarily from the actual incineration of waste material, but using a resource to reheat. Senator Belton will be familiar with an experiment in Ballymun where they are endeavouring to put this proposition forward. I will give every possible consideration to seeing if incineration schemes can be developed further.

A number of Senators, Senator Lanigan principally, referred to various nuisance type problems associated with the transportation of waste and other materials. That is covered in the Bill in section 3, which will make it an offence for any goods to be carried uncovered in such a way as to cause litter. I agree with the emphasis which many Senators placed on education and community effort. In this area, people often refer to the question of civics being taught in schools and so on. The lesson here can be learned from children, if we listen to them. Again, I am coming back to what Senator Robb said about when he brought his son to Donegal. That is a lesson where the child can make the parent aware of the enormity of this problem. Every possible effort will be taken in my Department to try to give a new impact to education at every level to implement this legislation. We need, of course, the voluntary effort, as well as education.

Senator Murphy referred to the problem of political slogans, black flags and slogans offensive to tourists. I would like to give the Senator an assurance that these are dealt with under sections 7 and 8. Local authorities will be able to take direct action to remove offending material, or to have it removed. They will be enabled to employ a specialist service to remove grafitti, fly posting or anything of that kind.

Senators Wright and Seán Conway were concerned about the banning of bill-posting — such as posting advertising a carnival or a circus coming to a town. This is certainly not intended. A number of types of advertising will not be liable to prosecution and the House would agree rightly so. These would include advertisements which are exempt under the Local Government Planning Act of 1977. This would include advertisements for a circus or some such function coming to a town.

Senator Dowling raised the question of banning all election posters, or confining them to specified forms of locations. I am not sure that the House would welcome a radical interference with the traditional forms of advertising at election time. However, there is provision in the Bill that election posters have to be removed within seven days of an election. That is a very satisfactory position.

Senators Cregan and O'Toole referred to the problem of abandoned vehicles. This is a very vexed question which is dealt with in section 16. Senators raised the question of whether the land occupier, as well as the local authority, will be empowered to prosecute. Sections 11 and 13 make provision for the removal of such abandoned vehicles by the local authority, with the occupier's agreement. It is one thing to get legislation of this kind enacted but that, in itself, will achieve nothing. A number of Senators rightly stressed the importance of the implementation. It is very clear from the discussion of this Bill in this House and in the Dáil that widespread support is needed from every sector of the community. It is going to be a long haul. There is no doubt whatever in my mind about that.

The historical background to which Senator Murphy referred may be due to our nation not having the privilege of large ownership of land, and thereby not having an inherent investment in the enforcement of law and order. We find ourselves just a little bit ill-concerned about problems of maintaining law and order. A start has to be made. The powers which this Bill give to local authorities will go a long way towards provoking a new attitude. Many Senators gave examples in their contributions of opportunities where local authorities can give the finest example to citizens. Every possible opportunity must be taken to instill this new attitude. Section 14 provides for on-the-spot fines.

Some Senators referred to the question of finance and how the whole system will be financed. It would be my intention that the actual moneys collected, although this will come under a regulation by the Department of Finance, would go back to the local authorities to give them the incentive to make this legislation effective.

Senator Belton referred to skips. They have been covered by an amendment to the legislation.

In conclusion I thank all Senators who contributed. Coming into the summer season, I am anxious, as I am sure all Members are, to have the legislation passed, and I appeal to all local authorities to take note that the legislation is coming before them, though there will be an interim period when they can take stock and get involved in a clean-up campaign with a view to making a fresh start.

Mr. Reynolds

I have no objection whatsoever to giving the Bill to the Minister tonight, but there is a motion by my party which will take three hours. That would mean sitting after 8 o'clock. If the Minister prefers, we can hold the remaining Stages over until next week, or whatever you like. I am easy, but I want time to have the motion taken this evening. We could not do the Committee Stage in two minutes — it is nearly five o'clock. Give the Bill an hour, maybe less, maybe half an hour. We would want the House to sit until 8.30.

Mr. W. Ryan

The usual time for the adjournment is 8.30. I understand that the motion that was to be taken on the adjournment is not being taken, so that we can take the Fine Gael motion up to 8.30. We could commence the motion at 5.30 because I feel we could get the Committee Stages through in half an hour.

Mr. P. Reynolds

I am afraid there will be a division on the Committee Stage, and that will take some time. I want to be quite fair about it. If the Minister agrees to wait until next week, I will agree on condition that we get the three hours for our motion today. We will give the Minister his Bill next week. Is that not fair?

Question put and agreed to.

Committee Stage ordered for Wednesday, 23 June 1982.

Seanad Éireann debate - Wednesday, 16 Jun 1982