Seanad Éireann debate -
Wednesday, 16 Jun 1982

Vol. 98 No. 4

Joint Committee on State-Sponsored Bodies: Motion.

Mr. E. Ryan

I move:

(1) That Seanad Éireann concurs with Dáil Éireann in its Resolution communicated to Seanad Éireann on 10 June, 1982, that it is expedient that a Joint Committee (which shall be called the Joint Committee on State-Sponsored Bodies) consisting of 7 members of the Dáil and 4 members of the Seanad (none of whom shall be a member of the Government or a Minister of State) be appointed to examine the Reports and Accounts and overall operational results of State-sponsored bodies engaged in trading or commercial activities referred to in Schedule A hereto and the trading and/or commercial aspects of the Reports and Accounts and overall operational results of the State-sponsored body referred to in Schedule B hereto and to report thereon to both Houses of the Oireachtas and make recommendations where appropriate.

(2) That, after consultation with the Joint Committee, the Minister for the Public Service with the agreement of the Minister for Finance may include from time to time the names of further State-sponsored bodies engaged in trading or commercial activities in the Schedules and, with the consent of the Joint Committee and the Minister for Finance, may delete from the Schedules the names of any bodies which he considers no longer to be State sponsored bodies engaged in trading or commercial activities.

(3) That, if so requested by a State-sponsored body, the Joint Committee shall refrain from publishing confidential information regarding the body's activities and plans.

(4) That the Joint Committee shall have power to send for persons, papers and records and, subject to the consent of the Minister for the Public Service, to engage the services of persons with specialist or technical knowledge to assist it for the purpose of particular inquiries.

(5) That the Joint Committee, previous to the commencement of business, shall elect one of its members to be Chairman, who shall have only one vote.

(6) That all questions in the Joint Committee shall be determined by a majority of votes of the members present and voting and in the event of there being an equality of votes the question shall be decided in the negative.

(7) That the Joint Committee shall have power to print and publish from time to time minutes of evidence taken before it together with such related documents as it thinks fit.

(8) That every report which the Joint Committee proposes to make under this Order shall on adoption by the Joint Committee be laid before both Houses of the Oireachtas forthwith whereupon the Joint Committee shall be empowered to print and publish such report together with such related documents as it thinks fit.

(9) That 4 members of the Joint Committee shall form a Quorum of whom at least 1 shall be a member of Dáil Éireann and at least 1 shall be a member of Seanad Éireann.

Schedule A

Aer Lingus, Teoranta

Aerlinte Éireann, Teoranta

Aer Rianta, Teoranta1

The Agricultural Credit Corporation, Limited

Arramara Teoranta

Bord na Móna

British & Irish Steam Packet Company Limited

Ceimicí, Teoranta

Comhlucht Siúicre Éireann, Teoranta

Córas Iompair Éireann

Electricity Supply Board

Fóir Teoranta

Industrial Credit Company, Limited

The Irish Gas Board

Irish Life Assurance Company Limited

The Irish National Petroleum Corporation Limited

The Irish National Stud Company, Limited

Irish Shipping Limited

Irish Steel Holdings Limited

Min Fhéir (1959) Teoranta

National Building Agency Limited

Nítrigin Éireann Teoranta

Óstlanna Iompair Éireann Teoranta

Radio Telefís Éireann

Voluntary Health Insurance Board.

Schedule B

Údarás na Gaeltachta.

Mr. Durkan

This is my first opportunity to congratulate your good self on your elevation to the very prestigious position of Cathaoirleach.

In relation to item No. 1, I would like to welcome the setting up of the committee and to say a few words in relation to the responsibilities which I feel fall on those Members who are selected to act on that committee. At this time, whether it is State-sponsored bodies or private companies, it is essential that the greatest possible emphasis be placed on the necessity, on the one hand, to ensure in this instance the highest possible standard of public accountability and, on the other hand, to be able to differentiate between State-sponsored companies that are there purely for commercial reasons and those that are there to provide social services. This comes to mind particularly in relation to a number of the companies referred to in Schedule A.

I do not propose to go through the entire list. I am sure other Members will wish to do so. I will refer to the Agricultural Credit Corporation. It is a very important body and has a very important function particularly in these times of depression. It is essential that Senators, when considering the report in relation to that body have due regard to the fact that it is the ACC which will provide finance for that industry.

Another one I will mention, and it should be borne in mind by the committee, is Bord na Móna. Bord na Móna is a very healthy company and has been healthy for a number of years, but there are a number of things which should be brought to their attention. It applies particularly in my own county where over the last number of years it has become almost impossible to obtain domestic supplies in winter of fuel produced by that firm. It is unfortunate in these times when energy plays a very important part in all our lives that this should occur. I would ask the members of the committee, when reviewing the activities of that company, to bear in mind the necessity to impress upon the board that we should at least be able to provide for our national consumption in that area. Comhlucht Siúicre Éireann is another semi-State body which has been in the news very much in the past. I contend that that company provide a degree of a social service.

An Cathaoirleach

I do not think you are quite in order.

Mr. Durkan

I was referring to paragraph (1) which says that the Committee would review the activities and the trading or commercial aspects of the relevant boards which are mentioned in Schedule A.

An Cathaoirleach

We are referring the examination of these bodies to a joint committee at the moment. We are not actually discussing them.

Mr. Durkan

I accept that, but I assumed that one could suggest in what manner the committee which we are approving could assess the future and perhaps review the past of the various companies listed in Schedule A.

Mrs. Bulbulia

Is it usual to have no Minister present in the House?

An Cathaoirleach

This is a House matter. Senator Durkan can go into more detail when these bodies have been set up.

Mr. Durkan

Will there be an opportunity in this House to discuss them in detail prior to the committee examining the activities of the boards referred to?

An Cathaoirleach

A report will come from the committee and that can be discussed in detail by Senators.

Mr. Durkan

Unfortunately that report will not be before the committee will have reviewed the activities of the boards referred to.

An Cathaoirleach

We are setting up this committee to enable them to review these bodies. We are not going into details now.

Mr. Crowley

Surely it is an order for the Senator to refer to the guidelines for the Members who become members of this committee so that any Member here present would have a say in the type of questioning to be adopted in regard to the performance of the semi-State bodies? If he or she does not get the opportunity at this stage, at what stage do they get the opportunity?

An Cathaoirleach

The motion sets out the terms of reference.

Mr. Durkan

Since the concurrence of this House is required in relation to the setting up of the committee I feel, as the previous speaker has suggested, that if we do not at this stage have some input as to how the committee goes about its job it will be too late for us to have any realistic input at a later stage. I do not propose to delay the business of the House but I think, as already said, that it is relevant.

I was speaking in relation to Cómhlucht Siúicre Éireann, which firm has been in the news quite recently. It is also an area where careful account will have to be taken of the social element of the firm concerned in that the part of the country that gets most benefit from the activities of the firm. It can be argued that it provides a valuable social service. An assessment purely on an economic or accountancy basis would not to my mind be fair in all cases in relation to Cómhlucht Siúicre Éireann.

The other company is the Industrial Credit Company. I specifically ask that the members of the committee take very careful account of the activities of this company with particular reference to ensuring that every possible opportunity to assist investment and industrial growth is taken advantage of because at this time industry generally in the country is somewhat under siege. There is a grave danger that confidence may be shaken in the ability of various companies, and particularly this one, to provide the wherewithal for the country to maintain a reasonable number of jobs in the years ahead. By a reasonable number I mean be able to provide more jobs than we have been losing and hence ensure that young people leaving our schools each year at least have reasonable prospects of a future.

Particular reference should be made, in relation to that company, to the provision of finance for small industries and craft industries. Because of the increasing number of firms who have closed in the recent past it is absolutely vital that we make provision immediately for the return of some of those jobs. Every possible avenue must be explored and every source utilised and the Industrial Credit Company is the company that has the wherewithal to do that. I particularly ask that the committee in examining the activities of that company ensures that no opportunities are lost to increase investment and to provide jobs.

The Irish Gas Board is another company which again relates to energy. In these times of rising costs in the energy area we are very aware of the necessity to ensure that that company functions satisfactorily and the members of the committee, I am sure, will be more than capable of ensuring that.

The Irish Life Assurance Company is another company which I feel must also be examined carefully. One thing that has come to mind and which has oft been repeated to those of us in public life is that assurance companies generally do not have a cash flow problem. That is resolved by way of premiums and so on. They appear to have a surplus of finances which they can invest in many areas. I refer to what I said in relation to the previous company, that it is absolutely essential that whatever surplus finances this company has be channelled in a direction which will bring about as soon as possible a reduction in the number of people unemployed or an increase in the number of people in employment.

An Cathaoirleach

May I interrupt the Senator? The position is that the Seanad is setting up this committee so that it may examine the reports and so on of the bodies named. The committee will then report to us in due course and we can have a thorough discussion. This is not an occasion for a long discussion.

Mr. P. Reynolds

I agree fully with your ruling, but at the same time the Senator is entitled to make comments. Maybe he dealt at too great a length with it but we certainly could not let it go through without having some comments on it. I ask him to conclude as quickly as possible and I ask the Chair to be patient and to wait for his conclusion.

Mr. Durkan

The last company to which I will refer is the Irish National Stud Company and that has particular reference to my own county of Kildare. There have been a number of articles in the press of late wherein it was felt that that firm was suffering from financial strangulation, and those were the words used. I ask that some effort be made to impress upon the members of the board and also on the people who are dealing directly with the Department of Finance to ensure that whenever a plea for finance emanates from that company it will be dealt with expeditiously so that the firm can continue to operate as it should.

Mr. Crowley

I should like to support the views of the previous speaker. This is a very important committee. We are investigating not alone business enterprises but possibly the whole ideology of the involvement of the State bodies in industry. Certainly we cannot underestimate the role that they have played up to now. That does not mean that they should be above criticism or that their management and the schemes in which they have become involved should not be open to the most severe scrutiny of this House. Many of us have first-hand experience of the various State bodies and we should all have an input, to advise from a layman's point of view how best they can serve the people. I do not want to go into detail about any of the particular companies. Generally, we must view very strictly the granting of unlimited funds to the various semi-State enterprises. Regardless of the employment content that is involved we must also look for efficiency and make sure that the taxpayers' money is spent efficiently. The committee should have that as a broad outline.

Professor Murphy

It may surprise Senator Crowley to hear that I agree fully with what he has said. The State-sponsored bodies in this country are in part a reflection of this State. They are a unique feature of the State as it has developed but that is no reason why, as he has said, we should give them their head without a constant, critical appraisal of their activities. I am aware that the composition of joint committees is jealously scrutinised and that the party composition both in the Dáil and Seanad is vigilantly watched. May I suggest that when this committee comes to be constituted that four Members of the Seanad may, perhaps, include one from the Independent section? I know that our numbers do not warrant this but I suggest that our commitment does.

Mr. Mallon

I wish to take this opportunity of congratulating you on your appointment to the position of Cathaoirleach. This is my first opportunity to thank the Members of this House for the welcome which they gave to myself and to my fellow-Senator from the North of Ireland and to put on record the fact that I regard it as a very great honour and, indeed, as more than an honour, as something that will be of value both in our deliberations in the North of Ireland and hopefully in deliberations within this House.

I would also like to thank Senator Durkan for establishing a certain amount of poetic licence in relation to this first item in so far as I would regard it as something which has very important aspects in relation to State bodies as they relate to the North of Ireland. Indeed, it has been very heartening coming from an area of very, very substantial unemployment to see the way in which a certain amount of hope has been given in relation to State bodies in the South of Ireland in their communications with Harland and Wolff and with Mackies. I would ask that in this committee consideration be given to that type of development. I think of Bord na Móna, the aeronautical industry, the heavy industry in the South especially and the way in which it can help economically in integration in this island which must surely be the desire of all of us. I would like to take this opportunity of asking that that be kept very much in mind during the deliberations of this body.

Two other items come to mind. First of all, there is the gas industry which was referred to by Senator Durkan. It seems to me that the relationship in that area between Government here and the North of Ireland is something which would be of enormous benefit not just in terms of the gas which would be supplied, hopefully, to the North of Ireland, but in the social and political effects, because it would be an unspoken indication of the consideration that exists within the southern part of this island for the problems in the North. I would like to see that and, indeed, the transfer of electricity from the North of Ireland proceeding as rapidly as possible. I know that is straining it a little but it comes under the heading of semi-State bodies.

Reference was also made to Irish Life and to development by insurance companies. It is a matter of great pride to see the way in which a company such as this has developed in Holland, the USA and in the Far East. Would it be too much to ask for a city like Belfast, which has been deemed by the EEC, along with Naples, to be an area of special consideration and special deprivation and poverty, that some of that cashflow could find its way into the construction of buildings in Belfast which are very much needed, and also in places such as Derry, Newry and Strabane? It would be psychologically very important if we were to see that type of money flowing into construction in the North of Ireland.

There are two other points to which I would like to refer. We had, as I am sure other Senators have had, communications from the Trades Council in the North of Ireland in relation to free transport for senior citizens from the North of Ireland who travel in the South. That communication was delivered from a Mr. Joe Cooper of the Trades Council in Belfast. Would it not be a nice gesture in practical terms if senior citizens, old age pensioners, people over the age of 65 from the North of Ireland, were able to avail of the free transport which exists within the South of Ireland? I think it would be a very positive gesture. It is something which would be much appreciated and indeed it would be the type of thing that we should be looking at in these committees to see how in those practical ways we can blur the edges of the divisions that exist within this country.

Finally, I see Aer Lingus is one of the semi-State companies listed here. I find it rather strange when I come to Dublin Airport to see an Irish company advertising flights to Londonderry. I wonder would it be too much if that Irish company would fly their aeroplanes to Derry?

Mr. McDonald

As a Member who is indeed very deeply committed to the committee system in the administration and the carrying out of our work in the Houses of the Oireachtas, I warmly welcome the reconstituting of this joint committee. I regret that we do not have the Minister present but perhaps the Leader of the House who moved the motion may be able to answer a few questions.

There is no doubt in my mind that this joint committee is one of the more important organs of the Oireachtas. It is something which should have been more fully developed in years past. I am surprised and a little disappointed that only one-fifth or one-sixth of the total number of State-sponsored bodies are included in the first and second schedules to this motion. I think that all of these State-sponsored bodies should be subject to the critical eye of the members of the joint committee of these Houses. I believe that the Houses of the Oireachtas should have not only access to and an opportunity to discuss the annual reports of all our semi-State bodies but should also have the opportunity of reviewing their policy and their development. One must remember that the State has tremendous control over such a great percentage of the economic activity of the State and that is the reason I think there should be more public accountability. I do not doubt that the Comptroller and Auditor General and the Oireachtas are doing an excellent job, but nevertheless I think there should be public scrutiny of the affairs of these public bodies who were founded by Acts of the Oireachtas and set up with the taxpayers' money.

I hope that it will be possible for the appropriate Minister to add significantly to the schedule of the motion to include all the companies. I do not suggest that it would be possible for the joint committee to have an in-depth review of the work of all the companies in the one quarter or the one-half year but nevertheless it is a job that should be done because we must get development going. We must be able to see, in advance as it were, where these developments need extra input or extra capitalisation. It was too bad, as happened in the past couple of years, when a few of our larger State companies found that their machinery was almost obsolete and that they needed huge cash inputs which were almost outside the resources of the State. If there was an on-going review Ministers for Finance might be encouraged by the joint committee to re-finance some of these bodies before the problem becomes too acute.

The last speaker made a point about the possibility of extending the free transport schemes to senior citizens from the northern counties. I recall that the former Minister, Deputy Kelly, had such a proposal but I cannot recall if it was implemented. It was an excellent idea.

Mr. Robb

I should like to take the opportunity to endorse what Senator Mallon has said. Having regard at this time to the social conditions of Northern Ireland as well as the rest of this island, all semi-State bodies should be encouraged to have a sub-committee or have a special interest to see how it would be possible to liaise with what is going on in Northern Ireland and to see how they and similar bodies in Northern Ireland might gain from each other. I will take my own profession as one example. If the house officers of this country — the newly qualified graduates who are responsible to the Department of Health in the North and to Comhairle na nOspidéal in the Republic — had an exchange scheme much could be done to break many of the shibboleths we have suffered from for so long. These house officers meet about 5,000 people during the year when they serve their hospitals and about 20,000 people indirectly.

There is a great need in Ireland to consider what we are going to do with the time that will become available as employment in the traditional sense becomes less and less. I ask the committee to consider, much more imaginatively, ideas that the semi-State bodies might explore with a view to involving not only the operatives and the institutions but also the consumer. We need to re-think industrially in terms not so much of decentralisation, which is giving from the centre as little as possible to keep the natives happy on the periphery, but in terms of autonomy, giving back to the communities much greater say in how they will order their affairs so that they in turn can put pressure on semi-State bodies to meet needs defined by the people rather than to have those needs dictated centrally.

Thirdly, I would like to endorse what has already been said about the old age pensioners and Mr. Joe Cooper of the Trades Council in Belfast who has appealed that this consideration should be given. There is a need to co-ordinate what is happening in both parts of the country. There is a need to consider the question of how decisions are taken. There is a need to involve the consumer as well as the operative and the institutions. I hope that the joint committee will introduce some new thinking in all these areas.

Mrs. Barnes

I shall be very brief because many of the points I wished to make have been made by other speakers. Consideration should be given to the changes new technology will bring about and to the work structures that should change to accommodate such developments. For instance, State and semi-State bodies should be the first to offer us models with regard to flexi-time, perhaps even — I know I am entering into a very muddy pool — work-sharing. This whole area has to open up and I expect the State and semi-State bodies to set an example.

I hope it will come within the terms of reference of this committee that they look, for instance, at the membership of the boards of State and semi-State bodies. It is quite appalling in 1982, despite ten years of working towards equality and even having equality legislation, that it is not reflected at all in the membership of such boards. The contributions of women in particular areas are not reflected on such bodies. I see it as a total deprivation and impoverishment of the whole State and semi-State system and some of the unfortunate results of that can be seen by perhaps not having a more balanced contribution. I would also like to endorse what Senator Robb said, that not alone should there be equal representation of males and females but also the point he made regarding rural and urban representation. I hope this will be taken into consideration by the committee.

Dr. West

I wish to make a few comments on this motion and on the importance of the committee which is described therein. I have spoken on this before. I believe that our State-sponsored bodies deserve our fullest attention in a benevolent sense. The work that the committee have done over the past years under Senator Ryan has been extremely important. It was done in a constructive spirit and it is very important that it should be continued.

As I said before, I hope that when the committee are set up there will be Independent representation on the committee. There are among the Independent Members people who could give their time and would put a great deal of work into such a committee. A great deal of work is needed if the Committee are to function properly. To paraphrase Senator Robb in one of his many erudite pieces to the press, economic development is too important to be left to the economists. Having regard to the role that State-sponsored bodies play in our whole life it is important these bodies should be examined from every angle. Ultimately the politicians have to make decisions which will affect the organisation and the running of these bodies. This is a very important committee. I hope Senator Ryan will see his way to giving the Independents representation on this committee when they are set up. I fully support the motion.

Mr. E. Ryan

I will deal with a few points that were raised. I must accept responsibility for the fact that there was not a Minister present. The Minister concerned asked me if it was necessary to be present and I took the view that it was not necessary, but perhaps I was wrong in that. What is before the House is simply whether the House considers that this joint committee should be set up. I took the view that that was entirely a matter for the Members of the House and that the Minister had no particular function to play. If I was wrong in that, I apologise.

Senator McDonald regretted that there were not more State-sponsored bodies on the list. On the last occasion, and on this occasion, it is confined to State-sponsored bodies engaged in trading or commercial activities, and that is a definition. All bodies which are engaged in trading or commercial activities are included in the list. That is what distinguishes them from those who are not on the list.

I have no doubt that a case could be made for examining other State-sponsored bodies as well. But if we are to do this it should be done by a separate committee because I do not think any committee could possibly examine all the State-sponsored bodies even if the House were to last for a full five years. On the last occasion we managed to examine 20 out of the 25 bodies. That was a very hard-working joint committee. It was not possible to get to the end even of the 25 who are on the list. There are something like 100 State-sponsored bodies altogether. So there is no possibility of one joint committee dealing with all of them. That is one good reason for confining the work of a joint committee to the ones which are on the list.

In that respect I would like to say that it is a small committee and one reason why we got through so much work was that it was a small committee. On the other hand, it meant that there was no possiblity at all of the work being done unless the members were very committed and turned up at practically every meeting. I would urge the various groups when they are putting forward members for this joint committee to put forward people who will be prepared to work very hard and to attend virtually every meeting because otherwise the joint committee just cannot carry on.

With regard to the points made by Senators Mallon and Robb about the joint committee having regard to possible liaison and so on with the North, certainly the last committee had regard to this, perhaps not in respect of every State-sponsored body but certainly in respect of any State-sponsored body which appeared to have any possibility of liaison with the North. That was dealt with on many occasions and I have no doubt that the incoming joint committee will also approach the work of the State-sponsored bodies from that point of view as well as the point of view of this part of the country.

Question put and agreed to.