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Seanad Éireann debate -
Wednesday, 23 Jun 1982

Vol. 98 No. 5

Companies (Amendment) Bill, 1982: Second Stage.

Question proposed: "That the Bill be now read a Second Time".

This Bill will amend and extend the Companies Acts, 1963 to 1982, to give effect to the EEC Second Directive on company law and certain related matters. That directive is concerned with the formation of public limited companies and the maintenance and alteration of their capital.

It will be recalled that, very recently, the Oireachtas passed the Companies (Amendment) Act, 1982 which was a short measure to improve the facilities and information available to the business community at the Companies Registration Office, to make certain minor revisions and to update the fines and some other figures in the Companies Act, 1963, which is the basic statute governing the operation of different classes of companies in Ireland. At that time, I described that short Act as the first step in a considerable programme of company law reform. The Bill before us today is the second stage in that programme and makes considerable amendments to the 1963 Act.

Before the short 1982 Act, there were only two small amendments to the 1963 Act. One of these was in 1973, by way of regulations, to give effect to the EEC First Directive which was concerned with the publication of documents and certain other information about various classes of companies. The other was the Companies (Amendment) Act, 1977, which was concerned with the transfer of title to securities on the stock exchange.

Before moving on to some details of the Bill in hand, it would be appropriate, by way of information, to say something about the EEC approach on company law matters. Though it is not an area of great popular appeal or political interest, it is one in which there has been a very large number of EEC initiatives. Seven directives have already been adopted and, consequently, require translation into Irish law. There are various other proposals at different stages of development in the EEC negotiating process and the study, discussion and servicing of meetings in Brussels in relation to these proposals puts considerable demands on the resources of my Department. The European Community approach has been one which seeks harmonisation in relation to different aspects of company law and sets out principles about those aspects to be included in its laws, by each member state, in an appropriate form. It is this approach that brings about the numerous different measures.

Some Senators will be aware that the EEC Commission has brought Ireland before the European Court of Justice for failure to implement the second directive by the appointed date, December, 1978. One reason for that failure has been a shortage of suitable staff resources but there are other significant considerations. It is no accident that five other member states were brought before the European Court on the same charge. It is only now becoming clear that the requirements of the directive are more complicated than was first realised and call for complex adjustments of legislation. Given the burden of the other EEC company law activities to which I have referred, it has taken much longer to make the necessary changes in legislation than was originally envisaged. Senators will appreciate that the Bill which we as a member state have to produce as a consequence of the directive is not any less complex than that required of the other larger administrations who have also encountered difficulties in meeting the deadline. The case against Ireland and the other member states concerned was heard at the end of April 1982 and those proceedings are not yet concluded. The House will recognise, therefore, that we are dealing with an urgent matter.

I am quite sure that, as regards the other directives which have been adopted by the Community, Senators will be looking for some mention of the Fourth Directive which, of course, is of considerable interest. The Fourth Directive deals with the content and format of company accounts, their presentation and publication, and it embraces both public and private limited companies. Work is proceeding on a Bill to give effect to that Directive, and I propose to introduce that particular measure later this year. In addition, as I have already mentioned in the Oireachtas and elsewhere, I propose to introduce a further Bill which arises from domestic, as opposed to EEC, considerations, and which will aim at removing some of the abuses that can occur in the direction and management of some companies and at bringing about other desirable improvements in company law.

I now wish to turn to the content of the Bill before us, the basic purpose of which, as I have said, is to give effect to the EEC Second Directive. In doing so, I want to draw the House's attention to one very fundamental factor, which is that the principles of the Directive, having come through the administrative process of the EEC and having been adopted some years ago, are not negotiable at this stage. Consequently, most of the provisions in this Bill which implement those principles are not negotiable either. Put quite simply, there are provisions in it which we in this House are not free to dilute or avoid even if we were inclined to do so. I would ask Senators to bear that basic factor in mind when they are examining the different aspects of the Bill.

The objective of the directive and, consequently, of this Bill is the protection of the interests of both shareholders and creditors in relation to the formation of public limited liability companies and the maintenance, increase or reduction of their capital. Obviously, the proper conduct of such companies in relation to those matters is also of considerable benefit to employees. The greater part of the provisions of the directive are given force in Parts II, III and IV of the Bill and the remaining three Parts deal with ancillary matters and companies changing between limited and unlimited status.

Part I contains the usual provisions associated with any Bill concerning title, citation, commencement, interpretation, repeals and savings. As regards interpretation, it will be seen that a "public limited company" answering the requirements of the directive is separately defined in section 2, as is a "public company". I want to make it clear that those definitions do not impinge upon or in any way affect the position of private companies, which will continue to be defined by section 33 of the Companies Act, 1963.

I am drawing the House's special attention to this matter because the Oireachtas Joint Committee on the Secondary Legislation of the European Communities, in a report in 1978, recommended that the definition of a private company as in the 1963 Act should be maintained. It is important to leave that definition stand because the private company so defined has long been the dominant corporate entity for business ventures here. The significance of private companies in the economy is best indicated by the fact that at December 1981 there were about 65,000 private companies and 340 public companies registered at the Companies Registration Office. The measures in the directive apply only to public companies limited by shares and public companies limited by guarantee and having a share capital. As there are only two or three of the latter type of company in existence it is clearly not a very effective business vehicle, so I am taking the opportunity in this Bill to discontinue any further registrations of this particular form of company.

Part II implements the requirements of the directive as to the name and registration procedures for new public limited companies. These are that:

the name of a public limited company should distinguish it from other types of company; the memorandum of such a company must state that it is a public limited company; and

the allotted share capital of a public limited company must not be less than a specified minimum and must be paid up as to, at least, 25 per cent of the nominal value of the shares and all of any premium on them.

I am providing for the designation "public limited company" or "p.l.c." or the Irish equivalent of these so that an incidental, if technical, income as far as public companies are concerned is that the old identification of "and Co. Limited" will be replaced by "p.l.c.". However, private limited companies will continue to use the well recognised "and Co. Ltd.". The Bill provides for an authorised minimum capital of £30,000.

The remainder of Part II sets out the re-registration requirements for companies changing from their existing status to that of a public limited company. As might be expected, the key requirements in those changes which are imposed by the directive are that they observe the rules as regards the name, authorised minimum capital and the payment up of shares. Of particular interest here is that existing public companies limited by shares, or limited by guarantee and having a share capital, are defined as "old public limited companies". These companies, if they wish to retain their present status, must re-register as public limited companies within 15 months of the appointed day and appropriate provisions are specified. Accordingly, it is the 340 existing public companies, to which I have already referred, which will be affected by those provisions, and to the extent that those companies do not have the £30,000 authorised minimum capital they will have three years within which to bring their capital up to that level or, alternatively, to re-register as some other form of company. As they may under existing legislation, private companies will be free to become public companies, but if they wish to re-register as public limited companies in the new form they too will have to comply with the requirements as to name, capital and payment up of shares. There is also provision for a public limited company to change its status in the opposite direction, so to speak, and to re-register as a private company. If it does so it will, of course, have to meet the requirements in the definition of a private company in the 1963 Act. Briefly, a private company must—

Have a share capital,

restrict the right to transfer its shares,

limit the number of members, and

prohibit any invitation to the public to subscribe for shares.

Part III implements the provisions of the Directive relating to the share capital of public limited companies. Requirements are set out as to the issue of and payment for share capital, the maintenance of share capital, the rights of existing shareholders on the occasion of the issue of further shares in the company and the variation and registration of class rights attaching to shares. Part IV deals with distribution of profits. I have already mentioned that the Second Directive only applies to public limited companies. However, many ideas of the directive in relation to the share capital and profits of a company simply reinforce existing practice or have, for some time, been recognised as desirable for the proper conduct of companies generally.

Though there is no obligation to do so, I consider it appropriate, in the interests of the development of company law generally, to apply some of the provisions in Parts III and IV to private companies. In adopting this approach, I am carrying out the wishes of various interested professional bodies which made representations on the subject. In taking this course I have been careful to strike a balance between, on the one hand, the need to develop proper commercial practice which would result in some benefit for members, employees, creditors and the business public generally and, in the other, the necessity to avoid imposing unnecessary and fruitless burdens on private companies which, as I have said, form the backbone of the Irish business scene and provide considerable employment.

I wish to refer specifically to some of the provisions in Part III of the Bill. As required by the directive, the idea of an authorised minimum share capital for public limited companies is introduced and is set at £30,000. This figure is somewhat above the minimum requirements of the directive, but since the underlying principle is that small entities may not seek to become public companies and that such companies should not be allowed to commence business without some semblance of financial viability, it would not be appropriate to fix a lower figure. In any event, I have taken account of representations which have been made on the subject and of the desirability of avoiding frequent amendments to recognise inflation or currency fluctuations. The authorised minimum capital requirement applies to public limited companies only.

There is also a provision, new to Irish law, that directors of a company may not allot shares unless they are authorised to do so by the articles of association or by the company in general meeting. Such an authority must state the maximum amount of shares to be allotted and the duration of the authority given, which may be for a period up to five years but can be revoked, varied or renewed. This kind of control over the issue of shares has been mooted for some time. It should be to the advantage of shareholders in private as well as in public limited companies, in so far as it should prevent directors making an offer to issue shares to some members of the company or even outsiders on terms below market value which would result in the value of the holdings of the remaining members being reduced.

The directive requires that provision be made in relation to pre-emption rights. These are the rights of first refusal when the capital of a company is being increased by a new issue of shares for cash. The provisions in this Bill, which apply to both private and public limited companies, set down the principle that such shares must first be offered to existing shareholders in proportion to the nominal value of shares already held by them. These provisions will have the effect of safeguarding the interests of all shareholders against any allotments which might change control of the company or damage the relative position in the company as represented by their holdings. While the setting out of pre-emption rules is new in our company law, it is not a new idea and it is, in fact, a requirement for those public companies which are quoted on the stock exchange.

Similarly, some of the ideas in Part III in relation to the payment for share capital are not really new. The provisions that shares may not be issued at a discount and must be paid for in money or money's worth represent what is, in practice, the existing position and it is appropriate, therefore, that they be applied to all companies. The directive makes it necessary, however, to introduce a partial restriction on the existing position in that it specifies that an undertaking to perform work or supply services may not from part of the assets paid for the shares of public limited companies. One of the innovations of the directive and, consequently, the Bill, is that, as I have already mentioned, the shares of a public limited company must be paid up as to at least 25 per cent of their nominal value and the whole of any premium on them before they are allotted. At present, the Companies Act, 1963 requires only 5 per cent payment on application.

In relation to shares which are not paid for by cash, the directive introduces another new idea in that it requires the valuation by an independent expert of considerations other than cash paid for shares in a public limited company. A further requirement is that such payment of non-cash assets for shares must be made in full within five years of the allotment. An expert's valuation is also required where a public limited company proposes to acquire non-cash assets from a subscriber to its memorandum and the value of those assets exceeds 10 per cent of the subscribed capital. These provisions of the directive are reflected at sections 29 to 33 of the Bill, and it will be appreciated that they are a serious attempt to get an objective assessment of the proper value of non-cash assets transferred to a public limited company. This is in line with the objective of the directive to preserve the capital of the company and thus provide protection for all those involved with it.

In order to encourage the participation of employees in the capital of companies the directive provides that the payment up before allotment of at least 25 per cent of the nominal value of shares need not apply to shares issued in connection with employee share schemes. The concept of employee share schemes is not, of course, new to our company law code. Section 60 of the Companies Act, 1963 already recognises the special place of such schemes by providing that financial assistance may be given by a company for the acquisition of shares in the company or its holding company to be held by its employees or the employees of a subsidiary company. I understand that a number of Irish companies already operate share purchase or share option schemes for employees.

In Part III under the heading "Maintenance of capital" there are provisions preventing companies from acquiring their own shares either directly or through nominees. We have provisions in section 60 of the 1963 Act which enable a company to provide financial assistance in certain special circumstances for the purchase of its own shares and, while the directive requires us to amend those provisions so that they no longer apply to public limited companies, that section will remain in force for private companies. I would also like to draw the House's special attention to the provision at section 40 of the Bill which requires that, where it becomes known to any director of a company that there is a serious loss of the subscribed capital, an extraordinary general meeting of the shareholders must be held to consider what measures should be taken to deal with the situation. In the present difficult economic circumstances there is a growing number of company failures and it is now widely accepted by persons such as receivers, liquidators and financial bodies closely involved in such matters that most of these failures have a common factor, which is that company directors and managers do not take appropriate action when financial difficulties first appear on the horizon. I think that it is useful to apply this general principle to all companies if only to encourage those concerned to tackle the situation in good time with a view to doing everything possible to prevent the failure of the company and all the attendant adverse consequences, particularly the loss of employment.

Part IV of the Bill implements the requirements of the directive concerning distributions to shareholders including, in particular, the payment of dividends. The general basic principle governing distributions, to be found in section 45, is that distributions may only be made from profits available for that purpose. In this context, "available profits" are defined to mean a company's accumulated realised profits less its accumulated realised losses. The idea that distributions may only be made from profits available for that purpose is already included in the First Schedule to the 1963 Act, but the definition of available profits clarifies a situation that has been in some doubt.

Under this Bill the position will be that a company may not make a distribution until accumulated losses have been made good. These principles represent prudent accounting practice, and the accountancy bodies agree that they should be applied to all companies. The directive imposes a further restriction on public limited companies in that they may only pay dividends where the amount of the net assets is not less than the aggregate of the called up share capital and undistributable reserves and where the payment of the proposed distribution would not have the effect of reducing the net assets below that level.

The remainder of Part IV deals with ancillary matters arising from the basic rules which I have just mentioned. It takes account of the special position of assurance companies and investment companies and specifies the accounts, and regulations concerning them, to which reference must be made before any distribution is contemplated.

Part V provides for companies changing between limited and unlimited status. These provisions do not arise from the directive but since this Bill deals, to some extent, with the question of re-registration of companies, I think that it is appropriate to include them. The Companies Act, 1963, already authorises an unlimited company to re-register as a limited company. There is no provision in that Act, however, to enable a movement in the opposite direction, that is a limited company to re-register as unlimited. I propose making this facility available now in section 52 because various representations requesting it have been made to my Department.

I have mentioned earlier, in relation to Part II, that existing public limited companies must within a given period re-register as the new public limited company, or as an alternative, be re-registered as another form of company. This provision will enable an old public limited company to re-register as an unlimited company if it so desires. A change from limited to unlimited status will require the assent of all the members of the company. Such a change has serious consequences for the members of the company involved in that the assumption of unlimited liability means that the members will be responsible for the debts of the company to the full extent of their personal assets. Where such change takes place the position of creditors and employees is of course enhanced. Therefore it is clear that a change in status from limited to unlimited is not one that will be lightly taken. Section 53 replaces section 20 of the 1963 Act and makes better provision in relation to the protection of the interests of its creditors where an unlimited company re-registers as limited and, subsequently, goes into liquidation.

Finally, Part VI covers matters such as publication requirements, the use of misleading names, penalties and procedures for indictable offences, expenses and order-making arrangements.

From this review of the Bill I am sure that Senators will appreciate that the subject matter is fairly complex. In formulating it, I have had regard to the views of various interested professional groups and I would like, therefore, to take this opportunity to thank them for offering those views.

In conclusion, I need hardly remind Senators that the enactment of this particular Bill is a matter of great urgency. I have referred to the proceedings before the European Court regarding non-implementation of the EEC Second Directive so I am sure that the House will understand my anxiety to get it through the Oireachtas with maximum speed. As the Bill itself is generally dictated by that directive, is largely technical and is, therefore, uncontroversial. I think that I am justified in urging Senators to refrain from pressing for amendments in relation to other general matters not connected with the Second Directive on the clear understanding that I will be introducing further measures for the reform and updating of company law as soon as possible. Given the special circumstances which surround it, I look forward to the House's co-operation in processing this Bill quickly, and recommend it for the approval of this House.

The Minister concluding stated that this is a very complex Bill, and it is. It is a very technical Bill. This side of the House on general terms welcome the Bill and we support it. There are some points of detail in relation to a number of provisions on which we will be seeking information and clarification. We may, in the light of what the Minister will say in reply, seek some further improvements. It may well be unavoidable that we will in certain circumstances seek amendments to this. As the Minister said, the measure largely gives effect to or translates into Irish law the provisions of the Second EEC Directive on company law. By and large that is true except in relation to Part V which relates to the changes of status between different types of companies. The Minister, in the course of his speech, indicated as he did previously that this is what might be described as another instalment of the reform and review of company law in general. While accepting that that is so I want to express my disappointment in some small way about the fact it has not been possible in this Bill to pay more attention to the position in relation to private companies. It is in this field that the greatest difficulties and problems in relation to Irish company law exist and there is general acceptance about the need for reform there.

Section 19 authorises minimum share capital of £30,000 for public limited companies or any other such sum as may be specified by order of the Minister. I wonder if that "other sum specified by order of the Minister" may be lesser, as well as greater, than £30,000. We are establishing this as authorised minimum share capital of a public limited company while at the same time we do not appear to attempt to establish a realistic basic figure of share capital in private companies. I want to express my disappointment at the fact that that and other aspects of company laws relating to private companies have not been incorporated in this measure.

At the same time I want to give credit to the positive aspects of this measure. The Bill will tighten up, and make more effective, company law in relation to public limited companies and it will ensure better protection to shareholders and creditors. However, a further category of people need protection under company law, the employees. There may be some measure of protection for them but if there is it is indirect. It only arises because of the improvements or the centering of the capital structure of companies which in the first instance will be of direct benefit to shareholders and creditors of companies. The measure will make the capital formation of companies more realistic. It contains certain desirable restrictions as far as the dispersal of capital and assets within the company are concerned. It will also make more difficult certain undesirable trends as we witnessed in recent times for unscrupulous individuals to misuse company law to hide or to disperse capital or assets of certain companies. They are the positive aspects of the Bill.

What is desirable and necessary but is absent are the measures that will afford maximum protection to creditors and employees of public limited companies and, more especially, to the employees and creditors of private companies. These, and other areas of company law reform, are in need of urgent review. I accept what the Minister said in his statement that this is part of a continuing process. The Minister dealt with the need to implement the provisions in Irish law of the Second Directive of the EEC and he also referred to the fact that we have found ourselves before the European Court because of our inability to get this legislation on the Statute Book much earlier. I regret that the prime motivation in bringing in these desirable measures for the strengthening and improvement of company law comes from the necessity to conform to the Second Directive of the EEC rather than a recognition that these reforms are necessary and desirable to improve the position in Irish company law in their own right. It is also an indication of how we organise ourselves as a nation that when worthwhile changes are necessary we are motivated because of a need to comply with an EEC directive.

There are many areas of company law in urgent need of reform. On the last occasion we were debating a similar measure the Minister gave an indication that this was a complex job, would take a considerable amount of time and is not easily processed. I accept that. There are daily examples of weaknesses in company law that are being exploited to the advantage of a few and the disadvantage of many. All those weaknesses will not be eliminated in the Bill. I am not attaching blame to the Minister. He is on record here and outside the House as accepting that it is necessary to bring in these reforms, but many people feel that company law can be manipulated resulting in injustices and wrongs being inflicted on many people. More especially I am expressing the reaction of people to the apparent inability or ineptitude of legislators to bring in these necessary reforms quickly.

I welcome the fact that substantial fines are being brought in. They will have the effect of improving a situation that needs to be improved. Section 31 provides for a fine of £5,000 as a penalty for those who supply false or misleading or otherwise deceptive information. The fine may seem substantial but it is necessary and has my support.

I want to briefly refer to section 40 which governs the maintenance of capital within companies. The Minister indicated that he expected that the section as it is will increase substantially the powers required in that area but in my view the section as drafted is a poor reflection of what the Second Directive felt was necessary to cater for the situation.

Acting Chairman

It is now 8 p.m. and it is time to take the matter on the Adjournment.

I understand that there is general agreement that it is desirable to complete the discussion on this Bill. Can this be done by sitting an extra half hour? For this side of the House I can say that contributions will be no longer than five minutes. If we could have an indication of who else intends to speak, perhaps we could agree to sit until 8.30?

Does that mean that the matter on the Adjournment would be taken at 8.30?

To sit until 8.30 would not be adequate as there are a number of speakers putting their names forward. Senator Howard has not finished yet.

Acting Chairman

Could we have an indication of the number of speakers?

I am concluding at this stage.

Acting Chairman

I am a little lost. Are we talking about concluding the debate on the Second State by 8.30 or concluding the Bill?

The Second Stage.

I am happy with that.

Acting Chairman

Will the Minister need an opportunity to reply?

I will be very brief.

I will conclude by saying that in general terms we welcome and support the Bill.

Acting Chairman

Is the House agreed that we conclude the Second Stage debate by 8.30 p.m. and then take the matter on the Adjournment?

Senators

Agreed.

The matter in hand is one on which we all agree. The protection of people in Ireland, of people who invest, is the paramount concern of this Bill. I will not delay the House very long as the Minister said in his introduction it is based on a directive on company law from the EEC. Because of that I will be very brief: there is no point in delaying the proceedings of the House in discussing this Bill. I agree with certain points made by Senator Howard. The £30,000 share capital is very low in terms of modern-day company set-up. That might be increased. In his introduction he did say that company failures have to be looked at very carefully and he was very careful to mention that. A lot of those company failures were brought about because of bad management and because people did not take the initiative in time. In too many cases we hear of companies failing because workers create difficulties for companies. I am glad that the Minister in his introduction did lay the blame for the majority of failures on the management, directors and the direction that companies are taking.

I sincerely hope that the word will go out from this House that it is not always the workers who create failures. The Minister was quite specific in his opening remarks that the majority of company failures come about because management, owners or directors do not recognise where the problems are until the problems have overtaken circumstances. In this particular time we must analyse carefully where difficulties come from in private or public companies. The implications of this Bill are not major in terms of the Irish situation because, as has been said by the Minister, we have 65,000 private companies and only 340 public limited companies. Any investor in a public company of any description should know what he is getting into in the first place. But it is not always possible for an investor in a private company to know whether he is getting the best deal in terms of management or advice.

We will have the Fourth Directive from the EEC before this House in a very short time. It is on the Fourth Directive that we are going to have the biggest problems in company law in Ireland. We must recognise the fact that there is a large number of limited companies in this country which are not giving the information normally required. People are involved in limited companies as workers and they do not know exactly where the share capital of that particular company is. They do not know how much the borrowings are. In particular since the abolition of the stamp for social welfare, they do not know how much is owed on PAYE and PRSI. In Ireland at present the hidden debt to the State and to the workers is enormous in terms of PAYE and PRSI. When companies close down, one of the important factors one reads about is that the major creditors, the PAYE and VAT have not been paid. The bigger the company, the bigger the fiddle. The bigger companies send in a return at the end of each month, at the end of each recording period; they do not send in cheques. The smaller companies send nothing in. They go through the courts and they are charged 18 per cent interest on what is determined by the Department of Finance. The bigger companies send in returns. It is recorded in the Department of Finance that these companies owe a lot of money. They are not fined anything. But when the company goes bankrupt the first and major creditor is the Department of Social Welfare.

I welcome this Bill. I sincerely hope that we do not have to come into this House and have a Bill produced to us which is as a result of a directive from the EEC in the future. We should be able to legislate for ourselves. I know we are quite capable of doing that. I sincerely hope that we do not have to implement a directive from the EEC in this House again. On the Fourth Directive which is on private companies, every Member of the House will have a lot more to say than I have to say this evening. We agree that there is more protection in this Bill for the investors in public companies. We welcome it because of the protection that is afforded.

I welcome the willingness on the part of the Government to implement the provisions of the second EEC directive on company law. The amendment is all the more welcome because it is originating in the Seanad and thereby making the Seanad a more effective House. The debate on constitutional reform in which I took part was one of the finest debates ever heard in either House and it originated in the Seanad.

As the directive only applies to public companies, limited by shares and limited by guarantee, it is considered worthwhile in the interest of company law to apply many of the provisions to private companies. The Bill provides that the registrar will not grant a certificate of registration unless the statutory declaration is completed to the effect that the nominal value of the allotted share capital will not be less than £30,000. As has already been stated, this figure for a public limited company seems very small: when one thinks about the size of the operation and when one compares it with a private company, the figure of £30,000 share capital and base capital before you start the operation is to me very small indeed. When you take the cost of one house as in effect £35,000, you are talking about a big operation starting with a very small capital. So I think that should be looked at. There are reasons for and against; a figure has to be arrived at. I think that the figure of £30,000 is too low. I would suggest however that the provisions be applied to private companies. At present the private limited companies according to the Minister's statistics, are now mounting to 55,000. In the last debate in which I took part I suggested that about 99.5 per cent of all companies in this country are private companies. This is borne out by the figure of 55,000 against 340 public companies. When we look at the capital makeup of these private companies we find that the issued share capital is £100 and in effect the only thing you need is £2 paid up capital. The majority of companies in Ireland have as their base capital the figure of £2.

The law as it stands allows for the formation of these private limited companies to commence trading on such a low base and confers on the directors of these private companies full protection as far as limited liability is concerned. We are agreed, and in fact it has been stated that it is probably on the Fourth Directive that we will talk about the reforming of private limited companies, but the low capital base encourages people to get involved in very risky businesses which they would not necessarily do if they had to have a high capital base. When we talk about the things that are at stake, we talk about the employees and creditors and the innocent people whose lives have been dedicated to these small companies, companies who will take massive risks and who are in effect in most cases made up by a husband and wife. The husband in effect often has under his control up to 15 or 20 companies. It is very simple to form a private limited company. The major cost in effect is just the formation cost.

In the case of the public company, the certificate is sufficient evidence that the company is entitled to do business and exercise borrowing powers. To operate without a certificate is a criminal offence. This would well be applied to private limited companies, making it mandatory to have a base capital, either by guarantee or by issued share capital, in region of £5,000 to £10,000. This would have the effect of ensuring that the directors of limited companies have reasonable assets before they commence to form a limited company. The Act provides that a private company is prohibited from offering shares to the public. If the private company offers shares to the public it loses certain privileges, and one of these privileges is to file accounts. If they offer shares outside the private companies they would then have to file accounts. So, the filing of accounts is mandatory on the public company. The law will have to be changed to compel private limited companies to file accounts.

As I have stated in a previous debate there is no reason why firms should not file their accounts with their annual returns. These accounts are in fact prepared for tax purposes and therefore the amount of added paperwork is not sufficient reason why these accounts should not be submitted to the Companies Office. The disclosure would be of major benefit to employees and to other companies dealing with that organisation. This Bill gives the independent expert power to require information and explanations from officers of public companies, and makes it an offence for anybody to give false or misleading information. The expert or the inspector of inquiry should be appointed by the Minister with full powers to investigate private limited companies and to inquire into the capital activities and performances of such companies. This would give employees and creditors and the general public protection and information on the company's activities.

The Bill provides that when it becomes known to a director of a public company that the net assets of that company have fallen to half or less than half of the called up share capital, an extraordinary general meeting must be called for the purpose of taking effective action. The proposed meeting would enable shareholders and company managers to take early and appropriate action to cope with financial difficulties. This provision should apply to all private limited companies and would act as an early warning system against companies getting into financial difficulties.

The case of limited liability is central to this whole debate. The public company in order to commence trading is subject to very strict rules and regulations. Its base capital has to be financed — we may disagree with the amount, but the figure of £30,000 has to be there. In the case of a private limited company the base capital can be as low as £2. The cover which limited liability gives the individual should be looked at and investigated as a matter of urgency. The public companies are well controlled and they act under strict supervision from the Government. These public companies only account for less than 1 per cent of all companies in Ireland. But the private limited companies which virtually control the whole trade of this country and account for 99.5 per cent of all companies, operate with full protection but with absolutely no control from the Government over their activities.

The public companies are duly bound to file their annual return and their accounts and in this return other companies in which the directors have an interest should be specified and shown. At the moment, the situation is that with public companies, in their annual return, in their accounts they show all the other companies that they are involved in, but as far as the directors of these companies are concerned, these are not shown. I think that the Act should be amended to show the various directors and all of the other companies that they are involved in. We have argued in fact that the same thing should happen with private companies, and a method should be found to look at and investigate all these pyramid type companies where you have mergers and amalgamations——

May I ask, on a point of order, is the Senator speaking about the Fourth Directive or the Second Directive?

Acting Chairman

It would be a matter for the Chair to say if he is order or not. I thought it was something else you had in mind.

The provisions of the Bill before the House contain measures to protect the shareholder first, the creditor second and the employees falling into about third place. The law as it stands, as far as company law is concerned, and as far as the law on public companies is concerned, states that the director is solely responsible to the shareholders. First, we argue that the directors of all public companies should be equally responsible——

On a point of order, could I have a copy of the Senator's speech?

On a point of order, I did not receive a copy of the Senator's statement.

He was not reading it.

Acting Chairman

Senator Lanigan made the point of order correctly this time. He did not do so on the last occasion. Could I say to Senator Conway that I was under the impression that he was reading from extended notes? It has been drawn to my attention that you were reading from a document, which is not the accepted practice. The matter has now been brought to his attention.

Senator Lanigan's contribution was to be very short but in fact it was quite long. I shall wind up by welcoming this Bill. It is a very good Bill for public companies. It should be examined in regard to its application to private companies. Indeed part of the memorandum which I read stated that it should be looked at in connection with private limited companies. I think that should be done. The private limited company law demands reform. The public companies are controlled but private limited companies are not. It will be interesting to see, when the Fourth Directive comes up, the consensus of opinion which we will get for all these measures about accounts. It will be interesting to see if Members on the other side of the House will be willing to allow and to demand that private limited companies file their accounts with their annual returns. That is the whole base and centrepiece of any investigation, information or control which the Minister wishes to get for private companies. It will depend on the lodging of the accounts and their examination at the Companies Office. I am sorry for having taken as much time.

I welcome the Minister here again and I also welcome this Bill. Honesty was certainly the best policy with regard to the Minister in his speech. He is right when he says that some Senators are aware that not alone was it meant to be brought into force in the member states within two years of the directive, which was 13 December, 1976 but some Senators are also aware that Ireland had been taken to the European Court on it.

With regard to the matter of the limited company I hope there will not be such a delay in the case of the next directive not only because we might be brought before the European Court but because of the need for justice particularly to the employees and because of the unlimited and unbridled freedom that private companies now have. We as a society should face up to this and bring in the legislation as soon as possible. I acknowledge the Minister's commitment in that respect.

I want to reiterate what Senator Conway and Senator Lanigan said. It seems incredible that whilst I would question the £30,000 in the context of values today, at least there is a minimum and it is to be welcomed. The minimum share capital of £2 for private companies is outrageous. As has been shown both in the Minister's speech and in the remarks of Senator Conway we know that the major bulk of companies in Ireland are private companies and that the major number of crashes have also been in private companies. It is very urgent that we would question that a huge empire could be built on a risk capital of £2.

Section 40 relates to article 17 of the directive. I welcome the Minister's remarks on this. It does a lot to tighten up the liberties and eliminate abuses which occurred. In reading Article 17 of the EEC Second Directive it is clearly spelled out that at the extraordinary general meeting which must be called when it becomes known by any director of the company that there is a serious loss of — I think — half of the subscribed capital, consideration should be given as to whether the company should be wound up or what other measures should be taken. That is taking a very serious view. When that is translated into our Bill I find it says "for the purpose of considering whether any, and if so, what measures should be taken to deal with the situation". This does not carry the thrust and force of what Article 17 states within the directive.

I think we were all anxious that within our legislation we could have meetings where the obligation would be met, but the thrust and fundamental reason for having such meetings might not be met. I should also like to have it provided that they would not fulfil their obligation by just having only one meeting and making a decision on that. Perhaps it should also be provided that there be a review in three or six months or that the company be called on to have another meeting with a six-month period to review the situation and see if things have improved or otherwise. We know that in many of our companies, even when serious losses appeared and a downward slope was being followed the progress downwards was not stopped. One extraordinary general meeting might not answer the needs of that situation. I hope the Minister understands what I am getting at and that we should perhaps provide for the calling of a second meeting.

In the case of many companies that collapse the directors deny that they had knowledge of the serious financial situation of the company and that they had not considered the position in relation to the provisions of the Companies Act, 1963, relating to fraudulence of trading. Even when a heavy loss begins to occur in a company a certain amount of risk or sheer——

Acting Chairman

Could I remind the Senator that we agreed that the House would conclude the Second Stage by 8.30 p.m. and that the Minister would speak before that time?

I accept that, and I was relieved to hear Senator West tell us — am I correct in that? — that he would not start until 9 p.m. I thought I had a few minutes over. Am I right?

Acting Chairman

No, the agreement, as I remember it, was that Second Stage would be concluded by 8.30 p.m. and the Minister indicated that he wanted to speak for a couple of minutes. I am bound by what we agreed.

On a point of information, there is a hiatus because the succeeding Minister will not be able to come in until 8.45 p.m. He has to attend a division in the Dáil and I have agreed with him to wait until he returns.

Acting Chairman

With due respect, it is not a matter for agreement between Senator West and the Minister; it is a matter for this House. If the bell goes for a vote, the normal practice is that we adjourn and we expect the Minister to return after the vote, which usually takes about 15 minutes. I propose to go ahead as agreed and if the bell goes I will ask for an adjournment.

How much time do I have at this stage?

Acting Chairman

The Senator has finished.

The Senator has had more than I have.

I accept the ruling of the Chair, and anything else I wish to say I hope I will get the opportunity to say on Committee Stage.

Acting Chairman

I will give the Minister one minute.

The best I could do would be to deal on Committee Stage next week with the various points raised. The question of the minimum capital for private companies was raised by several Senators. Obviously it is a matter of some interest. We gave it some thought but I decided against putting it into this Bill because the Bill deals primarily and almost exclusively with public companies. It is not easy to fix on any figure because there are many private companies which are trading very satisfactorily with little or no capital. Capital is only one of the elements that goes towards the creation of a business success. That is a matter which might perhaps be developed further at the next Stage but it is worth bearing in mind that the Second Directive lays down a formula which, in our case, would have resulted in a minimum figure of £16,000 for the authorised capital of a public company and in fact I chose to almost double that figure to £30,000. The House may have noticed that there is power for the Minister to increase the figure further by order under section 19 if that is considered appropriate. I would envisage that in some years an order would be made increasing it somewhat above the £30,000 figure.

I thank the House for their welcome for the Bill. If Second Stage is passed tonight I would hope that we would get the remaining Stages next week so that the Bill might be put through the Dáil and we would be in a position to concentrate on two Bills which I hope to produce in the autumn. One of these is on the Fourth Directive and the other on domestic issues relating mainly to the abuse of limited liability which we discussed on the previous Bill before the House.

Question put and agreed to.
Committee Stage ordered for Wednesday, 30 June 1982.
Sitting suspended at 8.30 p.m. and resumed at 9.17 p.m.
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