Seanad Éireann debate -
Wednesday, 14 Jul 1982

Vol. 98 No. 10

National Heritage Bill, 1982: Second Stage (Resumed).

Question again proposed: "That the Bill be now read a Second Time."

Dr. West

I was talking about the problems that have already been created not far from here by a semi-Státe body in terms of destruction of our heritage, to illustrate the fact that one cannot leave things entirely to administrators. What is most important in terms of preservation of our national heritage is national awareness and that means awareness by the population as a whole. It is the only protection we have. The illustration I gave was the destruction wrought by the ESB on a large section of Fitzwilliam Street, that marvellous vista of Georgian buildings, ruined now by a red monstrosity. There were great protestations at the time but it came to nothing in face of the intransigence of that organisation.

It is important if we are to pass this Bill that the situation should be seen to be better than it is at present. It is no use passing a Bill which is going to hold things up rather than to speed them on. By this I mean the whole awareness of our national heritage and in that respect the educational role which this council will play is probably the most important thing they will have to do.

One has only got to look at the cross-Border situation. This morning we talked about selling our natural gas to Northern Ireland. As far as this Bill is concerned, we could learn a great deal from the example that the North has set us. There a Prime Minister, now Lord O'Neill, took a great interest in Ulster history. He comes from a very historic Irish and Ulster family and to a large extent he was responsible for the foundation of the Ulster Folk Museum in Cultra which is one of the finest examples of such an institution in the world. It is a great tribute to the Northern people not only in terms of the actual location and the physical rebuilding of houses coming from the various periods of Ulster history but in the research facilities, the library facilities and the general attitude of making history available to the widest possible public. We should look at what Northern Ireland has done and we should copy such examples. We should see how we can benefit from the Ulster experience and the Ulster expertise.

Another example not State funded — in fact, privately funded — is the Mellon homestead near Omagh in County Tyrone. There again, it is an absolutely marvellous example of what can be done. One has the old Mellon cottage from where the family sprang and then examples of the houses in Pennsylvania where they first settled. The contrast is very marked and a visit to the Mellon homestead and indeed to the Ulster Folk Museum is most inspiring.

One of the things I am disappointed about in this Bill is something that Senator Mallon mentioned this morning. We say this is a National Heritage Bill but no mention is made of statutory contacts with the corresponding body in the North. As far as I recall, no mention of this was made in the Minister's Second Stage speech. The North might as well not have existed. Now that is a shortsighted view because in this area we have a great deal to learn. Our Northern friends are well ahead of us in the preservation and presentation of their heritage and we should be talking to them and learning from them. I would like to see something in the shape of a provision for a very definite link between the council we intend to set up and the corresponding body in Ulster.

One other item of which I have some experience is the interest in local history which is springing up in all parts of the country. Here, again, in Northern Ireland the structures have been set up. The local history associations have been in operation now for a number of years and many of them are producing their own journals. They have a whole programme of lectures, film shows and local history studies. Every aspect of local history in Northern Ireland is being examined and that is something which is to be commended. Here there is a similar interest but the same structures have not emerged. We have a great deal to learn from our friends in the North in the way they have encouraged local history societies by giving some central encouragement but by allowing and encouraging self-reliance in local areas. It is really remarkable what has been achieved and we have a great deal to learn.

I would like the Minister in his reply to make it absolutely clear that the council which we are about to establish in this Bill are going to prove a real and definite benefit. We face a situation in which Government expenditure is going to be cut back severely over the next decade or so. The Department of the Public Service have as their job the overseeing of the staffing and the finance of personnel in the public service. They will be at the forefront of the cutting and the chopping that will go on. One wonders if they will not see this National Heritage Council and the various expenditures which they will undertake as an area which is more expendable than most others.

I really worry that the structure we are describing will not help but may even hinder the developments which we all wish to see and which everybody who has spoken in the debate so far wishes to encourage. One wonders in a situation such as the Wood Quay situation what the reaction of a council would be, because in Wood Quay it was not very long before politics entered the situation. We had a debate in this House in which a motion to preserve Wood Quay was defeated by only one vote. That gave a pretty good indication of the division in the country over the issue of Wood Quay. There was a tremendous amount of concern that the buildings which are now appearing just below Christ Church Cathedral — which are going to have the effect of blotting out that cathedral from human view from the north side of the city — would cover a vital part of our Viking heritage which was irrecoverable once those buildings were put up. There was a great deal of public disquiet right across the board. The issue, because Dublin Corporation were involved, became political, and there still is a good deal of debate as to whether the essentials have been preserved as Dublin Corporation would claim. So, whether one likes it or not, politics is bound to come into this, and we hope that the council, when it is set up, will be sufficiently independent to take a stand on these important issues.

Two of the functions which the council will have to undertake are the overseeing of the National Museum and the overseeing of our parks. There is a contrast between the two because great progress has been made particularly in recent times in our national parks. The people who run the national parks service are to be commended on the improvements they have made in the existing parks and the developing of new ones. They have greatly added to our countryside and to our towns and they have done a magnificent job.

The National Museum is a remarkable institution. It is one of the most remarkable of such museums in any part of the world with its heritage of gold and stone. It is a marvellous panoply of Irish history. Many people who come from outside are astounded by the idea that a highly developed civilisation existed in this country prior to the 10th century. It is quite new to them. It is certainly new to most of my friends in the United Kingdom and they get a shock when I show them the National Museum. It is not so new to our friends in Europe, because the Irish missionary tradition of the 13th and 14th centuries still has an impact and that impact remains.

The National Museum has suffered for a considerable period from great disabilities in terms of staff, rooms for display and the primary facilities a museum needs. These have been in very short supply. We have the parks, where the situation is very encouraging and the National Museum where things are not encouraging at all. We have fallen very much behind in our efforts just to maintain a reasonable standard. I wonder if the council will have the teeth, the finance and the muscle to make the necessary improvements to the National Museum which we know are long overdue? On a number of times they have been discussed in this House. There have been a couple of Adjournment motions in my time here, crying out for more money and more space for the National Museum. I hope the council will be able to deal with this very serious problem.

Another item which was referred to in an Adjournment discussion in this House not so long ago was the state of our national geological collection which, when the Department of Agriculture and Technical Instruction were here at the turn of the century, was stored in this House. Parts of it are stored in Daingean, and when the question was raised some years ago the Minister admitted that our national geological collection was stored in such a way that it was not available to the public. That was at a time when there was the great expansion in the oil industry and when our scientists were putting great emphasis on the newly discovered mineral wealth which Senator Crowley referred to this morning. I learned the same geography as he did: I learned that there was not any mineral wealth in this country when I went to school in the fifties. Now that has been proved to be totally wrong. As an added help to our scientists, our geologists, our science teachers in the schools, we should have our national geological collection on proper display. Some improvements have been brought about since that Adjournment debate a few years ago but I am certain that not everything has been done that could have been done in terms of display. Is this council going to have the finance, the expertise and the muscle to be able to deal with problems such as this?

I would like to mention one other item which I have felt very sore about and where something has got to be done very soon or an important part of our heritage will disappear off the face of the map totally. Here, again, there is a contrast with what has happened in Northern Ireland. I refer to pub interiors. Fifty years ago Dublin possessed a collection of varied pubs whose interiors in wood and stained glass dating from the Victorian period, were a joy and a delight. Over the years, as the pub trade increased in commercial value, the majority of these houses were bought by developers. The old stained glass and the wood have been stripped and have been replaced by chrome and by mock leather. These famous old pubs have been turned into drinking emporia by philistines of the worst type. Only a week ago we saw two famous Dublin pubs on the market. Probably the best interior in Dublin is in Ryan's pub in Parkgate Street, absolutely marvellously maintained by the Ryan family, with the barrels and the brasses all polished up. It is a joy to go in there. Whether one takes a drink or not one cannot help being affected by such an interior.

Another pub which has just come on the market is Bowes in Fleet Street where there are some of the old snugs which were a feature of all these establishments and which have now become rare. Individuals have protested at what has been going on but there has been no concerted attempt to declare the famous interiors of these houses to be a part of our heritage which must not be ruined. They have just suffered a purely commercial fate and in most cases they have been wrecked.

In Northern Ireland just opposite what used to be the old GNR station in Great Victoria Street, now beside that monstrosity, the Europa Hotel, there are two of the finest pubs in this country. One is the Crown and the other is Robinson's. When the Europa was bombed by that organisation to which I referred this morning, which does everything in the name of Irish unity, the Crown bar with marvellous stained glass from the Victorian period was, to a great extent wrecked. The stained glass was broken almost beyond repair and the fate of the pub hung in the balance. Some enterprising Ulster people got together and they persuaded the National Heritage Trust, or whatever the corresponding body is in Britain, I am not quite clear on its title, that this interior was unique, that it should be preserved, that the stained glass should be replaced and that the brass should be polished. This has happened. It has been taken over, with some help from one of the big breweries, by the National Trust and it has been entirely refurbished as it was originally. The wood has been replaced by wood stained in the same way, the snugs have been rebuilt, the stained glass has all been done again. I do not know how they did it but they have done it all again in an absolutely marvellous way. It has been done by the corresponding body in Ulster to the body we are talking about setting up here. That is an example of the awareness in Ulster of their part of the Irish heritage. I regret to say that few enough of our proprietors or their clients in the pub trade in Dublin have shown similar awareness. I hope the Minister in his reply will say something about these interiors which are in great danger of disappearing totally in this part of the country.

I have reservations about the Bill. I think that the general spirit is correct but I wonder whether the mechanics will work as we hope they will. In particular, I would like to see section 7 strengthened. A number of previous speakers have said that section 7, which is the section which deals with the preservation, restoration, repair, upkeep and improvement of heritage buildings, is too strong. If a State authority intend to disturb, demolish or destroy one of these heritage buildings they have to indicate in writing to the council that they intend to do so and they have "to receive and take into account the advice of the council in relation thereto." My feeling is that that is no good. They have to receive, take into account and act on the advice of the council. I intend putting down amendments to strengthen the functions of the council in this respect so that State or other bodies just will not receive advice but will act on it. I want to give the council some teeth in this matter because as the section stands there is no reason whatever for the State authority to act on the advice of the council in terms of preservation, maintenance and so on. That needs to be strengthened and I would like, when the appropriate time comes, to put down amendments to strengthen that section. There are other amendments to this complicated Bill which will be essential and I hope if this Bill is sufficiently amended it will make a real contribution to the preservation of the essential parts of our heritage.

Mrs. Hannon

I would like to take the opportunity to welcome the Minister to the House and to say how happy we are to have him with us. We are all aware of our heritage but most of us have a differing opinion of the contents of that heritage or of the dangers threatening it. There is no exact account of how many national monuments we have but one suggestion is in the region of 150,000, which is a very big number indeed. The State has approximately 1,200 monuments either in ownership or guardianship, about 350 more have preservation orders and another 1,000 or so are listed. As listing only gives limited protection, the number of monuments constructed before 1700 AD and adequately protected are very small indeed when one compares them to a country like Denmark, which is half the size of Ireland, but which has 25,000 prehistoric monuments fully protected.

I am very fortunate to live in a very historic county like Meath. There is a wealth of history in that county. We have Newgrange on which a magnificent job has been done and I am delighted to see people from every part of the country coming to visit Newgrange. We also have Trim which is steeped in tradition and has a wonderful castle. Again, a wonderful book has been compiled and one can walk around Trim and spend a whole day there seeing all the ruins.

I hope that this is the sort of thing that this council will encourage in every part of the country. Again, in Trim we have an education centre and a museum. It gives the opportunity to the people of rural Ireland to take advantage of the facilities that are available to their urban counterparts to see some of the exhibits from our National Museum.

All our monuments are a priceless legacy, yet many of them are being threatened by senseless destruction. As a result of minimal involvement by the State, up to 70 per cent of national monuments in some areas have been destroyed or severely damaged over the past 150 years. This has accelerated enormously in modern times and since 1950 the destruction has been relentless. This is why I welcome this Bill which will cater for archaeological matters and other aspects of our national heritage. It will assume responsibility for the functions exercised by the Departments of Transport and Education, the National Museum and the Commissioners of Public Works. In addition to archaeology, museum development, historic monuments, national parks, heritage houses and gardens and inland cruiseways, the council will have wide ranging powers and will be in a position to give expert advice to public bodies. I feel that as a result of this our heritage will be much more secure under the auspices of the council.

I know that the members of the council will endeavour to see that the mistakes that have been made in the past will not be repeated in the future. The council will also ensure that our heritage will be explained and exhibited in the manner befitting it. Last year Bord Fáilte took the iniative in publishing a new tourist guide which covers houses, castles and gardens and gives a brief description of each of them. I feel this is something that should not be just for our tourists but should be something for every one of us to buy and be able to enjoy and so be aware of our heritage. I was delighted to see the Department of Fisheries and Forestry mentioned as the Department which will be consulted by the council, because they are doing a very fine job. The Forest and Wildlife Service is responsible for State forest development and management and the encouragement of private forestry. It also has responsibility for wildlife conservation and games development.

Senator West spoke of the growing popularity of national parks, and I feel the people concerned are to be congratulated on this. More and more people are enjoying the pleasures of the parks each year. In An Grianán, the educational centre for the Irish Countrywomen's Association, we are setting up a museum at present. We made approaches to the National Museum and they were very receptive of our idea and have promised to give us some exhibits both on a permanent basis and on loan. It is a step in the right direction to move these objects out of Dublin and give the people of rural Ireland the opportunity to see them and enjoy them. Up to now a number of specialist organisations like An Taisce and the Housing Trust have done trojan work. They have provided a vital service in cushioning the impact of industrialisation and urbanisation. The new council can continue this fine work with vision and initiative. A new beginning is needed to ensure that our archaeological inheritance is preserved for posterity and I feel this Bill is a move in the right direction. I welcome it and hope that it will soon be passed.

Mr. McDonald

I, too, welcome the Bill and I would like at the outset to pay a tribute to the Bord of Works, the National Museum and to the excellent work of the National Monuments Commission over the years. The Board of Works as an institution more often than not come in for criticism or are accused of being too slow, but at least in the case of what they tackle with the limited resources they have they demonstrate that they are expert and leave nobody in any doubt about that. One needs only to look at the work they have undertaken in the Midlands — Kilkenny Castle, the abbey in Graiguenamanagh and Holy-cross. These are tremendous works of conservation and preservation and maintenance.

Senator Lanigan dealt at length with Kilkenny city, and I do not want to follow him down the same road. Deputy Gibbons, when he was Parliamentary Secretary to the Minister for Finance in charge of the Board of Works, some years ago set the ball rolling in that respect. Since that time there has been new thinking in the board which has enabled it to do a lot even though I still believe that greater resources must be made available and I hope that the council as envisaged in this new Bill will be given the facilities and the finance to tackle the job as it should be tackled, because we need to have greater conservation and preservation, apart from maintenance. The Board of Works are tremendous. They have a role to play in maintenance. Seir Ciaran in Offaly which is a very ancient Christian site is difficult to get into; certainly that was so last year with nettles, docks, weeds and thistles. When I reminded the Board of Works of its existence they took action and they carried out a small improvement.

In these difficult times of high unemployment I would hope that the council, who must start off conscious of their role in maintenance, would tackle the job of maintaining the sites free of weeds, thistles and nettles so that people can get access to them. In summer time children with bare legs will suffer unless the nettles are removed. Would it be possible for this new council to look at the relief type schemes that local authorities operated up to the sixties when in the autumn months before Christmas they were able to engage people to do maintenance work and give them a few shillings for Christmas? In the summer months that kind of operation might be tackled if not by the Board of Works then by this new council so that historic sites will at least be maintained and would be accessible to the public. In every county there are many sights of historic interest. I am sure the authorities know where they are but much work needs to be done. The public need to have access to sites so as to appreciate their worth. We have a lot to learn from our history and it must be kept before the coming generations.

In my own county of Laois we have the Rock of Dunamase which has a recorded history which is at least a couple of thousand years old. During the period when I had the honour of serving as Vice-President of the European Commission for Cultural Affairs, I had the opportunity of visiting practically all the major museums in Europe, but on one such visit to Greece I saw a map there which showed Hibernia in a rather square form. It was almost 2,000 years old and Dunamase was one of the three places marked on that map. I believe it has a very glorious history. It was burned down. I am sure it would be an interesting place for a dig, but to date the Board of Works have not been able to acquire it or have not been sufficiently interested in taking it over despite the fact that to restore both the east gate and the west gate would not be a tremendous job. You had that as a seat of power in the 16th century where the one clan kept Essex and his men at bay for almost half a century. Apart from the fact that it is in a very beautiful setting in the midlands I think the Board of Works have been playing around with it long enough. I hope the Minister will take out the file and see if it can be signed over into the care of the State without further and undue delay. I do not think there is any problem with purchase. It is only a matter of tying up the legal ends.

My experience over a long number of years with local and public authorities is that they do not want to maintain an old building or, if they think it is getting in the way of traffic, they diagnose that it has dry rot or woodworm or some other malady and it must be got rid of as a nuisance. Many old Georgian buildings have met that fate over the years. I remember the courthouse in Mountrath, which, I suppose, has not very happy historical memories. Nevertheless, it was of some architectural value. There was a tremendous effort to get rid of it and eventually it was replaced by a not very nice looking circular rose bed with three or four different public notices stuck up in the middle of it. I think that when these buildings are removed they take with them part of the character of the towns and the streets in which they stood.

The approach of public authorities and even of the Department of Finance to heritage buildings in the past has been peculiar. I will take a fairly recent example, Malahide Castle. It was handed over to the State. I think it was passed on as a going concern, as a property in which the benefactor had resided up to his or her death. The will was no sooner read than the Minister sold it — not the Castle itself but he had a clearance sale to raise a few million pounds out of it. He just disposed of or distributed a priceless collection which it took the family several hundred years to collect in artefacts, furniture and works of art. That is said, because especially in a capital city such as Dublin, people need places to go with their families, whether it is on a half-day or an evening, and people like to see things of beauty or art such as that. The State must surely see a need to conserve, not only from a historical point of view, but people must, I think, always be reminded of the past, even if it does not always make us happy. It is good to see how the country and the people evolved. For that reason the State should be a little more culturally minded.

The Minister for Finance on the Finance Bill this morning kept on reminding us that the country is in a dire recession and perhaps this is not the best climate in which to talk about spending money on conservation and on maintenance of ancient or historic monuments, but I think the State and public bodies must give a lead in their attitude to maintenance and to conservation. Some years ago before CIE, a Dublin bus company operated public transport between Dublin and Limerick. Between the towns of Portlaoise and Mountrath there was an ancient Abbey of Cloneanna which had there Saint Fintan's tree. I think Saint Fintan was an 8th century saint. He had trouble with his landlord at the time and he took away the well, and the well sprang up in a tree several feet high. But the bicycles on top of the old bus company's bus were constantly being swept off the top by the branches of this tree and so the managing director of the Dublin Omnibus Company wrote to the county council at the time to have the tree removed. The county surveyor went out to the ganger and the ganger said he would not touch it. The council could not get anyone to cut down the tree. I do not know whether it was because it was a holy well that was on top of the tree or whether they were afraid of the fairies, but nobody would touch it. It is quite a different situation now with the bulldozer, which does not fear God or man or fairies.

On record in the council is a copy of a letter the county surveyor wrote to the Dublin bus company telling them that if they wanted to cut the tree they could come down and cut it themselves. It is less than 20 years ago since the council conserved the tree and routed the road, at some public expense, around that particular ancient monument which is a holy well which sprang up in this tree several hundred years ago. I mention that point to illustrate here again the situation where it was possible to have a public authority even consider that kind of vandalism. I think we must get conservation orders on everything that is worth conserving. There are many fine old trees. Developers move in very fast with bulldozers, given half a chance. I would like to see in this Bill real penalties, not just fines of £200 or £300. The penalty for somebody who for gain would destroy an ancient monument should be ten or 20 times the value of the actual site as a commercial site. It should be prohibitive in the case of anyone who would perhaps ruin an ancient monument, whether so designated or not, for personal gain. If it is done in the name of a council I think the penalty should be several times the wages or the salaries of the people who give the order to do it as well as of those people who are involved in actually doing it, because with just one sweep of the blade of a bulldozer one can have the history of hundreds or thousands of years wiped out. We must be very clear on exactly what we want in this regard. I hope that it will be possible to tighten up control and give the new proposed council greater powers and that there would be greater accountability all along the way.

A greater effort should be made by the council and indeed by local authorities to find new uses for ancient and historic buildings and for buildings of particular architectural value. There must be quite a number that can be adapted. Again, as an illustration there is a Church of Ireland church which was designed by Gandon at Coolbanagher, near Emo in County Laois. I am sure it was built for Lord Portarlington at that time. Over the last few years that has been restored to its original proportions and design — the original plans were still available. It certainly is something that is worth beholding and the lines and the proportions are indeed a joy to behold. That kind of an effort should be encouraged.

The Department of the Environment should be aware of our heritage and of our environment. Only four or five years ago they paid a grant to reconstruct a Tudor house in County Laois, I thought it was sad to find that a house which dated back to the 15th or 16th century with the original hand-cut oak beams and small windows was replaced by nice plaster slabs and plush doors. It seems a pity that an inspector could not have been able to say to the person before the work was started that a heritage grant would be available or put him in touch with somebody who would assist and advise him. After all, we do not have very many thatched houses of the last century, never mind rare specimens like that.

The heritage of the country should be the business of everybody, especially those working for the State. I hope this Bill will result in greater co-operation and co-ordination between all the agencies and services working for the State and within the State.

Somebody welcomed the fact that the Department of Agriculture were mentioned in the Bill but I think they are the greatest philistines the country has ever seen. I started on a long reclamation job the year before last and they cut me by £300 because I refused to cut a white-thorn bush which was growing in the middle of a pasture on low-lying land where there is no danger of tillage. The tree has a span of 12 feet and it is a beautiful specimen. I suppose I was guided by the fact that I can have whatever I like in my own field: I do not think it was the fact that I was a tremendous conservationist but the fact was that I did not want to be told what to have or what not to have. Perhaps that annoyed me. The land reclamation people do a great deal of damage that is not necessary to get the land into full production. I do not think every bush or tree or hedge should be despoiled. Those growing things are necessary if wildlife is to be conserved. Before this century is out, foxes and hares will be extremely rare in this country. People see them as vermin but they are there to keep a certain balance of nature. People do not see them as having any use. I doubt if this new council will be able to extend themselves that far. Nevertheless the great work that An Taisce have undertaken over the years, especially since the Planning Acts are being implemented, has been invaluable and I hope they will be given a role and will be able to cooperate with this council when they are set up. That is very important.

There is one thing I would like to say to local authorities and local authority members who sit on planning sub-committees: they should practise the art of saying "no"; that they do not want to bend rules and regulations. Especially with conservation they ought to be conscious of their obligation to say "no" when necessary in the general interest.

I am very happy to see this Bill coming to the House. I know it is coming at a time when there is not as much money as we would like to have to spend on conservation and on maintenance, but with the will, the way will be found to maintain that which will enhance the quality of life in the country. If one undertakes the Seanad election tour around the country one sees in practically every other town the same kind and type of houses; if you go into a housing estate you could almost give the date it was built and you would also know the architect because I think there must be only three architects working for the 27 county councils. Everything is dated with Bestone and cement blocks and there is very little of architectural value.

Our planners, engineers and architects seem to be dead set on removing every tree or bush or hedge as they like to have the place in one concrete jungle. This takes from the environment. People wonder why we have so many vandals and why young people seem to be so bent on destruction. Their environment is static and though it is new, it is dead: there is no life present, no movement. If the builders and the planners were able to plan the housing schemes and break them up so that they would fit into the existing countryside, people would have a different and more human environment and perhaps would not be so aggressive.

I wish the Minister success in his role and I hope this new council will be able to take up the best traditions of the two or three bodies they are replacing. I wish them success and I hope that when the council are established they will be able to take over Dunamase and take it into their permanent care.

Mr. S. Conway

Ar an gcéad dul síos fáiltím roimh an Aire Stáit go dtí an Teach seo. Ba mhaith liom mo chomhgáirdeas a ghabháil leis as ucht an Bille seo a chur os comhair an tSeanaid. Bhí a lán cainte mar gheall ar áiteanna stairiúla, museums agus rudaí mar sin. Nílim chun morán a rá faoi na rudaí sin mar labhair Seanadóirí go sár-mhaith orthu. Ach ba mhaith liom cúpla rudaí eile a rá. Tá a lán rudaí eile gur ceart dúinn bheith ag tabhairt aire dóibh, rudaí mar ár rinncí agus ceol. Nuair a théann tú trasna na tíre féachann tú ar na coillte agus na crainn iontacha a bhí an Seanadóir McDonald ag caint futhu. Nílimíd ag tabhairt aire dóibh sin ach oiread. Ba cheart dúinn bheith ag tabhairt aire dos na rudaí sin mar sin cuid d'ár dtír agus na daoine a chuaigh romhainn.

I will not spend a lot of time talking about museums or about archaeology as they have been well talked about by many of the previous speakers. It is not that I do not appreciate museums, it is not that I do not appreciate archaeology but they have been well looked after. There are many more things in our heritage, many things that we seem to disregard and take for granted as part of our heritage. I am afraid we will lose track of many of those things. We have our traditional dances. If you go to County Clare you have the Clare set, they have a set in Limerick and I presume Kerry has its own set. We do not concern ourselves with all these things. They are there. We should be nourishing them. This is part of our heritage.

Music is part of our heritage. It is as much part of our heritage as the Hill of Tara or Newgrange. We have barely talked about it. The game of hurling is part of our heritage. It is probably one of the most ancient games of skill in European civilisation. I am not sure if it was referred to earlier on in this debate. Senator O'Connell mentioned, when he was talking about our identity, that it would be very evident during the course of the latter part of the summer and early part of the autumn in various parts of the country, when people on Sunday afternoon would gather in various places for strange rituals associated with leather and wood. I am not sure if that is hurling. I would just call it hurling. It is a much better name for it. I asked a colleague of mine what were various rituals associated with leather and wood right through the country. Maybe the man wants to build mini Sohos in which these pursuits can be followed. These are part of our heritage.

Last Saturday week I had the privilege to be with members of the European Council on a trip to Newgrange. I stood in Newgrange and I looked across the plains of Meath, I could have stood in a similar place in other parts of the country where there are mountains, hills and bogs and I could have thought the same thoughts. I said: "This is Ireland, here is history right under my feet." When I looked across I saw the Hill of Slane where Saint Patrick is reputed to have lit the paschal fire. Then I looked a little more to the west and I saw Tara where high kings resided. This is all part of our heritage. I looked around me and saw the river Boyne, the beautiful waterway winding its placid way through the plains of Meath and I said: "This is our heritage." I looked across at the woods and the trees and I saw the elm, the oak and the beech and I said: "This is our heritage."

All these things combined are our heritage. It is important in this debate that this should be brought out. We should talk about the living things we have. We have talked about the past. It is right that we talk about the past and about museums. It is right that we have museums in which to house things that are important in the growth and the culture of this nation. It is right that we talk about our ancient monuments because they are important as reminders of the great tradition, the great educationalists and the great philosophers from whom we were bred. We should never forget what is growing.

Part of our heritage is our people. We must show respect for that irrespective of who our people may be, whether they be the tinker, the tailor, the soldier, the sailor, the rich man, the beggarman, the poor man or the thief. I would add another profession to that, a fine profession of men and women who were referred to three times in the last week, once in this House, once on radio and once in a press conference as if they were sadistic, semi-retarded morons. Those are the Garda Síochána.

Mr. Fallon

I, like other Senators, welcome this Bill. I have given quite a good deal of thought to the Bill for reasons which I will explain in my address. It is a very important Bill. A Bill dealing with our heritage is very important indeed. I agree with the idea of bringing together heritage functions which have been scattered throughout the civil service. I agree with the idea that a State-sponsored body in the form of the proposed Heritage Council is important. The eventual council must be acceptable to the plain people of Ireland and it must be sensitive to the wishes and the aspirations about heritage matters.

There has been an enormous amount of comment in recent years about the growth of the public service and about the way in which it has been concentrated here in Dublin. Here we have draft legislation to establish a new public body. I most earnestly and strongly recommend to the Minister that this body should be located away from Dublin. I particularly ask the Minister's advisers here to take note of that suggestion. The Minister for the Public Service has an opportunity to strike a bold stroke and to designate the Heritage Council for the provinces. This would be in keeping with Government policy in this particular area. I would go a stage further and call on the Minister to name a centre outside of Dublin as a location, and I would ask him to name it in the Bill.

I strongly recommend to my colleagues that they support this request in principle. If the Minister does not do this we can all be certain that the public servants will come up with every reason in the world why it should be located in Dublin. In my opinion this would be a very bad beginning for national heritage. Ireland to me is its townlands, villages, towns, counties and regions. Unfortunately, far too many influential people think that Ireland is Dublin. I have heard many important commentators speak about the growth of Dublin city with all its undesirable consequences and the concentration of salary workers in the city. People everywhere are becoming alert to this. There is a growing demand, which has not been yet properly voiced, for corrective action. Too many opportunities have been missed, for example, Bord na Móna headquarters, ACOT and many others. Here is a new opportunity which should not be missed.

Whilst the Minister might consider various locations for the Heritage Council I humbly ask that Athlone be seriously considered purely on its merits, for the following reasons. Athlone is steeped in historic content. Athlone is the bridge between the east and the historic west. The greatest single physical feature that the Heritage Council will be concerned about is the river Shannon. Athlone is the largest town on the navigation upstream from Thomond Bridge in Limerick, which is referred to in section 4 (2) (f) of this Bill. Athlone is the most strategically placed centre on the navigation between the two lakes of Lough Derg and Lough Ree. Excellent riverside development has taken place in and around Athlone. Athlone is the most central location in relation to the national park and other properties listed in Parts I and II of the Second Schedule to the Bill. Connemara, Burren, Kilkenny Castle, Glenbeigh and others are mentioned. It is also convenient to the historic Clonmacnoise, the Goldsmith country, to Tara and so on. Athlone is well located in relation to forest parks.

The absence of a proper regional heritage policy is reflected in the Bill and in the Minister's speech on 30 June. The vast bulk of the items to which reference is made are located in Dublin or near the coast. Do we not think of the Midlands? What about Athlone Castle? This is surely one of most striking and most dominating features in all Ireland. Surely its site location is the most important gateway to the West. Its singular significance at vital stages in Irish history should mean that it should have been listed as a special item in our heritage.

Reference to the canals has in some ways been disappointing. It will be a mystery to many people that the canals cannot be easily transferred from CIE because, as we know from our own local authority matters, of legal complexities. Canals are too important in the context of the Shannon navigation to be dealt with separately. The canals up to now have received scant attention from CIE. I ask the Minister to give us some insight into the legal complexities to which he referred, because if we do not sound a note of urgency about this particular matter the wish to have them transferred will have somewhat disappeared.

I have to say an important word about the Shannon. This Bill proposes the transfer of the navigation functions from the Office of Public Works to the Heritage Council. While the Office of Public Works in my opinion have done excellent work on the Shannon I have often heard criticism that they were not at all sensitive to the views and to the wishes of commercial interests. The approach of the National Heritage Council in the navigation improvement will have to be primarily a commercial as distinct from an engineering approach.

I would like to get at something which is most fundamental in this. Transfer of navigation functions does nothing to solve the overall problem of the Shannon. It is the greatest waterway in Great Britain and Ireland. It is one of the greatest waterways in Europe and was described in the Rydel Report as one of the greatest rivers of the world. In November 1979 there was a submission to the Government by representatives of 12 counties in the Shannon catchment area which dealt with this overall situation. It dealt with many things like power supply, fisheries, navigation, town and agricultural areas, effluent disposal and arterial drainage.

What regard precisely does this Bill have to this particular submission? What is the position about the overall scheme for the Shannon for which the EEC have provided something close to £500,000? My opinion is that the vast potential of the Shannon will not be realised until there is one overall development body for the Shannon, which has already been recommended. Where does the navigation function of the proposed Heritage Council fit in this context?

These are questions of importance. The Seanad would be making a big contribution if it were to explore these further. I want to again emphasise my wish that this Heritage Council be located outside Dublin. I recommend that this be enshrined in legislation. I respectfully submit that what I see as a genuine merit of Athlone be taken into account in this particular context.

Mrs. O'Rourke

I would like to welcome the Minister of State, Deputy McEllistrim, to this House tonight. I welcome the opportunity that Senators have had on all sides of the House to contribute to this very important matter. The fact that this Bill was brought to us here prior to its introduction in the Dáil is a very significant step and one which is in keeping with your feeling about the importance of the Seanad, the Leader of our House and the Leader of the Opposition.

The Minister for the Public Service in his very excellent speech when introducing the National Heritage Bill made what I would regard as one of the very finest speeches of content and of sentiments that I have read or listened to for a long time. Therefore, I regard this Bill as very important. As a Senator on the other side mentioned today we were occupied all morning and, indeed, most of the afternoon with financial affairs, such as gas, money or absence of both; we were occupied with matters of economic importance. I feel very strongly that we cannot divorce our economic affairs from our cultural affairs. I also feel very strongly when times are hard, money is tight and we are the whole time being exhorted to tighten our belts and look carefully at every penny and púnt that we spend, matters cultural should never lose their importance. We are much diminished as a people and as a nation if we lose touch with our past, if we lose touch with our heritage and if we do not take inordinate care to see that our heritage in all aspects is preserved and prolonged. It is our duty as public representatives to see that the final aspect of our heritage is passed on to the next generation and generations after. We will not be thanked by future generations if we lose any aspect of our past which could contribute so much to us.

I welcome the National Heritage Bill and the stated intention of the Minister that he does not intend to prevaricate. I noted when Senator O'Connell spoke so eruditely from the opposite side of the House on the introduction of this Bill he had slight reservations. The words he used were "the excessive expedition of this measure". Yet when I spoke on adoption last week and I spoke about festina lente I was cavilled at, so I suppose you wear different hats for different occasions. The excessive expedition of which the Minister spoke was that he wished the council to be set up. That is very laudable. He also said that he would keep an open mind on many aspects. This is one which we should latch on to immediately. He is willing to amend in legislation which will come before the Dáil and Seanand many aspects of this particular Bill, but his primary objective, first of all, is to set up the Heritage Council with its members, to give them their task and stated objectives, to let them work towards this and then to have it monitored and track kept of it so that from time to time the Members of both Houses of the Oireachtas can comment on it and can make our points on it.

Ireland is an old nation. I was indeed interested to hear the Leas-Chathaoirleach of the Seanad, Senator McDonald, speak of the ancient map he saw in Greece and Hibernia draped upon it. We are an amalgam of so many races and reaching back through the mists of time when it is impossible to pinpoint who we are, where we are, when we came or how we came about. No matter how it happened or what an amalgam of strains of people we are, we are very separate and very unique. That is the attractiveness of our country.

I know when tourists come to Ireland, particularly from what we call "the New World", they are fascinated because we have such a past. It is very old to them. They can go back to the Pilgrim Fathers or what they perceived as the first mass landing on their Continent. They come here and they see stone buildings and we can say: "Yes, they are a thousand years old" and that we can trace back a hill or mound. We cannot really trace it back. It could be millions of years old. It is a great feature with them. They can talk about the size of Texas, the size of their ranches, the size of their farms and whatever, but they cannot touch our unique quality, which is the length of our past.

The primary thing about our heritage is the fact that we have such a past. How do we preserve it? How do we keep it? How do we keep its unique qualities? I think we do so, firstly by the setting up of this Heritage Council.

If I may sound a little partisan note from a party political point of view, I am very glad that one of the stated commitments of Fianna Fáil, when we would come into power, was that we would set up this National Heritage Council. I am glad that the economic malaise of the day has not stopped us from so doing and has not stopped the relevant Minister from carrying out his brief and the introduction of this Bill.

I have talked about the vast tourist potential of the past and I have talked about the philosophical need to preserve our past if we are to keep ourselves intact as a nation. I also see it in a slightly mercenary light from the tourist point of view with the unique quality which we have by our past and the educational aspect which the Minister stressed in his introductory speech. This is of great importance. It is a role that the council should pay very careful attention to.

I envisage this National Heritage Council to be set up, and here I would like, indeed, formally to go on record as seconding my esteemed colleague, Senator Fallon — we are from the same town of Athlone and we are beating our own particular drum here as Senator McDonald beat the Laois one loudly and clearly, we are beating the Athlone one — that we put it to the Minister that if there is a designated area — I presume there will be — for the formal setting up of this National Heritage Council I can think of no finer place than the town of Atholne for the location of a national heritage centre. What have we got? We have simply got everything. We are an old town, an ancient town on one of the largest rivers in Europe and in close proximity to Clonmacnoise which is one of the oldest and most valued settlements in Europe for the instruction of scholars. We all know the poem:

In a quiet watered land, a land of roses stands St. Ciaran's city fair

And the warriors of Erin in their generations slumber there.

That would be a marvellous focal point, and I would like to pay tribute here to the way that Clonmacnoise has been kept by the Board of Works. I hope that the Minister will pass on our congratulations. I was there last week with French students and it was beautifully maintained, beautifully kept. The guides and the literature are very good. The crosses, the grasses and every part of it are models of what historic sites should be.

Athlone is an old town, on the largest river in Ireland, easily accessible — when we have our bye road we will be much more easily accessible — with a wealth of history surrounding it. When the Heritage Council is set up formally I would second the proposal by Senator Fallon that Athlone be chosen as the venue. I would like that recommendation to go to the Minister. The setting up of this council will give a focal point for many bodies who up to now had done their best, but in separate units, to promote, to preserve and to keep our heritage. I am thinking specially about local historical societies all over the country who have beavered for years and years with no financial input, purely on a voluntary basis. I think particularly of the Old Athlone Society who have done so much to preserve the castle in Athlone. They have got it floodlit and have kept the museum in a very separate area there. Societies like this around the country see the setting up of this council as a green light to them and also as an expression of interest by the Government of the day in the unsung work that they are doing and have done for so many years.

I went away from the education aspect which I meant to dwell much longer on. I envisage the decentralisation of the museum. I note that the Bill setting up the museum, which has served us so well for 104 years, the 1877 Act, will now be put to one side and that this will take over. I hope that the many items of a local interest could be decentralised to their areas, made their main focal points of interest so that the young people particularly of those areas would have an opportunity to come to their local museum to see the items of interest relating to their past. I just do not mean high crosses or objects of stone, I mean the implements used by people, farming implements of the last century, the clothes perhaps that people wore, the everyday articles that people used in their daily living. History is not all in the "old, unhappy, far off things and battles long ago." It is very much, too, how people lived, how they ate, how they learned, how they had social intercourse with one another. It is so many things. It is part of what we are. It is the make up of everyone of us. I envisage the items of interest related to the agricultural, industrial, social, historical interest of an area being brough back to that particular location, that they would be housed suitably in a suitable environment so that everyone in that location would have a chance to see how their forebears lived. Pride in their own locality would be fostered among the people of that particular area.

The River Shannon is mentioned here but I am slightly worried about something which I shall be bringing up on the Committee Stage. It relates to the fact that the Minister stated that he could not yet incorporate the canals into the Bill because of the complex nature of the legislation governing CIE ownership of the canals. If the whole waterway system of the River Shannon and the canals to it could be incorporated in the Bill I would be happier. I know that the Ireland Waterways Association intend to make a submission to the Minister on this particular aspect of it. They are slightly worried that though the Minister has said he has an open mind and that he will look again at different aspects of it, they would like that enshrined in the Bill. I will discuss this on Committee Stage. That will be for another day.

I would like the matter of the canals to be taken up and that this is brought into the Bill. Too often in the past our history has been a dead matter, museums have been seen as dead places, history has been seen as an inaminate thing. I would like to say history is alive, it is real. It is of people, as we lived and as we worked. Ireland is unique in that we have so many generations to look back on as we lived and as we were. I would like to say "well done" to the Minister for bringing in this Bill. I would like to echo formally. "Make Athlone the heritage centre of Ireland, we will do the rest of Ireland proud."

Debate adjourned.

An Cathaoirleach

Before I call on Senator Murphy on the matter on the Adjournment, could it be indicated when it is proposed to sit again?

Mr. Fallon

At 10.30 tomorrow morning.