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Seanad Éireann debate -
Friday, 1 Oct 1982

Vol. 99 No. 2

Economic Situation: Motion (Resumed).

Debate resumed on the following motion:
That Seanad Éireann expresses its deep concern at the continuing economic and social crisis, the unprecedented level of unemployment and inequitable cutbacks in the social services and hereby calls on the Government to initiate proposals as a matter of urgency to deal with the grave implications of the serious deterioration in the country's economy.
—(Senator Ross.)

Last night I pointed out that the recent public expenditure cuts announced by the Government of £120 million are merely a mish-mash of a redistribution of borrowings by State bodies from sources outside the State. The £54 million savings in Departments have not been detailed. The public service pay cuts, in contravention of an agreement, are likely to result merely in a postponement and not a genuine reduction. In fact these stratagems amount to nothing more than shabby accounting strokes, like the advancement of VAT payments.

It was our concern for the present situation that recalled this House. It arises from a lack of long-term and overall planning and, above all, an absence of a social plan allied to the economic plan. It is not merely enough to plan on some macroeconomic basis of pumping money into and extracting money from the economy in the old Keynesian way and hoping that in the end things will come out right. Similar monetarist and supply side economics have already been discredited in the United Kingdom and the United States. We have to be prepared to review critically the methods and the initiatives of past decades, to examine their effectiveness now in the light of future new challenges and to focus particularly on the future and those new challenges.

The time tunnel we are in cannot travel backwards or relate to the methods of the middle of this century, but must go on to the challenging horizons of the 21st century. That is one of the most vital realities we have to face. We are on the brink of a new century and a whole new revolution of technology. For instance, is our industrial strategy correct in generally making grants available for those who wish to set up industries or should we consider an alternative strategy, namely, laying out our requirements and our priorities as we see them and making substantial grants available to those who are prepared to engage in setting up those industries in fulfilment of that overall plan? We should be setting up industries that have a relationship to the abilities of other industries in Ireland to supply the requirements of the new industry rather than setting up industries willy-nilly which merely import components for reexport and do not draw from other Irish industries. We should do that without drawing up any kind of a protectionist or isolationist stratagem because we are an open economy.

One of the great challenges ahead of us is that we must instill in our people a sense of national pride in what we produce so that we will no longer be satisfied with the cheap, sometimes shabby imports that are dumped in this country. We should reject them as a matter of choice and pride in our own national image. In that way we could stop turning this country into a nation of warehouses where we merely import things and distribute them.

All of us are aware of our increasing population, a population which increases faster than anywhere else in Europe. World trends show us the huge responsibility we carry in this area of guaranteeing a future for the 40,000 extra people who are coming into this country and to whom we owe a lot. Many of us will rejoice in the fact that we no longer have the safety valve of bleeding off our young people through emigration, although this creates extra demands on us. The ball is in our court. This time we cannot throw it into anybody else's. We have to deal with it here and now. How are we altering our structures to cope with the job, housing and educational needs of this fast-growing population? For an economic plan to succeed we must gear our educational system to suit the needs of the modern world. Too much emphasis is still placed on turning out people to specialise as doctors, barristers, accountants and in the professions generally. These professions have terrible problems trying to accommodate young people. They see that in the future there will not be a need for them and they try to prevent young people going into these disciplines.

Our educational needs should match our industrial needs, the need for designers, engineers, electronics experts, personnel computer specialists and should be geared towards raising standards within our service industries. It is a matter of the greatest urgency to gear our educational system to future employment. It is frightening how little progress we have made in changing our out-dated system to try to catch up. There is still an undue emphasis on the academic subjects at second level which prepare almost all of our students for a university curriculum despite the fact that an ever dwindling number can afford what is becoming an elite type of education or indeed qualify for university because of the invidious points system. The thrust of education should be a preparation for the technological future which is inevitable and which should be welcomed but it is thoroughly frightening unless we prepare for it. As Alvin Toffler described it in his book, it will be the third wave of the industrial revolution that will engulf us unless we learn to control and direct it.

Yet, in 1982 in the majority if not all the centres that allow students to do a repeat leaving certificate, it is not possible to repeat two of the most important technical subjects — building contruction and technical drawing. Again in late September 1982 the College of Marketing and Design is not in a position to inform incoming students if it will receive the necessary allocation of funds to give them the space and classrooms to offer those students the courses they have applied for and for which they have worked over the summer to supply portfolios. The whole key to our economic survival is exporting productivity, meaning that we actually do it profitably, productively and competitively. An essential element for the success of such exports is design, marketing and presentation. The college which can provide the training in this necessary and neglected area so far does not have the required funds to honour its commitments to this year's students and fulfil its programme. That is not even talking about the sense of frustration and disillusionment that those students are now experiencing.

We talk about investment. The greatest investment must be the training and education of our young people. The short-sighted and serious cut-backs in education and the irrelevancy of much of our existing curriculum are denying our children one of the most basic rights of all. That is the opportunity of developing into independent, self-reliant human beings who can carry on the social and economic future of this country with pride and with skill. But all investment requires planning, not reacting ineptly to circumstances and situations, which leads to a lack of confidence at best and at worst to fear and apathy. Investment requires confidence. But how can companies have confidence in investing and expanding when they have no confidence in a Government that cannot meet their own budgetary current deficit and balance of payment targets? How they can believe a Government who a few months ago could not cost a gallon of petrol from Whitegate? Yet, a journalist on one of our national newspapers was able to determine the correct figure at the time. What confidence does the ensuing unseemly squabble engender when a Government Minister engages in passing on responsibility to another Minister, thereby exposing even further his own incompetence and dangerous damaging divisions in Fianna Fáil? This week this same Minister announced a cut from £5 million to £3 million in the funding of the National Enterprise Agency. This agency was established for the purpose of providing venture capital and creating jobs, which is a top priority. Apart from bankrupting this country by stumbling from one crisis to another, this is a further example of the bankruptcy of ideas and initiatives within this administration.

At this stage I wish to express my pleasure that the Taoiseach is present in the House particularly to hear what I have to say now because of the commitments he has given to women over the years. One shabby example of this bankruptcy of ideas was highlighted in this House during the sitting yesterday when Senator Fallon talked of the need perhaps to review the Employment Equality Act, 1977, with a view to banning or barring married women from working outside the home. This Act was a direct result of a directive from the European Community and not from any initiative on Fianna Fáil's part and it went some way towards removing discrimination against women in employment and guaranteeing them equality of opportunity. Instead of alleging that by allowing married women to work we are discriminating against the young, we should have a Government who would embark on a programme of expansion and investment in the skills of all our people, married and single, male and female, young, elderly and middle-aged. Instead we have heard a call back to the narrow, excluding, unjust and inequitable society about which Fianna Fáil in their many years of government produced, perpetuated and pontificated.

I should like to show the House the shabbiness and lack of logic, apart from justice, in such a suggestion. I have here a publication Supplement No. 10Women of Europe, with the subheading “Women in Statistics”. This gives statistical data on the economic and social position of women in the Community. On page 13 of the publication there is a table with the following heading: “Percentage of married women on the labour market by comparison with total female population”. The highest rate is in Denmark and the lowest is in Ireland. The figures start from 48 per cent down to the lowest for Ireland at 13.6 per cent.

One of the suggestions we heard in this House regarding a solution to solving our economic problems was that if we could remove 13.6 per cent of the female population from the work force we could stop discriminating against the young and suddenly give them jobs at the rate of 40,000 jobs per year and presumably also get jobs for the 160,000 people at present unemployed. That is the kind of lack of concern for certain sections of our society that will lead to a breakdown of confidence in this administration being able to tackle any of the huge problems facing us. I say this in all sincerity. I do not mean to attack anyone personally; I am saying this in the political sense. I have a commitment in this matter. I believe what has been suggested is wrong; indeed for too long this attitude has been allowed to prevail.

I welcome the Taoiseach also in the hope that we will hear some guidelines regarding the economic plan for the country. I wish to emphasise — and I hope all Members of the House will join with me in this — that any economic plan must be carried out in the overall corporate sense, not just financially and economically but socially.

I end with the plea that this is not the time to introduce divisions and scapegoats. The need was never greater for us to unite, to share our ideas, skills and energies. The future of this country is for a just and democratic nation but we may have to fight for our democracy unless things change rapidly. Unless we do more than pay lip service to cherishing all our citizens equally, we must expect revolution in the streets. The disturbing and destructive tendencies recently to measure the patriotism of people by the amount of Irish blood in their veins should be rejected and abhorred. The challenge for our survival, economic and social, is the harnessing of all our resources, people and material. This House and the Dáil bear a special and real responsibility in offering examples and stardards that will restore the respect of the electorate for their politicians and the institutions that were established at great cost and sacrifice.

As public representatives we have a special duty to offer models that will not disillusion but at least encourage. This will mean a reform of the structures and procedures of the Dáil and Seanad. They are anachronistic and are out of touch with the needs of our complex world and the even more complex world we will face in the future. There must be a reform of the tax and welfare codes. An efficient Government, an efficient administration and efficient Legislature will give efficient industry. We cannot blame others until we set our own Houses in order.

The tragedy for this country and its future at the moment is that unfortunately the present Government have neither the will nor the competence to accomplish that. It is in the light of that lack of confidence, which is shared by far too many people, that this House has met——

I am afraid I cannot allow the Senator to get away with that remark.

We have a responsibility to ensure a good future for our country. We will fail dismally if together we do not attempt to turn the ship of state around and stop it from being sucked into a current from which it will be difficult, if not impossible, to recover.

I would like to thank Senators for their courtesy in affording me the opportunity of participating in this debate. As this is my first visit to the Seanad I would like to avail of it to congratulate you, a Chathaoirligh, on your election as the first woman ever to occupy that Chair. I know women throughout the land see your election as of particular significance for them. While understanding and sharing that sentiment, I have no doubt that your colleagues in the Seanad did not elect you to this important constitutional office as a woman but in your own right as an experienced, dedicated, wise and compassionate politician. I wish you every success in the Chair of Seanad Éireann. There is now widespread understanding among the general public of the fact that the difficulties we are encountering in this country are also being experienced to a greater or lesser extent by practically every country in the western world. Perhaps the greatest shock for the western world was administered by the Japanese Prime Minister when he declared a financial emergency in what is regarded as one of the most successful modern economies.

Nor can those on the other side of the ideological divide find any solace in the present situation for the socialist bloc of countries appear to be meeting exactly the same type of recession as is prevalent throughout the west. The world economy has been in deep recession for over three years now; unemployment in most countries has risen steadily to unacceptable levels. With a decline in economic activity and rising unemployment the budget deficits of governments have risen sharply and as a result the borrowing and debt of governments have mounted. Inflation and higher international interest rates, themselves engendered by inflation and uncertainty, have aggravated these problems.

This long lasting world recession is not due solely to the two massive oil price increases of the seventies. Additional factors are structural changes in industry, the slowing down of industrial investment, technological developments leading to redundancies, and the growing competition from newly-industrialising countries seeking their fair share of international trade. The growth of the labour force in many countries of the western world had also contributed to the numbers unemployed in these countries.

We are not, therefore, unique in having to contend with a sharp rise in unemployment. At present some 30 million people are out of work in the OECD area. In the United States, the most powerful economy in the world, the unemployment rate is almost 10 per cent, a level not seen since the Great Depression of the nineteen thirties. Even Germany, which for so long had over-full employment, is now suffering unemployment at levels unequalled since the war. I could go on to the details of similar situations in every other country but that is hardly necessary since in most of them the situation mirrors that in the US and Germany.

To put matters into better perspective I would point out that since the outset of the recession the increase in unemployment in Ireland has been more or less the same as the average of other EEC member States, even though in that period our labour force was growing at a much more rapid rate than in the Community. Everyone should understand that our exceptionally fast increase in the labour force makes it necessary for us to make greater efforts and bear greater burdens than other countries in order to ensure jobs for our young people.

The adverse international developments responsible for the high levels of unemployment have had a more serious impact on us than on the more advanced economies for a number of reasons. First, our heavy reliance on imports, including energy, put us in a very exposed position. Second, the rise in import prices and the exchange rate movements severely affected the domestic economy, especially in the years 1980 and 1981. As a consequence the upsurge in domestic inflation was greater than that experienced by our main trading partners. Third, the rise in imported prices aggravated the cyclical agricultural downturn, which unfortunately coincided with these adverse international developments. Fourth, the relatively lower per capita income levels in this country compared with the average for the Community as a whole made it more difficult for us to absorb the impact of the oil price changes. The fall-off in the growth in world trade also hampered our export performance, though it nevertheless remained highly credible. Finally, the steep rise in international interest rates added greatly to the cost of servicing of the Government foreign debt.

The serious problem we have this year and in recent years in trying to balance the annual budget is largely a consequence of these developments. This imbalance in our annual budget must be reduced because it constitutes a major obstacle to recovery. It has brought about a situation when the payment of interest on foreign borrowing places far too heavy a burden on our economy. Unless it is reduced from its existing level we shall have to raise taxation to levels which would discourage personal endeavour, make the private sector uncompetitive, discourage private investment and, of course, increase unemployment.

The slow growth of output, continued high interest rates and the need to avoid more taxation and to keep costs to a minimum so as to encourage job creation in the private sector mean that inevitably the main burden of adjustment must be made on the side of Government expenditure.

This need to take action to reduce budget deficits is accepted by many of our partners. In Belgium stringent adjustment policies, including severe cuts in public expenditure and restraint on incomes, are already taking place and the new Governments in the Netherlands and Denmark have clearly signalled their intentions of following this path. In France, where the Socialist Government had hoped to bring about economic recovery and combat unemployment through increased deficit spending, the Government there have also now decided to retrench. Firm adjustment measures, including an incomes and prices freeze and a strict limit on the budget deficit, have already been implemented. In Italy the 1982 budget provided for substantial cuts in public spending, mainly in health and social security. It is particularly significant to note that the corrective programmes of all those Governments include very tough social policy decisions. Those Governments are acting decisively in the knowledge that their budget deficits and lack of competitiveness are threatening their economic survival by depressing activity, particularly investment activity, which is the engine of economic growth.

The same considerations apply to the Irish economy even more cogently because of its openness and our sharper public finance and balance of payments difficulties. We have no alternative but to pursue, as our European partners are doing, rigorous policies of economic adjustment and correction. Against that background they do the Irish people no service who pretend that there is some different, easier or more acceptable way of dealing with our situation.

Our balance of payments problem is formidable. Last year the external payments deficit amounted to £1,370 million or 13.5 per cent of national output. This is simply not sustainable — no country could possibly continue to run a deficit of that order of magnitude. The size of the deficit is closely related, of course, to Government borrowing, especially borrowing abroad, the interest payments on which last year were about one-fifth of the total external deficit. This year the proportion could be higher still. The rate at which foreign debt has been accumulating must be reduced, and reduced quickly, and that requires immediate and decisive action to improve the state of the public finances.

In his budget statement last March, the Minister for Finance emphasised that the Government are firmly committed to bringing the current deficit under control and gradually eliminating it. To that end we set a tough target for the budget deficit with the objective of achieving it through rigid control of public expenditure and increased taxation. Senators will recall that, even though the budget sought to do no more than was reasonable and prudent in the situation, we nevertheless had to fight off a major political onslaught to get through the Dáil the necessary Finance Bill to give effect to it. Because of a deepening of the world recession, leading to a decline in economic activity and other adverse international developments, the Exchequer returns for end-September — due to be published this afternoon — will show a deficit on current account substantially above the target of £679 million for the year as a whole which was set in the budget of last March. Indications are that it will exceed £950 million. The end-September figure, of course, will not properly reflect the trend for the year as a whole because there will be a surplus of revenue in the final quarter of this year and this will bring the deficit down very considerably.

Nevertheless, the outlook is that the current budget deficit for the full year will be well in excess of the budget target and may be of the order of £900 million. This is a serious disappointment, especially in view of the determined action taken to correct the situation. In recent years budget deficits have gone above the limits set because of a failure to control expenditure. But that is not the case this year and I would like the Seanad to fully understand this because there is a great deal of misconception abroad about it. This Government have strictly controlled expenditure this year by exercising constant supervision. We were obliged to take steps in July in order to ensure that there would be no overspending. As a consequence the expenditure figures for this year are reasonably well on target.

Unlike previous years, the wide gap between the budget forecast and the outturn on this occasion results from the returns of tax revenues being substantially below expectations. There has been a significant drop in consumer spending due to the continuing severe recession and this is reflected in the tax returns for VAT and excise duties in particular. So the picture is emerging quite clearly that the budget deficit will possibly go to about £900 million, but that increase in that budget deficit is not due to overspending but rather to a fall in revenue. The Government and the public Departments have been successful in restraining public expenditure to the levels indicated in the budget.

The increase in the current budget deficit is a warning of the critical need to exercise extremely tight controls on expenditure. Those who are advocating more State spending, either as a means of coping with our economic difficulties, or even for understandable social purposes, must tell us how this spending can be financed. It is misleading to suggest that there are large, untapped sources of taxation, especially at a time when tax yields are falling below expectations. The only rational approach is to impose a greater discipline on spending. That is why the Government had to take action in July and this is why we are planning a major reduction in Government expenditure in 1983 as the only way out of our present critical situation.

That the measures taken in July to reduce public expenditure were absolutely necessary has since become clear to all. Those measures were spread right across the public Departments, though it is the proposals in regard to public service pay that have attracted most attention. I digress here to say that I cannot understand the statement by Senator Barnes that I listened to some moments ago about these public expenditure cuts, because they were spelt out in detail by the Government in its statement of 30 July. In the developing economic situation, and given the deterioration in the public finances, the Government felt that the overwhelming majority of public servants would respond to their appeal for pay restraint in the national interest.

It is clearly reasonable, given the state of the public finances, to ask for a postponement until 1 January 1983 of the 5 per cent third phase of the pay agreement for the public sector due generally on 1 October 1982. The considerable saving to the Exchequer in this year that that postponement involved was absolutely necessary in view of the increasing deficit which was already emerging in July. It was also an important signal of the intentions of the Government to set about taking the corrective action the situation urgently demanded.

The Government's parallel proposal that there should be no further special pay increases in 1982 and 1983 reflects the simple fact that the Exchequer can no longer sustain special pay increases of the order which we were facing.

The Exchequer bill increased this year by £323 million, in 1981 by £375 million and in 1980 by £392 million. The Exchequer bill for public service pay now amounts to the staggering figure of £2.2 billion per year.

The prospects facing us in 1983 are already unprecedentedly intimidating. In any event, there will be in 1983 an addition to the bill of an extra £160 million because of the carry-over of increases and increments from 1982 and the payment of the 5 per cent phase from 1 January 1983. So we already start 1983 with an additional £160 million for public service pay.

To add another £250 to £300 million for special claims on to that would be out of the question. But that was the prospect which faced us in July when we indicated that the Exchequer could not meet such a bill and the situation, of course, has become even more critical since then.

The Minister for the Public Service and the Public Services Committee of the Irish Congress of Trade Unions are even now discussing these problems in a mutually constructive and understanding way with a view to reaching an agreement which takes full account of the Exchequer position and the interests of the union members.

I should like to emphasise that we are now moving into a period of falling inflation, which gives us a new justification for moderating our income expectations considerably below what they have been in recent years when inflation was at its peak.

The social services now account for a major sector of Government spending. There has been a growing volume of public criticism of the widespread abuse of the social welfare system. However, and contrary to what the motion would imply, the Government are determined that necessary economies in expenditure will not be to the detriment of that section of our community who must rely on our welfare services for their standards of comfort and security.

As regards social welfare, it was clear from the Government statement of 30 July last and subsequent statements that our intention was to cut back on the abuse of our social welfare services rather than on the services offered to those people genuinely requiring and entitled to them. Expenditure on social welfare in 1982 will, in fact, be about £190 million more than it was in 1981, an increase of some 27 per cent.

The statement of 30 July indicated that new anti-abuse measures were being taken in the social welfare area — specifically in relation to disability and unemployment benefits — which would reduce abuse by about £5 million this year. The Minister for Health and Social Welfare subsequently elaborated on these new measures in a statement which he issued on 3 August last. The tightening-up on blatant social welfare abuse is in the best interest of all, but particularly those who genuinely and legitimately have recourse to the system for their needs. Action by the Government was urgently necessary unless the whole system was to be swamped by abuse and rendered incapable of serving its basic and fundamentally important humanitarian purposes.

In the health area the Government have been concerned to ensure that the economies to be made should not be at the expense of essential health care needs. In the hospitals and health board sectors economies are essential, but our approach has been to allow those directly concerned in providing these services to determine their own medical priorities — it is they who are in the best position to assess where economies can best be made without taking from essential health standards.

In all areas, right across the board, Government expenditure must be reduced. The reductions are not all palatable in their effects, but they are inescapable. Carping and destructive criticism of them ignores the realities of our present economic circumstances.

The Government, I want to assure the House, are well advanced in their preparations of fiscal policy for 1983. The work of preparing the departmental Estimates is away ahead of previous years. Expenditures in every area are the subject of detailed, careful and anxious examination. It is intended that the Estimates will be settled well in advance so that everyone concerned in the public sector can co-operate in the action that must be undertaken.

The seriousness of our difficulties and the severity of the measures needed to tackle them will imply burdens for all sections of the community. These are sacrifices which must be equitably shared and widely supported. At a time such as this, when far-reaching and difficult decisions have to be taken, it is particularly important that the correct framework for taking these decisions be established and that it have the broadest possible endorsement across the community. The Government's forthcoming plan will provide this framework.

It is being prepared with the aid of a wide spectrum of economic expertise including consultation with representatives of employers, trade unions, farmers and youth interests. It is an attempt to set down, as guidelines for the national economic recovery, a full appraisal of our problems and a candid analysis of what we now must do to overcome them and resume our economic and social progress. It will be subjected to full debate in both Houses of the Oireachtas and the Government will consider all constructive suggestions for its improvement. The time has come for all concerned and responsible persons in public and in private life to accept that we have serious problems to overcome and that there are basic solutions to them which cannot be postponed or shirked.

The ultimate objective of the plan is the provision of employment for our rising population. The plan will outline the conditions necessary for us to achieve the rate of growth in national output and investment needed to provide the jobs required to reduce existing unemployment and provide for new entrants into the labour force. Central to the plan will be measures to restore order to the public finances and improve the competitive position of the economy. This, in essence, is the only strategy open to us for creating sustainable jobs in the longer-term and reducing the balance of payments deficit to a tolerable level.

The approach to public expenditure over the period of the plan will be selective. There will be no scope for across the board expansion of State services. Existing services will be scrutinised closely to ensure that they are cost-effective and meet current needs. Within this overall framework the Government are anxious to provide the expenditure needed to promote the expansion of the productive sectors of the economy provided that it can be shown clearly that the commitment of resources is likely to yield real returns to the economy.

There will also be strict control of Public Capital Programme expenditure in order to ensure that it is worthwhile and to curb the overall public sector borrowing requirement and the cost of servicing public sector debt. Priority will be accorded to projects which improve the productive capacity of the economy and yield a reasonable rate of return.

Of equal importance with the restoration of financial stability is the promotion of economic growth. The realisation of the Government's economic, and especially employment, objectives will depend to a great extent on the ability of the private sector to respond to the more favourable climate for enterprise created by the plan strategy. The plan will put particular emphasis on the importance of competitiveness, especially since rapid growth in employment will depend on Irish products increasing their share of world markets as well as maintaining their share of the domestic market.

The necessity to be competitive does not relate solely to the exposed sectors of the economy. It is essential that those employed in other sectors, particularly in the public sector, have full regard to the effects of their actions on the economy as a whole.

Income moderation is also vital in the private sector. This year, largely as a result of wage settlements under the current pay round, Irish products will lose competitiveness vis-a-vis our major trading partners. This trend must be reversed in 1983 and in later years if we are to curtail the growth in unemployment and bring order to the public and external finances.

I must emphasise that while the Government can devise a strategy in the form of a plan, its successful implementation is dependent on the co-operation of all sections of the community. By taking specific measures to restore balance to the public finances, directing public expenditure towards areas which make a positive contribution to economic development, the Government will create the competitive conditions conducive to growth in investment and employment in the economy. These conditions will provide the framework for the community to respond positively. The extent to which our development goals are realised will depend ultimately on the effort and enterprise of individuals and on co-operation between all sections in the interests of the community as a whole.

I am confident that with the full and active support of all sections of the community, the clear and courageous policies to be set out in our National Economic Plan will provide not only the solutions to the difficult problems we face but also the means to achieve the economic and social progress to sustain our growing population. Our economy is basically strong and has the necessary underlying capacity and resilience to respond to the positive policies we will put forward.

I should like, in stressing the underlying strength of our economy, to point to the fact that we have, since we entered the EMS in 1979, succeeded in maintaining the stability of our currency within that system and I want to stress that we are fully confident of our ability to continue to do so. This stability of our currency within the EMS, when added to our high international credit rating, which continues to ensure us excellent credit terms, is a measure of international confidence in our ability to take, for ourselves, and I emphasise that in view of some of the things that have been said in the course of this debate, whatever measures may be necessary to correct deficiencies in our economic and financial structure.

The basic strength of our economy is perhaps most clearly illustrated in its continuingly impressive export performance. Last year, industrial exports rose by no less than 8 per cent in the face of very depressed international markets. Moreover, so far this year they are on target for a growth rate into double figures despite continued weakness in markets abroad. This is truly a remarkable achievement which serves to underline what more of our exporters could achieve if they had that extra edge in competitiveness.

Reflecting this performance, manufacturing output rose by 3 per cent last year with the rate of growth accelerating to 7 per cent in the second half of the year. Admittedly, this momentum has not been sustained in 1982, possibly because of a further downturn in domestic demand and intensified competition on the home market which again underlines the need to improve competitiveness. Nevertheless, the fact that our manufacturing output expanded in the first half of the year when it was more or less flat elsewhere is a very creditable attainment.

Developments in agriculture also give grounds for confidence. Last year, net output fell by 7 per cent with exports dipping by 9 per cent in volume. This year, net output should rise strongly and exports recover. With this revival in output there should be a good increase in farmers' real incomes this year. The Minister for Agriculture is preparing at the moment — it is at a very advanced stage of preparation — in full consultation with all the interests involved and in parallel with the National Economic Plan a development plan for agriculture which will provide for farmers a framework in which they can plan the future development of their farm enterprises.

The expected recovery in agricultural exports and the strong performance of industrial exports will result in a reduction in our trade deficit this year. The trade gap for the first eight months of 1982 was down by £345 million on the corresponding period of 1981. A particularly welcome feature of external trade developments is the improvement in export prices relative to import prices. In the last few years adverse movements in the terms of trade have added considerably to the payments deficit. It is hoped that the welcome favourable movement in the terms of trade now emerging will continue to strengthen and relieve the external payments deficit.

We cannot, however, look forward to a commensurate improvement in our payments deficit this year because of the growth in the interest payments on foreign debt. Nevertheless, the deficit will show a substantial reduction relative to national output. We hope to make further rapid improvement next year with the measures to be implemented in the context of the National Plan. We are hopeful that the domestic measures set out in the plan will be supplemented by continued easing in international interest rates and that, consequently, the relative burden of interest payments abroad, the largest single drain on our external deficit, should ease considerably.

The recent easing in international interest rates is a good sign that the long-awaited downward trend in these rates is under way. The recent falls in domestic rates have been particularly welcome and the Government have moved to ensure that the cuts were quickly transmitted to all sectors of the economy.

We must recognise that domestic interest rates are still high by historical standards. We must strive to get them down further and the only way this can be done is by wholehearted support of the Government's efforts to implement realistic fiscal and incomes policies. Interest rates everywhere but particularly in Ireland are vulnerable to international trends which can at times be dominant. This, however, does not absolve us from the responsibility to assert what influence we can, Irish rates, as nearly everybody is aware, are a good deal higher than those in some of our neighbouring countries. The differential, even after the most recent fall, is still high. If we want to lower that differential, and this implies that Irish rates must fall faster than those abroad, we must first create the conditions conducive to that fall. This in turn necessitates lower inflation and prudent fiscal and borrowing policies.

One of the most important developments in the economy is the falling trend in inflation. It has been fundamental to the economic policy of the Government that our domestic economic decisions should help rather than hinder this trend in international inflation. That is why in our budget we changed the budgetary proposals of our predecessors which would have increased inflation when it was falling elsewhere.

The importance of that strategy is now evident in the fact that inflation in the quarter to mid-August was only 2.1 per cent, the lowest rate since November 1978. The fall in international inflation is considerable also. Our import prices in the first seven months of this year increased by little more than 8 per cent as compared with over 20 per cent in the corresponding period last year.

This illustrates the economic opportunities which are within our grasp if we can control domestic costs by our decisions on pay, productivity, public expenditure and taxation. Unless we moderate our domestic costs in line with the moderating cost trends internationally, we will lose further ground competitively both at home and abroad to our trading competitors. This will inevitably mean that our possibilities of halting and reversing the trends in unemployment will be removed. As far as this Government are concerned, halting and reversing the present trend in unemployment must remain the primary objective of economic and social policy. No opportunity must be neglected, no sacrifice refused, no burden shirked which could help to ensure that our young people can aspire to a future in which rewarding economic and social opportunities will be available for all.

It should not be forgotten that, despite recession, job creation has continued and has absorbed a large proportion of the increasing labour force. The labour force has been growing at a much more rapid rate than in the EEC generally — more than twice as fast in fact. Our task now is to raise the rate of job creation through higher investment and improved competitiveness so that the existing high level of unemployment can be reduced.

The world economic climate and the short-term outlook do not indicate, I regret to say, any significant world economic growth in prospect. Economic policies must be based on the reality of this uncertain outlook. However, if recovery comes sooner than expected, it will be a bonus and we are ready to exploit it. I am cautiously optimistic that there will be some move out of recession shortly and in this I am encouraged not only by the reality of falling interest rates but by the preparations currently in train to develop an investment strategy at EEC level to promote growth. We have been to the forefront in advocating such a strategy in the EEC and it is our hope that it will bear fruit in a renewal of activity in the European economy.

I have outlined the realities of an economic and financial situation which is of deep concern to us all. I have also charted the way we must go if we are to remedy that situation and resume the full economic and social progress which the recession has halted. We face grave choices and decisions. Our economic future and that of the rising generation are involved. We have the potential to achieve an expanding and socially-progressive economy. But that potential can be achieved only by a carefully-timed combination of both corrective and developmental policies. The corrective measures are already in train by this Government and we look to all who have the best interests of the nation at heart to support those measures. Without them, we put at risk our future economic welfare and security.

Combined with these corrective measures we must continue to develop the potential of our people for greater and more diversified economic activity and innovation. The resources are there in our enterprise and technological skills, our fertile soil and our natural resources, some of which have still to be explored. We must continue to invest as heavily and as productively as we can in these resources. We can only do this if in the short-term or period immediately ahead we accept the type of corrective actions in the public finances and throughout the economy generally which are essential if we are to create a modern expanding economy. Other countries are making the necessary sacrifices and accepting the necessary burdens to retrieve their economies so heavily damaged by the greatest recession since the thirties. I know that when the issue is clearly put and the reality fully understood there will be the resolve, the will and the good sense to support the remedies needed now to gain the benefits which our potential, if realised, can bring us.

This Government refuse to comtemplate any policy other than one which will unite all sections of the national community in a determination to correct the present fundamental weaknesses in our public finances and in our economy generally. By so doing we will recover our economic strength and restore our ability to earn our way in the world by our industry, energy and enterprise. We cannot contemplate any other future. The choice must be made now, the decisions taken. If there are those who would shirk it they should know that failure to take the necessary remedial measures and decisions now will mean very soon a shrinking economy and a stagnant society. This would be a sorry end to the high aspirations we have held since we started out as an independent State. The policy options are clear; the leadership will be firm. Every person in the Oireachtas and throughout the land who cherishes the future welfare and progress of the nation must lend their support. No one can or should hold back.

This debate and this special meeting of Seanad Éireann will have been worthwhile if a message goes out to the country that Senators are united on the need to face the realities and the requirements of our economic situation. Let the message go forth also from this Chamber that there is confidence that our difficulties can be overcome and that when they have been our economic resources can be mobilised to build an economy which can again expand and grow in wealth and social equity. Only by such unity, confidence and resolve can we ensure a stable society free of unwelcome pressures which will meet the ambitions and aspirations of our young people whose interests, above all, we must serve by the actions and decisions we take at this testing time in the life of our nation.

May I, too, welcome the Taoiseach to our debate here? His presence adds a significance which all of us welcome. We welcome also the opportunity to hear from him Government views concerning the economy. May I take the opportunity to assure him that, like every other Member of the Seanad, I have fundamental confidence in the future of our people.

What worries me though about the present situation, which all of us agree is disastrous, is that a great deal of it could have been avoided. Any neutral observer must conclude that domestic economic mismanagement has been a substantial contributory factor to the economic crisis in which we now find ourselves. It is of course true, as the Taoiseach has said, that the oil price increases of the mid and late seventies imposed substantial adjustment problems on the economy. It is also true that international recession has persisted longer than expected and has therefore added to our problems.

These international factors were bound to cause difficulties and greater difficulties for a small open economy like ours than for larger more self-sufficient economies in Europe and elsewhere. These international factors, combined with an underdeveloped economy and a rapidly increasing young population, would of themselves have created profound economic and social difficulties for us in the early years of this decade. However, when one adds to them a domestic economic policy based on nothing more or less than the objective of winning electoral support at any cost, then one has a recipe for economic disaster and that is precisely what we have here now.

The scale of the difficulties we face has been outlined by other speakers. I do not need to re-paint the entire picture. However, I should like to focus briefly on one strand which runs through that economic scenario. Central to the economic crisis is the persistence of unacceptably high current budget deficits which in turn feed into unacceptably high balance of payments deficits, which in turn feed into persistent and unacceptably high borrowing requirement. I do not share the view of Dr. Whitaker, a former colleague of ours, that current budget deficits are always inappropriate. I understand the need for budgetary discipline, which that view suggests, but one can use deficits in a disciplined way. The essential prerequisites are that they be used as a matter of short-term policy only and in a counter-cyclical fashion. One could add, perhaps, that they be used to finance essential social services for low-income groups and not to finance frivolous or imported consumption as has been the pattern here.

For these reasons I believe that the use of current budget deficits in the mid-seventies was appropriate, although I am prepared to concede that perhaps they continued for too long and perhaps at too high a level. Our experience since 1977, however, has been of a different kind, both qualitatively and quantitatively. The massive increase in budget deficits and borrowing which we have witnessd since then has borne little relationship to the needs of sound economic and social policy. Rather their primary purpose has been, in the first instance, to secure power for Fianna Fáil and, secondly, to enable them to hold on to it. No one in his right mind would have advocated the substantial increases in current deficits which took place in 1978 and 1979. These occurred at a time of rising growth when the appropriate policy would have been to curtail deficit spending on a counter-cyclical basis. But these massive increases in deficit spending and subsequent borrowing did not derive from the requirements of sound economic management. They derived from the 1977 Fianna Fáil manifesto which was concerned with maximising votes at the expense of national economic wellbeing.

There was some indication that the Taoiseach, in January 1980, understood that conceivably there might be some distinction between the electoral needs of the Government and the economic requirements of the people. In his television broadcast in that month he seemed to indicate that he was prepared to take action on the deficit and on borrowing to prevent the crisis which is now upon us and which was widely predicted at that time. Tragically for all of us it was not to be. The dishonest use of economic policy for party political ends which brought Fianna Fáil to power in 1977 was used unashamedly from January 1980 to keep them there. The purpose of national economic policy for Fianna Fáil has been identical in all respects with the overriding purpose of winning and maintaining power in the period since 1977. It has borne no relationship to our real economic requirements. I cannot in honesty say that Fine Gael have been untainted by the same inclination, although admittedly to a lesser degree. That party's tax package in their 1981 election manifesto had more to do with winning votes than to contributing to a solution to the economic problems which obtained then. It could not be paid for at a time of acute crisis in the public finances and they must or they should have known that.

We all know that political parties both here and abroad attempt to tailor their economic policies in ways which are as attractive as possible to the electorate. That is legitimate provided those economic policies also address themselves to real economic problems which affect the lives of the citizens whom those parties would seek to represent. I regret to say that all too frequently has been the case in recent years.

I am aware that my comments on economic matters, particularly my concern with the size of the budget deficit and the scale of borrowing, may seem a strange point of emphasis for a Labour politician. My reasons are these: in a conservative mixed economy when public finances, external deficits and borrowing go out of control and when the inevitable retrenchment occurs what happens? Unemployment is forced up, essential public services are cut indiscriminately, social services are decimated and the economy generally is deflated. That is precisely what is happening now.

I have been struck by recent statements from the Government to the effect that the time has come for retrenchment. Only six months ago that same Government spoke about boom and bloom. It is really too much to ask that a Government who have contributed in no small way to the scale of the crisis in which we now find ourselves should come to us and ask that we support them in the measures they are now about to take. In politics those who are responsible for the crisis must bear that responsibility. I find it difficult to believe that a Government who persistently, despite warnings from all sides, including from this party, over recent years squandered money for political objectives, should now come and seek our support. I and other members of my party have pointed out consistently in recent years that the boom and bloom theory of politics could only end up in disaster. But the reality is that the disaster will be unevenly spread. Those who benefited least from the comparitive bonanza of the post-1977 period are precisely those who will now be asked to bear the burden of putting things right. Those who will now bear the burden of retrenchment in rising unemployment, in reduced social services, in a decimated public service, will be in the main those who gained least from the import-based consumption splurge in the late seventies and which must now be paid for.

My concern with persistent unacceptably high budget deficits and borrowing derives from two facts. No economy, whether capitalist or socialist, can live indefinitely beyond its means without suffering profound adverse consequences. When the time for consequences arrives working people, ordinary working people, who gained nothing in the interim, are the ones who will suffer. That is what is happening now. Unemployment is rising, inflation is cutting into living standards, especially the living standards of low income families, and there is no merit in suggesting that inflation is an international problem: it is, but the great tragedy is that ours is running at roughly twice the level of the international average.

Health services, education, housing programmes and public transport are under savage attack. Indeed, it is now likely that the gains made in these services in the past two decades can be wiped out in a matter of months. The common factor is that low and middle income families will suffer most from the retrenchment and for the mismanagement which we have been subjected to in recent years.

The important political point is that it has been widely understood for some years now that Government squandermania could not go on indefinitely and that the longer it went on the more economically disruptive and socially disastrous the consequences of putting it right would be. Yet despite repeated warnings, despite repeated exhortations, the Government carried on as if there was no tomorrow. As such, it acted with a degree of irresponsibility unprecedented in the history of the State, and I speak of the period from 1977. My party certainly will not accept any responsibility for what has happened because uniquely, of the three main political parties, in the period in question since 1977 we did not offer any inducements to the electorate for votes because we understood the economic situation and we understood that the price of auction politics would be ultimately what we now perceive it to be: the destruction of the lives of many of those people whom we in this party tried to represent. Though we do not accept responsibility for what has happened, as the Taoiseach suggests, of course we must be as positive as we can to try to find a solution.

Apparently an economic plan is being prepared and presumably short-term economic prospects also are being reviewed. In relation to the plan, the most fundamental requirement for its success will be an improvement in the international economic situation. If that is to happen, and we all hope it will, there is a possibility that we can begin to come out of this crisis at the end of next year. However, if international economies do not improve — a strong possibility — we will be in this situation for some time in the future. So the prospects depend in no small measure on the international economic environment improving. Nevertheless, there are things we can do here as a matter of conscious policy which would be beneficial no matter what happens internationally. The first requirement in relation to economic planning is to create the institutions which can both plan and see to the implementation of the plan.

It is widely recognised by all, including the Government, that we do not yet have institutions capable of undertaking the kind of economic planning the country requires. For too long we have had the notion that planning in some sense has to do with forecasting future trends in the economy. Of course, that has not got to do with planning at all; it has to do with forecasting. Too often we tend to confuse the two. We need an institutional arrangement which will be strong enough, powerful enough and sufficiently influential to begin the task of shifting resources from one sector of the economy to another because that, and no less, is what will be required. It seems to me that a fundamental requirement for the future is a radical reform of the public service.

I am not in any way here criticising individuals within that service, their commitment or their willingness to contribute, but it is farcical that our public institutions have remained virtually unchanged, certainly since the fifties. The innovation of the Department of the Public Service, in my view, was neither good nor bad — it has had a neutral effect. The Devlin operation which promised so much was a waste of time. Therefore, I urge the Taoiseach and the Government in the course of the promised plan to place special emphasis on the need to create effective institutions to carry through the plan they come up with.

I apologise to the Senator because unfortunately I must leave. I assure him I am deeply interested in what he has been saying and I will peruse his remarks carefully later.

Still on the economic plan, I suggest that we need urgently a fundamental review of our industrial strategy. The reality is that if we abstract from the Irish manufacturing sector those new multinational corporations dealing in data processing and sophisticated technological machinery, if we take them and their contribution out, the manufacturing sector here has performed dismally in the past decade. Indeed a measure of its failure is that, despite the investment of thousands of millions of pounds in the last decade or two, manufacturing employment is the same now as ten years ago. Industrial policy must be reviewed and I look forward to seeing in the promised plan an analysis based on premises which will provide for an alternative strategy. The idea that we can improve employment through an industrial policy based on attracting industries from outside is gone, finished. It will not work.

The Taoiseach spoke about the need to create an environment in which the private sector could flourish. I have very serious doubts about whether, no matter how good the environment might be, the private sector in Ireland will flourish. There has not been any historical evidence that it will. It seems to me to be imperative that we begin to develop additional State commercial enterprises: although I am ideologically convinced and committed to this idea, I advocate it also on pragmatic grounds. The reality is that private enterprise will not deliver employment on the scale which we need. When I advocate the requirement of additional State enterprise in the commercial sector I also suggest the development of new criteria under which they will operate. If they are in the commercial sector, let them be in that sector; if they cannot deliver the goods, let them go under. If their managements are not adequate, their managements, just as in the private sector, will have to take on other tasks.

We must conclude that our industrial strategy has failed because it has been excessively reliant on multinational corporations which, by their nature, though contributing to our balance of payments and domestic employment, can never contribute adequately in sufficient numbers.

In the context of a new plan we need a return to the concept of sectoral planning which existed embryonically in the late sixties. It has never made a great deal of sense to me why we do not take national central decisions that we will process agricultural produce right to the very last point rather than exporting on the hoof and so on. It has never made sense to me that we have never developed the resources which are there in abundance in the sea around us. What we need are strategic decisions concerned with sectoral policy within which we identify and consciously develop those areas where we might be capable of delivering at some stage either with comparative advantage vis-a-vis other countries or we might be able to benefit to a far higher degree than we are now in the export markets.

An Leas-Chathaoirleach

The Senator has two minutes to conclude.

Then I will conclude on this note in relation to public expenditure. We are told it has got to be cut. I think there is an inevitability about that at this stage given the mismanagement we have had in recent times.

An Leas-Chathaoirleach

I apologise to the Senator. I misread the clock. He has ten minutes.

Then, if I may revert to the business of economic planning, we do need undoubtedly much more serious devaluation methods in relation to public expenditure. I am, and members of my party are advocates of public expenditure. I think anybody who is not in the context of a small, underdeveloped economy with a rapidly rising population would be less than serious. But it is also true that nobody advocates public expenditure which does not bear some relationship to value for money either in social terms or in economic terms. The great tragedy here is that over the last five or six years — perhaps even longer — the concept of value for money in public expenditure has gone out the window. I would urge therefore that we would develop new mechanisms for evaluating the effectiveness of the high levels of public expenditure which we have and which will persist. I would have thought this applies both to current and capital expenditure. I would have thought that in relation to capital expenditure we should move towards a concept where investment will take place only if there is the probability of that investment being repaid. We need to review our social policy to see to it that the services which we provide get to those who most need them. All of us here can agree that this is not necessarily the case at the minute.

Therefore, may I welcome the idea of an economic plan? I hope it creates the possibility of our moving forward again, but central to that objective must be the creation of serious planning institutions and a much greater involvement by the State in our economy on the basis however of a much more effective notion of value for money in public expenditure.

The earlier speeches of the proposer and seconder of this motion were highly embarrassing to many Members of Fine Gael and Labour who also signed the motion. While agreeing on the analysis of the current economic climate they went on to treat the patient with very different — in fact diametrically opposed — types of medicine and we saw little cohesion in the suggestions as to how the present difficulties in the country could be solved.

Senator Murphy, in his contribution, called for the industrialisation and nationalisation of the land of this country. No one would assert that all of the land of this country is being utilised to optimum production. Indeed regrettably in too many instances this is taken to be not so. But for a historian who has access to information on land tenures and different systems all over the world to suggest the nationalisation of our land as a panacea for curing all our ills to me is poppycock. To offer this doctrinaire, undemocratic solution is to fly in the face of reality. No communist country has a successful agricultural policy. No country has been able to follow through this so-called policy and increase output and efficiency in turn. One has only to look at Poland to find a readymade answer to this.

The late Eamon de Valera and Michael Collins were selectively quoted as in some way subscribing to this kind of land policy. Anyone who remotely knew either man or their ideas for small farmers and home ownership or anyone who read the 1937 Constitution could not by any stretch of imagination obtain any support from those great men for that policy. They were men who supported a mixed economy. They inherited a global, imperial, capitalistic system which dates back — Senator Murphy talked about the 1920s — to medieval times. They tried to infuse it with self-reliance and an increased role for the State. Some of the by-products at that time were the establishment of Bord na Móna, the ESB, and the increased role of the Land Commission, to name but a few. Far from advocating a bigger State role in the economy — and Fianna Fáil was never found wanting when it was necessary to get the State involved in new roles on the economic front — we have seriously to look at the question of ensuring that existing investment in this area can be made or is potentially commercially viable. To do less is to sustain uneconomic jobs.

The suggestion of nationalisation of our land and its transfer, as it were, to PAYE people seems to me to be absurd. It implies that the PAYE sector is a monolithic group and it ignores the fact that many families on the land made great sacrifices in helping their sons and daughters to jobs in that particular sector. Many of them are the product of the family farm system and bring with them certain values and cultural heritages. These deep roots and values will not be sacrificed for such a bizarre, doctrinaire approach.

Having said that, Fianna Fáil will continue to pursue a more vigorous land policy and should further concern itself in the development of this ever-renewing resource. I accept that there is a need to curb land speculation, that there is a need to eliminate profiteering at the expense of young people seeking a home, that large property owners should make an appropriate contribution to the financial situation in the country, that the role of self-financing co-operatives for both urban and rural housing may be a necessary innovation to ensure that young people have real access to reasonably priced homes. I am naturally interested in the Government ensuring that there are sufficient amounts of residential serviced land available to local authorities and other non-profit-making house-building agencies and taking whatever steps may be necessary to bring this about. Parallel with this I would favour the enacting of legislation to release as much land as possible to young people who are prepared to work on land efficiently, who are trained in agriculture — not a blanket takeover as suggested, rather a realistic, humane approach to land tenure.

Together with these proposals in the White Paper which Fianna Fáil produced on land policies there must be a greater effort to ensure that the full resources of our land are exploited to the nation's advantage. We desperately need the jobs and finance that increased output on our farms, processing, packaging, servicing and marketing will bring. Ireland has a unique climate, soil conditions and a near disease-free environment for food production. The role of agriculture in our economy can be greatly improved. There is vast room for improving farm techniques, increasing output in milk, beef and cereal processing, identifying new products and marketing. Many farmers have proved that the economic climate for growth is reasonably healthy and that they can make vast strides. However, farm surveys show also that the yield per cow and the output per acre on many of our farms leave vast room for improvement.

In the future incentives for increased production which the State provides must be geared in a tight economic situation to proven increased output potential. We import several hundred million pounds worth of food each year which we can ill-afford. We must study the opportunities open to us and concentrate and specialise on the production of top quality, well presented food products that command a continuity of supply tailored to the needs of domestic and foreign customers.

We talk about adding value to our produce and I ask why will an Irish housewife pay twice the price for well presented packaged goods of inferior quality to Irish produce that is sometimes badly presented? Like other speakers I appeal to the practical patriotism of our own people and, at the same time, to devise new products and improve our efficiency from the farm gate to the last pound of added value in terms of jobs and so on. The time for talking about this is over. Action from all of us to achieve this goal must be put in train. To suggest that a State desert is the solution to these problems, and to peddle capitalism as the only culprit is to ignore reality and to make a difficult situation impossible. Extreme capitalism has failed just as extreme socialism has failed all over the world. The search for the middle ground must go on. The State can only do so much, and all of us must share in the effort to release the initiative and capacity of our people in genuine, practical and patriotic effort.

Some politicians, people in the media, and others, have now in the hindsight criticised the achievements of the sixties and seventies, criticisms which do not take into account the transformed context of families and Governments in the modern day. The countryside has been revitalised, towns have expanded and developed and the whole infrastructure of the State has been significantly improved. Of course, mistakes have been made. Questions relating to the degree of foreign ownership in industry remain very important and the degree of financial control exercised over investment policy but overall this era was creative and positive and saw the end of emigration. For the first time in 100 years a young population grew up and remained here and they are a real resource, one obviously that presents enormous challenge. If we did not have that development we would have had a continuity of what we had in the fifties with massive emigration.

No one could predict the profound change that the oil crisis would bring about. This crisis, coupled with the international depression, a continuing high level of inflation and massive expansion in the role of State services in western democracies, have all brought with them their own problems. Twenty years ago State investment as a percentage of gross national product was 28 per cent and it is now more than 60 per cent. We cannot afford to go on spending the seed corn and unpalatable tough measures have to be undertaken to put our finances back on a firm footing. Just as in 1958 when we saw the beginning of a new era we have now reached another threshold. We must debate and hammer out new policies to deal with the immediate problems facing the State in terms of inflation and unemployment. We must prepare long-term policies given the assumption that international economic trends are not going to be buoyant or as favourable for some time in the future.

The economic plan which the Government are finalising must look again at the whole question of industrial financing, at the investment behaviour of banks, at the returns to the economy, and to the people, of these investments. Attention must be drawn to the unsatisfactory degree of foreign ownership in our industries. In this respect the role of the IDA and other agencies must be continually re-assessed. We must further intensify our labour-intensive small industrial schemes and provide the necessary incentives for small industries. The role of self-financing industrial co-operatives should be maintained.

Apart from the provision of a greater range of industrial jobs there is also urgent need to examine the provision of jobs and re-examine the range of public service functions which can be decentralised in a coherent and efficient way so as to enhance a properly designed regional strategy. It is clear that the single redistribution of routine tasks from Dublin to some provincial centres, while necessary to begin with, does not really address the problems and advantages of decentralisation. The National Coalition, typical of their shortsighted and blinkered policies, cut back efforts to decentralise and balance regional development in the national interest. Fianna Fáil policy in this area will, however, need further elucidation, and it may be essential now to evaluate in a more logical way whether it is better to decentralise a range of Dublin-based decision-making bodies to the provinces. It will also be necessary to evaluate how successful present regional State bodies are in articulating and implementing national policy in the provinces, and the extent to which lack of co-ordination in the provision of regional services in health, education, welfare and other areas can be minimised so as to make for a more efficient and humane relationship between the people and such services.

The strengthening of our local authorities should be undertaken and additional powers given to these strong, local units should carry with them the responsibility of raising local finance. I consider that this element is essential in having responsible local authorities. I am not suggesting that we should re-introduce rates but we should seek a new form of local finance to help local authorities to provide a better system in their areas. Central to this policy must be the commitment to relocate administrative and decision-making personnel to the regions, adding to the capacity of these centres to attract new growth for both industries and services and so, in the middle-term, increase employment opportunities.

These strategies would help the State better to service the people's needs. Such a policy of restructuring would be more economical in the long-term given the current crippling costs of infrastructural development, land, law and order, and so on, in the Dublin area. Recently at a passing-out parade in Templemore the Minister for Justice, Deputy Doherty, announced that all the recruits who were passing out on that day would be based in Dublin city. I am not doubting the necessity for dealing with growing crime and other ancillary problems in that metropolitan area but the fact that all the recruits at one time would go to any one centre obviously must make one consider that there must be another way of developing the country. With one third of our population in Dublin and with over 60 per cent of the crime rate here, some of the excess development that has taken place has produced in its train its own problems. We must look at that and take advantage from that experience for future development.

This strategy needs careful orchestration, however, and possible regional linkages with existing or proposed development bodies adjoining the North of Ireland would also be of help to both economies. We must look to a greater complementary regional development programme North and South as we hope for with an inter-change of gas and electricity. We must look for an equalisation of agricultural subsidies and so maximise the advantage for Ireland, the island as a whole, in the European and world economy.

Discussion on these structures calls into question the degree of our dependence on Brussels and the role of the EEC. We have become over-dependent on directives and redevelopment from a European base. We must look again to our own resources and renew fruitful schemes which are increasingly abandoned because of EEC directives. We should not be expecting or depending on the EEC to solve our problems as it patently cannot do so. This is not to say that the EEC is not relevant. It plays a significant role in our economy which must operate within supernational structures. We have to continue to fight hard in the EEC to maintain the common agricultural policy. We should not, however, allow this to blunt national policies which are geared to our specific needs as opposed to blanket policies from a European frame. It is obvious, therefore, that there is need for renewed debate in the country on the way forward within a democratic society.

There have been injudicious mutterings about State takeovers from people who should know better. However, this is not to say that there are not groups and parties of the extreme militaristic Right or indeed the more subtle equally extreme Left who will utilise every Government difficulty to further exacerbate the situation, who will in both their speeches and actions gear all their efforts to bankrupt the State, creating further economic psychological depression so as to eliminate democracy and set up a regime which the vast majority of the Irish people would never freely contemplate. This is not to say that the party do not recognise the difficulties of the transformation in Irish society in terms of urbanisation and in terms of uprooting in a search for new identity. Fianna Fáil have to articulate in this plan a philosophy and identity which will match the needs of a new society and a new Ireland.

We have under-utilised the role of co-operatives, not just in the rural sense — here again the role needs to be expanded in downstream processing and added-value particularly in the food area — but also in terms of urban co-operatives. The plan must take a searching look at the role of trade unions and other bodies, not just in the area of safeguarding jobs and relativity but also in the creation of new job opportunities. The vast bulk of our trade union people work hard and are responsible. But there is no denying that there are small groups who have cultivated inter-union rivalry and produced quite a lot of difficulties. It goes without saying that we cannot afford to buy our way out of industrial relations difficulties. The impact of certain State and semi-State organisations in this vital area has over recent years been negative and sometimes bordering on scandal. Let me mention one development which I find particularly obnoxious: that is that people must obtain increased income to move from dilapidated, cramped conditions into newly built, well-provided houses. Surely we have not reached a stage where, in all the problems we face, we have to seek more in that kind of situation and leave young people without other facilities or prospects. We must look seriously at this area.

The main reason for the cut-back in public expenditure is obviously to improve our public finances and eliminate wasteful expenditure. The effectiveness of public expenditure across a broad front must be subjected to intense scrutiny. We have continued to spend an increasing proportion of our national income on non-productive areas and a correspondingly decreasing amount on the economic services. If less oil is put into the engine of growth there will be less room for non-fare paying passengers. The very services that are so essential for the old, the sick and the very young will be in jeopardy if corrective action is not taken. It is vital that those in genuine need are catered for to the fullest possible extent and that wilful waste is eliminated.

In some cases working a shorter week produces a higher income than working a full week. There is evidence to suggest that doctors' certificates are available to persons who are not genuinely ill. One could go on to people who are working and still in receipt of benefits. The motion refers to social services and to what is unfairly described as inequitable cutbacks. I could discuss the different philosophies which the signatories of this motion have in this regard. That would be totally sterile and unproductive.

Fianna Fáil give second to no one in their commitment towards the provision of the best services possible in the social welfare area. There has been a continuous process of improvement on these schemes over recent years in spite of severe financial constraints. None of us can deny that we have heard in our own areas the stories of situations which have developed because of abuses of the system which have been described here. We all have an interest in ensuring that these abuses are eliminated. If they are, there will be more for the real necessitous in our society.

I want to deal briefly with cutbacks in the health services. There have been proposals in a number of regions to reduce the number of beds in hospitals. As we face the winter one finds these proposals most unpalatable. I accept, of course, that there has been a phenomenal growth in expenditure in the health services, which now between the voluntary and the State areas totals a sum of almost £960 million. Obviously within that figure there is room for not only getting a better service for the people but for eliminating waste. We know of abuses of the medical card system. In many ways the 1970 Health Act can be a licence to print money. We have statistics available which suggest that in some parts of the country patients are being admitted to hospitals at four times the average rate for other areas. Notably all of these statistics are available from areas which are quite close to major hospitals. I am not suggesting that doctors consciously admit patients who are not ill. But if there are statistics available which show that as many as 16 per cent of patients admitted to hospitals could be adjudicated to have no necessity to be admitted, in the context of escalating hospital costs at present a tightening up here is necessary.

I should like to make some general remarks to try to offset the pessimistic tenor of this motion. It is generally admitted that the latest trends in our economy are mixed. That is different from saying that they are totally black and negative, as this motion implies. There are some good omens. The recent reduction in interest rates, for example, should not only be welcomed by business and mortgage holders but also by business, farming and commercial interests and should stimulate economic activity. If these reductions are maintained at home and abroad until the end of the year they should ease to some extent the budgetary problem next year.

There are a few more encouraging signs. Agricultural exports rose by 17 per cent in the first half of this year. Manufactured exports rose by 29 per cent. The import scene is also encouraging. While imports rose in value by 21 per cent last year, the real increase was only 2 per cent for the first half of this year. Agriculture is now showing signs of emerging from the recession which hit it in recent years. This improvement can and will be maintained. There is clear evidence that the breeding herd is increasing. In 1983 there should be a growth in the volume of output, given that cattle and dairying are in an expansionary state. We should also note that the Government's decision to abolish rates will help to support farm incomes next year as will the full impact of the calf subsidy. All in all, therefore, another real increase in farm incomes is likely in 1983. The Government are firmly committed to the maintenance of the common agricultural policy, which has been of enormous benefit to Irish agriculture. We will continue to fight vigorously in Brussels in this regard.

The general outlook should not be one of despair and hysteria, as this motion implies. Fianna Fáil will not bow to the philosophies of despair. However, we live in a tough domestic and world economic environment. We look far too much to the Government to solve our problems. There is a huge gap between economic reality and people's expectations. I accept that politicians on all sides cannot wipe their hands clean from sharing in some of this responsibility. There is nothing wrong with a desire for a better standard of living which is matched by a determination to work towards achieving that goal. Most people have become used to a pattern of steady improvement, but it is clear that it will be increasingly difficult, if not impossible, to maintain this trend. As a people we must look again and achieve a level of patriotism which will bring daily into question the degree of selfishness and opportunism that has crept into our society. In this respect we should look to the regions, the provinces, and also to the great democratic organisation of the party system: a constant flow of information from the grassroots upwards which, in turn, obtains an honest appraisal from the Government of the economic and social condition.

To survive in today's world we have to expand the innovative capacity of industry and our public services. Our young people have to be trained to deal, manage and plan a rapidly changing, more complex society and technology. With the highest percentage of school-going children in western Europe, cutbacks in education are obviously not the way forward. To maintain and enhance our position in the world we have to be able to compete, to be innovative and to sell our products at home and abroad. Our young people have to be skilful enough to deal with this situation. Therefore, policy must be based on the recognition of the need for a more strict fiscal programme, coupled with an imaginative exploration of all avenues available to us to provide for the needs of our young people for education, jobs and houses. In short, this Government must have the vision to plan to build a future for all our people.

There is a notion abroad, particularly in the media, that the economy belongs to the economists. We have had long lectures from economists about the need for restraint and sacrifice. What Seán O Ríordáin said in a poem called "Ní Ceadmhach Neamh-shuim" sums up much more the proper attitude of all of us to problems of economic growth, the distribution of resources, income and wealth. I will quote the poem:

Níl aít, níl sruth, níl sceach,

Dá iargúlta iad, níl leac,

Bídís thuaidh, thoir, thiar nó theas,

Nár cheart dúinn machnamh ar a suíomh,

Le gean is le báidhíocht;

Dá fhaid uainn Afraic Theas,

Dá airde í gealach,

Is cuid dínn iad ó cheart:

Níl áit ar fuaid na cruinne

Nach ann a saolaíodh sinne.

Those of us who are more or less professional politicians have got to face the fact that if we are to talk in constructive, radical and future-orientated terms about the economy, the use of the economy and the distribution of resources, we must face up to our own increasing irrelevance to two large sections of society — the poor, who do not believe we care and who hardly know we exist, and the young, who I suspect are almost universally cynical, apathetic and indifferent to our claims, our pretensions and to our often inflated opinion of our own significance. In the words of T.S. Eliot, I suggest that in the eyes of young people——

We are the hollow men

We are the stuffed men

Leaning together

Headpiece filled with straw. Alas!

Our dried voices, when

We whisper together

Are quiet and meaningless

As wind in dry grass

Or rats' feet over broken glass

In our dry cellar

We have a conventional wisdom. The first pivot of that conventional wisdom is that the country cannot afford additional taxation. Because our present taxation level is somewhat higher than the OECD average as a percentage of our total production, we are told we cannot afford extra production. When our dependency ratio is substantially higher than any other EEC country we must have a higher level of taxation or else we condemn those who are not in a position to be productive to unacceptably low standards of living.

We are told we cannot afford extra production. Yet, back in the middle of the 1930s at the height of the worst recession and depression the world, including this country, had ever seen, capital taxation produced almost 4 per cent of State revenue. In present-day terms an equivalent return from capital taxation as it was then in the form of estate duty — I am not even referring to rates — would produce £150 million. Ironically enough, this is about the sum by which the Taoiseach suggested the budget deficit will exceed the estimated figure. Although I have some reservations in some areas, I share many of the sentiments expressed by Senator Murphy. However, I have no illusion that will happen in the next five or ten years and I am too much concerned about the sufferings of those who are here today just to confine myself to that long-term view. In the short-term, in the present system it is quite clear that a sum in the order of £200 million in capital taxation is a quite realistic figure.

I should like to quote from a recent publication of the Economic and Social Research Institute regarding capital taxation:

As taxation on capital and on inherited wealth in this country drifts towards the inconsequential, a real awareness of the existence of social class in this country would have alterted policy-makers to the possibility that Ireland may enter the 21st Century with an upper middle class so privileged and so securely entrenched as to hearken back to its 19th Century predecessors.

An Leas-Chathaoirleach

Will the Senator please give the quotation?

It is from the Economic and Social Research Institute Paper No. 109 entitled "The Distribution of Income in the Republic of Ireland: A Study in Social Class and Family Cycle Inequalities", page 182. I do not understand why PRSI contributions should cease at £8,500. It is estimated that to extend PRSI contributions to all income levels would produce an increased revenue of the order of £25 million. I do not understand why we have to have a maximum rate of 60 per cent for income tax. It is out of line with every other developed country who have rates of the order of 87 per cent to 93 per cent. Even in highly competitive countries such as Japan they have higher rates of income tax. It is utterly inequitable and is impossible to justify that nobody will ever pay a higher rate than 60 per cent in income tax. It is unjust and unfair.

Those simple proposals, all of which are achievable in the present economic order, would produce revenue of the order of £200 million. Since it has been done by others in the other direction, may I suggest there is a good case to be made for charging for some services; not the usual ones, not the ones based on the assumption that we make the rhetorical statement that we must all make sacrifices and then wring our hands and be brave at the expense of the poor. For instance, if people were charged the realistic rate, the real cost of telephone installation would generate revenue of the order of £60 million. That would not crucify the poor and it would generate more than half of the total value of the cutbacks announced last July just by charging people the real cost of telephone installation. I do not understand why the tourist industry cannot finance Bord Fáilte in the way the dairy industry finances Bord Bainne. That would save us £20 million. I do not understand why AnCO which provides a service which ultimately results in increased profitability for industry and which should be recognised as a major service should not be financed by industry since they are the people who advocate most strongly the idea that those who can afford to pay should pay for a service. I say industry should pay for AnCO and that would save us £30 million. I do not understand why the farming community cannot finance An Foras Talúntais since they are the people who benefit from it. That would save us £12 million. I do not understand why ACOT should not be a charge on the farming community who should pay for the services available. That would save us £13 million. That makes a total of £135 million. I understand that the women's prison at Clondalkin on which work is still proceeding will cost £20 million. That is twice as much as Knock Airport but nobody, either of the left or the right, has ever said unequivocally that that work should stop.

I could go through a long list but at the end of it all, and bearing in mind what I said regarding our total irrelevance for young people, the item of public expenditure I would find most difficult to justify to the half of our population under 25 years is the 1½ per cent of our GNP which we insist on spending on the Defence Forces. I do not understand why this country has to spend three times as much per capita on the Army as Japan does, or why we have to spend more on the Army than we do on the Garda. I do not understand why we need a 15,000-member Army or all the trappings of adult war games, the sort of things we would not let our children play with. We see grown men running around playing war games and they are idolised by the media as evidenced by full pages of photographs about war games in County Cork. We are supposed then to turn to our young people and say that we must make sacrifices, yet we can afford to spend close to £200 million a year on adult war games.

I do not know what sort of hidden inadequacy or need to assert our masculinity makes all of us politicians feel that we must associate ourselves with war games which effectively concern killing other people in the most efficient fashion. A quite realistic target would be the reduction of our military expenditure by at least £120 million, and that is a very substantial contribution to reducing the budget deficit. We would still have an efficient force capable of dealing with the only sort of threat that could justify an army in this country, the threat of internal subversion. The FCA alone is costing the country close to £10 million a year and as far as I can see, its main function is providing people with additional paid holidays in attractive resorts all along the west coast. Beyond that it serves no great purpose other than to introduce people to the use of weapons which they could well do without.

I have suggested a whole series of possible cuts in savings and possible sources of additional income which are realistically feasible within the present economic order, and they will not be tackled. On the other side — I agree with Senator Smith in this — we could consider real decentralisation. We pay our city managers and CEOs of health boards and VECs in the order of £20,000 to £30,000 a year, yet almost everything they do must pass back to Dublin for final approval, usually at the hands of a junior official who is neither as well qualified or as well trained as the person whose decision he is supervising. If we pay people that sort of salary we should (a) trust them sufficiently and (b) expect them to take the responsibility to deal with the problems at local level. If we can get rid of a whole layer of bureaucracy and redistribute it into areas like the Department of Social Welfare which is chronically inefficient and obviously understaffed, we would have a real decentralisation instead of the mythological thing which merely gives two groups the opportunity of blaming each other for everything that goes wrong. The local authority blame the Department of the Environment and the Department of the Environment blame the local authority. The savings there would be more than adequate.

IDA expenditure must be looked at. A notion seems to be abroad that you just pump more money into industrial incentives and thus automatically create more employment. It is something like going fishing on a day when the fish will not bite. It does not matter how much you try or how much bait you use, if the fish are not biting they will not bite and if they are biting you do not need much bait to catch them. There is a notion abroad that if you keep on pumping in incentives, then entrepreneurs will surface miraculously. The production process is not as simple as that and it cannot be met in that way.

The major hope for economic growth must be in agriculture. It has been suggested by an eminent authority that dairy production could be increased by 50 per cent without any substantial increase in capital investment or in the cost of input. Such an increase would increase exports by £350 million. It has been suggested also that calf mortality could be reduced by a factor of three, from 15 to 5 per cent, which would produce 200,000 extra calves — and obviously cattle — immediately without anything other than proper management. Another suggestion was that a reasonable realistic growth rate in agriculture of 5 to 6 per cent could produce somewhere between 75,000 and 100,000 extra jobs over 15 years. That is the sort of number we are talking about which would make a real contribution to what this country needs, yet none of this will be done.

We have given away our fisheries, the richest fisheries in western Europe, in return for spurious short-term benefits from the EEC. The private entrepreneurial capitalist class of this country had 60 years in which to develop fisheries, and they failed miserably. They had the resource, they had markets, and they never managed to do anything about them — I suspect because they were not prepared to take the risk. The Irish entrepreneurial class barely exist, and where they exist they want guaranteed risk-free enterprises, not the sort of real risk that used to justify capitalist economics, the risk of something like a major industry such as fisheries, undeveloped, underdeveloped and now virtually given away.

At the centre of the problem of agriculture is the problem that one third of the land in agriculture is inadequately and inefficiently farmed and must be transferred from the hands of those who will not work it to those who will. There is no need to nationalise the land. I believe that it belongs to the community anyway and whoever works it is working it only on behalf of the community. The land must be liberated from those who will not work it and transferred to those who will. A combination of incentives to leave in terms of decent retirement pensions — the present scheme is not decent; it leaves them far worse off than they would be if they retained the land and took what they were entitled to under social welfare — coupled with a withdrawal of all subsidies and grants from any farm that was not being farmed realistically, would create the climate which would persuade people that they could leave the land without any hardship. We must get rid of the mystique that farmers, farming people and the farming organisations would have us accept. In New Zealand, one of the most efficient agricultural economies in the world, a substantial number of those farming come from urban and city backgrounds. There is no more mystique in farming than in any other aspect of industrial production. It can be done by people who are prepared to work, who are properly trained, properly educated and properly motivated. This mystique that farming must be done by those who are traditional farmers is a load of nonsense fostered by the farming community to excuse their own lack of efficiency and production.

Therefore, there are plenty of possibilities for growth, development, balancing public expenditure and additional revenue. Most of them have often been talked about before now and will not be implemented. The Economic Plan when it comes out will be brave and courageous in terms of the poor. The unpalatable decisions that will be offered to us will be at the expense of those at the bottom of the heap. What I have listed would be unpalatable decisions to the people who could afford them. I suggest that the decisions that will be taken will not be unpalatable. We will have instead the tired old clichés that what the country lacks is an incentive to work. The major lack of an incentive to work is not in the industrial work force. It is in the agricultural sector. A large section of those in agriculture do not want to work because they do not need to work. An elderly bachelor living on his own can make a comfortable living without bothering to work or worrying about new technologies or innovative production processes.

Senator Eoin Ryan and the Taoiseach mentioned welfare abuses. I wish to God somebody — I cannot do it, I am not in Government — would give the ESRI a couple of million pounds and tell them to go and find out once and for all what, if any, welfare abuses exist. Much of the mythology going around would then be put in its proper perspective as a minor aspect of the total expenditure. I suggest that before the Government start taking decisions about welfare abuses they would at least find out the scale of them. I remind all those who lecture us about welfare abuse that every allegation made about it is a further humiliation of the 60,000 to 100,000 young people who at present are unemployed, who cannot get jobs, who are sick to death of people from industry and otherwise talking about the disincentive to work and people who will not work for £100 a week. I know 100,000 young people who would love to work for £100 a week and cannot find work. Every time somebody lectures yet again about welfare abuse it is those people you are humiliating and grinding down further.

How can you expect improvement in the quality of the delivery of services like unemployment assistance if everybody in those services believes that the general public opinion is that 95 per cent of the people coming into the labour exchanges are fiddlers, chancers and conmen? You have unpainted labour exchanges, long queues, short tempers, bad manners and general humiliation because those people are being treated in that fashion. If there is abuse — and I challenge the Government to allocate a substantial sum of money to the Economic and Social Research Institute to find the level of abuse, to quantify it, to identify the areas of abuse — once it is quantified, I for one will happily support measures to deal with whatever abuse is identified. But there is no point in perpetuating myths and clichés that have no substantial evidence to support them, other than the old one that everybody knows it is going on. Everybody does not know it is going on the scale that is suggested.

What has been created is a climate of opinion to justify cutbacks in the social welfare services and I would hate that to be done and will not remain silent if it is done. Of course, some believe that a lot of things I have proposed cannot be done because it would destroy the incentive for industry. It is extraordinary that an American consultancy group, Telesis Consultants, suggested that many of the IDA grants and assistance were unnecessary, that most of what is being achieved could be achieved without a substantial part of those grants. It was not some left wing radical like myself — it was a respected international firm of consultants who suggested that perhaps we are being over-generous and not really being any way thoughtful or careful about how we use our incentives.

What has happened is that the vast majority of our politicians have been intimidated by the industry lobby into believing that everything must be left alone. One thing after another is being sought by the industry lobby. First of all, they sought wage restraint. They got wage restraint and now they are turning on public spending and are producing a whole series of what they would regard as courageous proposals. The extraordinary thing about their courageous proposals is that the one group that will not be affected by them are either industrialists or farmers. It will be the poor and the public service who will suffer from the consequences of these allegedly courageous proposals.

I say this after some consideration. What happens is that the fundamental conflict of interests between the classes in this country, because we have a society which is very divided on a class basis, can be papered over in a time of economic growth, when the growth rate in our economy finances the welfare services which paper over the cracks. But at the first sign of trouble and when we get to the present stage, the fundamental class conflict between those who control the means of production and investment decisions and those who work in industry and in production surfaces again.

The recent pronouncements of the Confederation of Irish Industry about cutbacks in public expenditure because they were so selective, so obviously directed against those on social welfare benefits and those earning wages, can be nothing more than a further example of the development of that sort of basic class warfare — and it is not coming from the working class, it is coming from those who control investment decisions. They are seeking a further degradation of the living standards of the poor with the mythological promise that once this is done then we will start producing. We got the same argument about wage restraint 12 months ago. They got that and what happened? Industrial production is collapsing. So what more do they need? The central problem is that we have been intimidated by the industry lobby and by the agriculture lobby to believe that massive incentives are needed for production. The problem is in fact, that there is a lack of willingness to increase production. In agriculture, that can be done by letting different people do the job. I suspect the same thing applies here, but there are other ways.

When people talk about the problems of the western economy, you rarely here Austria mentioned because Austria is not a problem country in the western economy. Austria has low inflation, low unemployment and manageable public financing. It also has had for the last 15 years a social democratic government which believes in social democracy. It has a highly politicised trade union movement which is intensely involved in consultations with the government and has a very sophisticated system of decentralised consultation and decentralised decision-making on the basis of which national consensus can be achieved.

Our trade union movement has shown its willingness to participate in the national consensus. It has shown it in wage restraint and in many areas. What is not apparent is any willingness on the part of those who control capital, wealth and investment decisions to participate in such a consensus. The only consensus they want is one on their terms. If that is what they want, then what they will get is class warfare. The alternative is consensus as has been achieved, as I point out, in Austria, in a free society. We can do it here but the captains of industry, by the tone, the hostility and the colour of their pronouncements, are moving us in the opposite direction. If that is the way they want it, then so be it.

It is in that context that our young people see us and judge us as politicians. They know that we waste £200 million a year on armaments expenditure and that we are afraid of those who control wealth and property. They believe that those who control wealth and property have special privileges, both within and outside the law. They believe that most politicians are corrupt — and I make no exception of myself in that regard. Most of the young people whom I know are still trying to figure out what I am getting out of politics, because they do not believe that I am in it for any good cause. They do not believe that anybody would ever go into something as pointless, ridiculous and irrelevant as politics unless they were getting something out of it. I say this because it is true and needs to be said over and over again to politicians. It is in that context that we have to judge our actions. Our young people have a question to put to us, which is better put by T.S. Eliot than by myself.

Had they deceived us,

Or deceived themselves, the quiet-voiced elders,

Bequeathing us merely a receipt for deceit?

The myth that we, the older generation, have the monopoly on wisdom is probably the most insidious myth that has ever been foisted on the young. The old people whom I know who are any good are those who still have young ideas, still share young dreams and young aspirations. We do not trust our young people, we do not understand them and we are frightened of them. If we shared their dreams, hopes and aspirations, then this country could begin to move and if we substituted some other value for greed, then we could begin to move again. For far too long people have suggested that greed — usually called the profit motive — is the only incentive. Yet most of us do most of the things that matter most to us for something other than material gain. But we do not really believe that is translatable into national terms.

Yet, Fianna Fáil, our biggest party, have the finest evidence that it is quite feasible to motivate large sections of the people to work for ideals other than tangible material gain. We saw this in the thirties in the struggle with Britain over land annuities, when Fianna Fáil motivated the small farming community to make enormous sacrifices for a principle — not for the cash value. Of course it can be done again, but will not be done again if we are guided by old dreams, old ideas or old men — or young men indeed, worse still, with old men's dreams. What T.S. Eliot said sums up my attitude and the attitude of the young; and the truth about the so-called wisdom of the elders.

Do not let me hear

Of the wisdom of old men, but rather of their folly,

Their fear of fear and frenzy, their fear of possession,

Of belonging to another, or to others, or to God.

The only wisdom we can hope to acquire

Is the wisdom of humility: humility is endless.

From the media coverage given to the recall of the Seanad, one would imagine that this two-day debate was going to solve all our social and economic problems. Indeed, if that were so, Senators Ross and Murphy would have had no difficulty in getting the 30 signatures necessary to recall the Seanad. In fact I would say, without fear of contradiction, that every Senator would be only too happy to sign if a debate of this kind would solve the serious unemployment problem and give hope to the thousands of young people who are desperately seeking jobs — jobs which in many cases were filled before they were advertised.

I listened very attentively to the contributions from those Senators who were responsible for the recall of the Seanad, but I have not heard many solid suggestions as to how we should tackle the unemployment problem, how we might prime the economy and generate employment in the private sector. Even in these difficult times there are certain sectors which could be developed and expanded. I have read and re-read the terms of the motion before the House but I cannot find any reference in it to our premier industry based on our native products, namely, agriculture. Nor can I find any reference to our important fishing industry. Perhaps this is not surprising since two of the prime movers of this motion are academics who have not, and could not be expected to have, any real knowledge of or interest in these two vital sectors of our economy. What is more surprising, however, is that Fine Gael and Labour Senators contributed to these omissions. In any event, the motion is so broadly framed that I presume I cannot possibly be prevented from discussing those two vital industries.

The motion as framed is totally negative and deliberately ignores the positive side of our situation. There are many encouraging signs in the agricultural sector. In 1981 agriculture contributed 12 per cent of GNP while agricultural exports, together with receipts from FEOGA, amounted to £1,553 million — in other words, almost one-third of the country's total exports. The proportion of our people directly engaged in agriculture was almost one-fifth of those gainfully employed. These are factual figures and are extremely encouraging and impressive by any standards.

Senators will be aware that both the national and international scene have been tense and difficult. But our economy is fundamentally sound and the prospects are good, particularly for agriculture. Agricultural exports, as has been stated here already, went up by 17 per cent in the first half of this year, and the sector is showing very definite signs that it has got over the recession which has affected it in recent years. Farm income outturn in 1981 represented a significant improvement on performance in the immediate preceding years. The current indications are that this improvement can now be built on and sustained, and there are already published and accepted independent assessments of a real increase in farm incomes in 1982.

The Government have stated again and again that the agricultural sector can make a major contribution to overcoming the present difficulties with which our economy is faced. In this connection the Government's national economic plan will play a vital role. But, side by side with that plan, work is also proceeding on a four-year development plan specifically geared to agriculture. This plan, which will be available by the end of October, will chart the progress and development of our agricultural industry in the coming years. Farming organisations and other interested groups are fully involved and are co-operating in the preparatory work on the plan. I am hopeful that a realistic and workable programme can and will be produced. I also hope that as a result of the plan agriculture should be a vibrant developing sector of our economy and that it will make a major contribution to our overall national recovery and expansion.

The EEC have a tremendous influence on the development of our agriculture and, in particular, the vital decisions made under the common agricultural policy, the most important of which is the annual prices package. The Government have re-affirmed our intention to continue to defend in Brussels the basic principles of the CAP despite challenges being mounted against it.

The annual price fixing ritual in Brussels has become more and more difficult and complex, and issues are being introduced which are not relevant to the agricultural sector and which have a divisive effect on the Community as a whole. But despite these difficulties, from Ireland's point of view the package negotiated this year was a highly satisfactory one, the overall benefit being approximately £235 million over a 12-month period. This should result in significant increased production and a boost to farm incomes which are expected to show another real increase in 1983.

During the past four years the Government have been seriously concerned about the state of our agricultural industry and the level of farm incomes. The prospect of a real incomes increase in 1983 is encouraging and will be welcomed by all of us associated with or interested in this great industry. As a representative from the west of Ireland, I should like to refer briefly to some aspects of agriculture which are of particular relevance and importance to that part of our country. The Government are committed to the full realisation of the agricultural potential of the west of Ireland. Under the umbrella of the EEC Disadvantaged Areas Directive, the Department of Agriculture are operating a group fodder scheme and, in addition, are paying increased grants to development farmers.

I should also like to mention the Western Drainage Scheme which I had the pleasure of launching in January 1979. This scheme is aimed at accelerating drainage in the west of Ireland. The scheme covers both field drainage and arterial drainage. Grant aid for field drainage has been fixed at 70 per cent of the estimated cost.

The scheme initially provided for field drainage of 100,000 hectares and, in addition, a further 30,000 hectares will be improved as a result of the arterial drainage programme on the rivers Corrib/Mask/Robe, Boyle and Bonet by the Office of Public Works. The scheme was scheduled to operate for five years at an estimated cost of over £40 million funded on a 50-50 basis by the Exchequer and the EEC. An extension of the scheme was granted in July 1981 for field drainage of an additional 50,000 hectares up to 31 December 1986 at an extra cost of £19.8 million. A further £20 million was provided also for arterial drainage.

The response to the scheme has exceeded all expectations. At 30 June 1982 approximately 42,000 applications had been received. Over 22,000 schemes have been approved covering an area of 122,000 hectares at an estimated cost of £66 million with a grant equivalent of £46 million. Much will still remain to be done, but it is no small achievement to increase the area of productive land in the region by 150,000 hectares, with a resultant boost to farm incomes. I should like to congratulate everyone concerned and the farmers in particular who have availed in the past three or four years of this very worthwhile scheme.

I would like to turn now to the western package. The EEC Commission and the other member states have agreed that measures to promote development must tackle problems on a broad front and that is what the Programme for Western Development — the "Western Package"— sets out to do.

The programme will result in the injection into the region over ten years of about £300 million, roughly half of which will come from the EEC and half from the Exchequer. It covers a wide range of measures which I should perhaps mention.

The package seeks first to improve certain infrastructural facilities. The aim is to develop farm roads, water supplies and electricity. This will improve both the living conditions of farmers and the rural community. It will also give some farmers greater flexibility in their choice of enterprises. Grants of the order of £19 million have been allocated for private group water and certain public water schemes of which £8.5 million has already been paid. The expenditure on roads has been £4 million and £0.6 million has been spent on electricity measures.

Education and training are also covered by the package. To meet the growing demand for places at agricultural colleges and for farm training generally facilities are being expanded at five residential agricultural colleges and 22 additional farm training centres are being provided. A resouce development centre to be established in Athenry will, in addition to providing in-service training for advisers, also study and seek solutions for the problems facing the farming and rural populations of the western region. Expenditure to date exceeds 0.5 million.

Understandably a substantial part of the package is devoted to direct aids to farmers. Grants of 70 per cent are available for land improvement works which include schemes for commonage division, hill and mountain pasture improvement and lowland reclamation. These measures should increase the stock-carrying capacity of the land and will provide farmers with the opportunity of improving their incomes. There have issued 3,400 approvals representing £2.2 million in grants and £1.00 million in grants has been paid under these measures.

Higher grants are also available for farm buildings to those who are unable to get into the development category under the farm modernisation scheme and who can follow a farm improvement plan with the emphasis on the expansion of cattle and sheep numbers. These farmers can also qualify for a calf-to-beef interest subsidy to encourage them to carry their animals through to the finishing stage. These measures are only now becoming operational, having been held up due to industrial action.

Private forestry development on marginal land is also being encouraged and stimulated. Generous grants are available and a free advisory service is provided by the Forest and Wildlife service. This should in the long term result in substantial income increases for farmers from the sale of forest products. So far applications covering 1,000 hectares have been received.

We have also paid attention to the end product and agricultural marketing and processing has not been neglected. A sum of £14.2 million has been committed to 45 projects in the west of Ireland so far, of which £3.34 million has been paid in grants.

I am convinced that all these schemes, with the co-operation of all the interests involved, will make a big contribution to solving the structural problems of the west and improving the living and working conditions of farmers as well as making a worthwhile contribution to the economy as a whole.

Finally, I should like to refer to our fishing industry which, as I said at the outset, has been denied specific reference in the motion we are discussing.

Without going into great detail I should like to quote a few statistics to give the House an idea of the size of the activity of helping fishermen to acquire boats and to show how this activity has been expanding in recent years. During the period 1975 to 1981, 410 new vessels were added to the fleet, which last year contained a total of 1,957 motor vessels. More than 90 of these new vessels were more than 50 feet in length. In that seven-year period the number of vessels exceeding 75 gross registered tons nearly doubled, from 67 to 123. In the same period the amount of annual direct financial assistance given by BIM for the purchase of boats and gear has risen from £4.392 million and bank guarantees given by the board on behalf of fishermen to enable them to purchase larger vessels have risen from £610,388 to approximately £16.5 million. There is a growing interest among our fishermen in larger fishing vessels. In 1980 four new steel vessels in excess of 90 feet, to a total value of £8.58 million and 11 new vessels ranging in size from 64 to 90 feet to a total value of £9.6 million, joined the fleet. It is evident from these figures that even in these difficult times there is considerable confidence on the part of the fishermen in the industry and its future.

It is the Government's intention to do all in their power to ensure that not only is this confidence justified but that it will grow and be sustained in all aspects of the industry. Discussions have already taken place with the main organisations representative of the industry and it is intended after further discussions with these bodies and in consultation with BIM to produce a new fisheries development programme. In this programme particular emphasis will be placed on such important aspects of the industry as marketing, increased productivity and refurbishing of the existing fleet.

There are constraints in the development of the industry in the short term. In the immediate future emphasis will be on the encouragement of the modernisation of the existing fleet and on improved productivity. Increased efforts will be made by BIM in the marketing field and to that end quality standards will be introduced and enforced. Processing policy will be aimed at increasing the amount of added value on primary products which are at present being exported in semi-processed state.

Diversification of the fishing industry into white fishing and non-traditional species will be helped and encouraged by Bord Iascaigh Mhara and by the Department of Fisheries and Forestry. New marketing outlets will be sought. The expansion of marine aquaculture will be encouraged with technical advice and financial assistance and also training courses for those engaged in this activity will be arranged. The development of harbours which was stepped up during the seventies will be further continued in the years ahead.

On the EEC front the Fisheries Council is involved in trying to reach agreement on the outstanding elements of the common fisheries policy which involve critical issues for this country such as those of access and fishing quotas. Senators will know how vital a common policy is for us because, failing the establishment of such a policy, all member states would have the right to fish up to our beaches after the end of this year. I am confident that the Government will play their part in securing an agreement which will be in the best interests of the Irish and the Community fishing industry.

Semi-State bodies too, have played a major role in the development process that has taken place in the west. If we look at Bord na Móna, for example, the board have acquired 200,000 acres of bog nationwide. They produce about 4.9 million tonnes of turf which have an oil equivalent of 1 million tonnes and this saves the Exchequer £150 million per annum on oil imports. They employ, at peak periods, 7,000 workers and export horticultural peat worth approximately £12 million. So Bord na Móna make a major contribution to the development of rural Ireland.

If I come a little nearer home, in the Galway/Roscommon area the board have acquired 14,000 acres and drainage and development of this tract of bog is taking place at present. The private bog development scheme which was introduced a few years ago also has been a great success. I understand from the Department that applications have been flooding in to the board for the past year. This shows again that the people now realise the importance of developing our native peat and so reduce our dependency on oil. In the Ballyforan area of Roscommon/Galway the board have acquired 7,000 acres, 4,000 acres is in production and the balance of 3,000 acres is at present being developed. Indeed, the board are scheduled to acquire a further 1,500 acres in that area. I understand site clearance has started for the briquette factory at Ballyforan which, when completed, will employ 112 people and will have a capacity of 130,000 tonnes of peat per annum.

Therefore, we can see that there is scope for development in that area alone, that our native bogs can be developed, can create jobs for our young people, can help to stem the huge bill for oil imports that we have to pay out every year and, more important than anything, will help to create some jobs for the 160,000 people who have been affected so severely by the present world recession.

I should like also to welcome a new development that has taken place by a private company in my area — Gaelic Peat have decided to come in to take over 300 or 400 acres of bog in the Tuam/Dunmore area and have promised to create approximately 600 jobs in that area over the next few years. This is a very welcome development in an area that has suffered from high unemployment over the years. There is potential there for further development. I want to welcome this company into the area and I hope they will be successful and that they will give hope to the many young people who have been travelling the country seeking employment over the last couple of years.

The Sugar Company, Comhlucht Siúicre Éireann Teoranta, also have played a major role in the development of rural Ireland. Indeed, the company have been associated with my constituency for many years in their work at the Tuam factory and also in the Gowla bog area of Ballyforan. I was very happy in the past year or so to hear the Government give a full commitment to the continuation of beet processing at the Tuam factory. That constituted a very necessary boost not alone to the people who were employed in that factory and who had given a lifetime of service to the company but also to the business people of the whole area. I hope that the involvement of the Sugar Company in Tuam will grow steadily. Rather than disappearing, as some people might have us believe, I hope the operation of the company will be expanded there guaranteeing its future. I was very happy that the Government gave a commitment to the development of that factory. I hope it will grow from strength to strength.

The provision of employment at a wage which will provide an acceptable standard of living is the right of every person in the nation, men and women. At present, due to the very great numbers unemployed, it is clear that many people are being denied this basic right. In their next budget the Government will have to raise in the region of £500 million to £600 million in order to keep their current account at the level set. On the publication of the half-yearly returns in June 1982 the budget deficit stood at £692 million. The planned deficit set by the Government for the whole year was £679 million. Therefore, we see that the deficit planned for the full year had been exceeded already in June.

No less a person than the Taoiseach himself said that it is not possible to be completely accurate but there are now indications that the excess could be substantial. I do not know exactly what "substantial" is meant to mean. Some people have forecast that it will be in the region of £900 million. Others have gone so far as to say that it will be up to £1 billion. This deterioration, which will be reflected in the Exchequer returns, will most certainly mean that it will be necessary to impose very harsh and severe cutbacks in the Estimates now being prepared for 1983. I understand from an announcement by an official spokesman that the Cabinet have now begun to examine the Estimates against the background of the national economic plan which is due to be published within the next few weeks.

The purpose of this debate and the purpose for which the Seanad was recalled are stated in the motion which convened it and which reads:

That Seanad Éireann expresses its deep concern at the continuing economic and social crisis, the unprecedented level of unemployment and inequitable cutbacks in the social services and hereby calls on the Government to initiate proposals as a matter of urgency to deal with the grave implications of the serious deterioration in the country's economy.

This debate is not meant to be, nor should it be, an occasion for engaging in political debate or acrimony, or for the sake of gaining political advantage. Indeed, the position at present is far too serious to engage in such antics. I do not think I can be regarded as engaging in an attempt to score political points if I confine my remarks to statements and observations by independent observers or Government Ministers or other members of the Government party. It cannot be suggested that such people were trying to score points against the Government. I hope to be able to show on the one hand the disastrous state of the country and on the other the complete lack of any coherent plan to rescue it and to put it back on a sound footing. In some cases I detect grim determination by some Deputies supporting the Government at all costs to plan their own political survival irrespective of the effect it may have on the economic position. Such Deputies can be regarded as being concerned with their own fate only and could be described as "Mé Féiners". They have no interest in the state of the country.

The first quotation I will use is from Dr. Whitaker. Nobody could regard him as being partisan. He has been completely independent, a highly respected Member of this House on two occasions. He has been the choice of Taoiseachs in Fianna Fáil and Coalition Governments. His opinions have been highly regarded on all sides. Speaking at a conference of the Development and Studies Association on Friday, 24 September, he said:

There have been two tragic errors made in the last decade which have enormously aggravated Ireland's development problems. The first mistake was the decision in principle in 1972 to resort to borrowing for current budgetary purposes.

The second mistake he referred to was the irrational optimism of economic planning in 1977 introduced by the Fianna Fáil Government when they returned to power. When such a man makes such observations, bearing in mind his great experience in the political and economic situations, it is worth our while here to take special notice of him.

Even more startling are the observations of members of the Government party. I have a quotation from the Evening Herald of Tuesday, 14 September. The heading is “`Fed up' FF deputy hits out at Government blundering”. The report states:

Fianna Fáil T.D., William O'Dea, the hard-hitting barrister from Kilteely is "utterly and totally disillusioned" with the present lack of action on the part of the Government.

In an exclusive interview yesterday he said he was sick of the way so many of those in high places were doing everything possible in an effort to cover up "the terrible disregard there is for the plight of the nation."

And he made it clear he would not be a part of what is happening in government stating: "I'm going to have to consider very seriously whether or not I will stand for the Dáil again."

So, we cannot be blamed for lamenting or casting aspertions because of lack of action by the Government. My second quotation is from the Evening Herald of Friday, 17 September 1982. The heading refers to “FF rift grows as Niall Andrews rebukes Govt.” The report states:

The open divisions within Fianna Fáil have widened with accusations from a prominent backbencher that the Government's 1977 election manifesto contributed to the current "wartime economic situation."

Deputy Niall Andrews said the manifesto — masterminded by the present Education Minister Dr. Martin O'Donoghue — had raised people's expectations "beyond all reason."

I was at the meeting of the Eastern Health Board at which he spoke. We rejected the proposals of the Minister. I do not think we were alone because, if my memory serves me right, only one health board agreed to the Minister's proposals. All the others have rejected them. Even more alarming is a statement by a former Minister, a former EEC Commissioner, Deputy O'Kennedy. The Irish Independent of 28 September states in a heading “O'Kennedy raps CJ's `wastage”'. The report states:

The first broadside came from former EEC Commissioner, Mr. Michael O'Kennedy, now a Fianna Fáil backbencher, who hit out at Mr. Haughey's Government for its failure to channel aid into areas which would benefit the country most.

Mr. O'Kennedy was backed-up by former Minister for Agriculture in the Coalition, Mr. Alan Dukes.

Would you please give us the reference?

Tuesday, 28 September, the Irish Independent.

You would be lost without the Independent.

I read from the Herald and the Times.

What about The Irish Press?

I do not believe in "The truth in the news." The report I have just quoted also stated:

Meanwhile, in his first contentious speech since being excluded from the Cabinet by Mr. Haughey after the February general election, Mr. O'Kennedy criticised the Government's failure to spend wisely during the recession.

That was Michael O'Kennedy, a widely experienced man, a Deputy for many years. He was Commissioner in Europe and a Minister. I do not think we could look for a man with greater experience. I will give one other quotation from The Irish Times Monday, 27 September, 1982. The heading states “FF Deputies warn of Dáil revolt over boundary plan”. This illustrates my contention that some Members are more concerned with their own preservation politically rather than that of the State. The report states:

The Government has been warned by a number of its backbench deputies that the appointment of a Constituency Revision Commission, in advance of the Parliamentary Party meeting on October 6th, would be regarded as "extremely provocative" and could lead to a Dáil defeat.

The report referred to Deputy O'Dea of Limerick East and it stated——

The Senator has not given a quotation from Deputy Oliver Flanagan.

I could give a quotation from a Minister who agreed with him.

That was in The Irish Press.

On 14 September Deputy O'Dea was reported as having said that he would have to consider very seriously whether he will stand for the Dáil again. He seems to have changed his mind because he was reported on Monday, 27 September, as saying that not alone would he be standing but he was very determined to see that the proper boundaries were drawn to ensure his election. There we see illustrated the concern of those people for the welfare of the State. I could get many more such statements and could go on for much longer. But I do not think that it is in any way necessary to continue any further than this.

It is not enough just to make those statements and to be critical of the Government. It behoves us to try to make some suggestions as to what the Government might do. In this connection I will put forward a couple of suggestions which might be helpful. The first one I feel is that the Government should give a very high priority to the reform of the public services. In 1969 the Devlin Report asked the Government to introduce legislation to enforce such reform. I must agree that both Governments since — even the Coalition Governments — have done practically nothing in implementing this although the report was accepted and agreed on by the Government of the day. They felt that they would be satisfied with the reform of the public service by persuasion rather than by legislation.

It is evident that reform by persuasion has been a failure. The scheme laid out the ideas — No. 1, to encourage civil servants to move temporarily to positions outside their own Departments and indeed to positions in outside agencies in order to gain additional experience which would be of value to them. This has not been a success due to the fact that up to this date — I am informed from figures available — only 23 officials in the entire public service, 11 of those from the one Department, have moved to outside or other Departments. It is clear that mobility by persuasion has not been a success.

The second idea was to establish an Aireacht, and executive units in the Department, the Aireacht to be responsible for policy-making and the Executive for its implementation. This was to save the Minister a lot of worry and time, time which could be more usefully devoted to other sections of his Department. Progress with the establishment of an Aireacht has been bad: it has not been established at all in ten of the Departments.

The third suggestion was that there should be open competition for senior civil service posts rather than the closed competition which confines competition at the moment to a few in each Department. Again that has been almost completely blocked. Effectively it is still only confined to a few people in the Department. I regard this as a pity when one thinks that 26 per cent of the present work force are in the public service whereas there was only 16 per cent in 1960. When we agree that the public serive is responsible for more than half of all State expenditure it is a pity that reform by persuasion has not been a success. It is vitally necessary to have reform by legislation.

Another point which might be helpful would be if the Government could realise the foolishness of their implementation of VAT at point of entry. They did this for the sole purpose of a once-off gain. In actual fact it is doubtful whether it is a gain because it leads to extra costs and it definitely leads to unemployment because firms are unable to pay VAT at point of entry. The Government did offer a scheme through the ICC to allow firms to get loans to pay the VAT. But this is useless because most of the firms are already up to their necks in borrowing. They are up as far as they can go and to offer them increased borrowing is useless because they would be unable to avail of it. Again, it adds to the unemployment costs and if more people become unemployed the Government lose any tax that might be payable by those people if they were in employment. It also means that extra staff have to be engaged. It has been admitted that extra permanent staff have to be engaged by the Revenue Commissioners to administer this. When you add to the fact of people becoming unemployed the amount of money that has to be paid out in unemployment, the reduction in tax that will ensue and the additional cost in the Revenue Commissioners' office, it is doubtful if there will be very much gain even on a once-off basis. It would also lead to a smaller range of spare parts for any machinery being available since no firm will be able to carry a full stock. It will add greatly to the difficulty of these firms.

A third suggestion may not concern big firms but I am informed that the Revenue Commissioners insist on audited accounts from everybody for tax purposes. In some cases small businessmen and even small farmers have to engage accountants to audit their books. Very often it is to prove that they did not make any profit. Indeed, there have been cases where it has been done to prove that they lost money. So they had to pay to show that they lost money. In such cases it should not be beyond the capability of the Revenue Commissioners to devise some simple form that those small businesses could use to submit their accounts. The Revenue Commissioners would have a fair idea of the position in the case of traders in the one area dealing in the one business roughly on the same scale. These would be expected to have a more or less uniform pattern. In cases where there was a serious deviation from the uniform pattern then further investigation could be carried out. It should not be necessary to put all firms and all small businesses to the expense of possibly going into debt to prove that in the first instance they did not make any money, that in fact they had suffered a loss.

These are just a few suggestions which I propose. While they might not add a lot to the overall economy, at least they would provide some incentive and some encouragement. What might prove very small in some circles might prove a boon to most of those small firms which are existing on a day-to-day basis, a hand-to-mouth basis.

While he was speaking Senator Smith compared the country to a patient who was ill. He said it was necessary that the correct medicine should be administered. The country has been in a serious situation and seriously ill for quite some time. When Deputy FitzGerald was in Opposition he diagnosed the illness of the State, but he was laughed at by those in Government and told he was trying to create a scare. In fact, Government speakers said he was preaching the policy of doom and gloom, that he was endangering the credibility of the nation abroad, and that there was no need for it. On assuming office, and when he had a better chance to examine the patient fully, Deputy FitzGerald found that not alone was his diagnosis right but that he had even under-estimated the seriousness of the situation. He did not hesitate to take the necessary measures to try to correct the position. The Opposition did not agree with him but everybody is agreed now about the seriousness of the situation.

The Minister for Finance said there was no such thing as doom and gloom but rather there was boom and bloom. I do not think anybody listening to the statements emanating from the Government party will now describe our situation as boom and bloom. We are all agreed that at present most speeches, unfortunately, have to be on the line of doom and gloom. Deputy FitzGerald was correct and he diagnosed the problem before the Government realised the seriousness of the situation. Deputy FitzGerald was determined to take the necessary steps. I hope that even at this late hour the Government will realise their failure and will take positive steps to bring about a recovery. I hope they will co-operate with the Opposition instead of blaming them. They should accept that the suggestions they have put forward represent a sincere and genuine effort for the good of the nation and the benefit of all our people.

I should like to congratulate Senator Belton on his fine speech. If he ever gets bored with politics he may well get a position on the morning radio programme, `It Says in the Papers', because he treated us to a fine selective rundown on items that appeared in the press in recent weeks.

I should like to deal with a number of the points mentioned by previous speakers, particularly those mentioned by the proposer and seconder of the motion. By and large, I agree with most of what Senator Ross said. He was right when he said that as a country we are going to have to accept a lower standard of living and that middle-income groups are going to have to pay for services they have not had to pay for in the past. I have no doubt, with the leadership the Government are at present giving to the country, that there will be a positive response from all income groups and that the people will rally behind the Government in the courses of action they have embarked upon.

However, there was one item in Senator Ross's speech that I took grave exception to. Any Member of this House should have been concerned when he said that the International Monetary Fund should be called in to help us solve our problems. He cited the fact that our credit rating in the financial market had dropped from eighth place to twelfth place but he neglected to mention that in the list of countries and major corporations that there are about 150 countries. Considering the difficulties Western Europe, and the Western world are experiencing, the fact that we have maintained our position in the top dozen countries as regards creditworthiness is no mean feat. It behoves us to make it clear that we do not need or want the International Monetary Fund to come in to help us solve our problems and difficulties. This morning in his very fine address to the House, the Taoiseach stressed the underlying strength of the economy and pointed to the fact that since we joined the EMS in 1979 we have succeeded in maintaining the stability of our currency within that system and that we are fully confident of our ability to continue to do so.

It is important to stress that we as a nation have the ability, and the self-confidence in our ability, to get ourselves out of whatever temporary difficulties we are facing. We do not require this sort of assistance. The International Monetary Fund have plenty to be going on with in trying to deal with the problems of Mexico, Poland and Argentina. They have enough on their plate and I am sure we can spare them this trouble and time and solve our own problems. It is essential that that should go out from this House. Damage has been done to our reputation in financial markets throughout the world by too much of this self-denigration or running down our abilities. If we face up to our problems, and resolve to support the Government in their present course of action we can get out of this problem without help from anybody else.

Another matter mentioned by several speakers was the question of unemployment and the high level at which unemployment is running in the State at present. As Senators we should look at this problem and not try to produce glib answers that will get a quick headline or come up with solutions, or apparent solutions, to problems that will raise the hopes of young people. There is a fundamental problem that Western economies have to face. It was mentioned yesterday by the proposer of the motion and this morning by the Taoiseach in his speech. I am referring to this whole question of the changing face of industry and the type of industry that is prospering in Western countries, and the type of industries that are in decline. The textile industry in five years time will be totally concentrated in south-east Asia. Heavy engineering, shipbuilding, and all those industries will no longer operate in Western Europe, in Ireland, Britain or on the Continent.

Costs are such now that it is more economic for these industries to operate in south-east Asian countries. In future the African nations will be in competition for this type of industry. The industries that we will have to develop from our own resources and attempt to attract into this country are those based on the computer, the microchip and the communications business. These are industries which are ideally suited for the type of young, well-educated people we have leaving our schools, colleges and universities. Another area where there is great scope for development is in providing financial services. This is something the IDA should seriously consider and attempt to develop.

We have a very well-educated young population. In the age profile 17-18 we have 62 per cent of our young people attending secondary schools and colleges. The banking and financial services industry is one which is ideally suited to the products of these institutions. We have several advantages in this area and it is something we should exploit and develop. But there is no good in our bringing in industries which are only marginal and when the first winds of depression or trouble in the world blow they are the first to be closed. We should be talking in terms of attracting businesses and industries which are prepared to locate their research and development sections and their marketing and sales divisions here. In that way they will have a stake in and a more deeply rooted commitment to this country.

It is important that when the IDA are negotiating on our behalf with multinational corporations — American, British, German and so on — they should sell this idea of having a high research and development content based in this country or a high marketing and selling content based here.

Senator Murphy's speech yesterday was very interesting. It painted a picture of a type of society I would not like to live in. He spoke about nationalising the banking institutions, taking over land, farms and making this country similar to those in eastern Europe. I would not be very happy living in that kind of society. I wish Senator Murphy a lot of luck if he goes out among the small farmers in Mac-room and north-west Cork and tries to tell them that they should hand their land over to the State and that this is in their best interests in the long run. He is totally ignoring the fact that in eastern Europe this type of nationalisation has failed. From my own business experience, where I have a lot of contact with the Polish argi-business, it has not worked. The farmers, far from co-operating with the State in their ventures, are trying to sell their produce on their own black market system to get some sort of a decent price for their produce. There is no point in saying that because we are experiencing temporary difficulties at present the solution is to nationalise everything in sight and that this will make it much more efficient. I do not believe for one moment that is so. I do not believe that the socialist path is the one we should follow.

It is interesting that Senator Murphy spoke about the Land League taking a wrong turn. It seems to be a strange comment from a historian. The people who supported Davitt and the Land League leaders at the time were not terribly interested in political philosophy. All they wanted was land so that they could live in some comfort with their families. If Senator Murphy took his policy into the highways and byways of rural Ireland and tried to sell it at Macra na Feirme meetings, I would be interested to see what sort of response he would get.

Of course in the sort of society he envisages there could be a very interesting film industry developed. We could have the sort of tunes that come from the Soviet Union, the heroic young sons of the land and the beautiful young maidens having romances on the sides of tractors and combine harvesters. That sort of thing would develop from that type of society. It might provide a certain amount of marginal employment.

It is important to stress — and the Taoiseach alluded to this this morning — that the public sector negotiations are taking place at present, how important they are and the fact that the Minister for the Public Service, the public service and the Public Service Committee of the Irish Congress of Trade Unions are working hand-in-hand to arrive at an agreement. It is important to stress that we are not anti-worker or anti-union. What the Government are doing at present has to be done. The trade unions understand that. We as a party represent more trade unionists than any other party in this State. More trade unionists vote for Fianna Fáil than for any other party. This has been the way since the twenties and thirties. We are concerned to protect the living standards of workers. Any notion that might be abroad that Fianna Fáil are in any way anti-worker or anti-union is just not true. The Government have always had excellent relations with the trade union movement. This is something that will continue and will develop in the future, particularly over the next few very critical weeks.

The Taoiseach this morning made a speech which will give heart to the people. They were becoming dispirited with all this talk of depression, lay-offs and strikes. He painted a picture which shows that when we are through our present difficulties the future is a good one. But for the moment all of us, no matter what income group, background or profession we belong to, must make some small sacrifices now and support the Government in their actions. It is interesting that Senator Belton was asking the Government to support the Opposition. I think the case should be the reverse. We should ask the Opposition to support the Government in their programme and thus enable us to arrive at a bright and better future.

By having this debate the Seanad is doing its job but how well it does it or is able to do it is for others to judge. I welcome very much the initiative taken to recall the House. However, if we meant even half of what we have been saying in the past two days about the extent and the urgency of the present crisis, we would be lacking in responsibility if we went home this weekend and let that be the end of it.

The Seanad is not just a debating Chamber. It is not like a debating society in one of the colleges or a private club whose members come together. It is a forum for elected representatives to come together and, in this case, to come together on the initiative of 30 Members of the House, to analyse and discuss ways and means of coping with the very serious and deep economic and social problems we face. It would be a most inadequate, and in a sense old-fashioned and outdated response for the Seanad to meet, to have a two-day debate and then for the Members to go home. That would reinforce the criticism sometimes made of this House that it has failed to adapt, to come into the 20th century and to evolve the proper structures and powers to enable it to discharge its responsibilities.

We are not without the possibility of creating an acceptable and useful follow-up to this debate because in its Standing Orders the Seanad has the power to establish a number of select committees in key areas, to examine and to report back to the House within a fixed period. Standing Order No. 60 provides that:

The Seanad may, on motion made, appoint a Select Committee to consider any Bill or matter and to report its opinion for the information and assistance of the Seanad....

Under Standing Order No. 61 a select committee is given wide and important powers. That Standing Order provides that:

A Select Committee, empowered to send for persons, papers and records, may report its opinions and observations together with the minutes of evidence (if any) taken before it, to the Seanad, and may also make a special report of any matters which it may think fit to bring to the notice of the Seanad.

In other words, the Seanad has the capacity to set up very powerful and penetrating select or special committees. It can give those committees precise and relevant terms of reference on the matter the Seanad wants them to examine, it can give them a time-scale within which to do it and it can arrange when the select committee reports back that time be given to consider the report of the committee.

The Seanad is also enabled to have a whole series of mini-debates or discussions of the kind we have had in a general, global way in the past two days on specific and precise aspects of a problem. In many ways I think that would be much more useful. The problem with a general global debate of this kind is that it becomes diffused. Each Senator has only 30 minutes to contribute. We have to pick and choose and try to emphasise aspects of the problem which we consider particularly important or acute. We need to structure the way we are going to analyse and assess the problems and the degree of crisis. We need continuity and we also need the capacity to look for the expertise of individuals and to look for reports and papers that would inform and help the members on this select committee to come to a more considered view.

Under the existing Standing Orders of the House it would be quite feasible to establish a number of select committees. The next step is to consider how many committees and the capacity of the House to serve on them. We have a membership of 60, one of the Members being the Cathaoirleach. If there is a full commitment by Members of this House which matches their words of urgency in describing the crisis, it should be possible, without too much difficulty, to establish at least five select committees to sit two days a week between now and Christmas and to examine in detail each of a number of key areas.

I think Members should have an opportunity to reflect on this and I hope they will give it a positive response. I suggest that select committees should be established in the following key areas: education, health and social welfare, agriculture, economic development and employment and marriage and family law reform. I should like to make another suggestion about the terms of reference and the remit of such select committees. The Seanad should emphasise an awareness, which I think a number of Senators have and which they have expressed, that we are not isolated on this part of the island, that the kind of problems and the economic and social crisis affecting us pervade the whole island and that in many areas the island, although politically divided, is a single island in relation to economic and social problems or even the resources that could be developed to meet those challenges.

Not only should the select committees examine the areas I have suggested, the terms of reference should ask a select committee to examine the problems in a comparative context. They should be asked to look not only at the position in this part of the country but to compare and look to the experience in Northern Ireland, to identify the kind and range of problems there and to identify certain programmes or steps taken there that might be helpful. All in all, the select committees should report on the existing situation and make recommendations relevant to both parts of the island. I think this is quite feasible without any undue encroachment on the jurisdiction in Northern Ireland. It is a perfectly valid way of addressing ourselves as a representative Chamber to the kind of problems and the way we would like to see them assessed and reported on. This is not claiming any practical or instant jurisdiction over Northern Ireland. Probably in many instances it would be a learning experience, becoming more aware and in many cases benefiting from knowing about some things that may be done in relation to a certain area. For example, I am thinking of the area of marriage law and family reform. We might also consider what has taken place in Northern Ireland in relation to agriculture, to developments in youth employment and so on. We have much to learn but we can only learn if we are prepared to inform ourselves and to include that dimension as part of the remit of the select committees.

A willingness to develop the Seanad into a relevant forum will be part of our credibility. The Seanad has decided to come into the limelight at the moment by having this debate but coming into the limelight risks exposing us to a very critical appraisal. It is like the old story of the emperor and whether he had any clothes. If the Seanad only debates and then goes home with the possible promise as contained in the speech of the Taoiseach this morning that there may be a further debate on the Government's plan when published, that is not at all enough to justify either the words of seriousness used by individual Members of the House or the very legitimate and reasonable expectation of people who see their elected representatives in an expensive and elaborate forum with a written record coming together for the purpose of examining the problems. We have a credibility problem in this House and if we walk away from it then we will be confirming some of the very deep suspicions and growing cynicism of people about the preparedness of politicians to assume real responsibility and to have continuity and follow-through.

Another reason why the Seanad should and indeed must take this kind of initiative and create a structured continuous approach to examining the kind of problems that have been aired in this House in the last 48 hours is the present political situation in the other House. I do not need to develop this at any length. As Senator Ryan said earlier, we are, most of us, fairly professional politicians. We are aware that the other House, because of the recent elections and the lack of an overall majority for any party, suffers from a particular vulnerability and insecurity, and that is a worry for this nation now with the depths and range of problems we have. For Deputies there is an understandable and a very real concern to spend as much time as possible in their constituencies to prepare for the possibility of a sudden or snap election. That must take away from some of the power and capacity of the other House to address itself in detail in a committee format to the kind of problems that we have been airing but not really coming to grips with in this debate.

It is understandable that Members of the Dáil, who already have a heavier legislative burden than we have, would be reluctant to establish a new type of select committee system. We do not have the same kind of burden or the same commitment of our time either in the Seanad or on the whole at constituency level as have Members of the other House. We have a sufficient membership from which to draw in establishing the committees along the lines I have suggested.

Our concern must be to ensure that the initiative taken to recall this House and, therefore, to bring it into the limelight as a chamber discussing the very deep and urgent social and economic problems facing this country, will not just fizzle out at this point. The essential role of the Seanad is to be a forum of record in which views are not just expressed as they are in an individual or private capacity but are expressed as those of elected representatives or nominees to this House who know that even in five, ten or 20 years time what was said will be on the record, and where there is a possibility of bringing into a debate of that kind representatives of the Government and, as on this morning, the Taoiseach of the time. However, it is more than that. The Seanad is a forum which must explore in its own composition the way in which it can genuinely address itself to making some significant contribution to analysing, assessing, in some instances identifying and coming to balancing recommendations on the economic and social problems that have been discussed.

I have listened, as other Senators have, to the contributions in this debate and was struck, as other Senators have said they were, by the variety of views expressed. There is nothing wrong with that variety. We do not have enough variety in the sense of real ideological politics. We have not enough political philosophy in our approach to debates on our current economic and social problems. Unless we structure and create a framework for further discussion, exactly the same views as we have heard yesterday and today will be rehearsed and aired again by the same people when we come to discuss the Government's Economic Plan and nothing really will have been achieved.

There is no doubt that the debate highlighted the need for an examination and basic assessment of the situation facing this country. I agree very much with those who have emphasised from the beginning that this debate is not just about the figures and statistics of an economy. Essentially it is about taking stock of ourselves as a people at the beginning of October 1982. It involves standing back a little and assessing the basic structures, values, assumptions and resources of our society. I was impressed by the number of Senators on both sides of the House who either expressly or implicitly declared an awareness of the need to do that. We have at least reached the stage when our perception is much more focused on the degree and nature of the problems than it was six months or a year ago. For that reason, I was disappointed listening to the contribution by the Taoiseach because when he outlined his perception of the position and the general, perhaps understandably still vague approach which will be adopted in the forthcoming Economic Plan I was struck by how outdated, unconvincing and cliché-ridden it all sounded. It could have been said, and perhaps should have been said more forcefully at any time since 1977. It was an analysis and a perception which was not prepared to go any deeper than admitting that some more severe measures or cuts must be made in the present situation and implying that nothing else really needs to change and we are hoping for an economic upswing in the near future. In other words, it would appear that the Taoiseach, and therefore this Government, wants to muddle along much the same path with a few necessary and obviously severe cuts to prevent a total collapse or a run on the Irish pound or some other undesirable outcome.

It was very clear from the Taoiseach's contribution that he was not going to ask, and did not ask, and therefore obviously he did not attempt to answer the fundamental question which is at the bottom of this whole debate. Why is this island, which is still underpopulated and so rich in natural and physical resources, apparently unable to feed, clothe, employ, house and educate its people to a decent and a fair standard of living? Why have we got it so wrong? Can we not admit that we have got it so wrong? The fault does not lie with a lack of resources. That was clearly brought out by Senators on both sides of the House. We have very substantial resources. We are a rich country, privileged to have the wealth and extent of resources that we have, particularly in our land and in our fisheries and in the potential of this island to develop a tourism industry which reflects its unique and to others incredibly interesting historic, architectural and physical development.

So the fault does not lie with a lack of resources. The fault lies with the development and management of those resources. That is the major disappointment, as far as I am concerned, with the contribution by the Taoiseach. He did not seem aware of a strong case for a very different development and management of our resources. He seems prepared to approach the problem on a pragmatic basis and face, with his chin set firmly, the possibility of cutbacks, reductions in Government expenditure and some disappointing news for those employed and those dependent on our social welfare system over the next few years. In other words, it was still a case of palliatives and tinkering with the possibility just to gain some political kudos of more strokes and stunts.

That approach is just not reflected in the contributions from either side of the House during this debate. They have highlighted — and rightly highlighted — the totally changed context in which we find ourselves in 1982 from even the context at the very start of the seventies. From 1926 to 1970 our population did not go above three million people. Since then it has grown by almost half a million on the recently published 1981 census figures. We pay lip service to the resource and our pleasure in this young population and yet we do not seem to have the capacity to make the radical adjustments that will be necessary even to perceive the nature of the changes we are going to have to make, and perhaps be forced to make, in the whole structure and system, development of our resources, distribution of wealth and so on.

I am very interested to see the extent to which media commentators, including journalists who have written about this proposed debate, have hoped that it would not lead to the airing of political ideology. This is not what we need; we need some sort of national consensus or national approach to the problems. Again, I would adopt a very different approach. We need the identification of the approaches, ideologies and political philosophies which will point up the differences. It is time that more of us stood up and expressed the need for a very different kind of approach. Here I would, for the purpose of saving time and using a short note in my contribution, align myself with the seconder of this motion, Senator Murphy, and with Senator Brendan Ryan in believing that we must go much further in devising a radical alternative approach to the problems facing us.

I hope this political debate will go on much more clearly because Ireland has been deprived of proper ideological politics for the last 50 years, and we have suffered from it. I hope that we will get that fully on the ground and even from groups and bodies who are sceptical of and cynical about the present composition of the political parties and the present political structure. I hope that we can win, and learn from, these groups in order to provide a genuine and much more radical alternative at a political level. But in the meantime, and perhaps as a way of clarifying some of these concepts and moving to that stage, we must examine in much more depth what is actually happening. Therefore, the Seanad could contribute and that is what we are talking about. We are not talking about solving the problems of the country in 48 hours. We are talking of what contributions this House can make.

The Seanad could make a significant contribution under the kind of headings that I have outlined. I will briefly deal with them in order to illustrate this. If the Seanad established a select committee on education, that committee could be given terms of reference including the overall terms of reference of looking at the situation in each of these areas in a Northern Ireland context of what is happening there. It would have an opportunity of looking at the funding of education, at pre-school, primary, second and third levels, the areas of inequity and deprivation, the very clear evidence that one's access to second and third level may well depend on one's geographical location as well as on the income of one's family and very important continuing and adult education. It could look at the funding, at the allocation of resources, at the possibility of participation in these levels.

If we are talking about cuts in education we at least know where we should make these cuts if we have any sense of fairness and social justice and also where we should not make cuts, but expand even under present stringent circumstances. It would also enable the Seanad to become aware of the turmoil already in the field of education. For example, as a member of the City of Dublin VEC, I have been aware, at urgent meetings which have taken place and individually from telephone calls that I have received and from the position in various vocational schools around Dublin, of a critical problem for those school which may mean the closure of the schools and third level colleges. This is an appalling problem for the teachers and students involved. It is a problem of basic hygiene, of blocked lavatories, of food rotting in waste baskets and how does it arrive? It arrives because of a relativity dispute where the manual workers in the VEC have a recognised and supported claim to the VEC of relativity with Dublin Corporation workers who got the £7.50 a week. Why have the VEC workers not got it? Because of an artificial, harsh, unfair and inequitable embargo which has caused so much internal injustice.

That is not to say that there is not strong argument on the merits of restraint on pay — that is a different thing. But the inequity and clumsiness of the steps taken in that one area have caused enormous hardship in the most deprived areas, in relation to the most deprived schools and has put an enormous strain on lecturers and pupils involved, a strain that may be too much over the next few days. That is not an abstraction, it is something that is very real in Coolock, Ringsend, Crumlin and other schools around the city. The committee could look at the way in which we allocate these resources, could look at some of the things that Senator Barnes was talking about, the emphasis placed on various kinds of education and the way in which we have structured in particular secondary education.

An Leas-Chathaoirleach

The Senator has two minutes to conclude.

Similarly, a select committee on health and social welfare could look at the way in which resources are allocated, could examine in much more detail some of the problems that are arising, could look at some of the extraordinary difficulties that are already being encountered in essential medical services, could listen to some of the apprehension by doctors and nurses of possible death or serious illnesses, could listen to the mothers of mentally handicapped children about how the cuts are affecting them and out of that capacity to listen to people carve out an equitable way of distributing and taking decisions on the budget in that area. Similarly in a different perspective in the area of agriculture it would enable the select committee to examine the possibility for development in agriculture along the lines of a number of suggestions made in this House.

In the area of unemployment above all, of economic development in employment, a select committee of the Seanad could actually listen to the unemployed, listen to young people, let them come in and tell us what their views are of how we should develop concepts of work and employment which will give a fairer distribution to them and to our society of our resources.

Finally, I would make a very strong plea for a select committee on marriage and family law reform, because this crisis is not just an economic crisis; it is also a legal and social crisis and a good many of our laws and parts of our Constitution oppress and impinge on individuals, and politicians do not want to know about it. We need a select committee to which people can come and explain the degree of oppression, discrimination and harshness of some of our laws. If that perception were communicated to Senators, and if the Senators were made aware of it and asked to report on it, and report very usefully in the context of what was happening in parallel circumstances in Northern Ireland, we would have very useful recommendations for urgent action in this area also.

I commend the three Senators who put their names to the initial motion and started the process of collecting signatures for the recall of the House.

Senator Robinson, sorry to interrupt you, but I think your half hour is up.

Thank you. I will finish in a sentence. The initiative was a novel one, but it has the possibility of fizzling out and creating disappointment and disenchantment. We have the capacity, under our existing Standing Orders, to structure it and create a longer term and much more developed process of examining these problems which have been aired today.

We listened today — and I am sure the Government Ministers concerned will have taken note of it — to Senator Brendan Ryan's contribution as to how this country might mobilise more money and make it available to meet the needs of the people. We listened to Senator Mary Robinson indicating how we might mobilise the political process more effectively, particularly as it affects this House. I hope in the time available to complement those two contributions by indicating what I feel is as important and perhaps even more important, that is, how we should mobilise the people of Ireland to meet the crucial needs of this time.

We must give credit to this Government for bringing us up with a jolt to face these great issues. Because we have been jolted into a situation which makes us face reality rather than continue in a sort of cloud cuckooland, we are now engaging in the political process, looking for new ways forward, and hopefully trying to involve the people.

Senator Ross is to be congratulated first of all on doing the lion's share of the work in recalling us and, secondly, and perhaps more importantly, on attempting to strike a tone at the start of this debate which would set acrimony to one side. Since coming here, and for a number of years looking at the comparative so-called peace in the Republic compared with the strife we have had to suffer for so long in the North, I have been appalled at the way in which the long knives are ever ready to be put into our respective leaders in processes of character assassination which can do this country no good inside or, even worse, outside and beyond its shores.

Criticism is of the essence of democracy and freedom, but when criticism goes over the top and attempts to denigrate leaders and public figures by bringing up skeletons of the past, skeletons which we have all got in our cupboards if we look into them, then it is time to cry "enough". In the context of this debate and the new start which many people are seeking, let us face the future aware of the past, but let us try to get what is constructive and positive out of our leaders and politicians and our people.

This denigrating tendency in Ireland derives from the unhealed, unresolved splits in consciousness: the Loyalist — Republican split, the Protestant — Catholic split, the British — Irish split. Worse still, those splits obscure the slopes and steps of status and class consciousness in today's Ireland. Perhaps these slopes and steps of class consciousness which have evolved, and were not anticipated by the fathers of the State, are in some way related to the way in which increments in wages and income are always related to percentages. As long as they are related to percentages, the lower paid person will continue to be comparatively badly off, and increasingly so compared with the people at the top. We have a great need in this country for healing, not just between North and South, but across the deep divide which you all attempt to obscure in the South as well.

When Senator Ross delivered his speech yesterday, I nearly fell off my chair when I heard him alude to the need to bring in the IMF. Quite frankly I would not be here if I thought the answer to Ireland's problems was to bring in the IMF. Surely what we need is not the bringing in of more help from outside, but the mobilisation of the great resource we have inside, that is the resourcefulness of our people.

Senator Flor Crowley talked about our country and said we should govern our country. Ireland is our land but who are we? "We" should not refer to the property owners but to the people. I will come back to that subject later. I criticise Senator John A. Murphy's concept of nationalising all land, not that I have not espoused such an idea in the past, but because I have come to believe that such a philosophy will create another split between the heart of the land and the spirit of the people. What we have got to address ourselves to is the right of every citizen in Ireland to a stake in the land. At present there are far too many people living in high rise multi-storied filing cabinets without a blade of grass in which to grow anything, without a workshop in which to create anything, with no opportunity and nothing to look forward to but the weekly dole queue.

Recently in Derry I visited the Maydown Industrial Estate Workshop, presently run by Mr. Glenn Barr. I have also had a considerable interest, as indeed one or two Members of this House have had, in the Derry Community Workshop run on the other side of the river. They are both run from totally different philosophies but they are both dealing with the great problem of this time — the need to give youth hope. One youngster in the Maydown Industrial Estate Workshop said to me: "We have had a great year here, but what do we face when we go out?" I asked: "Is there any possibility that a number of you could get together and think about mobilising your own enterprise and setting up in a small way to do odd jobs around Derry?" He seemed quite abashed at this as he did not believe sufficiently in himself or in his group. He did not think that the resources would be available in the State to give him the support he needed to get started or to sustain him. That is one example of a boy who wants to work.

On the other side of the river we have the interesting experiment in autonomy, where Mr. Paddy Doherty has tried to give people in that workshop an idea that they can govern their own destiny, that they can develop themselves, and that they have a right to take the workshop in the direction they choose, and not the direction decided for them by outside forces. In these two concepts there are questions to be asked about our future and there are some answers to be found.

I would concur with what Senator Robinson said — that if the North has much to learn from the Republic, and I have learned much about life and living since coming among you, you have also got much to learn from us and I would hope that perhaps one of the select committees which she has proposed might in fact be a select committee dealing with the differences and dealing with the complementariness of North and South. We have to consider if rationalisation of resources has not become an obsession, a panacea, when in fact we should be focusing on the liberation of resourcefulness. We have to re-think the great fundamental statement of western liberal thought, that all men are born equal. In a day of high centralisation, in a day when centralism runs rampant, whether it is the ideology of the State, the imperialism of our institutions, the bureaucracy or whatever, all men are born equal has unfortunately come to mean that all men should have an equal opportunity to be the same when in fact to meet the needs of today that surely should be redefined as all men should have the same opportunity to be different: all men unique, all men with opportunity, all part of the same humanity.

How then do we find, develop and liberate the inheritance which is unique to each one of us? This comes into the realm of education, again a topic for the select committee proposed by Senator Robinson. Above all else while politicians will have their select committees the people need their think-tanks. We need to have think-tanks at regional, at county and at district levels.

We live in an era of the most rapid change man has ever known and the human adaptive mechanisms, the built-in self-protective mechanisms which have been evolved through the millenia are put to the utmost of stress and we are barely able to cope. It is a fact of life that in regard to change which is imposed upon us by people remote from us we have little capacity to cope constructively and positively whereas if that change emanates from within ourselves we have an almost unlimited capacity to cope, but the trouble is that if it emanates entirely from within ourselves we become isolated, we are not part of a policy. So that in rejecting the dependence on others I do not seek to have it replaced by the independence of isolation. Rather should we not espouse a new philosophy of interdependence, of being in control of our own interdependence — ourselves with others rather than ourselves alone.

In this respect I think Senators and the Government should consider in the years to come whether there is not some place and some relevance for what I have referred to in the past as concentric politics rather than parametral politics. We have parametral politics where the decisions are taken at the top and are received at the bottom. Where need is dictated by the central institutions, the central power houses of the State decide what the need of the people is rather than asking the people in the community to define what their need is and getting the central institutions to respond to that need. In fact I see the new style of centre as the axle of a wheel rather than the apex of a pyramid relating in two directions to the periphery and seeking, as I say, to serve rather than to dictate. During the course of this debate mention has been made of the co-operative movement. I have not heard all the Senators who spoke but I have heard little mention of the community movement, the ecology movement, the anti-nuclear movement or the whole Fourth World concept which in European terms is challenging the centralism of Brussels.

What all these movements have in common is that they make, first, the distinction between decentralisation and autonomy. Decentralisation is a term used by centralists who wish to hold on to as much as they can but allowing enough out to keep the natives happy. Autonomy on the other hand is taking back, back to ourselves, back to the regions, responsibility and accountability for our own affairs to generate our own new health and enterprise and to establish a much greater sense of self-esteem in the process.

Any man who looks down a microscope cannot fail to be impressed with three things, at least so it seems to me, because as you look down and you look at that cellular pattern, that perfect order, you see variety, you see closenesss and you see energy exchange. What do we have in our society today? Instead of variety we have uniformity. Instead of closeness we have remoteness. Instead of exchange we have control and finally to summarise it all, instead of liberation we have domination. The great theme of this time is how we are to liberate the people to have a new sense of their own esteem, a new sense of what they can do for themselves. That can be done if we recognise that at a time when it is necessary to take fresh stock of the housekeeping we also do as our mothers would have done, realise that the child who has to live in that house needs care and needs freedom to develop. What is being taken away must therefore be given back in trust. Anyone who has tried an experiment in trust knows that he will be disappointed 10 per cent of the time. But is it not better to be let down 10 per cent of the time and trust people rather than forever be trying to legislate for them in terms of rules, regulations, memoranda and tons of paper which we get through our letter boxes, and which none of us ever reads, as a means of establishing that at least you got it down on paper when in fact what we want is to restore the human factor to our society?

In relation to the present cutbacks and in relation to deficit financing I can understand Senator O'Mahony saying that deficit financing has a place in meeting crucial needs. But I would remind Senators of that great verse in the Psalms of David which can be related to the whole problem of western debit financing: "He that putteth not out his money to usury nor taketh reward against the innocent... he that doeth these things shall never be moved." When we talk then of good housekeepers we are talking about, first and foremost, the basic standard for survival, for warmth, for food, for shelter, for education. We must remember that through the last two or three decades we have created a conflict in the minds of the people, a conflict of expectation because through education, communication, consumerism, new mobility and new technology we have kindled expectations for a great number of things which are at least satisfying our comforts and perhaps more likely may well be luxuries in terms of basic needs.

In relation to these basic needs do not let us forget that when we talk about all men having the same opportunity to be different, a man who has not food in his belly is not interested in philosophy, he is interested in survival. We must therefore consider how we are going to create the social space for survival. Work patterns have changed before. We had the menial work done by slaves in the remote past civilisations, creative work by craftsmen. During feudal times work was used as a form of exchange. After that the work ethic became tied up with the Protestant ethic and not to work was sin. We then moved into the industrial era when industrial work became the means of income, income the means of acquisition, acquisition the means of status.

We are now changing into a fundamentally new era, a new era which has been brought about first and foremost by the new technology and, secondly, by the Women's Movement. The Women's Movement has shown us, if nothing else did, that all work is valid, not just employment, not just creative work but the economics of a home. Most important of all, if the Women's Movement develops it will be the first thing to liberate the man from the shackles of somebody else's employment. This may be no bad thing.

Then we have had a third factor. The new thinkers, men like Leopold Kohr, who has written that wonderful book The Breakdown of Nations, which gave the thrust to the fourth world concept; Ernst Schumacher, Small is Beautiful— economics as though people really mattered; Ivan Illych The Expropriation of Health by the Medical Profession, who are so obsessed with the curing of disease that they fail to recognise the totally new thrust the promotion of health will give. The first line of his book is worth recording:

The medical establishment is a major threat to health.

— a statement with which his greatest critics agreed.

If I may return briefly to a topic that I have mentioned here before, if we espouse the new automated super technology and full employment in the old sense we will have an ecological disaster on our hands. We could render the planet barren. If we are to espouse this super technology we must accept that employment in the old sense will not be there; man hours of employment will have to be reduced. As a result of that we would have woman and man hours in community greatly increased. What do we do then with this time that becomes available if we do not want to face the revolution to which some Senators have alluded? First of all, we must share the available employment and, secondly, share the social space that is created in the time available. This means sharing facilities for creative work, acknowledging the right to participation, acknowledging the need for recreation in the spiritual sense and acknowledging also that all men throughout their lives should see life as a process involving the development of social skills and access to educational facilities.

The employment of the great machines, only in their infancy, will lead to products and profits made by the very few, perhaps at the expense of the many. We must not allow that to happen. The principle of a new philosophy of distribution must be inculcated into all our plans for the future. Let us acknowledge at least that no man yet made the natural power and the natural resources of Ireland — that is part of creation. The people of Ireland are as entitled to a fair share of that as are the owners of the machines.

I might put forward a few practical suggestions as to how we might go forward and perhaps some of the things which these select committees could look into. From a political point of view — and I have tried it in the hospital in which I work — the tripartite house committee should form the centre of our thinking. The operatives are never asked to meet for an annual general meeting in any of our hospitals, in fact in any of our institutions. The institutional input decides how the place will be run. But, apart from the operatives, far worse, the consumer, the person for whom the service is created, the person who pays our salaries, is never asked how his hospital or how his school — occasionally the school but never the hospital — should be run.

Therefore I look forward to the time when the consumer, the operatives and the institutional input, as a tripartite committee, will have a say in the running of our institutions. We need to think about community guilds, guilds for health, education, employment, use of land and resources and so on, guilds at which the three legs will be represented — consumer, operative and institutions. There should be open meetings in our society to debate, as was suggested by Senator Robinson, but among the people how they see the future in relation to their needs. It is also high time we had the possibility of a community forum on which people, perhaps in return for some rebate in their rents, rates or taxes, would attend to discuss the great issues of the day, when we would mobilise the thinking and enterprise of people.

In a political sense — returning to my theme of concentric politics — there is much merit in considering, at local level at least, tenants' associations electing representatives to a community council and both the community councils and tenants' associations electing the county council. With regard to central government and the present style of parametral politics one thing that has struck me since coming into this House, as a very privileged person whose appointment flies in the face of every democratic thought I have ever had — but I suppose we all take U-turns every now and then — is the great need in every part of Ireland for citizens advice bureaux, who will know the laws of the country, who will know what is available to the people so that "clienteleism" will come out of party politics, so that the people who come to the Dáil have time to reflect and think, so that this House will be full not only of people who want to speak but who also want to listen. "Clienteleism" belongs properly to the local community, serviced by experts in citizens advice bureaux related to a library service second to none, and if we cannot produce the books we can produce the book reviews.

I also think the politicians are put under far too much stress to do their job as well as the country should expect of them. The stress of which I am conscious among my colleagues here, and more so in the Dáil, is something which the average man and woman in the street could not tolerate — the bang on the door on Christmas Day in the middle of the Christmas lunch or you will lose the vote. It is nonsense. Therefore I have two more suggestions. Any man who goes into politics should at least, for his initial period, have a locum provided on a 50:50 basis for the job that he has left, 50 per cent paid by the firm that he has left and 50 per cent by the State. There should be no such thing as a break in pension rights.

Finally, with regard to economic decentralisation, it is no good having a fancy political ideal for returning power to the people if you do not do something about the economics of it. I have mentioned about the need to balance the concept of decentralisation with the need for economy. Let us think about a new system of taxation so that the local people at least feel that some of their taxes are being collected locally for local reasons. Perhaps income tax is still collected centrally. I might give you an example — and these figures are only examples because I am no economist and I am sure members could pick holes in them — but it will be on endeavour to expose the principle. If you have a nation of 10 million and 10 per cent of the taxes go centrally. There are four regions with 2.5 million in each and 25 per cent of the taxes go to the regions and 20 districts with 125,000 people in each, 50 per cent of the taxes going locally.

This, of course is a threat to the vested interests which we have in the central institutions of the State and central Government. It need not be done overnight, we could make a start to evolve in that direction, and we must also make an allowance, as my figures do, of 15 per cent of a redistribution factor, because if we took to that concept we would still have the poor community who are deprived, having no money to generate new enterprise, new opportunity and new social space. We must have a redistribution factor in order to try to change our communities and make one community more equitable for living with another. Finally, do not let us forget in regard to community that a community thrives on commitment not on commuters.

I hope I live to see the day in Ireland when, regardless of how deprived the community is, the doctor who serves it lives in that community, the chimney sweeper who serves it lives in that community, so that we will get back to what our forefathers had, a sense of community, a sense of belonging — the right to be and the need to belong. In Populorum Progressio, a document not often read by the Northern Protestants, I was very interested to find something which encapsulated this whole philosophy, the principle that the big should not do for the small what the small can do for itself, if you want a healthy society.

I will make two final points on the North of Ireland. Many of you will have read some of the comments I have made about the need for a solution to our conflict. The economic, political and social well-being of Ireland will never be right until we resolve that conflict, until we cope with the deep splits in consciousness which are involved. That requires a forgiving spirit. I ask Catholic Ireland to forgive the attitudes which Protestants have in relation to the Catholic people of Ireland over many centuries. I am not in a position to suggest that Catholic Ireland need to ask forgiveness for anything — that is up to Catholic Ireland — but we must have a healing once and for all if we are to go forward and not continue forever to talk about this problem that has plagued this land for centuries.

I will conclude with a brief few words about positive neutrality. I hope Ireland will retain its neutrality. First and foremost, it had a self-conscious need of it in the 1939-1945 war, yet in spite of that many Irishmen, more southerners than northerners I have been told, fought for the forces of the Crown against Nazism and Fascism, to their eternal credit. I can see one of them in this House. That self-conscious neutrality was totally understandable in the context of what had happened in the thirties and the legacy of Irish history. There is a different need. Now that the people of this country have stood on their feet for so long they have more self-confidence. The world needs the small nations to come together in a pact of neutrality, a pact that will reject nuclear weapons and nuclearism and strategies based on nuclearism.

Before concluding I will return to my opening plea, that we must mobilise the money, as Senator Ryan indicated, we must mobilise the political process, as Senator Robinson indicated, but most important of all — Senator Smith dealt with this — we must mobilise the people of Ireland in their communities so that we can give to our children a worthwhile life and future.

It gives me great pleasure to support this motion though I would be happier if the Dáil had been recalled for such a motion. Obviously most Members of this House have serious concern and understanding of the serious economic crisis this country is facing. The serious position seems to be escalating at a frightening pace and I sincerely hope we are not now in the position which the Coalition Government found in the country on assuming office in July 81 — no money to pay teachers by such and such a date, no money for gardaí, no money for Army. Is the cupboard again bare?

I would like today to refer particularly to the cuts in the health services over the past six weeks. We in Fine Gael are by no means objecting to restrictions in this area. Our record in Government speaks for itself, but what I want to condemn here today in the strongest possible terms, is the manner in which the Government went about imposing these cuts on the GMS, the health boards and, last but most important of all, the long suffering public.

Today, 1 October, is an important day for the medical card holders in this country as it is the day that the famous 900 OTC items most of which are essential to the health and well-being of our senior citizens, expectant mothers and our growing population will no longer be freely available over the counter.

Most of us will agree that there have been abuses in this area, but my objection to the Minister's approach is as follows. First, there was no consultation whatsoever with the doctors, chemists or health boards about any of the items. Chemists' advice in this area would have been invaluable. The are the people with the knowledge and expertise.

The Minister's decision was obviously not a result of any well thought out policy, either short-term or long-term. The cut-back in this area was very hasty and ill-informed, which has been proved by the Minister back-tracking on some of the items on this list when it was pointed out to him that a number of them led to a proven potential for drug abuse. Also the Minister indicated that products whose sale is subject to the Control of Sale Regulations, involving about 200 items, would also continue to be available under the GMS, but again he has backtracked. Such indecision and recklessness are deplorable.

My third objection to the Minister's handling is his clear lack of any social thinking and his complete disregard for the serious consequences of these hasty and ill-informed changes he is making in the GMS. This brings me to the recent extension of the medical card system to a further 78,000 extra people without reference to their means, at an annual cost of roughly £8 million. This decision of the Minister in my view is in direct contravention of section 45 of the Health Act which I would like to quote:

A person in either of the following categories shall have full eligibility for the services under this Part—

(a) adult persons unable without undue hardship to arrange general practitioner medical and surgical services for themselves and their dependants,

(b) dependants of the persons referred to in paragraph (a).

I put it to you that the Government has been in serious contravention of this section 45.

This Act was introduced in 1970 to protect the poor, the underprivileged, and the handicapped. The present cutbacks in the GMS will hit the very people that we are talking about. Those are the very people who will suffer most. Yet at the same time we are quite unnecessarily, without any demand from the general public, extending the medical card scheme to help the better-off section of our community, retired bank managers, for example, even though they may well be millionaires. They are in receipt of their pensions, they may well have another job and their wives may be working. This is an outrageous situation and one that this country can ill afford at this time of our economic development.

I would like to come next to the eight health boards who got an ultimatum to make further cutbacks, roughly 4 per cent, three-quarters way through a financial year. The Minister here again has completely shirked his responsibilities by putting pressure on the boards to effect severe cutbacks such as closing wards, closing hospitals, cutting out this service and cutting out that service. These beds would never have been put there, these services would never have been introduced if there had not been a demand for them and if the public did not need them. All these services and schemes were introduced with the consent of the Government and in my view they are the people who should now be taking these hard and unpleasant decisions by being more specific on where exactly the cuts must come. You cannot have your cake and eat it. The health boards were left extremely short of their desired allocations at the beginning of this financial year, but the chairmen of all the health boards and their chief executive officers met the Minister and explained the financial position. In his wisdom at that particular time — going back to last March or April — the Minister made up the shortfall in this allocation to quite a significant degree. But now, three-quarters through the financial year, the Minister has taken back almost all of this supplementary allocation. If any managing director ran his business like this he would get the gate and if any wife ran her house like this I am afraid she would get the gate too.

And a few for the road.

This is all following severe cutbacks last year. Further to this there are some boards who have received no major or minor capital allocations this year and there are new units in many parts of the country which we are all too well aware of lying idle and being vandalised for lack of staff. Surely this is yet another example of the total lack of planning and the completely inept management we have experienced in the country over the past few years.

In the past few months many criticisms have been levelled at the health boards. Whereas I admit that nothing is perfect and there is always room for improvement I take strong exception to the health boards being made the scapegoat for the financial mismanagement we have experienced in this country. They cannot be blamed for the enormous rise in our health service budget. The cost of the health service has escalated at a ferocious rate, we will all agree, over the last decade, up to £960 million at the moment. Everybody thought there was no tomorrow. But tomorrow has arrived. We are in a rapid state of decline with little or no resources, no productivity, fierce unemployment and inflation with the next decade's money well and truly spent.

The euphoria of politicians over the last ten years has indeed been questionable. They have succumbed one by one to the many pressure groups who have been so successful because of the very nature of our political divide and because of the sickening lust for power at any price. Political expediency has been the name of the game. But as I say, tomorrow has arrived and reality has to be faced just as Deputy FitzGerald warned it had to be faced over a year ago. But nobody believed it then, least of all Fianna Fáil who accused the Coalition of scaremongering and over-reacting about the state of the economy at that time.

Reality must be faced. But what does reality mean to people? I was electioneering in a general election once and while I was canvassing this person I asked him whom he was going to vote for. He said: "I am going to vote for whoever puts most money in my pocket". Now the question must be asked: "If there is no money whom are you going to vote for?" That is the reality of the situation and I would suggest that the health boards are facing reality and for the most part have acted most responsibly. They have always been disciplined and they have lived within their budget. If the Government had done the same we would not be here today debating this economic crisis.

We do not deny that if we were returned to Government we would restrain increases in the health services but we would take steps only which would bear least heavily on the less well-off sections of our community and we would have full consultation with every possible interested party involved in the health and social welfare services. Probably most important of all we would have a completely comprehensively planned approach to this whole important area of Government.

The Minister for Health, Deputy Woods, came into this House yesterday and he spent over one hour telling us all about the great things that Fianna Fáil had done over the last ten or 15 years. It appears that he was more motivated by filling in the time than by making any constructive contribution about his long-term plans. He spoke for a whole hour and he never once mentioned the mentally handicapped, the most under-privileged and helpless section of our community. This serious omission, he said, was due to his desire to be brief. Everybody can judge for himself. For my part I think it shows a total and complete lack of concern and commitment to this very serious problem.

I should also like to make reference to the Minister's direction for a 2 per cent reduction in the health services work force by 1983 and to ask him if he intends to cut the personnel in his Department by 2 per cent? In the social welfare area there are many abuses, and we, in Government, realised that and took positive steps to rectify them. We proposed in our budget to tax short-term social welfare benefits, but in the ensuing election Fianna Fáil derided us up and down the country for this. Now, seven months later, I believe they are thinking of introducing that. We are glad they are able to learn from us.

The Government must tackle this area because the working population are sick to death of the whole matter. The incentive to work must be restored. I was pleased to hear the Minister say that the Government are taking measures to remedy the situation which arises for those on short time work who find themselves better off as a result of working a three-day-week. I was also pleased to see that the Minister, despite his desire to be brief, did not forget to mention the National Community Development Agency. It is now well over ten weeks since he bulldozed that completely inadequate Bill through the Dáil and Seanad because of his desire to get the agency active. We must question the Minister's sincerity and commitment to tackling poverty in our society. Why the delay in announcing the composition of this body? Could it be that the money allocated for it in this year's budget is already spent or has it been given to someone else for, shall we say, services rendered? The people must be told the truth. We must find out what will happen to that money. If it is not spent this year will the National Community Development Agency have that amount in next year's allocation to work with?

I put it to the Government to stop playing politics with the sick, the handicapped, and the under-privileged people in our community. If not they should resign and let the electorate decide their fate. I have no doubt that the people will return a Government, led by Deputy FitzGerald, which with planning, consultation and a basic sense of humanity will put us on the road to recovery and give us all that sense of pride and dignity we used to treasure so dearly.

I am pleased to be present to contribute to this important debate. I should like to take the last speaker to task first. I should like to tell the Senator that we have no notion of resigning. The people of Ireland gave us a mandate last February to govern the country and we intend to continue to do so despite all the fine sermons that are preached and all the fine words that are uttered across the way.

On a point of information, it is not correct that the mandate was given by Deputy Gregory?

We cannot have a point of information. Senator O'Rourke to continue.

The mandate was given by Deputy Gregory and not by the people of Ireland.

The mandate was given by the people of Ireland to this Government to rule this country and we intend to continue to do so.

It was bought.

Senator O'Rourke to continue, without interruption.

I want now to address myself to the debate. Apart from the unfortunate use of the word "inequitable" in the motion there is not much else that I would quibble about. We are deeply concerned at the continuing economic and social crisis, the level of unemployment and we have called upon the Government to initiate proposals as a matter of urgency to deal with the implications of the deterioration in the country's economy. The last speaker said one cannot have one's cake and eat it. That is exactly the case. That speaker went on to propose, like other Senators, that the cake should get bigger and bigger, the slices therefrom should get larger and larger but that nobody should contribute to the ingredients of this cake. It is, indeed, a very magical mix that will produce a cake of such proportions and yet have no ingredients in it. It would need a large dose of yeast in it so that it would rise and rise and rise.

Read the manifesto.

The proposers of the motion yesterday set out with the laudatory intention that this would be a nonpolitical motion. Indeed, I must pay tribute to Senators Ross and Murphy, who in proposing and seconding the motion were strictly non-partisan and conducted their proposals on that line. Much of what Senator Ross had to say was sensible. Yesterday, when I met him in the corridor, I said to him: "I liked a lot of what you said but not your headline grabbing call to the IMF". I did not say that because an editoral in one of today's newspapers made a similar comment, I hold the view that such a statement was damaging to the country domestically and internationally on the economic front.

I take exception to Senator Murphy who, when seconding the motion, spoke of the nationalisation of land and took Michael Davitt's words out of context. He referred to the 1882 Land Act and subsequent Land Act which gave the land of Ireland to the people of Ireland and said that was not what was intended. From my knowledge of the land history of Ireland, not so much from my knowledge of agriculture, the desire within Irish people is to own their own patch of ground, whether it is the quarter-acre of the Famine and pre-Famine days or the slightly larger holdings people received through the various Land Acts since 1882 and, indeed, continued to get through the Land Commission division of estates. This is something inherent in Irish nature, this ownership of one's own plot of land. I have never been to Russia or other countries where collectivisation and forced commune-type living are the order of the day but I have read enough about it to know that collectivisation of land would rob the people of a very basic principle, the right to own one's land, to work it and to be entitled to the produce of it. I am glad the forthcoming agricultural plan links productivity with the payment of farm grants. That is in keeping with our tradition of ownership of land.

Various speakers on the other side told us about all that is wrong with our country. They gave us a recital of ills but they have never put forward genuine suggestions of what can be implemented. I should like to nail one obvious misconception that has arisen out of what has been said by some speakers. It is that the Minister for Health and Social Welfare, and, indeed, the Taoiseach and members of the Cabinet, are playing politics with the poor, the underprivileged, the mentally handicapped and other less privileged members of society. Deputy Woods yesterday, and the Taoiseach today, put it on record that the cutbacks which we are now facing will not mean a diminution in services to the genuine needy, the underprivileged and those who are in need of help. I pledge myself to that and to seeing that that will be carried through. It is wrong to go from this Chamber and say that the Government are bringing in the cutbacks at the expense of the poor and the underprivileged. That is not so and manifestly it will be seen to be not so.

Many speakers in the Opposition benches have asked for action. We are proposing action. The Government are not tardy in this respect. I understand that over the next couple of weeks we will see the unfolding and submission to both Houses of the Oireachtas of the Economic Plan. Many of the items in this plan will be as a result of hard decisions which have to be taken. I cannot see how the Opposition parties in this House and in the Dáil can in truth and justice say to the people: "We cannot follow this plan: we cannot support this plan." They preached financial rectitude for quite some time. In fact, as Senator Bolger in a previous address said, Deputy FitzGerald advocated financial stringency and rectitude for some time.

I say to Deputy FitzGerald and to the members of his Front Bench and back bench: "Now is your chance to follow the precepts which you put forward and see if you can give effect to all the fine words that you have spoken". The Irish people and Irish history will not take kindly to an Opposition who at a very critical time in our economic and social history, did not take the opportunity for once to leave aside party politics and come away from the narrow cul-de-sac, petty politics. whatever you might like to call it, and follow instead the road——

Why did you not do it in Opposition?

I am speaking and I am entitled to be heard. The road forward for us will be this National Economic Plan. We must mobilise, as Senator Robb said, the people behind us. We have a commitment, as many speakers have said, to the young people. There is no point in us going out and saying our greatest asset today is our young people. That is only paying lip service to them if we do not intend to do something about it.

I applaud the many Senators on the other side of the House who spoke, in particular Senator Barnes, of the need for a continuing input into technological education and changes in the curriculum. We need to advance to where the openings will be for educated youth and not to blind alleyways. There are already too many in an academic or particular professional field for whom there will be no openings and no opportunities. But above all we must instil in young people a sense of enterprise and initiative. They must seize the opportunity when it comes and divert themselves from paths at the end of which there are no jobs.

We must face up to the fact that the technological age is as far reaching in its implications as the industrial revolution was in its day. Unless we do so we face a danger. We should tell this to young people and explain to them that technological advances will mean a change in attitudes. We have a grave responsibility in this regard. There are many miles to go before we come to grips with our problems. However, we are making an effort to do so.

I very much liked what Senator Robb said. He made a very fine philosophical speech. The broad centre of his speech remains very true. We must mobilise the people. We must get back to the old, sturdy, thrifty ways which we had in Ireland long ago. Whilst it is 1982 and the centenary of de Valera. I do not quite mean a return to the comely maidens — not that there are not comely maidens still about and comely mní too — but the idea and the thrust behind his thinking of self-reliance, sturdiness of spirit, initiative, enterprise and so on were ideas which Arthur Griffith in his day brought up in his policies when he was founding the original Sinn Féin. It would be no harm in this period of retrenchment to call upon the very same ideas and ideals.

The Irish race matures in periods of adversity. Historically this is so. What is in us will now come to the fore. We cannot tap or channel it unless there is a consensus of opinion. I appeal to the Opposition benches to forget who started what, who said what, who promised what, who did this, who did that, and just remember that now we all have a chance to do something. There is a National Economic Plan coming forward soon. We have a chance to look at it in a critical and constructive way, to examine its proposals and see the clear path we must follow. I say again to them: "Come out of your cul-de-sac way, give us the backing we need on this plan and Ireland will be kind to you.”

I do not wish to go over the ground that other Senators have covered but this debate is important because people are becoming well aware of the extreme financial difficulties we are in. This debate highlights the problems and also increases people's awareness of them. I should like to make some recommendations on what should be done. First of all we must do what we have all agreed needs to be done, that is reduce Government spending and Government borrowing. There have been mistakes made by Governments in the recent past regarding our fiscal policy and it is now time to turn that around. We must change our direction and ensure that our currency and the economic situation remain stable and that we start to grow out of the present crisis.

The Government move which sparked off this debate was a decision to cut back on public service pay. This would be another recommendation. We should review the whole area of public service employment and remuneration. It is only too clear that Governments in the last few years have yielded to the seductive temptation of trying to solve the employment problem by increasing the number of posts in the public service. It is now clear that this has not been successful. It has pushed the public service pay bill up. In certain areas of the public service there is over-manning. It has led to a chain of problems which shows that policy was ill-advised. We are now in a situation when we need to cut back public service employment, particularly in areas where there is superflous manpower.

If we want to we could widen the discussion and look at the problem of security of tenure. That applies in my own profession, in the universities, in the public service and to a whole range of employment where when one is appointed one automatically has tenure for life. I do not think we can continue to do this. In all sectors of the public service there will have to be contractual arrangements by which people get jobs for certain periods of years without an absolute guarantee that they will be renewed on expiry of the period. This is one way to make the public service more efficient. I do not cast aspersions on the people involved, but it is clear that the structure needs to be examined. In many areas of the public service we are not getting value for the money that is paid out in salaries. That is because people are in jobs that are not sufficiently challenging. They were appointed to posts that really should not exist at all. We need to review this area. It is quite clear that most people will not stand for major rises in pay in the public service. The reason is that in the private sector their jobs are shaky and people may be unemployed. Businesses are collapsing and a large rise in public service pay means an increase in the spiral. The man in the street will not stand for it when he sees that public servants have security of tenure. He knows that large pay increases will put his own job at risk or put his own prospects for employment even further into the future.

Another recommendation I have concerns the black economy. It is not possible to get figures on the black economy, on people doing "nixers", but is seems to constitute at least five and perhaps as much as 10 per cent of the total economy. Of course, the figures do not appear in print. It is the custom to decry the black economy but I think it is extremely useful. Instead of decrying it we should take the attitude: "If you cannot beat them, join them". We should legalise the black economy.

In the black economy, which is all around us, when somebody is paid to do a job he is just paid for that job. A person gets value for money. The problem really occurs with the PRSI regulations. I recommend that we look at a much wider set of PRSI exemptions at the bottom end of the scale to provide that up to a certain amount a person would be exempt from PRSI contributions. This recommendation was partially made by the Commission on Taxation. They pointed out that at the moment PRSI contribution is a tax on employment. It constitutes a disincentive to employ people. That is why so many people are employed "under the counter", just to get over the difficulty with PRSI. The commission recommended that instead of regarding PRSI as an employment tax or a payroll tax it should be a tax on profits, and that appears much more equitable. In my view it would encourage employment.

We should widen the exemption bands at the bottom of the scale. There are exemptions for certain youth employment schemes but they are narrowly defined. If the black economy were legalised we would be recognising a de facto situation. If it were done up to a certain range it would be much easier to bring into the net the people above that range who are getting away with too much. It would be an incentive to employment and it is something we should consider.

This morning Senator O'Mahony spoke about changing our industrial strategy. I thought his arguments were persuasive. I support him in his view that we need a better system of evaluation of public expenditure on capital projects so that we do not continually turn up these white elephants such as the NET scheme where the State expenditure trebled in respect of the original estimate. There is also the situation regarding Knock airport and one does not know where that will stop. Will a plane ever land there? How many more millions of pounds of taxpayers' money will be put into such projects? There should be a more watertight system of evaluation of expenditure on projects such as that.

In our industrial policy to increase employment people now see the limit to the attraction of multinationals to this country. In a time of recession they do not have any obligations to us. They come here because the benefits from the State are high: in other words the taxpayers' money is used to fund their enterprises. However, their commitment to Ireland is limited. In the long run it would be more advantageous for us if, instead of attracting multinationals, we tried to encourage our own enterprises. In areas where large capital sums are required to set up industries it could be done along co-operative lines. It would be much better if we could provide the enterprises ourselves. Perhaps the Government might consider the possibility of industrial co-operatives filling the gap that exists in terms of employment and towards which we have directed many efforts to attracting the multinationals.

It is of interest to look at the agricultural sector. In the early 1960s, when the boom was on, it must have appeared to outside capitalists to have been the most attractive investment in Ireland. The reason Irish agriculture remains in Irish hands is that so much of it is run on a co-operative basis. Clearly there would have been great incentives for investment in that area by foreign capitalists and the multinationals, but fortunately for us the co-operative system has ensured that the control of our agriculture has remained in Irish hands. One should seek to go back to the basic co-operative ideals, to the ideal that the benefit the members got was not in payment of a dividend but in more efficient marketing, in higher prices, in educational benefits and in the economic and social benefits they got by taking part in the co-operative enterprise.

When thinking of setting up industries on co-operative lines we need to examine the ideals of our co-operative movement which forms such a large sector of the agricultural industry. The total turnover of co-operatives is something in the region of £1,400 million to £1,600 million a year.

I should like to see a co-operative approach to industrialisation. After all, some speakers recommended all-out nationalisation; other people are entirely free enterprise philosophers, and the co-operative comes midway between the two. It has the benefit of collectivisation without the element of compulsion. One Senator mentioned the stark fact that the compulsory collectivisation of agriculture in eastern Europe has not been successful and the eastern European governments are trying to re-introduce incentives to increase output, production and efficiency. Therefore, compulsory collectivisation is not the answer. However, we still have a great deal to gain from the co-operative movement and the ideals which inspired the co-operators, the Rochdale pioneers and their famous philosophy, and this is one important way of generating capital from small investments and dealing with the unemployment problems. The Government should encourage that sort of move — it would require legislation and certain incentives — with our own people and our own resources rather than spending time, effort and money on inviting the multinationals to try to solve the problem.

Finally, I echo the call Senator Robb made for more decentralisation. The time is past when one just blames the Government in office and does nothing oneself. The day of the handouts and grants is gone, whichever Government are in office. The money will just not be there. More emphasis should be put on local communities. Local authorities should have the power to raise finance. The move away from local authority financing, the abolition of rates, was absolutely wrong. Local authorities should have the power to raise finance and more responsibility should be put on them, instead of the very wrong tendency which was indulged in within the last five or six years to centralise everything. We should go back to decentralising. We should develop the local communities and the sense of community and make the communities responsible for a much greater portion of their own affairs. We must build up local involvement and develop a local spirit and so get away from the idea that if the Government do not provide the funds then nothing can be done. Much can be done. We are in the fortunate position of being, in global terms, a wealthy country. We are in the top 25 countries in the world in terms of per capita wealth. We have resources. We should be building up the framework which would encourage initiative and enterprise by the people and, with assistance from the Government and with the right policies, develope the sort of enterprising spirit which will get us out of the crisis in which we find ourselves.

The motion before us today is very interesting. It states:

That Seanad Éireann expresses its deep concern at the continuing economic and social crisis,...

Indeed, we are very concerned and I am sure every citizen of the Republic is concerned. We are all in agreement on that point. The motion refers to:

the unprecedented level of unemployment...

We are very concerned about that. The figure has been given as 160,000. If I may comment on that figure, it refers to the number on the live register. Not necessarily all of the people on the live register are unemployed but unfortunately many of them are. I will refer to that point later.

The one objectionable thing I see in the motion is the use of the adjective "inequitable". The motion refers to:

inequitable cutbacks in the social services...

Much would depend upon what one would regard as equitable and inequitable, but the cutbacks had to be made and I think every sensible person inside and outside this House agrees that the cutbacks had to be made. Indeed, I am sure they would agree to that further cutbacks must be made.

The final section of the motion is:

That Seanad Éireann... hereby calls on the Government to initiate proposals as a matter of urgency to deal with the grave implications of the serious deterioration in the country's economy.

That is on the way already. A start had been made on it before this motion was framed at all. We will have our National Plan, I would say, within a matter of weeks. The Taoiseach referred to it this morning and, please God, we will have a further long debate on that National Plan. When we have that done, then it will be up to us as public representatives by example and precept to see that that plan is put into operation and that the measures to be taken will be taken fully and with success.

Coming in here to offer my contribution on this motion on the second day at this hour of the evening, it is inevitable that I would find that many of the things I would like to have said have been said already. I do not intend to repeat them, but I would like to make a few points that have not been dealt with, or at least not sufficiently for my liking. I was pleased with the debate in general. As it went on from both sides a little nursery rhyme kept running through my head, and there is wisdom in and much to be learned from many nursery rhymes. The one in my mind runs as follows:

Old Mother Hubbard went to the cupboard

To get her poor dog a bone,

But when she got there the cupboard was bare,

And so the poor doggie got none.

You can see where the parallel is. When it was discovered that the cupboard was bare, the conclusion was formed — and accepted — that the doggie was not going to get anything for the simple reason that it was not there. There is no record that the doggie, either at the instigation of or with the connivance of Mother Hubbard, went off and started protest marches, strikes, go slows and so on. He just accepted the fact that if the cupboard was bare there was no bone for him. It is not even suggested that Mother Hubbard on behalf of the doggie could borrow a bone somewhere. There is a lesson for us. If the cupboard is bare, it is bare, and the only way we can ease the pangs of hunger in the little dog is by our industry and energy to provide a bone.

I was saying to myself when the Taoiseach was speaking that in order to balance the budget in 1983 the equivalent of 900 bones at £1 million each would be required. That shows us the dreadful plight we are in. If we are in such a plight there is only one thing to do — put our heads together and work ourselves out of it.

We always regarded ourselves as being a valiant, fighting and independent race. We occupy a small island in the west of Europe and contrary to what, I think it was Senator Robinson said today about a multiplicity of the resources, our resources are, indeed, very limited. I could name our resources in just a few words. Our main resources, to my mind, are the ten inches of soil we have under us, the bountiful sea around us, the beauty and magnificence of our heritage — physical, cultural, musical, intellectual, and lastly but not least in plain language, the brains of our people, both young and old. These are our simple resources and if we act in a responsible way as people of independent mind, people with courage and a great tradition, we can get ourselves out of the plight we are in. But we can only do it if we assert our complete independence. By independence I mean standing on our own feet and not going to this person or that person, to this organisation or that organisation begging for this, that and the other. We must depend on our own efforts.

Recently, Mr. Peter H. Dailey, the American Ambassador to Ireland, addressed a meeting of the Cork Chamber of Commerce and I am sure the House will find very interesting indeed some of his remarks during the course of his address. I quote from The Cork Examiner of Wednesday, September 29:

"Industry in Ireland is on the verge of a tremendous revolution," said Mr. Dailey, who praised the IDA for their efforts in attracting and establishing new industries which give this country the opportunity to become the "Japan of Europe".

The Irish are the most successful ethnic group in the US. This, the Ambassador said, is probably due to the fact that they are the most entrepreneurial. He said that when looking at the American and the Irish economies some people would say that "the glass is half-empty but I would regard it as being half-full."

That is the first point I want to make — let us look at the bottle or the glass being half-full rather than half-empty. Please God, we will get out of this recession, but to do so we must work and we must use the God-given talents that we have. The entrepreneur can play a great part in getting us out of our difficulties.

A number of Senators referred to education and to the present impasse as far as many of the professionals are concerned. I entirely agree. Our educational system should be, to a large extent, geared towards training the young people now before it is too late. Train them to think of starting their own enterprises at some stage. There is such a wide scope. A friend of mine was taken ill recently and I went into one of those very big stores to get a get-well card to send him. I searched it from one end to the other and could not get a get-well card made in this country. They all bore the mark “Made in Great Britain”. So, I decided to make a get-well card myself and sent it.

There are many thousands of ways in which new businesses could be established if we had people with the skill, determination and will to do it. But people are inclined to think as a result of a deficiency, perhaps unforeseen, in our system of getting young people's minds on a job that was there already, so many vacancies here and so many vacancies there. We have to go out and do the thing ourselves, start our own businesses. As Mr. Dailey, the Ambassador, said, it was done in the United States. It was a very big thing for him to say that the Irish were the most successful ethnic group in the US. They had very little education but plenty of brains and the desire to survive. They did not ask anything from anybody, they went and started their own businesses.

Regarding agriculture, why is it that we have to spend many millions of pounds to buy imported food in a country where we can produce the best food that could be produced anywhere in the world? That is one of the extraordinary things that I hope will be dealt with in this Economic Plan. I am sure it will, but it would certainly want to be.

There are other areas where we could start new businesses without depending on employment from any group, employment agency or industry, but I will not go into that because most of these things have been touched on already. A good question that was asked by quite a number of Senators is, what led us into the difficulty we are in at the moment? Outside factors were mentioned — the extraordinary rise in oil prices, the enormous rise in 1979 which made the other rise in 1973 look insignificant. It was a very big factor. There were other factors as well and it might not be any harm for us to look at them so that we would be in a proper frame of mind to deal with them when the time comes. Another cause was the end of emigration. Emigration literally came to a standstill in the early sixties. People had nowhere to go. Up to then they could go to Britain and elsewhere to get employment. They cannot do so now. Joining the EEC raised the standard of living very, very high. For the first time in many decades the farming community in particular began to thrive and prosper and, unfortunately, we get into the frame of mind of thinking that this would continue, whereas we should know that nothing lasts forever.

In mathematics if a graph begins to rise, the time will come when it will fall. People could not see that. To prevent them from seeing it we had one of the most serious causes of all, that is, the impact of television on the minds of people. Within a couple of years of the introduction of television, films and shows on television which entered every parlour and kitchen in the country showed a seductive pagan sort of life where the modus operandi seemed to be dog eating dog. Greed and violence were portrayed as virtues. Even vice was put forward as being a virtue. People, vying with people they saw on television living mostly in urban surroundings, began to act like them and imitate them. One of our faults as a race is that we are very imitative, and this is a pity.

We began to live beyond our means, and to acquire the money required to live beyond our means, tax evasion set in on a big scale, dishonesty and working to rule. The result was that our moral standards, our standards of honesty, common decency and independence began to deteriorate and are deteriorating every day.

From time to time one reads leading articles on these matters in newspapers. I had the good fortune to come across one of the best I read in recent years. It was in The Cork Examiner of 29 December. It reads as follows:

It is no use preaching that one cannot have one's cake and eat it when all around people who have their cake and eat it and enjoy someone else's cake as well, can be identified without much searching. The trouble is that they are not censured by society but envied and, if possible, emulated.

I agree entirely with that statement. Society is largely to blame for this. That is the mood people are in, and have been in for quite a long time. When we can put an end to that, and get people to stand on their own two feet, and declare: "From now on I will do an honest day's work; I will pay the tax I am supposed to pay; I will do the best day's work I can possibly do", when society accepts that as the norm, we can forge ahead and tackle seriously the solving of our economic and fiscal problems. This article continues:

With the ostentatious evidence of the lotus eaters all around, how could the country be convinced that the national cake does not exist any more, that it was gobbled up in a decade of wasteful gluttony and that the country will be paying for over coming generations? The people to be most pitied as a result of this are our youth.

The young people of today are as good as, if not better than, the young people of any previous generation. I have constant dealings with them. I have put hundreds of boys and girls through my hands and I know their honesty, their decency and their high ideals. My heart often bleeds for them when I think of the type of philosophy that seems to be prevalent at the moment. There are two other factors I wish to mention and I am at the final stages of my short address. There is a population explosion. The population of this State has increased by half a million. The problem was big enough up to then, but it is bigger still now. In a short time the effect of the microchip will become more and more evident. Many industries which required X operatives will shortly require x/2 or x/3. Many of these industries will be automated. That will mean fewer chances of employment unless we can breed more entrepreneurs among the young people. That could be our salvation.

One of my fears is that youth in their idealism may be attracted to violence and what they consider short cuts towards getting problems solved. We must appeal to our youth and, by precept and example, we must encourage them to keep their dignity and their pride, and to work as best they can to equip themselves to diversify and take up whatever employment is available to them at the time. Young people are brave enough to do that. We must train them in how best to use their leisure time, and that can be done. I am in a position to be able to say that categorically. Youth can be trained to put their leisure to good use.

If our youth fail us the country is doomed. We must lead them along the right lines and get back to the simple philosophy of a free and an independent people. You must provide for your own necessities, your own needs and your own entertainment and depend on nobody to supply these to you. I want to refer to the doctrine of the great founder of the party of which I am a member, and I am sure my friends on the other side of the House will agree with the sentiments and the motto of that great man when he gave us his ideal of prosperity. His ideal was that they day would come when we could all live in modest comfort, no more and no less. It is the duty of each and every one of us to preach that doctrine wherever we go. If we do that, we will be doing a good job for our people, and above all for our young. Mol an óige agus tiocfaidh sí. We will be laying the foundations for the building of the hard road back to solvency. When we come to the end of that road, we may see stretching before us a green horizon which tells us we are coming to a very happy land.

I am glad the Minister is with us and I would like to express my appreciation to the Taoiseach for honouring the House by his presence this morning. It is an indication of how seriously this debate is being taken all round.

I support this motion that:

Seanad Éireann expresses its deep concern at the continuing economic and social crisis, the unprecedented level of unemployment and inequitable cutbacks in the social services and hereby calls on the Government to initiate proposals as a matter of urgency to deal with the grave implications of the serious deterioration in the country's economy.

I refer to that motion purposely because we want to be absolutely clear about the sense of urgency contained in that motion. As I see it, it is a matter of extreme importance for everybody on all sides of this House to put forward constructive and workable proposals, in so far as they can do that, to alleviate the extremely serious economic situation now existing and indeed, steadily worsening right across the Irish economy. Unfortunately, the serious position in our economy is in no way confined to any particular section of society or any particular stratum of the community. It is something that has hit right across. Hopefully the discussion on this motion will yield results and by this I mean that we will have some tangible positive proposals and not just a whole lot of historical data put together, that we will leave here having identified the problem and then having come forward with a set of proposals to which consideration can be given and which can be worked on. It is important that every Member of this House would see the taking of this motion here and the reconvening of the Seanad as an important step in endeavouring to come forward with realistic solutions to deal with this critical position now obtaining. However, it is important to reflect briefly on the history of events that have led us to this position today. I would submit quite categorically that our economic problems started in a real way in 1977 when Fianna Fáil in that most extravagant and irresponsible election manifesto set about buying support from the Irish electorate by way of outlandish promises which our economy could not then afford and indeed could never have afforded.

It was regrettable that our Coalition Government during a four-year span had just got the economy on the about turn to recovery when these irresponsible measures were promised to the community. Then there was the abolition of rates on houses and the abolition of car tax. While these changes were welcomed by the community they deprived the Exchequer of much-needed funds. This is something we must not forget. I accept that there were and still are external factors in the form of oil prices over which we have no control and there are other factors, too, that affect our entire economic situation. But I would submit that between the period 1977 and 1981, when the Fianna Fáil Government had an unprecedented majority in the House, a majority of 20 seats, they totally neglected to govern our country. History must and will clearly record that fact — that there was no reason why the positive measures that were required should not have been taking during that period.

People talk in more recent times about Governments not being able to do X, Y and Z because of not having a sufficient majority and so on. For that reason I think it is no harm to pinpoint that period when the greatest majority of all time existed but when we had nothing but a downhill situation on the economic front. Having referred to that period of government I believe, though I do not like recriminations, that the then administration must be identified with the present Government. Since they took office last March the present Government must be seen as an administration that have been totally ineffective in handling the country's affairs. In my view — and I think it is a view shared by many others — the present Government, due to a combination of inability to tackle the problems and a lack of earnestness to govern, have brought us to this very serious all-time low in Irish economic matters.

The Taoiseach identified our country's problems in an address to the nation in January 1980. For this he must be saluted. One must pay him tribute for having identified our problems. But he stands condemned, and so do the Fianna Fáil administration, for doing absolutely nothing about those problems for the subsequent 18 months. The Taoiseach had until June or July 1981 to do something and yet nothing was done.

We then had a period in which the Coalition Government, led by Fine Gael and in a constructive, responsible way joined with Labour, from July 1981 to their departure from office following the February election set about correcting the country's economic difficulties. Had they had the opportunity of continuing to pursue that kind of responsible policy they would unquestionably have gone a long distance towards solving the problems which are now acute. It is regrettable that, the Coalition Government not being there to do it, Fianna Fáil did not go along the similar line of restraint and general policy as set out in that January budget.

Unemployment has been referred to frequently here in the past two days. In my view, if we are to make real progress in solving the massive unemployment problem, now in excess of 150,000 persons and unfortunately perhaps as high as 200,000 in the months ahead, we must start with our native resources. We must start with agriculture. Quite frankly the people, particularly Senator Murphy, who proposed the nationalisation of land and other resources are being totally irresponsible. I do not intend to reply at length to his remarks on the nationalisation of land. The suggestion is so ludricous it does not warrant lengthy reply except to point out to him, as an academic — and I am surprised he does not know — that in Russia two-thirds, and I exphasise this, of the total land acreage is collectively owned and managed by the State and one-third is still privately owned. Yet we find that that two-thirds of the land of the same type is producing significantly less than the one-third. That is just one small example of where as far as land usage is concerned private enterprise totally outstrips nationalisation. Nationalisation is no answer to our problems.

Unfortunately agriculture is now in its fourth year of an extremely serious recession. In spite of what is being said and has been said about how well farmers are doing, it must be pointed out that farming problems remain with us. It is alarming to think that even the continued firmness in the cattle trade this autumn, when we have had a good harvest, will not ensure that in 1982 we will revert in real income terms to within distance of the 1978 levels of income. In 1982 farmers' incomes may be a few percentage points ahead of inflation. Farmers' incomes will show an increase of an estimated 21 per cent while inflation for the year will be approximately 18 per cent. However, taking the years 1979 to 1982 into account, an estimate of the farmers' income position will show a reduction of 46 per cent on the 1978 levels in real terms.

This is a serious situation, not serious for farmers only but for the entire community, as might be gleaned from a few comments I shall have to make. In my opinion growth in agriculture can make a very positive contribution to solving our present economic ills. Overall agricultural output for 1982 will be up by approximately 3 per cent from a very low 1981 base. The first priority we must pursue, in order to stimulate agricultural growth and development on a realistic basis, is to get inflation under control and bring down interest rates. Some encouraging movement has taken place along both these routes in recent times. But frankly interest levels are far too high for agriculture to sustain at present.

From my recollection of the debate so far I think added-value has been referred to. I do not think that a sufficiently in-depth examination of added-value in agriculture has been made. The industry has been condemned for what it is not doing. I would rather pose the question: what can we do with agriculture? In what way can that industry contribute to the solution of our economic ills? I would firmly propose, as a remedy to our serious unemployment problem, a continued significant growth in agriculture coupled with a substantial level of added-value to agricultural products. This is the important point. In this way we could give a much-needed stimulus to the level of farmers' incomes and at the same time provide many badly-needed extra jobs in the processing and marketing sectors of agriculture. Farmers' incomes can best be improved by a realistic level of price for farm produce sold, coupled with a correct level of costs of farm inputs. I contend that aids and subsidies to farmers would not be necessary if a satisfactory price/input cost ratio was established. This would result in a significant increase in the volume produced by farmers. This suggestion might appear to be surprising to some people. But frankly it would do a great deal for the creation of a better understanding had we a correct price level for farm produce and a correct level of input cost. There would be less misunderstanding and a greater degree of harmony.

It has been established scientifically that as many as 23,000 — and I underline 23,000 — extra jobs can be created in the area of added-value to agricultural produce by way of further processing of agricultural goods. It must be emphasised that these 23,000 extra jobs in the processing and marketing sectors are possible only if agriculture is helped to attain its potential. In other words, the potential for 23,000 extra jobs is there in the added-value sector but it will not happen of its own accord. This must be well planned and organised both at processing and marketing levels resulting in some additional farm employment. Taking the 23,000 jobs, coupled with a nominal increase of, say, 2,000 jobs on farm employment, would provide 25,000 extra jobs. Taking those 25,000 extra jobs in the direct productive sector and acknowledging, as is generally acknowledged, that there is a 1:1 ratio between those in the goods or productive sector and those in the service sector — and by the servicing sector I mean those in the banking world, the insurance world and so on; I am not talking about those in the civil service exclusively; I am talking about the general services — I contend, with substantiated evidence from NESC reports that that potential exists.

In presenting those figures I have cut them down in order to be realistic. I am suggesting that with a combination of direct increase in jobs from added-value, coupled with direct employment in the servicing of these extra persons, we are talking about 50,000 extra jobs. This does not eliminate our problem totally. But I suggest that agriculture would be effecting a very significant improvement if they could be realised. It can be realised only — and I want to stress this point — by an absolutely organised approach. It will require a well thought-out plan and dynamic programme at production, processing and marketing levels in agriculture to ensure its achievement. Lest somebody would come back hastily and talk about improved technology, may I say also that I have taken into account in my calculations the eroding effects of improved technology, so that those would be net figures.

At present, Ireland is importing approximately £650 million worth of food each year. A very substantial amount of this food import bill could be replaced by more home produced foods. This would have the immediate effect of directly and quickly helping our balance of payments deficit. A clear example of how food imports could be reduced involves fruit and vegetables. £36.7 million worth of imported fruit and vegetables could be replaced by home produced goods and this could be substantially increased if proper development of the industry takes place. That is just one example. There are other areas in which massive savings could be made with consequent relief of balance of payments difficulties.

For example, in 1981 over £14 million worth of fresh vegetables were imported into Ireland. This figure is likely to be higher in 1982. These vegetables were mainly cabbage, onions, carrots, sprouts etc., all easily grown in Ireland. The area of lands used for growing commercial vegetables has remained static at 11,000 acres over the past four years, while comsumption has already increased and has been filled by imports.

I strongly urge the Government and all concerned to provide special measures to deal with production, processing and marketing. Very special measures must be adopted to streamline the entire area of production, processing and marketing of all our agricultural produce to ensure that we maximise the resources from our land. All existing agencies such as ACOT, the Agricultural Institute, Córas Tráchtála, marketing boards and all those in the trade, those doing the job, must be motivated to work in a co-ordinated and efficient way to ensure we get the best results from our marketing efforts on the home scene, as well as exporting efficiently and competitively. The entire areas of food, packaging, presentation, production, and processing coupled with an effective and dynamic marketing effort both at home and abroad can make a significant difference to our overall economic position.

Pursuing these objectives would be beneficial on three vital fronts: (a), the creation of more employment, (b), reduction in our import bill and balance of payments deficit, and (c), increasing significantly the value of our exports, which would enable us to become an efficient food exporter.

Finally on this point, we as a nation must aim to produce for the market requirements rather than market what is produced — produce to suit the market place, whether at home or abroad. The Government obviously, with those in the various facets of the food industry, have a key role to play in this important area.

I have made certain suggestions on the serious employment question and how it may be resolved in part by a more organised, stimulated and vibrant agricultural sector. I must, however, stress that the absolute interdependence of our agricultural and non-agricultural sectors on each other must be more firmly established. A positive set of policies directed at this must be introduced. Only by a greater realisation by all concerned can we hope to achieve the very positive results from agriculture towards solving our serious unemployment and balance of payments positions which exist and which will not go away of their own accord. All productive arms of our economy must be developed simultaneously as a matter of urgency. That involves ensuring that while developing agriculture we will not neglect the development of industry and tourism, two key sectors in our economy.

Farmers at present have major problems with seriously reduced margins arising from a total imbalance in the price/cost ratio of their production. This must be redressed before any real progress can be achieved. The economic problems in agriculture are due to the very low income per farm family, with very few exceptions. Of course this is creating major social problems which must be corrected.

The farming community, too, are severely hit by the unemployment problem. The very large number of young persons at present who cannot get jobs also include a large number of farmers' sons and daughters who have been forced to join dole queues.

For those willing to work society has an obligation to provide gainful, meaningful employment if it is at all possible. The Government, acting for the community, have a definite obligation in this area.

So that people will not underestimate the importance of agricultural exports, they represent 35 per cent of our total exports. Another very telling point is that for each £100 worth of agricultural exports, only £20 is imported — we have a net £80 return from exports. This shows agriculture to be a net winner. In 1972 we had a cattle population as high as we have this year.

On employment in agriculture, 20 per cent of the work force are directly employed in farming, 7 per cent are engaged in what is known as the food and drink sector, for example meat factories, fertiliser plants, co-op creameries and feed compounding. Eighteen per cent of the work force nationally are employed in the service sector, persons servicing agriculture. There is therefore a total of 45 per cent directly and indirectly engaged in agriculture.

It must be stated that the inequality in the cuts in social welfare are to be deplored. Cuts have been made in some areas without regard to the very serious effects they will have on the least privileged sections of our society. At the same time benefits have been extended to some without any reference to their income levels. The results are that we have a reduction in benefits for people at the lowest income level and an increase for those at the higher income level. We cannot seriously expect people to support moderation in public spending if it is to be carried out in this unjust way.

I said at the outset that the adoption of a realistic and comprehensive policy would alleviate our situation. I would just like to confirm that. Many of the job losses taking place are in fact in the agricultural sector. I am aware there is an overall economic plan: there is also a specific plan in relation to agriculture, but let us all be a little more conscious of the contribution that agriculture can make to this country rather than to knock it all the time.

Before I conclude I want to highlight a point on the unemployment question. It was a matter referred to yesterday by Senator Howard, the Bombardier bus plant in Shannon. I think it is absolutely disgraceful that 650 persons are going to be unemployed there over the next number of months if the present proposals are carried through. This is a very serious situation and in fact the total cost would only be something between £200,000 and £400,000.

There are many other areas I had hoped to discuss but I will conclude by saying — I think people generally acknowledge that we do not have good leadership at this present time — to this House and to the country that there is now an urgency to get Deputy Garrett FitzGerald as Taoiseach of this country, a man of ability, integrity and vision who is capable of bringing the country out of the economic and financial morass it is in at present.

First of all, I would not have much quibble with the motion itself except that there is a part of it which I could not agree with where it refers to "inequitable cutbacks".

But before I go on to the motion I must refer to some remarks about the farming community made here yesterday by a Senator. He said that he hoped that the debate would not be petty, personal or political but he went into the greatest bit of farming-bashing I have heard for a long time. He talked about the amount of subsidy given to farmers and I would like to remind him that the weight of that subsidy goes to his particular products, the administration of those services, and what the farmers get is small in comparison to what is supposed to be given towards agriculture.

Then he spoke about the fact that we did not have experts to look into things. Again, I can assure him that it is his products who were the experts advising this country for the last 20 years or more. If experts like those were the answer to all our problems I can assure you that this would be a country flowing with milk and honey. It is far from it. I will not say any more about farming as other Senators have adequately discussed farming but farming in my opinion is neither a profession not a business, but a vocation because it takes great dedication and hard work. It can go on from 6 a.m. until 12 p.m. in the course of a day and anything the farmers get they richly deserve. To talk about confiscating their land is highly ridiculous. But of course his speech was wide-ranging; many people of that calibre could write ten pages of foolscap and speak for three hours about the shape of a new penny and never once say it was round.

We heard some talk about nationalisation and nationalising our banks. It is fair to say that the banks look after and take care of the money of the conservatives and the people who work hard and in the words of the Gospel "earn their bread by the sweat of their brow" and make it available to young men of the same calibre and opinions who want to set up in business. One need only look at the number of small industries in this country today that are creating a lot of employment. Without the county development teams and the co-operation of banks those small industries could not be got off the ground. In my own little village as a result of assistance from the county development team and the banks we have five small industries catering for 50 people.

I believe the answer to our employment problems, by and large, depends on small industries because the big outlets have become too unwieldy and we have taken away the workers' pride. In a small unit a man has a pride in his work and the employer has a pride in him. When a man becomes, as men do in big outlets, a glorified convict, a number in a computer, his pride is gone and when his pride goes he looks for something else, by way of more money, better hours and so on. The solution must be to get back to small and beautiful and encourage more small, privately-owned industries. It is the multiplicity of those that will in the long run solve a lot of our unemployment problems.

I would suggest to the Government and to the Minister that to help further in that regard we should find some simpler system than the present PRSI. Insurance must be paid but with the present PRSI if somebody has four or five people employed one of them is doing books for the State. A small unit cannot carry that overhead. We should get back to some system such as when we had the card to stamp and an employer had only to go to the post office, buy the stamps, put them on the cards and that was the end of the story. Today it is too complicated and the cost is too great. I also believe that it would be of great assistance if VAT could be imposed at wholesale level, because again it is taking up too much time of the small industry's personnel. In very many cases they cannot afford to carry it. I was speaking during the week to a man who three years ago was employing 26 people. He is employing nine now; next year he intends it to be six and the following year three, something that he can handle himself, because administration with all of this on top of him is too much. So we will have to find some simpler system. If we want 18 per cent VAT let us put on 22 per cent at wholesale. It would cut out a lot of book-keeping and a lot of administration costs for small industries. That is very important.

If we are to work really at unemployment, then some system will have to be found to get more employment for our youth. The reason we do not have as much employment as we would like for our youth today is that in the civil service by and large there are too many married women who could do without the work. We see them on television, listen to them on women's radio programmes and they tell us they are there because it gives them life fulfilment. However, at the same time their daughters are looking for jobs. Surely such people could find fulfilment in society without taking jobs from the young people, because they are only there for the status symbol. I accept that many married women have to to go out to work.

All politicians are, in their own right, social workers and in their own way see to it that no person is hurt or hindered if possible. We also know that there are many people who could be taken out of that work force so that our young people could get jobs.

The Government might consider a five- or ten-year interest-free mortage scheme provided such people gave up their jobs and made work available. The granting of a greater gratuity to such people would encourage them to leave. Families are suffering. We have too many latch-key kids in our society and they are the cause of juvenile delinquency and other problems. Those of us who have reared a family know that a child on returning from school likes to tell his or her mother the achievements or problems that occurred. Today a child returning from school does not get motherly care because, unfortunately, the mother is out working.

There should be some way to balance that gap and create a greater home life. If we do that we will at the same time create employment for our youth. Our youth are excellent but some of them unfortunately have bad habits and get into difficulties. It is our society, and our age group, that are to blame. A child is not born with bad habits. Whatever children get involved in is as a result of what they learn from their elders. It is up to us to chart the road for them and ensure we make home life what it was in our time, a better and a more wholesome life. That can be achieved by some of the diversification I mentioned. Many people who are working would gladly retire at 55 or 60. I believe that if we had a system whereby when a worker had 20 or 21 years service, instead of having this 65 age limit, if he so wished, he could draw his pension we would create more employment for our youth. We must try to improve employment and get people back to work.

We should have a maximum and minimum wage. Whether one is a professor or consultant earning £30,000, £40,000 or £50,000 a year one can only wear one suit of clothes at a time and eat one dinner at a time. A man working on the road also has to rear his family, and a loaf of bread costs him the same. It is ridiculous that some people can earn £20,000 or £30,000 while other poor unfortunates have to rear a family on £4,000 or £5,000. Yet, when it comes to wage increases, we give them on a percentage basis. A man who gets 5 per cent of £40 or £50 does not get much. However, a man getting 5 per cent of £20,000 is making a kill and that is not right. I do not think any man, no matter what position he holds, should get that type of money because we are all part of society and part of what is needed to keep the world going. Those men would not be in £20,000 or £30,000 jobs if the majority of people were not in small jobs. Who would make our roads, make and clean our clothes, or make our shoes? If a man could not get food or clothes a lot of money would not be of much use to him.

Every man, regardless of his work, should have a certain amount of money to give him a reasonable standard of living. I do not believe any man should get too much money in order to give him too high a standard of living. I heard today talk about socialism. Socialism is grand. Boys and girls are socialists when they leave college, but when they go into society they become the biggest capitalists. Make no mistake about that. It is a pity that the socialist ideas they promote and propagate by marching and shouting in their early years are not carried into manhood. If that happened we would have a great country.

There was a lot of talk today about cutbacks. We all know that there is a great abuse of social and health services today. But who is doing most talking about the cutbacks in the health services? Is it the medical card holders, the doctors or the chemists? I can assure the House that there are too many people in our society who are making of the poor of our country what the tinker made out of the borrowed child. It is a bloody shame for them. Chemists today are handing out what they describe as an important notice to medical card holders. That notice states that they regret to inform the public that — in big black print — they will have to pay, the implication being, of course, that they will have to pay for everything. The health cutbacks are only for lacquers, hair-dos and what have you and for services that were abused. We know the service was much abused. When the matter came before the courts we heard that people were collecting items in chemist shops and selling them to street traders. Those abuses must be cut back. No country or society can afford to make millionaires out of people who are well off at the expense of the poor.

One must consider that some of the items only cost 20p or so but that a doctor gets £2 to write that on a bit of paper and a chemist gets £2 more to put it on a bit of wire.

Why should the poor have to pay more than the rich? Is it not time that those people "copped" themselves on and accepted that they are the culprits who are robbing the poor, that they are the people who are taking it off them? They should agree to take money for what they prescribe. It is very important that this is brought home to them.

In the field of social welfare PRSI was a great thing. All the schemes brought in by various Governments were designed to help a certain category of people. But what has happened? Many people have now jumped on the bandwagon, many who do not deserve help. It is a well known fact that many people are employing four or five people while they, and those they are paying, are signing on the dole. Surely this must be stopped. We cannot afford to allow this to continue. Let us be honest about it.

One thing that is terribly wrong in our society today is that there is a great lack of honesty. Nobody seems to think that the word exists. We hear much talk about liberation and freedom but the good Lord handed us only ten small rules. He had not paper to write them on, only a tablet of stone. I am afraid that in our modern world those ten regulations that are so valuable, if kept and adhered to, have been lost in a deluge of all kinds of pollution at present. We must be honest with ourselves and with others. If we are, we can live together. We have not lost our pride but it has been taken from us.

We must have a better relationship between management and workers. It is hard to expect a worker not to take a day off or not to go sick when he sees his boss coming in to work in his big Merc at 12 o'clock in the day and going off again at four or five in the evening, or when he takes up the paper and sees him at this race meeting or that race meeting. We must start at the top.

Any organisation which has been nationalised is losing millions of pounds, CIE in particular. Take the Irish Road Hauliers Association which I represent in this House. They employ many people and they make their business pay because there is a personal touch. They do not have any monopolies. As Dean Swift once said, the boy is only as good as his master. The masters in all our public services are the great experts. A boy can hardly get a job without doing this or that examination. Unless he has half a dozen letters to his name he will not be even called for interview. Yet fellows, like myself, who are lucky to get two years at a local technical school, very often end up employing men. They can make businesses pay.

We heard a lot of talk today about education and training. What has happened to all the men we educated over the last number of years? What has happened to all those we trained? Only for the State they would be all out of work. Why do they not show the way and try to create employment and repay the debt they owe to society? It is due to the taxes that those of us who started work at 15 and 16 years of age paid that those services are available to them. It was because they had those services and could avail of them that they got very good positions in life but that should not give them a monopoly. They should not be able to make thousands of pounds while a poor working man has to do with less.

I thank the Taoiseach for coming here today. He has charted the road ahead and will continue to do so in his development plan. Many people have criticised the plan before they have even seen it. Some of us are in politics long enough to know that there was a time when all our elections were fought on what we did about emigration. It was a Fianna Fáil Government who brought out the First and Second Programmes for Economic Expansion. Those plans worked. They reduced emigration and created employment. I have no doubt that this new plan is geared to meet the present crisis. Before emigration had reached crisis proportions. We now have the same situation with regard to unemployment.

We have the best work force in Europe. Irishmen were always noted for their dedication and hard work. If given the right guidelines and environment, despite the world recession, our work force will rise to the occasion and we will be able to export goods to foreign markets as cheaply as any other country in Europe. Are we at home helping our work force? If so, why are shops full of imported rubbish? It is because we are buying it. What has gone wrong with our patriotism? Patriotism is, of course, a misnomer. Some people regard patriotism as putting a gun to a man's head and shooting him, or shouting "Up Ireland" or something like that. That is not patriotism. Patriotism is loving one's country and working for one's country. Why when we shop do we not ensure that we get Irish products? Why are we selling our souls for penny rolls? That is what we are doing. For the sake of a couple of paltry pence we are supporting some foreign industry and refusing to buy Irish products. It is time for every worker, family and those in public life to ensure that more Irish products are bought. In that way more jobs will be created. Ireland will then be a better country.

What is needed in this country is honesty, dedication and co-operation. Regardless of our politics, religion or views 80 per cent of the people want to make a go of this country. Sometimes we disagree on how best to do that job. We disagree because in our anxiety we want to do good. A small percentage try to wreck it. We think too much about that small percentage. It is time that we were all honest enough to speak out and say we abhor people who speak ill of or abuse our State and society.

We have two Members in the House from Northern Ireland and they are interested in and dedicated to the unification of the country and to making the country work as a unit. We should try to get greater unity and co-operation from Fair Head in Antrim to Mizen Head in Cork. Unity, co-operation and dedication are the key notes to ridding our country of trouble.

The biggest drain on our resources today is the money it takes to repair damage done and the cost of security. Millions and millions of pounds which could be spent on building houses, installing water schemes and improving society have to be spent on repairing what has been knocked down by a small minority. This is wasteful. We must try to get across to those people that we all want to work to improve this country. Greater co-operation should be encouraged, North and South. We in the west are living in a cul-de-sac as are the people of Fermanagh and south Tyrone.

The Senator has two minutes to conclude.

Anything that works well works in a circuit. If we could improve working conditions, public relations and have greater co-operation across the Border it would augur well for the unity of the people apart from unity of the country. If the people unite to work together for a better Ireland, I believe we will achieve much. Members of this House can play their part. We were elected to give the lead, to give advice. What we say and do is read and talked about. I appeal to every Member here to consider what I have said and to remember the words of Thomas Davis when he said, "Meetings and marches are not sufficient. We must work our lands and correct our failings".

I should like to compliment Senator Farrell on his comments. I am surprised to see such a realistic person in this House. He said that in his town there are five small units employing 50 people. The Senator was quite right when he said we should build many more such small units.

There are few politicians who are prepared to say that married women should be given an incentive not to work. The Senator was quite right in what he said. I liked his ideas regarding a tax rebate or a tax incentive to encourage married women to stop working and stay at home. He spoke about children coming home from school and not finding their mothers at home. The Senator has been very realistic in his comments and I compliment him.

I get the impression from the Government and from some Senators on the other side that things are rosy in our State. Listening to Government speakers one could wonder why we are in the Seanad today. Senator Ryan yesterday gave the impression that all the trouble started because of the problems encountered by the Coalition Government in 1977. I wish to point out that in 1977 the current budget deficit was £201 million. There was a recession between 1973 and 1977 but in 1975 the then Minister for Finance, Deputy Richie Ryan, started to solve our problems. Unfortunately he was known as "Richie Ruin" but I think, having regard to the present situation, he should be called "Richie Right" because he put the situation right.

In 1977 the current budget deficit as a percentage of GNP was 3.7 per cent and when Fianna Fáil took power in June of that year the books were in order. Yet, one year after, our current budget deficit was £397 million and the rate was 6.2 per cent. I do not know why that happened because there was not a recession at that time. I should like to give the House some examples. I know that today money is costing quite a lot because of our inflation difficulties. In 1975 our inflation rate was 22.3 per cent, in 1976 it was 18.8 per cent and in 1977, because of the action taken by the then Minister for Finance, it was down to 12.5 per cent. When we left office in June 1977 the rate was 6.9 per cent. I accept that is not a yearly figure but the inflation rate in the middle of 1978 was running at 7.5 per cent. I do not know why the inflation rate rose to 13.4 per cent between 1978 and the middle of 1979 at a time when we were not experiencing a recession.

How can we say that the Government of the day were doing their job properly? The problems were created between 1977 and 1981 and I ask the question whether the Government were able to govern. Why was it that at a time when there was not a recession the figures in respect of current budget deficit as a percentage of GNP rose from 3.7 per cent to 6.2 per cent? It is obvious that the country was governed badly. The figure rose again in 1978 and 1979 to 7.1 per cent. It was reduced from 1979 to 1980 to 6.4 per cent but it rose again in 1981 to 7.8 per cent.

There was a change of Taoiseach in 1979. I have a personal feeling for the Taoiseach. I think he is a good politician and I thought at that time things were going to come right. Fianna Fáil had a majority of 20 seats and two-and-a-half years to stay in Government but there was no serious attempt to put things right. Yet this morning the Taoiseach came here and gave us the impression that everything would be put right. Why was that not done between 1979 and 1981? Between 1979 and 1981 it cost us an additional £280 million in respect of borrowing. The Taoiseach made no attempt to cut expenditure. The question must be asked why he did not do so. Now he comes before us and says everything must be done at a time when he has not a mandate. He did not attempt to do anything to rectify the situation when he had the opportunity some years ago. Everyone in Fianna Fáil are talking about showing concern but they were the first people not to show such concern. That has to be questioned.

I listened to some Senators on the opposite side talking about a Taoiseach who was on his knees for a vote. I consider that a personal embarrassment for a man of whom it cannot be said did any wrong towards our country. I do not think he was on his knees looking for a vote. He is a tall man and when he was talking to somebody perhaps he wanted to be on a level with him. I say there is nothing wrong with anybody going on his knees looking for a vote. I am sure many of us do it on Sunday mornings. That former Taoiseach may have been on his knees looking for a vote but it did not cost £100 million for one vote, as happened in another case. The question must be asked whether that was honest government.

This morning we were told that everything must be done now. I believe there should be cuts but why were they not introduced in 1979? From 1977 onwards Fianna Fáil had the opportunity. The then Taoiseach was a Corkman, a very respected man but, at the same time, he made no attempt to keep our expenditure in order. That was not fair to the people. Fianna Fáil went into office in 1977 and gave out the goodies but they did not mention the bad things in the manifesto. It is utterly appalling to think of that manifesto. There was no reason the public should not have been told at the time that they could not get the benefit of the abolition of car tax and rates. Instead of that, quite unbelievable increases were given to people in the public service. That is when our expenditure went out of order. Now we are being asked to say that those same people are fit to govern. It is not fair to the people. I am rather surprised that Senator Farrell has not said this to his own people. He has been quite right in the points he has made. There are areas where cuts can be made.

Regarding local authority workings. I come form a local authority area, Cork city. The Minister for the Environment, Deputy Burke, last Friday said to us that local rents will have to be increased from next January. He is probably right, and there are people in local authority accommodation who should be paying more for accommodation that is costing the State a good deal of money. I do not deny that. However, let me emphasise, and I do not say this lightly, that politicians generally throughout the country created that situation. We are constantly pressing for accommodation for people who should not be getting it, yet one-third of our population are below the poverty line, and we must recognise that. I feel sorry for them, but at the same time how can we say that we are looking after the less well off when we are not doing so?

The Minister for the Environment is now saying that from January a serious look must be taken at local authority rents. The local authorities have not got the money to provide services, but the Minister is asking for more money from local authority tenants, again using local authorities as rubber stamps. Why is the onus of the local authority not laid on local councillors? By this means the cost of local administration would be reduced. Because the national politician is more interested in local affairs than he is in national affairs, every emphasis should be given to local authorities to look after themselves.

For example, in the Cork area last year we spent £27 million, which is a great deal of money. I make these suggestions to the Government for the good of society. We must be seen to put our priorities right, and we are not doing that. We are giving to some areas and starving other areas, again because of politics. More luck to Deputy Gregory if he got £58 million extra this year for Dublin and got away with it. He is perfectly right, and that is politics, but I would not applaud the Government of the day for doing it. I know there are people on the other side of the House delegated to speak about this matter and they are not doing so.

A very serious situation is arising, yet if money was pumped into one area how can we expect demands from other areas to cease? The situation is crazy, and that is government today. The Government are doing that, yet they want to be complimented. They will not and should not get compliments.

I wish to comment again on the £27 million which we spent over the year. A sum of £12 million was allocated to us for housing from the Department of the Envrionment. We spent £9 million, which is a fair amount, on wages during the year, but the rest of it, something in the region of £6 million, had to be spent on sewerage, water jobs, environment, roads and so on. In regard to the proper distribution of moneys, if each local authority were allowed to look after their own affairs with their own money then proper distribution would follow. As an example we can ask why so much went into housing. We spent £10 million on the building of houses and £2 million on loans. The £10 million was spent on the building of 300 homes. Therefore, 300 families took up £10 million. That is not realistic. How can we bring it about that each local authority would get one capital grant to do what they want to do in their own area?

Local authority councillors from every side of life, Fianna Fáil, Fine Gael and so on, are delegated personally to local areas and they can decide what is best for their areas. They should get recognition for that, but they are not getting it. I am not saying that they should not build homes for the less well off; in fact, I am in favour of doing so and if we proceed as I suggest we will build more houses for the less well off. We all know that people are going into local authority housing who are more than well off and can with some assistance do something for themselves.

Admittedly, in 1980 the Fianna Fáil Government promised people a £3,000 subsidy if they were prepared to do something for themselves. That is a fair start, a good allocation and there is nothing wrong with it. Unfortunately, it comes over three years with an allocation of £750 twice in the first year, £500 twice a year in the second year and £250 twice in the third year. A local authority should have the right to say to a local person who is seeking accommodation: "We cannot accommodate you in a £30,000 house"— the cost today is in that region — If you will take out a local authority loan — the Housing Finance Agency are there — with the subsidy of £3,000, then we can give you so much money to do something for yourself." In other words, they should take money out of the £10 million or £12 million available. For example, if we get £10 million let us build with £8 million and the £2 million can be used to assist people to accommodate themselves. Instead we are going to give them a £30,000 or £40,000 house and subsidise them for the rest of their lives to the amount of nearly £60 per week. This applies throughout the country, and it is crazy, utterly stupid spending and must stop. It is a priority area where more could be done and the £8 million could be given to the less well off to accommodate more of them. That is not being done. Are the Government prepared to look at such matters or is any serious consideration to be given to them?

I would like to consider the question of buying land for sale by local authorities. Unfortunately, one cannot buy land any more here because we do not like lease agreements. It must be freehold. That is fair enough, there is nothing wrong with that. I am aware that one can buy out a lease and I am in agreement with that because I believe in people doing something for themselves and owning their own property. That is good for our society, but unfortunately if a local authority in any part of the country have land for sale they can sell it only at a once-off price. An example of this is Cork where we sell land for anybody to buy. In particular I am talking about a person on the local authority list. To get him off that list let us try to help him. If he wants to build a house, why can we not create a situation whereby that land should be given to him? No, we do not do that any more. We tell him that we will sell the land to him and that we will service it fully for him. Fair play, it is grand to see a fully serviced site available, but the cost is £8,000. We know that the person cannot buy the land for £8,000. Why can we not give a lease agreement to him over 20, 25 or 30 years and ask him for £200 or £300 a year for the same land? After all, we must admit readily that we bought that land with money that was given to us over 35 years anyway, yet we want the money from him straightaway.

That is another area where we should give people the incentive to do something for themselves and we are not doing so. It would be good for society to show that we are doing that. The Government of the day should be showing that we are doing it, and they would save a great deal of money thereby, as is obvious.

I do not want to knock any particular Government, but questions must be put. Local authorities in general are now asked to collect more money in their own areas by charging extra for services provided. At the same time we are imposing on people who already are over-taxed, increased taxation and extra rates, because there are no phoney rates on commercial businesses.

In 1977, Fianna Fáil abolished rates on private dwellings. In fact, this was already half-done, because the Coalition Government were committed to taking the remainder away and I am not saying whether or not that should have continued. Rates will never come back and we are all realistic enough to know that. At the same time, when the Coalition were in power, and promised to abolish rates, they were committed to giving to local authorities the rates amount being collected in their areas. Fianna Fáil were not committed to that and local authorities, corporations and councils were let run down because of that non-commitment. When rates were not collected, no extra money was coming in. The local authorities were allowed only a certain inadequate amount extra per year on the commercial rates. There is widespread despondency because of the critical financial situation of all local authorities.

There are directives from Ministers that moneys must be collected elsewhere. How can we ask people in commercial business for extra money for collecting refuse? In Cork, for example we are ordered to collect money for refuse. The businessman is already paying rates and extra taxes and business is down because of bad Government. Admittedly, there is a recession but we must be seen to show an example in central Government and we are not doing so. That is why people are cribbing about social welfare and so many people being on the dole. Senator Lanigan said yesterday that we knock people on the dole. He is perfectly right, we do knock them. The vast majority of people here are conservatives. They do swing to the right, he is correct. We are knocking them, but the onus for bad management rests on the Government of the day, and with nobody else.

Expenditure throughout the State over the last five years was unbelievable and where did it go? Into non-productive areas: extra teachers, extra guards, extra civil servants. Proper management of finances must come about and it is not happening. That is why we are now being told by our international bankers to put our house in order and then we will get extra money. Now we are telling local authorities that they are getting no money, they must collect it locally. Senator Farrell made the point in regard to small factories employing five or six that we want to take extra money from them for collecting a couple of bags of refuse and they will not pay. In Cork the business people are saying "No way". The Government are creating widespread animosity because of this bad management. Are they not prepared to give a block grant to a region, and let them do what they want in their area?

This would result in a better society, a better area and a better councillor at the end of the day and, might I say, a better local and national Deputy because, if he is not producing the goods with the money provided, they will get somebody else? Local councils should be given more responsibility. The national politician wants more responsibility than the local councillor because of the votes. He can ask what the councils have done with the moneys and if they are not using it right, they will not get any more. That is the way the Minister and the Department should be working. If I want to build a toilet on the quays of Cork, I have to go to the Minister for the money, which is utterly crazy. Local authorities should be given that responsibility. There are areas where more housing is needed. I am very conscious of the fact that Dublin is rapidly deteriorating and so are Cork, Limerick and Kilkenny, although I understand that Kilkenny is not that bad. There is an onus on us to create employment for our children and a proper social environment. We are not doing that. We cannot repair footpaths, or repair roads because the moneys are going elsewhere, into non-productive areas. Could I ask where did the money go between 1977 and 1979? Was there anything produced? No, extra moneys were given out — a massive increase to teachers, I understand. Senator Farrell spoke about people starving and massive increases are given to this type of person. Where are our priorities? I fail to understand it. We cannot come along here today and say that Fianna Fáil should get a clap on the back.

I welcome the opportunity to speak in this debate. We all recognise the serious problems and difficulties which confront the country. These have not arisen overnight and, indeed, they are not unique to Ireland. The world depression which we are now experiencing is in its third year. Much of the world, and especially the western world, is experiencing severe economic difficulties. High unemployment, high inflation, high interest rates and massive budget deficits are formidable problems. They are ones for which there are no easy or quick solutions. Many of the main causes of these problems have been identified during this debate.

However, as far as Ireland is concerned there is little we can do, or indeed little that we could have done, about the main underlying causes of our problems. We had no control over the massive oil price increases which occurred during the last decade. The technological developments of recent years have had their impact on the unemployment situation but again there is nothing that we can do as far as technological progress is concerned. The growing competition from developing countries, too, has contributed to the difficulties of many of our manufacturing industries. But again this is something that we have to face up to and to learn to live with. To add to our problems we in Ireland have the fastest growing young labour force in western Europe. All these factors have combined to exacerbate our unemployment situation and bring about the serious budget problems that this country faces today. Every section of the community will have to be prepared to make a genuine effort and, indeed, some sacrifices, if we are to come to grips with these problems. The current budget deficit must be brought under control and must be eventually eliminated. I agree with the Government that this can only be done by reducing public spending. The scope for further tax increases is nonexistent. I recognise that public spending cuts are, and will continue to be, unpalatable but however unpalatable the medicine, it is the only effective medicine in our present situation.

Reference has been made by many speakers in this debate to the existence of abuses within the social welfare system. The Government are taking positive and effective action to eliminate these abuses and as a result of this action the widespread abuses which we all know are now taking place will be eliminated without affecting the genuine recipients of social welfare benefits and allowances.

As regards the recently announced cutbacks in the health board sector. I agree with the decision of the Minister to leave it up to each health board to determine when the necessary economies should be made. However, it would now appear that some health boards decided that cutbacks should be made in areas where essential services would be affected. The reason for this is to generate the maximum possible public outcry against the cutbacks in question, and I deplore this tactic. I am satisfied that significant economies can be made in the health boards without any effect on essential health services.

Health and social welfare are only two of the areas where public expenditure will have to be cut back. I recognise, and I am satisfied that the majority of the people of the country recognise, that the cutbacks will have to apply right across the board in every area of public spending. This is something we will have to accept. I am confident that, as in the areas of health and social welfare, such cutbacks will be selective and will not affect essential services. However, public service and public spending cutbacks alone will not be enough to get us out of our present difficulties and put us back on the road to prosperity and progress. A great national effort will be needed if we are to get ourselves back on course in the shortest possible time. Much hard work and the maximum utilisation of all our resources will be essential.

The Government should designate 1983 as national effort year. In 1984 we will celebrate the centenary of the founding of the Gaelic Athletic Association. In what better way could we as a nation prepare for such celebration than by designating 1983 as national effort year, a year in which there would be a great reawakening and revival of genuine and true patriotism? The discipline of such a year would be beneficial to the world community as well as to the economy. Such a year could be one during which every individual and every section of the community could make a contribution. Our farmers would make a special effort to increase production. Our industrial workers would improve their efficiency and increase output; absenteeism and industrial disputes would become bad words. Community projects would be undertaken throughout the length and the breadth of the country. People would buy goods of Irish manufacture and not the imported rubbish to which Senator Farrell referred; people would take their holidays in Ireland, and so on. The Irish people would respond to such a call and to such a challenge. The benefits to the nation would be enormous and the contribution which such a year would make to eliminating our present problems would be significant.

In the areas of agriculture, forestry, fisheries and tourism, there is a tremendous potential for increased expansion and more jobs. These are sectors of the economy where investment of resources would yield real returns to the economy. These are the sectors which can contribute more than any other to the solution of the unemployment problem. I welcome the news that the preparation of the development plan for agriculture is nearing completion and I am confident that this plan, in conjunction with the forthcoming economic plan, will provide the framework within which we can move forward rapidly towards the achievement of financial stability and renewed economic growth and prosperity.

An economic and social crisis — that is exactly what we have, particularly when we think of the frightening rate of redundancies. Almost hourly we are hearing of lay-offs, and nothing is being done to try to replace those lost jobs.

The current industrial crisis, encompassing falling output and increased unemployment combined with major financial difficulties, will not evaporate of its own accord. There has been much goodwill in this debate, but goodwill is not enough. The cutbacks in the areas of health, housing, social welfare and public services are the effects of causes. Some of those problems could have been avoided. Over the past 15 years there have been very rapid changes in Ireland, many more in that 15 year period than in any comparable period in recent times. Sometimes these changes were for the better. Emigration stopped, not by any act of any Government, but because there was nowhere to go. Later I will show that that is a fact. Some of those changes were welcome, especially the increase in the population.

The growth in unemployment is not only depressing but also frightening. Together with the question of high unemployment we have many people looking for work on a first time basis. We have the fastest growing population in the EEC. The full impact of that was realised some time ago. We would not be in so much trouble now if that fact had been approached properly. That did not happen and, if it registered at all with the Fianna Fáil Party, it was of recent origin. When the Coalition tried to do something about our problems — and I am not saying I went along with that endeavour but at least it was an effort — Fianna Fáil did not follow it up when they took office.

If I had spoken before the Taoiseach I would have said that the Government do not seem to know where to go, whom to see, or what to say, but having listened to the Taoiseach apparently they do know where to go, whom to see and what to say. They now have the political will to do the things they had not got the political will to do in 1977 and in other years when the danger signs were there. We have been allowed to reach a very dangerous low. I do not want to go too far along that line because, if I do, people may say I agreed to the recall of the Seanad for the purpose of political sniping and also to use the safety net of generalities to get at the Government. That was not my purpose.

I will make an admission. I was not too keen on having the Seanad recalled but I agreed in the first analysis because I felt that we had a duty to talk the situation out. Looking at it politically, while it may not have been the right action to take, it did give the Taoiseach a platform to say again what he had said on television after becoming Taoiseach. If anybody remembers that interview he will recall that the Taoiseach's diagnosis of the whole problem areas we were in was very good indeed. Here was a man with a very clear mind telling us about the problems that lay ahead. But after that show was over and in the interests of political survival he went the other way. Now we have given him an opportunity in the Seanad to say the very same thing all over again. Quite frankly I want to be a help but I would have to have something more than what was said on television. I would have to have evidence of genuine goodwill in trying to rectify the country's problems rather than the question of what is best for political survival. I hope that this debate has served a purpose in forming public opinion. It is my wish that if we have a positive critical analysis of the whole situation, the press would be helpful in this matter, particularly in trying to shape public opinion. The fact is that we are in a bad situation and we all have an obligation, no matter what our criticisms of the Government may be, to play our part in helping to resolve the difficulties. In this regard, the press have an important role to play, too. If something has to be done it has to be done collectively.

The debate should have the effect of giving leadership. Many of the suggestions that were put forward would not be acceptable initially. If a genuine plan emerges the media can go a long way towards shaping it to form public opinion so that we can all make a contribution to it. This is not the time to talk about elections. The people are not looking for elections now. They are looking for Government. Even in Opposition we have an obligation to ensure that the Government do their job. If this debate serves no other purpose than to highlight that we will have done a good job.

In facing up to the task the Government must be prepared to admit that they were sometimes mistaken, sometimes indifferent and sometimes downright dishonest in the interest of political survival. If one is to win goodwill he must not antagonise people and try to influence them at the same time. And the people have been antagonised by the Taoiseach after he was elected setting out this diagnosis of what was wrong and then proceeding to go in another direction. The public are much more aware politically than they ever have been. We are still in the area of having hung Dáils for a long time to come.

From time to time we hear a good deal about patriotism. This goes no deeper than the cynicism of flag waving, of making speeches about the North, the so-called enemies, and of how loyal we are to the Catholic Church and the profit motive. All of this may be very useful in its own way but not when we are in an awful situation and trying to get our economy back on the rails. It is because of political considerations that the economy is not back on the rails. The Government have refused to manage the economy actively. I hope the Taoiseach will stand by what he said today and that now we will see a genuine attempt to manage the economy. What we have had up to now was repeated assertions that there was not much wrong with the economy. Yet this morning in the Taoiseach's statement, which I considered to be very good, we find an admission that there is a lot wrong with the economy. He said, though, that it can be put right. Let us hope he is right. But if the Government are to put it right they cannot just drift aimlessly without policies or without a sense of direction and bending to every political wind. That is only political expediency. But the economic consequences of this type of thing is disastrous and it does not assist in leading the country out of its present short-term problems and towards its long-term needs.

What is happening in the area of job creation is worrying. There are a few things missing. For example an intellectual framework such as that provided by the NESC is not taken sufficiently seriously. Their advice is not always acted on. National, social and economic plans are vital to any planning. What we have had most of the time is programming. This does not provide any lasting effects. New structures are needed to co-ordinate the various aspects of social services. In this respect Senator Robinson proposed some select committees and I would support her in that. She mentioned select committees on education, health and social welfare, agriculture, economic development, employment and marriage and family law reform. I would support all of those. They are greatly needed.

The former Deputy Richie Ryan, when he was Minister, in his budget speech of 1976 accepted the NESC forecast that the population would increase to 3.3 million and also that there would be a work force of 1.8 million. Also on that occasion he talked of the need to start creating 155,000 jobs. Between 1976 and 1980 in manufacturing industry an average of 31,000 new jobs a year would have been needed. This was a massive challenge. That was the position then but now it would call for an awful lot more. I am not an economist so I do not know exactly what the figure would be but having regard to the rate of job losses at the moment, I suppose we would be talking about the creation of anything up to 40,000 to 42,000 jobs a year in industry. That is well beyond the capacity of any existing Government policy. It is also evidently beyond the capacity of the IDA central policy, particularly in these very bad circumstances in which we find ourselves.

We are now finding that private enterprise is only half the answer. You cannot solve the problem if you are going to rely on half of the answer to give you the solution. That will not do the whole job. The missing half must be brought in. The State must be brought out of its present supportive role. It is confined to that but it has got to be brought out of it. It is confined to that in the exclusive interest of private enterprise. This will no longer suffice. There is a crisis. What might have been unpalatable or hard to take in the past should be a little more palatable if one is trying to solve the problems in a serious situation. That is why the State must be placed at the centre of the economic development process.

Public enterprise, its role and purpose should be examined to bring it into the economic development process. New attitudes must emerge, as must new institutions such as a State development corporation and a national planning commission. A State development corporation was frowned on. But if one looks at the statsfortag in Sweden that worked well as did the national planning commission in France. When looking for answers to problems one should look at how they may have been somewhat solved elsewhere and you take guidance from that comparison. That is why I am suggesting a national development corporation. This suggestion was not taken out of the air; somebody had seen how successful the idea had been elsewhere. The criterion for examining such a proposition should be to establish its effectiveness for the task. Does it operate satisfactorily; does it provide the jobs? We should not get bogged down with ideologies or anything else. I am suggesting it as a possible way of assisting in the creation of additional jobs.

The problem of the provision of jobs of course is also an economic one because of the abuses it shows. Coupled with that, if we do not do something effective about our economy backed by a detailed economic plan it would not be an exaggeration to say that then we could be taking in one another's washing. Manufacturing industry has the challenge, must accept it, and, I believe, will. However, it need help not only by way of handouts but by a more effective mixed economy mentality. That means placing the State at the centre of the economic development process to provide that missing half portion. The "knock-on" of not providing jobs — if such one can call it — brings about greater tax evasion, greater social welfare abuses, an increase in crime — all cost factors on the State. Generally speaking the normal standard of behaviour is reduced to a level at which the attitude is: if it is not provided we will acquire it. This is the reaction. If you like it is the reaction of the "haves" who can cheat through legal means and legitimate institutions. I do not condone that attitude but we must remember that we created the affluent society. We all played a part in its creation. If one fosters something, if one creates the conditions for its growth, then that is inevitable. I dislike repeating this. I have been listening to talk about the creation of employment since I was a very young boy and it has never happened, it will not happen. It is not within the capacity of the private enterprise system to do so alone and, with a half-hearted sort of mixed economy attempt, there is no way it can be achieved. The problems can be rendered less acute but not remedied.

On the question of strategies it can be said that people were ample reason to exploit situations. We should be a little careful when talking about the abuses of the social welfare system. A person by the name of Murray researched that problem some years ago, not in its present crisis situation. He was able to put his finger on the extent of its abuse. Perhaps we should get him to undertake the task again, when we would get a truer picture of its present extent.

On the question of poverty, not alone should the effects of planning be examined on a costs and economic analysis but it must contain a good social concept. By and large, industry examines their problems on a cost benefit analysis with very little social concept. Governments tend to do that also, inflicting great hardship on significant sections of disadvantaged people. Relative to our general standard of living it must be remembered that people are suffering a lot. For example, the household budget survey of 1973 showed that the top 20 per cent of income earners received 45 per cent of the nation's income while at the bottom 27 per cent receive less than 5 per cent. That may sound an old cliche but it happens to be a fact. This is what the survey revealed. The 1979 household budget survey data showed such inequality to be persistent. I have no doubt that another survey would illustrate that the situation had worsened. In that survey it was realised that 25 per cent of this poverty was to be found in the homes of working class people with 25 per cent or thereabouts in farming households.

It is a serious problem. Of course, deprivation extends well beyond the question of low incomes. There is the question also of access to housing, justice and other publicly-provided services. New departures are essential to avoid a perpetuation of these inequalities in the job area. I say the same for the poverty area. I mean this particularly in the tax and redistribution areas. Tinkering with annual budgets will not solve the problem. At present one would need the wisdom of Solomon to solve this question of this redistribution because the money is not there. There is no way one can grant any great concessions to the people who need them. I am rather worried about this area. I foresee the poor again becoming the victims of whatever plan we devise, that they will receive the worst deal. Though we may have forgotten social concept on other occasions, let us not forget it on this one. Co-operative education must form an essential part of any plan. Technical instruction, co-operative principles and co-operative training cannot be omitted from any such plan.

On the question of Government borrowing, in 1981 the Exchequer debts amounted to £947 million. Taking the income tax receipts for 1981 — £1,243,000—76p in every pound of that was utilised to pay interest on our national debt. Eighty-seven pence of every pound was provided by the PAYE sector, 23p of which went to foreigners. That is the tax situation as I dug it out of the books. The situation is incomparably worse now. For example, in 1981 the amount paid by the PAYE sector increased by £215 million and yet there was not sufficient to pay the interest on Government loans. The money borrowed was used for current expenditure which had no lasting benefit. It is no wonder that PAYE workers take to the streets.

We have been talking about infrastructures and all the rest of it but we are taking money in to pay for day-to-day financing of loans or for budget deficits and there is nothing left of the taxpayers money for productive investment. Consequently the people get no lasting value for the tax they pay and they are quite right to be very upset. The budget which put the Coalition Government out of office would have yielded benefits later this year or next year. The example given then and in Richie Ryan's day was not followed. Successive Fianna Fáil Governments failed to face up to the public, so much so that we are reaping the disadvantages of reckless borrowing, our inflation rate is twice the EEC average and our deficit is ten times that of the EEC average.

On television immediately after the election, the Taoiseach correctly diagnosed our ills but then he went off and did something different. The defenders of the Estimates in 1979 and 1980 were either deliberately dishonest or they were mistaken, and the people were set up for easy budgets. That did not help, but they cannot begin to bellyache now when they failed to face up to the problems at the beginning. Public values have been corrupted.

I now say to the Taoiseach: "We want to help. Today you again diagnosed the ailments, but this time take us down the road where we should be going rather than the road that will give you political survival". There is an obligation on all of us to see that honesty will be brought into budgetary estimating. One way to do it is to establish a budget committee as they have in the British House of Commons. The Joint Committee on State-sponsored Bodies have been doing excellent work. They have been doing work similar to what a budgetary committee would be doing.

There is today a lack of trust, and we need some sort of watchdog body. I plead for that. There is no room for tax cuts but the deficit must be decreased if we are to move into a healthy situation in the coming years. In real terms we cannot increase expenditure—the twin problem of being unable to take in more taxes and inability to spend more. Therefore, we are in for not one but a couple of hard winters and a few hard summers as well.

After what we have been hearing in the past few days there cannot be any doubt that we are going through a recession. I make that statement of fact because it cannot be emphasised too much that the world does not owe us a living, that the EEC does not owe us a living. At times we practise a great deal of self-deception. Indeed some of us are accomplished fugitives from ourselves and the sooner we learn not to lie to ourselves the better because to a certain extent all of us are in charge of our destiny. We should stop blaming others, blaming circumstances, and stop complaining because the world will not devote itself to making us happy.

In the matter of unemployment we seem to have lost our way. Certain jobs are available. Last week I read in the national newspapers of a County Meath garage owner looking for a mechanic. He offered a fellow £150 a week salary but the fellow told him he could make double that amount on the dole and nixers. Have any of you looked for somebody to take care of the house in times of illness or when going on holidays? It is practically impossible to get anyone to do chores of that kind. Have you looked for an electrician or a plumber recently? I have been waiting for one for a year and the plugs are still in a dangerous condition.

All of these jobs are available but the trouble is that we equate our worth, our sense of commitment, with certain types of work. Many of us feel that we only attain great personal nobility in such caring jobs as teaching and nursing, or rising to great heights in the academic field. Surely, doing any legitimate job as well as one can is in itself an admirable commitment. Our commitment should be to make our country a better place in which there will be prosperity.

Perhaps it is a promising sign that parents are beginning to realise that a totally academic education is not the only or the best education for their children. It has become obvious that many of our young graduates, BAs and MAs, cannot get jobs though our skilled craftworkers are in a good market for employment. The single most serious problem in the country is that unemployment is rising rapidly in a rapidly increasing population. Whatever problems the future may bring, because of our increased know-how we should be in a position to deal with them if we are prepared to use our hands as well as our heads—to use our hands for work and not just to receive handouts.

Women are now recognised for the important contribution they make at every level in the workscale. We have come a long way towards a better deal for women. The 1977 Equality Act was a good piece of legislation and I deplore the suggestions made that we should take a look at it. What do people want to do in this recession—make scapegoats of women? What do they want to do with the married women? Do we say to them "There is a recession on, go home and sit out this recession in your homes and maybe if you are good girls come back and we will give you a job when it is all over"? That is not on. Women are there because they are doing a fine job of work and I feel that if I am going for a job the fact that I have a ring on the third finger of my left hand in no way should debar me from getting that job if I have the ability, the skill and the know-how to do that job and do it well.

There is no doubt that there are many obstacles for women to overcome but the Ireland of today and tomorrow needs the talent and initiative of women now more than ever before. However, in attaining their share of equality, women must be careful not to achieve it at the expense of motherhood and housecraft. This is most important and indeed vital to the prosperity and to the future. We must stop condemning housecraft as a drudgery. It is one of the finest and most satisfying of arts.

I know that many women want to go out to work. I know that many women for financial reasons must go out to work. For those women who have the skill, brainpower and dedication to follow a demanding career the way should be and must be open. Let us not forget those whose inclinations take them to be homemakers. Parents realise the enormity of the task of rearing children. Let everyone else recognise it for the commitment it is. Initiatives have taken many forms. The Irish Countrywomen's Association from its foundation in 1910, when women did not have a vote, organised classes in traditional crafts for rural women. The effect of this policy was twofold: it provided badly-needed income for women in rural areas and ensured the survival of our traditional crafts. In later years the ICA, by providing courses in guest-housekeeping for their members at "An Grianán" initiated the farm home holiday scheme which has been such a resounding success. These two examples illustrate "where there is a will there is a way". It also should be pointed out that you do not sit on the fence and wait for things to be done for you.

We have no business in going about telling others what to do if we are not prepared to make every effort ourselves. For instance, how we spend our money is vital to the economy of this country. It is no longer merely enough to say we should buy Irish. The situation now is that we must buy Irish. If we do not keep our money in our country we are throwing away both our own and our children's future. I know the difficulty of finding Irish goods, even fruit and vegetables. I have gone into supermarkets looking for such things as frozen chips to make a quick tea when I dash in after a day's work and I have not been able to buy Irish frozen chips. We grow the best potatoes in this country and surely we can provide Irish frozen chips. Again, frozen vegetables are in the same line. One can buy English frozen vegetables at about 69p while our own frozen vegetables are 99p a pound. This, with the differential in the money, is a very wide gap indeed.

As a farmer I know the difficulty of growers in getting their produce on to the supermarket shelves. It is up to us to see that they succeed in so doing. Shopkeepers make the excuse of continuity of supply. They say that the Irish grower is not giving them this and they use this as an excuse for importing millions of pounds worth of foreign fruit and vegetables each year.

We can produce the best in the world: we must see that our marketing improves and that we can provide what the shopkeeper is looking for. Let us complain and criticise when necessary, but let it be constructive and reasonable criticism, not just a case of them versus us. What we should complain about more strongly is the amount of waste in our society. "Waste not, want not" should be our maxim. Excessive packaging on groceries, tin cans, plastic bags, half-used bottles of medicine — these are some of the worst examples of conspicuous waste. They also constitute a serious threat to the environment of a country which is so dependent on tourism revenue.

By now we are all well aware that the current budget deficit must be reduced and the overall level of Government spending restrained. We must reduce inflation and in this respect I welcome the news that our rate is now down to 17 per cent. Hopefully by the end of the year it will be down to 14 per cent. However, as the Taoiseach said this morning, this is far from ideal. We must see that it goes much lower indeed. The recession has been with us a long time and most people realise that when inflation rises wages lose their purchasing power and living standards drop. From now on, the test in relation to any item of expenditure must be not whether it is desirable or worthwhile but whether the country can afford it in the present circumstances.

It is easy to point our fingers at any individual or party as the cause of our present difficulties, but it is a time-wasting exercise. All our efforts and our energies must be united in a single objective to ensure for our young people the possibility of a viable future in this country. The way forward now will be through a period of retrenchment. We have to accept a period of static living standards, even accept declining living standards for some so that the needy in our society do not suffer unduly in this recession.

There have been many references during this debate to the anomalies in the payment of social welfare benefit which at times makes it more profitable to work a three-day rather than a five-day week. While it is vitally important that adequate benefits are provided for those who are ill or who cannot obtain employment, it is also essential that wasteful or inequitable expenditure is eliminated so that funds so saved can be diverted to creating sustainable productive employment in the economy. It is all-important that there is an adequate incentive to work. People should always obtain a higher reward at work than when not working. The present situation which enables many people to be better off when in receipt of short-term social welfare payments should be altered without delay. We have the commitment of the Minister who said yesterday that this matter is being looked into and I am sure this situation will be rectified very soon indeed.

A service such as the health service, which was heading towards a gross expenditure of £1,000 million or some 8 per cent of our GNP, would naturally have to be considered when cutbacks were being made. In the current year the proportion of the health service costs which have been cut represents about 4 per cent of total expenditure. Further savings can be achieved by the elimination of wasteful procedures, non-essential items, careful control of temporary employment and overtime and the imposition of nominal charges for service which those who can afford them can pay so that a full range of essential services for those who need them can continue to be provided. This would indeed appear to be reasonable and equitable.

We all realise that there are difficult days ahead. However, I am an incurable optimist. The path ahead may be hazardous but I refuse to go along with the doomsday brigade. I have tried to stress the importance of the individual. I honestly believe that the progress of our country will be the sum of individual industry, energy and uprightness, just as our failure would be the sum of individual idleness, selfishness and vice. We may decry all our social evils and endeavour to eliminate them only to find that they spring up once again in some other form. Nevertheless, we must not lose heart. We are a capable people. We have the ability to overcome all obstacles by accepting our responsibilities and using every opportunity to make our country a fit homeland for future generations, an Irish homeland and hopefully a prosperous homeland.

Senator O'Connell.

I feel I must at this stage on a point of order draw attention to the fact that I am well aware of the custom in this House whereby the speaking arrangements rotate around each of the parties. I represent a party which has not been included in that rota. I feel that I must at this stage make the point that, while there are the main parties, Fine Gael, Fianna Fáil, Labour and the group of Independents. I am not a member of any one of those groupings. I am here as a member of my own political party, and I feel very strongly that the party of which I am a member should have the same inclusion in the speaking rota as every other party and grouping in this House. I should like to register now my disappointment that that is not the case. This is not the first time I have had this experience. I have tried to draw attention to the matter privately.

Senator Mallon, I do not like to interrupt you, but speakers are called at my discretion. Senator O'Connell is next to speak and I will call you immediately after him. I am sorry Senator Mallon.

I regret I had to draw attention to it in this way, but I feel like a yo-yo in every debate. I must make the point once and for all that as a representative of a political party I believe that party should be included in the rota and recognised as such.

I am glad Senator Mallon declared his membership of a party which he did not name, but we all know the name of that party, and that he differentiated that party from the majority on the other side of the House.

Senator O'Connell, I have made a ruling as Cathaoirleach and I should like you to let the case rest and continue with your contribution.

Certainly. This morning the Taoiseach said in the course of his address which was an interesting one, whether it was relevant or not is another matter:

The extent to which our development goals are realised will depend ultimately on the effort and enterprise of individuals and on co-operation between all sections in the interests of the community as a whole.

He also said:

I know that when the issue is clearly put and the reality fully understood there will be the resolve, the will and the good sense to support the remedies needed now to gain the benefits which our potential, if realised, can bring us.

It seems to me that the critical factor in the present crisis, which we are here to discuss, is confidence: confidence in the future, confidence in the economy, confidence in the nation, confidence in our people and confidence in the Government as the expression of the nation's will and the means of carrying out that will.

In the discussion which has taken place on the economy, not so much here as outside this House, there has been a tendency to suggest that the Government and the political system are subsidiary or, as it were, on one side, and not to be considered at the centre of the debate which should be taking place. This is not so. The Government and the political system and the political parties are central to the debate and should be kept at the centre of that debate.

There has been an allegation from speakers on the other side of the House that we, on this side of the House, might be playing politics. One might well ask what is politics? Politics deals with the most fundamental issues facing our community: the quality of life, the bread and butter of life, the jam too, and security in the broadest sense, the future. This is what politics is about. Perhaps the allegations refer to what is known as party politics, a term used somewhat clumsily and out of order, if I may use that phrase. The reference here is to politics as a kind of game. In Senator Robb's comments on what he called the denigrating tendency, his reference to long knives and personalised attacks, he was referring to that kind of politics, to the sort of tribal game in which we have indulged at times, for our amusment and for other reasons.

When we get down to matters which are fundamental to problems which really affect the ordinary people of our country, and about which we should be concerning ourselves, party divisions are important. As Senator Robinson said, ideology has a place in our discussions. There are fundamental differences between those who are on one side of this debate and those who are on the other. There are fundamental diferences between those people who now run the Fianna Fáil Party and ourselves on this side of the House, between those who now run the Fianna Fáil Party and those who ran it in the past and made a very worthy contribution to the development of this country. There might even be differences between those who run the Fianna Fáil Party at present and members of the Fianna Fáil Party.

There has been a somewhat defensive approach by Fianna Fáil speakers in this debate. When they left out party politics, many speakers made very interesting, constructive and worthwhile contributions; but the overall impression is not one of great confidence in themselves, or their party, or their Government, or their Taoiseach. It is interesting, for example, that in those speeches which I heard — and I have been here for a certain length of time — the customary deferential bow which we all make to the leader of our party, whoever he may be, seems to have been absent, and one wonders why.

Overall there have been somewhat monotonous, dreary, bored contributions, except from people who occasionally got on to matters of concern to themselves as public representatives. This monotony was relieved in two cases. One was when we were treated to the famous knock-about double act of Senator Crowley and Senator Killilea who entertained us last night. I was glad that at that time the Chair did not intervene to defend me against what might have been interpreted as an unpleasant remark by Senator Crowley in which he described me as the most superb comedian in the House. Coming from Senator Crowley that was not derogatory but a superb compliment.

The other contribution to which I should like to draw attention was that of Senator Wright. As I was listening to him my feelings were mixed in that I was tempted, with the seniority of seven months conferred upon me by recent events, to regard his contribution as being somewhat naîve. He referred to instances of self-denial, self-sacrifice, co-operation and the rather more constructive kind of patriotism which has been shown by our people in the past. My first reaction was: "What is he talking about? This has no relevance in our society." He was putting his finger directly on the key critical factor. How are we eventually going to deal with this crisis? Clearly there are important technical measures which must be taken. Clearly there are policies which must be formed with regard to economics and administration, but, in the end, as a number of speakers have said on both sides of the House, we come back to the people. We come back to the appeals for patriotism. These appeals for patriotism which we have heard in the House on the last two days are not new. There is very little that is new in them because we have been hearing them for many years, but they have fallen almost entirely upon deaf ears. They have fallen upon the ears of a population which finds them unintelligble and meaningless. The reason for that is that the predominant values in our society are those which encourage anything but that kind of altruistic patriotism. They encourage a competitive and aggressive self-interest. When we consider such matters as industrial relations, the behaviour of the trade union movement and that of those who face the trade union movement, we find that at the root of what actually happens.

If then the secret to our emergence from this crisis as a people is patriotism, how then — this is the fundamental political question to which we will have to find an answer over the next while — will we bring about a turn about in attitudes? Who will bring about this change in attidues? To whom will we look for the necessary leadership?

In The Irish Times of 10 January 1980 there was an article which states:

No sunburstry, no emotional twanging on the national heartstrings, but a commonsense reiteration of the sticky financial figures and a stressing of industiral peace as the major factor in our recovery. No great promises. No dire threats — deliberate understatement indeed. These were the hallmarks of the Taoiseach's address of last night.

Reference has been made already, particularly by Senators Cregan and Harte, to that television address. It was an important television address. It is one of the major points that we must consider when we try to understand where we are at present and understand where we are politically. In that television address by the Taoiseach, he said that as a community we are away beyond our means. He also said: "To make up the difference, we have been borrowing enormous amounts of money, borrowing at a rate which just cannot continue." The sentence which sums up what he was saying at that time is on page six of the same newspaper:

In our present economic situation, it is madness to think that we can keep on looking for more money for less work or to think that if we have sufficient economic muscle there is no limit to what we can extract from the community.

It was an address that was received with much goodwill and a general understanding though not a very enthusiastic understanding because people realised there would be sacrifice and denial. It would mean we would have to make an effort. There was an implication that the Government, on behalf of the people, would intervene in the economy and in the conduct of industrial relations in order to hold the ring against sectional interests and keep in their proper place those who previously had exercised an excess of economic muscle. But what happened? In January and February of 1980 following that address there was a build-up to what would obviously be a tough budget. I was privileged to be in the public gallery at the time when that budget came out and was able to hear it being announced. It was very clear that the budget was designed with the greatest minute care to bring in precisely those people who had provided that extra ration of votes in 1977 which gave the Fianna Fáil Party a majority of 20 seats. There followed during the course of that year a series of soft settlements, each one of them funded out of public money.

In 1981 there was another soft budget. It was clearly again designed to be an election budget. In 1981 that general election was fought on what we might call the mixture as before. It would be somewhat inappropriate to suggest that the Fianna Fáil Party then had as their patron saint the Prime Minister of another country called Harold Macmillan who said: "You never had it so good". But the general idea was the same. The advertisements which were published in the newspapers on behalf of the Fianna Fáil Party made reference, for example, to the fact that the then Government had steered the economy through four difficult years. This was despite the fact that it was becoming obvious to all of us, even those of us who did not have access to the figures and the books, that the economy was collapsing and that by the autumn of that year there would be no money in the till.

When the new Government came in there were allegations from the Fianna Fáil side of gloom and doom. It was all exaggerated. But in a matter of months, in the February election, the Fianna Fáil Party accepted totally and publicly the need for budgetary control and, indeed, for a budget deficit which was, to within a few figures, almost identical to that of the Coalition Government. There followed the negotiations for power.

In his speech this morning the Taoiseach said:

In his budget statement last March, the Tánaiste emphasised the Government are firmly committed to bringing the current deficit under control and gradually eliminating it. To that end, we set a tough target for the budget deficit ...

In the negotiations which went on in order to secure political power for that Government promises were made and bargains were entered into. Every single pound and penny in those bargains was funded by public money. There ensued two by-elections. There ensued a period of months in which a precarious Dáil situation existed. Obviously the Government, confident as they were of the support of the people, nevertheless felt that at any time they might have to face those people in unpleasant circumstances. There was at that time no mention of any necessity for extraordinary measures, no mention that the budget deficit, which had been elucidated on by the Tánaiste, was out of control. As soon as the Dáil was safely in recess, a note was left by the departing Ministers as they proceeded on their holidays to say that, unfortunately, there had been some slight miscalculation, that we were now to have a series of swingeing cuts in public expenditure, that the public service employees, the villains of the piece, the people who had been milking the Irish people, would have to pay, and that at some subsequent date when the Ministers came back from their holidays there might be some consultation about how much they were going to pay and when they would pay.

The problem is one of confidence in this country, confidence in the Government and confidence in the Taoiseach. If the Taoiseach and his associates in government had only discovered the need to control borrowing and to control public squandermania in July of this year one might have had sympathy. I might myself have been foremost among those who would say that for the moment we must put aside our differences and put our shoulders to the wheel. I am sure I would have been able to find an adequate supply of clichés to use publicly and privately in support of a nationally-minded Government. However, the Taoiseach knew all about it 1980 and he knew about it not when he was in a minority position but when he had a majority of 18 seats.

One might at this point say that these are good party points, good tribal infighting with a few scores for the home team and so on but there is a more fundamental criticism that must be made. It is a criticism of the style and pattern of Government which has been maintained not just by this Taoiseach and this administration but by those who have taken over Fianna Fáil and who have run that party for the past ten or 15 years. If I speak with a slight raising of tone here, perhaps even with traces of passion, it is because as one who has some interest in the history of our country I recognise the contribution made in the past by Fianna Fáil and the contribution made by the great men and women of that party. What we have had for the past ten or 15 years is something different but I believe it is fundamentally different from what they stood for and worked for. We have not had a style and pattern of Government designed to maintain a cohesive, just and democratic community, in which all children of the nation are cherished equally. What we have had is a style and pattern of Government designed to encourage and exalt the qualities and values of competitive consumer aggression, of division, disintegration, inequality and inequity, which have brought us to where we are today.

It is ironic that shortly we are about to celebrate the centenary of a person who I believe was a very great man, Eamon de Valera. I believe he made a considerable contribution to this country. As somebody with a little knowledge of history, I believe there was a crucial period during his public career when his failure to lead played perhaps a major part in plunging this country into the tragic civil war. I cannot agree with everything he said or did but apart from the reservation I expressed there can be no doubt in the mind of any impartial member of my generation that he made a contribution to this country.

Can we honestly say that the country and the society we have now, over which the Fianna Fáil Party have presided for the overwhelming portion of the time since 1932, is the kind of society Eamon de Valera set out to achieve? Can we say that this is the kind of society the leaders of our national movement set out to achieve? We have a divided society, a society that is not just and that is not democratic. We have a society in which, strangely enough, there is an ascendancy, even though the whole purpose of the game was to get rid of the ascendancy. This is a new ascendancy. If Senators read what Alexis de Tocqueville, the famous French political scientist in the 19th century had to say about what happens to a revolution they may not be totally surprised. The fact remains that we have a new ascendancy and a new peasantry. That peasantry is increasing: it may be an urban peasantry mainly but it is also a rural peasantry. They are as much condemned and imprisoned relatively speaking within the terms of our times and society as that peasantry that was supposed to be liberated.

There is a deep questioning of our society, a deep malaise.

On a point of order, is the Minister referring to the poor people of Ireland as tripe?

I am referring to the Senator's contribution. That should have been obvious.

Not being very experienced in these matters I was told that if the other side started to heckle when I spoke it was because I was hitting a tender spot. It seems that those who advised me were correct. There is a fundamental uncertainty in our society, a questioning and a doubt. It is a doubt that has sprung to a large extent from the kind of purported leadership, or failure of leadership that we have had in the past ten or 15 years.

Senator Robb made a valuable contribution in which, unlike many of us here, he offered concrete, constructive alternatives but in many cases they were alternatives far from the political reality of our time. In many cases the proposals were radical: I am not saying they were wrong or inappropriate but from a political point of view they were inappropriate in that at the moment it would seem difficult to put them into effect. Senator Wright raised the possibility of idealism and altruism in our society. Both Senators were raising a fundamental question. All of us know that something is wrong. Some of us have good explanations for it while others have explanations that may not be complete or perfect. We can talk about economic plans and about economic and administrative proposals but in the end — and this has been shown again and again in other countries as well as in our own — unless we have the political will and unless there is the will among our people as well as confidence and trust in this country, not in the faceless international financiers of the International Monetary Fund for example, all these proposals fall.

The Senator has one minute in which to conclude.

I say in genuine sincerity that the National Economic Plan which we are promised may be excellent in many ways — it may also be merely an election manifesto — but it will fail if the people do not have the confidence in the Government to put it into effect and the willingness to follow the Government in these proposals. I suggest with regret, not from the party point of view but from a national point of view, that the present Government do not enjoy that confidence, the present Taoiseach does not enjoy that confidence, and it would be appropriate now if they would have the courage and the belief in their own ability to seek a mandate from the people once more.

First of all, I will put on record very briefly the reason that I felt that I could not support the motion for the recall of the Seanad. There is no question or doubt that the economic and social situation in this part of the country is a source of great concern to those who live both North and South of the Border. Progress in the sixties and seventies was tremendously encouraging when independent Ireland came into its own. Certainly, North of the Border would like to see that progress restored, continuing and maintained as quickly as possible, as in many ways our own salvation in the North of Ireland may depend upon it.

However, there is no escaping the fact that by far the biggest political, economic and social crisis in this island is and has been taking place in the North of Ireland for this past 13 years. Well over 2,000 people have been killed. The political structures did not and do not work. Unemployment is at a record 21 per cent and is rising daily. There is industrial collapse and virtually no new investment from any source. Inner city communities are divided by what is euphemistically described as a peace wall but which is every bit as forbidding as the Berlin Wall. This very autumn institutions are being imposed on the people of the North of Ireland which most of them do not want, about which the Irish Government were not consulted and in which one side of the community, representing almost 40 per cent of the whole population, do not intend to participate. Yet I cannot ever recall during the past 13 years any recall of this Seanad to debate in any way the economic, social, or political policies or the tragedies that have happened in the North of Ireland.

I will take this opportunity to refer to that. We have heard the terms "nation", "country" and "people of Ireland" used here this evening. As far as I am concerned, the term "country" means this island on which we live. The term "nation" means every single person living on this island, be it North or South of the Border. The "people of Ireland" who have been referred to are the people who live in the 32 counties. One of the disappointments - I predicted this to a fellow Senator - about this debate, is that one can see the element of partitionism, and that is in many ways very disturbing, because only one part of the country has been spoken about. One set of its administrative arrangements has been spoken about. One set of problems for one set of people has been spoken about. Do we cherish the children of all this nation equally as this Constitution says we must, or do we deal with the children of part of this nation?

It is my duty to put on record briefly without any great detail the type of economic problems that some of the children of part of this nation suffer. One of the great lies is that because of our linkage to the great British economy we have things much easier and much better than the people here have and we do not have the problems that we would otherwise have. Let us see some of the tremendous advantages we have. We have the lowest industrial earnings in what is termed the whole of the United Kingdom. We have the highest unemployment in these islands at 21 per cent at the moment. We have the highest prison population per capita in the western world and we have the highest infant mortality rate in what is euphemistically termed the UK. We have the lowest life expectancy rate in that same area. We have the poorest housing record in this island. Indeed, if one goes back to 1979, 19.6 per cent of the housing stock was unfit for habitation and that amounted to 89,370 houses, so much so that then was the only time that the EEC made any grants or tried to make any grants towards houses within the Community. The EEC has two areas of special consideration, one inner Belfast and the other Naples. That is what part of the children of this country are suffering because of a certain political arrangement. My thesis is that, irrespective of what measures are taken by this Government and irrespective of whatever way you try to deal with this economy, you cannot solve your economic problems while you are simply solving them for one part of this island. It cannot be done and I hope to be able to point to the reasons why.

We have a situation at present when, despite the pouring in at a certain time of £30,000 per job, factories are closing day after day - de Lorean, Moygashel, Courtaulds and so on, because of the shortsightedness of an industrial programme which was based on a very high capital-intensive involvement. We had a situation of 100 per cent grants towards capital involvement and we know where that has led us.

I make these points, and I would like to add to them that at the moment it is costing approximately £120 million per year in that part of this island to keep the unemployed unemployed. Is that not a terrible waste of money? What future is there for the Irish people living in that part of Ireland where 52 per cent of them are relying on supplementary benefit to keep them above the poverty line? Those are verifiable facts and we must not overlook them in this debate. If we do, then this is not a debate about this nation or about this nation's economy or this nation's social illness; it is a partitionist debate. That type of partitionism should never show its head in this House or in the other House. I make that point because it is absolutely important to put on record that the social and economic problems that exist in this island are not confined to the 26 counties. They are common to the whole of the island and unless they are dealt with on an all-Ireland basis they will not be solved. Unless we solve the political problems that exist in this island one cannot set about solving those problems on the proper basis.

There are some who would like to think otherwise. The fact is that the Northern situation impinges itself adversely on every aspect of life south of the Border. For example, much of the discussion over these two days concerns £120 million cuts imposed by the Government at the end of July, including the third phase of the public service pay deal and what the motion describes as "inequitable cuts in the social services". As I understand it at present, and I make reference to the Minister for Justice's statement of yesterday, cross-Border security alone is costing in the region of £100 million per annum. If the Northern situation did not exist, if we had not this festering political problem in this island, it is quite certain that this debate would not have arisen.

Let us take the word of Lord Gowrie, the Deputy Secretary of State, in relation to the proposed solution to our problem when he said it would take 20 or 30 years for that proposed assembly to start working properly. My mathematics may be wrong but if the good Lord Gowrie is right - and if he is, it will be for the first time in my experience — that will have cost the taxpayer and the Government of the Republic of Ireland £3,000 million by the time that assembly starts to work properly, by Lord Gowrie's definition. With that type of money, this House and the other House, this Government and the people of Ireland surely must be saying to themselves: "If we are serious about solving this problem we solve the political one first".

The problems are not confined to security. There are other areas — for example, that of the tourist industry and as someone who has had great affection for the county of Donegal, the most northern part of this island, I can see the problems that they face year after year. As somebody who drives down that road from the North of Ireland very often, I can see the problems caused on that Border because of the imports and exports from one part of a country to another. Surely to heavens even East Germany and West Germany do not regard each other as foreign countries for trade. It is a point I will return to. We look at the way in which the heavy industrial skills that existed in the North of Ireland are disappearing — skills that could be of enormous use for the whole of this island. That tradition is going with the economic collapse.

I do not have to tell the Minister present the way in which the agricultural industry in this island could be completely revamped and revitalised if one were dealing with a policy for the whole of this island, marketing and planning for the future for the whole of this island. In terms of industrial development, would we have the sight of the IDA and the industrial development organisations in the North vieing with each other in the United States as to who will get the next industry first? Is there not a massive case for the whole of this island working as a unit towards the betterment of all of the people of this island? I suggest that there is. I suggest that we are not thinking in those terms, when we are talking in a very partitionist, defensive way, avoiding and evading the central part of what is the real problem in this island.

Many people indeed are concerned about the deterioration of law and order — and we have seen it in the shooting of gardaí in recent years — and the prevalence of armed robberies. One question for anyone who says there is a settlement available within the Six Counties of the North is: can you or can you not solve the real security problem in those confines? If the answer is no, then let us proceed along a line of approach which will allow us to do that, because as long as that situation is continuing in that part of the island, it will continue to spill over.

I have mentioned the effect on tourism. Ireland has done very well in attracting foreign investment. How much easier would the task be if we had a stable situation in this country? Normal healthy relations with Britain are rendered virtually impossible by the Northern situation. There are people from Border counties, both North and South, sitting here, and we know how these counties have failed to flourish as they should have done because of the artificiality of that Border. We know the way that rational investment in capital intensive sectors, such as electricity, have been rendered impossible by the Border, by the cutting of the inter-connector. I do not wish to go on enumerating these woes. I want simply to point out that there is no way, even if it were desired, that this part of this island can solve its economic problems in isolation from that part of the island in which I live.

It has been alleged in certain quarters recently that the party to which I belong — I am sorry that Senator O'Connell has left; it is called the Social Democratic and Labour Party — and the whole of the Northern minority have become too nationalistic. It is all very well for people in this free part of this island who are fortunate enough to have had 60 years of freedom and independence to say that. Perhaps they can afford a little cynical laugh at those of us who have to hang on, with the greatest difficulty by our fingernails to what we believe in. The ordinary people in the Shankill Road, in the Falls Road, in the Bogside and in South Armagh, or wherever else you go, do not have that luxury. We not only shared for 300 years the same history as the rest of this country but, unlike the people here, instead of being free to express our Irish identity, an even more oppressive ascendancy was imposed on us and exists at the present time. I readily accept that it is very hard for people in this part of this island to understand our frustration.

Many are critical of the Government and the Taoiseach here. Imagine, instead, if you had a Margaret Thatcher with her policies and her attitudes to be your Taoiseach. That is the exact position for some of the children of this nation. When we talk, indeed in insulting terms at times, about the attitudes of people in the North of Ireland, let us see how we have to live with that type of situation. A minority community have their own interests which, of necessity, differ from those of any of the political parties in the South of Ireland. We do not align ourselves with any political party but we are humble enough to look for help where we can find it.

These people — and there are such in this House — who by their old philosophy and outlook are disposed to campaign in the fight against discrimination, injustice, inequality of opportunity, apartheid, colonisation and the old imperialist domination are, in many cases, the very first to disown the political trauma that has existed in their own country. I say to them that their position is partitionist if they continue to do so. This is our country, this is the nation of Ireland. It is the nation of Ireland referred to in the Constitution. It was hard won, bitterly won and many, many years of sweat went to build it to its present state. Could anyone properly suggest that that independence be thrown away? Is that independence to be given over to someone like the IMF, because that is exactly what was suggested here yesterday?

There are social and economic problems within this island. Those problems must be faced in an independent way by an independent country, not in such a way that the IMF usurp, or are allowed to usurp, that dearly won independence which some of us envy very much, indeed. Could I make certain references to some thing I would like to see changed? One is the partitionism that still exists — this wave of protectionism for the economy of the Republic of Ireland, simply because of the problem of Partition. To every single Protestant teacher who is not allowed to take up employment in the Republic of Ireland — and he cannot because, by and large, he has not been able to learn Irish because of an accident of birth — every time he is refused you are saying yes, there are two cultures here. To every typist or clerk who is refused a job in Dublin Corporation because he or she went to a school in the North and has not got the leaving certificate, despite the fact that he or she may have the equivalent, you are saying yes, there are two countries. Every time the construction industry here is discussed and a senior politican, as happened in the recent past, refers to the unfair competition from Northern Ireland firms, you are saying that there are two countries in this island. Every time a product which is produced in Northern Ireland is refused a guaranteed Irish certificate, what you are saying is: "Yes, there is a British Ireland and there is an Irish Ireland." I want to draw attention to that.

I should not like to leave that point without mentioning two other points, especially as the Minister for Agriculture is present. Patriotism was referred to earlier today. We have seen the advertisement in the newspapers that if you eat an egg with a No. 8 on it you are more patriotic because you are eating an Irish egg, but if you eat an egg with a No. 9 on it that may be a Northern Irish egg and you are less patriotic. You are exhorted not to eat it, but to eat the egg which is guaranteed Irish, guaranteed 26 county Irish. I ask the Minister to look at that advertisement and get rid of the No. 9. Our problems are much wider than that.

I have a cutting from The Irish Press of Tuesday 21 September. I will make no comment on it but simply read it:

The US Customs Service is about to deal a body blow to Northern Ireland's linen and whiskey industry when it forces Northern manufacturers to drop their "Made in Ireland" label for a "Made in UK" marking later this year.

The change comes as the result of Sligo businessman, James Hanssen, who wrote to the American Government last June, complaining that Irish exporters were being forced to compete unfairly with Northern businessmen who were able to capitalise on an Irish identification.

Northern Irish people capitalising on Irish identification. I will say no more. All I wonder is, what we will call the hard stuff when this goes through? Will it become Anglo-Irish whiskey or Anglo-Scotch whiskey? It cannot be called Scotch because that is a brand name. We will have to get a new name for it. Every time we do that, we are saying there are two countries here. We are saying: "Yes, you are British, not Irish" to those people. You are saying: "Yes, Dr. Conor Cruise-O'Brien, you are right, There are two nations". You are saying to Mr. Paisley and to Mr. Molineaux: "Yes, sirs, you are perfectly correct, yours is a foreign country." I would ask that the practicalities in the matter of cherishing all the people of the nation equally be reflected in the administrative arrangements which exist at present and which have existed for years.

I should also like to refer to one of the dangers in a debate like this. It will be used. Could I refer to certain parts of an interview given by the Deputy-Secretary of State, Lord Gowrie, in the Boston Sunday Globe on 19 September 1982? It is unfortunate that the present system of Government in Northern Ireland, whether or not provided with a colonial type assembly, is totally undemocratic. As Lord Gowrie said, and mark his words very clearly: “No one votes for us there. We are not audience-responsive.” We can assure him they are not audience-responsive when we look at our economic and social situations and the total collapse of the Six Counties. That is the first remark to which I take exception. The second one is a flippant and very offensive description of Loyalist sectarian assassinations which have started again. He says: “The Protestant paras go about potting a Mick before breakfast.” Those are the words of the person who is Deputy-Secretary of State, the second in command, the Tánaiste in the Six Counties part of this island. That is offensive to Catholic, Protestant and Dissenter, wherever they live in this island. None of my constituents, Catholic or Protestant, finds this campaign or the attitudes behind it even faintly amusing. One is appalled at the aristocratic detachment of a British Minister with responsibility for security.

He goes on to speak of the resignation that results from the political stalemate. According to the interview he is not interested so much in assessing blame. He says: "If it is our fault, it was a long way back." Were the interrogation techniques in Castlereagh, or the hunger strike, or the present closures of factories a long way back? This is what we live with. Of course, the British do not want to accept the blame for this mess, but as far as I and my party are concerned the blame is undeniably theirs and they must accept it and live up to it. They would like to make the world believe that it is the Protestants and Catholics of Northern Ireland who are to blame and, to underscore that point, they now wish to adopt what The Spectator this week has called in connection with the Lebanese tragedy, the classic imperial device of indirect rule, setting up one local group against the other and blaming them for the tragedies that occur. I ask with all the power at my command that this debate and anything said in it will not be used by the Lord Gowries in Boston or by anyone in London to blacken, as they have been doing, this nation North and South in the eyes of the world and blacken them in a most reprehensible way.

Lord Gowrie continues that in the South the independent Republic has horrendous economic problems: 24 per cent inflation, 13 to 14 per cent unemployment; half the population is under 25; they have an enormous Argentinian style deficit in international markets. Those are Lord Gowrie's words in the same paper of the same date. As everyone here will be aware, at no point since 1975 in the Republic of Ireland has inflation gone higher than 23 per cent. The current rate of inflation is 17 per cent. While he is out of date on the good news, he is wrong in even anticipating the bad. The unemployment rate in Ireland is quoted with 1 per centage point added for good measure without any admission that the British unemployment rates are as high, having been traditionally much lower, and that the Northern Ireland rate of unemployment is 50 per cent higher at 21 per cent. That is not counting the male unemployment figures of over 50 per cent that exist in Derry, Newry, Strabane and west Belfast.

The final insult is to compare the Irish economy with the Argentinian economy. Unlike Lord Gowrie, I have gone to some trouble to establish the facts. The rate of increase in wholesale prices between June 1981 and June 1982 in Ireland was 12.3; in Argentina it was 190 per cent. Two months later theirs had risen to 270 per cent. Their foreign debt service payments amount to 45 per cent of last year's export earnings. That is more than double the Irish figure of about 20 per cent. The repayment of the Government debt in Ireland is spread over ten years, whereas half the Argentinian debt, now £36 billion, comes up for repayment next year.

The least I feel the good Lord Gowrie can do is to make a public apology to the Irish Government and people and to publish a retraction of his disgraceful and defamatory remarks in The Boston Globe. By implication he refers to this country as a junta similar to that in Argentina. This is the same gentleman who is in charge of security in the North, and is still sanctioning the use of plastic bullets which have been condemned by the European Parliament, by the British Labour Party yesterday, and hopefully very shortly by this House. If Lord Gowrie wants to make comparisons with the junta let him come with me to Gough Barracks in Armagh, Castlereagh or any other part of this island within which I live.

I note with some interest that Mrs. Thatcher has started her Anglo-Chinese process. The claims to sovereignty and the right to self-determination of the Hong Kong people sounded very hollow indeed and must have been very deeply embarrassing to British officials. One thing is sure: no task force will be going there. Yet if the British Government can recognise in practical terms that Hong Kong is Chinese and that the only hope for the people there lies in coming to an amicable settlement with their Chinese neighbours which will preserve as much as possible the Hong Kong way of life. why can that not be done within this island in relation to the North of Ireland?

We are primarily discussing the economy here today and I must refer to the present bleak economic prospects for Northern Ireland which are far worse than for the rest of the country. If Northern Ireland has failed as a political entity it has failed even more as an economic entity. The home market is too far away and it has utterly failed at any stage in its history to find an even moderately satisfactory level of employment for the 35 to 40 per cent of its children who belong to the community to which I belong. We must ask the reason why Enniskillen with all that is going for it has twice the unemployment rate of Sligo. and why indeed Dungannon and Cookstown each have four times the unemployment rate of Clonmel? The answers are clear: unless you are able to develop your agricultural sector you cannot prosper in an agricultural country.

I must make one final reference to what I referred to earlier. I refer to the new Assembly which is being imposed on some of the people in Northern Ireland. It is a super quango which is to be based on majority rule. The great lie there of course, a lie which has been accepted by the Alliance Party and by those who now call themselves The Workers' Party, is that by participation they can do something to help the unemployment situation and the quality of life in Northern Ireland. Stated clearly in the White Paper is the fact that any decision to be made within that Assembly is to be made in relation to the economic policy of the British Government of the day, that is, the Government of Margaret Thatcher.

I will finish on this note. Once that election is over questions must be asked in this island. The basic question that must be asked and must be answered is whether we intend to continue for another 13 years re-acting to so-called British initiatives or do we, the legitimate political process in this island, set about solving the problems that face us. It is only in relation to our answer can we say whether we will solve the social and economic problems which are the subject of this motion tonight.

The motion before the Seanad today calls on the Government to initiate urgent proposals. Members on the other side of the House have accused people on this side of not making concrete or constructive proposals. It is my intention to be constitutional. Before proceeding to those proposals there are four items which I deem urgent enough to mention first. First, I refer to the ever-increasing cost of petrol. There are the obvious results of the increase in cost to the average motorist, to industry and in terms of the various commodities. These successive increases are particularly harsh on the rural working man or woman. In most of rural Ireland successive Governments have failed to provide jobs in the rural communities thereby forcing those who wish to find jobs to commute to the nearest big centres if they are to live at home or near home. I give as an example the Fanad Peninsula in County Donegal. The nearest employment to be found is in Letterkenny which is 28 miles away. In other words, the total distance the people concerned must travel is 56 miles per day for which they would require two gallons of petrol. This represents an average cost of £25 per week. This point needs no further explanation.

I wish also to refer to the retail drink trade. I am convinced that if this or other Governments continue to increase the price of drink the revenue generated and the return to the Exchequer will continue to diminish. I am told that the economic term for this, and I am not into economics, is the law of diminishing returns. I believe we have arrived at this point. The duty and VAT resulting from the consumption of drink is producing less revenue for the Government than before the last round of increases. Some might argue that with fewer people going to the bars the social problem of the heavy drinker might be solved. Nothing could be further from the truth. The fact is that the heavy drinker will continue to drink at the same rate as he is accustomed to and with the increase in prices the net result is that less money goes into the home. Not only therefore is a social problem not being cured but the social problem already there is being exaggerated and advanced.

Thirdly, I wish to refer to the cutbacks in revenue to local authorities. This results basically from the 1977 manifesto. I do not wish to bring party politics into this but that manifesto abolished domestic rates. The Government of the day promised to substitute the domestic rate with direct expenditure from the Exchequer to the local authorities. This substitution has been made but not at the rate of inflation that local authorities were experiencing. In the three years from 1978 to 1980 local authorities and the nation in general experienced an inflation rate of 17 per cent with bitumen-based materials costing up to 25 per cent more and yet the Government of those three years allowed increases of 10, 11 and 12 per cent. Calculated on a compound basis of the unit of 1977 the amount needed to meet the inflationary rates at 17 per cent after three years would have been 160 points as opposed to the 136 allowed while on bitumen-based materials only 200 points were allowed. If Governments continue to starve local authorities of revenue the services will break down and mass unemployment and breakdown of infrastructure will result.

Fourthly, I wish to refer very briefly to the motor trade which at the moment is going through a period of starvation. Submissions have been made by the Society of the Irish Motor Industry requesting a reduction of VAT on vehicle repairs from 18 per cent to 3 per cent in the hope that trade will be attracted back to members of the industry. This request is at least worthy of consideration.

However, it is on the fishing industry specifically that I intend to talk. I am glad that the Minister for Agriculture, who happens to be an ex-Minister for Fisheries, and another Senator who deals directly in fisheries are present. We heard the Taoiseach talk about cuts. Cuts are not the answer to all our problems. Planning represents a good deal of the solution. No development plan for Irish industry exists which sets out in qualified terms the direction and speed at which Irish industry should develop. It is agreed that the absence of a common fisheries policy makes it virtually impossible to plan ahead. Nevertheless we must make some attempt to plan for the future, but the absence of concrete proposals makes it impossible for any real progress to take place.

The key issue in any policy or plan, let it be Irish or European, is management, control and conservation of our fish stocks. Unless it can be established at a reasonable level what fish are being caught not alone in Irish but in European waters our common fisheries policy means nothing. That is why I advocate an observer system aboard ships that are now landing into the ports. This is a vital issue. Guidlines and targets must be established to cross a wide spectrum. A co-ordinated approach is particularly essential in the main areas of production and development. That is why the joint venture to which I will refer should be strongly advocated as the only solution for Irish fishermen in securing the proper markets and the creation of more jobs in the fish-processing industry. Every effort should be made to seek agreement through negotiation with our European partners fishing in costal waters that fish being caught is landed in the coastal state for processing. If we are to have to live with our European partners fishing our waters then the maximum should be derived from the situation through negotiation and in consultation with Irish fisheries.

The present crisis affecting the fishing industry exists on a European-wide basis and is not confined to an Irish dimension. Nevertheless, it is the opinion of the Irish fishing industry that properly conceived programmes, efficiently carried out, could substantially lessen the economic shock in times of recession and depression and achieve substantial gains in time of economic expansion. No proposals ever put forward by anybody could totally satisfy all sections of the Irish fishing industry. But these proposals would be generally acceptable to the majority viewpoint of all sections of the industry. What is more important is that many of these proposals will be contained in the ERSI Report on the development of the Irish sea-fishing industry and its regional implications, a study of which has been commissioned by the EEC and the Irish Government.

The zoning of inshore waters is a controversial issue and despite all the views that have been expressed, no proposals that have emerged have contributed to the solution of this delicate problem. Any Government that put forward proposals for the zoning of inshore waters on a milage basis for a certain type of boat or certain size of horsepower of engine would be looking for trouble. This system would be impossible to monitor, to control or to patrol. The only solution would seem to lie in a system that would allow only fishing for certain species in certain areas, using certain types of fishing gear irrespective of what type of boat was utilised. It is obviously difficult to define either the policy issue facing any Irish Government or the specific projects or programmes to be supported by Ireland or the Community without specific details of a common fishing policy which would eventually emerge from the Community. There is no doubt in any fisherman's mind that the success or failure of any policy, be it fishing or otherwise, is management of the resource. This is why very few fishermen have any faith in the policy as it is proposed. It is expected that management of sea fisheries in Community waters will be based on total reliable catches, their species divided into individual country quotas.

The mobility of the Community fleets poses massive problems for accurate recording of catches. Biological considerations call for management in terms of the smallest separate populations that can be determined. Yet many vessels take the same species in several areas and mixed species in each area. Rapid, detailed and accurate reporting of catches is vital if area quotas are to be effective. This is why I would propose and support the placing of observers aboard fishing boats not landing into the coastal state after fishing in coastal waters. The system is very desirable in a situation where surveillance is spotty. It may not be necessary to have observers aboard all vessels since catch rates on those carrying observers would provide a useful check to others. The cost of such a programme would be far less than the equivalent monitoring by sea and air control.

There are two major advantages to the proposals I make. One is that, since Ireland has no fishery research ship, this system would give us what we lack at no additional cost. The second is that the observer aboard the boat could provide vital information to a fishery research scientist on what type of fish they were catching, how much they were catching of each individual species, the type of gear used, depth of water, termperature of water and areas fished — in other words, vital information for the fishery research scientist.

Third country imports are a serious problem confronting the fishing industry. I would like to advocate also the setting up of a special agency in Brussels, within the Commission to monitor third country imports and to regulate the orderly transfer of fish from one member country to another. These imports constitute a serious problem for Comunity fishermen, as does the badly-managed transfer of fish from one Community country to another. My proposal would be that information could and should be fed by the marketing section of An Bord Iascaigh Mhara in respect of organisations in other countries throughout the Community into this agency as to what fish are being exported to what countries at any given time, thus eliminating the possibility of a large amount of one species arriving on any one market.

I wish also to make proposals with regard to fishing limits and conservation. The Irish fishing industry is gravely concerned at our rapidly diminishing fish stocks. I have no doubt that this depletion of Irish stocks will continue under present international regulations. I consider that the time has come when decisive action must be taken by the EEC and the Irish Government to safeguard fish stocks and therefore the fishing industry. If the raw material is not there, there is little point in discussing programmes of expansion.

I ask this Government, and particularly the Minister for Fisheries, to secure for our fishing industry an inclusive 12-mile limit and a dominant preference for fishermen in our 200-mile economic zone. By a dominant preference I mean that Irish fishermen would get extra quotas on a percentage basis over and above our EEC partners. I would ask that the terms of The Hague Agreement negotiated by the Coalition Government would be lived up to, that is, that the Community undertook a commitment, confirmed by later action, to permit substantial expansion of the Irish seafishing industry.

With regard to the quota to which I have referred I should like to remind this House of a speech made by the present Taoiseach while in Opposition at a youth conference in Malahide. He referred to the proposals for a common fishery policy and asked for a concerted national effort to resist and defeat them. Not long afterwards, however, his Minister for Fisheries and the civil servants who negotiate on our behalf could secure only 3.8 per cent of the total EEC fish quota, although Ireland possesses over 25 per cent of the total EEC waters. The same proposals give Britain 36 per cent of the total EEC quota while they possess only 35 per cent of EEC waters. One does not need to be a mathematician to see that this is a national disgrace, an indictment of the people who are conducting negotiations in Brussels on the industry's behalf. If a concerted effort is needed it is a concerted effort to get Ireland its proper share of the quota of the EEC fish.

I would like also to make proposals with regard to fishery protection legislation. The fisheries protection service needs examination and strengthening. One weakness, obvious to both Navy and fishermen, is the present legislation covering arrest, detention and fines. There is ample evidence to convince people that the legislation is ineffective. I would request a re-examination of the whole of this legislation and a deletion of its obvious weaknesses. It is vitally important that the morale of our fisheries protection services is not weakened by the continuing dismissal of charges against offending ships through ineffective legislation.

I should also like to make some suggestions about inshore waters. The fact that this is a controversial issue makes it unpalatable for any Minister or Government to tackle. But that does not lessen the need to do it. It must be tackled step by step and any proposed measure must operate on a pilot scheme basis until such time as a satisfactory and agreed solution is found. I would like to make the following proposals. The first is that any boat over 90 feet should be allowed fish inside the 12-mile limit only at certain times of the year for pelagic species and at other times for demersal species. Trawlers should not be allowed inside three miles for any demersal species using a net of less than 100 millimetres. This would afford immature fish an opportunity to escape and breed. Certain days should be chosen at certain times of the year for all types of fishing other than passive fishing methods — for instance, drift netting, tangle netting and long line. Strict monitoring of these selected days should be carried out by the Department of Fisheries in order to measure the prospective effect of these conservation methods.

We hope the information will highlight the value to the fishermen themselves, taking and implementing these measures. There should be no restriction on boats under 90 feet as long as they adapt to the fishing method that would be allowed and the type of gear that regulations allow them to use. In these circumstances economics would decide if it was profitable for this size of boat to fish in inshore waters.

I suggest that a committee be set up representative of all organisations of fishermen to draw up proposals and hammer out a compromise solution for the conservation of inshore waters. The proposed re-examination of the base lines which have a major bearing on our 12-mile limit should proceed. While there are obvious difficulties as the base lines were negotiated as part of the London convention, it would still be a worthwhile exercise to pursue this issue, as re-drafted base lines even as part of EEC negotiations could give a lot of extra fishing grounds inside the 12-mile limit to Irish fishermen. The re-structuring of the fishing fleet by BIM is a problem that will have to be tackled. In the present economic recession and the high operating costs that Irish fishermen have to contend with, and the low prices that they are getting for their product, it seems crazy to pursue a policy of building more boats of a type when it is not possible for fishermen to meet their repayments — the ultimate solution to their misery has been the repossession of their boats.

Referring to the ESRI report in which their recommendations state that Government policy towards boat building be adjusted to the biological and economic circumstances of the fishing fleet rather than vice versa, this policy should continue until such time as market, fish prices and fish stocks show a recovery as a stabilisation of the fleet. There should be modernisation of the existing fleet, re-engining and reproduction, restructuring of boats that are capable of taking chilled sea water tanks, and lengthening the boats where sections can be inserted and chilled water tanks installed and modernisation of equipment where needed. A fisherman will only survive if he has a processer to buy and process his fish and the processer has a market in which to sell them. I believe that every effort should be made through negotiations with our EEC partners to point out to them the desirability of landing the fish that they catch in Irish waters into Irish ports and of various types of joint venture arrangements with Irish processers.

Through the IDA and Bord Iascaigh Mhara, a special scheme could be devised for the maximum benefit of all concerned. Such enterprise would provide entry to markets that would otherwise be difficult for Irish processers to penetrate. It would also make technical advice available through regular business channels and also provide a reasonable opportunity for both Irish and foreign vessels to land fish in Irish ports on a regular basis.

Contractual joint venture arrangements would also make it possible for the Irish economy to derive some badly needed employment potential. Ports that could benefit from this type of arrangement would be Howth with its new harbour, Dunmore East, which is capable of taking big boats, but is lying idle, Cobh, Castletownbere, Rossaveel in Galway, Ballyglass in Mayo, Killybegs and Rathmullen in Donegal.

Mention of Rathmullen reminds me of something that is causing grave concern in that village. A fish processing factory was to have been built there but I have been advised that in the last three days a decision has been taken to move the processing plant to the inland town of Lifford, to a site that does not have planning permission or permission of any kind from any relevant authority. I want to put this fact on record until I can raise it at some other time.

My second proposal for the distribution of fish would be to set up distribution stations for fish in strategic locations to enable better distribution of our fish. There is little sense in lorry loads of fish leaving Killybegs, Burtonport, Dunmore East, Galway and Castletownbere only to have other lorries drive to Dublin to collect the same fish to bring them back.

I would like to make some further proposals with regard to the education of young fishermen. In any activity, education and training are of paramount importance and the fishing industry is no exception. With the exceptionally high cost involved in the fishing industry, an equivalent exceptionally high standard of knowledge is demanded from all those involved. It is recognised that since the training and education programme has been handed over to BIM great progress has been made but no effort should be spared further to improve and provide the proper type of training facilities and expertise which would allow Irish fishermen to carry on their work to maximum advantage and to enable them to compete with the fishermen of other nations.

I have recognised the benefits of the fishery college in Greencastle. I recommend a second one in the southern part of the country for prospective fishermen. I further recommend that two inshore boats should be provided, one for each school, the southern school and the Greencastle school, to allow the people to gain first-hand experience on the deck of a boat before going to sea. There are plenty of boats on the books of Bord Iascaigh Mhara which are redundant from commercial fishing which could be deployed to this role.

I suggest a special scheme should be devised by BIM through financial incentives to allow top trainees to purchase their own boats, having acquired the necessary experience. This special scheme should only relate to boys or girls who have graduated with the highest qualifications from the training and education programmes.

I have endeavoured to stay clear of party politics. At the beginning I referred to the cost of petrol, the retail drink trade, the savage cutback in local authority funding and the motor trade. I have made concrete proposals for the fishing industry and I ask the Minister for Agriculture to relay these proposals to the Government and particularly to the Minister for Fisheries and Forestry. I do not think the proposals I have made would increase State expenditure in the fishing industry, but could increase employment with resultant benefit to the Exchequer.

I must say at the outset that, in agreement with other speakers from this side of the House, I feel that recalling the Seanad to debate the motion before us was completely unnecessary and that a more appropriate time would be after the Government had presented their economic plan. However, seeing that the Seanad has been recalled, I am glad of the opportunity briefly to put my view forward regarding the motion. In doing so I say that the motion and the remarks made by the Senators on the other side can do nothing but harm to the confidence of the people and the workers to believe in their ability and to have pride in their country and their jobs. To have pride in one's country is very important. For far too long we have listened to bashing of people and institutions and one would be left to wonder if there was anything good left in Irish life today. Day after day and night after night we are confronted by so many cranks and intellectual do-gooders that one could be forgiven for not having confidence in his country or, indeed, in himself.

Happily, the ordinary Irishman and woman still believe that patriotism is a rich virtue possessed by thousands of Irish people. It seems that in 1982 to be republican or patriotic is almost sinful and those who profess a sincere love for this land and its historic past must be banned from public sight. It is time for us to say out publicly and definitely that to be republican and nationalist is not to be violent and murderous, as so many would wish us to be understood. Indeed, if we do reflect on the past and on those who died for Irish freedom we do so in order to learn. Indeed if we could reflect more on the unselfishness of those who went before us we would certainly not be beset by these modern-day problems. Surely unselfishness can be inculcated by reflection on that same ideal being practised by others. Would that at the very least be more worthwhile for the Ireland of today? There is a kind of ultra-criticism and paranoid cynicism that is gripping so many public figures and media reporters today. Is this young generation of Irish people to grow with no more than daily doses of this spurious attitude towards Ireland? I do not wish to give an impression of an idyllic Ireland; it is far from that. But I am deeply concerned that we are making no public effort to raise ourselves above criticism and cynicism. I believe that only dedication to an ideal, a spirit of republican nationalism in the true sense, will give our people a sense of wanting to put Ireland where she should be economically and politically, an independent nation.

If we recall the late 1960s the solution up to then for unemployment was the emigrant ship. Thankfully since then, as the recent census has disclosed, our population has grown to 3½ million people, 500,000 in the last ten years. Perhaps it was a very unwise decision in 1973-74 for the then Coalition Government to postpone the taking of a census which, if it had been taken and had we known that such a big increase in our population was well on the way, then forward planning for the late 1970s and 1980s could have been and should have been implemented.

Senator Murphy in his contribution yesterday said that, if we created 40,000 jobs per year, this would be sufficient to contain unemployment. I would say to Senator Murphy, that he, with his educational qualifications, must surely agree that, if the population of this country increased by 500,000 people in the last ten years, and given unemployment in 1972 at 80,000, it would mean that this country and its Governments over a period of ten years have created 420,000 jobs, 42,000 per year for a ten year period.

When our forefathers years ago had to leave their beloved country and go to foreign lands to make a living they were not found wanting. They became leaders of men, politicians, statesmen, inventors and so on, but they were all workers. So, today are the workers of this proud country of ours. We have come a long way and I call on the workers of Ireland, whether they are farmers or civil servants, fishermen or industrial people, not to be selfish; it is their country, and their future and their children's future that is at stake. I also call on the union leaders to tell their members that we have the fastest-growing population and the fastest-growing labour force in the European Community. I call on the union leaders to tell their people that we must work harder and make greater sacrifices. We will have to make greater sacrifices than the more advanced countries with a slower growth rate in their labour force.

Reference has been made to State and semi-State bodies. CIE have been mentioned. CIE lost £121 million last year. Surely it is not too much to ask the management and workers of CIE to take a pay pause in view of the fact that had CIE not lost so much our position would not be so serious. Indeed, over other years they have lost comparable amounts and the same applies to other semi-State bodies and State bodies. But for this large loss by these bodies over the years our economy would be in far better shape. They should realise that in agreeing with the measures introduced by the Government they are only protecting their jobs for the future.

We have heard enough about our faults and our failings. The time has come to leave the professional knockers skulking in their corners. This country, in times of economic strife in the past, and indeed far worse economic strife than we have today, always looked to its people and its people responded. I have faith in the same people, its Government and our leader. This country, with its known resources and those yet to be quantified, can provide our present population and any future increase with an adequate way of life and comfortable standards of living.

I have no particular wish to prolong this debate unduly by the repetition of points that have been already well made by Senators on this side of the House or to prolong the debate unduly by the refutation of some of the sillier arguments that have come from some of the Members on the other side.

We can all be satisfied in so far as this debate has shown within this House a general agreement that we face an economic situation of unparalleled gravity. This is indeed the reflection of the general agreement in the country to the same effect. This is welcome because it is a necessary prelude to any attempt to find a way forward. But let us not delude ourselves. Such a recognition is a necessary condition for us to find this way forward but it is very far short of being a sufficient guarantee that we will be able to find that way.

This general agreement within the country and within this House regarding the severity of the economic situation is not something of long standing. It was not the situation of just a short year ago. Indeed, we found Fianna Fáil fighting the general elections of 1981 and 1982 on the grounds that we were unduly harsh. We found the budget of July 1981 and the budget of January 1982 criticised as being unnecessary and as being unduly stringent. We have had dismal news in the Exchequer returns which were announced this afternoon. How much worse would these figures have been if the initial check had not been put on our runaway economy by the Coalition budget of July 1981? It must be equally clear that, had the budget of January 1982 been enacted, our situation in regard to the most sensitive and important indicators would be far better today than has been revealed by these latest returns.

In spite of what was said in the last quarterly returns, we heard in the Taoiseach's speech in the House today that, even taking an optimistic view of the last quarter, the current budget deficit will be one-third higher than anticipated. What was to be the keystone of economic policy, what was taken as the aim of all our economic strategy by the present Government, accepting finally what the Coalition had proposed when they said that this deficit was indeed the keystone, this must remain in place; otherwise the whole structure is in danger.

We have the Taoiseach, when admitting this figure in his speech to us today, making the suggestion that it is due to world conditions. He said this in his speech. The only thing which he mentioned in this regard was world conditions. The world has not rescued us. The world economy has not come to our aid. We must get rid of this attitude. No doubt in the past four or five years, world conditions have not favoured us, but we cannot shuffle off our own responsibilities in this regard.

I am afraid from what we have heard in this debate from the speakers on the other side of the House, including the speech of the Taoiseach, it looks as if the borrowed clothes of financial rectitude do not fit too well on the shoulders of the present Government. They have indeed continued to miscalculate the effects of their policies. They may well have come to the clearer realisation of what the problem is. That is indeed a conversion to be welcomed. But the Government still seem unable to go beyond the diagnosis of what is wrong to suggesting a cure.

It is in their approach to the situation that the Government can be criticised. In regard to such matters as pay agreements, of course, it is common cause among us all that this country cannot afford in 1983 a full settlement of all the claims that are likely to arise in the public sector. It is natural to anticipate right from the beginning that there will be difficulties in 1983 in regard to industrial relations in the public sector. In anticipating that situation, one would have expected that the Government would have at a very early stage initiated discussions with all those concerned in order to start the very difficult, tough and unpleasant business of trying to persuade these people that the country could not give them the totality of what they feel the country owed to them. But instead of that, instead of a gradual start to this problem in a way which might have given some hope of success and of avoidance of industrial chaos in the public sector, spilling over into the private sector, we had an abrupt and curt diktat. It seems almost that the Government thought they could avoid industrial war in 1983 by having an immediate skirmish in 1982. It was the manner of what was done that constituted a disservice to the cause of our economic recovery. And the Government are not entitled to call on those of us on this side of the House to support them in the folly of the manner in which this was done. A much more careful approach to many problems that face us is indeed necessary.

I was glad that the Taoiseach attended the House today. I was glad indeed that he took the trouble to come to us to speak on this debate. Quite frankly, to me the Taoiseach's speech was a disappointment. It, of course, made clear in quite unambiguous terms the Taoiseach's conversion to financial rectitude. But the clarity of what he had to say was I am afraid, the clarity of the cliché. A set of clichés in regard to our economic condition, however well polished, are simply no substitute for hard commitment. It is easy to say that the Government are committed to a reduction in the current deficit. It would be mad for any Government presiding over an economy in our condition to say otherwise. It is a very different thing to make this general commitment and go on to make a hard commitment to reduce that current budget deficit in a specified time and a limited time at that, and having made that commitment to stick to it through thick and thin even at the cost of political support. I can say it is a difficult thing to do because I was a member of a Government who did it, who set out the objectives, who looked for ways of introducing in last January an easier budget than they did but could not find a way to do it without breaking that commitment. In the ensuing general election, having been told that we were making a fetish of borrowing we had the alternative proposals of Fianna Fáil. We see today in the Exchequer returns that Fianna Fáil could not find a way out either. They could find what appeared to be a way out. They could find what appeared to be a solution on paper but to end up at the end of the year, as the Taoiseach now predicts, with a current budget deficit of £900 million is indeed proof that there was no way out in the particular direction they took. What is worse is that the direction they took not only failed to solve the problem for 1982, but it created by its very nature a much more difficult problem for 1983.

So I must express my disappointment with what we heard from the Taoiseach. A further disappointment was that nothing he said in his references regarding the forthcoming Economic Plan allayed the misgivings that many of us have about the nature of that plan. We had our experience of the White Paper `Economic Development' and the first economic programme that went with it, the second economic programme, the third short-lived economic programme, the manifesto of 1977 which was an economic programme and we now face the plan of 1982.

I recall many debates in this House and Senator Ryan, who has been a Senator as long as I have remembers them too, in which we discussed these various proposals. I think anyone reading those debates after this period of time would be struck by the accuracy with which many Members of this House pointed to the key factors that made this problem of economic development a question of such delicate equilibrium. The first economic programme was indeed a success. Maybe that was the worst thing that ever happened to us. It was so much of a success that the rate of economic growth under that programme was almost twice what had been programmed for. At the same time capital investment under the programme was two-and-a-half times what had been programmed for. Nevertheless the economy was capable of absorbing this amount of investment and much of it was investment that was well worth while. But when we came to the second programme we began to think it was all too easy. Here, what were we trying to do? What are we still trying to do? Trying to ensure firstly that there is economic growth at a rate that will allow a raising of the standard of living of all our people and a more equitable distribution of the national wealth; secondly, attainment of reasonably full employment, however one likes to define that; thirdly, all this combined with stable prices. In the sixties and seventies we thought the problem was that we had to plan so that we could get all three at once. It seemed in the early years we could do it. But where are we now? We have none of the three. Our growth has declined to what it was before the first programme on economic development. Our employment situation is the worst for God knows how many years. Our inflation is double that of our trading partners.

We should remember these things when we come to plan. How are we going to produce a programme, or a plan that will get us from this situation of not being able to attain any of the three objectives of growth, full employment and stable prices into a situation in which we can ultimately move to being able to achieve all three? What type of plan are we going to need in regard to this? It was perhaps ironic in this debate, in which we have agreed that there is a problem, that the proposer and seconder of the motion should in their contributions indicate they were very far apart in regard to the manner of a solution. Unless one adopts the extreme position the best plan is to have no plan. We must ask ourselves where should this country look along the spectrum between the position of no plan and the position of highly centralised rigid State planning such as obtained in the countries of eastern Europe. We all, of course, will agree that we should be somewhere in between, but where? What sort of plan should we have?

Our view in Fine Gael is the view brought forward in the post-war years by the Christian democratic parties of Europe of which we are one. It is that we must recognise in planning that it is a most delicate process, that if it is made all central then it will end up by inserting into our economy such a series of interlocking rigidities that all hope of advance will be stifled. On the other hand, under the economic conditions such as we have, and under conditions such as obtain in the world, to leave most of the work to the market forces is for an open economy such as ours a recipe for disaster. The approach that we have to follow is that we have to use the central process of planning in order to ensure that the natural market forces are not distorted. In order to ensure that there is at every level of decision-making, from the decision-making level of the wife in the supermarket, to that of the national plan and at every intervening level, we must ensure that these are related to one another so that there are no distortions that will affect the proper operation of that economy.

We ourselves have built into this economy a whole zoological garden of distortions and rigidities. Down through the years in our efforts at economic development, we have consistently refused to separate economic cost and social cost; we have blurred the two together. Most of our bad decisions have come from this blurring. To advocate that we must at all costs separate the economic factors, the economic costs and the social factors, is not to say that we should make the decision on economic factors alone. It is to say that when we do decide we should know what we are doing. We should know the price we have to pay for our social objectives because that is the only way we can know whether we are getting value for what we spend. It will have the advantage of making us define more clearly what the objectives of our social policy are. This would also be something well worth while.

If we are to have planning of this sort, we are not going to get it by means of the process which appears to be the process used for the development of the promised plan. It cannot be got merely by a series of sub-committees of experts. It cannot be got without consultation with the social partners as part of the process of developing a plan. It is no good waiting to get reactions on a printed White Paper. It is no good waiting to get reactions from the public and from various groups within the public after its publication. The great success of the plans that put some of the nations of Europe on their feet after the wars, notably the French plan which was used as a model for many others, was involvement at all levels of decision-making in the formulation of the plan. This we have not done in this country. We will never have an economic plan that will do the job we ask of our programmes and plans until we do this.

So much for the question of how we prepare our economic plans. How do we operate them? In the past what we have done is we have either operated our plans rigidly — this was rare — or we just depart from them and leave it at that. They are most inflexible, rigid plans. We will never solve our problems or find a way out of our economic muddle if we persist in such plans. If we are to make economic planning worthwhile the plan must have built-in it its own adaptability, its own control mechanism, so that it can adapt as rapidly and as automatically as possible to changes in external circumstances. Only in this way will we avoid the error of fighting each economic crisis with the weapons that were appropriate to the last economic crisis, like a series of Professor Blimp economists. We must be able to make our plans adapt in this way.

As children we learned of James Watt and the steam engine: he was presented as the person who watched the kettle boil and invented the steam engine. He did not invent the stream engine — it existed before his time — but we are right to remember him as a key figure in the Industrial Revolution. Why? It is because he invented the governor that allowed the steam engine to adapt to a varying load and this was the key invention. If we insist on using economic plans with no governors on them they will be like runaway steam engines and ultimately they will vibrate themselves to pieces. We have to avoid plans that are too rigid. I say we need flexibility but it must be the flexibility of adaptability, not the flexibility of the wobble that allows the plan to be discarded as soon as the going becomes difficult.

There is a final point I wish to make in regard to what must be an essential part of our planning. It is something that was quite specific in the Second Programme for Economic Expansion which was laid before this House in October 1963. Much has happened since that time; there was optimism at first and then the decline. There were six objectives. One dealth with the period of the plan; the second dealth with the growth that was planned; the third was concerned with emigration and employment; and there was the fourth point which must be central to any new plan. That objective was that "special attention will be given to education, training and other forms of human investment". We will make a great mistake if we cut down on this investment for the future. It is going to be rough for the present work force for a few years but if we neglect our human investment we will never recover. This must be central.

Equally, the fifth objective is something I should like to bring to the attention of the Government. That objective was that "the obligation of Ireland to give increased aid to less developed countries will be recognised". I urge the Government that this be part of any new plan. I mean this in a number of ways. Many people were disturbed by remarks the Taoiseach made about the commitment of the former Government to overseas development aid and to the fact that a special Minister of State was appointed. I hope this was only political sniping and that when it comes to the economic plan there will be built into it our commitment to the UN objective for ODA. Even more than that, we want to make part of our plan of recovery something that will help the Third World. In the freeing of trade we should consider the problems of the Third World. We will not have economic recovery unless we move up the technological ladder and we should do so in such a way that there is a smooth transition that will allow developing countries not yet ready to move up the higher rungs of the ladder to take our place in some of the functions we have now.

I cling to the hope that the plan will be better thought-out than some of its predecessors. I hope there will be the highest degree of involvement in the formulation of the plan that it will have in it its inbuilt control system. This means also inbuilt information systems, the rapid dissemination of information, because control is impossible without information. Above all, I hope we will maintain what has been something that people support even in these hard times, namely, that we keep our eyes on the Third World.

Today and yesterday we have been talking of the dreadful predicament in which we are economically but let us remember that when we class the nations of the world by wealth we are in the top sixth. Five-sixths of the world is poorer than we are, even in our present bad times. The tough times we have to go through are nothing compared to what the vast majority of our fellow-human beings have to endure. Let us not forget the human investment in our young people and let us not neglect to have a human involvement in the world as a whole.

At this stage of the debate it is difficult to speak without a certain amount of repetition and, if there is anything I dislike more than repetition, it is to be guilty of it. Nevertheless there are a few points I wish to make.

I should like to comment on the last few sentences uttered by Senator Dooge. I found what he said frightening in one sense but also somehow refreshing to hear him point out how well off we are in this country. If we are in the top one-sixth wealthy countries of the world that gives us something to think about. We must accept how lucky we are compared to our fellow-human beings in other countries.

There is a great difference between a recession and a depression. At the moment we have a recession. A depression is not something we have suffered in Ireland. As Senator Dooge pointed out, it has happened in other places; for instance, in Asia where there is starvation. We are suffering from a recession but I believe we have the will, foresight, courage and strength to pull out of it. We have considerable experience of recessions in this country. We have gone through good times and we will have to go through bad times, although it is difficult to call them bad times when we consider what other countries have to suffer. Even in the Bible there is reference to the seven fat years and the seven lean years.

Everybody admits that there is a recession and that something must be done about it. It is not enough to criticise. The tone of the debate since it started here has been quite commendable and nobody has said anything harmful or that one might take exception to in any serious manner. It has been quite a good debate. People might disagree about how to handle the various problems we have at present, but nobody disagrees that we have the problems. It is a question then of co-operation between all the sections of the community.

I look forward to the economic plan because everything depends on the attitude and the guidance of the Government of the day, and the first thing that any Government must seek is the co-operation of the very powerful trade unions. It is almost silly to point out to responsible people in trade unions that any unrest only creates further difficulties for themselves, for their members and for business. One must seek the support of farmers. I do not think of myself as being particularly knowledgeable about that area, nevertheless I believe they are going through a bad time. One must certainly seek the co-operation of business. Business needs encouragement at present.

The one thing that creates fear throughout a country at any time is uncertainty. That is why I look forward so much to the economic plan. Once it is presented you can see where you are going and one expects that the planners will stick to that course which is planned. We look forward to their pointing out how it will tackle inflation and unemployment and all the problems that exist.

We have strength as a people and it is no harm to remind ourselves at times who it was who built America, Manchester, Liverpool and London, who were the engineers, the architects and the business people involved in the great schemes in America, Australia and in European countries. We can do the same at home. I have often felt that a recession is a time when the Irish at their best, once they are given encouragement. Once the economic plan is there one can judge the chances of its success and if every group play their part the success will be sooner rather than later.

Another group besides the unions, business and farming who must play a part are the banking institutions. Many people at present have collateral for a certain amount of money which they have borrowed and they find now that the loan is being called in or the interest, now that times are bad, has increased and the value of their property has decreased. Because property values have dropped and interest rates are high, if they sell they have a liability to the bank, and even if they stay in business they still have a liability to the bank. One could be forgiven for feeling that banks are very narrow and short-sighted in their views. They are good indeed at giving lectures about tightening the belt and not living beyond our means. Their spokesmen, of course, are in secure jobs with well protected pay increases. Lectures of that type are not much comfort to the small businessman who is trying to keep going. Undue pressure from the banks during a recessionary period when times are difficult and trade is down might have a very bad effect not just on a business but on the owner personally, and if the individual allows himself to become depressed in a situation of that kind he is no longer of any value either to himself, to his business or to his country. It should be pointed out to the small businessman or farmer that he can do only what he is capable of doing, he cannot do any more and that wherever on the priority list banks might come, certainly they do not come before his own health or his family welfare. That should be his first consideration. If the banks are suggesting that people tighten their belts I respectfully suggest that they might start by tightening their own at this time

Certain agencies are entitled to words of praise because they have done so much for business. Córas Tráchtála do an excellent job throughout Europe. We are good at selling our country. It is in the nature of the Irish person to be able to sell, although sometimes we fall down on markets. We might concentrate on producing a better type of article, and we have the knowledge and the ability to do that. In computer technology the Irish people have shown exceptional ability and knowledge.

Córas Tráchtála have done a wonderful job in marketing. If there must be cutbacks — everybody would expect cutbacks in spending and not alone will it happen but it is desireable that it should happen — I respectfully suggest to the Minister that Córas Tráchtála should receive more aid. I am not aware of any cutback or any suggestion of any cutbacks in that area. The contribution to them should be greater because of their track record. They are excellent at marketing and as an agency they are well respected in Europe and in the US.

Bord Fáilte also have done wonderful work in selling Ireland, and wherever cutbacks are imposed they should not be on Bord Fáilte, and indeed more money should be given to them. Both tourism and manufacturing industry here stand to benefit from the efforts of Bord Fáilte and Córas Tráchtála. If I say much more I will be merely repeating quite a lot of what has been said. It has been a constructive debate and I look forward to what I believe will be an excellent economic plan that, with the co-operation of all, will lead to a quick recovery.

Tá áthas ormsa seans a bheith agam mo thuairimí a nochtadh díobh faoin dtairiscint atá os ár gcóir. Bhí sé de dhualgas orm cuidiú le mo chomhSheanadóirí chun an díospóireacht seo a chur ar bun agus a chur in iúl do ghnáth daoine na tíre go bhfuil an misneach againn glacadh le na fadhbanna móra atá sa mhullach orainn i lathair na h-uaire agus iad a láimhseáil i gceart. Maidir le sin, tréaslaím le Seanadóirí Ross. Ó Murchú agus Robb, mar is iadsan ba chúis leis an díospóireacht atá ar siúl anseo le dhá lá.

Much has been said and, like the previous Senators, I do not wish to be repetitive. Nonetheless, even late on a Friday night, I feel it my duty and obligation to make my contribution on how our economic conditions should be tackled. Very different views have been put forward by the proposers of the motion. Senator Murphy suggested a farm and bank nationalisation programme and the proposer of the motion, Senator Ross, suggested that we should look to the International Monetary Fund to save us from the evils that he saw besetting us. Neither of these suggestions will find favour with Government or, indeed, the main Opposition party, and rightly so.

I seriously question Senator Murphy's remedy for our ailing economy through land nationalisation or, indeed, any form of nationalisation. He has expounded the virtues of Davitt and his Land League Movement. I always associated Davitt with consolidating the position of those who had some land and ignoring those who had none. How Senator Murphy reconciles the policy of State ownership with Davitt's private ownership policy can best be answered by the Senator.

I have yet to be convinced of the productive value of land nationalisation. Socialist bloc countries, with their centrally planned economies, bear that fact out in their inability to produce sufficient food for their own needs. Were it not for the fact that capitalist countries are in a position to supply them with much of their food needs, they would face starvation, in spite of the fact that in many of these countries the land quality is just as good as in many so-called capitalist states.

To suggest that the tone of this debate should not be non-political is wishful thinking in the extreme. All utterances from politicians are tainted with plausibility and a non-willingness to face up to national responsibilities. I, like my colleagues, am deeply concerned for the future welfare of our country and am prepared to support and foster policies designed to create widespread opportunities for all our people. The speech made by the Taoiseach this morning was a general political analysis of the present dire economic situation. He has clearly spelt out the problems, without any real examination of their causes. It is a poor response to say to the worker who has received his redundancy notice "I am sorry, new technology or structural changes, or lack of demand for our product is the cause, therefore we have no further use for you." The mere fact that 30 million are unemployed in the OECD countries must foster concern for the many unemployed here. Heavy reliance on imports, particularly energy, has caused major problems. Yet in spite of the many job losses related to import of raw materials, we persist in our programme of spending £20,000 and sometimes £30,000 to create one job. Indeed, sometimes these jobs do not last long enough to give any return.

Reference has been made also to other economies within the EEC. The present state of our public finances is, in broad terms, the fault of the Government of the day — and I emphasise the Government of the day. I do not wish to be political on that score. Nonetheless, the target for this year on current expenditure was £679 million. The Finance Minister said in his budget speech "Significant real improvement on the 1981 outturn has been achieved and an earnest attempt by this Government to bring public finances under control is our major aim". He stated, some time later, that any further demands for money or income relief will be vigorously resisted. Yet, in the face of these solid and worthy commitments, he submitted to pressure on the PRSI question and cost the Exchequer £45 million at a time when the economy could not afford it.

He further conceded the extension of the medical card scheme, for which there was not a great demand, which will cost the Exchequer a further £8 million in a full year at a time when major cutbacks were being precipitated in the public sector. Concessions were made also to building societies to maintain mortgage rates at their present levels and all of these were in mind prior to by-elections in Dublin West and Galway East. On 1 July, when the half-yearly Exchequer accounts were published, the yearly target for this deficit on the current expenditure had been reached. Why did the Minister for Finance not then face up to his responsibilities and openly admit that public finances were radically out of line? The reasons were all too obvious — political advantage in the short-term, a seat in Galway East and there may have been other considerations.

The Government of the day are responsible for control of public spending, and the blame should not be placed elsewhere. The fact that the revenue deficit will exceed, or come very close to, £1,000 million is a matter of serious public concern, demands very straight answers from our public servants and calls into question the ability of the present administration to handle our affairs. Political jobbery was never more evident than in the current year and the general election and two by-elections reflect the sad state of our economy.

The editor of a morning paper questions the value of the Seanad meeting for this debate. I say it has much value in that it questions the public accountability of this Government, or any Government for that matter. It has ensured a response from the Taoiseach and he paid this House the courtesy of addressing it for the first time. General though his submissions were, they set the broad guidelines for fiscal rectitude over the next few years unless, of course, he might find it more expedient to seek a mandate from the electorate on a re-hashed manifesto which has as much realism about it as next year's snowfall. Why did the Government fail to address themselves to this problem before the Dáil recess? They were aware at the time that our finances were not measuring up to the target set. Yet they relied on the public servants, in the manner of civil servants, to give out the bad news.

This is the greatest single financial crisis to face this State for decades, and the only organ for making the public fully aware of it is through proper debate either in this House or in the Dáil. Never let us forget that, and never let us be afraid to discuss matters of public concern. We have said that we are a well-off country and that we rank sixth in wealth among the nations of the world. That may be so but that is small consolation to the deserted mother with small children, with no home and almost intolerable living conditions.

The analysis of the economic mess thus far in the debate has been well orchestrated. The blame for the present malaise must rest fairly and squarely on the shoulders of our Government or Governments. In their determination to get into power they produced ill-fated manifestoes designed to create a Utopia, or so we were led to believe, raising public expectations and then disappointing them to such an extent that you dare not mention the word "manifesto" where I come from.

Senator Lanigan suggested that there were many good attributes in the Fianna Fáil manifesto of 1977. When asked to name some, he chose either to ignore the question or was unable to do so. Unemployment and its associated evils are the greatest problem facing us. The creation of new jobs is unable to keep pace with job losses and 20,000 or more jobs have been lost in the past five years. There are 170,000 people out of work with the awful possibility that the figure may even climb to or get very close to the 200,000 figure before the end of 1983. That is an awful statistic and one which I do not welcome, and it should not be welcome news to any politician no matter to which political party he belongs.

In 1977 job creation was the major thesis of the incoming Fianna Fáil Government, and rightly so. As a public representative I then saw the problems created by unemployment. If people were given some hope of jobs for their sons or daughters they were only too ready to grasp the nettle and vote a party into power that could deliver on that. But Fianna Fáil in their determination to uphold the dignity of the manifesto, created non-productive jobs for which we are now paying the price in the cost of the public service pay bill. Little thought was put into the creation of these jobs. There was no restructuring which was much demanded in many areas of the public service. It was done because it was expedient to do so.

The Taoiseach, in his TV debate before the last election, reiterated his commitment to creating jobs. He almost gave the impression that, if returned to office, he would pull them from the sky, thereby giving false hope to an aspiring work force whose only contact with the wealth of Ireland is in the labour exchange and the post office. A figure of 170,000 people unemployed, and rising, is no source of consolation to any politician regardless of party affiliation: 70,000 of these fall within the youth category and 45,000 are below the age of 25. This is a frightening statistic, no matter how profound one is in the expression of hope for the future employment of our children.

The 65,000 school leavers can have little hope unless drastic action to harness the slide is acceptable to those who have in favour of those who have not. The greatest challenge and problem facing any Government is to get a commitment across the board that people will make sacrifices to achieve a fair and equitable distribution of wealth for all our children. This principle is enshrined in our Constitution and which we laud so often.

A Government who spend large sums of money on unprofitable and uneconomic ventures serve only to increase unemployment. Short-term gains lead to long-term losses. The financing of white elephants like Knock airport and the Whitegate oil refinery is counter productive. It saves a few jobs: it generates a few jobs; it gets a few votes; but it damages the economy in the long term. For their own advantage all political parties are guilty of that practice at one stage or another.

Reference was made to the Fieldcrest factory in Kilkenny. The Government refused to explore the possibility of taking an equity share with Carrolls and the Bank of Ireland to maintain this most modern factory at its original employment level. The whole Fieldcrest operation, has been discussed by the Government and by the various other agencies, politicians and everybody concerned with employment. How can an American company with a £2.5 million investment in a £30 million project — and I emphasise somewhere in the region of a £30 million project — be allowed to take a 51 per cent share of the company and to be able to get out when the going gets tough and recover its losses in its own country through income tax and so on? That is the crude situation in Fieldcrest, Kilkenny. The most recent announcement is that a Belgian company is to move in and take over a small section of the factory, and possibly procure 120 to 150 jobs. At least this is something, but it is hardly sufficient consolation for the 500 people who are committed to the scrap heap.

Like Senator Murphy I agree that agriculture has enormous potential for development. The agricultural industry needs an injection of confidence. Each job created by the processing of agricultural raw materials will yield a profit far in excess of what a similar or an equivalent industrial job will yield. We are creating jobs at the cost of £20,000 to £30,000 to the taxpayer, and they are dependent on imported materials. These materials are subject to the varying changes in currency rates, to increases in prices, with the result that after a year or two in operation the company has gone to the wall.

My colleague, Senator Hourigan, gave a long treatise on how best to develop agriculture. There is no doubt — I have said this in a recent debate in this forum regarding the potential of agriculture and I will continue to say it — that the politicians should wake up and realise that there is a far greater value to the ordinary people of Ireland in the development of agriculture, and the sooner the better for all of us. Equally, tourism and fishing have enormous potential and for some unknown reason Governments have failed to recognise these facts.

The social implications of mass unemployment are enormous. On the social side we have witnessed in the past number of years rising crime rates, increasing bank raids and so on. There are I understand about 6,000 convicted criminals who through the lack of space in our institutions are free to wander a day or two after the conviction has been announced. I sympathise with a Minister for Finance or a Minister for Justice having to face up to and contend with these problems. I understand that there is a programme designed to generate the necessary space but equally important we need educational facilities so that people who are unfortunate to have spent terms in these institutions will have an opportunity to be repatriated back into society, that society will mean something to them and will give something to them also.

The tasks facing any Government are enormous. There is a growing cynicism about our political attitudes and achievements. Promises or pious platitudes for economic survival, unless achievable, lead to further frustration and further cynicism. Let us resolve therefore to find a way forward which will generate confidence in the various important sectors vitally necessary for the full development of all our resources. I am not certain — and I hate to have to say this in the presence of a competent Minister — that the present administration have the necessary resolve to deliver on their new-found economic programme. Economic programmes are notorious for being shelved. They began away back in 1958 and, as Senator Dooge has just mentioned, the targets set then were doubled; but equally the investment was more than doubled. We are, according to the Taoiseach this morning, about to be re-invigorated by another economic plan. Although we have had many of these plans nonetheless we face the nineties and the next century with unemployment higher than ever it has been in the history of the State.

The concept of work and the creation of the proper incentives to work must command a serious place in any future plans. New tax structures designed to achieve a fair share from every sector are essential. Otherwise all efforts to ensure that jobs will not be lost through indifference to work cannot be guaranteed because it will be more profitable to be redundant. I am afraid that we are caught in the web of that situation now. People consistently ask me if it is not more profitable to be unemployed. Nonetheless, I sympathise fully with the many people, the greater percentage of our people, who want employment but who for reasons well known to us are unable to achieve that much-sought desire. How can they face their day-to-day commitments not knowing when a redundancy notice will be served? It is not easy for us as Members of the Seanad, possibly with one or two salaries, to realise the difficulties which confront these unfortunate people. Why, therefore, did the present Government not pursue its stated policy of taxing short-term welfare benefits? This is another example of their lack of political courage. Many Fianna Fáil members know that would have been the right course of action.

The debate has gone on for two days. Having listened to many of the speeches, I am at a loss to know whether this is the right form of debating a motion as wide as this one. While I put my name to the motion, and I have no regrets about having done so, it was the first opportunity for me, as a Senator, to make a contribution in the presence of Government Ministers — I hope that in some new restructuring of the Seanad we will be given the opportunity and the time on a much wider scale than heretofore to debate issues such as the one we have debated during the past two days.

Leis sin, guím rath Dé ar an obair agus gabhaim buíochas díobh uile.

Nílimse chun seasamh anseo chun caint ar feadh b'fhéidir leath uaire a chloig nó mar sin mar a dhein anchuid daoine inniú toisc go raibh leath uaire a chloig ag rá gach rud direach mar a Má sheasaim anseo ag caint ar feadh leath uaire a chloig ag rá gach rud díreach mar a dúirt an chuid is mó daoine, ar mo thaobhsa den Teach ar a laghad, ní dóigh liom go ndéanfeadh sé sin aon mhaitheas do dhíospóireacht mar seo. Ba cheart dúinn nuair a bhimid ag díospóireacht gan bheith ag caint díreach treasna an Tí eadrainn féin ach caint mar is ceart dúinn bheith ag caint, gan caint chun bheith ag éisteacht linn féin nó go mbeadh ár nainmneacha ar dhá leathanach den Tuairisc Oifigiúil. Ní shin é an chúis bheith ag díospóireacht. Ba cheart dúinn bheith ag díospóireacht ar rudaí atá inár n-aigne agus inár gcroíthe, agus iad a rá. Dúradh an rud céanna ar an dtaobh eile tríocha uair inniu agus ar an dtaobh seo tríocha uair inniu, agus níor labhair gach duine fós. Ní dóigh liom go raibh mórán cúis leis an rud sin a dhéanamh.

Ba mhaith liom a rá nach bhfuil an Seanadóir annseo inniu a dhein an chuid is mó cainte agus a bhí a ghriangraf ar gach páipéar ó Chorcaigh go Baile Átha Cliath, agus b'fhéidir go Béal Feirste, agus é ag caint mar gheall ar an obair a bhí le déanamh aige nuair a thiocfadh sé isteach sa tSeanad inné agus inniu. Tá sé ar ais in a ollscoil ag caint le micléinn mar gheall ar an fear is fearr a bhí riamh againn sa tír seo, Éamon de Valera; ach is dócha nuair a bheidh seisean ag caint mar gheall ar Éamon de Valera go mbeidh sé ag caint ó phointe Pravda, mar a bhí sé ag caint inné.

As I have said, this has been a useful exercise. However, a lot of its usefulness has been dissipated by the fact that each Senator was given half an hour in which to express his views. Having been given a half an hour apparently most Senators decided they would take half an hour, for what reason I do not know. Was it merely in an endeavour to fill two pages of the Official Report or was it just to keep the debate going that much longer? Most things said in the half hours allocated and taken by most Senators represented repetition of what was said yesterday afternoon and this morning. It is a wastage of the time of the Seanad to decide deliberately to conduct a debate in such a manner. Certainly we should say what is in our minds, that is why we are here — we were elected to say what is in our minds — and we were elected to say what is in our hearts. But we were not elected to stand up and speak for half an hour in order to keep the ball going. We abused the privileges of this House to some extent today and it worries me.

I am particularly disappointed that one of the instigators of the motion who had his photograph on every paper from The Cork Examiner to the Belfast Telegraph did not think it worth his while to be in attendance here today. He is back in his ivory tower in Cork giving a lecture, a sermon or whatever it is he gives, on the life and times of de Valera. I would hasten to add that it will be the Pravda edition of the life and times of de Valera we will get if one is to believe what we heard from him yesterday.

We have to scrutinise many of our agencies and ascertain how well they work. Here I am referring to agencies concerned mainly with employment and education. Under the 1930 Vocational Act we set up a system of training and education. I think it was section 30 thereof which enjoins members of vocational committees to provide further and continuing education for our people. If we utilised the facilities afforded in that Act somewhat more, we might not then be setting up so many agencies that do not live up to our expectations. For example, some time last year the National Youth Employment Agency, about which there was a great flurry, was set up. As a member of the Standing Council of the Irish Vocational Education Association I happened to attend a meeting of the National Youth Employment Agency to discuss with their members what was happening. I discovered that those who had been enjoined to run the National Youth Employment Agency asked us, as members of the Standing Council of the Irish Vocational Education Association if we could suggest to them how they should run the National Youth Employment Agency. I am not very good at figures, I am not an economist. I do not know what amount of money was given to the National Youth Employment Agency. However, that money should have been channelled through the vocational education committees, who are the training and educational bodies instead of setting up another agency to do exactly what the vocational educational committees and AnCO are doing. These are the matters we need to watch in planning our economy, in planning the life of our nation. If we looked seriously at those fields we might do a lot more constructively.

Senator Dowling talked about prisoners and the need for their education in prison. I am not too sure about Limerick but I know that the City of Dublin VEC have a prison service. In the last five years I spent at least ten days on interview boards for teachers for that service. I can assure Senators that when one sits on an interview board for ten days one is fairly fed up when it concludes.

One point dwelt on at some length was the necessity for our people to buy Irish. If we make a wholehearted attempt at buying Irish we shall alleviate some of our problems.

Yesterday afternoon I discovered that I had not brought up a change of shirt or socks. I decided I would go across to Grafton Street to buy myself a shirt and a pair of socks. I went into Switzers and bought myself a shirt made in Ireland. But, when I looked for a pair of socks made in Ireland, they had not any. When I asked why they had not the assistant said they would have them in tomorrow, that in one of our biggest stores. They did not have a pair of socks made in Ireland. Indeed, there is a factory in Balbriggan finding it difficult to keep going who produce some of the best socks available here — Healthex. Yet Switzers did not have a pair of Irish-made socks. On my way back I called into another shop——

An Leas-Chathaoirleach

The Chair would point out to the Senator that he should not name the establishments.

I apologise. I did not know that.

An Leas-Chathaoirleach

It is unfair advertising.

I learn a little every day. Thank you. I called into another establishment to look for a pair of socks. Again I could not get a pair of socks made in Ireland. That was yesterday afternoon. How in the name of God can we expect Irish industry to keep going if big department stores in this city, and probably in many other towns, have this attitude towards Irish products and Irish-made goods?

I was talking to a fruit grower the other day. I was out giving him a hand, with his harvesting. He was telling me that he was in the fruit market where there were strawberries for sale on the auctioneers' benches. A shopkeeper came in and the auctioneer said to this large tomato grower: "Do you see this shopkeeper? I bet you my bottom dollar that when I show him the different strawberries he will take either the Spanish or Dutch strawberries but he will not take the Irish" and the Irish were a penny a punnet less. Are we serious about buying home produce when one sees this type of thing? The big stores must give the lead. They are the people who sell the greatest amount of products. If they do not give the lead in ensuring that we help Irish industry people will be made redundant. The more people made redundant the less spending power they have, and the less spending power they have the less those shops will make. Therefore even if they looked at the economics of it they would ensure that they would stock Irish products in their shops.

I would like to repeat what has been said by many people because I think it warrants repeating, that is that the proposer of the motion yesterday mentioned the intervention of the International Monetary Fund. As was said most forcibly by. I think, Senator Mallon this evening, we spent long enough fighting for our freedom in this part of the country and therefore we should not, under any circumstances, hand over that freedom to any external body.

When I signed this historic request for the recall of the Seanad I did so in the hope that there would emerge from the debate some ray of hope for the economic recovery of the country, that Government speakers would concentrate on the measures they would propose, to put a halt to the appalling increase in the number of people unemployed. I had expected to hear about some sweeping measures calculated to instil in the minds of our highly qualified young people a sense of hope and confidence in the future.

One would have hoped to learn of strong positive measures which would reassure the thousands of young couples throughout the country, who a few short years ago, in times of relative economic stability, undertook the responsibility of house mortgages and prepared to raise a family. Because of the huge increases in the cost of living since then, many of these people are now unable to meet their financial commitments.

So far in this debate, with the exception of the Taoiseach's contribution, I have not heard anything from the Government side which sounded even remotely like a signal for the recovery of industry or agriculture, both of which are fundamental to national prosperity.

Instead, we have heard a number of wide-ranging speeches, some dealing with world affairs, some expressing grave concern for the welfare of East European countries, others still blaming the British, the press, Fine Gael and the National Coalition Government for the economic decline which began with the now infamous 1977 Fianna Fáil manifesto.

Fine Gael have been accused of being anti-Irish, anti-nationalistic and insensitive to the feelings of the people, yet it was Fine Gael that introduced proposals for a just society, and the founders of Fine Gael were also the founders of our 20th century nationalism — a historic fact which seems to have escaped some people.

However, we should not on this side of the House allow ourselves to be deflected by a few red herrings from saying or doing what is right. In order more fully to appreciate the present Government's failure to deal with the country's economic problems, or even to get their figures right in their so-called proposals to rectify the situation, we must cast our minds back a little.

When the National Coalition Government under Deputy Garret FitzGerald as Taoiseach, took office on 30 June 1981, an immediate appraisal of Government spending was undertaken and it was soon discovered that unless corrective measures were taken, there would not be sufficient funds to pay the public service by the month of October in that year. A supplementary budget was introduced by the then Minister for Finance, Deputy John Bruton, which set out to correct the massive budget deficit, and it is to his eternal credit that the projections in that supplementary budget were remarkably accurate, a feature which seems to have left office with him.

However, at that time the Government were accused of "Monetarism and Thatcherism", of creating economic instability by preaching doom and gloom. In fact what our Government were doing was introducing a much needed breath of realism, something which had disappeared in 1977 when the public were led to believe that they could expect an increase and an improvement in public services, and at the same time achieve a lower degree of taxation. It took until July 1982, one year later, for the present Government to recognise that their boom and bloom policies, so well publicised in February of this year, were not on. But what has this Damascusian conversion cost our economy since those hazy crazy days of boom and bloom? I would suggest that some of the cuts now being proposed would not have been nearly so severe if action had been taken in time.

It is now the duty of the Government to introduce a comprehensive agricultural policy — this has been referred to by a number of Senators and I do not propose to repeat what they said — which would create the atmosphere for expansion and increased output. Because of the indigenous nature of agriculture incentives must be provided which will encourage increased production in the beef, grain and dairy sectors. Food processing, the whole area of agricultural by-products — one can think of hundreds of them — can be utilised readily for job creation purposes and can affect dramatically our serious balance of payments problem. This is essential if we are to improve that balance of payments situation.

We should also examine whether some of our EEC partners are breaking the rules to suit themselves while we have always been advised to adhere to EEC regulations. A typical case was illustrated in The Evening Herald of 18 September last when, at a time when fruit and vegetables are being dumped in this country, Dutch glasshouse growers are being subsidised through a Government scheme to give cheap fuel oil to the growers. This has been alluded to by a number of other speakers. In what other areas are the Irish agricultural, horticultural and industrial sectors being discriminated against in this fashion? An investigation should be undertaken into the extent of such abuses and Ireland if necessary should introduce its own incentive schemes.

At meetings throughout the county in which I live, again and again it has been said that there is little or no incentive to work, both from the point of view of workers and employers. I have given Kildare as an example because it is the county I know best, but the situation there only reflects the position throughout the country.

Some speakers have suggested the nationalisation of agricultural land as the resolution of our problems. Let me say that I reject such a philosophy out of hand as the last resort of experts who have again got it wrong and who do not seem to recall the disastrous results of such policies when pursued in other countries.

The recovery of agriculture is essential to counties like Kildare which has a large agricultural community as well as an extensive industrial sector. One should not conflict with the other, but both can combine their efforts to invigorate our economy.

In the industrial sector both workers and employers have been severely hit in recent times for a number of reasons. On the one hand, employers have been faced with high interest rates, high PRSI contributions, high taxation and an overwhelming amount of administration resulting from their attempts to comply with Government demands for new and increased forms of taxation. On the other hand, the workers have the same problems — high taxation, high PRSI contributions, a high cost of living and a total absence of any incentive to work.

There are numerous instances, in terms of job losses, that will readily illustrate these views. In the last few years in County Kildare we have experienced the closure of major industries in such towns as Naas, Newbridge, Celbridge, Monas-terevan and Athy, and unfortunately Athy again recently has been in the news regarding the impending closure of another established industry, IVI Foundries, with the possible loss of a further 120 jobs. I hope the IDA will use every possible means to ensure that this industry will be allowed to continue in operation and that job losses will be averted.

There is now in County Kildare an urgent need to ensure that viable industry is not allowed or forced to close for reasons of short-term cash flow problems — a country-wide problem. We must remember that in the last two years alone more than 700 jobs were lost in manufacturing industry in County Kildare. In May 1980, for instance, the number of people registered unemployed was 1,661. In May 1982 the number had risen to 3,437, more than double in two years. This is an alarming situation. Again, I would point out that it is only symptomatic of what is happening right across the country.

The IDA, on the other hand, have been valiantly trying to make good these losses. In Kildare there is approximately 130,000 square feet of unused factory space available for industrial purposes as well as a further 68,000 square feet of new factory space. Very recently the IDA proposed to set up an industrial estate in Leixlip which should have the advantage of giving renewed hope to the county generally and in fact also to the people in the outer Dublin area. However, in the setting up of all new industries, I believe that the emphasis should now be placed on industries that have an indigenous nature since such industry would be of much more benefit to the community at large.

Industry is also suffering as a result of increased fuel costs. This was never more obvious than at the present, with all the confusion as to who got the figures wrong following the nationalisation of the Whitegate Refinery. Regardless of which Government Department got the figures wrong, we cannot allow the strangulation of industry through massively increased fuel charges which ultimately could cost far more in terms of job losses than the refinery can compensate for in terms of employment. When Government spending cuts are under consideration — and we believe that cuts may be necessary — we say that if such cuts are introduced they should only be made in such a way as to ensure that irreparable damage is not done to the infrastructural area. Telecommunications, for instance, is one aspect that readily comes to mind. I would emphasise that industry cannot survive if our telecommunications are inferior. Indeed that matter in relation to industry has been the subject of much criticism and it is valid.

In a country with one million poor, cuts in the health services should only be undertaken after long and careful planning and then only if the more vulnerable in our society are protected.

Finally, I believe that if this country's economy is to recover, we need the incentive to work and to invest, an incentive that should be tax-based and applied to workers and employers in both industry and agriculture. An attractive export credit finance scheme could be introduced which would enable our exporters to meet their foreign competitors on an equal footing. VAT at point of entry should be abolished since it only gives an artificial optimistic appearance to our budget deficit. The National Housing Agency scheme should be extended to give every young couple the opportunity to buy and own their own home. This would of course bring about a revival in the building industry and remove some of the burden of housing from our under-financed local authorities.

Staff increases in the public sector should be discouraged until such time as industry and agriculture recover sufficiently to meet the cost of the services. This country can only afford what the productive sector can pay for and unfortunately for some years now we have been asked in that sector to meet higher and higher charges. This cannot obviously go on. The time has come when some arrangement should also be made to provide those who have been unemployed for a long period with short term emergency relief employment. This could involve works of an environmental improvement nature or some similar areas and need not cost the Exchequer anything more than is already being spent in terms of unemployment benefit.

Many speakers have referred to the need for a new awakening of patriotism and, indeed, unless we can achieve this among our consumers in the very near future, economic recovery will never become a reality. If one goes into the shops and the supermarkets of any of our cities or towns at present and examines the amount of shelf space that is given over to the display of foreign goods — which are only being displayed there purely because they are being purchased by our own consumers — one can then readily recognise the lack of patriotism we are experiencing in this country at present. The "Buy Irish" campaign does not really seem to have had any effect on most of our consumers. This is a very sad thing because if we cannot encourage our own consumers to support their own industry I cannot understand how we can expect people in other countries to support our products. We should also ensure that benefits accruing from our meagre natural resources are not lost to the country through selfishness or petty squabbling.

In conclusion, we in this country have sought but have not got leadership from the present Government. Much play has been made in the last couple of days during this debate about the dramatic drop in inflation and the obvious hope that this presents for the community. The only reason that the drop has been so dramatic is purely because there is no consumer buying power in the country at present. There is no money in the country to buy and consequently there is a drop in inflation. The drop has come about for the worst possible reasons and likewise there has been a drop in our imports for the very self same reason. The drop in inflation is necessary and desirable but it can be at a very great cost if we eventually arrive at a situation when, as it now appears, our consumers do not have the purchasing power to get their regular needs.

I felt when this debate was first mooted that if nothing else was achieved we would have at least an opportunity of discussing the economy and determining whether or not the present Government would now accept that we were in a deep recession and that very severe, very drastic and very realistic measures were necessary to change the course on which we were heading. I am not so certain that we have got that. We have got an analysis of the problems but certainly with the exception of the proposed economic plan — and we have to wait until we see that to know whether it proposes anything new — we have heard nothing by way of remedy for our problems. In relation to this plan I would welcome it but I would sincerely hope that the targets and projections which will undoubtedly be a feature of the plan will have a greater degree of accuracy than the projections of the 1982 budget.

We are meeting here today behind a backdrop of economic and social upheaval and uncertainty, not just in Ireland but throughout the western world, the like of which has not been seen since the end of the Second World War. Ireland is not unique in this regard. We have only to look to the more advanced economies such as the US, West Germany and Britain for confirmation of this. In these countries one can see unprecedented levels of unemployment, a decline in living standards. Most of you do not need me to remind you of the stark realities facing our people. Nevertheless, as parliamentarians I feel it is our duty to be brutally frank, first with ourselves, and secondly with the people of our country whom we represent through the democratic process which we jealously guard and strive to defend. It behoves us as politicians to give the people and the country the leadership and the confidence to seek solutions to the dreadful scourges of modern society throughout the world of high unemployment and in Ireland, high inflation.

At this critical time in our history we must devise solutions to these problems and, above all, we must have hope and confidence in the future; otherwise our society will become paralysed with the fear once described by another parliamentarian as the fear of fear itself. We can offer no hope to the young generation of educated and articulate unemployed or the middle-aged loyal workers who have striven to make this a better country in which to live, but who are now shattered and helpless through redundancy. I refer to people in the 40 to 55 years of age bracket:

In last Sunday's Independent Dr. T.K. Whitaker identified four of the adverse factors affecting employment, and I quote:

(1) The world recession — transitory, one hopes, and amenable to co-ordinate action by major industrial countries,

(2) Ireland's high inflation rate — capable of being reduced by a combination of income restraint, productivity improvement and fiscal prudence,

(3) Growing competition from the newly developing countries of the Third World, and

(4) The uncertain implications of technological change.

All of these factors are at play and damaging industrial production and consumption. However, I believe that, while further industrialisation is obviously a prerequisite to correcting our problems and providing the growth that is necessary to expand our productive employment and reverse the decline in living standards, we should not and cannot overlook agriculture and the potential of the food processing sector in this regard. However, the consequences of the downturn in farm output in recent years are blatantly evident to all of us and none more so than the near annihilation of our beef processing industry. To provide the necessary space in which to develop our food processing industry is within our own control, providing we pursue pragmatic and intelligent policies.

Here I eagerly await the publication of the Government's four year plan for agriculture now being prepared by our Minister for Agriculture, Deputy Lenihan. Innovation and original thinking must be the cornerstone of this plan. It must evolve new policies at the production and marketing stage. It must identify ways to improve the efficiency of beef production which can be brought about only by increased specialisation. To encourage specialisation, the encouragement of localised producer groups with advisory service and research backing would make an important contribution. In the most neglected part of France, which is the area of Brittany, where they have developed those producer groups, their agriculture in the area of horticulture has expanded and would put our horticulture producers on the run.

The dairy sector has been spared from this starvation of raw materials because of higher productivity and a relatively higher income for dairy farmers. While our Government must pursue meaningful price increases through the common agricultural policy from Brussels for our farm products, they can also stimulate production first through prudent management of the economy and the economic environment and, secondly, through concentrating finance and expertise in the area of marketing, particularly the development of branded products.

Heretofore too much reliance has been placed on disposing of our agricultural production as commodities which in fact should be the building blocks for a vibrant food processing sector. While our dairy processing industry developed out of recognition through the seventies, today it is over-reliant on the two intervention products of butter and skim milk which have made our marketing agency mainly an intervention agency. This is a soft option and one which the Government must strive to discourage with the help of Bord Bainne and the co-operative movement. While I am critical of the state of affairs in the area of livestock products, I am enraged at the total lack of co-ordination within the horticultural sector, and how we treat our most basic crop, potatoes.

With a favourable climate and the potential to be a real force in this area, not alone have we been displaced on export markets, but a scandalous situation has developed in which we have lost a substantial part of our domestic market. While some people will lay the blame for this on our uncompetitiveness, I believe this is only part of the problem. More fundamentally our weakness lies in the disorganised state of our marketing arrangements. In this whole area of marketing of Irish food products, the Government must play a more central role. For far too long the easy "opt-out" that our hands are tied by Brussels in this regard has been disastrous. I am reinforced in my belief by evidence from France where the Government play a central role in setting up producer groups and the development of branded food products. In turn the payback has been greater efficiency in production and a higher realisation for the finished product.

Turning to farm incomes, one has to say that inflation has had a most serious effect. Farm product prices are fixed each year on a central basis for the ten countries of the EEC and usually reflect the level of price increase necessary to maintain supplies and, as far as possible, farmers' incomes. While the level of increases in 1982-83 of ten per cent may appear reasonable for Irish farmers, it still represents a real decline in income and starves agriculture of the funds so necessary for re-investment. This erosion of income and having to sustain high interest rates have sapped the confidence of farmers and must be corrected. Agriculture is the single most exposed sector of the economy. Inflation has a knock-on effect on farmers' incomes. It is estimated that each one per cent increase in inflation above the price increase granted from Brussels in any one year reduces a farmer's real income by between three and four per cent. This is a frightening reality and, of course, has the most serious consequences for the processing and marketing sectors in terms of competitiveness.

While I welcome the trend reflected in the August consumer price index, there is no room for complacency. A further reduction in inflation which is now confidently predicted will enable the productive sector of our economy, that is, agriculture, manufacturing industry and tourism, to expand as the world economy emerges from recession. While the man in the street, especially if he is unemployed or on social welfare, may be forgiven for dismissing inflation as a phenomenon devised by economists and politicians, the reality is that it is an erosive force working around the clock in our society destroying living standards.

Political opportunists may criticise the Government and blame their expansionary policies as the cause of our inflation. Against this criticism we must balance the impact of monetarist austerity measures and the influence on unemployment which they have had in our neighbouring economy against the more balanced policies pursued by this Government in the interests of Irish people.

We had an outburst from Senator Murphy yesterday when he was bank bashing. While we have our criticisms of the banking institutions, I cannot go along with his criticism. They are a productive sector, and they are business people. We must uphold the right of private enterprise in a free society.

Senator Murphy and Senator West want to become the new type landlords. I challenge them on the right of private ownership for which our forefathers fought. Any attempt to interfere with that right will be strongly resisted by Irish farmers, big or small. I looked up a few statistics late this evening, and agriculture cannot be blamed altogether for our economic trouble. Gross output in 1979 was £127,240,000. In 1982 it had increased to £160 million. The return on capital for farming in the period 1975-80 was only two per cent, while the manufacturing industrial return was 19 per cent. In 1965-69 farm business growth was at the rate of 25.8 per cent. The non-farming sector grew only at the rate of 18.2 per cent. In 1970-74 period farm growth was at the rate of 27.9 per cent. The non-farming sector was more or less stagnant at 18.7 per cent. In 1975-80 farm growth decreased slightly. It levelled off at about 27 per cent. The non-farming sector increased to 22.5 per cent. Farm growth over the last 15 years has been greater than in the non-farming sector. The return on capital employed in farming has been substantially lower over the last 15 years.

Senator Murphy's solutions to our economic problems are as unrealistic as his solution to the unification of our country. The major contributor to our economic problems is the high cost of Border security which has been forced upon us by the continuation of British occupation of the north-eastern part of our country. The cost over the last ten years is estimated in the region of £1 billion. I estimate that if this continues it will cost the hard-pressed PAYE sector a further figure of £2 billion in the next ten years. Can we tolerate this? Senator Murphy would fare better if he used his talents to support the Government's present stand towards the unification of our country and the removal of the Border. The money which is wasted at present could be channelled into producing jobs and would bring about a substantial reduction in taxation.

Surprisingly, Senator Murphy's idea of agriculture varies from that of his colleague, the well-known Professor Tom Rafferty, renowned agriculturist, holding the chair of agriculture at that prestigious school which once taught, "Let Munster learn". It is sad to see a fellow county man, who should be a good Irishman, straying away from the great national ideal for the Irish people and trying to introduce doctrinaire policies to the people — an ideology that is alien to them.

If agriculture is to expand — I believe it will further expand, we have proof of this from the figures I have quoted — we must have a more realistic taxation policy for farmers. We have a system based on a business assessment but we must look at an alternative system. The only way we can survive is through livestock production. That is the wealth of our country. Breeding animals is a vocation. One must be up late at night and early in the morning. The farmers will respond if they are given the correct environment.

I do not want to sound political at this stage but when Deputy Dukes, who is an agricultural economist, was Minister for Agriculture he supported a reduction in farm grants and brought about increased inflation by increasing taxation. That did much to erode the confidence of farmers as did the actions of another able man in that Cabinet, Deputy John Bruton, who comes from a strong farming background.

I thank the Chair for listening at this late hour. Something good may come out of this debate. We are not the only power in the world with problems. If we look at the UK economy there are nearly three-and-a-half million people unemployed, inflation rates are rising, wage rates have levelled off and there has been no upturn in industrial production. Look at Germany. There have been substantial increases in unemployment, unheard of since the war, inflation is rising and there is instability of Government.

I was another of the Members who lent my signature for the recall of the Seanad. I do not regret this because a debate will help to highlight the many problems we have at present. It is true to say that everybody knows the problems we face. The Coalition Government succeeded in getting the message across to all the people of the sorry, sad state the country was in. Even if they did nothing else, their seven months in office was well worth while for that reason alone.

Some Senators today mentioned Dr. Whitaker. A speaker a few minutes ago referred to him and pointed out some solutions Dr. Whitaker put forward as to how we could get the economy going again. He did not mention the one reason Dr. Whitaker blamed for all of our trouble. All our problems — and everybody realises this — started in 1977. When the Coalition Government left office after four years the economy was sound. At that time, during the 1977 election and perhaps afterwards, some of us were inclined to blame Richie Ryan and the leader of the party for not promising something to the electorate. They refused to do that. They said they would be honest with the people, as they had been during their four years in office. They faced the election in 1977 with — one can look back now with hindsight — no hope of winning against all the Fianna Fáil promises and handouts. The result of that was, of course, the biggest ever majority for Fianna Fáil — 20 seats of a majority. One would have thought at that time that something could have been done. Unpopular but correct decisions for the country could have been taken with a majority of 20 seats. But the problems were not tackled. Most of the time during that term was spent on internal fighting about leadership. It would appear, apart from borrowing all the money that was needed, that nothing was done. Unfortunately those promises were fulfilled. Fianna Fáil would have been forgiven if they were not fulfilled. They were fulfilled but the people did not realise when they got those handouts they would still have to pay for them in the years ahead. It was like giving somebody a Christmas box and telling him at Easter that it was not paid for, he would have to pay for it himself. That is the comparison I would make.

We were glad the Taoiseach came to talk to us today but disappointed at the end because there was no ray of hope for anybody. We have heard many of these speeches in the past. There was very little consolation for the unemployed or for people in financial difficulties. There are many such people at present. Many people throughout the length and breadth of this country do not believe that this Government can tackle and solve the problems we have today. They cannot solve the problems because at all times they must look over their shoulders to see if a certain gentleman will support them. It is a minority Government. I cannot believe that a Government who had a majority of 20 seats and did not tackle the problem will do so now when they are depending on the support of an Independent Member who has got more than his fair share of the national cake. Indeed, every other part of the country has suffered as a result of trying to satisfy the greed of this man who has the Government over a barrel.

We heard much about agriculture today. We drained and ploughed the ground. We produced more than was ever produced before and now that we have all that done Senator Murphy wants to take it from us. Unfortunately he is not present in the House now and perhaps it is not fair to attack a person in his absence. Another Senator made the case that some of the people in the PAYE sector could carry on farming better than people at present in the industry. I am a farmer. I am not making a personal attack on any PAYE worker but, generally speaking, people in this area work a 40-hour week. Farmers who have worked so hard during the years would not know what was meant by a 40-hour week. They work day and night in order to survive.

A few years ago people really thought the farmers had made money because they had a few good years. During that time farmers got on their feet after a long struggle and they did everything that was asked of them by the Government of the day. They increased productivity, they drained their land, they improved their buildings. Generally everyone benefited as a result because a considerable amount of employment was generated. Unfortunately, in the middle of all of this progress they were caught by the increase in input costs, the increase in interest rates and in inflation. Because they had responded to the call of the Government of the day farmers found themselves in considerable trouble. A recent survey has shown that 1,400 farmers are facing real difficulties. In the past week the Minister for Agriculture has indicated that there will be some cutbacks in farming. That is bad news for the many farmers who are in dire trouble.

It has been said that we are not producing enough. Some Senators referred to the "Buy Irish" campaign. This could also apply to the items produced by the farmers. A few nights ago I attended a meeting of farmers in my county and they said that last year Irish apples were fed to cattle. In that area it cannot be said that the farmers did not produce enough for the home market. They have to compete with produce from all the EEC countries. The point is that in some shops Irish apples were not for sale because they preferred to stock apples from other countries. I accept that they may have been presented in a more attractive way but they cost more than the Irish apples.

We must accept the fact that we import fruit and vegetables to the value of £36.7 million which could be replaced by home-produced goods. In 1981 we had imports of fresh vegetables at a value of £14 million and the figure is likely to be higher this year. The vegetables were mainly cabbage, onions, carrots and sprouts — all of them could easily be grown here. If the Minister would inject some capital into this area which is badly needed it would solve to some extent our balance of payments problem. It will have to be done eventually.

The area of land used for growing vegetables to be sold commercially has remained static over the last four years at 11,000 acres. The demand for such vegetables has been filled by imports. Special measures must be adopted to deal with production, processing and marketing in order to streamline the operation if we are to maximise our own resources. Agencies such as ACOT, the Agricultural Institute, Córas Tráchtála and marketing boards as well as people in the trade must be motivated to work in a co-ordinated and efficient way in order to get the best results on the home scene as well as exporting efficiently and competitively. The entire area of packaging, presentation and processing, coupled with an effective and dynamic marketing effort at home and abroad, can make a significant difference to our overall economic position. Pursuance of these objectives would help in three vital areas: the creation of more employment, a reduction in our import bill and a reduction in our balance of payments deficit, thus increasing significantly the value of our exports. This would enable us to become an efficient food exporter.

As a nation we must aim to produce for market requirements rather than merely market what is produced. Obviously the Government, in conjunction with people in the industry, would have a key role to play. It must be conceded that something has to be done. I accept that money is scarce at the moment but it is necessary that we give all help to agriculture. Senators have referred already to the problems faced by farmers who have over-borrowed and who are under considerable pressure from the banks and lending agencies. Somebody must come to their aid because they cannot be allowed to go to the wall. The dole queues are long enough.

Farmers are prepared to work long hours and they should be helped. A point raised recently by farmers was in relation to price fixing in Brussels. This always seems to drag on for months. Negotiations do not start on time and certainly they do not finish on time. Generally the farming community loses out in respect of a few months each year. Retrospective agreements are made for other workers and this should be done for farmers. I appeal to the Minister who is involved in the negotiations to make a deal on these lines.

Another cause of complaint during the past number of years has been the question of grants. The grant costing was completely out of date. One little ray of hope is that this new four-year plan accepts that grant costings are out of date. The plan states that at present the 70 per cent drainage grants are worth only between 25 and 30 per cent of the actual cost of investment to farmers while farm building grants, which normally increase from 25 per cent to 30 to cent some months ago were working out at as low as ten per cent. This is equivalent to covering only the interest cost of investment works for the first six to eight months. I hope that something will be done about that. Many people who have carried out drainage and building jobs were very disappointed when they found that their estimates of the jobs are not accepted but rather an estimate based on a 1978 figure and for that reason they fell well short of their target. They expected when they started the job that they would be getting 30 per cent of the estimated cost.

Another thing worrying farmers and people in the machinery trade at the moment is the question of 18 per cent VAT. Farmers will inevitably have to pay more for machinery and spare parts as a result of the 18 per cent VAT which the Government introduced on imports at the point of entry last September. This was stated recently by Mr. Tom Nelson, President of the Farm Tractor and Machinery Trade Association, who warned that stocks of spare parts will now be severely curtailed as a result. He explained that, prior to 1 September, in regard to machinery imported they paid 18 per cent VAT only on items which they sold but now they must pay the charge at the point of entry with no guarantee of even making a sale. Some importers who have been unable to persuade custom officials that a particular part for a farm machine are being faced with a maximum VAT bill of 30 per cent. That will have to be looked at.

I want to speak about VAT on the motor trade. Most people know about the problem in the motor trade. When we talk about the motor trade and the machinery business we must think about employment. We talk about the dole queues getting longer and the efforts of the IDA and Governments generally to provide employment. Mention was made here today, I think by Senator Dowling, of the cost of providing some jobs, that it is costing perhaps £20,000 to £30,000 to provide a job. We must look at the people we have working in both the car trade and the agri-business. These businesses which have stood the test of time are in really severe trouble at the moment and must be helped. It is better to help those people and thereby to keep their staffs employed than to neglect them as we are at the moment, trying to create new employment.

The motor trade is in a most critical state. The demand for repair and servicing is at an all-time low. New car sales are down 26 per cent for the first six months of 1982 compared with the corresponding period last year. For the year as a whole it is anticipated that 30,000 fewer new cars will be sold compared with last year. In the workshop the requirement to pay VAT at 18 per cent on labour charges already inflated by high PRSI costs has made garages uncompetitive with the "nixer-foxer" operators, who are gaining more and more of the custom of the private motorist with the result that garages have been forced into widespread redundancy and short-time working. Well over 4,000 jobs have already been lost in this industry which traditionally provides training opportunities for many craft apprentices. That is a very high figure. We must appeal to the Government to do something about it.

On car sales, Government taxes and duties, now accounting for 40 to 42 per cent of the price of a new car, are placing the cost of a new car beyond the capacity of potential private purchasers. The tax burden is also deterring many companies from replacing car fleets because they can claim purchase and running expenses only in respect of the proportion which £3,500 bears to the actual cost of the car. The position will be aggravated by the substantial increase in benefit-in-kind assessment which will encourage employees to forego acceptance of new cars to avoid crippling tax payment. This reaction is already very evident. The Government argue that it is desirable that imports of new cars should be restricted because of their effect on the balance of payments. This argument ignores the volume of employment within the motor industry in Ireland. Probably no more than one-third of the price of a car represents its cost of importation. It could well be that the greater proportion of money saved by avoiding the purchase of a new car will be spent outside the country on other things — for example, foreign holidays and so on. New cars should not be treated as a once-off consumption item such as liquor and cigarettes. Cars generate a great deal of business activity and are vital to the economic and social health of the nation. The availability of new cars will dry up if a reasonably large number of cars are not replaced by new cars each year.

I refer now to the problem in the workshop. Everybody knows that getting a car repaired incurs 18 per cent VAT. The VAT on labour charges in garages must be greatly reduced. There is a precedent in the construction industry of an effective rate of 3 per cent, which if applied to garages would make charges more competitive and attract more business back from the "nixer" operators. The Exchequer would benefit substantially in a variety of ways. VAT would be paid on repair charges that previously escaped it because the repairs were effected by "nixer" operators. Greater employment would mean more revenue for the Exchequer from PAYE and PRSI than would be the corresponding reduction when the cost of unemployment assistance and benefits is taken into consideration. There would be a greater yield from corporation tax on the additional profits generated by an increase in the volume of garage workshop business. Anything would be desirable which would eliminate the need for garages to lay off mechanics to whom they pay at least £116 a week, out of which is paid an average £25 per week in PAYE and PRSI, leaving them to be supported by the State at a cost of about £100 a week.

The tax element in the price of a new car must be greatly reduced. The capital allowance available to a business must be increased to at least double the existing limit of £3,500 in order that companies will be encouraged to replace their fleets of cars on a regular basis. Benefit-in-kind assessment on the private use of company cars should be reduced to a more reasonable level in order to encourage the regular replacement of these cars.

The importance of the motor industry to the economic life of the country is reflected in its vast turnover, well in excess of £1,000 million a year and its employment level of some 26,000 persons. The industry generates about £700 million a year for the Exchequer in duties and taxes. The motor industry is in a very angry mood at present about the impact of taxes on their business. At a recent extraordinary meeting of the executive, they passed a resolution calling on the society to adopt a more militant approach to persuade the Government to lighten the tax on the industry. Something will have to be done to help out those people. On the employment side, it is sad to see so many people made redundant. The other day I bought a bulb for my car. The bulb cost £5 and VAT 90p. It was only then that the hardship caused by VAT really struck me.

There is a financial crisis in local authorities at the moment. I have been a member of a local authority for 20 odd years and in that time I have never seen things as bad as now. On Monday last, when the question of financing the services for which we are responsible came up for discussion, it was said that possibly we could not finance these because our money had run out. When complaints were made about the condition of some of our roads the reply from the engineers was that they would be worse before they were better if they did not get money. I mentioned a road myself and was not exaggerating that Red Rum would not jump some of the bumps that were on it.

The Senator has two minutes to conclude. I did not realise he was on Red Rum.

If I were, I could get over some of the bumps.

Have a tax on potholes.

I want to refer to the housing delay. The Minister maintained that we are getting as much money, but there is a rather cute game going on, and everybody in the local authorities knows it, involving departmental delay in clearing housing schemes. These are going to and fro for so long that it is one great way of saving money. We found that out for ourselves. Some people were merely content to drive through pot-holes and over bumps on the road when they were paying no tax on their cars, but the tax is back to where we started and will probably increase. We knew it was too good to last. For that reason I appeal to the Minister to take steps to give some money to the local authorities. The last time we were here we spent two days talking about a Litter Bill which necessitated the employing of wardens. I do not know how we are going to pay them. There is plenty for the wardens to do, but they will have to work for nothing.

Tourism in the Border counties is badly neglected. I talked to the chairman of the Tourist Board on this subject within the past few days and he gave me many good reasons. There are no tourists in Border counties at the moment because across the Border petrol and drink are much cheaper. It is a smuggler's paradise in Border counties as far as these things are concerned.

The Taoiseach and the Government are looking to this House to support them in the near future in the many tasks that they are going to tackle. Support will undoubtedly come from this side of the House for the Government in everything that they believe to be good for the country. Naturally, we will be taking a long, careful look at the situation before we pledge our support, in view of the things that have happened in the past few years. Judging from these, we are not satisfied that the Taoiseach or the Government can do the right things to take this country out of its present mess.

After having listened to no fewer than 48 speeches here in the last two days it is very difficult to find something that has not been said at least a half dozen times already. It must be a record for this House, to have 48 speakers on the one motion. We have gone from an all-time low to an all-time high because when we last met here speeches were very few and far between. I congratulate the Fine Gael Party on at last having broken their silence. I do not know whether Senators Murphy and Ross are to be congratulated on bringing in this motion. I hope that I am wrong, but I have a feeling that it was brought in for political reasons, for vote-catching at the next election.

Is it that soon?

However, that may not be true. Last July we had the Finance Bill and that has always been regarded as one of the most important Bills to be discussed. During my time here the Finance Bill took at least two or three days and sometimes four to discuss. This year, to my surprise, Second Stage commenced and ended on 13 July and did not even take a full day. On that day we also had an insurance Bill, a trade disputes Bill and three motions. The only speakers from across the floor then were Senators Bulbulia, O'Mahony, Daly and Brendan Ryan. We were all well aware at that time that the present problems were around the corner, yet only two Members of the Fine Gael Party and one Labour Member thought it worth their while to make contributions. Had the Finance Bill been fully discussed that day, there would have been no need for calling this House today and yesterday.

Name the Government Members who spoke.

Senator Ryan, please, without interruption.

I do not remember anybody interrupting the Senator when he spoke.

Give all the facts. Give a fair coverage. You have not given the Fianna Fáil Members who spoke.

I am giving the facts that are in the Dáil debates. Every time that this and the other House go into recess, they are not in recess a week when we hear demands for a recall. Of course, the people who make those demands do not mean it. They are just hoping, as a lot of the people across the way were hoping, that the 30 signatures would not be got and it took quite a while to get the signatures. My brief contribution here tonight deals with matters that do not concern the urban areas or the city of Dublin because the wording of this motion seems to have a definite urban bias. The farm sector which still directly employs 20 per cent of the population — not to mention all the people who depend on a healthy Irish agriculture for their livelihoods — is coming out of a severe slump. Nobody thought it worthwhile to recall the Seanad this time last year, or in previous years, when cattle prices were at an all-time low. While very serious problems are still facing the farming population, some credit should be given to the rescue operation first mounted by the Minister, Deputy Mac-Sharry, in August 1980 which achieved the basic turn around, and carried on by his successor, Deputy Lenihan. I do not know whether Senators recall the succession of farm packages and the good prices achieved in Brussels by Fianna Fáil Ministers for Agriculture in 1981 and 1982. A major effort to halt the slump was mounted as a result of which farm incomes were stabilised in 1981 and are showing some sign of improvement in 1982. The situation in 1981 would have been better but for the budgetary policies pursued by the Coalition.

Speaking of the Coalition, I heard Senator Bolger say today that, when they took office in July 1981, there was no money to pay the salaries of the Garda, Army and other people. I wonder where did all that money come from within a few months? We have not heard anything about there being no money to pay those people since the Coalition left office. Perhaps they could tell us where the money came from. Their emphasis on indirect taxation which took inflation to an all-time high of 23½ per cent, surpassed only in 1975 — and Fianna Fáil were not in office in 1975 — made it very difficult for farmers' incomes to match price increases. The strident calls for devaluation of the pound by farm organisations over the past year shows just how damaging that level of inflation was. I am glad that the Government have taken firm measures to bring down the level of price increases. I congratulate them on figures which show that the rate of price increases was well down in the last quarter. Since taking office the Government have striven hard to ease the effects of high interest rates. This is very welcome news not only to farmers but to business people and young people who had to take out mortgages.

At a time of severely limited resources, the Government have concentrated on two key areas in agriculture. They have made arrangements to help severely indebted farmers, and it is hoped that the better conditions prevailing this year, as well as subsidised interest rates, have helped to ease the situation. It is right that the State should help these people because, in some cases, it may have been the advice given to farmers in good times which got them into difficulties. The other measures have been aids to restocking, which are clearly in the overall national interest. I hope we will see an early end to the sniping between farming organisations and trade unions. Both have legitimate interests and should not seek gratuitously to harm each other. Much harm has been done from time to time to the agricultural industry by wildcat strikes in our processing factories, be they creameries or meat factories, and farmers have had to put up with those. Calls for an 18 month pay freeze are as unhelpful as decisions by trade unions handling brucellosis samples to go on strike.

Most people in my part of the world believe that those in secure employment, who have had steady increases in income, in addition to their annual increment, and who can look forward to an index-linked pension of up to half their final earnings, must show some sense of responsibility for the rest of the country. It is the people and not the Government who are paying their salaries. The realities must be faced up to now. The sacrifices being asked for are neither harsh nor unacceptable. For far too long we have been coasting along. People have been demanding special compensation for moving a quarter of a mile down the road, or for handling new equipment. While many people work very hard, there are others who put in only a token effort. A much more straightforward approach with fewer luxuries will have to be adopted. Our people are capable of facing up to challenges as well as anybody, and this is what we must do. For the older ones among us this will be nothing new. Projects we all favour may have to be postponed. More initiative and self-help will be needed. If councils cannot get money from the Government for a particular service, they should try to provide it by voluntary effort or contribution.

We are one of the most fertile countries on earth and yet we have to import fruit and vegetables to the tune of over £100 million a year, allowing for the fact that some of the produce that cannot be grown here. In times gone by every farmer grew his own potatoes, cabbage and apples, and a diminishing number still do. It is very difficult to blame farmers for not growing vegetables as they used to. Farming is now intensive, whereas in the old days it was mixed farming. Today some people go in for dairying, some for beef and others for tillage. Those people have not got the time to grow vegetables.

Some of them have sad memories of growing vegetables. For example, people grew vegetables for Erin Foods in Carlow and a few years ago when a strike took place everything they had was left to rot. Farmers cannot be expected to continue growing vegetables if there is not a market for them. If our co-operative creameries and all our co-operatives were prepared to set up proper marketing facilities, we would get the vegetables we need. When there is no proper marketing system or no guarantee that the crop will be purchased when it is grown, how can farmers be expected to grow this produce? There is much unused land in and around towns as well as on farms which could be put to use, if people only made the effort. Gardening is just as good an exercise as jogging and a lot more productive. I should like to see more encouragement given to help the ordinary family grow their own fruit and vegetables.

The other subject I should like to mention is the importance of maintaining moral values at a time when there is uncertainty and confusion and when young people are looking for leadership. Senator Belton spoke today about the differences he thinks are in Fianna Fáil. People in glasshouses should not throw stones. I am sure if he had a look at his own party he would find there are as many differences there, and far more, than there are in our party. The total confusion in the Fine Gael and Labour parties about the proposed pro-life amendent is a case in point. One Deputy says the party are totally anti-abortion and for the amendment and another says they are for a pluralist society and are against the amendment. The cynic would be inclined to say that they are trying to be all things to all people. That kind of politics is no good any more. Since certain parties have tried to make divisions only on the basis of personalities, honesty and consistency seem to have gone out of the window.

The last Government made a lot of highly inequitable cutbacks, for example, the raising of the school entry age. They proposed the taxation of short-term social welfare benefits and were responsible for the PRSI increases which have now been dropped. There is no reason to believe they would behave any differently if they were given another chance. No one is impressed by the performance of parties who having increased stringency in Government, blame the present Government for lack of action then attacking them for the actions they have now taken.

Finally, I look forward to the publication of the economic plan and to the four-year plan for agriculture to show us the way out of our present difficulties. I believe the country will respond to leadership.

I will detain the House only a very short time. Senator Eoin Ryan, the Leader of the House, when speaking on this debate, said he felt there were some politically frivolous motives in the mind of the proposer. I am sure the House will agree that this has been a very constructive, helpful and valuable debate. There was no sense of political frivolity in anything that anybody said at any stage.

I should like to welcome the Taoiseach's speech today. It was a recognition of the problem. He spelled out to us, for the first time maybe, how bad things are. It was an honest speech and if we get action as a result of that speech I will be satisfied. That was a direct declaration of intent by the Government and now we await the national plan.

What this debate may have achieved more than anything else is that we have injected a sense of urgency into all the political parties and into the people. People realise, because of this debate, what a chaotic state the economy is in and what dreadful social problems we have. If the people believe that there is something wrong and they will have to take a drop in the standard of living, then we are moving in the right direction. I think also it may have done this House some good to have been recalled because it has put the Seanad back on the map. We have begun the hard road back and it is going to be a very hard road in the next three years.

Finally, the whole spirit of this debate was a non-party one. The Independents were very keen that this should not divide on party line. That has not happened all the time but the whole point of it was that there should not be adversary politics involved. The situation was too serious for adversary politics. I am very keen as a result of that to avoid a vote at the end of this debate along party political lines. We did not want a vote on political lines as Independents and we do not want a vote on political lines because we should be above voting on party political lines. The situation is too serious for that: I am asking that the motion now be withdrawn because I gather that otherwise there will be a vote and that it will be on party political lines. In order to avoid that I am asking for premission to withdraw the motion.

On a point of order, Senator Ross asked for the withdrawal of the motion. As a proposer of the motion, with the signatures of the other 29 Senators, is he entitled to do that?

Is leave given to withdraw the motion?

Senators

No.

It is as well for Senator Ross to realise that in proposing the motion to the House yesterday he started a procedure that he is now part of. It is not just a question of dividing the House on political lines. Either a vote will be taken or the Government side of the House will accept that it has been a constructive debate. The motion asks for specific action to be taken along the lines set out which are not political lines but along the lines of what the economy needs. We have all expressed our views on this side of the House as to what action should be taken. If the Government are to accept that situation we would be pleased to facilitate them in not having a vote as such. The motion, as far as I am concerned, stands. Otherwise the validity of having had a debate for two days would fall. It is unreasonable to expect that Senator Ross should propose a motion for a two-day debate and then withdraw it. That would destroy whatever good may have been done by this debate and what we are asking for in the motion would not be unacceptable to the Government side of th House. Perhaps the Leader of the House might indicate his party's willingness to support the motion in principle and not call a vote.

We cannot accept the motion. I agree that we have had a good debate. Despite my doubts at the beginning as to whether it was worth while, I believe it has been a useful debate. I would prefer that the motion would not be put to a vote but because of the wording of it we have no option but to oppose it.

The Seanad was recalled at the behest of 30 Members. It has, during two long days, discussed this motion and the view of my group is that an opportunity should be given to the proposer and the seconder and all who appended their names to the motion to vote for that motion.

There is more to this motion than party politics. Since I am not affiliated to any group I should like to make it clear that I put my name to a motion after some consideration and I have no hesitation about pointing out to any Government anything that is wrong. I would object to any debate that would be directed exclusively at blaming the Government for everything that is wrong with the economy. I have no doubt about my views. They are contained in the words of the motion which the Government side find objectionable. I would not be agreeable to having the motion withdrawn.

Question put: "That leave be given to withdraw the motion".
The Seanad divided: Tá, 26; Níl, 21.

  • Brennan, Paudge.
  • Conway, Seán.
  • Cranitch, Mícheál.
  • de Brún, Séamus.
  • Fallon, Seán.
  • Farrell, William.
  • Fitzgerald, Tom
  • Hanafin, Des.
  • Hannon, Camilla.
  • Herbert, Tony.
  • Hussey, Thomas.
  • Kenneally, William.
  • Killilea, Mark.
  • Lanigan, Mick.
  • McGlinchey, Bernard.
  • Mallon, Séamus.
  • Mullooly, Brian.
  • Nolan, Matthew J.
  • O'Keeffe, Edmond.
  • O'Rourke, Mary.
  • O'Toole, Martin J.
  • Ross, Shane P.N.
  • Ryan, Eoin.
  • Ryan, William.
  • Smith, Michael.
  • Wright, Thomas A.

Níl

  • Barnes, Monica.
  • Belton, Luke.
  • Bolger, Deirdre.
  • Bulbulia, Katharine.
  • Conway, Timmy.
  • Dooge, James C.I.
  • Dowling, Dick.
  • Durkan, Bernard J.
  • Ferris, Michael.
  • Harte, John.
  • Hourigan, Richard V.
  • Howard, Michael.
  • Lennon, Joseph.
  • Loughrey, Joachim A.
  • McDonald, Charlie.
  • Mannion, John M.
  • O'Connell, Maurice.
  • O'Mahony, Flor.
  • Reynolds, Pat Joe.
  • Robinson, Mary T.W.
  • Ryan, Brendan.
Tellers: Tá, Senators Ross and W. Ryan; Níl, Senators Belton and Harte.
Question declared carried.
Motion, by leave, withdrawn.

What a farce.

The business before the House is concluded. The Seanad stands adjourned sine die.

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