It is proposed to take Nos. 1 and 2. I indicated last week that the Minister for Justice has difficulty with regard to No. 2 because of a meeting of the Council of Europe. The Minister has agreed to be with us all day today because he will not be available tomorrow. Therefore, I express the hope that the Second Stage might be finished today. In order to facilitate this, I suggest that we do not take the customary break from 6 p.m. to 7 p.m. Senators have expressed a wish for a separate Committee Stage on the Eighth Amendment of the Constitution Bill. This could be taken next week.
Order of Business.
I suggest that we sit today until 8.30 p.m. and deal with the Second Stage as far as possible. If there is to be a separate Committee Stage, I suggest that we sit tomorrow to deal with it. We have had many comments from inside and outside this House on the fact that we do not sit as often as people think we should. We have had headlines in the newspapers to the effect that we are earning up to £750 a day. This is a terrible reflection on Members of this House. It has been said, I presume to other Members of this House, that we are a drag on society in the sense that we are costing the State that amount of money. No matter what we say here certain people have now got that figure into their heads. That is a shame.
That type of criticism will continue to be levelled against us unless we are seen to sit. We have not had very much to do in this House since the beginning of this session. In the past there has been criticism by the Opposition of the Government that business was not being ordered properly and that enough business was not being brought into this House. I suggest that if the Government have not got anything in terms of legislation coming forward they should start to initiate legislation in this House as has been done in previous Seanads. This referendum should be put to the people as soon as possible following a proper debate on the amendment. To do this we should sit tomorrow and, if we cannot get through the business tomorrow, I suggest we should sit again on Thursday and remain sitting until such time as we get the business of the House ordered as we would like to have it ordered.
Is it proposed to take any motions this week?
I want to be sure that there is not a curtailment of the debate. Members of my party have put their names to this amendment to the amendment. There are still four speakers who want to contribute, as they have intimated to us, and they have spaced themselves to give everybody an opportunity to speak. The Leader of the House said it was not his intention to have a guillotine at any stage in the debate. The debate in this House was the best debate on this very important subject. I would be worried that we might agree in this type of discussion to curtail it and end the Second Reading tonight.
In accordance with the rules of debate in this House, I want to ensure that members of my party who wish to speak can do so. Other than that I subscribe to the sentiments expressed by the Leader of the Opposition about the use of this House to the fullest possible extent. The Leader of the House and I have been in constant consultation about this, and it is our intention to make the fullest use of this House to initiate legislation, to take motions, and to deal with legislation from the other House. So let us work together to make proper and full use of the House and we will see how the debate goes during the day. That is as far as I should like to commit our group at this point.
I am in agreement with Senator Ferris in what he has just said about letting it go for today and seeing how the debate goes and making sure everyone gets a chance to speak. Senator Lanigan is mixing up two things. What he said about the need to initiate legislation in this House and the need to use this House to the full is an excellent suggestion and one with which we should all agree. That is not the same as saying we must rush something through this House because ignorant comments in the media suggest that we are being overpaid for what we are doing. This House has a function under the Constitution to give second consideration to Bills, and it is our duty to carry out this function to the full. We should not be rushed into giving things over-hasty consideration simply because somebody says in the press that we are holding things up.
Both the Senators——
You may not speak twice.
On a point of order, I did not at any stage suggest that we should rush things through. I suggested that we should continue until 8.30 p.m., and sit tomorrow and on Thursday.
That is not a point of order.
I want to add that it would be premature, unwise and to me unacceptable, for this House to discuss the possibility of having a Committee Stage. The Leader of this House actually mentioned the possibility of a Committee Stage on this Bill. I am still optimistic about the motion put forward by the Labour Senators which received considerable endorsement from Independent contributors. I think it will receive further endorsement today when put to the vote. This will dispose of the necessity for a Committee Stage in this House.
I am quite happy about and fully support the idea that this House should take as long as is thought to be desirable to discuss the Second Stage of this Bill. The Bill has not taken up much parliamentary time either in the other House or in this House, and any impression that it is taking up much time is false. We are dealing with it very expeditiously as it has come to us from the other House. We should take all the time we want to discuss the issues involved. It is possibly the most serious and grave and potentially backward-looking issue which has come before this House in my experience as a Senator. Therefore, I would hope that a great deal of thought will be given to the Second Reading. I hope when the motion is put on Second Stage that it will be defeated and that we will not have to fix a date for Committee Stage. I would ask that this not even be considered on the Order of Business today since it is not a matter that arises before us, and may not arise at all.
We still have five or six speakers on this side of the House. Perhaps we did not give the impression last week that we are as organised as we are. If the Government thought we would all be in Donegal tomorrow, and that the Minister could afford to be away and not come into the House, I can tell the Minister now that we have Donegal already sewn up and we will be here tomorrow and Thursday. I support the suggestion that we should sit again tomorrow, Thursday and Friday. We are not needed in Donegal.
I agree with Senator Lanigan. Senator McGuinness took the wrong meaning from what he said. He stated categorically that it is time this House got down to business and did its business in an orderly fashion. We should not be pushed to go here or there at any hour of the day or night. This is a House of Parliament and should have its rules and we should abide by those rules. I agree that we should sit tonight until 8.30 p.m., and tomorrow morning we should start again in the normal way and continue discussing the amendment, if that is the Order of Business. Senator Robinson is the eternal optimist. She always has been in this House. If she thinks she will win the vote on this amendment she is pushing her luck too far. However, that is her opinion and I will not take from it in any way. We will be counting the votes in time.
When will the Leader of the House give due consideration to taking item No. 14 on the Order Paper? I ask that because of the severe problems and the grave situation in the town of Tuam and the district around Tuam and north Galway arising from a deliberate change of policy by the Government. An instruction was sent to the Tuam company: viability at all costs and to hell with the people. That is a serious situation.
Please, Senator. You cannot discuss the motion.
This is very important. I know the Leader of the House is a very fine person who understands and comprehends exactly what I am trying to say.
I know exactly what the Senator is doing.
I am sure he gets tremendous support from Senator Ulick Burke in the back benches. I hope we can take this motion tomorrow if at all possible because it is of vital importance.
I facilitated you on this matter on the Adjournment not too long ago.
I want to impress on the House the importance of taking this motion.
In view of the total confusion in the agricultural sector at present because of the suspension by the Government of all applications for grants under the farm modernisation scheme, the inclusion of all farmers in the tax net, and the failure of the Council of Ministers to agree on prices with the resultant loss of millions of pounds to Irish agriculture, could the Leader of the House tell me when motion No. 13 might be taken? I should also like to support my colleague, Senator Killilea, on motion No. 14.
I should like to get advice also on item No. 17, the motion we have tabled concerning rates on GAA grounds and community parks which are a terrible burden on these voluntary organisations who are providing amenities for their communities. I should like to be advised on when it is likely that we will take item No. 17.
I am sorry the Leader of our party had to criticise a Member of the House in his absence today — but there is nothing we can do about that — for statements made about the salaries Senators receive. A number of Bills are being prepared at the moment by the Government, including one being prepared by the Department of Energy which will consolidate a number of Gas Acts. The Leader of the House might ask the Minister for Industry and Energy to introduce that Bill in this House rather than having it introduced in the Dáil. What is happening to the Bill to set up An Bord Phoist? Where is it proposed to be introduced? Will it be introduced in the Dáil or the Seanad? It is not fair that Senators from all sides of the House should have to take the stick they have taken from the public media over the past three weeks when it is not their fault that the legislation is not coming in here.
As one who is not fully au fait with all the procedures of the House I should like to ask when will motion No. 11 be taken? It reads:
That Seanad Éireann, recognising that cuts in education expenditure pose a major threat to the quality of education and have serious consequences for the future of our children and young people, calls on the Government to review all its education cutbacks because of their serious implications for the quality of the education service and in particular for those pupils who are educationally and socially disadvantaged.
We have school buses carrying three to ten pupils and charging fares. There is grave concern right across the country.
The Senator is out of order.
Can we have some idea when this motion will be taken?
I was beginning to think that the sum total of business for today would be a discussion on the Order of Business followed by the Adjournment. I would like to say the following in regard to the points raised. A number of Senators have urged that Bills which we hope are forthcoming would be introduced in the Seanad. I have been pressing that view continually and the last time I made strong representations in regard to it was yesterday. The only neglect I can plead guilty to is that I did not repeat that representation today. I am endeavouring to have Bills introduced in the Seanad.
In regard to the question of motions, first raised by Senator Killilea who asked when motion No. 14 will be taken, No. 14 will be taken in its time, after which Senator Killilea will not be able to raise it every week because it will have been disposed of.
It might be too late.
I should like to say what the position is in regard to motions. We have an agreed system in regard to motions whereby motions are taken in rotation among the groups. We have had a Fianna Fáil motion; we have had a Fine Gael motion; and, in accordance with the rotation, the next Private Members' Business should come from the Independent grouping in the House. That means we should take either the Private Members' Bill in the name of Senator Brendan Ryan or the motion in regard to divorce which is in the names of Senator Shane Ross and Senator John Robb.
In regard to whether we would take a motion this week, I discussed the question last week with Senator Ross and we were in agreement that the discussion on the constitutional referendum was confused enough without having a discussion on the question of possible legislation or a possible constitutional amendment on divorce on the same day. Accordingly I do not intend to propose the ordering of that particular motion this week. There is a further difficulty in regard to the ordering of that motion, that is, that the Government have sought agreement through the Government Chief Whip that such problems be discussed by a joint committee. No reply has yet been received from the Opposition in regard to this proposal. The position is that we will place Private Members' Business next week I hope. We will take whatever business the Independent grouping in the House wish to have taken, subject always to the availability of a Government spokesman. Then we will revert to this side of the House and take a Labour Party motion. At the moment the Labour Party have indicated that their priority is the motion on penal reform.
In regard to the question of today's business I want to confirm that I do not intend to propose at any time a shortening of the debate or the curtailing of the discussion on the Second Stage of this Bill. My only suggestion is that it would convenience the House if the Second Stage were finished this evening. Apparently the Opposition grouping feel that even if there is a chance of finishing between 8.30 p.m. and 10 p.m., they would prefer not to sit beyond 8.30 p.m. and I accept this. I suggested that perhaps we should not take our customary break. I am in the hands of the House in regard to what it wants to do about a break.
On a separate question——
Item No. 1.
On a matter of information, I want to point out to the Leader of the House and to yourself, a Chathaoirligh, I am not a very knowledgable person on structures, but it appears to me that the structure of this House is deteriorating rapidly. I look at the ceilings and the roof——
That does not arise.
Are we safe in this House? The deterioration in the ceilings of this House is fascinating.
When I mentioned 8.30 p.m. I was talking about 8.30 p.m. in relation to sitting tomorrow. It we are not sitting tomorrow, we should go on until 10 o'clock tonight.
That can be discussed informally.
This is the third day I have had to raise the question of the amplification in this House. With the exception of one or two speakers who have marvellous lungs, we can hear nothing down here. I would like to have this investigated.
The matter will be investigated.
Order of Business agreed to.