Seanad Éireann debate -
Thursday, 26 May 1983

Vol. 100 No. 12

Shannon Free Airport Development Company Limited (Amendment) Bill, 1983 [ Certified Money Bill ]: Second and Subsequent Stages.

Question proposed: "That the Bill be now read a Second Time".

Minister of State at the Department of Industry and Energy (Mr. E. Collins)

I want to thank the House for agreeing to take this Bill now. There may have been difficulty about it. It is important that the Bill should pass all Stages and be enacted before the end of the month and before the limits on the various financial headings are reached. It is the Government's wish that whatever moneys are required for the company would be provided without any delay. The purpose of the Bill is to provide for the further financing of the Shannon Free Airport Development Company Limited by increasing the limits in existing legislation and also to give statutory authority for SFADCo's small industries promotional activity in west and south-west Offaly. Specifically, the Bill provides for:—

(i) an increase from £80 million to £120 million in the aggregate of the amounts which the Minister for Finance may subscribe in taking up shares in the company;

(ii) an increase from £40 million to £60 million in the aggregate amount of grants which may be made to the company;

(iii) an increase from £22 million to £25 million in the aggregate amount of advances which may be made by the Minister for Finance to the company; and

(iv) statutory authority for SFADCo's role in the promotion of small indigenous industry in west and south-west Offaly by the amendment of sections 2 (1) and 4 (1) of the 1970 SFADCo Act.

The Bill is purely enabling in so far as it concerns the raising of SFADCo's financial limits. I am pleased to note that this Bill received such a warm welcome from all sides of the House when it was discussed in the Dáil last week. This is not surprising when one considers the success which SFADCo has achieved since its formation in 1959. It is the type of success story that other State agencies should endeavour to emulate.

As Senators are no doubt aware, SFADCo discharges a wide range of statutory functions. I regard its two most important functions as the intensive promotion of small indigenous industry on the one hand and the development of air traffic and the industrial estate at Shannon on the other.

SFADCo's role in small industry is not solely concerned with the mid-west region and west and south-west Offaly. It has the far broader and more vital national task of developing and testing concepts and systems which would lead to dramatic growth of small indigenous industry and to do so in a manner which would pioneer future national programmes. This national role is very important. It entails the devising, testing and assessment of new approaches and programmes for the intensive development of small indigenous industry in such a way as to influence the content and direction of national policy in this sector, and leads to the application throughout the country of the approaches and programmes found to be successful.

Two of these programmes which are proving to be particularly successful in this regard are the Innovation Centre and the Microelectronics Application Centre. The Innovation Centre which is a division of SFADCo and is located in the Plassey Technological Park is currently assisting over 80 projects in places as far apart as Donegal, Waterford, Dublin and in the mid-west region. This availability nationwide of the services of the centre is made possible because SFADCo, rather than duplicating Innovation Centres all over the country, uses the existing network of agencies and institutions which are available locally. The National Microelectronics Application Centre, which was established in 1980 by SFADCo in consultation with industrial firms in the mid-west region as an independent commercially oriented private company, is also assisting firms throughout the country in the very important work of redesigning existing processes and developing new ones related to the technology of the eighties and micro-chip.

The Tánaiste and the Minister for Industry and Energy will shortly be announcing details of a new guide designed to help small industries to identify and tender for Government contracts. A new booklet is being published by SFADCo in an effort to stimulate greater awareness amongst industry owners and managers of the potential for public sector business. Total Government purchases now amount to £3 billion a year. The booklet entitled "Tendering for Government Business — a Guide for Small Firms" will provide detailed information on various aspects of Government contracts tendering. The attractions and advantages of such business for small firms will be outlined. These include stable demand, secure payment and savings on direct marketing costs. The booklet will also contain information on Government contracts tendering procedures, contract conditions and guidelines on the awarding of contracts. The booklet will also list all key public sector purchasing organisations and the main purchasing areas and products within each agency. This booklet will add to the impressive list of initiatives already taken by SFADCo to aid small firms. These include a range of advisory services for small industry in the areas of finance, marketing, industrial relations, production and materials management as well as the provision of training courses specifically designed and developed for those establishing, managing and working in small firms.

When SFADCo was first given its small industry role in 1978, the total number of small firms operating in the mid-west was 300; the company had increased this number to 650 by last December. The number of people employed in small industry increased from 3,480 to 4,800 and the company expects that by the end of 1987, 7,000 will be in full-time employment in small firms in the mid-west region and in west and south-west Offaly.

When SFADCo's financial limits were last amended in 1980 its responsibility for the promotion of small indigenous industry in the mid-west was extended into west and south-west Offaly. The extension of SFADCo's mandate into Offaly was effected by way of an administrative arrangement whereby SFADCo operated as consultants to the IDA in the area. This arrangement to date has worked very satisfactorily. However I consider that, consistent with the procedure of accountability to the Oireachtas and, given the temporary nature of the Offaly assignment, the amendment of SFADCo's financial limits should be availed of to put SFADCo's role in Offaly on a proper statutory footing. The work already begun by SFADCo, particularly in the development of client and local community relations, requires a number of years before it can produce lasting and worthwhile results. Therefore, I would envisage SFADCo continuing to have statutory responsibility for small industries in this area in the foreseeable future. SFADCo has been operating in Offaly for two years now, and in that time, a total of 25 projects with a job potential of 250 has been approved.

In the case of the mid-west region, SFADCo acts under statutory delegated authority from the IDA. Delegated authority will now also apply in respect of west and south west Offaly.

On the Shannon Industrial Estate total employment at 31 December 1982 was 4,300 which was slightly down, 6 per cent, on the 1981 level. It is worth noting that this was the only year since 1975 in which a net growth of jobs has not been achieved. SFADCo is confident that a return to job growth will be achieved in 1983 and is re-allocating its resources to meet this challenge head on. Despite the decline in employment on the estate last year, SFADCo approved facilities for expansions in 16 existing industries at Shannon in 1982 which plan to create 430 new jobs at full production. 1982 was the first year which the 10 per cent rate of tax for new service companies locating on the estate was promoted and, while competition from abroad to attract these international service industry projects is intense, SFADCo is confident that the marketing efforts in the US and Europe, which were intensively carried out in 1982 will result in the programme making a significant contribution to the industrial estate job numbers in 1983.

It was mentioned in the Dáil that a study to chart the future of the industrial estate over the next 20 years was being undertaken by the company. The findings of this study will determine the kind of industry that Shannon will endeavour to attract over this period and the promotional strategies which the company will need to use. It is expected that the new strategies will be implemented in early 1984.

Moneys are provided to SFADCo for the following purposes: First, there is share capital which is used by the company for capital expenditure on the industrial estate at Shannon, in other locations throughout the mid-west region and west and south-west Offaly. The main headings of expenditure are land acquisition, factory construction and main infrastructural works in Shannon town. A small proportion of share capital is also expended on aviation-related tourism projects of a capital nature.

Secondly, there are grant-in-aid moneys which are used to meet the company's running expenses and to provide financial aid to industries on the Shannon Industrial Estate. Part of the company's running expenses relates to the development of traffic through the airport. Expenditure for this purpose is met by a special grant-in-aid for which the Minister for Trade, Commerce and Tourism is accountable but which comes within the overall limits being amended by this Bill.

The third item is repayable advances which are used to finance expenditure on the provision of houses and related services for Shannon town. The main headings of expenditure are land acquisition, construction of houses, community buildings and the provision of house loans under the company's tenant purchase scheme. Repayable advances, together with interest charges, are repaid at six-monthly intervals to the Exchequer by way of annuity.

Expenditure by the company under the headings of share capital, grant-in-aid and repayable advances to 30 April 1983 are as follows: share capital — £77.3 million; Grant-in-aid — £38.5 million; repayable advances — £19.1 million. The existing limits for share capital and grants will be reached shortly. It is, therefore, necessary that these statutory limits be now increased to enable the company to continue its operations. The limit of repayable advances will be reached during 1984. On the basis of estimates of expenditure available, the proposed new limits will be sufficient until 1987.

Finally, I am pleased to say that air traffic through Shannon Airport showed a substantial growth in 1982 over 1981 with an overall increase of 11 per cent and a throughput of over 1 million passengers. This significant growth was due principally to an increase of 25 per cent in transit passengers. Terminal traffic on the North Atlantic route, which accounts for half of all terminal traffic — 590,000 passengers in 1982 — increased by 10 per cent last year. The 1982 total level of 20,000 tonnes of airfreight, most if it industrial, represents an increase of 10 per cent over 1981, and a cumulative increase of 80 per cent over the ten years to 1982. The company is continuing its work on the development and implementation of new tourism projects which will assist in generating traffic through the airport and consolidate Shannon as the country's North Atlantic gateway.

I commend this Bill to the House.

Mrs. Honan

I welcome the Minister to the House and sincerely wish him well in a most important post at a very crucial time for this country. I must explain to the House why I annoyed Senator O'Leary yesterday when I asked why this Bill was not being taken. He said the Government had decided we were not taking it. The reason I continued to press this matter during the afternoon and evening was the cost to the airport and to development at Shannon if we did not deal with the matter now. I cannot put a figure on the cost but the Minister is aware of it.

I warmly welcome this Bill. Any finance to Shannon Free Airport or to any part of the region is to be welcomed. The airport has played an important role in the development of the neighbouring counties. I am in a position to speak on this matter because — I must be careful here because I was elected in the Twenty-six counties — Derry and I have served Shannon for over 30 years. This is something I feel strongly about and I welcome any finance given to SFADCo.

The staff from top to bottom are well directed, have initiative and enthusiasm and are effective. We find it easy to criticise but we do not often enough pay compliments to people who succeed in the areas in which they are serving, whether they are senior officials or the general work force.

We must now get value for the money we pour into State organisations. We are in a developed world and will have to be constantly moving up the scale in technology, in design, in quality and in value for money or else we will just not make sales. The personnel in the factories in Shannon are more than aware of this. It is essential that our goods be of first-class quality.

We made dreadful mistakes in the past — I say this about my own Government as well as the Minister's Government — by giving grants to fly-by-night operators. Governments and politicians may pay the price in criticism but the greatest price of all is paid by the worker on the factory floor. We are now taking a closer look at this and we are making fewer mistakes in these grant-aided factories. I have always had a strong feeling about small industry. At one time we were heading for the bigger unit but now we have found that the smaller unit is the best for us. In the small industry you have less trouble, the owner is nearer to the worker and there are less staff upsets. I have seen family units being a great success and they do not get the publicity that they deserve. We seem to be talking about big impersonal operations all the time.

I am going to make reference here to a specific factory because I know how it runs. I know its success and its commitment to the workers. If anything goes wrong the owners have to stick with it and cannot walk out. I am a very strong advocate of more of that kind of factory. It was sad that at one time it was considered that an Irish person did not have the credentials to be a good industrialist and my party were as much to blame as anyone else. I want to make reference here to a factory which the Minister knows. I am not going to name it. The factory is run by the two brothers and the younger brother drives a Mercedes out of the gate of that factory at six o'clock in the morning on his way to Dublin to go out into Europe because he heads the sales side of the business. He may be criticised because he drives the Mercedes. That is rather sad. I think the attitude of the begrudger is something not to be condoned. I say this sincerely because I know the hard work and the long hours that those two brothers have put in to make that factory the success it is today. They have a good track record. They have a workforce of 300 and they just cannot walk away if there is a problem. They just have to get in and solve it. Except for one upset in a long number of years there has been a marvellous relationship between worker and owner. This attitude probably exists in Shannon also. The owners of the business I mentioned do not adopt a boss attitude all the time to the people on the factory floor. This is a very important thing and perhaps we should have spoken about it more often in the past. I will not have to mention it again to the Minister because I think the attitude of Irish management has changed course.

The Minister gave figures of imports and exports. I do not think that the factories in the industrial estate use the airport enough in the transport of the goods which are made and produced on the industrial estate. Perhaps the Minister will be able to explain this to me. There may be cost factors involved; there may be easier, cheaper transport and this may have directed the factory owners or the directors to decide not to use the airport. I ask the Minister here this morning to take a closer look at the cost of transport of products out of the factories. If that could be reduced perhaps the owners would use the airport to a greater extent.

I note that exports in 1981 were £153.54 million, up 16 per cent and in 1982 they were worth £165.4 million. Imports in 1981 were £62.1 million and in 1982 were £71.8 million. Again I am asking for more use of the airport. The Minister referred to the role SFADCo played in traffic promotion. I agree with everything said in the other House in praise of Shannon and SFADCo. One would have to live in the area to appreciate the disastrous effects on the region if anything happened to Shannon. Let the critics have their criticism. You have to live near it and know that if anything happened to Shannon what it would mean. There is a great commitment and dedication of workers from the top to the bottom. The Minister should ask SFADCo to do a new promotion drive to get more traffic through the airport. I recall that this was done with a very forceful team in the sixties. Perhaps it is going on now but I am not aware that hard promotion is being done by SFADCo to promote more traffic through Shannon. I am sure the Minister understands what I am trying to say. It is important. Figures have to be kept up and we do not want any false figures, which we never had from Shannon anyway.

I will refer to customs clearance. I again appeal to the Minister to do all in his power to re-open this if all the talk has stopped. I understand that Americans are less interested now than they were when we were in Government. It would mean an enormous amount of money to the region. I ask the Minister to take another look at this for me.

I have already talked about the 9,900 people in the airport. The credit I have given them was given by my husband before me. I am not just saying it to plamás anyone. If I felt otherwise I would also give them the stick. I must give credit to Clare County Council for the role they played because it is rarely seen anywhere. It is a very significant role. They have just recently finished 78 houses. Housing is mentioned in the Bill by the Minister. There are 42 more houses now gone out to tender. One of the most magnificent fire stations in the country was put up by Clare County Council.

The new library is a total Clare County Council project. It has one of the finest collections of books for children and adults. Indeed — I am not being political here — it is most appropriately called after Seán Lemass. That was a very good choice and all parties in the region would agree with me. Clare County Council are totally responsible for refuse collection and for the maintenance of all the roads. Indeed, the county council have complete responsibility for environmental control of all Shannon under the Water Pollution Act, 1977. This should be put on the record of the House because we do not often enough pay tribute to the people who play a very important role in a specific area. That is only a small number of the things that come to my mind about the role of dare County Council in Shannon. I rarely see it noted in print. Some reference could have been made to it in some report. I am making it now.

There are figures in the Minister's speech about small industry programmes and Laois, Limerick city and county, Offaly, South and North Tipperary are mentioned. Did Clare get the 474 jobs that were in this report? Have County Limerick got the 240 jobs in this report? Have Limerick city got the 14 jobs in this report? Have North Tipperary this morning got the 101 jobs committed in this report? Have Offaly this morning got the 123 jobs in this report? Perhaps I am not too good at English. Those are the figures given. Are those jobs filled this morning?

An Cathaoirleach

What report is the Senator talking about?

Mrs. Honan

It is the 1981 annual report of Shannon Development. You confused me there for a minute. I thought I was making myself quite clear. That will not deter me. I will keep going. I would like at this point, while we are talking about factories — I am not going to become political and I think the Minister will appreciate this — to ask if there is any chance at all of Interton in Ennis being given any help. It is closed. I wonder if SFADCo could do anything at all to help us out there. There were 43 male, 76 female, 119, put out the door a fortnight ago. Interstretch have also gone with 40 more jobs lost. I ask the Minister to take a look at that. Perhaps SFADCo could help us out.

Is there no report from the Joint Committee on State-Sponsored Bodies? The latest one I got on Aer Lingus Teoranta and Aer Rianta Teoranta was 16 December 1980. Is that the latest report of this committee? On page 67 of that report regarding the North Atlantic problem, they say they have noted at a number of points the extremely competitive situation on the North Atlantic routes that has existed for several years now and that it is a major factor in the poor financial results of Aer Rianta Éireann Teoranta. On page 69 the question naturally arises as to what steps Aer Lingus can take to limit losses on the North Atlantic or whether it might even be better to abandon these routes altogether. I will keep coming back to that all the time. It is frightening even to see that in a report of 1980.

It is still in somebody's mind to overfly Shannon. One aspect of the North Atlantic cost, which is a specific disadvantage for Aer Lingus, is the compulsory double stop in Ireland. Aer Lingus indicate that a saving in the order of £700,000 a year might be made if a single stop is made. Of course the stop is to be Dublin. Perhaps there is an up-to-date report. Perhaps they have changed their mind because I am talking about a report of the Joint Committee on State-Sponsored Bodies of 18 December 1980. While traffic through Dublin Airport presently amounts to 2,800,000 per year as against 1,000,000 for Shannon when I look at the US traffic to Ireland a much different picture emerges. Over 60 per cent of all the traffic between Ireland and North America either embarked or disembarks at Shannon. We had an Air Companies Amendment Bill in the House some time before 29 April with the Minister for Transport present. I asked him to communicate with me because we differed on the figures for landings at the two airports at the time. He wrote to me on 29 April and stated that he was right that the carryings by US airlines are brought into the reckoning and the ratio in favour of Shannon is 65:35. He still insisted that the ratio in relation to Aer Lingus flights serving both points is now 50-50.

The scheduled carriers involved are Aer Lingus, Trans America and North West Orient. The Aer Lingus traffic alone is split about 50-50 between Dublin and Shannon. We are all pontificating and talking about decentralisation. Here is the Government's greatest chance to decentralise and bring the whole unit of Aer Lingus and the North Atlantic activities down, base them in Shannon and feed them with smaller planes to Dublin. When the 60 to 65 per cent have got off at Shannon a small plane would take the remainder to Dublin. Let us be sensible about it and stop talking about decentralisation, building massive units of office blocks and moving people who do not want to move. Let us just turn the planes around and base this operation once and for all at Shannon.

Aer Lingus staffing is very Dublin orientated with about 6,000 people working in the capital for Aer Lingus and its auxiliary activities and only 300 in Shannon. Aer Lingus talk a lot about the loss on the North American route because of the service all the year round. This is unfair because it seems to be changing and there is very little comment about it. Each winter the number of flights drops. They had six flights per week in the winter of 1980, five flights in 1981-1982 and last winter they had only four flights.

An Cathaoirleach

There is a division on in the other House so the Minister will be going. If the Senator wishes she can continue or we can adjourn for 10 or 15 minutes.

Sitting suspended at 11.10 a.m. and resumed at 11.20 a.m.

Mrs. Honan

There is some problem about curtailment of charter flights to Shannon which irritates some of the airlines when operating to Ireland, for example, Global and Capital Airlines. It is making it difficult for Shannon management to encourage these and other airlines to use Shannon even as a refuelling stop between Rome and Athens on to New York. I ask the Minister to look at that. Business and Finance of 5 May 1983 stated that scheduled flights were up from 222,018 in 1977 to 429,445 in 1982 and charter flights down from 224,543 in 1977 to 55,000 a reduction of 75 per cent. At times all major carriers using 747 planes average between 10 to 15 hours utilisation per day. Are we using the right planes? Is this the cause of the loss rather than Shannon Airport? I might be putting too much emphasis on the upper part of the airport but Shannon is a unit. I am not too pushed about who has to deal with the comments I am making about maintaining Shannon. SFADCo, who are such experts at other things, might pay more attention to the upper part of the airport with its excellent personnel. Perhaps the Minister would take a look at the 747 aircraft and see if we should have smaller aircraft as well.

I was not aware that the AGM took place yesterday. It took the wind out of my sails a bit when I heard on the 7.30 news this morning that all the figures of profit were out before I had made my speech. Perhaps Senator O'Leary knew it was coming and he decided to let the radio have it before his colleague in the Seanad had it. Even though it is old news now I am still going to refer to it. It is encouraging to have good news because there is nothing but bad news these days. If some people are prepared to throw in the sponge, give up and say, "We are finished as a county, we are finished as a region, we are finished as a nation", there are enough of us here to say: "No way. Let us take the rough with the smooth and maybe it is a little bit rough at the moment but good days will come again". These good days may even come, amazingly enough, under a Coalition Government. Despite the recession Shannon was back in profit in 1982 and they have had a huge increase in profit, from £19 million to £33 million. That is all old news now but I am anxious to put it on the record of the House. I intended doing that yesterday before the AGM took place.

I have already made reference to the people who have made Shannon and those who have stayed and lived there. In the early days of the airport — this applies very much to the people working in the factories — I know how hard it was to go into a blank unit of houses that had no community atmosphere, churches or schools. Those pioneering people deserve enormous credit for having encouraged other people to follow them to set up home in Shannon and making the town what it is today. I must pay tribute to the workers and to the middle grade people. I do not wish to distinguish between grades, but I must comment on the top personnel who decided to go to live in other organised towns. For that reason there is great credit due to the people who stayed and helped to make Shannon the happy town it is today. Another good improvement has taken place in recent times. It is the decision to appoint town commissioners for Shannon and that body has proved very successful in all fields. Nobody knows better than the Cathaoirleach all the fields of local government, for example, in health and housing. Of course, it could not but be a good body because Fianna Fáil have a majority on the commission. For that reason it has to be right.

I should like to make a plea to the Minister, through the Cathaoirleach, to ask SFADCo to make a more vigorous drive to sell Shannon again to get more traffic. I am specifically asking the Minister to ask SFADCo to do this because anything they have undertaken has been successful. I am glad Minister of State Collins, another Munster man, is putting this Bill through both Houses. He should ask his Department to spread the activities of SFADCo further into other counties. I strongly welcome the Bill. I thank the Minister, and his staff, for this tremendous amount of money for Shannon. I will do anything I can, leaving politics aside, for the good of Shannon and that region and other further constituencies that may be included under the administration of SFADCo.

Mr. O'Leary

Repeated reference has been made by Senator Honan to what happened yesterday. Examination of the record of yesterday will show that the Order of Business had been completed when I was asked about the SFADCo business. The attempt to raise it as an additional matter on the Order of Business was not, in my opinion, in order. That was why I responded as I did. There is one aspect I should like to mention. I do not think it is necessary that Members of this House, on either side, should be lobbied by people who represent SFADCo to ensure the speedy passage of this Bill. It is not wrong but it is not necessary. To do so is an implied criticism of the Department, of the Minister and of the manner in which the Minister is putting the Bills necessary to preserve the situation through the House. I do not think it is necessary for an official of a semi-State body to lobby Members of this House. I have total confidence that the Minister will, as appropriate, consult with the Leader of this House from time to time, and with all sides of this House, to ensure the speedy passage of legislation that is necessary to ensure the continued successful venture which goes under the general title of the Shannon Free Airport Development Company.

I welcome the Bill and I welcome the Minister to the House. I assure him that he has come with a Bill that will receive a very warm welcome from this side of the House. It will receive a warm welcome because it deals with a company whose success story has been well documented in previous discussions here and in earlier parts of this debate. For that reason the subject under discussion is welcome. It is also welcome that the Bill seeks to increase moderately the amount of money available for disbursement to the Shannon Free Airport Development Company under three headings as outlined by the Minister. It does so in a sensible and sufficiently moderate fashion to ensure that there will be regular reviews of the performance of the company, which there should be, to ensure that its present and past success rate will be maintained. Constant public scrutiny is one of the ways of ensuring that comes about.

The increase in the share capital from £80 million to £120 million is welcome. It is important that the money which is being provided for the establishment of items of a capital nature should be done by the subscription to the company by the Minister of a certain amount of share capital. This increase is, therefore, to be welcomed. The increase in the grant-in-aid is also welcome because the Shannon Free Airport Development Company has a number of quite separate and distinct though related activities, and the one in relation to the development of the airport and the surrounding infrastructure has been well documented by Senator Honan in her speech, one which we share in its entirety.

The advances to the company by the Minister for Finance are also to be increased. This is very important. The infrastructural development of the area is an important by-product of the activities of the Shannon Free Airport Development Company. One need only travel in the area generally under its control, particularly around Shannon Airport, to realise that a lot of that money has been well spent. It has provided an infrastructure which is valuable. Under this heading it is to be noted that this money is repayable. That is also welcome. Repayable advances show that at least portion of the development within the area is being funded by people by their own efforts and that they are willing to make repayments for the provision of houses and related services which are an essential part of Shannon town.

There is a problem with regard to the extension of the area under SFADCo. SFADCo has been so successful because it concentrated on a particular area. I would not like to see that diluted too much by expanding it to too many areas. Its success has been that it has been given a job and the people involved in it are able to do that job in a single-minded fashion. Therefore, while it is tempting to say we should expand it to this or that area, I do not think that is really the best long-term strategy. I have no objection whatsoever to the expansion into the southern and western part of Offaly because that is a real fact. There is no point in going back there, but I am talking about new additional areas. I do not think it is in the best interest of SFADCo that that should happen. If it is necessary other development companies should be established for other areas rather than try to dilute the effort of the SFADCo people into too large an area. One of the things we are inclined to do if somebody is successful in a particular area — we are inclined to do it in business, in politics and everywhere — is to load that person, or that group of people, with so much work that eventually they are not even successful in their original objective. We should be very restricted in what we give to SFADCo and they will do that job properly.

The Minister made a reference to the publication of a report and document which deal with helping people to tender tor Government business. That is an excellent idea. There is a lot of doubt in this area. Many small business people do not know how to attack this problem and the kind of information which is available in the back of the post office telephone directory is not of much use because it lists what eventually the Government will be buying, everything from a needle to an anchor, every sort of thing one could imagine. That is not of much use to the small businessman who wants to know the nuts and bolts of it. Obviously, our approval of the booklet will have to await our examination of it but the principle is excellent and I am quite sure the booklet will be excellent. Helping people especially small firms to tender for Government business has two beneficial effects. First of all, it is good for the small firms and helps them to overcome the troughs of recessions and establish a good relationship with Government agencies and Departments. Secondly, it brings Government that bit closer to the people. That is a good thing. It is something which should be welcomed and I congratulate the Minister, the Minister of State, the Department and SFADCo for this initiative. It is a very good approach towards making Government more real for the small businessman. For this reason, and for the reason that the company in general is a successful one, and that the amounts of money being sought are reasonable, this provision in the Bill will have the full support and co-operation of this side of the House for its early enactment.

Mr. Smith

I should like to welcome the Bill which provides for the further financing of Shannon Free Airport Development Company. I welcome it also because it affords the House an opportunity at a time of deep recession when the difficulty of providing job opportunities for our young population and, indeed, for those made redundant in recent years, of taking a searching look at a company which is a model regional development organisation. It behoves Members when looking at the development there over a number of years to analyse critically how our over-executive style Government have lost out because local initiative becomes frustrated in the links of control that wind their ways from outlying areas to Dublin.

There have been many discussions here, in the other House and in many other places, about how overcentralised our Government have become. Criticism has been levelled at politicians, at both Houses of the Oireachtas, on the basis of their irrelevance to problems outside. I do not want to be misunderstood or to be likened to those, like Dean Griffin, who from their lofty thrones seek opportunities to pass snide remarks about people in public life, but the kind of face to face situation which has developed in politics here requires politicians to be in touch with every minute detail in their own constituencies. That, obviously, militates against the kind of relevant Government that could be provided if we transferred, as was done in this case, men of ability, giving them discretion and the finance, such as we are providing today, to make decisions in their own areas and to pilot and pioneer developments without the day to day executive control of Government.

There are very few models of regional development to compare with the developments that have taken place in the mid-west region by SFADCo. That is not to say there are not areas in great need of further advancement and development, but it is to say that the powers which developed through SFADCo, the developments that have taken place in the educational sphere, in NIHE and other periphery areas, demonstrate how important it is to dislocate many of the centralised services which have cluttered up this city. With a third of the country's population it now has 65 per cent of our crime and traffic chaos, and the many other problems which follow allowing the decision making processes to remain in such a concentrated form in the city. A debate on a Bill such as this should, perhaps, as Senator O'Leary said, involve us in a situation, not of asking SFADCo to expand its activities in a wider geographical area but rather to concentrate more within that region. We should be asking that other powers, such as powers to local authorities, educational and agricultural committees, and other developmental organs be handed over. SFADCo should be allowed to make decisions about their own areas. Politicians should be afforded a greater opportunity in the Seanad and the Dáil to concentrate on matters which are more relevant and which will encourage the public — all of the public — to support to the fullest possible extent the democratic system we have, and have enjoyed and should long continue to fight for.

The pride that communities take in their own areas is only enhanced when they contribute fully to that development. The fact that we are directly involved in these developments means that the work is more rewarding. The community structures and people of all walks of life can see a part of themselves in their efforts and production and in the way these schemes are financed. Inevitably, developments of this kind for the future may involve schemes of local taxation and, perhaps, we should not shy away from such opportunties where we want to provide jobs at present. Those who had an opportunity of looking at "Today Tonight" last night could not but have been shocked. We have been aware for a long time of the problems of drug addiction, crime and the frustration that is enveloping our young population. Whatever the cost today in financial terms we must make the effort necessary to try to cure many of these ills before they become endemic in Irish society. We must tackle them with greater imagination and local and community drive. There are far greater possibilities for us even in this recession than we are exploring. Many of us have been caught up in discussions on equality and tax problems, all of which exist but there are more radical and necessary areas that must be looked at. Discussion on this Bill gives us an opportunity to do so.

I welcome the Minister of State. I should like to ask him, and his Department, to encourage initiatives where possible to cater for those growing problems. In the mid-west region a local industrial co-operative was established in a mountainy area which has suffered from the haemorrhage of emigration for more than a hundred years. It has been depopulated and has very poor soil. In fact, an analysis by An Foras Talúntais indicates that it is somewhere around 30 per cent as good as the best land in the country but, in the course of a couple of years, a group of young farmers assisted by Shannon Free Airport have begun to see new life and new possibilities in an area where they were remote only a few years ago. It has taken a lot of energy and dedicated enthusiastic effort but the pride it has built up in that community in such a short time with limited prospects and resources indicated to all of us how much more can be done in such areas by local initiative, and if the State encourages, through its agencies, more local involvement in the day to day running of developments it is better to have that rather than having the situation where a housing engineer travels to see if one qualifies for a local authority loan and is followed by a housing inspector from the Department of the Environment to see if one is entitled to a grant. People must use the political system to try to get grants and that takes up the time of politicians. I am not objecting to that because it is necessary if the public cannot penetrate the system.

Surely when we have systems like that we ought to think again about how we are flooding this system. Those who want to be directly involved in the developments of the kind I mentioned should have time to give local leadership. Politicians have the oportunity to study local developments and are aware of current problems. Now is the time to look at this. There are many obstacles that stand in the way of such advancements. In this recession we have mental and physical fatigue among many of our unemployed. The old system where people survived for themselves because the social welfare system was not as advanced as it is now, was in many ways healthier because people had to do certain things particularly in relation to the provision of food. That is not necessary now. I am not saying that we should change that developed social code but it has to be linked to initiative, perhaps in the provision of marginal industrial development for young people in the many factory bays that are lying idle in our own regions or elsewhere during the summer months. Manufacturing projects and marginal economic developments could become economic in a mix between the social welfare code and the AnCO training schemes. They would have the advantage of getting these people involved in doing something productive for themselves and their families. Our greatest wealth is our people but if they cannot be usefully employed in developments in their own areas there is not much hope for the future.

There have been references this week to food imports. When we hear that we import £800 million worth of food the time for talking about it should be over. I am not saying this is an easy matter to deal with. We emphasise that our strengths are in climatic conditions and disease free environments but many other changes will have to take place in the pattern of farming, in the seasonality of supply and the quality of our produce. I sympathise with farmers who feel that the solution to their problem is to pour oil on imported potatoes but it is far from a solution. We compete in an aggressive market with well presented goods that have been well washed and packaged. We compete on those lines or we do not compete at all. I should like to encourage SFADCo, the financial institutions, the banks, insurance companies and the co-operatives to get involved because this is not an isolated job. I regard this as the central issue for all of us. We all have a vested interest not in having £60 million or £80 million profit in a certain bank but in ensuring that these funds are diverted to the fullest possible extent into self-financing productive enterprises which will use the talents of our people. Profit on paper is a sad recipe for the problems that face us today. I am not interested in profit. Many people in public life, as was indicated in yesterday's newspapers, are not interested in money either in spite of what is said about us. As one who fought four elections in one year I ask any respectable authority on any ecclesiastical throne, dean or otherwise, to swap that kind of trauma. I should like to pay a tribute to the wives and families and the people who support politicians.

An Leas-Chathaoirleach

And the husbands.

Mr. Smith

Yes. They know what it is to have to look after families when others are involved in public life. There has not been any defence of them and it is a pity that has to come from people involved. I am not ashamed to make it and I avail of this opportunity to do so. I want to concentrate the mind of the House on a few of the broader questions. I hope all of us, with the opportunities we have, will try to emulate what SFADCo has been doing up to now. SFADCo should get involved much more in the food processing area.

I know that it may require fairly heavy investment in pilot centres and perhaps processing units of a very small kind in an attempt to tailor new products to the market situation. There is a very interesting development in University College, Cork, in this area. I am not asking for duplication of that but rather that we bring together these developments that have gone so far in all-out attack, not just in words, to try to use that material asset that we have to provide greater opportunity everywhere possible for SFADCo and for the Government in the climate of Clare to provide the funds and to give to the fullest possible extent to local areas, regional areas and county committees the power and the say in so far as the activities that they conduct in their organisations are concerned.

Mr. Hourigan

I welcome the Minister of State, Deputy Collins, to the House and I compliment him on this legislation which has, and should have, our full and total approval. I would like to wish Deputy Collins well in his very important and challenging portfolio.

I totally support this Bill for a number of reasons which, stated already, need restating for the purpose of emphasis. Firstly, I do not think that we can exaggerate the very fine job of work that SFADCo have done in the whole mid-west region and I welcome the decision to extend that into other fringe or peripheral areas. I feel quite strongly that SFADCo should be allowed to develop their potential to its fullest in the area that they serve at present. The mid-western region has not been developed under the aegis of SFADCo to the extent that it can be developed. We compliment SFADCo and all those under their operations, and the IDA as well for whom SFADCo act in the mid-west region, on the great job of work they have done, but in the area of small industries in particular there is a great deal of potential for development. No matter how small the development work or project might be, a sufficient number of small projects can make a massive impact on the overall scenario vis-a-vis employment and, as has been alluded to already, no problem at present is more serious for us as a nation than unemployment, which not alone brings very serious economic ills day after day but also, as has been stated and I stress again, its social implications are extremely serious. We all have a responsibility to make certain that unemployment is not allowed to continue. I do not think any sane person could oppose anything that would help to alleviate the serious cancer of unemployment.

SFADCo have done a great deal. Their potential in the immediate future in particular lies in the securing of jobs in the small industries area and I am aware that moneys are available from the EEC, provided that worthwhile ideas emanate from persons or groups of persons, to proceed with certain projects in the Shannon Free Airport Development area. It is incumbent on everybody to assist in the bringing forward of ideas of one sort or another and any idea that has viability prospects will certainly be considered extremely favourably by SFADCo. That is important. Sometimes unemployed people do not realise that even a very small project will gain not alone very sympathetic hearing from SFADCo but help of a very positive nature.

Regarding the question of decentralisation I stress again how important it is that we do not add to the number of persons in this city in proportion to the total population in our country. It is extremely important that we have decentralisation. SFADCo are one example of where decentralisation has been successful, and the same principle applies right through the country. It is not confined to the mid-west region. A number of things need to be done, under the aegis of the IDA, right through the whole country, and under the aegis of SFADCo in their own area of operation.

As Senator Smith has said, the area of food imports is one that we must tackle positively. I have stated in this House on previous occasions the absolute need for some national development agricultural authority who will take account of the whole area of food production, processing and marketing right from the beginning to the consumer stage. I do not propose to go into detail on that area now.

I welcome this legislation because it is progressive. We must all see very clearly the good work that SFADCo have been doing and examine as fully as we can what and where potential exists for SFADCo to develop in the time ahead. Other areas of the country also could benefit enormously by organisations similar to SFADCo. What has been done effectively and successfully in one place by SFADCo under the aegis of the IDA can be done very well elsewhere. We look at this situation in a local context in this legislation to a certain extent, but also we must take account of the national scene and the effect this development has on the national economy.

I welcome this Bill and will give it my full support. It deserves support from everybody. Furthermore, I urge that each and every Member in this House would devote his or her attention to the whole question of the development of small industries because small industries, be they on co-operative lines, private lines or a combination of both, provide a definite answer to our very serious unemployment position at present which I believe earnestly we cannot afford as a community to allow to continue further.

Professor Hillery

I welcome the Minister of State to the House and wish him success in his new and very onerous position. I join in the welcome for this Bill. By any standards SFADCo must be regarded as a success story among our much-criticised semi-State agencies. Against a background of severe recession, it is heartening to note that the promotion of small indigenous industry, a role assigned to SFADCo in 1978, continues to be fulfilled with remarkable success. Not alone has the overall employment level in small industry been maintained in the very difficult year of 1982 but, since 1978, 2,000 new jobs in small industry have been created and sustained in the mid-west region for which SFADCo have statutory responsibility.

Total employment at the end of 1982 on the Shannon industrial estate was 4,300. This was down by 6 per cent on 1981. However, given the recessionary conditions both nationally and internationally which adversely affected employment in the industrial estate, it is worthy of note that this was the first year since 1975 that a net growth in jobs was not achieved. Notwithstanding this fall in employment in 1982, it is worth underlining the fact that there was a volume increase in that year in terms of output from the industrial estate.

I welcome the imminent publication of a guide to small industries which the Minister mentioned in his statement and which will help small companies to be identified and tender for Government contracts. Against a bleak employment picture nationally, SFADCo are in the van of recovery efforts in 1983. The company are confident, with justification, that a return to job growth will be achieved this year. By keeping in the closest possible contact with the companies on the industrial estate, SFADCo have been allocating their resources to attract more international service industry projects to Shannon. The indications, based on company orders, are that both employment and output will be up this year on 1982 levels.

On the question of new technology, the Minister has highlighted the work of the Innovation Centre, which is a division of SFADCo, and the National Microelectronics Application Centre established by SFADCo in 1980. From time to time we hear fears expressed about the impact of new technology. The siliconchip technology is new; it is revolutionary and it is inevitable. As I see it, far from being a threat to jobs in our manufacturing industry, this new technology is essential for the re-design of existing processes and the development of new ones. This, in turn, means that our manufacturing industry will be more efficient and competitive. In other words, we need the micro-chip to sustain and create jobs in manufacturing industry.

The National Microelectronics Application Centre is playing a vital role in creating an awareness of the possibilities of the micro-chip in modernising our manufacturing industry and is following up this awareness by assisting firms not alone in the mid-west but throughout the country in re-designing existing processes and in developing new ones. The Centre is, therefore, helping in a very real way to save and increase industrial jobs that otherwise would be lost through obsolete equipment and processes.

The seeds of considerable development are now firmly sown by linking the Plassey technological facilities and the NIHE in Limerick to the needs of our industrial development. These technological and educational services are available to both small and large industry throughout the country. This marriage between educational facilities and our industrial development needs is a resource of immense potential.

Finally, I wish to refer to the question of industrial strategy. Our industrial strategy for the future needs very careful attention and very careful thought. Labour is no longer cheap. We do not have the industrial structure to engage in heavy industry like ship-building or the refining of crude oil. However, we have a highly educated labour force which has more to offer by way of brains than brawn. With the advent of micro-processors and the pool of expertise that is now available we have the opportunity to apply decentralised technology throughout the country. In other words, we have the competence in Ireland, in Irish institutions with Irish experts to adopt ideas and to apply them to the development of new products. The challenge is to carve. out market niches for these products. I welcome the Bill and wish to congratulate all personnel in SFADCo on the excellent work they are doing. This Bill is a vote of confidence in SFADCo and I heartily support it.

Mr. McDonald

I rise to welcome the Bill and to wish SFADCo continued success in the tremendous work they have done and the great contribution they have made to industrial development in the Shannon region over the last 20 years. I should also like to express my satisfaction that they have included in their area some territory in a portion of County Offaly. I look forward to tremendous energy being expended by them in that area which is in need of it.

When SFADCo came into being they were looked upon as pioneers of the work that they were undertaking. At present with so many companies in the country under pressure and some perhaps failing, when one of those hits the headlines the vast majority of companies who continue on in profitable commercial activity seem to go unnoticed. Perhaps the Minister, instead of paying grants to some of the foreign companies who come in here, would consider providing the interest on loans taken up by these companies. Thus the Government would finance for a period of years — whether it be three or five years — the loans necessary to establish the companies. This might not look as bad from the point of view of the public who in the main do not seem to care what is done. They complain when things go wrong but they conveniently do not see the excellent work being done in so many areas.

I am very glad that the Minister has decided to bring in this Bill which places this proven organisation in a better position and provides for its continued activity. In conclusion, I would like to welcome the Minister to the House and to wish him success with the tremendous burden of work that he has to undertake if the economic situation in the country is to be turned around. I welcome the Bill.

Mr. Kiely

I join with other Senators in welcoming the Minister of State here and congratulating him on his appointment. I welcome this legislation which will increase the finance to SFADCo. SFADCo are doing wonderful work for the mid-west region. When Deputy O'Malley was Minister for Industry and Commerce he introduced legislation to give responsibility to SFADCo for providing indigenous small industries in the mid-west region. He was criticised at the time for taking some powers away from SFADCo but it has been proved that the legislation was good. At that time Senator Howard in his contribution said:

I sincerely hope ... that some time in the future I will be able to concur with the views expressed by Senator Hillery now. They were confident and optimistic and I hope they will be proven to be correct.

They were proved to be correct.

An Leas-Chathaoirleach

What exactly was the Senator quoting from?

Mr. Kiely

I am quoting from column 635 Volume 88 of the Official Report. I am sorry that Senator Howard is not here today to concur with Senator Hillery on the success and the progress SFADCo have made.

During 1982 a total of 135 projects with employment potential of 1,362 jobs were approved for the mid-west region and west and south-west Offaly. Firms being assisted for the first time accounted for 62 per cent of the jobs approved. There was a wide dispersal of projects throughout the region, about 50 per cent being located outside the Limerick-Ennis-Shannon triangle. Eligible fixed asset investment in the 135 approved projects is estimated at £6.4 million with approved capital grants of approximately £3 million.

While the job approvals for the year were 10 per cent down on approvals for 1981, the out-turn for the year was considered satisfactory when viewed against a background of escalating costs, high interest rates and depressed markets. During the year the company vigorously pursued conversion of job approvals into actual jobs. A large proportion of available manpower and resources was also directed towards the maintenance of existing jobs. This helped to minimise the effect of the recession on small industry employment. A total of 564 jobs were created during the year in grant-aided firms. They were offset by 433 job losses resulting in a net gain of 131 jobs in grant-aided industry. Employment in non-grant-aided small industry contracted by 169 jobs, resulting in an overall loss in small indigenous industry of 38 jobs. This is great progress in a time of very serious unemployment, and SFADCo must be congratulated on the great progress they are making in this area. Existing small firms have shown great resilience in the difficult economic climate of recent years. To survive and develop they have had to learn how to improve their scarce resources and improve the marketing of their products. As a result these small industries should be in a strong position to expand and create additional jobs when trading conditions improve.

The company's field officers are doing a great job and must be complimented. They are situated in Limerick servicing the city and county, Ennis serving County Clare, Nenagh servicing Tipperary north and Birr servicing west and south-west Offaly, for the purposes of generating and servicing small industry inquiries and providing an aftercare service aimed at removing the barriers which hinder the progress of grant-aided firms. During the year a comprehensive programme of industrial clinics was held in the majority of town and villages throughout the region. These generated an additional 150 new small industries. We must acknowledge the co-operation and support of the county development teams and officers in that great work.

The Minister referred to an Innovation Centre which was established by the company some time ago and is located in Enterprise House, Plassey Technological Park, Limerick. It provides a comprehensive product development service for small industries not alone in the region but throughout the country with a strong bias towards products of advanced technology and with export potential. In 1982 a total of 20 new products were developed in the centre and all of these are scheduled to commence production in 1983. This compares with a total of 12 products in 1981. At the end of 1982 a further 50 product ideas of commercial potential were at various stages of development at the centre.

I read in the local paper recently about planning permission sought for the provision of a food centre for small firms. This is a welcome venture, especially in view of the significant potential for job creation in food processing. In 1982 the company focused special attention on the development of this sector for small industry. During the year a successful food and drink exhibition was organised at Limerick together with a conference on food processing, which attracted 230 delegates from small industry throughout the region and county. This new food centre will be specially designed for food processing and will be of enormous benefit to exports maintaining international standards of hygiene. It will help Ireland too to compete effectively in the world processing markets. I am delighted that planning permission is sought for it and I am sure it will be granted and that the centre will be in operation soon.

The company must also be complimented on their area development. In 1982 they continued to encourage and support a number of self-help projects in the region. Existing area development projects at Southill in Limerick city, Anglesboro and Kilfinane in County Limerick and Sliabh Felim in north Tipperary all progressed during the year. Management grants and additional aids towards the establishment of community co-operatives were made available towards the end of the year and have since been incorporated in the area development programme.

Legislation was introduced, — the Minister referred to it in his speech — to give autonomy in west and south-west Offaly to SFADCo. A map of the mid-west region reveals it as a concentrated, compact area. North Kerry is at the other side of the estuary, Clare goes out to the end of the estuary and the mid-west region extends as far as the Kerry-Limerick border. I do not think that there would be any difficulty in including north Kerry in the SFADCo area as north-west, west and south-west Galway were included in it.

When Deputy O'Malley, the former Minister, introduced this legislation he stated that he and the Minister for the Environment were discussing the prospect of giving town commissioner status to Shannon. Shannon town has been granted town commissioner status since then which is another recognition of the role of and development in the Shannon area.

I will conclude by welcoming this Bill. It is providing further finance to SFADCo to ensure that they continue the good work they have been doing. I would like to compliment all these small industries in the mid-west region and the SFADCo region for the great employer-employee relations that exist. There is very little industrial unrest. It is an example to many big industries and others where there is industrial unrest. I welcome the Bill and wish SFADCo every success.

Mr. Lanigan

Like the other speakers I should like to welcome the Minister to the House and wish him well in the present very difficult situation. His application to the job will be more appreciated by people who know him than by others in his own area who have apparently given up on the role of this House and the other House in the organisation of matters of the State. It might appear out of order for somebody from outside the Shannon Free Airport Development Company region to be speaking on this Bill but it gives us an opportunity to discuss the role of the State in the private enterprise area. It also gives us an opportunity to discuss whether the marriage between the two can be successful or unsuccessful. Shannon Free Airport Development Company have proved themselves in that they have married State resources and the resources of the people of the area they are working in and that marriage has proved very successful.

In many areas at present there are lacks in private enterprise and in general there is a lack of capital. The State has the opportunity to put capital into development enterprise. The resources of the State in the case of Shannon Free Airport are being used to the best advantage of the State and the people in the region. The industries which are being set up under the aegis of Shannon Free Airport Development Company in general have been successful. In terms of set-ups they have been more successful than enterprises which have been started on a purely commercial basis, in other words set up by private individuals with good ideas but without the resources to back them up. This is where I see the development of Shannon Free Airport Development Company and other State companies. The role of these State promoted enterprises together with the ideas which can come from industry are very important.

When we are talking about Shannon Free Airport Development Company we cannot get away from the fact that, as a resource organisation, they are involved with CTT, the IDA, semi-State and State organisations. They are also dependent on the Department of Finance, the Department of Industry and Energy and the Department of Trade, Commerce and Tourism. There are so many State involvements in SFADCo that even though it is under the aegis of one Department it is dependent on other Departments for finance and other resources. When we are speaking about SFADCo, should we not now be discussing the setting up of a national resource agency where all the abilities, expertise, energy and historical experience of the IDA, CTT, SFADCo, KDW should be brought together as a national resource agency so that their expertise can be used? There is a lot of energy being put into the development of export businesses by SFADCo, the IDA and CTT and CTT sponsor groups to go abroad to look for contracts. If there is a major contract going say in the Middle East or America, CTT will sponsor perhaps 20 or 30 individual firms to go out and look for contracts within that major contract area. In many cases they pay fares to executives of companies who are competing for the same contact. These people come back; they do a feasibility study, they then get down to tender and perhaps in the Irish context you might have 20 Irish firms contracting for sub-contract in a major contract abroad. SFADCo, CTT, IDA and the Minister should be addressing themselves to this dissipation of a national asset. Why not set up a national resource agency which could, if there is a major international contract going, identify the areas in which there could be an Irish input? They could then do a feasibility study and contact the firms here who could deal with that contract.

The food processing, industry and the input that SFADCo have made into this area was mentioned. In the food industry hundreds of people sponsored by CTT go abroad to do feasibility studies mostly at their own expense apart from a little help from CTT but they just have not got the expertise in setting up the package which will enable them to get into the market in which they are interested.

SFADCo have identified projects and markets and helped to set up small firms to deal with the market potential. One of the problems when semi-State or State companies get involved with small industries is that they secure the availability of capital but they do not spell out how much it is going to cost to pay back what is borrowed. Semi-State or State bodies should spell out to industrialists how much per £1,000 per week, how much per £1,000 per month or how much per £1,000 per year they are going to have to repay on their borrowings. When you have a 33 per cent or a 35 per cent rate of tax, how do you specify what your actual turnover is? That is not spelled out in the magnificent brochures that are put out by SFADCo, the IDA and CTT.

The Minister said that SFADCo are now bringing out a new brochure setting out their aims and objectives and the availability of their resources. The first SFADCo booklet detailing the grants, the area and what was available to SFADCo was the first one could bring to a foreign country as an example of what is available in a particular region in Ireland as regards set-up, capital availability or grants.

I am glad that the South-Eastern Regional Development Organisation took up the challenge that SFADCo offered at the time and produced a magnificent information booklet on the south-eastern region. But, unfortunately, glossy booklets are not what people need. They need to know how much they would have to put up themselves, how many grants are available and the rate of repayment of loans. I stress again that it is not the percentage—you go to a hire purchase company and they will quote you a 14 per cent interest rate and you suddenly find out that the 14 per cent interest rate is 14 plus 14 less one or you go to a bank and it is 16 plus 16 less one. People should be told that you will have to pay back approximately £1,000 per month on £50,000 over three years. It should be spelt out so that they will know that each week they will have to put by £100, £200 or £300, or whatever the amount is to repay their loan. One of the problems in helping to set up industry by SFADCo and by other semi-State bodies has been that the repayment of the loans has not been spelt out in greater detail.

There is tremendous potential as between SFADCo and the Kilkenny Design Workshops in the industrial design area because industrial design has become a very important element only recently. When industrial design or the Kilkenny Design Workshops were mentioned originally, people thought of arty crafty elements of design but the design of an air pump sells that air pump just as does the design of a perfume bottle sell that perfume bottle. The difference good presentation of a good product can make is amazing. That product will sell better than bad presentation of a good product.

I can see a marriage between KDW and SFADCo and I understand the Department of Finance were asked by SFADCo and KDW to underwrite, set up costs or set up losses for an initial few years of a KDW retail cum showroom cum KDW enterprise in the Shannon Free Airport Development Company's area in Limerick. The potential of this would have been enormous but KDW could not get from the Department of Finance the nesessary guarantees that their set up costs would be met, that their set up losses would be met or SFADCo could not get, from within their own resources, the necessary funds to ensure that the enterprise would be set up on what would be considered a normal commercial basis. Since the State was going to be the innovator, since KDW have proved themselves a huge success and since the enterprise that they considered setting up with SFADCo in Limerick would also have proved a success, the State should have got involved in that project because it would have been selling Irish design and Irish expertise; it would have been selling Ireland in a commercial sense. The amount of money that would have been involved was small by State spending standards. There should be more liaison between KDW, CTT, IDA and SFADCo.

We had an enabling Bill here towards the end of last year to give KDW an extra £500,000 and this money was used to develop KDW on a commercial basis. It has proved successful because KDW, at a time of recession, have a retail outlet in Nassau Street in Dublin and are making a profit. SFADCo have proved themselves, just as KDW have, but I should like to see a marriage of the resources available to us and this marriage could take place even in a recessionary period.

I welcome the Bill but I ask the Minister to look at the possibility of setting up a national resource agency to see if we can marry not alone the State agencies but also the resources that are available from outside the State. Then we can get into the export and industrial markets to a much greater degree than we do at present.

Minister of State at the Department of Industry and Energy (Mr. E. Collins)

I want to thank the Members for the personal welcome which they have given me here this morning. It is always a pleasure to come to the Seanad. I want also to thank them for partaking in the discussion on the Bill.

The sums mentioned in this enabling Bill are the largest sums ever allowed to the Shannon Free Airport Development Company since its establishment by the Oireachtas in 1959. This shows the commitment which the Government have to the company and to the continuing development of SFADCo. The praise which I have heard today for the company and their employees is to be welcomed and indeed the company have shown themselves to be very forward looking in their operations and involvement with industry, with the airport and with the community which they serve. I wish to mention that, because it is worth noting that the Government have every confidence in the company and in the future development of the mid-west region as a whole.

The last review of the company by the Oireachtas was in 1980 and it is estimated in this Bill that the funds being provided will be sufficient for the next three or perhaps four years. I think that this is a good way of providing funds to State bodies because it means in effect that there is a need for a Bill every three or four years which must be processed through both the Dáil and Seanad. This, therefore, allows an Oireachtas debate on the activities of the company on, say, a three yearly basis. This leads to good accountability to the Oireachtas and gives an opportunity to Members to express their opinions on the company on a periodic basis.

I should now like to reply briefly to some of the points raised by the Senators in the debate. Senator Honan, showing her obvious native knowledge of the area, in a long and very constructive speech made a few points which I should like to reply to.

In relation to factories using the airport, SFADCo make every effort to provide air transport and indeed are looking at new projects. One of the main considerations which the company takes into account is, of course, the capacity to develop air transport. SFADCo cannot dictate to companies the manner in which they operate their own commercial undertakings. Circumstances and relative costs change in time and in various industries. Ultimately, it is up to individual companies to decide how and in what manner they wish to transport their goods.

Regarding the question of customs clearance arrangements, there are ongoing negotiations with regard to this matter. SFADCo will be asked again to continue these negotiations thoroughly and sympathetically. I fully appreciate the point made and I can assure the Senator that the negotiations will be carried on.

SFADCo's co-operation with local authorities in the region which they serve is essential, indeed vital. To date, the relationship between the company and the local authorities has been excellent. It is only fair also to point out that the local authorities concerned have been most anxious to co-operate and the relationship on both sides should be mentioned. The establishment of Shannon Town Commissioners has been achieved. The elections have been very successful — at least for the Opposition Party.

Mrs. Honan

We will keep it that way.

Mr. E. Collins

Perhaps with maturity, that will be reflected——

Mrs. Honan

What a reflection on the people of Shannon, maturity——

Mr. E. Collins

I meant that as the Town Commission as an authority matures, I am sure we will see a reflection in the representation. In the 1981 annual report the question was raised about jobs on the ground. It is fair to point out that, since 1978, SFADCo have created and sustained almost 2,000 jobs in the mid-west region. I will communicate privately with Senator Honan regarding the breakdown of the job creation success of SFADCo and the IDA in the mid-west region as well as the Shannon Free Airport area. This may be of benefit to the Senator, as it would take too long to give the details here.

Regarding two companies to which the Senator referred, Interton and Interstretch, they are not directly within SFADCo's remit. They are within the IDA'S remit but I assure the House that the IDA are making every effort to effect the take-over of the company. In that connection, I am pleased to note that the sit-in in Interton has ceased. I should say quite clearly that where factories stop producing and go into receivership or liquidation, sit-ins militate against the take-over of a factory. There is nothing to be achieved by sit-ins. They are a most negative form of protest. In fact they ensure the factory closure and many people who are inclined to think that sit-ins are a good way to protest should bear in mind that sit-ins are a positive disincentive to the re-opening of factories. Members of the Seanad will appreciate the need for me to state that here on this Bill. It refers to the country in general, but it should be stated and, where necessary, re-stated. The Government and the IDA are trying to re-open factories and it is my responsibility to condemn any action that will militate against that.

The question was raised regarding Aer Lingus's activity. Senators will appreciate that Aer Lingus are not the responsibility of a Department. Their management and decisions come within the remit of the Minister for Transport. However, I will bring to the attention of the Minister and to the attention of SFADCo the point made with regard to the commitment of Aer Lingus to Shannon. Again, in relation to the charter flights I will ask SFADCo and Aer Rianta to discuss the matter further. I understand, according to an article in Business and Finance that a suggestion has been made that the Boeing 747 is perhaps not the best aircraft for the trans-Atlantic route. I am not able to comment on this assertion. I have flown in a 747 and found it very comfortable, but I could not comment on its economic efficiency. It is really a matter for Aer Rianta and the Minister for Transport.

Regarding a further Bill to enhance Shannon, at present SFADCo employ five people directly in promoting air traffic in North America. These people work closely with Aer Lingus and Bord Fáilte representatives in the promotion of traffic to Ireland and particularly to Shannon Airport. In addition, there are three people working for the company in this regard in Europe. They are aware of the need for promotion and have staff on the ground in the marketplace to promote the area, especially Shannon Airport.

Aer Lingus are introducing a short haul aircraft service through Shannon shortly. I understand that SFADCo are finalising negotiations with a small private airline company for a Shannon-based short haul air service to Dublin, Cork, Manchester, Bristol and so on. This is a good development and it may facilitate many people who might fly on to Dublin with the intention of flying to further destinations, of getting off in Shannon and taking a short haul plane to their destination. The development of this type of short haul service will enhance the prospects of Shannon Airport and the prospects of people actually disembarking and embarking at Shannon.

Senator O'Leary in his contribution referred to the need for regular and fundamental reviews of the company's operations both in the company itself and in consultation with the Department of Industry and Energy and other Departments. These reviews take place on a regular basis. It is fair to say in the light of what I said earlier about the three-year reviews which take place in the Oireachtas that the company is open to scrutiny in a very welcome and clear way. Oireachtas Members have the right to discuss State companies in the House where it matters. In regard to SFADCo, this review does take place both at a professional and staff level. In addition, every facility is given to Members in the House to review its activities on a periodic basis. Any question of the spread or increase of the company's regional responsibility would be examined very rigidly. Senator O'Leary's remarks were very interesting and will certainly be borne in mind. There is no intention at this point of extending the territorial responsibility of SFADCo and I would not like to build up hopes in that regard.

Senator Smith made a number of points to which I would like to refer. He made a plea for decentralisation and the need to remove power from Dublin. We can all agree that there is a need for decentralisation. It is fair to say that the existence of the Shannon Free Airport Development Company is a reflection of the wish in this House and the Government for decentralisation. The success of SFADCo is also a reflection of the success that can be made in industry outside Dublin. Dublin is becoming over-populated. Its traffic problems are increasing year after year. This will make it very attractive for industry not to locate in Dublin but to locate in other areas.

It must be said that the preferential treatment which SFADCo has in regard to Shannon must be a very attractive incentive for industry to locate in the area. Its record in job-creation and industrial creation is something that has been acknowledged in the House and is an indication that Shannon is an attractive industrial location. The Industrial Development Authority have taken serious steps to regionalise their activities in particular in regard to their small industrial operations. They have been regionalised in a very professional way.

I would agree with the Senator in regard to the importance of local and community involvement. This is what SFADCo is all about and has been very successful in promoting. It was very encouraging to hear Senator Smith's remarks about the success of the rural industrial co-operative. Regarding food imports, I am glad to say that SFADCo is developing a major initiative in high quality, high value-added food products. This is one of the company's greatest challenges and I look forward to developments in this regard and the plans which they have on hand to develop a food centre. It is something that the House and the Industrial Development Authority would welcome.

An Cathaoirleach

May I interrupt the Minister? The Leader of the House has something to say.

Mr. O'Leary

Yes. If the Minister is going to finish the Second Stage speech in the next few minutes it would be appropriate to finish the speech and adjourn for one hour from that time.

Mr. E. Collins

I would appreciate the House's understanding. If possible, I would also like to have the agreement of the House to take all Stages today. I do not think there is anything controversial in this matter.

Mr. O'Leary

All Stages will be taken today.

Mr. Lanigan

If it would not be any problem, we should take all Stages now. We could allow the Minister to make his Second Stage speech and then take the next Stages immediately.

Mr. O'Leary

I suggest we adjourn from 1.15 p.m. to 2.15 p.m.

Mr. E. Collins

Senator Hillery referred to industrial strategy. I am sure the Senator is aware that a White Paper on industrial policy is in the course of preparation and, hopefully, will be published shortly. That would be a more appropriate document on which to have a broader discourse on industrial strategy. I am sure that the House will have an opportunity of discussing the White Paper when it is published.

Senator McDonald can be assured that Offaly will be given attention. Since SFADCo took over de facto responsibility for south and south-west Offaly, they have been very successful in promoting small industry in the area. The question raised by Senator McDonald of guaranteeing company loans rather than grants will be covered in the White Paper. I think the Senator will see some developments in that area.

Senator Hourigan raised a question on the scope for development of small industry. This matter is receiving constant attention by SFADCo, the Department and by the IDA. SFADCo is not in any way complacent about the potential for small industrial development in the area. SFADCo's track record on the development of small industries is impressive by any standards. This has also been emphasised by Senator Hillery.

In regard to Senator Lanigan's contribution and the relationship between State agencies, the best way to organise the activities of these agencies has been and is a matter of concern. It is being closely examined and will be addressed in the White Paper. His suggestion about a national resource agency will be fully taken into account. I am sure there is merit in what the Senator has suggested but there is also a need in discussing these matters not to create a monolith and not to remove local powers to a national organisation. We must be careful in this area. We must be careful when we are discussing the need for a national resource agancy that it would not be creating another Dublin-based monolith which we would not like to see, given the success of the agencies that are based around the country.

Mr. Lanigan

Kilkenny being the natural centre.

Mrs. Honan

Clare must also be considered.

Mr. E. Collins

Perhaps I should move to the question of the Kilkenny Design Workshops. The board has decided not to go ahead with a retail outlet in Limerick. I appreciate that it might be a desirable development. Perhaps when funds are more readily available or generated from the Dublin retail outlet the board could review its position and make a decision to establish in Limerick. I am not sure if the development is in the granary rather than in the industrial estate.

I would like to take the opportunity to thank all the Senators for their excellent contributions.

Question put and agreed to.

Agreed to take remaining Stages today.

Bill put through Committee, reported without recommendation, received for final consideration and ordered to be returned to the Dáil.

Sitting suspended at 1.15 p.m. and resumed at 2.15 p.m.