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Seanad Éireann debate -
Thursday, 2 Jun 1983

Vol. 100 No. 14

Finance Bill, 1983 [ Certified Money Bill ]: Second Stage (Resumed).

Question again proposed: "That the Bill be now read a Second Time."

I am not clear about the amendments which have been incorporated in the Bill since it was initiated. Senator O'Leary has referred to this problem also but I am sure we can sort that out on Committee Stage. There is always a difficulty in looking ahead in a situation like this. It would be easier to look back and I am sure next year we will be in a better position to look at the picture in a global sense. The general impression that has been created by the Bill is that the profit and savings are in the category of crime and that those who indulge in making a profit or save are criminals. There should be incentives to get people to save and invest. That is not helped by the Bill.

I should like to quote two short articles in this week's issue of The Meath Chronicle which will explain my point. The first article, headed “Auctioneer Slates Finance Act”, stated:

Trim auctioneer, Mr. Aidan Heffernan, has hit out at a provision in the new Finance Act and declared that it now seems to be "immoral" to be involved in a private business.

Mr. Heffernan, a director of Royal Auctioneers, blasted the Government last week over the controversial Finance Act which will allow the Revenue Commissioners to investigate individual's bank and building society accounts.

An irate Mr. Heffernan declared: "We have to do something. It's crazy. It is almost a mortal sin being in business. You're looked upon as being immoral".

Mr. Heffernan's remarks came at the annual meeting of Trim Chamber of Commerce at which he called on the organisation to support their counterparts in Cork who recently denounced the move. He said the self-employed were "sick to the teeth of being used as the panacea for tax evasion".

"The confidence among the business people is sadly lacking. I know people who are returning to England. There was a time I could bring people over here from England and they were sure of getting a business started. But now the reverse is happening".

Referring to the PAYE protests, Mr. Heffernan said everyone was paying taxes while businesses were being hit by corporation tax and VAT. "I would suggest that 15 per cent of any businessman's post today is some sort of correspondence from the Revenue Commissioners".

Mr. Heffernan declared: "its about time that we people began to protest. It is the trade unions that are running this country and not the politicians. Its almost a mortal sin to make a profit".

Mr. Heffernan added: "we can criticise that woman, Margaret Thatcher, across the road but by God she has got the stuff".

Local solicitor, Mr. Jim Martin, backing what Mr. Heffernan said, told the meeting: "If you're making a profit you're to be screwed". Mr. Martin said the new legislation would mean that money would "flood" out of the country from the State's financial institutions.

But the newly elected Vice-President of the Chamber, Mr. Charles Flattery, said the Commissioners would need a High Court order to inspect someone's account and that they would have to suspect the individual of fraud.

As somebody who has been self-employed for a number of years, and has experience of manual work and working in the civil service, I suggest that there are many people who do not understand the problems of the self-employed. Senator Harte described himself as a working-class person and I hope I would be classified as a working-class person, because that is what I have been all my life. I am not sure that there is any other type of person at present. I would have thought that that appellation would be obsolete. However, the self-employed have a difficult time. They spend many sleepless nights, in many cases work long hours and do not enjoy the holidays that other people have. In 15 years I have had one week's holidays and am typical of the self-employed. There are very good financial incentives for those who would want to go into business on their own and become self-employed. People are inclined to look at those who have succeeded and not at those who have failed. Many have failed and gone by the wayside.

With all the pressure groups that have mushroomed over the years it is not inconceivable that at some stage because of this Bill we will have a tax evaders association. It does seem that because of this Bill, and its approach to profit and saving, that in years to come it will be dangerous and expensive to be born into any kind of well-off family. It is possible people born in the future will, perhaps, regret that the Eighth Amendment to the Constitution was ever passed.

To refer to the Eighth Amendment to the Constitution Bill is getting very far away from the Finance Bill.

The next article I should like to quote from The Meath Chronicle is headed, “Tax Decision Hits Factory in Ballivor” and states:

There has been as drastic drop of 50 per cent in orders to a Ballivor factory as a direct result of the removal of tax concessions at the beginning of April.

The Government's decision not to renew a tax concession scheme, first introduced in 1979, has meant that one of the showpieces of small industry in Meath has experienced a dramatic reduction in orders in a little over a month.

Last year Norman Pratt Sons Limited, the major conservatory and greenhouse manufacturers at Carnisle, Ballivor, were hailed by the IDA's small industry division as one of the great examples of local enterprise in Meath.

But as a result of the removal of the tax concession to customers allowed under the Finance Act of 1979 and renewed each year since until last April, Mr. Pratt says he has suffered a dramatic reduction in orders and in the future months he may not be able to sustain the number of employees he has at present.

The scheme of tax concessions was introduced in 1979 in an effort to assist businesses such as Mr. Pratts with a high labour content.

The construction and erection of conservatories, garden sheds and greenhouses has a high labour intensity and because of this the Government of the time offered tax concessions to customers.

For instance the purchaser of a £2,600 glasshouse would be entitled to a tax rebate of £900 and this incentive proved extremely popular with the public. Double glazing and the fitting of aluminium windows and other labour intensive home improvements carried out by "registered persons" also qualified under the provisions.

But now Mr. Pratt, who employs a total of 36 people, including his four sons, says the future is not so bright. "I maintain that I blame that (the removal of the tax concession) directly. In the long run it might affect my employees."

Mr. Pratt says that 60 per cent of the business he was engaged in was labour intensive, but now that his orders have fallen and he is no longer going "full steam" his position might have to be reviewed in relation to employees.

Mr. Pratt said the scheme had proved popular with the public, particularly with people who were paying a large tax bill. "I know of one woman who was paying £8,000 a year to the tax man and this scheme gave her the opportunity, for once in her life, of getting something back", he said.

He added that he had lobbied sitting Meath TDs including the Minister——

I hesitate to interrupt the Senator but long quotations are out of order. I was very lenient with the Senator on his first quotation but I do not think he is being fair to me.

I had almost completed.

The Senator may complete the quotation, but long quotations are completely out of order.

I will return to the Bill. The approach with regard to tax collection is ruthless. While I agree with previous speakers, Senator Ferns in particular, I would be more in sympathy with the poor people or those below the poverty line. Speaking of the poor, I do not believe we have the number of poor that we had in my early days. Indeed, poverty as we know it now has no relationship to the poverty as I knew it some years ago. I mean poverty and all its implications, not simply what Patrick Kavanagh referred to as poverty in the mind.

I agree that we must have a property tax, that people who have the wealth in property should pay their fair share of tax. Whether the mechanics of this section are right or not is another matter. Is Senator Ferris right when he refers to all these people as privileged, because as another Senator said, there may be situations where houses would be unpaid for and people would be on a big mortgage? It would seem to me there should be some kind of arrangement in the Bill to cater for people who had big loans which they were repaying for their property.

Senator Browne was very sympathetic to the self-employed. He did say that people do not seem to understand farmers and I agree with him and with Senator Cregan that farmers, indeed, have had a bad time. I also feel that when farmers are doing well the country is doing well. It is important that farmers do well. In relation to problems farmers have encountered in the last few years, we must remember that the price of land has gone down from about £4,000 an acre and over a few years back to less than £1,000 now and some farmers were left in a pretty bad way.

I am particularly concerned with the construction industry and housing. This is an area in which we have many operators in a very bad situation. We have small builders who, have worked hard, who are experts in many spheres of building and over the years they have kept small staffs of skilled craftsmen as the nucleus of their operation and in the last year they have been forced to let men go. I would like to see housing grants increased to help to ease the situation. Perhaps also the possibility of loans could be looked at again because the qualifying limit for SDA loans could easily be increased and perhaps, maximum amounts could be increased to try to help this particular sector.

The situation in education has been very well covered. Senator Ryan said this was an area that could be regarded as a productive investment. We are all concerned about the schools. I attended a meeting recently where the parents met because of their concern about this problem in the schools. The three major problems were the pupil-teacher ratio, career guidance counsellors and transport. The point was made at the meeting that a certain amount of money was provided for education and that in this context money could only be taken from one at the expense of another. I felt that this was a cause for concern because something more imaginative should be done in this area. Otherwise, if money is going to be decreased, eventually we will have a major problem.

The question has been asked so many times: do we go on educating people who can reasonably have expectations of jobs that never materialise? I made the point before that boredom was a big problem at present, and in our institutions we should deal with leisure and train people to deal with their leisure time.

The problem of unemployment has been discussed by most Senators. When the Seanad on 24 March was dealing with the Social Welfare Bill, I referred briefly to this matter but I was unable to give it the time I felt was necessary. The Minister at that time, Deputy Barry Desmond, stated what we all knew: that the single biggest element of social welfare expenditure is the mounting cost of unemployment. We all know that it has other serious implications as well as financial implications. He went on then to state that in this year provision has been made for £473 million for unemployment payments for an estimated 203,000 unemployed, a quarter of all expenditure on unemployment and more than half the amount to be borrowed to meet the estimated overall current budget deficit of £879 million. These are horrifying statistics particularly when we calculate on a rising graph and it is imperative that a solution be found without delay. This calls for an immediate and radical approach to the problem which is not included in the Finance Bill.

To eliminate any misunderstanding, I want to make a few brief assertions. As I said before, everyone is entitled of right to an input consistent with the minimum acceptable standards of comfort and human dignity. I also said that chanty is out of date. Handing out free money in the face of economic reality is not a solution. On the other hand, work for work's sake is not acceptable. I think it would be true to say that to the nearest point 100 per cent of the employable force in this country want to work. Industry has been geared over the years to the reduction and even elimination of labour in the interests of profits and even it would be claimed in some cases, viability. The question then is: keeping all this in mind, is it possible to reconcile full employment with the utilisation of modern science and technology? I believe it is, because, if not, the pessimistic forecasts of the political pundits are inevitable.

Where do we start? It would be my contention that shorter working hours are unavoidable, and that training to deal with leisure time, as I have said before, is an important consideration for our teaching establishments because work as we have traditionally known it is gone and the problem of boredom is all too evident. With that proviso I believe the State should set up the framework to provide work for all those unemployed and I underline the word "all". The question is how? I would suggest by devising productive schemes that would absorb this force without being in competition with private enterprise. Using purely notional figures, say, in a particular region, £50 million is paid out in unemployment benefit at present. If £25 million were added to this for the same number of people so that the recipients would be well remunerated to work on productive schemes, a return of only £26 million of this £75 million would be an improvement on the present position whereby there is no return for £50 million. I see no reason why the return could not equal the full amount. Many productive schemes could be undertaken, such as afforestation, quarries and gravel pits, roads, bridges, housing, turf and industrial projects. What is needed is a radical approach. The system which we have could be compared to an old thatched house; for ages the roof is thatched and thatched, until in the end the structure of the roof collapses. A new approach is imperative but, with a commitment to providing solutions that would yield immediate and long-term results, I would be entirely optimistic.

Before I finish I would like to make a brief reference to the itinerants. In that context I would like to see them established in a settled community and we would then devote more time to them.

This has nothing at all to do with the Finance Bill. You may be able to get it on the next Stage. Certainly, it is completely out of order now.

I have completed what I wanted to say on that. I know I have been slightly out of order at times. Would the Cathaoirleach allow me to finish with a short story in order to illustrate a point I want to make?

I am finding it very hard to stop the Senator.

I do not want to fight with the Cathaoirleach. This is a very short story and I am using it to illustrate a point. In my own parish in County Meath, in Kilbeg, there was a small farmer who disliked the gentry. He was out one day working in a field along a gripe when the hunt came along. The fox came first and he jumped across the gripe. The came the hounds.

You are surely getting away from the Finance Bill now.

Eventually the first huntsman, who was a wealthy gentleman whom the farmer disliked — he had no time for wealthy people — shouted across to the farmer asking "Has it a bottom?", meaning the bank on the far side. The farmer shouted back "It has, a bottom like the road". So the huntsman went back and came cantering to it, jumped across and within a few seconds all that was above the surface was the horse's head and the man's head. He had got bogged down. He shouted to the farmer saying, "I thought you told me it had a bottom". The farmer shouted back "So it has, if you go down far enough". In relation to this Bill, I feel the Minster has not gone down far enough. He has not felt the bottom.

Before I call on Senator Robinson, could the Leader of the House tell us if we are adjourning from 6 o'clock to 7 o'clock for tea?

I am in the hands of the House in that regard.

I agree that we should adjourn for tea from 6 o'clock to 7.

I propose to carry out my intention to speak briefly on the Finance Bill at this rather late stage of a long debate. I want to discuss it and come at it from two very different perspectives. First, I want to make some general observations about the intentions of the Bill and the general economic climate and then I want to refer to some specific sections and raise a number of questions that I hope the Minister will respond to in his reply to the debate.

The first general observation that I would like to make is to comment — as other Members have done — on the extraordinarily depressed state in which the country finds itself at the moment. This is evident in individual responses of people that you meet in the street or in the work place. It is evident in comments made by the media. It is evident to a considerable extent in our general outlook and psyche as a nation at the moment. It is a matter that we ought to take stock of and note as being itself a negative factor and something which can be quite damaging to us. It is possibly worse in an Irish context than it might be for some other countries because as a people we have, possibly, a tendency to suffer from depressive aspects in our personalities. We are easily depressed and if depressed we go down as a nation and find it difficult to respond positively to difficulties.

The reason for couching my observations in such a broad way is to ponder how a Government and, indeed, leaders in the country can ensure that the reaction and the response that we make to difficulties at the moment is one which will help us to cope with and surmount those difficulties. It is important that the leadership that is given is a positive and rather more optimistic and purposeful leadership than we are perhaps getting at the moment. The emphasis is on the problems. The emphasis is on the extent to which, through over-borrowing, we have got ourselves into difficulties. The emphasis is on the extent to which, through heavy taxation, we must try to resolve those difficulties. There is not sufficient attention being paid to the human factors involved, to the depressing effect this has on people, individually and collectively, individually in their families and collectively in their communities and even in a more general national sense.

The approach to surmounting our problems is part of the way in which we surmount them. It is part of the way in which we devise the programme and action plan to get ourselves out of our difficulties. I have noted, as other contributors to the debate have — indeed the Minister himself made reference to this — that the Finance Bill is receiving very close scrutiny. It has received close scrutiny both in the media and in both Houses of the Oireachtas which is understandable because of the difficult times and because it is seen in a sort of punitive light. It is seen as being a measure which will worsen the immediate situation for a very broad number of individuals and which is deemed to be necessary at the moment because of the overall plight in which we find ourselves.

In fact, the Finance Bill is one of the major fiscal measures by which a Government can direct and can move in a policy direction and can try to generate a sense of action and of purpose in surmounting our problems. Therefore, I believe that it is going to be extremely important from now on this year and in the difficult years ahead that measures which are brought forward, particularly measures of important fiscal and economic policies are part of a coherent and constructive plan of action, of where we are going and how we are going to get there, devised in such a way as to lift people to an aceptance of hard measures because they are leading to a better deal for the individuals involved, for their children and their children's children and so on. It is possible to bring people to an acceptance of the particular difficulties that require to be surmounted. But this is not done in a negative and punitive and pejorative context so that the people feel weighed down, hopeless, depressed, fed up and then alienated from the Government which is bringing forward or deciding on these particular measures.

I believe that great care requires to be taken by any Government in a country such as Ireland at the moment, with a young and insufficiently employed population. I agree with my immediate predecessor on the problem of people having no real stake in the country and having a great deal of leisure without the possibility of an involvement through employment in the structures and the general economic and social life of the country. Therefore any Government seeking to lead and seeking to devise a programme and plan of action over the next few years should have as well as actual measures high in its priorities a necessity to communicate a positive framework, to communicate in a much more constructive and inspirational way which will enable decisions to be both taken by the Government and broadly accepted in the community so that we do not have a continuation of a certain appearance of social disintegration which is evident in certain aspects of the political and social life in Ireland at the moment and which is worrying a great many people. We do need much deeper and better communication, two-way communication, listening at the top level as well as pronouncing but also that all this would be in a cogent and coherent plan of action, as I said.

I believe that the kind of leadership which the Government must offer at the moment is one which involves as broad a range of people within the community as possible in reacting to and coming forward with suggestions and being listened to in those suggestions about how we resolve the problems. That leadership must be concerned with explaining, again as I say, in a more optimistic and purposeful way the reasons why it is necessary and, indeed, vital, to the broad security and coherence of this country that we do maintain a high level of taxation over the next few years. The necessity for that is quite inevitable particularly with the demands of a young and growing population but the way in which that fundamental message is communicated is almost as vital as the message itself. How we spell it out, how we involve and include people are almost as important as the actual steps that are being proposed.

I say this because the wide focus of attention on this Finance Bill has very largely regarded it as a punitive and negative measure which has imposed certain degrees of burden on individuals and which is doing very little to redress the overall problem. I do not think that this is in fact a fair or adequate comment on the Finance Bill of 1983. The interesting aspect of the Bill is the extent to which it is not a radical overhaul of the taxation system. Indeed, I would make that a qualified criticism of the Bill. I would qualify the criticism because I am of the view that there was not adequate time between the change of Government at the end of last year and the necessity to finalise the budgetary provisions and publish the Finance Bill for a radical overhaul. This is by no means a dramatic shift in regard to who will carry the tax burden over the next few years. It is by no means a radical step in achieving equity in the bearing of the tax burden. It is by no means a measure which is substantially hurting the better off in our society. Therefore it is interesting to view the extent to which its measures are nonetheless being protested about and criticised as being punitive.

It certainly is a serious attempt to control and curtail tax evasion and perhaps the extent of the outcry is some indication that it was not before time that we had a serious fiscal measure to curtail and control tax evasion. It does not have substantial proposals for wealth tax. It does not have substantial proposals for broadening the tax base in the community. It does not have some of the far-reaching measures which may well — and hopefully will — become part of our approach to tax reform over the next few years. Yet it has been greeted with a level of dismay and regarded as being a very punitive measure. At least part of the way in which the Finance Bill is seen is because of the context and the manner in which it has been presented, because of the negative and depressive approach that has been adopted, not, I am sure, deliberately and presumably unconsciously in the way in which the Minister himself and other spokespersons on behalf of the Government have argued the need for this measure. It is not seen in the context of a way of getting our acts together, of a productive plan of action for this country which will help in a concrete and constructive way to resolve our very intractable problems. It is seen in isolation, subjectively and selectively and, therefore, certain aspects of it are singled out for particular criticism which, as I say, is not in fact a balanced and fair comment on the kind of problems which we have in this country at the moment.

Like a number of other people I am concerned that the Finance Bill has been a further incentive to a kind of tax revolt, a determination by those who are employed and holding jobs, particularly those who pay what they correctly — broadly speaking — regard as too heavy a share of the tax burden, the PAYE workers, to revolt against paying any more tax. It is extremely important that the overall needs and balance in our society be presented in such a way that the message is not only received but is accepted that we must maintain over the next number of years the high level of Government revenue which will ensure that we provide the services and the general structure for a large dependent and a young growing population, for the old dependant, the infirm and those who need the special services and care provided by State agencies and also the health, welfare, education and other needs of a young, growing population. It is a matter of concern because it is part of this negative spiral that I have been describing that there is this selective revolt against paying taxes and a narrow perspective in which that revolt is being examined and discussed and being commented on in the media.

One of the reasons why this is a fairly destructive and divisive internal debate that is happening in Ireland at the moment is because there is not evidence of this constructive plan of action. We are not seeing the light at the end of the tunnel of four or five years of fairly severe restrictive measures in this country. We do not see the possibility that there will be a better, fairer and more equitable and more positive future either for the individuals themselves in the pipeline or for the young population coming on to the labour force each year. It is the lack of vision and imagination and the lack of leadership of that sort which has very substantially aggravated our immediate problems and given rise to a level of dissent and social disharmony far greater than anything that I certainly have witnessed in my time in public life.

Therefore, I would hope that the future fiscal planning and policy of the Government will be carved and moulded in a more positive and constructive framework and that we will see greater access to the information on which these policy decisions are based and greater involvement of sectors of the community in economic and tax planning over the next few years so that people will feel that they have been involved in the process themselves and that the measures being taken are part of a very substantial overall plan.

I would like to turn now briefly to two sections on which I would be pleased to have comments from the Minister in his reply. The first of these relates to the improvement in the position of separated couples in the income tax assessments and the maintenance provisions of separated couples. That has been widely recognised as a useful reforming measure in this Bill. However, I read with interest an article in The Irish Times dated 27 May 1983 by Donal Dorcy precisely on this provision pointing out that, although it is an improvement on the pre-existing situation which was undoubtedly very discriminatory against separated couples, it still contains a certain difficulty for couples who have not got the degree of co-operation requisite to file a joint assessment and who do not appear to be able to avail of separate assessment. If I may refer to a passage in this article where the——

Would the Senator move the Adjournment?

I move the Adjournment.

Debate adjourned.
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