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Seanad Éireann debate -
Wednesday, 9 Nov 1983

Vol. 102 No. 4

Oireachtas (Allowances to Members) and Ministerial, Parliamentary and Judicial Offices (Amendment) Bill, 1983: Second Stage.

Question proposed: "That the Bill be now read a Second Time".

I am sure that Senators are, by now, quite well aware of the general provisions of this Bill.

Any adjustment in the remuneration of parliamentarians inevitably gives rise to a great deal of critical comment, much of which, as we have seen over the past week, can be confused and misleading.

The simple fact is that Senators, Dáil Deputies, parliamentary office holders and members of the Judiciary have not received any increase in their remuneration for almost two and a half years — since June 1981. This position has arisen notwithstanding that the Review Body on Higher Remuneration in the Public Sector in their report of 30 October 1979 clearly indicated that the levels of remuneration which they recommended, and which the Government at the time accepted, should in the future attract all standard national agreements or other general round increases.

The provisions of the 1981 Public Service Pay Agreement, as amended, which provided for three phased increases of 2 per cent, 6 per cent and 5 per cent have been applied to all the groups dealt with by the review body with the exception only of parliamentarians and the Judiciary.

Since 1 September last, the first phase of the 1983 public service pay agreement has also been payable in the public service involving a further increase of 4.75 per cent.

It is, I believe, unfair and undesirable that parliamentarians or the Judiciary should, for no good reason, be excluded from the benefit of national or Public Service pay agreements which apply to all other categories of public servants. Failure to implement their provisions can only give rise to greater problems in the future when steps have to be taken to correct the neglect of past years. The Bill, therefore, provides that the increases under the 1981 Public Service pay agreement — 2 per cent, 6 per cent and 5 per cent — and the first phase of the 1983 public service pay agreement, 4.75 per cent, will be applied as from 1 September 1983, but without retrospection, to parliamentarians and to the annual sums payable to leaders of certain parties in Dáil Éireann. The full provisions as from the due dates, that is with retrospection, will be implemented in respect of the Judiciary. The Bill also provides that in the future general pay rounds applied to the Civil Service will also automatically apply to Oireachtas Members and to the Judiciary with effect from the appropriate dates. In this way the recommendation of the review body will, in the future, be adhered to.

I do not think that there is any good reason for depriving the Judiciary of the retrospective elements of these increases and for thus treating them less favourably than the rest of the public service. Accordingly, the Bill provides that the increases under the 1981 Public Service Pay Agreement and the first phase of the 1983 agreement will be applied in their case with retrospection to the due dates, that is, 2 per cent from 1 December 1981, 6 per cent from 1 March 1982, 5 per cent from 1 October 1982, together with 4.75 per cent from 1 September 1983.

In the case of the parliamentarians, however, the Government have decided that the 1981 agreement increases will apply from 1 September 1983 and without retrospection. As a result of this, TDs who served since the 1981 agreement came into effect will be at a permanent loss of £2,320 approximately which is the amount by which their remuneration fell short during the period up to 31 August 1983 and Senators will be at a corresponding loss of £1,450. A Senator currently in receipt of £7,619 per annum since June 1981 — if retrospection had been allowed — would have moved on 1 December 1981 to £7,828, on 1 March 1982 to £8,298 and on 1 January 1983 to £8,713 — this last phase to have actually been paid in January of this year, rather than October 1982, in accordance with the amendments to the 1981 agreement.

In the light of the prevailing economic climate I believe that Members of the Seanad will appreciate the reasons which compelled the Government to decide against payment of retrospection for parliamentarians.

These increases merely apply to parliamentarians, without the benefit of retrospection, a number of public service pay agreement phases which have applied from the due dates to public servants generally. Adjustments of this order have also been granted in the private sector. The 19 per cent increase so widely commented on in recent days is no more than the aggregate of these phases which have been enjoyed for up to two years by all other groups but which have been withheld until now from parliamentarians.

The opportunity is being taken in the legislation to amend the manner in which the terms of general round increases — such as those under the public service pay agreements — are applied to Members of the Oireachtas and the Judiciary in the future. Up to now a cumbersome procedure has resulted in a situation where many months could — and often did — elapse between the decision to implement a pay round and its actual payment. Firstly, there is required a Government decision, followed by the making of a Statutory Order which, in turn, must be laid before the Dáil for 21 sitting days before taking effect. Should a recess intervene, or if the decision to initiate the procedure takes place during a recess, the process is even longer. It will be obvious, therefore, that without delay on the part of Government, a considerable time may elapse before an ordinary phase, payable to all others, is actually paid to the Members of the Legislature.

In the past this process has resulted in a situation where a single increase has been reported or commented upon on a number of different occasions, giving the impression that there had, in fact, been a series of increases actually paid during the period. In the future, therefore, and commencing with the enacting of this legislation and the current public service pay agreement, increases applying generally to the Civil Service will be applied automatically to Members of the Oireachtas, to the annual sums payable to certain party leaders, and to the Judiciary, with effect from the due date in each case.

In relation to any other changes in parliamentary remuneration, arising, for example, as a result of a review body inquiry, provision is being made so that, in future, an order having immediate effect could be made either increasing or decreasing such remuneration and such an order would be capable of being annulled by resolution of the Dáil within 21 sitting days but without prejudice to anything already done thereunder.

In the case of the Judiciary, orders increasing remuneration will simply be presented to both Houses but would not, for constitutional reasons, be capable of annulment.

When a Seanad general election is called, as the House is probably aware, Senators continue to be paid their allowance until the day before polling day. Accordingly, a Senator who is re-elected continues to receive payment of the allowance without a break. A Dáil Deputy, however, ceases to qualify for allowance as from the date of dissolution of the Dáil — recent dissolutions have lasted for approximately three weeks — and qualification for resumption of payment does not occur until, and unless, the Deputy is re-elected to the subsequent Dáil. This has caused a serious loss of income to Deputies in recent years because of the holding of three general elections in a relatively short period of time.

The Review Body on Higher Remuneration in the Public Sector commented on this matter at paragraph 12.18 of the October 1979 report and said they felt that consideration should be given to the question of continuing payment of TDs' allowances up to the date before polling day for the new Dáil. The Government have decided that a sum equivalent to one-eighteenth of annual allowance shall be payable to a Deputy on dissolution of a Dáil. Arrangements will also be made to include the period of dissolution as reckonable for pension purposes.

Certain other changes, basically of a minor nature, are being brought into effect under the Bill. These include provision to allow changes to be made to the Members' pension scheme by ministerial amending scheme, provision that the posts of Cathaoirleach and Leas-Chathaoirleach of the Seanad be made pensionable, provision for amending the conditions for regarding the post of Attorney-General as pensionable and provision for removal of an anomaly in the pension terms of certain former Parliamentary Secretaries, which unintentionally resulted from the pension provisions for Ministers of State in the Oireachtas (Allowances to Members) and Ministerial, Parliamentary and Judicial Offices (Amendment) Act, 1977. I will be happy to explain these changes more fully on Committee Stage, where necessary.

It is my intention to introduce, by way of amending scheme under the new procedure, an optional situation whereby a defeated or retiring Member of the Oireachtas who has served the requisite eight qualifying years may decide to draw pension on the basis of one-fortieth for each year of service as at present, or, alternatively, to choose a lump sum, calculated actuarially, together with reduced pension payments based on three-one hundred and sixtieths for each year of service.

I also intend modifying the pension scheme to allow those with short service, who are not qualified for pension, to have their own pension contributions refunded to them as happens in most other pension schemes. This matter was referred to by the review body at paragraph 12.13 of their 1979 Report.

The review body, in dealing with superannuation matters, stated at paragraph 12.20 that they were taking the 6 per cent contribution payable by Members into account in considering the appropriate level of allowance and went on to say that if changes were to be made in relation to the refund of contributions where Members fail to qualify for pensions, severance grants for Deputies and the continuance of TDs' allowances beyond the date of dissolution of a Dail, these would have to be part of an overall package and improvements in benefits on these lines would require modifications elsewhere in existing arrangements.

As already stated, two of these matters are being dealt with, and it is my intention that these changes, and Members' conditions generally, will be considered by the review body when next a general review similar to that reported on in 1979 takes place. In relation to the question of severance grants the Government have decided against the introduction of such payments.

While they do not form part of the specific provisions of this Bill, nevertheless I think I should tell the House that it is also the intention of the Government, in conjunction with the passing of the Bill, to update Members' travelling, overnight and day allowances. These rates have not been increased since January 1980 and have clearly fallen out of line. For the future, Members who qualify will be paid the same mileage rates as are, for the time being, allowed to civil servants.

The present overnight allowance of £17.50 for those Members who are obliged to stay in Dublin while the Houses are in session is to be revised to £27.50. This applies where the Member resides more than 20 miles from the GPO and stays overnight in Dublin. The day allowance, payable to those Members who reside within ten miles of the House, is increasing from £10 to £16. Mileage allowance is not, may I remind the House, payable to these Members.

It should be pointed out that this was the level of increase which was deemed to be appropriate nearly a year ago. It is intended that, in the future, these figures will be adjusted by reference to Civil Service mileage and subsistence rates.

While on the subject of expenses, I would like to refer to what I consider to have been less than responsible coverage of this aspect in certain sections of the media. These have suggested that payments for expenses in some way constitute additional remuneration. Nothing could be further from the truth. The rates payable to Members of the Oireachtas are designed to recoup out-of-pocket expenses. It would surely be unreasonable to suggest that Members could carry out their duties as public representatives, such as travelling to Dublin for meetings of the Oireachtas, without incurring out-of-pocket expenses on travelling and accommodation. The overnight allowance payable is far from generous when compared to similar rates paid to many others, in both the public and private sectors, whose duties involve them in being away from home for protracted periods.

All that the main provisions of the Bill set out to do is to restore Members and the Judiciary to the level which the review body recommended they should be at, and maintained at, through application of wage agreements. This is being done by granting the terms of the 1981 Public Service pay agreement and the first phase of the 1983 agreement. In the case of parliamentarians the adjustment will take effect only from September last. This restores Members' remuneration to the level recommended by the review body but without retrospection. In the case of Seanad membership this results in a permanent loss of some £1,450 in retrospection vis-à-vis comparable Public Service income earners.

As I stated in Dáil Éireann there is an obligation upon those of us entrusted with the operation of a democracy to ensure that the democratic system is able to work. If we should see fit to shirk from providing for what we know is a fair, just and reasonable payment to any Member doing his or her job, and to single out parliamentarians alone as the group who should not be allowed increases applicable to the rest of society, and whose application to parliamentarians has been recommended by an independent review body, then we are doing both Parliament and democracy itself a disservice. I commend the Bill to the House.

I must commend the Minister on having come to the House with a Bill which is, to a number of people, the first one which is unpopular. It is extremely unpopular amongst the members of the public. There has been much comment on it, a lot of which has not been fully researched or thought out. Perhaps this is the first time that an unpopular public Bill has been recommended to the House.

I shall not go into what has been said in the other House or into what has been said in the media. But I will say that it is a very necessary Bill. I would suggest it was more necessary for the Members of this House than for those of the other House. There have been comments about the operations of this House or indeed the necessity for this House. We are a House of the Oireachtas. We play a very important part in the organisation of legislation. I would not hesitate to say that the level of debate on all aspects of legislation in this House has been equal to, if not better than, that in the other House. To many people we might seem to be irrelevant and it might appear as if we should be abolished. But I do not feel that this should be a House into which people are propelled, in their wheelchairs with a remedial teacher on one side, a blood bag on the other, being wheeled in to convalesce having been either defeated in the Dáil or not been selected for election to that House.

This House is very relevant. I was extremely upset by the remark of a trade unionist whom I would consider to be as well paid as any Member of this House, whether he be fulltime or part time, when he said the Seanad should be abolished, that we had dipped our hands into the public till to the tune of 19 per cent, plus expenses, that it was frightening. And, as the final insult, this trade union official said that the political convalescent home known as the Senate should be closed down, that the majority of its occupants are people who got the thumbs down from the electorate. He expressed amazement that the figure of £9,000 per annum could be paid as disappointment money. This was said by the General Secretary of the National Busworkers' Union at a conference in Ballina, County Mayo, last week. I presume that that trade union official was paid expenses to go to Ballina, County Mayo.

I will not have a word said about Ballina.

Ballina would be a beautiful place to go to and I would suggest that the said trade unionist had an enjoyable weekend there at the expense of the National Busworkers' Union. There is absolutely no doubt that he claimed his expenses. I suggest that his salary as General Secretary of the National Busworkers' Union is at least double that being paid to Members of this House.

I shall not advance any major case for the increase in the allowances to Senators but I can say that we are, in the main, part-time politicians. I make no bones about the fact that as part-time politicians every day that we come to this House costs us money. It has cost anybody who is in business an enormous amount of money. That is not only because we are unable, in our own businesses, to do the job as we were doing it before becoming Members but equally we have lost the confidence of our bankers, of the people who had been supporting us financially. Anybody who has gone on the Seanad trail will know how much it costs. Anybody who would maintain that £9,000 per annum — which is the new rate — would in any way compensate us is living in cloud-cuckoo land. I make no bones about the fact that we are part-time politicians. I do not think we are over-paid as part-time politicians. One might ask what is a part-time politician? A part-time politician — looking around on this side of the House, and I see people on the far side of the House also — is somebody who neglects his business, who goes to meetings seven nights a week, somebody who never sees his home and who has financial problems created because of his part-time obligation to the Oireachtas.

The adjustment being made is extremely necessary. I am not going to say that there are not people around the country who would have a justifiable case in maintaining that we should not get it because their position is worse. I do not think that should be the argument. The case was made again that, unless we receive reasonable remuneration, the Houses of the Oireachtas will become a rich man's club. I am afraid the time has come — because of the cost involved — that it will be a rich man's club, or it will be a club for people who are retired or, for those people supported by outside interests. The day that this House becomes one supported by outside interests — in the same way as has happened in the United States and in other countries — will be the day democracy ceases to function here. There is the situation obtaining in a lot of democracies at present in which parliamentarians are not paid sufficient to do the job they are supposed to do. What has happened in these democracies? Special-interest money is being poured behind these politicians. And unless such politicians take the line of such special interests they will not be re-elected to the United States Congress or Senate. At present in the United Kingdom their Members of Parliament are allowed to take extra money from special interest groups as long as they declare that special interest. Therefore, if an oil company approaches an MP in the United Kingdom and says: we will pay you an extra £5,000 a year as long as you support us in legislation, that is all right as long as he declares that interest. I would not like to see the day that we, in this Legislature, would have to depend on outside monies to remain here. A step has been taken in the direction of ensuring that we operate as an independent Oireachtas, independent in the sense that we will be enabled to remain in office, without outside support.

I shall not delay the House any longer. I was somewhat disappointed the debate did not commence until 8 o'clock. I presume it will continue until such time as each Stage is passed irrespective of the time and that anybody who has anything to say on any Stage will be so allowed.

First of all I should say categorically that the Fine Gael Members of the House believe very strongly that the increase proposed is justified, and well justified. I have a number of points to make which I should like to read into the record of the House, not in the expectation that they will be reported to the public, because they may be too accurate to be reported, but in the hope that some future generation looking at it may at least realise the contrast between the hysterical outburst in the media and the reality of life in the year 1983. Many of the points I have to make will come back to the irresponsible and undemocratic nature of the response which these increases provoked among those people I would normally expect to call my friends in the media. However I am strengthened in my desire to criticise them by the fact that their friendship for me never in any way inhibited them from criticising me should the occasion arise.

The hysteria which greeted the increase in the parliamentary allowances of 19 per cent, or a fraction under 19 per cent, ignored a number of essential facts. I propose to go through those facts briefly so as to place them on the record of the House. It was suggested in newspaper article after newspaper article and in comment programmes on the electronic media that, in some way, this increase was a massive one which more than compensated Members of the Oireachtas for the increase which had taken place in inflation since June 1981. Irrespective of who has been in power since June 1981, inflation had increased here between May 1981 and August 1983 — which are two dates nearest to the dates in question — by a sum equal to 36 per cent. It should be clear to everybody in this House that even the granting of these increases will leave the Members of Parliament contributing substantially to the problems of the country, just as have other people in secure employment over the same period. However other people have been compensated for these things by regrading and other similarly based increases. Such a prospect or option is not available to politicians.

The second point with which I want to deal is that the tax-free amount has given rise to a considerable amount of adverse comment. Of course it is right that it should give rise to adverse comment. But the adverse comment to which it should give rise is from the parliamentarians and not from the general public. The tax-free amount, which is included — and which is decided by the Revenue Commissioners as being the appropriate amount to be deducted from the allowances of Deputies and Senators before they are taxed — is based on their calculations of what are the additional unrecouped expenses of Members of the Oireachtas over and above their recoupable allowances. It was the calculation of a responsible officer in the Revenue Commissioners that half a parliamentary allowance in the case of a TD, which before this Bill stood at £13,802 approximately, constituted expenses incurred by him or her arising directly out of his employment necessarily incurred in the performance of that employment and, as such, were capable of being allowed just as they would be allowed if they arose in any other similar situation.

The suggestion is that these expenses were, in some way, arrived at a long time ago. If they were, the expenses of a TD or Senator have more than kept pace with the increase in the basic parliamentary allowance. To put the matter in its proper perspective let me say that if the parliamentary allowance in respect of a TD — I will deal with Senators later — remained at £13,802, if only 25 per cent of that allowance was deemed to be genuine expense incurred under the heading of "non-recoupable expenses" their true level of parliamentary allowance, prior to this current increase, would be £11,000. That is £11,000 on which they were fully taxed. That is incapable of being challenged.

I do not want to interrupt the Senator but there is a division in the other House. The usual procedure is to adjourn for 15 minutes.

I am quite happy to go ahead. I am not trying to impress the Minister.

The Senator does not have to.

I am in the hands of the House.

I have no objection to the Minister going. He can go and I will continue on.

The Minister might not be missed in the other House.

Getting away from that tax free amount, I did an exercise at the start of the year which was of considerable interest. Each Member of the Seanad received the State Directory for 1983 which was published by the Department of Public Service for which the Minister is responsible which gave by name in many cases and, if not by name by category, the people employed in the public service sector. I went through that book and I sought to identify the people who, at the top of their salary scales, had in excess of the amount of money which a Deputy was then receiving. The total number of people in the public service, not including semi-State bodies, not including local authorities, on 1 January who had salaries which at the top of their scales would have exceeded the allowance of a TD — not of a Senator but a TD — was 4,213. In addition, a minimum of 22,000 teachers employed directly or indirectly by the Department of Education, that is not the total employment, that is my calculation, were on salary scales which, because of the various allowances they were getting, were in excess of the salaries paid to TDs. It is well that this House should understand, and it is well that those who criticise Members of this House and Members of the other House should understand the relative remuneration which Members of this House are receiving. They should also remember that half of that remuneration is to recoup them for expenses which they incur which cannot be recouped from other sources.

I have a list here with which I will not bore the House — but I will be pleased to supply it to any Member of this House — of each section of the Civil Service. For example, in the Office of the Revenue Commissioners 497 such people were on salary scales which were in excess of a TD's salary. I was afraid to count the number of people who were on salary scales in excess of a Senator's salary. I would not insult the House by making that comparison.

Probably from messengers up.

In the Department of Posts and Telegraphs there are 393 such people.

Categories or people?

People, 393 people who are on top salary scales in excess of the basic allowance of a TD. The Minister, no doubt, will be interested to note that there were 108 such people in the Department of the Public Service.

What about the Department of Finance?

When we think of those 22,000 teachers — I do not grudge them their pay; they are entitled to it — we can put the parliamentary allowances into that context. It is about time Members of this House and the other House stood up for themselves because, if we cannot speak up for ourselves, then we are not much good at speaking up for other people.

Senators

Hear, hear.

I should like to mention the response of the newspapers in this regard. I should like to refer to two newspapers in particular. I read The Cork Examiner because I was lucky to be born in a city as beautiful as that. The way in which that paper reported the increases was nothing short of scandalous, a scandal to the truth and an abuse of the freedom which they have under the Irish Constitution. I will defend their freedom to do it, but it is an abuse of their freedom.

I took the trouble to examine what kind of increases The Cork Examiner themselves had got in the appropriate period of time. I found out that as and from 1 June 1981 the price of The Cork Examiner increased from 17 pence to 18 pence. In September 1983 it was 35 pence, representing an increase of over 90 per cent. I know what they will say: it was VAT. It was not because, exclusive of the VAT element in both cases, the amount of money which the proprietors of The Cork Examiner were taking from their readers increased by 76 per cent in this period of time. These are the people who have the cheek to talk about parliamentarians increasing their allowances by 19 per cent. How dare they abuse the privileges which the people have given them.

Senators

Hear, hear.

In addition to that, a journalist in The Cork Examiner, writing under a name which I will not identify because it might not be fair, but anybody who wants to read The Cork Examiner of 3 November 1983 will be able to identify that journalist——

What page?

Page 7, the top right hand side. He said that a Cork TD driving to and from Dublin will now be entitled to collect more than £160 assuming that the allowance which was payable in respect of the first 2,000 miles and the second 2,000 miles was available throughout the year for a TD or for a Senator. That is a direct untruth. It is typical of the way in which this paper is abusing the truth in recent times.

Similarly, the bleating of The Irish Times had to be seen to be believed. I will take a lot more notice of their leading articles of 2 November and 3 November when the gentleman who writes it puts up at the top of the leading article his present salary and what his salary was in June 1981. It is reasonable to ask why are the newspapers adopting this approach? This is a very serious point for this House. They are adopting it because they are naturally a cynical breed of people anyway. I suppose that is their job, to be cynical and to be critical. Some of them, not particularly in the written medium, are doing it because they have a Marxist analysis of society and they want to overthrow the kind of society we have at present. The capitalist element are doing it because they are in the middle of a campaign of unremitting pressure on politicians from all parties to have VAT removed from newspapers. That is the kernel of their argument. If VAT was removed from newspapers there would not be the same degree of criticism as there is at present, and that is the reason. They are a pressure group like any other pressure group and should be treated in the same way — the merits of their argument weighed but the amount of their pressure discarded.

Other Senators, Senator Lanigan in particular, mentioned two points I wanted to bring out myself in conclusion. First of all, it is important that the quality of public representation should be maintained, and it is important that this should not become a rich man's club. In the Seanad, to a greater extent even than in the Dáil, we are searching for an identity. There are Senators in this House who, because of their professions have effectively become full-time parliamentarians even though I accept that it was probably not intended that Senators should so become. There are certain jobs, such as teaching for example, in which it is almost impracticable to give your full attention to the demands of the job, plus the demands of membership of a local authority, and to retain your full-time position. There are others of us who are more fortunate. As Senator Lanigan said, we can just do part of the work we would otherwise be doing and at least preserve some of our outside incomes in this regard.

This is particularly relevant to what I said about the newspapers. If public representatives do not take sufficiently high allowances they will become subject, to an even greater extent and for different reasons, to the influences of pressure groups. It would be a sorry state for this country if our public representatives could not afford to call an election if an election were necessary, or could not afford to make an unpopular decision for fear that it might cause an election. There should be adequate payment for Members of the Oireachtas and for the Dáil in particular in this regard.

I have already mentioned the important and difficult financial position of some people in this House. If we do not maintain the purchsing power, to the same extent as it can be maintained throughout the community, not to a greater extent or not to a lesser extent, but to whatever extent we can maintain it for the general body of people, public representatives may become subject to sinister influences. I should not like public representatives of any political party to become subject to such influences.

For those reasons it is not a question of giving me pleasure because by the time I have paid my taxes there will not be much pleasure in it left for me, it gives me considerable satisfaction in performing a public duty — I really think it is in the performance of public duty — to support the Second Stage of this Bill, which is an important cornerstone of our democracy.

This Bill places Members of this House, and indeed Members of the other House, in a unique position in discussing and then voting on our own allowances and our own terms and conditions. That is one of the reasons why we do not get — and can hardly expect to get in Ireland today — too sympathetic a press. However, I am impressed with the eloquence and vigour with which the provisions in this Bill in relation to allowances for Deputies and Senators have been championed and defenced by my two colleagues. I note that the attendance for this Bill is treble the attendance earlier this afternoon when we were discussing the homeless. I hope at a later stage we will hear equal eloquence and venom in arguing the case of the homeless.

This side of the House did not get a chance to comment on the homeless.

That is true. You are in possession now. I was referring to the attendance listening as well as having a potential opportunity of contributing. However, there is clearly a notable interest in this Bill, given the hour of the evening. Given the hour of the evening, I propose simply to focus on one omission from this Bill which I regard as very serious and unjustifiable.

Would the Senator like to wait until the Minister comes in? He will be here in a couple of minutes.

I am in some difficulty in the sense that my colleague, Senator Ferris, did suggest that I might wait until the Minister comes in. I think the Minister is familiar with at least the background to this issue, and he may arrive while I am referring to it. It concerns the fact that the pension scheme for Members of the Oireachtas contains an overt discrimination which was the subject of a Labour Court determination in May of 1979, in a case which I myself brought as a Member of this House at the time. The discrimination relates to the omission from the pension scheme of any provision for widowers or children of married female Members of the Houses.

Senators

Hear, hear.

It is a very serious omission. The section which would require to be amended is being amended in this Bill. In other words, this Bill actually deals with part of the section which would require to be amended in order to remove that discrimination. I feel very strongly on my own behalf, and on behalf of the other female Members of the Oireachtas, and on behalf of the example we set as Members of the Oireachtas. We still continue an acknowledged and identified discrimination on the basis of sex in the pension scheme for Members of the Oireachtas.

Following the Labour Court determination which was handed down on 7 May 1979, I had correspondence with the then Minister for the Public Service about the steps that would be taken to remove that discrimination. When I failed in the initial attempts through private representations and correspondence with the then Minister and Minister of State, I sought to raise the matter on the Adjournment in this House. I have a letter dated 6 February 1980 from the then Cathaoirleach saying:

Dear Senator

I have given consideration to your request to raise on the Adjournment today the matter of the amendment of the Members' contributory pension scheme to provide equality of treatment for male and female Members in the provision of benefits to dependants following the Labour Court determination of 7th May 1979.

I regret that I shall have to rule that this matter is not suitable for discussion on the Adjournment on the ground that it would involve amending legislation.

For reasons that are standard provisions of ruling that a matter is not suitable for the Adjournment because it requires amending legislation, my motion on the Adjournment was ruled out in February of 1980. Once more I pursued the matter with the Minister of State and Minister for the Public Service at the time. I have a letter dated 15 May 1980 from the then Minister of State, Deputy Seán Calleary. It is appropriate to put this on the record of the House. His letter was as follows:

Dear Mary,

Further to our conversation re Widows' Benefits in the Oireachtas Pensions Scheme yesterday you should now have received a letter from Mr. Gene Fitzgerald T.D. Minister for the Public Service letting you know the up-to-date position.

If there is any other information you need please contact me.

Yours sincerely, Seán Calleary, T.D.

Right enough, I got a letter dated 16 May 1980 from the then Minister for Labour and the Public Service, Gene Fitzgerald, T.D. That letter was as follows:

Dear Senator,

I refer to your claim under the Anti-Discrimination (Pay) Act 1974 that the Houses of the Oireachtas (Members) Pensions Scheme contravened the Act in that it did not provide pensions for the spouses and children of female members while it did provide such benefits in respect of male members, which was the subject of a Labour Court determination on 7 May 1979.

You will appreciate that the developments in regard to benefits for widowers of Oireachtas Members could not be considered solely in their own context; it was obvious that a decision to provide this benefit for the group concerned could have repercussions in other areas of the public service. In the circumstances, the implications for the public service as a whole had to be assessed with care. As is well known, superannuation arrangements comprise a very complex area of personnel management and, inevitably, some time was needed for thorough examination.

The Government have now decided to make provision for the spouses and children of female Members of the Oireachtas. My Department is in touch with the Parliamentary Draftsman's Office on the question of amending Section 6A(a)(i) of the Oireachtas (Allowances to Members) Act 1938 and the Oireachtas Scheme itself. Any necessary consequential action will be taken at the earliest suitable opportunity. Meanwhile, any actual case which might arise can be dealt with administratively.

Yours sincerely, Gene Fitzgerald.

That was a letter dated 16 May 1980 assuring me that the Government had decided to make provision for the spouses and children of female Members of the Oireachtas, and that the Department of the Public Service had been in touch with the Parliamentary Draftsman's Office to amend a section that we are proposing to amend in this Bill, in other words a matter which comes fully within the jurisdiction and terms of reference of this Bill. I fail to understand why, in the range of measures being covered by the Bill, that particular identified discrimination is not being removed.

To give Senators the precise background to the Oireachtas pensions scheme and the very simple amendment which would remove the discrimination I refer to the fact that section 4 of this Bill provides for an amendment of section 6A of the Oireachtas (Allowances to Members) Act, 1938, an amendment to section 6A which also governs the discriminatory pensions scheme for female Members of both Houses. That section 6A was in fact inserted into the 1938 Act by two subsequent Acts. The first of these was the Oireachtas (Allowances to Members) and Ministerial and Parliamentary Offices (Amendment) Act, 1960. Section 5 of that Act inserted a section 6A, relating to a pensions scheme and deductions for contributory pensions scheme for Members.

It was a later Act, the Oireachtas (Allowances to Members) (Amendment) Act of 1968, which dealt with the provision for widows and children of Members. That Act extended section 6A by subsection (6) and provided that the section would provide "in relation to deceased persons who were Members of the Oireachtas for pensions for their widows and children". This is the section which grounds the present scheme. The present scheme is the Scheme for Contributory Pensions for Members of the Oireachtas. It is a scheme which was adopted under that legislative provision in 1974, but it is still the scheme that operates, and it defines the term "widow". The term "widow" means the widow of a member or a former member. It provides for the pension for a widow and also a contribution for any children of the widow under the scheme.

What is omitted from that scheme, and what is still not provided for, and what apparently was not thought to be worth including in this measure, is any provision for the widowers of female Members or the children of female Members. It is worth drawing the attention of Members of this House to the fact that in November 1983, if I were to die, or if Senator McGuinness were to die, or if Senator Bulbulia were to die, there is no provision for our widowers and there is no provision for our children, from the pensions scheme to which we contribute an equal amount with male Members of the House. We contribute an identical amount into the pensions scheme. It is not a matter of speculation as to whether it is contrary to law and contrary to the anti-discrimination pay Act. It is a matter of fact. It has been found to be since May of 1979.

It appears that in 1980 the then Minister for the Public Service was in almost daily contact with the Parliamentary draftsman with a view to bringing in an amendment. At this stage, having waited a very considerable time to see the law change, I am prepared to sit a bit late tonight and draft an amendment and propose that it be adopted by this House on Committee Stage. The amendment is a very simple one. The amendment could be inserted into section 4 and would simply read: "...may provide in relation to deceased persons who were Members of the Oireachtas for pensions for their widows or widowers and children". By adding in "or widowers" one provides for the potential widowers of those of us who are female Members. The word "children" would be linked in whether it was widows and children or widowers and children.

It is extremely important that we use the opportunity in legislation already amending the section that I am talking about, to add two words "or widowers" and remove, as I say, an identified and real discrimination which has already been the subject of a determination by the Labour Court in 1979. Clearly legislation is called for because that has been repeated in declining to have the matter raised on the Adjournment and in the letter from the Minister for the Public Service. We can only remove it by legislation. We are amending the section that is relevant to the provision. Therefore it is within the framework of the legislation. That would enable the pensions scheme itself to be revised once the legislation is completed, and budgetary provision could be made for the necessary change in the pensions scheme and the discrimination would be removed.

A Leas-Chathaoirleach, I did not include you earlier when I was talking about the female Members, but obviously you too have a very real interest in this measure. As a female Member of this House you have a particular interest and I hope will support the proposal to introduce a Committee Stage amendment to remove this discrimination which, as I say, has been allowed to continue for a very long time, which is totally without justification, and which substantially affects the provision of existing Members of this House and indeed of Ministers and Ministers of State who are also discriminated against in a similar way in relation to their ministerial pensions. Their widowers and children could not benefit from their ministerial pensions. Therefore it is extremely important that we take the time to improve this measure as it goes through this House.

Well done.

I do not want to take one iota from the contribution of Senator Robinson, because she has made a very valid and excellent point. I am anxious to hear the Minister's reply to it. It is appropriate that we should put on the record of this House what we feel about this matter. This is the only forum available to us to praise the courage the Minister has shown in response to various demands made on him from the members of the Committee on Procedure and Privileges. This problem has been before us for the past year-and-a-half. I congratulate the Minister on having the courage to bring in the Bill when he brought it in. He brought it in because he felt it necessary. He also had the courage to defend it on the media in the correct terms, and reminded his inquisitive inquisitors that he is giving no more to us than they had already received themselves at the appropriate time.

I was rather resentful of some of the comments from my colleagues in the trade union movement. I call them colleagues because I am a member of a trade union. Some of them actually advocated redundancy when they talked about the abolition of the Seanad. That is effectively what would happen to me. I can only speak for myself. I know many other Members of this House are full-time public representatives, dependent totally and solely on a Senator's salary. They act as local representatives and members of county councils in an unpaid capacity. I hope the Minister will not forget members of county councils who give all of their time to representing their people with no compensation. They have been misrepresented by the media as being on the make. Some people in the other House adopted a holier than thou attitude. If they feel they are not entitled to this increase they do not have to accept it. They can hand it back to the Minister for the Public Service who, I am sure, will receive it and put it into a special fund so that when they become dependent on it that they can use it. That applies to certain politicians who have adopted that attitude for short-term political gain. If they allow themselves to be ridiculed for making that kind of contribution the public will show their wrath at the appropriate time.

I welcome the fact that this legislation does away with the absolutely ludicrous situation that ministerial orders had to be placed before the Houses of the Oireachtas and remain there for 21 sitting days. The day the order was made the media reported that you got an increase and the day it was passed they reported that you had got it again. People thought we got it twice whereas we never got it. Nobody thanked me for forfeiting the last three wage agreements, which the trade unions negotiated for my colleagues in the public service and argued that it was not big enough. I was told by people in the public service, admittedly not the Civil Service, that this was not the appropriate time for this increase. For them it was quite appropriate — they had already received it — but we should not have got it because the public are unhappy about it. One day during the by-election campaign many people spoke about it. On the second day, out of 700 people, two mentioned it, one was a docker, and he was taking home three times more money than some Deputies, so we did not enter into further discussion on the subject.

I commend the Minister because it takes courage to bring in legislation that is unpopular in the public's mind but which in equity is absolutely necessary. We all talk about equity, but we should be prepared to stand up in the House to defend something we feel is justified. The Leas-Chathaoirleach was present at the meeting of the Committee on Procedure and Privileges when we debated this matter for a long time. Nobody wanted more than was rightfully theirs and we all had reservations about the lack of retrospection. Apparently it is unconstitutional not to give the Judiciary their increase, but when it comes to the legislators they can be disregarded. In deference to what the Minister decided, I am prepared to accept that. Because of this legislation, that anomaly will never occur again. I think that is correct. Anybody who cannot justify this increase should not be in public life. If you cannot speak for yourself, you are not in a position to speak for anybody else. I have no reservations about these increases.

I depend full time on my Seanad salary. I have a wife and six children to feed, and if any of my trade union colleagues feel I am overpaid, I am prepared to let them renegotiate my terms so long as they look at my salary as they looked at their own salaries, wages, perks, travelling expenses, cars, and so on. We heard much about Ministers of State having to forfeit their cars. The day this legislation was introduced not one word was said about the Ministers of State who are expected to be at the disposal of everybody throughout the country 17 hours a day.

More some days.

Exactly. For seven days a week. Just because it was the popular thing to do, people got on the band wagon. I even condemned this Government for having kowtowed to that kind of agitation. We should treat our legislators, Ministers and Ministers of State with the respect they deserve, and the sooner we stand up and speak for ourselves the sooner people will realise we are serious about what we are doing. This country could be led into anarchy if we allowed ourselves to be spoken down to by other sections of the community. Members should be independent of pressure groups, bribes or corruption. We should be paid an appropriate allowance to allow us to legislate without being influenced by anybody. Anybody who is holier than anybody else can hand back the increase. I am sure the Minister for Finance, Deputy Dukes, will accept any contributions he gets from Members who feel the increases are not justified.

I join with other speakers who have complimented the Minister on bringing in this legislation which could be described by people outside the House as controversial. In my experience there never has been an appropriate time to bring in legislation granting parliamentary allowance increases. Nevertheless, this House has not retained parity, if that is an appropriate word, over the years. 20 years ago when I first was elected the Seanad enjoyed about 75 per cent of the Dáil salary and that has been eroded over the years.

What the Minister has tried to achieve in this Bill is a step in the right direction. It is rather difficult to understand lots of the criticism, even at organisation meetings of one's own party, being levelled at these increases. In my constituency we have some 80-odd branches and I am expected to try to fit in visits to most of them. Yet people seem to think I should not be paid travelling expenses. That was all right years ago when petrol was cheap, but nowadays one has to travel 40 or 50 miles to a meeting and people do not understand, or perhaps they do not want to understand, that parliamentary allowances or travelling expenses are paid only when Members leave home and travel to this House. Members are not reimbursed for constituency work, nor do they particularly want to be.

I was surprised to read the comments of a few trade union leaders who seemed to support the principle of a wage standstill for Members of the Oireachtas. That is a dangerous wicket to be on, especially in times of inflation. The Government can justly claim that they have come some way in reducing the rate of inflation this year, almost to single figures, and they are to be complimented on that.

I wholeheartedly support Senator Robinson's plea for equality of all Members of this House vis-à-vis pensions. I would like briefly to ask the Minister the underlying reason in section 5 for not following the precedent set in 1972 when changes were made to accommodate office holders in the other House. I should like to compliment the Minister on tackling this problem. It will enable the Members of both Houses to set about their duties on behalf of the public and equip them better to do their work, and in these times it is very difficult to do that.

People complain about the workload and the numbers of Members. The Constitution decided, and the people decided when the State was founded, that we would be a bi-cameral constitutional democracy. That system has served the country and successive generations exceptionally well. There is no other system in the world I would prefer to the democratic system here. There are various amendments to the Constitution that one might think desirable, but the Constitution and the freedom our people enjoy are not to be found in many other countries. Therefore we should cherish, build on and conserve what we have. I do not think there is anything to be gained by setting our Oireachtas allowances at such a low level that only people who are financially sound, and perhaps have considerable private means, can afford to play a role in guiding the destiny of this State. For that reason I believe the Minister has made a significant contribution to the continuation of our system of democratic representation and I compliment him on that.

I refrained from commenting on the Bill until Senator Ferris had made his contribution. In my opinion he made very relavant points for which he must be commended. One has to commend the Minister, Deputy Boland, for the manner in which he is handling this particularly difficult problem, difficult from the point of view that it infringes upon the wishes of the people versus those in the public media. I want to take as an example the alleged round figure of 19 per cent increase described this morning on RTE programme which goes out on Radio 1 from 7.30 a.m. until approximately 10 o' clock. The presenter opened the programme with a laugh at the situation where we, the Members of the Oireachtas, had the right to give ourselves what we wanted.

The dancer?

It is a national tragedy when the cynicism of such an individual is tolerated in the national broadcasting organisation. We have a right to defend ourselves against such people. Recently when a community festival was taking place in a major town in County Mayo he was brought down as MC for the evening and the figure charged was in the region of £1,000. I say that openly and freely here, because we must defend ourselves. I am sure that matter will not be discussed tomorrow morning on RTE 1 between 7.30 a.m. and 10 a.m. because he knows and I know that is the truth. I am not talking about the supermarkets that are opened in the afternoon because it would not suit these people if they were opened in the morning. A politician's phone will ring at 8.30 a.m. or at 12.30 at night, and if he is not there he is considered a bad politician. When I heard Senator Ferris speak I felt it was only fair that not alone should the press section of the national media be dealt with, but the broadcasting medium should be dealt with also. Although I did not hear the programme between 10 a.m. and 11 a.m. I believe, without knowing the facts, that if it did not happen this morning it happened some morning last week. I was not here all last week, but I am sure comments were made on that programme as well. We know the fees that can be charged for opening supermarkets by that person who is so critical of politicians.

I know how difficult this situation is for the Minister and the parliamentarians —that is what we are, whether the media like it or not. I am not here to bash them. I am here to point out facts. I know a fine pressman who got a recent appointment in the south. He is a very respectable, decent man and a friend of mine. His salary is twice mine and his perks include a free house and a free car. More luck and more power to him. The paper employing him was mentioned here this evening. I am delighted he is so successful in his career and I would never begrudge that paper the desire to give employment to people with high qualifications, but on the other hand, I do not think they are entitled to pass judgment on parliamentarians. Generally speaking, parliamentarians have a difficult life.

I liked particularly the point made by Senator Ferris concerning Ministers of State. For a short period I served in that capacity and I will never forget it as long as I live. The demands made on a person in a busy Department are not understood by many parliamentarians, much less by the national media. It was absolutely disgraceful that State cars were withdrawn. I say this particularly because in my county there are two men who have State cars. I do not say this on their behalf but because it is a fact: it is not fair that a public representative should have to travel 2,000 miles a week in his own private car. The Taoiseach and the Government should not have stepped out of line. They should have given as much help as possible to the people who are serving this State so loyally. A politician will be out of public office for just two minutes before he is forgotten. People will quickly forget all the work, all the dedication and all the family disturbances one suffered while serving as a public representative.

Many parts of the Bill are good. On the 7.30 a.m. to 10 a.m. programme this morning there was an interview with a man named Bernard Levin, an internationally known critic. The Minister might not have heard of him before; I had not. I was listening to this programme on my way to the city and Mr. Levin was talking about democracy. He spoke about the great democracy we have where we could have a programme like this and be critical of parliamentarians. In places like Russia — this man's grandparents were born in Russia — they did not have that freedom and there are many other places throughout the world where they do not have this freedom. Mr. Levin made a very fine point. In fairness to him, I am sure he did not meet many Irish parliamentarians, but he stood up for democracy, and for the parliamentary system. I certainly appreciated the comments he made.

A Senator said today that he was very proud to be a dedicated parliamentarian, with no other profession. At the end of the day the only failure in this Bill is that the Minister did not pay Senators enough. It takes a lot of courage to make that kind of statement. These days demands are made on Senators to go to meetings in all parts of the country. A Seanad constituency is very big and he is expected to go not alone through the county but through the province and possibly outside the province as well. There are great demands on the time of parliamentarians, particularly party parliamentarians, and this House is big enough to absorb into its system party parliamentarians as well as those who claim to be Independent parliamentarians.

While the increase is welcome, in my view it is insufficient. I want to make that statement, particularly if I am quoted sometime tomorrow morning between 7.30 and 10 o'clock.

I totally agree with the abandonment of the 21 days, but in his explanation the Minister left out a far more serious matter. If a general election is called after the twentieth day it is "bye-bye" to your salary increase because there are not 21 sitting days. That happened on one occasion and amending legislation had to be brought in, but of course it did not go as far as the Minister does on this occasion and I welcome that aspect. I understand that the present Government do not have a lot of money. That is not altogether our fault, but theirs. Retrospection is being paid only from 1 September. The Government could have done more in that area.

Senator Robinson made a very valid point. I am sure the Minister and the House will help in whatever way they can to facilitate that situation. As a parliamentarian — but not a Member of Dáil Éireann — I would like to compliment the Minister on the paragraph in his speech where he talks about granting the extra 21 days' pay to TDs on the dissolution of the Dáil. I had an experience which I will never forget. I failed to be elected to the Dáil by 26 votes and it was three months before I was lucky enough to be elected to the Seanad. I spent a most expensive four months trying to get elected to the Dáil and having failed that, trying to get elected to the Seanad. While some people might have had the experience of a couple of Seanad elections, I can tell them there is a worse experience. In the past 18 to 22 months I fought five elections, three general elections for the Dáil and two Seanad elections. All these elections are quite expensive. I would like all the national media, from The Cork Examiner to that lovely programme on Radio 1, to try to understand how much those 18 months cost me, and my sources of revenue are very small. I do not think anybody thought I was in such a position of authority that they would offer me a backhander. I never sought it, I would not take it, and I never shall take it.

Senator Lanigan made a very valid point when he said that even the thought of taking financial aid should not come into the minds of parliamentarians. If that happened it would be the saddest day for Irish democracy we could ever witness. As someone who knows what it is like to go through so many elections in such a short period I want to tell parliamentarians that in time they will get their reward because despite what the media say about parliamentarians the public have a special feeling for us. Wrongs will be righted not financially but in many other ways, in a willingness to help, and you will never forget your experiences in public life.

Our allowances, salaries and travelling expenses should always be sufficient to allow us to stand shoulder to shoulder with people in comparable positions in Europe. I am privileged to serve in the Council of Europe and I see parliamentarians from other nations whose remuneration is such that it would be unnecessary for them to seek aid outside of their profession in politics to help them to be re-elected or to stand for election. For Members of the Dáil who may not be successful at a general election, and did not wish to seek a seat in the Seanad, some type of remuneration should be made available to allow them to adapt to society again. Some aid should be made available to politicians when they are forsaken by the public for some peculiar reason, or perhaps for no reason at all. This is thought to repay those who have served this country loyally and well. It is difficult for them to adapt to a non-political life, but to do it without financial remuneration is even more difficult. That should be taken into account in the future.

I wish to thank the Cathaoirleach for allowing me to speak. I hope I have made points that are relevant. I am very proud of my ability to work as a parliamentarian. I am very proud of my heritage in politics and of the fact that I would hope always to be able financially to keep my head high in politics and be above any suggestion by anybody — no matter who it might be — that we would have to turn to other places for financial help to continue in political life. It is fundamental that any Government understand that and the cynicism expressed on the national broadcasting stations should be dealt with fairly. This Bill has gone a long way in the right direction but there is still a lot to be done. If we are not proud of ourselves no one else will be. If we do not take care of parliamentary democracy nobody will thank us.

It was not my intention to contribute on this Bill but lest it be seen that the debate is not balancing, that one side is taking more blame than the other, I will offer to speak. I congratulate the Minister for doing what other Ministers have failed to do and for having the courage to do what should have been done long ago. At the end of October we were watching a particular Ard-Fheis and I noticed the words "courage to succeed". The Minister here this evening certainly has the courage to succeed.

When I heard Senator O'Leary speak tonight I came to the conclusion that he too has the courage to succeed. He was positive in his attitude and rightly condemned those who have criticised the increases for Members of the Oireachtas. If we do not defend ourselves then nobody else is going to do it. Mention has been made tonight of the taking away of cars from the Ministers of State. That to me was a retrograde step and will be forgotten about in a short time. If we were members of a trade union we would not have to wait two-and-a-half years for an increase in remuneration. We are now suffering a permanent loss of almost £1,500 per annum.

I welcome the increase in travelling allowances. They have been a disgrace up to now. It is only right that we are put on the same level as civil servants in that regard. I found that in respect of going from Athlone to Mullingar for county council meetings, I was getting more than I am getting in respect of coming to meetings of this House. In addition, one always meets people here in Leinster House who must be entertained by way of meals and drinks. Therefore, congratulations to the Minister. We should defend ourselves. I support what the Minister has done.

There is no doubt that politicians have a lousy job. They are treated with derision by sections of society who by and large are vastly better paid than are the politicians whom they deride. These are people who insist on a level of travelling expenses for themselves — I refer to the media — which most politicians would regard as luxurious. I doubt if there is any journalist in the country who would agree that £27 is a decent allowance for an overnight stay away from home. However, there are questions that should be asked about our allowances, particularly in regard to this House.

Senators are aware that there has been a reduction in living standards but why should all of us in this House be entitled to an adjustment in our income from politics when many others are not so entitled? Why are we more important than everybody else? Why are we more in need, and in particular, why should people like myself who have considerable incomes from activities outside this House — and there are many people, apart from myself, who have substantial incomes well in excess of Senatorial salaries — have a particular claim on an increase of this magnitude? I do not intend in headline-grabbing fashion to oppose these increases. I know there are Members of this House who are in considerable financial difficulty. Even by comparison with average industrial earnings Senatorial salaries are not enormous but there are many of us who do not particularly set a good example of restraint and concern if in addition to substantial incomes from outside politics we quite happily accept this scale of an increase.

I hope that never again will we as politicians either accept or have imposed on us a restraint in the area of income which we then feel obliged to compensate ourselves for at a later date. I agree fully with the Minister in his proposal to link political salaries to increases in the public service in future.

On the question of travelling expenses, I do not know whether the mileage allowances that are allocated to us are generous or otherwise because I do not claim travelling expenses on the basis of a milage allowance. I travel by train in respect of which I claim public transport travelling expenses.

By plane?

He started off by plane but has dropped a bit.

When it was necessary for my political business I travelled by plane. I claimed the air fare and it was paid for me by the Department of the Public Service. If my travelling expenses by that mode of transport were not paid I would not have travelled by plane.

We must seek to have an airport in Tipperary.

We claim in these Houses to try to give leadership but at times of considerable hardship in our society and of considerable pain and suffering by many people, we would need to be very careful about our standards and values. How many Members of this House or of the other House actually are entitled to the mileage allowances they claim? I would like to believe that quite a small proportion of the Members of the two Houses actually claim expenses on the basis of their usage of public transport. A number of less than ten was suggested to me. In other words everybody else, apart from about ten Members of the two Houses, claim mileage allowances.

I do not think that statement is fair.

It is not fair.

Perhaps the Minister can correct me. Somebody must have the figures.

The only figures are the ones submitted by the Members concerned. What you are saying is that somebody sent in wrong forms or something like that.

I am wondering if there are Members who travel by public transport but who claim two mileage allowances.

I do not know but I do not think so.

If you say that this is not the case, I will simply accept that but I would say that those of us in this House in particular who have substantial earnings from outside politics have good reason to ask ourselves if there is a good reason for our getting a substantial increase in salary. Could it be avoided by an adjustment in our taxation procedures or something like that? Is there not a good case to be made for expenses being allowed on the basis of documented expenses? I get quite an excessive allowance for expenses in connection with the Seanad in terms of the amount of expenses I have. I know there are Members in this House whose expenses are so enormous that if they were properly compensated for them, they would virtually receive as much again as their entire salary. That is as it should be, but that is a much more credible position to adopt than a blanket concession of a 50 per cent expense allowance for everybody. There are people here who have enormous expenses, who could document those expenses, and who could justify having virtually their whole salary accounted as legitimate business expenses.

On a point of order, a number of allegations have been made against Members of both Houses of the Oireachtas. We heard at the beginning of this session that we were supposed to be earning £750 a day. It was quite obvious to Senator Ryan at that stage that he was speaking an untruth. I experienced the situation in which my daughter was told by some teachers that I was earning that amount of money. I would ask the Senator to substantiate any allegations that he is making against Members of this House. They are serious allegations.

It is a pity I have spoken. I would love to have five minutes after Senator Ryan.

I am trying to be reasonable.

The Senator is trying to distort the facts.

All I am saying is that Members of this House and of the other House should be entitled to claim against their salary all the expenses that result from their participation in politics and that the arbitrary reallocation of a 50 per cent allowance is excessively generous to me and extremely unfair to other people.

The Senator can give it back.

Senator Ryan to continue.

To answer the nonsensical remark about giving it back — I will give it back if that is what people want. That does not bother me in the least.

If the Senator has four or five jobs——

I do not live off my Seanad salary. If people would read my election literature they would know my position on that. I am well paid outside of this House.

There are other people here who are well paid also but there are many who are not. This House is a bit different from the other House in that regard. That is what I am saying. Those who are, like Senator Killilea, full-time Senators, ought to be entitled not just to half their salaries as an allowance against expenses but to have whatever legitimate expenses they incur in their practice as full-time politicians allowed against income tax. That is the practice for everybody in any other business or profession. I invite the Revenue Commissioners to have a look at my allowance if that is what people want but I am simply saying that instead of getting ourselves a dreadful reputation in the eyes of the public because of alleged substantial tax-free allowances, which for many Members of this House understate their expenses, we should have a position of having all our expenses documented, certified and legitimised. If they are well in excess of what people are at present being allowed so be it, and if they are, as in my case, considerably less than that, so be it also.

Instead of going around apologising for ourselves let us get to a position of authentic documented expenses. That is the question that has given rise to the major complaint heard in the debate in both Houses. Let those people who have legitimate, large expenses be properly recompensed as they should be, and let people like myself — and I suspect there are a number of others in this House — who do not have that scale of expenses, be appropriately taxed. That would get away from one of the most persistent and offensive criticisms of the salaries and allowances paid to Senators and TDs.

I, too, would like to congratulate the Minister on his courage. Some might call it controversial while others might think it unusual but the Minister said that he is an unusual man. He is, because his predecessors in three other Governments should have done what he is doing here today, but did not for reasons best known to themselves.

I am surprised and disappointed that Senator Ryan should make a speech like the one he has made about the Members of this House. I consider myself to be a friend of the Senators but I cannot stand idly by without reminding Senator Ryan that he is hypocritical in his approach to this matter. The Chairman of the Joint Committee on Co-operation with Developing Countries at their meeting of 11 October 1983 when there was a discussion on meetings, said that there was no doubt in his mind that it was better for Oireachtas committees to try to sit on Tuesdays, Wednesdays and Thursdays after 7 o'clock in the evening. At that time telephone operators are no longer working and Senators and Deputies tend to be slightly freer than at 3 o'clock in the afternoon when a great many of them have a better chance to do their telephoning and their work with their secretaries. Senator Ryan replied that if the committee sat on Tuesday evenings he would not be able to attend.

The Senator is getting away from the Bill. I have given him an opportunity to make some reference to Senator Ryan.

The Senator went on to say that he had domestic commitments and many other commitments that had been arranged on the basis that his normal week in Dublin was Wednesday and Thursday. He said that he could not attend meetings of the committee on Tuesdays.

He said he was not a whole-time politician. He was quite fair about it.

The point is that people on both sides of this House give priority to the business of the House and put aside other business priorities.

That is a matter for themselves.

If they put their business aside Senator Ryan should put his aside, but if he does not feel like doing so, he should not be critising people who do.

Senators

Hear, hear.

I am surprised and disappointed that Senator Ryan should bring a debate that was at a high level down to a very low level and cast aspersions and reflections on Members of this House.

Most of the hysterical criticism in the newspapers was not contributed by the political correspondents in this House. They who have knowledge of the workings of this House and who know what goes on did not write any of those articles. Some of the leading articles were written by men sitting in centrally-heated and Persian-carpeted offices, behind mahogany desks with a row of telephones on one side, a row of bell pushers on the other and a blonde secretary——

That was better not said.

I should like those people who have ridiculed us to state what their salaries are. Would they have waited until now for the three increases totalling 19 per cent? If they told us that they had foregone these increases in salaries and expenses I would be prepared to listen to them. It is time the hypocrisy stopped and that the facts were faced.

We can have the facts without having scandal.

I would like to say, to the leader writers of the papers that notwithstanding all the perks they enjoy they do not have to face the electorate every three or four years. Unfortunately for us in the last two years we had three elections. Those elections cost a lot of people a lot of money but after all that, there were some who were not fortunate enough to be elected. The ordinary Member of this House, if he is doing any of the work of this House at home, faces a telephone bill of between £300 and £400 every three months.

Senators

Hear, hear.

That is £1,200 that he is not going to get back. He will not get any rebate in that respect from Senator Ryan or from anyone else.

The Senator dealt fairly well with Senator Ryan.

Any representative of any mickey mouse company in this country who is earning £7,000 or £8,000 a year has a company car. We do not have company cars and if one were a bit higher up in the bracket, not only would one have a company car but also a chauffeur. I would like to put it on record, too, that I consider the removal of the cars from the junior Ministers to have been a mistake. If it had been properly costed it might never have been done because it will cost the State far more in terms of expenses relating to the use of private cars.

That has not much to do with the Bill. My car has been withdrawn, too.

I am talking about the conditions of the people in this House. I am talking about the salaries and expenses they are supposed to get, the bonanzas. There are very few people here who are engaged in other businesses and who could not earn far more money for half the work they do in this House. Having regard to an ordinary tradesman's wages and what would be his payment for overtime if he were to work the hours that we put in, there is not a tradesman who would not be earning more than the Members of this House are earning. In addition, when one is a Member of this House, there is not a charity that has not his name on a mailing list. Shamelessly they look to us for help, but I suppose they find it necessary to do so. If the Senator does not respond he is earmarked for a future date. Football clubs or other committees who are running functions expect us to buy tickets. These tickets can cost up to £30 or £40.

I attended a dinner last weekend. I was presented with a ticket which cost £15. If two people were attending, the cost would be £30 and then one is expected to put his hand in his pocket and spend so that he might be minus £70 or £80 for the night. There is nothing about that. If, as has been said by other people, we do not stand up for ourselves here, how can we be expected to stand up for anybody else? If people are relying on us to do the right thing for the country and for them when the time arises, how can we succeed if we cannot do the right thing for ourselves?

I am afraid that, quite inadvertently, the Leas-Chathaoirleach seems to have put me in a difficult position. Senator Daly said I had claimed here previously to be an unusual man. Far be it from me to make such a claim. I did say last week that I like doing unusual things and that was in response to some remark made by the Leas-Chathaoirleach.

I should like to thank the House for the general support it has given to the provisions of the Bill. I appreciate the fact that Senators have taken the opportunity to place on record their support for a measure which the Government felt was not only necessary but overdue. I have taken careful note of the points made by Senator Lanigan and Senator O'Leary and I would like again to apologise to the latter Senator because I had to leave the House temporarily to attend a division in the other House.

Senator Robinson raised a point which she has pursued previously in another place. I am rather taken aback to find myself twice within a week in the Seanad discussing matters relating to the male and female genders. I might say at the outset that I ommitted to deal with a point she raised last week when she suggested that I had said in the other House that the person occupying the position of Ombudsman may be a person of neither gender. Anybody who would be chosen to occupy the position of that office would be required to have very special qualities. I have made that clear on a number of occasions. However, to manage to achieve the status which I appear to have conferred upon this being, according to the official record, is neither possible nor accurate. I am afraid there was a quirk of a gremlin or undistinguished effects somewhere between the reporting of my remark as either gender and the eventual translation into print. Perhaps it was merely a typographical error.

The point which the Senator raised today is one of a more substantial and fundamental nature. The House will recall that Senator Robinson raised with, I think, The Employment Equality Agency, the question of whether the Members' pensions scheme was discriminatory in that it appeared to provide for the payment of pensions to the spouses of deceased Members only in so far as widows of Members are concerned and that in that way, it was discriminatory against the spouses of female Members who might subsequently die. It was rather a morbid and morose scene that the Senator painted this evening when she invited the House to consider the untimely and sudden death not only of herself but of Senator McGuinness and Senator Bulbulia. All that at one stroke would be a serious blow to the contributions to this Chamber. Then some minutes later she joined, by way of invitation, the Leas-Chathaoirleach to participate in this journey, I began to fear for the safety, health and longevity of the Members of this House. I think, however, that the position is less serious than the Senator may have feared.

Following on action which she took some years ago and of which she reminded the House, advice was taken at that time by my Department and by the Minister at the time, Deputy Gene Fitzgerald. The advice then from both the Attorney General and the parliamentary draftsman was that because of the capability of applying the Interpretation Act, 1937 to the Act as it stands, and the fact that the Act as it stands uses the term "deceased persons", it can be interpreted as applying equally to widowers of deceased Members as it applies to widows, which is the word used within the section, and the one which the Senator found offensive and possibly worrying.

Notwithstanding that, I referred to this matter in the other House because of the Senator in particular I would prefer to deal with this more substantially on Committee Stage. However, if Senators would refer to section 4 of the proposed Bill and its proposed amendments of the Act of 1938 as subsequently amended, they will find that the intention of section 4 is to allow a situation whereby, unlike previously, it will be within the power of the Minister for the Public Service to make a new scheme, in other words a new pension scheme, or to amend a pension scheme from time to time as the need arises. I pointed out on Committee Stage in the other House — at column 1523 of the Official Report for 3 November 1983 — that it would be my intention when this Bill was enacted, in the making of any amendments and consequently the making of a new scheme through the implementation of section 4 and the consequential substitution of the subsection, as set out in section 4 of the main Act, to include in the amended pension scheme a provision which would clarify, once and for all or perhaps copperfasten what is understood to be already the legal position because of the application of the Interpretation Act.

Senators and Deputies generally may rest assured that because of the interpretation of the Attorney General and the draftsman on the Act, as it stands, and because following the passage of this Bill it would be possible for the Minister for the Public Service to amend the scheme, and that it is my intention, in its amendment to specify that the scheme apply to widowers as well as widows, the matter raised by Senator Robinson has been dealt with. I went to the trouble to draw the attention of the other House to this fact because of my knowledge of the Senator's particular concern relating to this matter.

References were made by different Senators to the criticisms of this Bill since it was announced a little over a week ago. Those of us who are in public life should realise that it is an occupational hazard of being in politics that criticism will be voiced against virtually anything one does. I do not think that criticism should deter public representatives from doing what they feel to be correct as long as they also feel that they can justify what they are doing, that what they are doing is necessary, fair and equitable. In the formulation of this Bill I had the endorsement of the Government to approach the matter on this basis.

All we are doing in this Bill is to restore the salaries and allowances of Members of the Oireachtas to their pre-June 1981 position. We did that on the basis of adhering to the recommendation of the independent review body's report in October 1979 and, indeed, their earlier recommendation in 1972 when on each occasion they recommended strongly that, once they had established the level at which Members of either House ought be paid, that level in comparability terms, ought be maintained through the regular application of national or general round increases which apply to the Public Service. That would ensure that the position of Members of the Houses visà-vis other groups within the Public Service would not go askew once again, leaving them in a situation — as the review body found when last they were convened in 1978 — where they had to spend an inordinate length of time endeavouring to establish once again where, in the relative order, the Members of the Houses ought be because some national pay provisions between 1974, when the 1972 committee reported and 1979, when some national pay provisions had been applied to Members and others had not. What we have endeavoured to do is to restore Members to the position recommended by the Devlin review body.

Senator Ryan asked in this respect why he should get a certain level of Seanad allowance, why a Member of the Dáil might get, or ought get, a certain level of allowance. The answer is — and I think it is the correct answer — that it is a reasonable procedure for the Oireachtas to invite an independent body to adjudicate upon the appropriate levels of salary that ought be paid to Members of Parliament as they adjudicated on, at the same time, in relation to the remuneration of senior executives throughout the public sector. Mind you, it might possibly be argued by Members of this House in particular that perhaps, because of the level of payment of Members of the Seanad, it was inappropriate that their allowances ought be reviewed in the context of a review body on higher remuneration. The Seanad allowance is not comparable in any way with any of the other allowances or salaries considered by the review body. They consider mainly the salaries of chief executives and other people at very senior managerial level. However, because of the unusual nature of Parliament it was felt that it was correct that the Members of Parliament ought have their salaries reviewed by this body and that is the position.

Senator Ryan made a very fair contribution. He pointed out that there were those like himself — I hope I am quoting him accurately — who had considerable or substantial other income. I think they were the two words which he used. That being the case, he wondered whether he was entitled to a level of allowance such as Seanad Members get at present, which is £7,619 — because of the failure to revise it since 1981 — or which will rise to £9,127 following the passage of this Bill. The simple fact of the matter is that that is the level, adjusted for national pay agreements and Public Service pay agreements, which the review body suggested in 1979 Seanad members ought be at.

I do not think it is the obligation of the Government or the Minister for the Public Service of the day to endeavour to distinguish as between Members of the Seanad or of the Dáil which Member ought to be paid more than the other. Their constitutents elect them to these Houses and have the same expectations from each of them. Their performance afterwards, their work rate, their ability, or the way in which they perceive their duties presumably is a matter between themselves and their electorate. But if the Parliament or the Government were to endeavour to distinguish between the levels of payment to be paid to various Members of a Parliamentary Assembly — all of whom are theoretically at least assumed to be performing the same function — then we would be embarking upon a very dangerous road.

As I pointed out in the other House, there are very many people who are elected to that House also who have substantial other incomes and commitments. Obviously there is a higher proportion of the other House who are full-time Members than there are in this House. It would hardly be right if the electorate of a particular Dáil constituency, were to be invited to elect people to be paid on a different salary basis, yet requiring the same performance of them. If we are a democracy then we believe in free democratic choice. The electorate at large — in voting in Dáil elections for the return of Members to that House and the specialised electorate which constitute the bulk of the Members of this House — make the choice in the full knowledge that they are electing, and very often reelecting consistently, certain Members who have considerable other incomes, other demands upon their time and other duties to perform. Yet that electorate choose to return those people presumably because they feel they have a particular contribution to offer.

It would have been equally dangerous to have allowed the situation to continue in which salary levels became so derisory that only those of very substantial other means could have continued as Members of either House. That would be dangerous. I am afraid it would be equally dangerous were a method devised whereby a penal or punitive taxation system was introduced so as to discourage the participation of those with other interests or income. Despite all their failings this — and far be it from me to criticise this House having spent so much of my parliamentary career here — and the other House represent to a very marked degree, and perhaps as good as any other forum, a cross-section of the Irish people. Represented here are people from all strands and sectors of society just as does the other House, if not more so. That is as it should be. It would be a poor Parliament indeed if this House were composed entirely of people who were university, or third-level lecturers: who were full-time Senators; who were publicans; who were unemployed or who were retired. If all of the Members of the House came from one grouping, or from restricted groupings, then the House would not, and could not, accurately reflect the views and aspirations of the people. Consequently, there has to be a provision whereby those of no substance, and those of independent means will have equal opportunity for election to the House. We hear much about our taxation system. I would have thought that the general suggestion was that the Revenue Commissioners had a system in operation whereby, if there was surplus income available to any one person paying PAYE — as does each Member of this and the other House — that that system would ensure that quite an amount of that surplus would be taken and redistributed. That is as it should be. But it is not for the House to begin to endeavour to to distinguish between one Member and another as to the level of salary he or she might be paid. I have thought about this matter for a long time and that is the conclusion to which I came ultimately.

Senator Ferris talked about Members who might feel that for one reason or another they did not want to take these increases which are merely the belated provision of the public service agreements, without retrospection. He suggested that if there are Members who do not want to take the increases they ought to return them to me, that I would insert them into some fund which could afterwards be used for the distressed and disadvantaged dependants of these Members who apparently he seemed to think might fall upon hard times in the future. Listen: I will provide; they can divide. If they want to assign a certain amount of their allowance to whatever purpose, if there are Members — as occasionally there appears to be — who feel that they do not need the level of parliamentary allowance which is being paid to them, that they are happy to perform, as they see fit, their duties within either House, they can — and, I am told, sometimes do — assign a proportion of their allowance to whatever charitable organisation or area of good works they feel most appropriate. That is a matter for them. But I do not think I should be invited to participate in a system which I get back postal orders every week from different people because they feel that they over-endowed with the riches of this world.

The Minister's colleague, Deputy Dukes, might oblige.

I should like to thank Senators McDonald, Fallon, Daly and Killilea for their contributions. Senator Killilea referred to two matters in particular, bringing those of us who do not have the opportunity of listening to Radio Éireann in the morning up-to-date with his particular version of what was said on the radio this morning. I have no reason to doubt the accuracy of his reportage. It must have been an interesting programme indeed. Senator Killilea suggested that, in his view, perhaps we did not pay Senators quite enough. Perhaps that is a legitimate point for him to make. The point I would make, in return, is that we are doing no more than restoring the salaries and allowances of Members of this House to the level recommended by the review body. Presumably, in the relatively near future the review body will meet once again. On the basis of their recommendations they are rather overdue to meet to carry out a review of the salary holders within its general area of responsibility. At that time, if that happens, Senator Killilea will have the opportunity to make — to what I regard as being the appropriate body — the appropriate case in relation to Members of the Seanad.

The Senator referred to the provision whereby the future intention is that Dáil Members on the day of dissolution would recieve an amount equivalent to one-eighteenth of their annual salary. This is an important change. I intend also, in conjunction with that, when I amend the pension scheme following the passage of section 4 of this Bill, to provide for continuing pensionability during the periods of dissolution. Some of us who have been Members of the Houses for some years can recall cases where Members fell short of qualifying for a pension by some few short weeks. Those few weeks were less than the aggregate of the amount by which they had lost pensionability because of their having fought several general elections. I am not aware of any particular case where that has happened in the recent past. I need only invite Members to consider the parliamentary instability of the last two years, when we had three general elections within 18 months, to consider how very difficult it might have been for a Member were he or she to have lost his or her seat in one of those elections as well as having lost his or her allowance during the period. In fact, the loss to a Deputy who fought those three general elections in 18 months was somewhere of the order of £2,400. They lost something in the region of nine weeks pay during the course of those 18 months. After the third election were a member to discover that he or she had lost his or her seat and did not qualify for pension by a period of less than nine weeks, such a member would have a very legitimate grievance. For that reason I am also providing that a Member who may lose his or her seat or retire, with less than the minimum period for qualification of pension, will have the right to claim a refund of their pension contributions. That is a pretty standard provision in most other pension schemes. I hope that will be regarded as equitable.

Senator Killilea urged that the Government might have considered the question of making severance payments to Members who either resigned or were defeated. I have a great deal of sympathy with this point of view, as did the review body. They suggested that that might well be considered. It is, however, a rather complicated matter to consider. The question first arises as to whether those who are retiring or those who are defeated ought receive severance payment. Because of our unusual system of proportional representation and the manner in which candidates are selected a situation would arise in which candidates with little chance of success might feel obliged to stand so that they could point to their certain defeat as a reason for claiming severance payment afterward. For one reason or another the Government decided that at this stage it would not be appropriate to introduce severance payments, no small part of that reason being the fact, once again, that the provisions of the Bill — very often contrary to what has been represented — are doing no more, in the main, than restoring the salaries and allowances of Members to their position of some years ago. To introduce a form of severance payment might well be regarded as a substantial extra benefit.

What I have done is to say that I will amend the pension scheme. At present Members who qualify for pension are entitled to payment of a pension based on 1/40th for each year of service, providing they have served for eight years and, consequently, qualify. In future a Member who retires or is defeated and who qualifies for pension will have the option of having their pension paid on the basis of 3/160ths, rather than 1/40th, for each year of service and the amalgam of the other 1/160th calculated actuarially into a lump sum. In other words, in future a Member will be able to opt for the payment of a lump sum and a reduced form of pension payment if they feel that that is more beneficial to their particular circumstances. That will not result in any cost to the State but at least will allow Members the option of deciding which way they would prefer to have their pensions paid to them.

I might refer once again to the media criticism, perhaps referred to more than was necessary by many Members. As I said at the outset that one must be prepared to accept the slings and arrows of political life, I do not resent any criticism that has been made. If those within the media feel they ought make criticism of these changes, then not only ought they make the criticism but they have a duty to do so. However, they have one other fundamental duty, that is, to make the criticism based on the factual situation rather than — as unfortunately happened in certain cases — on either a misinterpretation or misrepresentation of the factual situation. For instance, to take the allowance paid to Members and add to that some notional figure for travelling expenses, combined with a further national figure for overnight allowances and notional figures based upon the value of secretarial allowances or postage facilities, is to distort totally the manner in which the actual remuneration of Members is presented to the public. To add each of those component elements together and suggest that that is what a Member was being paid was to represent to many people in the general public a figure that was as startling to them as it was really untrue and, I might suggest, equally startling to Members. First, a Member is paid travelling expenses only on the basis of travel incurred. They are paid overnight expense only on the basis of overnight expenses actually incurred. A payment of £27.50 overnight allowance henceforth, judged by any standard of hotel accommodation rates I am told about in Dublin, could not be considered in any way excessive. The mileage rates paid to Members are somewhat in line but I suspect, overall rather less than the "AA" recommended rates. I know them to be rather less than the rates paid to many people in other professions which engage them from time to time in travel and being away from home for a protracted period.

To suggest that the cost of the stamp put on letters issued by Deputies or the cost of their secretary ought to be added on to their allowances is as fallacious as to suggest that the cost of those secretaries or postage ought to be added to the salaries or allowances of the leading article writers about whom Senator Daly spoke. I did not set out to provide in this Bill for Persian carpets, mahogany desks, banks of telephones, or blonde secretaries, as Senator Daly seemed to envisage being fairly standard facilities provided for the writers of leading articles in the newspapers. I rather suspect that that is not the case in relation to them. Indeed the provision of normal facilities for them to carry out their work would not be regarded as part of their salaries. I do not think that the provision of those same facilities to Members of either House, to enable them to carry out their parliamentary duties ought to be interpreted as being part of their take-home pay, or their real income. It is not. It seems to me to be rather an unfair misinterpretation of the situation. Let there be criticisms, certainly — and it is not only the right but the duty of the media to criticise if they feel that any of these changes are unjustified or unsustainable — but please let the criticism be based on facts.

Meanwhile I commend the Bill to the House.

Question put and agreed to.
Agreed to take remaining Stages today.
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