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Seanad Éireann debate -
Wednesday, 16 Nov 1983

Vol. 102 No. 5

International Development Association (Amendment) Bill, 1983 [ Certified Money Bill ]: Second Stage.

Question proposed: "That the Bill be now read a Second Time."

The purpose of the Bill is to authorise a special contribution of £2,076,667 by the Irish Government to the International Development Association.

The Minister for Finance, who is Governor for Ireland of the International Development Association, has asked me to apologise to the House for his inability, because of another commitment, to be here today to introduce this Bill. I am pleased to have been asked to deputise for the Minister, since as Minister of State at the Department of Foreign Affairs I have specific responsibility for Ireland's relations with developing countries in the field of development co-operation and I thus have a special interest in the adoption of this Bill.

The International Development Association was founded in 1960. The association is an affiliate of the World Bank. Like the bank itself, it provides loans to developing countries for investment in suitable projects designed to strengthen their economies and to improve the standard of living of their peoples.

The setting-up of the association was in response to a view that there should be a concessionary arm to the World Bank. It was felt at the time that the bank's normal assistance, which is on virtually commercial terms, could not be availed of to the extent that would be desirable by one important group of its members, namely, the poorest of the developing countries. Such countries required, not loans on commercial terms such as the bank offered and which they would have considerable difficulty in repaying, but loans on highly concessionary terms that would not impose a heavy repayment burden. Accordingly, the association came into being to fulfil this need.

As might be expected, the majority of the banks's members also joined the association which has resulted in a total membership of the association of 131 countries at present. Members are divided into two categories — Part I members, including Ireland, who are developed countries and who number 22; and Part II members who are developing countries and who number 109. Broadly speaking, the Part I members provide the resources to fund the association's activities and the Part II members engage in borrowing from the association, provided that they meet certain eligibility criteria. At present some 50 countries, that is about half of the Part II countries, satisfy these eligibility criteria.

Loans are made by the association direct to governments for the financing of suitable projects in their countries. The overriding criterion for eligibility to borrow is that a country has an average per capita income level of a maximum of 870 US dollars a year, but, in fact, some 90 per cent of the association's lending goes to countries with an average per capita income level considerably lower than this, indeed of less than 475 dollars a year.

Senators might be interested from the comparative point of view to get the Irish figure which for 1982 came to 4,800 dollars. Therefore, 90 per cent of the borrowings goes to countries with a per capita income of less than one-tenth the Irish level. Those of us who feel that we are very badly off in this country might bear that comparative situation in mind. These eligible countries are concentrated mainly in Africa south of the Sahara and in South Asia. I do not need to remind Senators of the continuing problems of extreme poverty that are faced by these regions.

At present the association provides some 3½ billion dollars annually in loans. This makes it one of the largest providers of concessional aid to the poorest countries. The degree of concessionality in the lending terms is certainly high. The loans are provided on an interest-free basis for 50 years. Capital repayments start only after ten years. There is a small administrative charge of 0.75 per cent a year and a fee of 0.5 per cent a year on loan amounts committed but awaiting disbursement. While these terms are extremely favourable, it must not be thought that there is any lack of rigour in assessment of projects approved for financing by the association. On the contrary, the projects must be financially and economically viable. They must meet the same standards of viability as are required by the World Bank itself whose own lending, as I have indicated, is undertaken on commercial terms.

In the association's early years there was a concentration on financing of projects that built up the basic infrastructure of borrowing countries. These projects ranged from railways and roads to ports and power plants. It was assumed that growth would follow from such investment and that, as an automatic consequence of this growth, poverty would be reduced and income disparities narrowed. These assumptions proved to be simplistic. Early efforts at industrialisation failed to generate sufficient employment and resulted in neglect of agriculture. As food deficits increased and balance of payments difficulties mounted, it became clear that agricultural production was indeed a key development priority. In response, the association increased its lending in the agricultural and rural development sectors. At present over 40 per cent of the association's total lending is in these sectors compared to a figure of only about 20 per cent in earlier years. Basic infrastructure of course continues to receive substantial support and accounts for some 30 per cent of total lending. Most of the balance of lending is spread over such sectors as industry, education and health. Finally, about 7 per cent of total lending is not related to specific projects at all but is designed to assist countries in carrying out more general adjustment of their economies.

In addition to providing actual financial assistance, the association also offers policy advice and assistance in building up institutions in the borrowing countries. This role of the association can be of great importance for countries which need and seek independent and expert advice on their developmental problems.

By 30 June last the association had provided 30 billion dollars in loans for 1,280 projects in 82 countries. Demand for the association's assistance continues to be at a high level, and strict criteria of country and project assessment have to be applied by the association in rationing its scarce resources.

Because of the concessionality of the lending, special arrangements are required to obtain resources for the association to finance its lending. By far the most important way in which resources are secured is by periodic replenishments. In these replenishments additional resources are provided on a non-repayable grant basis mainly by the Part I, or developed, member countries to which I referred earlier. A number of the more advanced Part II, or developing, member countries also contribute, on a voluntary basis. The resulting combined number of contributing, or donor, countries is 33.

The donors embrace all the EEC member countries, the Nordic countries, Spain, Portugal, Austria and Yugoslavia in Europe; the other main developed countries such as the USA, Canada, Japan and Australia; Saudi Arabia, the United Arab Emirates and Kuwait in the Middle East; and a number of the larger Central and South American countries. Each donor's share in a replenishment reflects broadly that donor's relative economic strength. The USA, for example, is obviously a most important donor and it assumed by far the largest share, 27 per cent of the total, in the most recent replenishment.

As indicated in the explanatory memorandum circulated with the Bill, Ireland joined the association on its foundation in 1960, and subscribed 3 million dollars to the initial capital. We did not contribute to the first or second of the three-yearly replenishments, but we made a contribution of 4 million dollars to the third replenishment. This was on a voluntary basis, as Ireland was still a Part II member at that time. When Ireland became a Part I member in 1973, it was accepted that this would involve a continuing commitment to contribute towards the association's financing. As a Part I member, Ireland agreed to contribute £3.1 million to the fourth replenishment in 1973, £5.8 million to the fifth replenishment in 1977 and £6.2 million to the latest sixth replenishment in 1980.

I wish to turn now to the particular problem that has given rise to this Bill. This sixth replenishment was negotiated for a total of 12 billion dollars on the basis that this would meet the association's funding requirements for the three-year period from the middle of 1980 to the middle of this year. However, the USA later indicated that, as a result of action taken by Congress, it would have to stretch its contribution to the replenishment over a four-year period instead of the three years intended.

The other donors, including Ireland, sought initially to persuade the USA to revert to three years. When this approach failed to have effect, most of the non-USA donors, including Ireland, decided that, as an exceptional measure and in order to ensure that the association's activity could be maintained at a worthwhile level, they would adhere to the originally agreed three-year phasing of their contributions.

The non-USA donors also decided that they would make additional special contributions in the fourth year, that is, the year from the middle of this year to the middle of 1984. In the absence of such special contributions, the associations's funding for the year concerned would consist almost solely of the remaining part of the USA's contribution — which would imply a drastic reduction below the association's normal annual level of activity. The special contributions will have the effect of extending the sixth replenishment to a fourth year without any additional contribution from the USA. This procedure was accepted reluctantly by donors as being the option least detrimental to the association's operations. It is hoped that after this fourth year the seventh replenishment — currently being negotiated — will come into effect. This would mean that the usual three-year replenishment cycle would be resumed.

Following agreement on the conditions to apply to the special contributions and on the amount to be borne by each donor country participating in the arrangement, the results were incorporated in a report and resolution approved by the executive board of the association. All of the non-USA donors have indicated they they will participate. This will enable the association to maintain its activities over the year at about the annual level of recent years. In general, each participating donor's share consists of one-third of its total contribution to the sixth replenishment. This results in a contribution of £2,076,667 in Ireland's case.

Under the agreed arrangements, the special contributions will be made available through either one of two mechanisms: a Fiscal Year 84 Account or a Special Fund. A donor may choose whichever mechanism it prefers. The association has been informed that Ireland would propose to participate in the Fiscal Year 84 Account. Contributions to that account will add to the general resources of the association and the account is considered by the majority of donors to provide the best means of preserving continuity in funding. The contributions to the Special Fund, on the other hand, will not be part of the general resources of the association. The fund will be a more limited operation parallel to, though administered by, the association and involving initially only seven donors.

As is the case for normal replenishments, donor countries have the right initially to substitute non-interest-bearing demand notes for the amount of their special contribution. The notes, denominated in the member's currency, are to be deposited in one instalment during the year to mid-1984. Cash payments on foot of the notes will arise over the years 1984 to 1992. The rate at which cash payments are called depends on the progress made in implementing the projects financed by the special contributions. Calls in the first two years will be small. The bulk of these payments, in fact, will not fall to be made until the years 1986-1990. Calls on contributors to make payments will be broadly in proportion to their shares in the special contributions.

It is of interest to note in this context that Ireland is making actual cash payments of nearly £2 million to the association in the present year. These payments are on foot of commitments which we entered into in earlier years in respect of the third, fourth, fifth and sixth replenishments. Cash payments will continue to grow in future years. These payments count, as will the payments under the special contribution arrangements, as part of our national official development assistance programme. It is evident that the payments are a significant element in that programme.

Ireland has traditionally been a strong supporter of the association which has been widely recognised as one of the most effective development agencies. The proposed special contributions meet the particular circumstance of a one-year hiatus in the association's funding in 1983-84. In the ordinary course of events, if this hiatus had not arisen, we would be making a contribution this year in any case under the seventh replenishment.

Concern has been expressed in various important international fora about the present difficulties in the financing of the association. It is to be hoped that the USA, which has played a big part in building up the association as an effective aid instrument, will be able to agree on an adequate and speedy seventh replenishment, so as to remove uncertainties about the association's future. The negotiations will be resumed early next month.

It is essential, at a time of recession and of trade and debt problems which have had a particularly serious adverse effect on the developing countries, that the future financing of the International Development Association be placed on a sound footing. The various multilateral financing institutions, especially the World Bank group and the International Monetary Fund, have a vital role to play in promoting financial stability and in helping to foster world economic growth.

My primary purpose today has been to explain the technical circumstances that have made necessary the Bill that is before the House. It is essential, of course, not to lose sight of the basic issues. The long-term aim of the association, and indeed of all well-directed aid efforts, must be the elimination of the poverty and malnutrition that afflict a large proportion of the world's population. The 800 million people who live in absolute poverty are an affront to the rest of mankind. We in this country must, in spite of our domestic difficulties, continue to seek to help the poorest countries within the limit of our resources. In this, our own national bilateral aid programme shares a common purpose with the association, since our bilateral aid is directed towards the poorest. In fact the four countries in Africa on which our aid is concentrated — Lesotho, Tanzania, Zambia and Sudan — are also eligible borrowers from the association.

Monetary assistance is, of course, essential but we in Ireland are well-placed to help in other ways. We can continue to supply expertise and training through the marvellous work of our agencies and personnel overseas. We can also raise our voices in a positive way, on behalf of the developing countries, in discussions in international fora.

There is growing recognition among the international community of the interdependence between the developed and the developing countries. The developed countries have a clear moral obligation to help the developing countries but it is increasingly recognised that it is in the developed countries' own economic, social and political interest that the developing countries be assisted in their efforts to achieve sustained growth. Unfortunately, the North-South dialogue, which provides a framework for discussion between the rich and the poor, has not yet yielded the results in terms of positive action that had been anticipated. The problems are not, of course, confined to aid, but extend also to trade and financial matters. We must continue with our efforts to achieve progress on all fronts.

Finally, may I say that Ireland's basic membership of the association is covered by the International Development Association Act, 1960. As in the case of normal replenishments, the legislation to authorise our special contribution takes the form of an amendment to that Act. I recommend the Bill for the approval of the House.

On behalf of the Fianna Fáil Senators I wholeheartedly welcome this Bill. It has our full support in its passage through this House. The purpose of the Bill, as the Minister of State has said, is to authorise a special contribution of slightly in excess of £2 million by the Irish Government to the International Development Association which is the vehicle through which we give aid to the poorest of the developing countries.

At a time when Cruise missiles are being landed across the water, it is right that we should begin to think more seriously about international problems and the problems that beset so many millions — 800 million people as the Minister indicated in his statement — who live today in absolute poverty. The information that comes back to us through greater world mobility, communications and people who are involved in the missionary fields and in these projects specifically in poor countries and the pitiful situation where up to 40,000 children die every day must ensure that as a small nation and with our history we raise our voice in the strongest possible terms against the disproportionate amount of money that governments, particularly the larger powers, seem to be able to spend on the production of nuclear weapons and armaments and the building up of strategic armaments at a time when there is such a lack of human rights in many different parts of the world. It is only right that we should cóntinue to raise this question in every international forum that is available to us. It is with a sense of hopelessness that one sees these developments take place hand-in-hand with so much deprivation and tension. There may be only a ripple of discontent in some of these poorer countries now but it can grow into torrents and waves which we will not be able to stop in the future unless a more sensible approach is taken by the larger powers in the distribution of their wealth towards trying to eradicate that poverty, not in the sense of a hand-out but rather in the sense of self-help.

It has been quite evident in recent years that world aid to these countries has changed and rightly so: now they are encouraged to develop their own resources. The Minister's statement indicates that the transfer of aid towards agricultural production has been quite substantial in the past ten years. I do not think we will help those countries in the long run by just giving them what is sometimes called conscience money. We must give them the benefit of our own expertise to enable them to develop their own resources and build up their own food programmes particularly in a situation where hunger is so rampant.

If I might digress for a moment, we often hear a condemnation of young people because their views and attitudes are so different from the traditional patterns in rural and city areas. However, in one area the youth of the world and the youth of this country have been to the forefront in enlightening the more adult population and that is on the question of human rights at home and across the world. They have undertaken many projects and many have gone abroad and joined missionaries. This is something which makes all of us very proud. In passing I should like to compliment and pay tribute to the many people involved in this field on our behalf. They do this country very proud and have done so for a long time.

When the Minister is replying, will he indicate whether any thought has been given to having our own training and educational services here, particularly the money which has been used in youth development, geared towards aid in the poorer countries referred to in this Bill? We have at the moment, unfortunately, many people for whom there is no immediate employment in this country and in this way the new technical and educational services could be used to a greater extent.

In relation to the food strategy, it is interesting to see the improvement that has been made in output. The usage of fertilisers and local co-ops and the increase each year in grain output show that a balance between international help and community spirit in the countries concerned has enormous potential for the production of food. The pride in the communities when they themselves contribute more to the solving of their problems is the way forward. I feel that everything we can do in this area to help to develop the self-help notion is the way to approach it. I again welcome the Bill which we can guarantee a successful passage through the Seanad. Unfortunately, because of economic conditions in our own country it is not possible to give even greater aid.

I support the Bill. The circumstances which give rise to the necessity for it were dealt with by the Minister in his introductory remarks. It is worth our while to cast our eyes once again over the reasons behind the necessity for this type of Bill as distinct from what one would expect at this time, an International Development Association Bill which would be in the nature of establishing the seventh replenishment which would be due now in the normal course of events.

First of all, before saying some derogatory things about the United States of America, because it is my intention to do so, I think that one should put in its proper context the help which is being given by this association and by the countries that participate through this association to the least developed countries in the world. It is not surprising that this association does not have many Communist members because it arises out of the World Bank and the International Monetary Fund. By and large, the socialist countries, as they like to be called, are not members of either the World Bank or the International Monetary Fund and dá bhrí sin, as a result of that, they obviously have not participated in the work of the International Development Association.

Nevertheless, it would be only right and proper that we would put on record the negligible amount of aid which is given by socialist countries to the least developed countries, aid which is not tied in with political or military considerations. By far too much of the aid which is given by the western countries is tied into the economic or political manipulation of the countries which are the recipients.

But in this development association there is at least the opportunity to give money which is not tied to support for a particular economic order or to support military alliances. I would wish that the members of COMECON would similarly contribute a similar amount as their contribution towards this kind of welcome aid to the least developed countries in the world. Having said that, I want to refer to the fact that it is a source of great dissatisfaction to many people in this country, and to myself that an attitude of mind appears to have grown up in the United States which has downgraded the importance of the work of the International Monetary Fund and of the World Bank. As a result of that we have problems with regard to the work of the International Development Asociation.

It was my pleasure to visit the United States and Congress before they recessed for the summer of 1983, and the resistance among members to making contributions to the International Monetary Fund, which was an item then under consideration and which would be associated with the contributions which we are now considering, was quite frightening. Those of us who are friends of the United States of America would appeal to them to change their attitude in this regard and to continue to play a full part in these minimal efforts to improve the financial resources which can be made available to the least developed countries on a soft loan basis or indeed on a grant basis.

In that regard I think that the necessity for this strategy is unfortunate: it is unfortunate that the United States have effectively cut their contributions under this heading by one-third, by extending from three to four years the period which their contribution to the sixth replenishment would cover. Added to the fact that the contribution of the United States as a percentage of the total had been dropping anyway over a period of years, it is a serious situation. Part of that drop is due to the fact that other powers, for example Japan and Germany have been increasing their shares to reflect their growing economic strength. Even taking that into account and there are other countries whose percentage has been increasing, like the United Arab Emirates, and other countries with oil-based economies, the United States contribution has fallen dramatically from a position at the founding of this association when their normal contribution was in the order of 42 per cent to a situation when the normal contribution on the sixth replenishment was to be 27 per cent, and that is not in the long-term interest of the western world or of the United States of America.

We should make that point and we should say that we expect our friends in the United States of America to do better than that. We have high expectations of them and we think that this kind of contribution is one which is, in so far as it is possible to do so, the best possible way of distancing a country from the obnoxious connection which there can sometimes be between development aid and support for a particular political system or for a particular military alliance. This system is a contribution towards limiting that problem and therefore countries which are serious about the need to improve the lot of the least developed countries in the world should be encouraged in this regard, They should be encouraged to fulfil their obligations and to increase their obligations.

Therefore, it is really enthusiastically that we the Fine Gael Members in the House support the Government in their determination to ensure that in spite of the failure of the United States to restrict the sixth replenishment to a three-year period and attempt to extend it to a four-year period we are not using that as an excuse to reduce our own contribution to this extremely important work. For that reason I think the House should welcome the Bill and give it an unopposed Second Reading.

Because I did not get a chance to go through the Bill until today, I hope the House does not mind if I read what I have been writing for the last half hour. It is very important that we consider very carefully the contribution of £2,476,667 by the Government to the International Development Association. At this time, right across the world people are questioning the roles being played by international agencies in the help being given to Third World countries.

One has not only to query the amount of aid that is being given but the motives for giving it and the benefits that will be derived by the recipients. According to the 1948 Universal Declaration on Human Rights, everyone has the right to proper nourishment, health care and education. At present it is estimated that more than 800 million people — and this is recognised in the Minister's speech — have these rights only on paper and that number is growing in absolute terms. Most of the world's poorest people live in rural areas and suffer from the effects of malnutrition and associated illnesses. Most of the funds of the IDA go to these developed countries but we note that it is given directly to the governments in those areas at highly concessionary terms.

The Minister's statement suggests that 90 per cent goes to countries with a per capita income of $475 or less and that the association at present contributes some 3½ billion dollars annually in loans. They are one of the largest providers of concessionary aid to the poorest countries and therefore I feel that a thorough examination of the benefits which have accrued from these grants should be made on a formal basis in the very near future. The Minister has admitted that because of the loans granted it had been hoped poverty would be reduced and income disparities narrowed as an automatic consequence, but that the plan has apparently failed.

We have also seen that the funding of the IDA has not been adequate, particularly because of the action of the US Congress in failing to meet its obligations. I agree that at this time of recession the future of the funding must be put on a sound financial basis and that all the multilateral financing institutions have a part to play in this process, but there is equally a very urgent need to query the role played by the multinational agencies in the development of the Third World.

It has been stated over and over that underdeveloped countries should be less and less dependent on outside influences so that they can develop their economies solely for the benefit of their own peoples and that these countries should look more and more to each other for help. There is also a feeling that the misnomer "The Third World" should be dropped and that instead we should refer to underdeveloped regions or countries or areas.

We have seen many figures bandied about but it must be recognised that the bulk of development aid on a world scale comes from Western Europe and the Arab world. In 1981 the financial assistance from the OECD, about 60 per cent of which is Western European, and OPEC, of which 97 per cent is Arab, accounted for $33.5 billion or 94 per cent of the world total. The volume of net disbursements in official development aid from European OECD countries rose between the early sixties and seventies but so did incomes in the industrial countries. Thus, their aid as a share of GNP actually declined. Between 1975 and 1980 official assistance increased, in real terms, at an average annual rate of about five per cent, given the economic and financial circumstances prevailing in Europe, and though this could be considered a fair achievement, however, measured against productive capacity of the UN target of an aid-GNP ratio of 0.7 per cent, the collective aid performance has not improved since 1978. These aggregate aid-GNP ratios mask widely different performances by individual countries during the last decade and though it must be said that we are at the bottom end of the scale, nevertheless we fulfil any commitments that we make, unlike the USA. If they had contributed as promised this Bill would not now be necessary.

It is also noteworthy that in contrast to the Arab-OPEC trend towards geographical diversification and increasing multilateral aid, there is a growing tendency among major European countries and the United States and the USSR to go back to politically oriented disbursements, and this can be seen right across the globe. Recent data from the OECD's Development Assistance Committee show that, for example, in 1978-80, 40 per cent of France's development aid was marked for its overseas departments and territories. The UK allocated an almost equally high proportion to her former territories in South Asia and Africa, and the Federal Republic of Germany gave about 10 per cent of its concessionary aid to one country, Turkey, and more than 25 per cent to a few selected African countries.

It would be futile to try to quantify the allocations of the US and USSR towards politically oriented objectives but quite obviously it is extremely high. In real terms in 1981 the level of concessionary aid given by Western Europe was .35 per cent of GNP, OPEC gave 1.49 per cent and the Eastern bloc gave only .14 per cent, so that there is total disparity in the disbursements across the area. The fact that about two-thirds of world development aid comes from European and Arab countries underlines the impact which future closer Euro-Arab co-operation in this field could have in the general framework of north-south relations.

From a technical and political point of view, it should not be too difficult to go ahead with this co-operation because to a large extent areas or countries which enjoy special attention as to development aid from the Arab or European side overlap. European as well as Arab donors, for example, share a priority for a number of Arab developing countries in the Middle East or North Africa and countries like India, Pakistan, Indonesia, Malaysia, Tanzania and the sub-Sahara Arab countries.

It should not be taken for granted that there are multilateral and common interests among European, the US, the USSR, Arab States and Third World countries. Co-operation must be based on proper foundations if it is to be of any definite use at all. Development remains the most important field of co-operation in view of its importance on the one hand, and due to its impact on the different aspects of life in the countries of the Third World. Third World countries are sometimes called developed, and at other times they are described as underdeveloped or backward because in many fields they suffer from different degrees of backwardness.

It might be interesting to enumerate some of the problems of the Third World countries. The chief one is basically malnutrition. In 1979 the deficit in the necessary amount of grain grown reached 52.5 billion tonnes on a world-wide scale. It should also be taken into account that the seed for much of this grain came from multinational companies which have no idea at all as to what is needed. The Gorta booklet, The Seeds of Disaster, gives a very good insight into the hunger problem in the world. It states quite categorically that a political struggle of immense implications for the future of world food supplies is about to begin and will affect populations in all countries. Basically, what Gorta are saying is that the base of today's modern varieties of major food crops, including wheat, rice and maize, are controlled by a very small number of multinational companies such as ICI and Shell, and it is in that context that the reading of The Seeds of Disaster is recommended to anybody who has an interest in helping out people in the Third World.

Another phenomenon connected with malnutrition shows an increase in child deaths from hunger and the spread of diseases which naturally follow any degree of malnutrition. The increase in the area of desert each year is another major problem. We have no concept of what it is about. I read recently that last year the Sahara Desert increased by over 23 square miles and that is a lot of territory in one year. We also have soil erosion and statistics show that six million hectares of land are lost and turning into desert every year. When I spoke of 23 square miles, it was in terms of last year and when one considers the loss of six million hectares per year from soil erosion one can see that this is a major problem.

Population explosion, of course, is one of the major causes of problems in what is considered the Third World area. The population in this area is growing at a rate which is enormous in comparison to that of developed countries. It is expected that in the year 2000 we will have six billion people in the world and that five billion of these will be in what are now known at Third World countries.

I am reluctant to interrupt Senator Lanigan but there are other people present who are leaving to attend Joint Oireachtas Committees and I just want to clear something in my mind. I presume there is no question of the debate on this Stage being continued now — that it will continue after seven o'clock, after the debate on the unemployment motion.

On the Order of Business today it was ordered that the Private Members' Motion would be taken at 4 o'clock, if not reached then, and that Government business would be resumed at 7 o'clock. The intention would be to resume this Bill rather than to move on to the Intoxicating Liquor Bill. There is a notice of motion for the Adjournment, and that has been ordered for eight o'clock. The hour between 7 p.m. and 8 p.m. will be available for the Bill.

I am grateful to you, a Leas-Chathaoirligh, for allowing me to put this question to the Leader of the House and for his reply. There are several people in the House now, and there are others who are anxious to speak, and it is something which should be borne in mind.

I am not sure if Senator Higgins is suggesting that I should sit down.

I can assure the Senator that it is the extension of the other end of the evening I am interested in rather than the afternoon one.

Sometimes when one gets up, it is very hard to sit down. Sometimes you wish that you had not started. Another area which has created major problems and in which the western world must play a major part is in the spread of technology to Third World countries. It is very noticeable that one of the things that we are inclined to do is to sell products to countries in the Third World but we are not inclined very often to increase their educational ability or to give them the technology which would allow them to help themselves. I was glad to see recently on a visit to the Middle East that Ireland is playing a major part in the spread of technological influence in that the major hospital in Baghdad is now managed by an Irish company and staffed totally by Irish nurses and Irish doctors.

Another major problem that Third World countries have is that many of their university people have to be sent abroad to be educated and many of them stay away. Once they come to the western world they find that conditions are far superior to what they have left. Those people do not feel that they should go back and help to develop their own countries. We have said in this country indeed that many of our highly educated students who have cost the State a lot of money are inclined to do the same thing. One has to look at the situation in the Third World and there is no such thing as comparing like with like if one compares the problems of Third World countries with what would be considered to be the major problems we have in Ireland at present.

There is another problem. When we consider the aid to Third World countries we must look at what the money is being spent on. Are we transforming those countries into consumer oriented countries, trying to catch up with the western world and losing sight of their own abilities to live as an entity in themselves? It would be wrong to send missions abroad to sell consumer items to people who had not got them until they saw them on television, and who until they were introduced to them did not need them.

Because of some of these items I have referred to there is an inherent deficit in balance of payments in many of those countries and there is colossal external debt. We see the World Bank going right through countries of South America at present and find that 90 per cent of those countries have external debt problems and colossal balance of payments problems. It is not realised that these problems would not exist if the industrialised countries and in the main America, had not gone into those countries and given loans for major projects which could not be sustained as it was not within the industrial scope of those countries to repay them. The western world has much to answer for when we look into this matter.

That is another reason why we must look at the manner in which money from the International Development Agency or other multinational sources is used. The main reason for much of the backwardness in the Third World goes back to the colonial domination which imposed a double-sided task on these countries. They were to act as suppliers of raw materials. This can be seen in many countries, particularly in the African sub-continent, where the timber, ivory and the minerals were taken out without benefit to those countries but as a major benefit to the recipient countries, in particular the major colonising countries of Europe, including Great Britain, France, Portugal and Spain. In those countries colonial domination gave rise to dependence on the production of one or a few commodities necessary to the European colonising countries. Then, after gaining independence, the countries of the Third World encountered great difficulties in developing. In particular they had reasonable potential and qualified people, but they were under the control of industrially developed countries in regard to prices, loans and technology.

This situation has led to the creation of unbalanced relations between the Third World and the developed countries and has broadened the gap which separates the Third World from the developed countries. Where does all this lead us to? We must, as I said, look at the situation when we are putting a very small amount of extra money into this fund. We must ask where it is going. A major source of benefit to the Third World is in the area of agricultural development. It has been said in the past that in many of those countries you could put down your thumb and by the time you would have taken it out your thumb nail would have grown. No doubt this is true. One of the problems which those people have is that they have not been educated to use the resources they have.

In the agricultural area, the work that is being done by groups such as Gorta is of more immense importance than sending out moneys through an International Development Association to the government of those countries, because there is no guarantee at all that this money will filter down into the areas where it is most needed. I am glad to say the work of Gorta, which was originally started under the aegis of the Department of Agriculture, has been successful in many areas of Asia and the African sub-continent.

There are many areas in which we could have joint venture projects. There is no point in going into each of the areas where through agricultural development, benefit could be got. In the field of industrialisation we must ensure that if we are going to support industrialisation in those countries it will benefit them directly. Some of the countries of the African sub-continent in the past have had great natural resources but the industrialisation which had taken place did not take into account the natural resources that could be available. Instead industrialisation took place on the basis that the material which was to be used in those industries would have to be imported from the countries which gave the aid in the first place. This is not something that should continue to happen.

I feel that there is a need for much more co-operation in that area. Europe has a responsibility to consolidate the economies of the developing countries and to supply them with modern technology, if this is required, by the interconnection of these interests and those of developing countries and by the joint responsibility of all to establish a developed and balanced world which would enjoy a certain level of prosperity. This is a human as well as a cultural task at the same time.

I do not want to prolong the debate except to say that there is a grave need to help out the Third World, or the underdeveloped world, or whatever we like to call it, and unless this help is given on the basis that it is a mutual giving and a mutual taking, unless there is benefit to be derived both by the recipient country and the giving country, I do not think in the long-term that the moneys that will be disbursed to these countries will be welcomed.

The autumn edition of Comhlámh poses the question of whether we are to have one world or a divided world. If we just give money to the Third World without seeing the benefits that are to be derived by the people of these areas we will continue to have a divided world instead of the one world concept we want.

An Leas-Chathaoirleach

It is now 4 o'clock and on the Order of Business this afternoon we decided to take item No. 3 at 4 o'clock. Perhaps the Leader of the House would confirm to other people who want to contribute to this Bill that we will go back to that again at 7 o'clock. Am I correct?

That is correct. It is proposed now to take item No. 3 and to resume on this Bill not later than 7 p.m. If, of course, item No. 3 finishes before then we can immediately resume on it, but since item No. 3 is a motion on the critical matter of unemployment which is a concern to us all I imagine it will run the full three hours.

I move the adjournment of No. 2, presuming we are resuming it at 7 o'clock.

Debate adjourned.
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