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Normal View

Seanad Éireann debate -
Wednesday, 4 Apr 1984

Vol. 103 No. 8

Land Bill, 1984: Second Stage.

Question proposed: "That the Bill be now read a Second Time".

The main purpose of the Bill is to exclude agricultural leases from certain provisions in the Statue Book which might be regarded as inhibiting the development of leasing as part of our land tenure system. At the same time, the opportunity is being taken to include a group of provisions of a technical nature aimed at tidying up some existing, largely domestic, Land Commission operations and functions.

The programme of reform of landlord-tenant relations in Ireland saw the tenant advance from the position of occupation at the whim of the landlord to himself becoming the owner of the land. The process began around 1860 with a series of statutes which granted progressively more rights to the tenant until the balance of advantage lay with him over the landlord. It is arguable that this development, and the consequent loss of any real control over their estates by landlords, convinced the latter class that ultimate transfer of ownership was inevitable and that their interest lay in securing the best possible terms for the transfer rather than in resistance. Subsequent to the achievement of tenant-purchase, it became the accepted view that the landlord system should not be allowed to be revived. The measures benefiting the tenant in an actual landlord-tenant relationship up to now have remained on the Statute Book.

The achievement of ownership of his land by the tenant had at least one not too acceptable result. Possession of land, per se, tended to be regarded as an end in itself and more important questions of user and management tended to be overlooked. The instinctive and basic motivation of landholders was the determination to retain control of the holding and, ideally, to enlarge it. Because the legislation was so much orientated towards the tenant, the adoption of leases even of a short or medium term nature came to be seen by landholders as a threat to their secure ownership of the land. Having seen the process of dispossession by the former landlords, the native landowner was not disposed to lay himself open in his turn to the same fate.

I believe that much has been done over the past year or so to change this attitude and to get the concept of land leasing promoted and accepted among the farming community as a way of making better use of our land. I have had numerous discussions on this theme with farming organisations, with the co-operative movement and with other national and local organisations. The response has been very encouraging. All are in favour of leasing and many have shown their willingness to work at developing it.

There is now a growing awareness that our owner-occupier system of land tenure is rather rigid and inflexible and that it seriously retards the pace of structural change. Landowners persist in holding on to land long after they are able to work it fully. It is quite evident that this attitude which attaches unwarranted status to the mere possession of land contributes, to a very substantial degree, to the rigidity of our land structure. If agriculture is to make its optimum contribution to the economy, then it is the use to which land is put that is of importance. The rigidity in the system must be replaced by mobility. Since coming into office, I have given particular attention to this problem. I want to ensure that more and more of our unused land is put into production by being channelled into the management of those willing and able to work it to its full potential. One of the most promising ways of doing this is, in my view, through the encouragement of leasing.

As I mentioned, the fact that the old landlord and tenant laws leaned in favour of the tenant has been one factor which inhibited the development of land leasing on any scale here. If we are to get leasing established as a normal farm management practice we must allay any fears potential lessors may still have about leasing their land. Some have fears about the way their land will be used if they lease it. Some, quite genuinely, are afraid that they would bring themselves to the unfavourable attention of the Land Commission. Others worry that the provisions in earlier legislation could affect their rights, if they lease.

It seems to me that the man who leases his land for a term of years is not only assured of a guaranteed income but is also far less likely to run the risk of having his land exploited than he would if he let it on the 11-month system. The temporary nature of the latter system ensures that neither owner nor tenant is likely to invest in improvements. As for any intervention by the Land Commission, I have several times already given an assurance, and I will reiterate it here, that the Land Commission will not seek to acquire any lands which are the subject of a bona fide lease, nor will they accept any claims for tenancies in respect of leases made in recent times or from now on.

As for those provisions in earlier legislation, it is obviously right that a prospective lessor should have the assurance that, when the lease has expired, he will be able to resume possession without fuss or legal complications. Any apprehension about claims under law for tenancy interests, compensation, and so on, would present a serious, if not decisive, deterrent for a lessor. Because of this I considered it proper that those statutory provisions in the old legislation which seem to favour the tenant unduly during the course, or on expiry, of a lease should be identified and revoked. This course was recommended in the report of the inter-departmental committee on land structure reform and accepted in the 1980 White Paper on Land Policy.

The effect of the present Bill, therefore, will be to give equal status to both lessor and lessee and to enable them to come together and agree between themselves on the terms of the lease without any overriding statutory provisions. I might add, in passing, that two model leases are widely available. One was drawn up jointly by the Irish Farmers Association and Allied Irish Banks working in co-operation with the Incorporated Law Society of Ireland and the Royal Institute of Chartered Surveyors. The other model was drawn up by the Irish Co-operative Organisation Society. These documents are, of course, models only. The precise provisions to be included in any individual lease, will, as I have said, be a matter for the parties concerned in each case.

The task of identifying the main inhibiting provisions has now been carried out. The enactments concerned are set out in section 3 (1) of the Bill which is before the House. The intention is that these enactments will not apply to a lease of agricultural land made after the Bill has passed into law.

I will outline briefly the sections of the old Acts which are covered by the Bill.

Sections 70 and 71 of the Landlord and Tenant Law Amendment Act, Ireland, 1860, provide for reinstatement of a tenant if he pays all arrears and costs within six months of the execution of a decree for possession and applies to the court for reinstatement. It is felt that a lessee who is in breach of the terms of his lease and against whom a decree for possession has been executed should have no further claims on the leasehold and that the lessor should be entitled to resume undisputed possession of his land. Subsequent minor amendments of these provisions contained in section 13 of the Land Law (Ireland) Act, 1881, sections 7 (3) and 30 (2) of the Land Law (Ireland) Act, 1887 and section 16 of the Land Law (Ireland) Act, 1896, are also provided for.

Sections 3 and 7 of the Landlord and Tenant (Ireland) Act, 1870, provide for the payment of a compensation for disturbance by a lessor. There is legal advice that ejectment of a tenant on expiry of a lease could be regarded by a court as disturbance. As indicated already, one of the main aims of the Bill is to ensure that it will be the terms of the lease itself which will govern the relationship between the lessor and lessee. If the lessor is forced to take ejectment proceedings in order to regain possession of his property on expiry of a lease, then he should not be put at risk of having to pay compensation to the lessee.

Section 4, Landlord and Tenant (Ireland) Act, 1870, provides for a claim by a lessee, on quitting the lease, for compensation for improvements carried out by him on the leasehold. Such improvements might have been carried out against the wishes of the lessor, or be of no value to him. Again it seems much more appropriate that the arrangements for improvements, as agreed between the parties, including compensation, if any, should be determined by the lease agreement itself.

Section 1, Land Law (Ireland) Act, 1881, gives the lessee the right to sell his interest in the leasehold. Here, also, I feel that the parties themselves should prescribe the terms of the lease, including any provisions regarding sale, subdivision or subletting by the lessee as they may agree.

Section 4, Land Law (Ireland) Act, 1881, provides that a lessee from whom a lessor demands an increase in rent is entitled to compensation, to be fixed by the court, in respect of the fall in sale value of the tenancy in consequence of the increased rent. It is probable that this provision was primarily in respect of tenancies based on the simplest documentary, or even verbal, agreements. Modern leases would normally make provision for adjustments of the rent during the term of the agreement, so that the questions of the lessor demanding an arbitrary increase would not arise.

Section 13, Land Law (Ireland) Act, 1881, permits a lessee to sell his interest within six months of the execution of a decree for possession for non-payment of rent. The intention here is to ensure that the lessor is entitled to regain undisputed possession of his property on termination of the lease for whatever reason.

Section 22, Land Law (Ireland) Act, 1881, renders void an agreement by a tenant to contract out of any rights conferred on him by statute provided the holding concerned has a PLV not exceeding £150. Because of the Supreme Court decision declaring the PLV system to be unconstitutional, it is possible that this provision is no longer operative. However, it is included here in order to put the matter beyond doubt. The intention is that, as already indicated, the terms of a lease will be those agreed between the parties and will not be subject to overriding statutory provisions.

Before turning from this landlord-tenant legislation I would like to spell out again that what is being proposed in the Bill represents a complete turn around in the basic philosophy of landlord-tenant relations as it has been conventionally accepted here for over a century. The clear intention is that, as far as possible, lessees will hold land from the owners on the terms explicitly laid down in the lease contract itself rather than on those stipulated by those old statutes. The original legislation was introduced to protect a particularly weak section of society — the tenants-at-will — who had no security in their livelihoods, or, indeed, in their very homes. The State intervened to support them against exploitation by the dominant class of the day. The support and protection are no longer necessary in the context of modern day leasing. What is envisaged now is an agreement between equal partners, freely entered into for their mutual advantage. As I have already said, the 1980 White Paper indicated that legislation would be brought forward to repeal any existing statutory provisions which might be interpreted as inhibiting the development of leasing as a form of land tenure.

I am well aware that the removal of these inhibiting provisions will not, of itself, succeed in getting leasing established as a normal farm management practice, but it will help clear some of the worries farmers have in regard to leasing their land. It will now be open to those looking for land to lease and those willing to make land available to come together freely to make their agreement on the conditions which should attach to each letting.

However, the major task still facing us is to get people to see that the letting of their land for a term of years is a very simple and profitable option for those who are unable, because of age or other reasons, to work it. There is, of course, an amount of such land available — the amount has been estimated at just one million acres. However, almost all of this is let under the 11-month conacre system. We must try to convince those who are letting their land on this seasonal basis that it would be in their own best interest, as well as in the national interest, to adopt a fixed longer term arrangement. As I said earlier, a term lease should eliminate the risk that is inherent in the 11-months system that the lands will be exploited and rundown. When the owner gets his land back at the end of the fixed term, it is now likely to go back in good condition. Nor should he fear losing out at a time of rising rents, because any normal lease will provide for periodic reviews of the rent payable. The lessee, on the other hand, will have a guarantee of possession for a stated number of years, and he can plan his enterprise in a rational and constructive way without the uncertainty of renewal from year to year. Leasing will both make it easier for newcomers to get into farming and enable the small farmer to enlarge his holding, without the necessity for capital investment in purchase.

As leasing is a novel concept in Ireland, it will take a great amount of promotion to get the idea accepted. I have directed the Land Commission to take a positive role in so promoting it. Area officers of the commission have been assigned specifically to the task of promoting and encouraging leasing in their areas. They will foster discussion and interest and will co-operate with farming organisations, co-operatives and other national and local bodies who are anxious to bring potential lessors and lessees together.

I would like here to refer to the very valuable work being done by co-operatives to promote leasing. They have had, and continue to have, a unique role to play in this area. Co-operatives are an ideal vehicle for promoting discussion and interest in the subject and for putting potential lessors and lessees in touch with one another. I would like to express my appreciation for the contribution they are making and to say that the Land Commission are eager to work with them towards attaining wider acceptance of leasing.

While I am talking about leasing, I would like to mention that the Social Welfare Act, 1984, contains a provision for new rules for the assessment of means for social assistance in cases where land is leased. At present, income from leasing of any kind of property is based, broadly speaking, on the capital value of the property while income from 11-month lettings is taken to be the actual rent received. Under the new rules rent received on foot of bona fide leases of agricultural land will be treated in the same way as rent from 11-month lettings for the purpose of assessing income under the Social Welfare Acts. This has removed what I consider to be a serious obstacle to the adoption of leasing. Before I leave the subject I would like to say that I am at present considering other measures under which leasing would be encouraged. Of course the budgetary constraints under which we work at present will limit the options to be explored.

I would now like to deal with sections 4 to 14 of the Bill. As I said earlier, the opportunity is being taken to streamline some Land Commission procedures and to facilitate revesting and the exchange of land. For example, up to now, the Land Commission have had the power, in exchanges, to accept registered land only. It would facilitate the distribution of lands on hands and, generally facilitate schemes for rearrangement, if the commission's power to exchange was extended to include unregistered land where the exchangee has a right to vacant possession.

Another proposal is to provide for the dissolution of the Irish Church Temporalities Fund, the extinguishing of charges on land payable to that fund and the validation of the ending of payments to the fund as from 28 September 1975. The history of this fund, very briefly, is that under the provisions of the Irish Church Act, 1869, the temporal property of the Established Church, including its revenues, passed to the State. The Act also set up the Church Temporalities Fund into which the former revenue of the Church was paid. In 1881 the administration of the fund devolved on the Land Commission. Over the years the process of compulsory redemption of charges on lands which were the subject of proceedings under the Land Purchase Acts brought about a huge reduction in the income accruing to the fund and the collection of rents became uneconomic. By 1975, the rental income was reduced to about £1,000 and collection of the remaining rents was ceased. The section also provides that the assets, now standing at about £2.8 million in Government investments, and any future sums that accrue, will be paid into, or disposed of for the benefit of, the Exchequer, as the Minister for Finance may decide. Section 14 and the Schedule to the Bill provide for repeal of various enactments. These repeals are required in connection with the dissolution of the fund.

It is also proposed to provide that the term "prior mortgage" mentioned in section 80 of the Building Societies Act, 1976, does not include charges on land to secure payment of a purchase annuity, a land reclamation annuity or any other annual payment to the Land Commission. Under section 80 of that Act, a building society may not give a loan on a property subject to a prior mortgage unless that mortgage is in favour of the society. The effect of the present proposal will be that the existence of any land purchase annuity or annual sum or land reclamation annuity will not prevent a building society from advancing a mortgage on a property subject to such a payment. As a major proportion of land is subject to Land Commission annuities the effect of this provision will be to simplify greatly the process of setting up a building society mortgage.

Before I conclude, I would like to emphasise that, whilst the encouragement of leasing is an integral part of a comprehensive land reform programme, it is nevertheless only a first step in the formulation of such a programme. I have in recent months been examining critically a number of aspects of the land problem that seem to me to be of particular importance. The problem of late inheritance and the need to give smallholders a fair chance to compete for land coming on the market in their locality are matters of fundamental concern. Some progress is already being made in encouraging group purchase of land, the rearrangement of fragmented holdings and the division of commonages. It has been estimated that some 80 per cent of all land transfers take place as a result of inheritance and succession. What is most desirable here is that successors come into possession of land at an age when they are still sufficiently receptive to the up-to-date ideas and practices that will enable them to work it efficiently. Unfortunately, this is not what is happening. In far too many cases, farmers delay transferring their lands until they are themselves aged and their successors are no longer young. Naturally, individual family circumstances will dictate the time and manner of the disposition of property, but we must seek ways which would contribute towards lowering the average age of succession.

I am having a look also at the possibilities for partnership arrangements or phased transfer of management between owner and heir. In general terms, I incline to the view that the problem of late succession and inheritance is not one in which legislation is likely to make a major impact. Nevertheless, the budget decision to extend for one year the stamp duty exemption for transfer of land to young trained farmers is an example of the kind of positive influence that can be exerted by the State in this area. I have been considering whether there might not be a case for regulating or controlling the sale of land that comes on to the open market. In the past the suggestion has been made that land purchase should be regulated by the imposition of a surcharge on the purchase price, possibly on a sliding scale, depending on who buys it. The main purpose of such a surcharge would be to enable the smaller farmer to gain access to land. Related to this would be the encouragement already being given for joint purchase by small groups of farmers where such land comes up for sale. By coming together to purchase as a group the individual farmers are given purchasing power they would not otherwise possess.

The Land Commission will give all the help and advice possible in the subdivision of land purchased by groups and in any necessary rearrangement of holdings which might be required following the purchase. The lending agencies have promised their support for farmers seeking to join together as a group to buy land. Land Commission staff will also help farmers to sort out the problem of fragmented farms. This is work in which they have great experience and they are available to put that experience at the disposal of farmers. The commission will do all the paperwork and arrange for transfer of ownership of the final holding to each of the occupiers. The restructuring of holdings can, of course, greatly add to the value of the land and lead to increased efficiency and output.

I am anxious also to see more progress being made in the division of commonages. Obviously not all commonages are suitable for division. However, there are areas of potentially productive commonages where division would be a very worth while proposition. Here, again, help is available from the Land Commission staff. I have referred very briefly to these matters so that the House would see the Bill that is before it in the wider context.

Apart from what I have touched upon, there may be other aspects of the land situation which should be considered and I would welcome the views of the Members of this House on these. Land policy has been virtually unchanged for a long time. It is clear to me and is, I think, now generally accepted that the aim of future policy must be to create the conditions which will stimulate the optimum level of structural change, thereby ensuring that land is in the hands of those best able and willing to work it to its maximum potential. Leasing will have a very important part to play in this area in the future and I have no hesitation in commending the Bill to the House as an important measure designed primarily to encourage the wider acceptance of leasing.

This Bill is more notable for its omissions than for what it contains. As far as I can see it merely repeals many of the old Land Acts which have been on the Statute Book for the past century and clears the way for land leasing. While I welcome any effort being made to enable it to make our land more productive and get that land into the hands of progressive young farmers, I am disappointed that this Bill does not go far enough to reform the whole system of land structure and transfer in this country.

The Minister of State in the past 12 months has been given a great deal of publicity for his efforts in this area. Our expectations have been built up, but unfortunately what has been produced at the end of the day has been most disappointing. It has been, in fact, a damp squib. If the Government were serious about tackling the land problems, they would have come forward with a more positive Bill for land reform and would have backed it up with the necessary finance to put their legislative proposals into effect. Instead, what we get is a very minor Bill which is merely tinkering with our land structure problems. In Ireland, the major land reforms have already taken place and our concern now must be with improving farm structure and land usage.

Successive Governments through various Land Acts have attempted to reform. The Land Act of 1870 aimed at providing compensation for disturbance of tenure and improvements. The Act, of course, was too restrictive in scope and achieved little. It did, however, contain some provisions for State-aided land purchase and marked the beginning of a series of Land Acts by which Irish tenant farmers achieved their rights.

The Gladstone Act of 1881 established the Land Commission and gave force of law to what were popularly called the three Fs — fixity of tenure, fair rent and freedom of sale. In a few years, most tenants had fair rents fixed for their holdings and, in addition, the Act empowered the Land Commission to make advances to tenants for the purchase of their holdings and enabled it to purchase land for resale to the tenants.

The Land Act of 1891 set up the Congested Districts Board which were given the task of relieving congestion in the western counties. At that time all holdings under the rateable valuation of £10 were regarded as uneconomic. Of course, for historical reasons those type holdings were very numerous in the western part of the country.

The Act of 1909 marked a significant change in land reform by conferring power on the Land Commission and the Congested Districts Board to acquire land compulsorily for the relief of congestion.

The Land Act of 1933 amended the constitution of the Land Commission by providing for the setting up of an appeals tribunal consisting of a judicial commissioner and two lay commissioners to adjudicate, mainly on price appeals. The Act also defined the powers and functions of the Minister for Lands and the Land Commission and extended the Land Commission's powers to acquire land for the relief of congestion. It also gave major concessions to the farming community through the reduction of all purchase annuities by 50 per cent.

The Land Bond Act, 1934 provided that the purchase money for all land acquired by the Land Commission should be advanced in land bonds. Indeed, this Act has helped the Land Commission down through the years to acquire many of the acres of land which they have acquired and have helped the Government to pay for that land, rather than having to raise loans.

The Land Act of 1950 had a provision enabling the Land Commission to pay cash for land offered for sale on the open market, but this facility was limited to the purchase of land required for migrants and for rearrangement of fragmented holdings. The Act also provided for payment by the Land Commission of market value for lands acquired by them — a formula by which a price was fixed that should be fair to both owner and the Land Commission.

The Land Act of 1965 strengthens the acquisition powers of the Land Commission, particularly in regard to land which was non-residential and/or offered for sale. It included a comprehensive provision for control of sub-division, letting and sub-letting of the land. It also provides a pension scheme to induce elderly, incapacitated or blind persons, especially those with no obvious family successors, to retire from farming and offer their lands to the Land Commission for structural reforms. This was a novel idea at the time but, of course, the scheme did not enjoy the success which was envisaged. Another important section in this Act was section 45, which initiated a system of direct control by the Land Commission over the purchase of land by non-nationals. The section stipulates that subject to certain exceptions non-nationals may not require any interest in rural land, save with the consent of the Land Commission.

By a series of Land Acts dating from 1870, the landlord/tenant system which had obtained since the seventeenth century was eliminated and replaced by a system of owner occupancy. In all, 414,000 tenants became full owners of their lands, totalling some 14 million acres. The emphasis now must be on structural reform.

Agricultural land is the country's major natural resource. Indeed, Ireland is unique among its European partners as regards the extent to which its economy is dependent on agriculture and because of the extent of this dependence it is vital that the agricultural industry should be in a position to make the maximum contribution possible to the country's economic growth and to the generation of additional employment. As long as a considerable proportion of the country's land resources remains under-utilised and unproductive, the agricultural industry cannot make its proper contribution to the development of the economy. There is justification therefore for initiating new policies towards ensuring that all land is, as far as possible, productively and efficiently used in future.

That is why I am so disappointed with the Bill before us — it does not go far enough to reform the present system. There is, in fact, nothing in the Bill about rearrangement grants, and this could do so much to relieve the fragmentation of holdings, especially in the west where the problem is most acute. There is nothing in the Bill about our bogs. The Land Commission put tenants on those bogs many years ago. Many of the bogs are now being cut out and I would pose the question: should the Land Commission not have the right, now when the bog is cut away, to get those tenants out and arrange for the cutaway bog to be reclaimed? Neither is there anything in the Bill about sub-divisions. I understand that at the moment approximately 8,000 applications are being made annually to the Land Commission for sub-division and that about one-third of those are turned down. What is the reason for this? Are we slowly trying to undo the work the Land Commission have been doing over the years, by again creating uneconomic holdings?

The Minister mentioned commonages, and this again is an area that could be expanded and developed far faster than at the present time. Money was made available under the western package for the division of those commonages and there are many commonages in the west, as Minister Connaughton knows. I have seen some of those commonages fenced off and fertilised very successfully, and that is the only way in which they can be brought into productive use. I would like to see far more development in this area because the Land Commission have the expertise, the staff and all they require is the money to do the work. I would hope that the Minister, in particular, would try to spearhead this drive to have the commonages, particularly in the west of Ireland, fenced and fertilised. There are many areas where co-operation is forthcoming from the local farmers. In particular, in those areas where co-operation is forthcoming every effort should be made to utilise the expertise that we have in the Land Commission to advise those farmers, to plan out the divisions for them, and to help them in every way to get those commonages divided. If they are being used as commonages, they are not productive, they are not being used to their full potential. I would ask the Minister to try to pay more attention to this area.

I am sure too, that if the Minister and the Government had wished to tackle those aspects of our land policy he would have found a wealth of knowledge in his own Department. Indeed, he could also have studied the Fianna Fáil White Paper on Land Policy published in 1980. That White Paper, in which I had an input as the Minister responsible at the time of preparation, set out quite clearly how the Fianna Fáil Government proposed to tackle our land problem. We proposed to monitor the sale of land, to give incentives to farmers who needed additional land and had not the necessary resources to buy it, and also to penalise speculators and others by fiscal means where their farms were above a certain acreage. That was a very important decision and was something that I hoped the Minister would have included in the Bill at present before the House.

Much consideration was given to that White Paper. A great deal of consultation took place at the time between Department officials and other interested bodies. The proposals outlined were not arrived at lightly — they were given very serious consideration. I am disappointed that some of those proposals are not incorporated in this Bill. There are, of course, many long-term advantages in the leasing system now being proposed by the Minister. The tenants, first of all, have security of tenure and can embark on a farm development programme. It gives an opportunity to younger farmers to commence farming in their own right, and that is something that they find very hard to achieve at the present time.

There are disadvantages also, at which we have to look and to which we must give serious consideration. Older farmers may view the surrender of their holdings for 12 years or longer as being tantamount to parting with them for life, especially if the contract provides for the right of renewal. This problem can be overcome by a major promotional effort to sell the idea of long-term leasing to interested farmers. I am glad the Minister specified this in his speech this evening and that he will use the Land Commission and the co-ops to promote this leasing, because it is only by efforts of that kind that you can really sell the idea.

The great majority of holdings here are transferred independently of the market, through lifetime successions or inheritance after death. Unfortunately, very many of these family farm transactions do not take place until the owner of the land is at an advanced age and the successor no longer young. This has adverse consequences both for farm development and rural demographic vitality. However, I feel sure that if proper incentives were provided for the retiring farmer he would be prepared to consider handing over his farm at an earlier age. It is very hard to expect him to do that if proper financial arrangements have not been made. He is handing over his only means of support, his total assets, to his successor. Of course, there is also the psychological barrier to be overcome. The fact that the transfer is a total surrender creates these problems for many farmers. Young people now are getting married earlier, and this also creates problems of trying to support two families on the one farm. Unless the farm is very large, this would be impossible without financial support from the State.

In general, we agree with the broad principles of this Bill. Our main objection is that it does not go far enough to provide the structural reform that is now necessary. A new approach to the land problem must be adopted if worth while results are to be achieved within a reasonable period. The Land Commission have been constrained in recent times, particularly by the lack of financial support. I pity the people who are working in the Land Commission at the present time because I believe that they are being slowly ground into the floor. No money is being provided for them to purchase and reallocate land as they did in former years.

I remember not too many years ago when the Land Commission were acquiring and dividing 30,000 and 35,000 acres per year. The situation has changed drastically in the meantime. It is a pity that more money is not provided for those people because land is still going up for sale. I am sure the Minister will agree with me that farmers are still going to the local politicians asking them to press the Land Commission to buy certain farms when they come up for sale. It has reached the stage now where we know quite well that we have no hope of getting the Land Commission to acquire those lands. There is still a lot of good work that the Land Commission can do, particularly in the west where the holdings are fragmented or small, and it is a pity that the Land Commission are being starved to death for the want of financial support.

New measures are required to make more land available to deserving smallholders and young people with expertise in agriculture. This Bill will go some small distance in achieving this. However, the Government have lost a golden opportunity in not having more positive proposals for structural reform. We hope, perhaps on Committee Stage, to put down some amendments to try to strengthen this Bill, and I look forward to the discussion that the Bill before us today will generate in this House.

It gives me great pleasure to welcome this Bill here in the House today. I would like to compliment the Minister of State, Deputy Connaughton, for his initiative in introducing the Bill. It is long overdue, to say the least. We should look at this Bill in precise perspective. My interpretation of this Land Bill is that it enables a leasing system to come into being, that it formulates a leasing system upon which, up to now, people were deterred from embarking and were afraid from a legal point of view of getting involved in. Essentially, I believe what this Bill is setting out to do, for which I commend it, is to replace our 11-month system of land letting by a longer period of letting, whether it be five years, seven years, ten years or whatever. If it does achieve that essential purpose and if it makes longer-term leasing of land more attractive and more acceptable, it will have achieved a great deal. However, there is a great distance to travel before one will achieve that because matters in relation to land are, indeed, extremely emotive.

Reference has been made to the three Fs — free sale, fixity of tenure and fair rent. A lot of our history has to do with that. Therefore, one has to be extremely constructive and careful in the proposals put forward to ensure that one brings the people with one in this whole operation. We must bear in mind that two parties are involved. We have the person who owns the land and the person to whom the land will likely be rented — the lessor and the lessee.

We must, by inducement, incentive and a whole lot of other carrots try to sell the idea that the concept of land leasing is a good one and that the people involved will have some benefit from it. This is extremely essential, because all the legislation in the world will not have the effect that the Minister and we all desire, of greater mobility of land, unless the people themselves go for it. At the present time, I believe that nobody will disagree that we have thousands of acres, in fact millions, that are not being utilised to their maximum degree. This is an extremely serious position for a country with very limited acreage of good land. We have a total geographical area of something like 13 million acres. We have, perhaps, an effective acreage of land that could be used for farming purposes of ten or 11 million acres, so it is a scarce commodity. It is one of our main natural resources. For that reason, we have no great room to play around with, to misuse or abuse land. Anything that we can do that will help the greater and better utilisation of land is to be encouraged.

The provisions of this Bill will do that, provided that the persons concerned are going to be attracted towards it. I would suggest to the Minister that the lessor must be given attractive incentives in the area of taxation, in the area of social welfare. For example, I would submit that consideration should perhaps be given to the lessor's returns from leasing his land being exempt when social welfare computations and the like are being arrived at. That is important. Many of these people that we are talking about who have land that we expect would be put into that pool are on social welfare benefit.

Another important point involves taxation. The income derived by the owner from leasing this land would be regarded as earned income, rather than unearned income as would be the case in ordinary leasing of land. I would suggest that there should be a very liberal tax allowance on the leased price for the land. On the lessee side, I believe also that inducements in the same areas of taxation must be introduced. I also believe that the stock relief measures which have been brought back to last year's level must be given special relevance and there must be special stock relief measures for persons who are leasing this land. That is essential.

On the question of capital allowances, the present restrictions on capital allowances for leasing must and should be abolished. On a general note — and it would apply in particular to land leasing because we are trying something that is new, something that people have not embarked upon — insofar as is possible, interest rates for those leasing land should be at the level of 10 per cent or thereabouts. In the same context, for agriculture generally interest rates should not be in excess of that figure. That is the highest figure that agriculture can sustain and give a return to the people engaged in it.

Reference has been made to many very important issues here with which one would agree and which need rectification, such as late inheritance. This seriously affects the better use of our land. All efforts directed towards an earlier inheritance of land are to be welcomed.

I know that the Minister has that very much in mind in introducing a leasing system. Essentially, what the Minister is trying to do with the Bill and with various other modifications that may be necessary to it, is to make sure that these millions of acres of land, which at the moment are not being used as efficiently or as effectively as they ought, will be brought into a better state of production, give more employment and be used to the best advantage. This will help in so many ways, in our balance of payments, in the whole unemployment area, in the whole question of providing more raw materials for food processing, etc. That is the whole scenario and I do not for a moment believe that we can just talk about legislation that is going to enable person A to lease land from person B. There is a lot more involved than that.

We must also bear in mind that those who are not owners of their land are the exceptions rather than the rule, that practically all who farm own land. There are, however, some small numbers who only rent land. Sometimes they rent additional land but, generally speaking, they have land of their own. A radical departure from that would be something to be welcomed. While ownership of land always has been a very precious thing to our people its ownership and the whole working of land should not necessarily be viewed in the same light. Very high percentages of those who farm well in Europe do so on land leased for varying terms of say, five, seven, ten, 12 years and so no. In order to farm land well, to make a living from it does not necessarily mean that one has to own that land. That is the nub of the problem. I believe we are moving away from the situation in which the question of ownership becomes an obstacle in that direction. A lessor must be certain, when leasing his land, that he can and will get back his land after the expiration of the lease and, in turn, the lessee knows that he has that land for that length of time; two important dimensions.

There should be no possibility or danger that people would fear that a land agency, the Land Commission or whatever, would acquire that land. That is very important, has got to be stressed and sold loud and clear to people — that it is a contractual arrangement between two parties and that, on the expiration of that contract, those parties, if they so wish, can renew the contract, or part company, going their separate ways when the lessor can take back his land and the lessee rent land elsewhere or whatever.

We must not become too confused about the whole question of land mobility. One of the most important criterion of all with regard to land is how it is utilised. That underlies the whole land situation in Ireland — land is not utilised fully or to its best advantage. Ministers and others must critically ascertain how well land is being farmed. That must be the yardstick for the future as to how land should be held by persons vis-á-vis ownership and so on. There is no point in large tracts of land going into the hands of people who are going to make less use of it than is being made at present. So long as there is no congestion involved any land that is being efficiently farmed should be allowed to be retained by its present owner.

The Minister referred to the possibility of a surcharge on land. That is an area that must be looked at extremely carefully. One could run into difficulties or interference in the free sale of land. As well as aspiring land owners — and we are all hopeful that smallholders will get land — there is also the person who may be a smallholder and who wants to sell his land. Therefore that situation must be examined and monitored very carefully and critically as it progresses.

The stamp duty exemption being extended for another year is to be welcomed. Hopefully this will bring about earlier inheritance than has been the experience of the past. One would like to think that perhaps the period could be further extended. However it would be inappropriate at this stage to talk about an extension beyond the period specified. The Government are to be complimented on extending that stamp duty exemption period for one additional year.

There are a lot of difficulties, anomalies and problems associated with land about which one could talk ad nauseam but they are not related directly to this Bill. At the same time they have been referred to and I believe must be tackled. The question of commonages and fragmentation of holdings, vital issues, must be tackled in a very sensible way. I am not so certain that commonages ought to continue to be worked as commonages. I am aware that many commonages will have to remain commonages and be worked on that state. Regardless of fencing, fertilising or any sort of improvement measures, a commonage will still present a lot of difficulties in its operation. In so far as such can be done their division should be borne in mind. On the fragmentation question I believe that some central land agency ought endeavour to have land replaced by other land, in other words, that people will begin to realise that five acres that they own down the road can be matched by another five acres adjoining their holding or whatever, that kind of thing. The present fragmentation programme is such that it does not allow any type of progressive farming to be carried on. It is a piecemeal type of effort leaving farmers with very fragmented holdings. There are holdings of limited acreage, of 30, 40 or 50 acres fragmented in four, five or six divisions and more in some cases. Such fragmentation is not conducive to any type of good farming practice. These are some matters warranting attention.

The Bill deserves all the support it can be given. Indeed its concept will require all the help that each and every one of us can give when it becomes law. Otherwise it will not succeed of its own accord. Merely having a piece of legislation enacted will not make any difference. We all have a responsibility to promote the concept of land-leasing, to get across to people who own land that, by leasing their land for a certain period, they are not foregoing any divine rights. We must get across to people the idea that it is good business to lease land for a five, six or seven-year period rather than on the 11-months system. Land leased on the 11-months system is of benefit to nobody, the person who owns it or the lessee. I strongly commend the Bill and congratulate the Minister on his initiative in having brought it before the House today.

Ba mhaith liom i dtosach cúpla focal a rá i dtaobh an Bhille. Tá sé soiléir go bhfuil an-díomá ar an Aire nach raibh sé in ann na smaointe a bhí aige a chur i bhfeidhm san Bhille seo.

There are many limiting factors in the development of Irish agriculture today. One of the greatest limiting factors perhaps is the capacity of our farmers to use the land rather than the capacity of land to increase production. The restricting factors are land usage and management. Obviously there is a productivity problem in Irish agriculture. There are deep-rooted reasons relating to land structure: age structure, agricultural education and advice lying at the root of the productivity problem. Sixty-one per cent of farmers have less than 50 acres of land; 25 per cent are over 65 years of age compared with 6 per cent in the European Economic Community; 35 per cent of agricultural land is owned by persons without direct family heirs; 85 per cent of farmers have primary education only; less than 2 per cent of farmers have been to an agricultural college. This State contribution to agricultural education amounts to about 2 per cent of the value of agricultural production; 3½ per cent only of land changes hands each year and more than 80 per cent of this change is by way of gift and inheritance. Therefore, we must ask: what can be done to generate a more vibrant agricultural sector? There are no overnight solutions. The problems are long-term and the solutions, when fully implemented, will have a gradual, progressive effect.

It is precisely because of the statistics I have outlined and the deep-rooted problems — perhaps of an historical origin — that we are so disappointed with the contents of this Bill. We had expected a more imaginative, progressive and enlightened approach on the part of the Minister of State. We realise that our people's attachment to land — its emotional and sensitive nature to which Senator Hourigan referred — is very deep-rooted. One can go back centuries before we had British occupation here and find scholars writing about the attachment to land here. It takes a lot of courage and effort over time to break down that excessive attachment to owner-occupied farms which, in itself, has inherent strength but which also, in terms of land mobility, usage and getting the productivity of our farms up to maximum levels, carries inherent disadvantages. This skeleton Bill, stripped to the marrow, heralded for the past year with propaganda flowing life lava from Hawaii, must be a great disappointment to a very flamboyant Minister of State. The Minister of State was very mute here today. Obviously he would have wished very much to have been introducing the kind of Bill about which his colleague, Senator Hourigan spoke in terms of the broader incentives and the perspective, that he, like I, had expected. Though he did not criticise the Bill in his speech he outlined its fairly major defects. I am not blaming the Minister of State — his heart is in the right place — but he, like others before him, fell at the foot of the mountain, failed to jump over the Beecher's Brook of the Department of Finance and came into the House with this tiny measure. He is a highly qualified train driver without a train, a new train without railway tracks. That is my impression of this Bill. However, it will not deter us from having a major debate in this House in so far as that is possible — with all the leniency we can anticipate from the Chair — to cover a broad range of areas affecting the historical situation in relation to this matter and then move on to improve on what the Minister is proposing.

Over the past ten years or so there has been much debate about better utilisation of land, land mobility and agricultural development generally. In the more prosperous years of the seventies emphasis was placed on the question of trying to interfere in the land market so that those people most in need of land, who had extended their holdings to the limit possible, would have an opportunity of competing on the open market to purchase land. The very high prices obtaining at that time prohibited them from so doing. Therefore the debate centred on interference in that way. However, it was realised that interference in the open market which focuses on a small percentage of land in any given year, would not, of itself, resolve the problem. Of course, it is significant that, during that time — from such statistics as are available — more than half the land purchased went to people who were not full-time farmers.

It is interesting to note that in recent times the Irish Co-Operative Organisation Society, the farm organisations, Macra na Feirme and a number of other interested groups, have pointed to land-leasing as constituting an area where there is potential as far as land mobility is concerned. I welcome that occurrence. Indeed for far too long organisations like co-operatives, creameries and many organisations whose board membership includes farmers have been lacking and too little involved in overall management and effort to improve agricultural production. Over those years the commercially viable farm has been growing at a fairly fast rate in terms of what is now required to provide a comparable income. In the early thirties the Land Commission were talking about 25 acres; later it was 33 acres and, in the sixties, it was 40-45 acres. We must be sensible and say that it is no longer possible on those size of holdings to provide a viable family income unless the land and management is of an exceptionally high order. We must take the average, that is that it requires now as many as 70 acres of reasonably good land, well managed, to provide a comparable income. Farm sizes below that level — without any statistics being available to us — would indicate that management and production levels have been on the decrease, in fact, one-quarter of all our farmers are in off-farm employment also.

The raising of the size of farms to provide family incomes has occurred because of ever rising costs. Relativity between production costs and gross farm output over the years has been changing upwards all the time. Twenty years ago the total cost of inputs represented about 40 per cent of total gross farm input. It could now be as high as 80 per cent, leaving a tighter margin, requiring a farm of greater size and putting immense pressure on the smaller farm unit to survive.

There is one more interesting statistic in relation to the small farm situation. Most of us believed — and I think I have heard the Minister of State say — that the best enterprise for a small farmer to engage in is dairying. If one examines the position, comparatively speaking, over the past 20 years one finds that in 1966, 77 per cent of milk supplies came from holdings producing less than 5,000 gallons annually, representing 41 per cent of all milk supplied. By 1982 that 77 per cent had dropped to 32 per cent of suppliers under 5,000 gallons, supplying 6 per cent of the total milk output. Therefore a move away from dairying in the smaller farms into bigger, more intensive units has been developing and enterprises now engaged in on a large number of these farms are not dairying, and are less intensive and productive.

In the west — the Minister's own area — the agricultural labour force has been halved since 1926. The number of older, unmarried farmers has doubled, this despite efforts made in Knock and sometimes the small contributions we make in Lisdoonvarna in a particular month of the year. But let us be serious. These statistics indicate a kind of paralysis difficult to cure. There are professors in universities who would suggest that they should be moved away. But one might well ask: where do they go to? We have now 220,000 people unemployed. There are no great off-farm opportunities for such older farmers. One must bear in mind their attachment to the land, the trauma of moving into towns or urban settings which they find hostile and uncomfortable. While we should all like to see such land being made available for more productive use the Minister will agree that the provisions of the Bill will not deal with that problem, difficult as it is and being of such proportions, particularly in the west. Our real task at present is to ensure that the potentially viable farm of today does not become the marginal farm of tomorrow.

I should like to move on to the question of leasing and endeavour to ascertain the kind of impact it can have and where it will have some effect. Senator Hourigan referred to the eleven months leasing system. I do not know if we have any accurate notion of how many acres are let under that system — different figures are given of something between 750,000 acres and 1 million acres, a fairly significant proportion of which is consistently let to the same farmers in consecutive years. In terms of trying to change the deadlock situation that obtained it is crucial we make every effort to ensure that the initial stages of this programme are successful. I would be prepared to give the fullest possible assistance by way of any potentially realisable scheme that would get this off the ground because I fear the wrong impression might be given. That is why I am so disappointed — a disappointment I share with the Minister — that there is no incentive given here to the promotion of leasing. Obviously we must examine the social welfare and taxation codes. I know there are difficulties in achieving the proper mix between what is equitable and what is necessary in a given situation if one wants to uproot long-established practices in order to release this land for agricultural production. One must be courageous. Along with removing the legal obstacles of past century legislation and its provisions, one must simultaneously incorporate provisions to give the programme an initial boost.

I am not saying that the Exchequer should continue, year in year out, to provide massive incentives to people who, comparatively speaking, may be reasonably well-off. But to initiate that programme, these provisions must be introduced. Normally they do not come within the ambit of the Minister's Department but they do come within the ambit of the principle of this Bill. To introduce it in isolation — without such provisions — is to tie one's hands behind one's back. Every responsible organisation that I know of, committed to this development, have referred continuously to the necessity for incentives of this kind. Perhaps the whole social welfare ethos should be examined insofar as it relates to agriculture, insofar as farmers' dole has militated against agricultural development, has suppressed people's capacity to develop their resources, has torn apart in some ways the small farm incentive bonus, the payment for production, the production-oriented mentality and replaced it with a less desirable system. The social welfare provisions should be looked at in a more positive and imaginative way. I do not want to be misunderstood as saying that I am against payments to people with very poor incomes. On the one hand I want to be understood as being compassionate but, on the other, as realising that agricultural production and development, land mobility and social welfare payments — as we know them in many areas — are in conflict.

An Leas-Chathaoirleach

I do not like to interrupt the Senator when he is arriving at a crescendo. I wonder would the Deputy Leader of the House indicate whether we are abiding by our ruling of earlier today.

I hope so. We are concluding this debate at 5.30 p.m. and resuming it next week. Also it had been intended to adjourn for tea from 6 p.m. to 7 p.m., or from 6.30 p.m. to 7.30 p.m., whichever the House would prefer. We were going to take the motion on education at 5.30 p.m. That was my understanding.

An Leas-Chathaoirleach

At 6.30 p.m.

I would not wish at all to interfere with the normal procedures here so I shall be glad to resume, le cúnamh Dé, Dé Céadaoin seo chugainn.

Debate adjourned.
Sitting suspended at 5.30 p.m. and resumed at 6.30 p.m.
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