I move:
That Seanad Éireann approves the following Order in Draft:—
State Guarantees Act, 1954 (Amendment of Schedule) Order, 1984,
a copy of which Order in draft has been laid before the House.
State Guarantees Act, 1954 (Amendment of Schedule) Order, 1984: Motion.
The resolution arises from the arrangement recently concluded with the Dublin Gas Company and their bankers on the distribution of natural gas in the Dublin area.
There are four sources of finance for the project. One of these involves the provision by the principal contractor for the first phase of the conversion plan of a supplier credit facility of £10 million to Dublin Gas at a market rate of interest. Repayments of one-quarter of the total amount outstanding will be made on 31 December 1989, one-quarter on 31 December 1990 and the balance on 31 December 1991. The contractor has agreed to provide this facility only on the basis that it will be secured by a guarantee of the Minister for Finance, to whom the Dublin Gas Company will issue a debenture over their assets. It is to this facility that the proposed order refers.
All of the elements of the project financing package are inter-dependent. It is therefore, essential that the Seanad approves the resolution before it.
In addition to the supplier's credit of £10 million, the company intend to raise £54 million by means of bank loans and a further £10 million by the issue of loan stocks, some of which it will be possible to convert, at a future date, into equity. The agreement with the company does not involve the State in the giving of guarantees for any part of these funds.
The State will also be providing, through Bord Gáis Éireann, a loan facility of £17 million, £5 million of which has already been drawn down and £12 million for drawdown in July 1984. The terms provide for interest on the £17 million facility to be rolled up and repaid, one half on 31 December 1989 and one half on 31 December 1989. The loan is to be repaid in the period up to 31 December 1991.
In addition, BGE will provide a stand-by facility of £6 million. This will be matched on a pound for pound basis by the banks and will only be drawn down in the event of the debt profile agreed with the banks being exceeded for reasons other than capital costs arising from the conversion and development programmes. Where the excess arises as a result of overruns on these programmes, it has been agreed that BGE would advance additional credit on gas sales to offset it. This will not commit BGE to anything more than they are committed to already to put into the project, that is the BGE contribution in this regard can never exceed their existing total commitment to the project. Anything contributed by BGE will be clawed back as soon as the overrun is corrected or the debt falls back within the projected level. I would stress these are contingency measures and that strict arrangements for monitoring and controlling the project expenditure will be in place. Both the £17 million loan and BGE stand-by facilities will be secured but this security will initially be subordinated to the secured bank loans, the loan stocks and the existing debenture stocks of the company, which are secured by virtue of statute. When the bank debt has been reduced to £26 million, the State loans will rank pari passu for security purposes with all other facilities.
The supply agreement between BGE and Dublin Gas provides that, in order to expedite the introduction of natural gas to existing consumers of gas in the Dublin area, the price payable for natural gas under the agreement will be rebated by an amount expected to be approximately £42 million, allowing for anticipated inflation. This is to meet the cost of converting consumers to direct usage of natural gas. Any conversion costs — apart from labour costs and a limited amount of other Dublin Gas internal costs — in excess of that amount will be funded by a conversion loan provided by BGE. In addition, in order to facilitate the introduction of natural gas to new consumers of gas in the parts of Dublin which are not currently serviced by the company, the price will be rebated by a further amount expected to be approximately £28 million, allowing for anticipated inflation. As part of the agreement on these rebates Dublin Gas have agreed to pay a surcharge of £5 million to BGE in 1991.
It is obvious from what I have already said that the State is making a substantial financial commitment to the Dublin natural gas project. The bulk of the money is being provided by way of rebates off the price of future gas sales and the remainder by way of loans. The State will also incur a £10 million contingent liability in respect of the guarantee order now being sought. The benefits of this approach are twofold. Firstly, the impact of this enormous and costly infrastructural project on the Exchequer is minimised and, secondly, it provides a neat method of ensuring the maximum incentive for the Dublin Gas Company to go out and sell gas so that they can earn the rebates.
The provision of a supply of natural gas for Dublin is the most significant infrastructural development undertaken in this country for decades. It is a fundamental first step in the implementation of the Government's strategy for the orderly, efficient and profitable development of Kinsale gas. The cornerstone of this strategy is the capture for natural gas of as many as possible of the premium markets. Overall, the manufacturing sector will also benefit from the arrangements made with Dublin Gas as natural gas will also be available to industry.
The Government wish to maximise sales of natural gas in the kind of markets which will give the highest return to the Exchequer, have the greatest possible impact on the balance of payments by substituting for the more costly of the imported fuels, and which will use our limited supplies of gas in the most efficient way possible. Basically what we are talking about are the domestic market, commercial heating and cooking and certain industrial processes.
The largest concentration of such premium markets is in the Dublin area so it was obvious that our first task would be the construction of a natural gas pipeline from Cork to Dublin. It is a matter of record that Bord Gáis Éireann, the State body which carried out this work did so in a manner which would be the envy of many a private undertaking. The pipeline was completed ahead of schedule and comfortably within an extremely demanding budget. I would go so far as to say that the building of the pipeline was one of the most successful ventures carried out to date by the State and I would like to pay tribute here to Bord Gáis Éireann, their employees and contractors, and all involved.
It is worth mentioning that over 70 per cent of the contracts awarded went to Irish industry. This is particularly satisfying when one considers that it was not possible to obtain the pipeline itself in Ireland. It is the Government's firm intention that this policy of maximising the participation of Irish industry will be vigorously pursued in relation to all contracts for the Dublin project and indeed all other natural gas transmission and distribution projects throughout the country.
Having constructed the pipeline, the Government were then faced with a decision as to the best means of distributing the gas when it arrived in Dublin. I should say here that it was decided at a very early stage that gas would be made available to the ESB for use in their Pool-beg and North Wall generating stations. By using the gas in Dublin, the ESB were able to eliminate significant transmission losses and make other efficiencies. The savings from this alone justified the economics of the pipeline. But the long-term aim was to give the Dublin consumer the benefits of natural gas at a competitive price.
In coming to their decision on the arrangements for the distribution of the gas, the Government were conscious of the existence of the Dublin Gas Company, which had an extensive gas mains system already in place. The Government concluded that it would be possible to negotiate an agreement with the company which would be satisfactory from the point of view of return to the State for its investment and retention by the State of an appropriate level of control over both the distribution project itself and the level of profits which will accrue to private shareholders from the sale of this valuable and limited national resource. The Government decided, therefore, that the existing Dublin Gas Company should be the vehicle for the distribution of natural gas in the Dublin area but that the State would substantially participate in both the profits and the running of the undertaking.
An agreement was negotiated with Dublin Gas on this basis, which provided for the financial package which I have already outlined, including the guarantee of the supplier credit arrangement. The House is now being asked to approve in draft the order to give effect to the guarantee. In return for its quite substantial investment, the State is to receive 56 per cent of the profits of the company, plus an additional 50 per cent of any profits over and above a certain level. When, after a number of years the bank loans have been repaid, the State will in fact be receiving about 70-80 per cent of the profits of the company, taking taxation into account.
There is a provision in the agreement which entitles the State to guaranteed dividends of £20 million by December, 1992. The effect of this is that the State will receive, with some minor exceptions, priority over other shareholders in the matter of payment of dividends until this figure has been achieved. In addition the State in the form of Bord Gáis Éireann will also be paid for the gas itself.
Under the agreement, one-third of the voting directors of the company, including the chairman for the first two years, have been appointed by the State. The Government have also appointed a senior management official to Dublin Gas to oversee the conversion and development projects and to oversee the company's health generally. The State is also actively involved in the conversion and development monitoring committees which are being established to give advance warning of any possible serious overruns on expenditure and will enable measures to be taken in good time to rectify such situations. The State also has a number of legislative controls over the company. For example, its memorandum and articles and any amendments to these are subject to the approval of the Minister for Energy.
It has always been a feature of discussions with the Dublin Gas Company that a supply of natural gas was contingent on their implementing a number of measures to improve radically their operations, which were up until recently riddled with inefficiencies and restrictive practices. To give credit where credit is due, the company and their workforce have made significant strides in this area and are now, in the view of the Government, a fit vehicle for the safe and efficient distribution of natural gas.
Up to now the company have simply substituted natural gas for their naphtha feedstock and continued to reform towns gas. They are at present embarking on a major conversion programme largely funded by the State under the system of rebates which I have already described. Direct use of natural gas is more efficient. It means that gas delivered to homes in Dublin will be non-toxic. To that extent it is a safer gas. It will enable the consumer to have the benefit of cheaper, more modern and more efficient gas burning appliances. Natural gas has twice the energy content of towns gas. Conversion will, therefore, at a stroke, double the capacity of the existing Dublin Gas network and will make it possible for new mains, providing gas to areas not at present served, to be constructed more cheaply.
The importance of this project both in the Dublin area and the country as a whole cannot be over-estimated. It will result in greatly improved use from the point of view of efficiency of our natural gas resource, in significantly increased revenue to the Exchequer and in a substantial beneficial effect on the balance of payments —estimated to be in excess of £25 million in 1984 alone. It has ensured the future of more than 1,000 jobs in the Dublin Gas Company which otherwise would have been lost. The conversion and development programmes will directly result in the creation of more than 700 jobs for their duration.
The spin-off benefits to industry of the conversion and development programmes will be enormous and will certainly lead to the creation of many new jobs. It will improve our strategic position in the vital area of security of our energy supplies. The huge expansion in the market for natural gas will provide just the kind of incentive needed for exploration off our coasts. In short, we are on the threshold of a new energy era in Ireland. We have taken the first steps towards making a reasonably priced and secure indigenous fuel available in houses and businesses throughout the country. The draft order which I have placed before the House for approval is an essential first step in this process.
We would all agree with the Minister that Bord Gáis Éireann have done a tremendous job in bringing natural gas to the country. The switch-on in the Dublin area was certainly an historic occasion and I would agree with the Minister that we are on the threshhold of a new energy era. It is to be welcomed. We as legislators must endeavour not alone to bring the gas to Dublin but to divert natural gas into every possible area. I was in full agreement with the negotiations which took place with regard to the piping of natural gas into the North of Ireland. That was an historic agreement, to say the least.
I am a bit concerned when the Minister suggests that the Government concluded that it would be possible to negotiate an agreement with Bord Gáis Éireann which would be satisfactory from the point of view of return to the State for its investment. He refers to the retention by the State of an appropriate level of control over both the distribution project itself and the level of profit which would accrue to private shareholders from the sale of this valuable limited natural resource. We see that only one-third of the voting directors of the company, including the chairman for the first two years, have been appointed by the State. The Government have appointed a senior management official to Dublin Gas to oversee the conversion and development of the project and to oversee the health of the company generally. I would take it that we are referring here to the financial health and stability of the company.
I am sceptical, to say the least, with regard to the agreement which has been reached by the Minister and I voice certain reservations with regard to this order.
On behalf of Fine Gael Members I welcome the motion and express our support for it. It is impossible for us to consider this motion and the order on which it is based without also considering some of the controversy which has raged about this matter in the press and elsewhere over the last few years. It is reasonable for the House to see whether it has a function in that regard and whether it can add to public knowledge by its consideration of these matters.
As I am the proud owner of 100 shares in Dublin Gas, somebody might consider that I have a vested interest in the matter, but that vested interest is so small that it will not significantly affect the contribution which I will make. Nevertheless I would like to put it on the record of the House.
The complexity of the arrangements which have been arrived at between the Minister, acting on behalf of the Government, and Bord Gáis Éireann on the one hand and the Dublin Gas Company on the other, are such as to defy critical examination by this House. I do not believe anyone could understand what the Minister said here today. It may well be that the Minister understands it, but the Minister would not understand it if he was basing his information only on the speech which he has read here. No doubt he has additional information which enables him to understand the background to what he is saying. Therefore, in supporting the motion which is before the House I do so on the basis of my confidence in the integrity and good judgment of the Government rather than on any intellectual commitment or conviction that what has been put before us is right. On the basis of the information which is put before us here, it is impossible to say that this is the correct decision for us to take.
The complex nature of the arrangement can be seen by the examination of one very simple part of it. It is proposed to have a rebate to Dublin Gas by Bord Gáis Éireann in the sum of £42 million, allowing for anticipated inflation, together with a further rebate amounting to £28 million, a total expected rebate of £70 million. If you do not know the price which is being charged in the first instance and if you do not know what the price should be, the fact that you are told that they are being rebated to the extent of £70 million does not mean anything. Therefore, is that sum being rebated from a high price or is it being rebated from a low price? It makes all the difference. We should not gild this occasion with a sense of solemnity which it does not deserve. No Member of this House should be expected to understand the significance of those two sums of money because we do not know on what rate these rebates are based, or whether that rate was adequate.
It is also true to say that a substantial amount of the public criticism of this deal has been based on speculation and inadequate information. Therefore many of the people who would like to portray this as a mistake and to portray the attitude of the Government to Dublin Gas as being unnecessarily protective have not the available information on which to base that decision, no more than we have the available information to base the decision that they are doing the right thing today.
There are, however, a number of strategic decisions to which the Seanad could make a useful contribution but I do not think we can make a contribution to the numbers game because we do not have the back-up information. Among the strategic aspects which we can consider is the effect of the decision to continue with a supply of gas, particularly natural gas, to householders in Dublin and the disruption which can be expected as a result of the decision to convert. The Minister will find himself in considerable difficulty, as being the ultimate guarantor of this conversion programme, unless the conversion programme is executed in a vastly more efficient fashion than was the case in Cork city. He could have a near revolution on his hands. My experience with the conversion programme in Cork which is now coming to its conclusion is that it was handled in a disastrous way. The gas company there, probably because they wished to spare people trouble, indicated that old appliances were capable of being converted and held out that expectation to people and found eventually that that indication could not be delivered on. First-rate customers of the gas company were unable to cook in their homes over a long period because of the manner in which this conversion took place.
The Minister talks about monitoring the over-runs which might arise in this conversion programme. That is an area to which the Minister should give particular attention because, if the experience in Cork city is anything to go by, the kind of numbers we are talking about here will be nothing compared to the increased costs which could arise as a result of an inefficiently executed conversion programme. This is a lot more significant than any individual once-off guarantee which we might decide to give here in the Seanad today.
The Minister and the Government have the information. If the project is successful we will praise them and if it is not we will criticise them, but I do not think it is rational to expect us to be in a position to pass judgment on it. Confident as I am that the Minister would not come in here looking for a State guarantee unless it was absolutely necessary to do so, I feel that the Seanad should agree to extend the State guarantee under the State Guarantees Act, 1954 in respect of the £10 million specifically asked for by the Minister.
I find myself at a loss in trying to discuss the implications of this order. It is a very complex order and to get it at 2.30 p.m. and be expected to digest it while the Minister is speaking is a little bit much, considering that it is a matter of national importance and that a company which is 75 per cent privately owned is being given a State guarantee against loss over the next couple of years. It would appear that the guarantee is to the principal contractor but when one reads on I do not think that is what appears. Bord Gáis Éireann will provide a stand-by facility of £6 million. This will be matched on a pound for pound basis by the banks and will only be drawn down in the event of the debt profile agreed with the banks being exceeded for reasons other than capital costs arising from the conversion and development charges. I would like further clarification of what exactly that means. It is a totally open-ended guarantee if it covers costs being exceeded for reasons other than capital costs arising from the conversion. What exactly is meant by that statement?
In the negotiations that went on between Bord Gáis Éireann and the Dublin Gas Company there was a total divergence of opinion as to where Dublin Gas were going. We had seen public squabbling for a number of years before the Dublin Gas Company were basically taken over by a new group. The new group are apparently committed to bringing the Dublin Gas Company to a financial state where at the end of the day the State will not be a loser.
I agree that the provision of the gas pipeline did create many jobs and the contract was carried out in the fastest time and more efficiently than I have ever seen. Irish workers and the Irish companies involved must be complimented on getting the gas as far as Dublin. I was not too sure of the symbolism of the Minister going around with a brush at the opening of the pipeline yesterday. I was not too sure wherther he was going to plug some sort of a pipe or other.
Just some Spring cleaning.
The gas supply now being available, I sincerely hope that the problems which have arisen in Cork will not continue to arise. The Minister's final statement is that we have taken the first step towards making a reasonably priced, secure indigenous fuel available in houses and businesses throughout the country. Unfortunately this is at the very time when another semi-State body have proposals for closing down a number of power stations which are using indigenous fuel. Some 99 per cent of the fuel that will be used in the Moneypoint project will be foreign fuel. From what I can gather now, the ESB will be selling from Moneypoint fuels to other native users. When we have the possibility of co-operation with the North of Ireland in the mixing of lignite with the crow coal that is available in Arigna, and indeed in other areas of the country, which could be used in industry, it is a pity to see a running down of those facilities at a time when we are talking about maximising the use of indigenous fuels here in Dublin.
It is very hard to discuss this order due to the fact that we only got it just as the Minister began to speak. If it does provide Dublin city with a fuel that is at a reasonable price we must agree with the order. I sincerely hope that by the time it does get to industry the cost of the BTUs that can be produced by this fuel will be less than the cost of oil and the other fuels that are available at present.
I sincerely hope that if in future there is an order of such importance to be presented to the House at least we will have an opportunity of getting the order in time to have a look at it so that we can discuss it in a rational manner. It is a 12-page document which we had to look through while the Minister was speaking and the time available was totally inadequate. I would appeal to the Chair and to the Minister that if ever there is another order of this type coming before the House that we be given the courtesy of getting it beforehand so that we know what is going to be in it and can discuss it in a rational manner. We cannot have a proper discussion on it today.
In supporting this motion in relation to the State Guarantees Act, 1954 (Amendment of Schedule) Order, 1984, to allow the Minister to assist what is in fact a private company, I take Senator Lanigan's point completely and because it is such a complex measure I would not attempt to analyse it fully in view of all the media controversy about this particular deal. I might be a little biased but I am quite satisfied that with somebody of the calibre of the Minister, Deputy Spring, in charge of this Department the State's interest will be protected throughout the whole project even when it comes to full fruition. I am satisfied that the State will be likely to get credit for the amount of money it is making available to the company at this time, particularly in the area of profits in the future — 56 per cent of the profits of the company plus an additional 50 per cent over and above a certain level.
As Senator O'Leary said, without knowledge of some of the figures it would be impossible to comment. To me it sounds a reasonably good deal. If one looks at the advantage of having for the first time natural gas available to us, it was quite likely that we would have to turn to somebody who was already in the business of providing gas to the people of Dublin. They had the natural infrastructure and the expertise available to them. They carried out in an efficient manner the conversion of appliances which are being used throughout the city. I was pleased to see the Minister at his "Spring cleaning" involved in that particular procedure the other day. I am pleased also at the number of jobs protected by the deal which I think has gone unnoticed in much of the controversy. One thousand jobs were protected and a further direct result would gain an additional 700 jobs in further stages of the project.
I would like to join with the Minister in complimenting the people involved in the laying of the gas line. It came right through the heart of the country and although the crow can fly very easily from Cork to Dublin some of the terrain that these people have been involved with in laying these pipelines is not easy to deal with; it crosses all sorts of natural boundaries and rivers. They have done an excellent job and the work force are to be complimented.
In the Minister's speech he referred to the possibility of the distribution of natural gas throughout the country. As he will know in his Department my own county have put proposals to him about the possible extension of this gas line because it passes quite close to two very important industrial towns. First of all, in my own county, Clonmel has already invested a considerable amount of local authority funding which is scarce enough but with the foresight of the corporation and manager there, they have laid a whole new network of pipelines to be ready for connecting to the natural gas line which passes within two miles of Clonmel town. Proposals have been made to the Minister's Department in this regard and I hope that he will consider them as a matter of great urgency because of the public control of the distribution, because of the infrastructural investment that we have made already and because of the vital necessity where there is such a network of gas users in the town of Clonmel.
The town of Tipperary, which has quite a lot of industry, particularly the cooperative movement, could also benefit from a spur from this line which I hope would take off for Limerick city from some place close to Mitchelstown, which also is the home of one of the major cooperatives in this country and which it is technically known can benefit from the extention of natural gas for that type of industry. I would hope that Mitchelstown and, in the process, Tipperary town on the way to Limerick city, would be benefiaries in the not too distant future of this wonderful amenity that we have discovered off our shores in natural gas.
There is also a tremendous case being made by Waterford and the Minister will have an opportunity this weekend to talk to people directly in Waterford about this problem. They also look for the extension there of our natural gas in the future. I hope that in reply the Minister may give some indication to the House when it is likely, now that we have almost completed the work of getting it to Dublin, extensions of natural gas to other areas will be considered. I would like Dublin people to stop calling it "Dublin Gas" because it is Irish gas and, to say the least, Cork gas being distributed throughout Dublin. I hope, now that we have completed that major plan, that we will turn our attention to other areas throughout the country which would benefit equally with the city of Dublin from the distribution of natural gas. I support the order before the House.
At the outset, I would like to thank the Members of the Seanad for their assistance in dealing with this order. Regarding a point made by Senator Lanigan, I appreciate the difficulties which the Senator has experienced, and Senator O'Leary also, in relation to the complexities of an order like this. I would have to say that no information is being released here today which is not well-known already. In the course of replies to questions in the Dáil over the last number of weeks, I reiterated the information in relation to the actual funding and the package in relation to Dublin Gas. I appreciate that Senator Lanigan found himself in a situation something akin to trying to reply to a budget speech, which is virtually impossible given the complexities of a speech like that. I am obeying the orders and procedures of the House but I appreciate the difficulty and obviously it is the sort of matter which the Committee on Procedure and Privileges might like to deal with and I certainly will pass that on to them.
Senator Lynch raised the question of having adequate controls over the distribution of the gas. I am satisfied that we have adequate controls between our directors on the board and in particular in relation to the monitoring committee. The monitoring committee is already in being. The official from my Department is a very experienced technical person and has been involved in this project from the start. I am confident that we will prevent overruns and we will make sure that the project is implemented in the best possible terms.
In relation to the actual funding and the actual cost structure, I have mentioned in relation to the rebates the £42 million in 1981 money terms. Basically it is a rebate on the price and Senator O'Leary was questioning how do we know the significance of a rebate. Obviously the benefit of a rebate only takes meaning when we know the actual prices involved for the gas. As in any other commercial field the price of gas is what you will get for it, like the price of any consumer item. In fact, in the case of Dublin Gas getting, as we are in today's money, a price just under 40p it is a good price by present commercial criteria when you consider that the ESB currently pay in the order of 24p for the equivalent unit of gas. If you look at the rebates we are talking about, £42 million for the conversion rebate, basically what it amounts to is a grant which is passing through to the consumer. It is the consumer who is benefiting in relation to the whole Dublin natural gas project. Also, the second rebate is in relation to a development which is a new link-up for new areas of the city which have not at present a gas distribution facility. In return for these rebates, which are basically grants to the consumers, the existing town gas consumers and the new consumers — who are necessary in fact for the viability of this whole project — the State gets shares in the company and a profit entitlement. I would point out also, that the banks are carrying their share of the risk in this venture by virtue of having £60 million in loans in the whole package.
Senator O'Leary mentioned the Cork gas experience. All in all, the project went well. There were some difficulties in relation to a number of houses; there were delays as some difficulties arose as to whether new stoves would be put in or the old stoves converted. But I think the Cork Gas Company made it clear at all times that they would, in fact, convert or put in new stoves. I believe the difficulties in this area have been sorted out.
Senator Ferris spoke about the situation in relation to the distribution of gas throughout the country and the extension of the project. This is something which I and my Department are at present examining with a view to having the maximum utilisation of natural gas throughout the country. I can assure him that I want to see the benefits accruing and being spread right around rural Ireland where there are suitable town systems and commercial systems available for the project.
Senator Lanigan mentioned the stand-by facility other than capital costs of £6 million. Basically what it means is that we have to look at the profile of the debt due to any shortfall in cash flow at any particular time and this is not related to capital costs. We have to ensure that the profile of the debt is maintained. There are predictions and a certain profile set out for this project. The £6 million stand-by facility from DG is to ensure that this will not bump up at any given time and will not go off the projected line. From that point of view the State and the banks have committed themselves pound for pound to cover any offset in the debt profile.
That summarises what I have to say in relation to this motion. Once again I would like to thank the Members of the Upper House for their co-operation and for facilitating me.
The Minister stated that the banks have a £60 million input into this and they are carrying the risk. Could the Minister give us a guarantee that there is a risk to the banks in this, because we have seen in the past that where banks are involved the only people who come out on top in the end are the banks. I would like a guarantee that the State is not in any way giving a guarantee to the banks that if there is a shortfall that the State will get the banks out of their difficulty. Regarding the shortfall on the debt profile, I am not sure whether the Minister is talking about the initial production stages or about a time when the company are trading and if there is a cash flow shortfall that there is £6 million available. In other words, if the company do not collect their accounts there will be a cash flow shortfall, and is it in this circumstance that the Minister is saying that the State has a £6 million cushion?
If I might reply to these two very relevant questions in relation to the whole project, one would have to say that there is a risk involved in this project given the size of the project and the costings involved. The banks have a risk and they have undertaken a risk in this particular venture and the risk element by the banks is not secured by the State. In relation to the debt profile, that runs from the time of the signing of the agreement right through to 1986. The company are not getting an easy ride from the Government in relation to picking up any shortfall in their debt profile. That goes through to 1986 and ceases then and by 1990 or years later again the company should have reached a solid trading position. At that stage we should be getting our share of the profit, between 70 per cent and 80 per cent, including taxation.
Question put and agreed to.