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Seanad Éireann debate -
Wednesday, 12 Sep 1984

Vol. 105 No. 1

Report of Joint Committee on Small Businesses: Motion.

I move:

That Seanad Éireann takes note of the First Report of the Joint Committee on Small Businesses —Manufacturing Industry.

I do not wish to do any more than move the motion formally except to remark that this is the first occasion on which we have debated one of the reports of the new joint committees which were set up a year ago. There is no time limit on the discussion as this is a Government motion, but I would hope that speeches on it will not be unduly long. As an experiment, this debate has no limitation in time but if the experiment is not successful it may be necessary in the future to introduce limitations.

I add my word of congratulations to Senator Dooge on his appointment to the important EEC Committee. I wish him well in his important task. I welcome the First Report of the Joint Committee on Small Businesses on manufacturing industry and I am pleased to participate in a debate on the report in Seanad Éireann. It is the first occasion on which we have had an opportunity to debate such a report and I will try to touch on the salient points of the report in my speech.

The report covers all the main areas of concern to the small industrialist: (i) Business environment; (ii) Finance; (iii) Management; (iv) Marketing; (v) State Agencies; (vi) Taxation, and (vii) Legal problems.

Through the sixties and seventies the emphasis was placed on the attraction of foreign industry, a strategy which, though successful, is suggested, in the light of hindsight and changing circumstances to be insufficient and inadequate in meeting the employment needs of the country. While considerable emphasis has been and will continue to be placed on the attraction of overseas industry, the development of a strong indigenous small industry sector has not been neglected.

The IDA's small industry programme was launched in 1967 and extended nationwide in 1970. An attractive package of industrial incentives has been made available to the small industrialist under this programme including capital and training grants and rent subsidies, and ready-to-move-into factory accommodation was provided at a wide range of locations throughout the country.

The State aids and support systems for small industry have been continuously modified and adapted to reflect the needs of the small industrialist in changing economic circumstances.

The IDA enterprise development programme was launched in 1978. This programme was specially designed to encourage small business and professional people with the necessary business skills who had not previously owned a business to set up a business of their own. SFADCo were given responsibility in 1978 for the promotion and development of small industry in the mid-west region. Their mandate was to develop and test concepts and systems which would lead to dramatic growth of small indigenous industry in the mid-west region and to do so in a manner which would pioneer future national policies. More recently an enterprise centre was set up in Dublin, another is planned for Cork and a programme for the construction of incubator units for the typical small industry start-up project is under way.

The report identifies the importance of the small industry sector in the economy. There are over 5,000 small manufacturing firms operating in the economy, which account for 90 per cent of units of the total number of manufacturing firms, 40 per cent of total manufacturing employment, 30 per cent of total manufacturing output, and 25 per cent of total industrial exports.

It is interesting to note that, as pointed out in the report, small indigenous industry compares very favourably with foreign industry on the criteria both of durability and the ability to survive. The small industry sector is also the seed bed for new indigenous medium- and large-scale companies There are now 8,000 people employed in 153 large grant-assisted companies which were grant aided under the IDA's small industries programme over the past ten years. It is arguable that in the absence of State support given to small firms many Irish owned companies would not have developed exporting capability.

The report points to the need for a clear and unambiguous national policy on small business development and for identifying and disposing of constraints and contradictions that exist. The recently published White Paper on Industrial Policy fills this vacuum and sets out a comprehensive set of initiatives designed to stimulate the small industry sector, and the creation of strong internationally trading companies.

I am satisfied that the major concerns of the committee have been reflected in the new policies for small industry in the White Paper.

Regarding the business environment, the Government are determined to create an economic environment which will be conducive to industrial development and provide reward for risk takers. The system of grants and incentives helps small firms with the cost of starting up, expanding and modernising capacity. Many firms, however, are not regularly in a position to benefit from these arrangements.

The Government have already taken an important initiative in the area of industrial costs by establishing an industrial costs monitoring group whose role is to monitor and assess the implications of movements in all industrial cost elements including those arising from changes in Government policy. The group's first report is nearing completion and will provide an analysis of the structure of industrial costs and a framework for the future work of the group.

In 1983 a major review was initiated into the electricity industry aimed at identifying areas where economies could be achieved and recommending measures which would enable electricty prices to be brought more into line with other countries. This review too is now nearing completion.

The committee have identified the availability of finance as one of the major problem areas facing small manufacturing companies. The tendency in this country has been for such companies to rely heavily on loan capital with a minimum of equity. This type of high gearing can result in disastrous problems for industry particularly in times of recession when interest rates rise and cash flow dries up rapidly. As outlined in the White Paper on Industrial Policy, the Government are anxious to encourage the provision of a greater level of private risk capital to the traded sectors of the economy and particularly to small and medium sized enterprises. The Minister, Deputy Bruton, has met with the major banks, the Stock Exchange, the pension fund companies and representatives of the insurance industry in order to enlist their views and support in diverting a greater amount of investment to productive enterprises. This dialogue will continue in order to seek actively solutions to the problem.

A major vehicle to encourage the provison of risk capital to industry was introduced in this year's Finance Act. The scheme, which is often referred to as the business expansion scheme, allows individuals who invest in new shares in certain manufacturing and service companies to write off their investment, up to a maximum of £25,000 per annum, against their liability to income tax. As envisaged by the Joint Committee, the Finance Act provides that such investments may be made either individually in specific companies or through designated investment funds. Such funds allow individuals to obtain a fair spread of the risk associated with their investment as well as providing them access to the expertise of fund managers.

Other methods of encouraging investments at institutional level will be examined actively in the foreseeable future. In this context, obviously, the recommendations of the Joint Committee will be seriously considered.

The proposed national development corporation will be a major vehicle for direct State involvement in industry. The corporation will act as a State investment company in existing or new private sector enterprises or in joint ventures with the private or co-operative sectors particularly in the advance technology and natural resources areas. The corporation will assist indigenous industry in building up its capital base and will liaise closely with private venture capitalists in order to ensure that the maximum number of new project opportunities are encouraged.

The Government will be actively encouraging greater flexibility and availability in the context of financing small industry. This will require the encouragement of a change of attitude on the part of entrepreneurs themselves who are very often reluctant to give up part of the ownership of their company in return for equity investment. In addition, the major institutions including the Stock Exchange will be encouraged to examine their existing structures in order to identify how they might best be adapted to suit the needs of small indigenous industry. It must be recognised also that there already exists a generous and comprehensive incentive package for manufacturing industry and that there cannot be any further real increases in the level of Exchequer funding for projects in the immediate years ahead.

Government financial resources are limited and as set out in the White Paper the approach will be one of greater selectivity for grant aiding companies in the small industry programme in order to maximise the use of the limited funds available. The major objective will be to promote the establishment of new firms or the expansion of existing firms which have the capability to develop their operations to the standards to export competitively or to meet the sub-supply requirements of existing large industry. The major shift will be from fixed assets investment to technology acquisition and export marketing.

Under the heading of management, research on business success and business failure reaches a universal conclusion that effective management is the key ingredient of success and weak or inadequate management is the primary cause of failure. While the basic management functions are the same for small and large businesses, the smaller business must rely on one person to carry out the wide range of managerial tasks and is, therefore, totally dependent on that person's skill, energy and commitment.

Improving the quality of management in small business therefore, essential as it is, poses problems of its own, not the least of which is that of the manager taking time away from his business. For this reason the bias in the recommendations in the report towards the provision of training on a regional basis is to be welcomed together with the emphasis on follow-up in the forum of counselling and coaching services to ensure implementation of what has been learned at management training courses.

Emphasis is given too, to the need for State agencies such as AnCO, IMI and IPC to come together in jointly organising and undertaking training courses for small businesses. These recommendations are, of course, closely in line with the plans outlined in the White Paper on Industrial Policy as indeed is the recommendation which would place greater emphasis on the assessment of management capability prior to approval of grant aid. Industrial training has an important role to play in industrial development. AnCO's sectoral approach is a particularly valuable asset in this area. The considered response of the industrial training services to industrial development needs will be set out in the forthcoming White Paper on Manpower Policy.

Regarding second level education, the report's concern for more relevant business curricula in second level education is one I share. There is an urgent need to bring schools and industry closer together. Our future prosperity depends upon the wealth created in the productive sector of the economy. Innovative thinking and a positive approach to risk-taking must be encouraged. This reality must be foremost in the minds of educators. Increased emphasis must be placed on the preparation of young high achievers for careers in the productive sector. I want to see students at second and third level education institutes encouraged to think about going into business themselves and to seek out opportunities to set up their own enterprises.

The Joint Committee have commented on the particular difficulties experienced by small firms in regard to State procurement. The difficulties experienced by Irish firms generally in this area formed part of the agenda at a conference with the chairmen, chief executives and directors of the commercial State-sponsored bodies in the industrial and energy fields held under the chairmanship of the Minister, Deputy Bruton, in June 1983. I have subsequently met on an individual basis with the chief executives of these companies. The object of the discussions was to examine how mechanisms could be put in place within State companies to give Irish firms and suppliers every opportunity to compete for their business. Rather than asking the State companies involved to reward non-competitiveness or to establish a "Buy Irish" ethos for the sake of buying Irish, emphasis was placed on the positive advantages which exist in seeking out local suppliers who may potentially be in a position to offer a better deal.

Specific initiatives being examined include development contracts, where State companies would work with potential suppliers and possibly bear or share the cost of development work. The scope for longer periods for contracts and the possibility of splitting up large contracts to enable local suppliers to compete are other areas being examined. I am hopeful that the initiatives taken by the bodies themselves together with follow-up action by my Department and the Irish Goods Council will lead to increased opportunities for Irish firms in the future. In addition, existing procedures in relation to the award of public contracts are under review by an inter-departmental committee and I am confident that the committee's recommendations in this area will be among the issues considered.

One of the main recommendations of the Joint Committee in relation to domestic marketing is that the Irish Goods Council would be reconstituted as a new Irish Marketing Board. Whether this would be merged with the Export Marketing Board — Córas Tráchtála — is not mentioned in the report. However, the merits or otherwise of a merger between the Irish Goods Council and CTT have already been considered by the Government and the agencies themselves with the conclusion that such a merger would not be in the interests of industrial development. The activities of the Irish Goods Council are complementary to, and do not duplicate, those of CTT or other organisations. The task of the IGC is to assist firms, through the development of marketing skills, to increase sales on the Irish market, where over half of manufacturing output is sold. If the IGC was merged with CTT then it is likely that as part of the Irish Export Board there would be a reduction in the focus on the domestic market which could result in lost sales.

Since its establishment in 1978, the council's name and activities have become widely known to the public and throughout industry. The council is particularly well known to the small business sector, to which much of its programmes are directed. The Sectoral Development Committee in its report on industry noted that "within its limited resources the Irish Goods Council achieves much. By firms, it is regarded as down-to-earth, practical and in no way distant. Their walk-before-run approach has great relevance to the needs of small Irish non-exporters". The council, understandably, would not welcome a change in its name as it would effectively have to rebuild its image and reputation in industry.

With the handing over of the Guaranteed Irish Scheme to private industry, the IGC has been able to devote more attention to the urgent task of assisting industry in indigenous marketing. The council is already engaged in many of the areas of marketing and promotion recommended in the Joint Committee's report. For example, the council has over the years initiated and developed a number of group marketing schemes whereby firms within the same product sector are brought together under the auspices of the council to share some of their marketing activities. As economies of scale are secured, the cost to the individual firm is reduced.

These schemes serve as a basis for introducing firms to the benefits of marketing activities and the firms benefit from being part of a dynamic marketing group. Participating firms also benefit substantially from the group's professional corporate image and are assisted by the council in obtaining national media coverage and increased sales orders resulting from trade fairs and exhibitions. The council is very anxious to develop more joint marketing groups and would welcome more support and co-operation from industry, particularly small firms.

The committee has recommended that the IGC should provide a marketing consultancy service together with marketing information and analysis to individual firms. The marketing support service which the council provides broadly meet this recommendation. These services include test marketing, product promotion, print and promotional design, and market research and information.

One of the most important initiatives outlined in the White Paper on Industrial Policy is the proposed development of a National Linkage Programme. The IDA have been given responsibility for the development and implementation of this programme. The National Linkage Programme, launched in November 1983, has the following major elements:

(i) a comprehensive data base containing details of the raw material and component requirements of large industries together with a capability register of subcontractors and suppliers. This data base will be integrated fully with the existing IIRS information service;

(ii) selective promotion and development of the programme around firms and individuals who have been clearly identified as having potential for success; and

(iii) co-ordination of State support and assistance for marketing, product and process development, and quality control during the critical initial business development period.

Initially the National Linkage Programme will be concentrated on the electronics sector, which is the fastest growth sector of Irish industry. It has annual raw material-component requirements of £400 million of which only 16 per cent are supplied by Irish firms. The programme will be extended to other sectors at a later stage.

To complement the efforts of IDA, a unit with specific responsibility for linkage has been established with the IIRS. IIRS staff are being assigned to IDA's major overseas offices to promote technology acquisition. They will also foster linkage opportunities. The IDA will work closely with the Irish Goods Council and SFADCo in developing this programme.

Regarding quality control, the Institute for Industrial Research and Standards has been assigned a much more active developmental role in the process of improving the productive potential of indigenous SMEs, small and medium size enterprises. This new role will put the institute into a position to respond to many of the concerns of the Joint Committee. The main focus of the work of the institute will be in helping firms to upgrade their product and production processes and thereby compete effectively on international markets.

The institute has prepared a comprehensive programme to improve the level of quality awareness in Irish industry. This programme is aimed particularly towards the small Irish manufacturer who requires familiarity with quality assurance techniques to become a supply source to large international companies in Ireland and abroad. Irish industry will have to take greater account of quality. It is in every company's interest to implement a quality control programme.

The Irish Quality Control Association plays a very important role through its quality mark and quality control award schemes. If Irish industry is to continue to compete successfully on the home and export markets, "made in Ireland" must become synonymous with quality. As announced in the White Paper on Industrial Policy, in order to ensure a greater awareness of the need for proper quality control the IDA, SFDACo and CTT will not in future pay grants to companies unless they are satisfied the company is operating effective quality control procedures. I see this, rather than the introduction of a grant package scheme specifically for quality control, as the key to greater participation by Irish firms in quality control matters.

I would now like to turn to the marketing area which I feel the committee quite rightly dealt with in detail in its report. Most of the items under this heading in the report have, as I am sure Senators are aware, been dealt with in Chapter 6 of the White Paper on Industrial Policy and proposals for their implementation are already being put in train. These initiatives are designed to address identified weaknesses and to help raise the level of export performance in the following areas: (i) Market entry and development; (ii) Market research; (iii) Group marketing for small exporters; (iv) Building marketing strength in firms; (v) Export services; (vi) Warehousing; (vii) Distributor support programmes. However, there are some points which are not specifically dealt with in the White Paper and it is to these in particular that I would like to turn my attention.

The committee in recommendation (iii), page 27, state that marketing grant assistance should be based on the submission of a detailed marketing plan. I would not wish this recommendation to be interpreted by intending exporters, particularly the smaller ones, as another bureaucratic stumbling block which could cost time and money. We all recognise that in the present climate it is essential that the best use be made of the limited resources available and to this end it is sensible that public money be provided only where there is a reasonable expectation of a return on that investment. In this context an acceptable marketing plan must be a prerequisite for grant assistance. I can assure all those concerned, however, that CTT will be only too pleased to provide advice and assistance, at no cost to the exporter, in the preparation of such a document.

The committee also referred to the setting up of a sales agency service. This idea is one that has been given quite an amount of consideration in recent times. I am confident that the proposals contained in Chapter 6.9 of the White Paper regarding group marketing schemes for small exporters will meet many of the problems referred to by the committee and will serve to provide small exporters with a launching pad for their products in foreign markets. I am satisfied that the group marketing scheme is the best mechanism for small exporters to gain entry to foreign markets. A sales agency service, apart from the cost involved, could cause confusion and duplicate much of the services now being provided by CTT.

Recommendation (v) of the report relating to grant assistance for new marketing or trading companies is one which I would have serious doubts about. The whole thrust of the proposals in the White Paper for Industrial Policy is to build marketing strengths within exporting firms themselves. While this does not rule out the establishment of specialised marketing firms, I am inclined to think that the optimum benefit for State funds will be got from pursuing those proposals rather than grant assisting specialised marketing firms. Again there is the danger that in many cases, these might serve to duplicate activities and services already provided by CTT.

Recommendation (vii) deals with the increased use of embassies in the export promotion effort. This, of course, is a good general approach and is followed where practicable. It will be appreciated that it has to be departed from frequently because of differences in qualifications and experience of personnel. Moreover, as the different State agencies involved in our export efforts go about their own business it may not be necessary to involve the embassy.

The proposal that embassies should assume responsibility for trade missions, which is the second element of this recommendation, is, in my opinion, not necessarily the best appoach. The existing arrangement is that trade missions are organised by CTT in direct contact with exporters and can cater for their suddenly changing needs. This approach has proven satisfactory and, might I add, very successful down all the years. I see no reason for a change.

My final comment in relation to the recommendations on marketing relates to recommendation (xiii) on page 29 which states that there should be a switch in emphasis from trade missions to direct company aid. I feel that direct aid to companies should not be effected at the expense of trade mission activity. Both are essential ingredients in any genuine programme of assistance to small companies and both in their own way reap real benefits for the community at large.

One point which relates to exports but is not dealt with in the marketing section of the report is the recommendation on export finance and insurance. The committee recommend more flexible adaptation of existing export credit finance and insurance schemes for the needs of small businesses. I would like to point out that the Export Credit Advisory Committee was established recently in my Department with a view to seeking for appropriate improvements in these schemes.

The ECAC is examining this matter in detail and has asked the Insurance Corporation of Ireland to identify areas where greater flexibility may be introduced particularly in such areas as selection of markets and range of turnover offered for insurance. The ICI is examining this matter and will be reporting back to the Export Credit Advisory Committee shortly.

I am satisfied that the White Paper proposals for the Regionalisation of State Services to Small Industry adequately reflect the concerns of the committee in regard to the need to ensure more effective co-ordination among the State agencies dealing with the small industry sector.

The IDA are at present fully regionalising their services to small industry. Primary responsibility for the administration of the programme is being devolved to the regional offices. The regionalisation of these services will be achieved not by additional staff but by re-allocating existing IDA staff. The small industrialist is often confused by the large number of State agencies offering advice and assistance. From now on, the IDA will have the responsibility of co-ordinating the whole range of State agencies offering advice and assistance to small firms both on a national and regional basis — with the exception of the mid-west and west and south-west Offaly for which SFADCo have responsibility and of the Gaeltacht for which Údarás na Gaeltachta have responsibility.

In order to provide a more co-ordinated service, IIRS technology specialists are being located in all of the regions and they will work in association with the IDA's regional managers. Small industries boards representative of both the public and private sectors will be established to decide on small industry grants in each of the IDA regions.

The regionalisation will be undertaken in two phases commencing with the south-west, south east, Donegal, and east regions in January 1985. The second phase will be extended to the remainder of the country in the spring of 1985. In the future, a selected regional office will act as a "one-stop shop" for State advisory and support services, including training, for small industries. Work on the establishment of these shops has been started by the Management Committee on Industrial Policy.

I should mention also that SFADCo, as part of their role for the development of small indigenous industry, have been given a responsibility in the White Paper for conducting a pilot project on the development of the food processing sector. The emphasis will be on developing and testing initiatives and programmes in consumer products and the development of a quality based, market oriented secondary processing sector.

Recent years have seen an increasing number of Irish companies collapsing often in dubious circumstances. There has been a growing concern at the extent of malpractice in companies and particularly in the widespread abuse of limited liability status. The Minister, Deputy Bruton, has already stated in the Oireachtas that he is examining a substantial Bill the objective of which is to reform company law in order to deal with abuse of limited liability status. The Minister expects to get the approval of the Government as quickly as possible for the formal drafting of the provisions involved.

While, of course, it would not be appropriate to disclose the details of the Bill at this stage, I can say that it will deal with the major abuses of limited liability which have been highlighted in recent years, including, for example, the activities of unscrupulous company directors.

I hope that, in my relatively brief contribution to the debate, I have been able to reflect Government thinking and the thinking of my Department on small industry and on small and medium sized businesses. I hope, too, that I have responded in some measure to the points made in the committee's report. It is an unusual debate in so far as I am not concluding, but if there are points of principle or other points which Senators wish to have clarified I undertake now to respond positively to such queries from Senators.

First of all, we should thank the Minister for an unusually long ministerial speech of 25 pages in a debate in this House. This shows that his Department did a fair amount of research and went through the recommendations of this committee which were made public earlier this year. When people look back on the work done by these committees this committee will stand out on its own. I do not say that because I am a member. This committee has done more work in the past 12 months than any of the other committees. In fact, this is the first report of any committee to come before either House of the Oireachtas. The work put into it by the Chairman, the Clerk, Mr. Shane McAuley, and the members is a tribute to them. When they first saw the report many people said it would receive general party agreement with regard to the future of small industries. When we look at the recommendations of the committee and see that people with differing political views could agree on the basic principles of such items as finance, management, marketing, taxation, and even legal problems, we realise that when there is a will to develop our country we can make progress.

The Minister's speech is a synopsis of the work done by the committee. We can take it that the committee heard submissions from a large number of bodies. One thing is lacking and that is the fact that there is not privilege for people who attend and make submissions to those committees. The same privilege which prevails at parliamentary level should be available to members and to people who make submissions. Without that, people are sometimes inhibited from saying what they want to say.

This report, from chapters 1 to 7, makes interesting reading even for those people who are already involved in small businesses. It could become for them a textbook and a manual from which they could take the various items of benefit to their own industry or their own small business. We must allow for failure because every business that is started is not guaranteed 100 per cent success. Indeed, the Irish have often been the best knockers of their own. The often knocked the person who tried to set up a small business at the crossroads to employ four or five people more than the multinationals did who came in and plundered this country and left when it suited them.

If we look back on the employment created we see that 90 per cent of the total number of manufacturing firms are within the small business sphere. These produce 40 per cent of total manufacturing employment, 30 per cent of total manufacturing output and 25 per cent of total industrial exports. That shows the importance of small businesses. This report is an encouragement to the people who are in small business. It is also a recommendation to the Government on how items such as finance should be approached.

I hope the recommendation on the availability of Government loan schemes, of section 84 loan schemes to small firms, is acceptable. This would lead to better liaison between banks and small firms. It may be time for the Central Bank to look at the possibility of allowing more competition in the banking system. At the moment the choice of financial institutions available to anybody starting up a business is very limited. It appears that the financial institutions want to deal only with the very large or the very small companies. They do not seem to want to deal with companies in the middle bracket. If the Central Bank showed more flexibility about companies raising finance outside the country from reputable lending institutions who were prepared to bring foreign capital into this country, that would help medium sized businesses.

Chapter 3 deals with management. The Minister mentioned AnCO, the IMI and the IPC. We all know that many small business owners would be delighted to take courses but, due to the pressure of managing their own business and keeping the train on the rails, so to speak, they cannot avail of weekly or fortnightly courses. These organisations should examine the possibility of providing some type of residential weekend courses for management staff in small businesses. AnCO operates a very good scheme on a residential basis for people who are about to set up their own industry. People who are already in industries should be given an opportunity to take weekend courses or seminars provided by these bodies.

The Minister also mentioned education. Second level education has not been gearing people for manufacturing industry for many years. Some type of technical education should be available in our schools for people who are more inclined to join manufacturing industries than to follow academic careers.

The Irish Goods Council were also mentioned. They do a good job for the home market. CTT are doing excellent work throughout the world on behalf of Irish companies. It is slightly annoying to me that CTT's recommendations are not always accepted by some of the other State agencies. Indeed, there is duplication at times of the research carried out on the feasibility of projects by CTT and the IDA. One body or the other should be responsible for carrying out market research. When this type of investigation which is totally necessary is being carried out there should be better liaison between the two organisations. Recently it has come to my notice that this has been a problem. The IDA now have a marketing section which carries out research on their behalf while the same work is being done by CTT for people who are interested in undertaking projects.

There is also mention of venture capital in this report. We are talking at the moment about taking levies from the banks. This may be a good idea but much of that levy should be directed towards venture capital administered through some type of State agency. Most businesses fail due to lack of working capital rather than anything else. That has always been the greatest crippling force as far as business is concerned. If new businesses are forced to expand rapidly to meet increased markets, they are more vulnerable than anybody else due to the fact that they have not got sufficient working capital, or have not generated sufficient profits.

On the marketing side State agencies often put in a lot of effort on behalf of an individual but when the time comes that person may not deliver. There should be some type of levy system introduced whereby State agencies and State marketing organisations would receive a percentage from the companies responsible prior to the carrying out of an investigation. I am talking about a small percentage of the potential profits from those ventures. Money like this taken by a State agency could be used at a later stage to finance further marketing on behalf of small companies.

The Minister in his speech referred to the IIRS. The work done by that State agency is of a very high standard and I do not think they were entitled to all the criticism that they received in the last 12 months. Some people in an organisation may make mistakes but that does not mean that everybody in that organisation are not pulling their weight. I hope the Minister, and his Department, accepts this report as a guideline for the future development of small businesses, a guideline that will give people the incentive to invest here. I hope it gives those with ability to create jobs an opportunity of gaining wealth for themselves in the process. It is only by the use of this wealth that they will be in a position to increase employment and in doing so help to reduce the number of unemployed.

Taxation was mentioned in the report also. It deals with some of the taxation problems that arise for small businesses. They can be crippling. There should be a further look at the taxation system and the amount of red tape that exists. While this does not come within the Minister's area of responsibility he should convey to his colleague, the Minister for Finance, that it is time the red tape with regard to PRSI, PAYE and VAT was reduced to the minimum as far as small businesses are concerned.

I hope the Minister, and his Department will take the recommendations of this committee to heart. The recommendations have general consensus. We should remember that whatever is done here in the future as far as small businesses are concerned will be done by Irish people investing in their own country, prepared to take the risks to give others employment and the right to earn a wage rather than by living, as many of them are forced to do today, on social welfare. Many of them live below the level necessary to give them a decent standard of living. I should like to thank the Minister for the time he gave to the House. I hope that the Department, and the Department of Finance, will act on the guidelines in the report.

I should like to join with other speakers in congratulating Senator Dooge on his appointment to the EEC position and wish him well. I should like to endorse the remarks of Senator Ellis to the Minister congratulating him on the extensive report he read out. I believe that when he leaves the House he will appeal to the Government, as this is one of the first reports from a committee, to adopt this report which has all-party agreement. A lot of work was put into it. Deputy Ivan Yates is an excellent Chairman of the committee and Senator Michael Lynch an excellent Vice-Chairman. We have a very good committee. Members attended all meetings and spent many hours. We had a meeting last night and another this morning. A lot of work was put into the preparation of the report and, as Senator Ellis said, there was full agreement by all parties. It is an example of how people from all sides can reach agreement and work for the good of the country. That was a very good start.

I should like to refer to a statement by the Minister which is very important for business people and for the economy. He said that a Bill is about to be introduced dealing with limited liability companies. Such companies can start up in business today, register for £100 but go out of business tomorrow and leave a trail of debts behind them. Very often they put other people out of business. We had a recent case of a long established garage having to close one of its branches. The staff were called together and it was pointed out that the survival of so many jobs in the company would mean the closing of their branch. The company got agreement from the workers to accept a redundancy payment of one week's wages for each year they were employed.

The workers accepted that in the spirit that they were maintaining in employment some of their colleagues. It was very good example. Those people are still in business, employing people and paying their way. We have the example of another company — I have to name it — the PMPA. In my view they have been the greatest fraud that this country has known since Shanahan stamps. A number of the companies of that group have gone out of business but had the State not intervened we would have about 300,000 people driving around without any motor insurance. The PMPA went to the High Court and got permission to sell off ten of their garages. Having got permission in the High Court to do that they offered them for sale in one lot knowing that nobody could buy ten garages. However, they would have been bought by different people but the PMPA insured they would not. The result is that the PMPA are in business under a different name and all the money due to people — some of it was due to small firms — was wiped out overnight. They are not honouring their payments. That was bad enough but then they decided that in their insurance company they would create redundancies. What did they do then? They made an offer of four weeks wages, in addition to the statutory week, for every year of employment to let go 30 or 40 people. What happened? One hundred applied for redundancy because the terms were so good. They are the same people who made those who made sacrifices look foolish. They had a friendly society in which people invested their life savings and big sums of money in the hope of getting an attractive rate of interest but now that company has gone and the present company is offering the people 12p for every pound they invested. At the same time they can still afford the luxury of offering a redundancy payment of three or four weeks pay for each year worked to every member of their insurance staff. That is crazy. The sooner the Minister gets a Bill through to stop this kind of operation the better it will be for the country as a whole. Otherwise, we will have chain reaction linked to other liquidations because people are not being paid for their work. The Minister told us he will respond to any questions put. I should like to ask the Minister to ask the Government to implement the recommendations in the report.

I should like to join with previous speakers in congratulating Senator Dooge on his appointment. I should like to thank the Minister for the serious thought he and his Department have given to this report. I am heartened, as a member of the committee, by the response of the Minister today. While in some areas his views differ from those of the committee I am sure he will agree that the report needs to be studied in depth. I should like to mention a few aspects of the report but before doing so I join with other Members in paying a special tribute to the members of the committee who have met for very long hours to deal with this topic. The report represents a very serious in depth study by a committee which is deeply involved in identifying the future employment potential of many areas. We seek a better structured way of working. We have heard new ideas and the result of research by a consultative committee. The committee sits longer than most committees working out the nitty gritty often until late hours in the night. I should like to pay a special tribute to the Chairman, Deputy Ivan Yates, who has put tremendous energy into the preparation of this report and a subsequent report which will come before the House later. I should also like to pay tribute to the Clerk of the committee, Mr. Shane McAuley, and I consider the committee are very lucky to have him.

The report, if nothing else, has created a full awareness of the financial problems and highlighted the many areas where change is urgently needed. I have always said that industrial development here was to a large degree under threat since our accession to the EEC. It was recognised by many State agencies, Governments and politicians that our industrial base could suffer and that our manufacturing firms, unless they adopted changes in patterns and trade, would suffer. With the influx of manufactured goods from other countries unless we are prepared to meet that challenge we will continue to suffer. The report also highlights the fact that in many areas we have contributed in one way or another to many of the problems that manufacturing industry is facing today. There are many areas in this report I could highlight and yet be doing a grave injustice to the entire report. I recommend that the report be studied by all politicians, manufacturers and the State agencies. In dealing with the problem facing small firms the report identifies marketing as a problem area. Management has also been identified as a problem area.

The committee, after carrying out an in-depth study into the various areas of business environment, management, marketing, finance and the State agencies, offered in a conscientious manner a solution to many of the problems encountered. I note the Minister referred to the financial burden that could be placed on the Exchequer but the report, as far as we could manage, is cost-effective. We are in the process of preparing a report on the retail and distributive sectors and we recognise that the future of the retailing and distributive sectors depends to a large degree on our own indigenous manufacturers. The committee has done one great service, especially in our findings in the last week or so, in that it has brought a great awareness to the retail and distributive sectors of the vital necessity of producing, manufacturing and selling Irish goods.

The report recognises that grants for small indigenous industries may not be the answer to many of the problems facing the industry, but at the same time we recognised the fact that the availability of finance by the banking institutions, as Senator Ferris referred to, over the past number of years deserved the criticism of the committee. The banking institutions have literally mortgaged the homes and lives of many of the small business people here. Since this committee was formed I have had numerous requests from small manufacturers who have set up business in premises which are already secured with secondhand machinery and who will not be grant-aided. The committee made a recommendation on that. Those people left the dole queues, had their ideas and took premises but having done so found they had to fight for a few pounds of a cash grant-aid because the machinery was secondhand. I hope we will be able to unwind some of the red tape that is strangling industrialists here.

As the first speaker from the Labour Party I should like to take this opportunity to congratulate Senator James Dooge on his appointment and wish him every success in his future role. As a Member who has worked with Senator Dooge I know that his qualifications and work ability will bring him success in the future.

I welcome this report from the committee. It is great to see an Oireachtas committee producing a final report for debate in the Seanad. It is a recognition that the day of the small businesses has come when so many of our top people, through no fault of their own, are being made redundant in various big companies. We have available to us a great workforce, including electricians, plumbers, accountants and solicitors, something we did not have before. People skilled and unskilled are now being made redundant. They carry with them from large companies expertise gained from many years of work.

They have expertise in the work they were engaged in in those companies and can bring that with them to form small business units. It is a unique opportunity for us to have those skills available to us. It is sad that it is presented to us now because of the economic climate, but, nevertheless, it is there. People who have worked in those companies through the years have acquired skills in marketing, accounting, engineering, electronics and all the fields that would help them to set up businesses in the future. There are markets available all over the world and the people I am referring to, in their time spent in these companies, have acquired skills to sell on those markets and have had useful introductions to people at home and abroad who would purchase goods. There are great opportunities for such people if they set up a small business. This report is trying to establish that skilled people are available who in a small way can contribute to our economy.

It is important that the IDA, the ICC and other semi-State bodies come to grips with the situation. They have at their disposal people with many skills. In Kildare when Black and Decker closed down — that was a major blow for that county — it was decided to form various enterprise units. Those enterprise units are doing extremely well with people who worked in that company setting up small business. They have come together under one roof and set up the businesses. The Minister has said that there are about 5,000 small manufacturing companies operating in this country and that finance was a major problem for many of them. I agree with that statement. Not only is that a major factor but there are many other factors of importance to those people. First of all, they need a place to work. Secondly, they need facilities from banks. Thirdly, they need a market. They need production equipment. In some cases people have bought machinery from companies that have gone into liquidation at a low rate. There is no way that the IDA, for example, will give a grant for such equipment. That is one area the IDA should be looking at. If a person is willing to set up in business and does not have finance — men or women made redundant will have very little finance available to them — and purchase a machine the IDA should grant-aid that purchase. I see no reason why it should not be grant-aided. That is only one area.

Another area concerns the place where the person works. The IDA had a policy of building all of these units. I welcome the fact that the IDA are adopting a better and more reasonable approach to this in that they are going for smaller units. It is important to build small units. When a person starts up first he does not need a big area. As the business grows he can move into a bigger unit. The policy should be to build smaller units.

I presume that we are all the time talking about individuals starting up their own small units with a maximum work force of about 20 people. When he starts off at first he will have only one or two people but if he cannot take advantage of a small unit from the IDA his rent should at least be subsidised for a period of 18 months. I welcome the scheme the Minister for Labour has brought in of giving £50 per week to a married man, or woman, who decides to set up his or her own business. That is a very good scheme. It was properly thought out and will get some people back to work. If people do not get back to work a short time after being made redundant then as time elapses they will find it very difficult to return to their old work load. The back-up service of the scheme is equally important. The way that the person is identified for that amount of money is important also. There is no point in giving the £50 to somebody who will not succeed. Therefore, the follow-up is vital. The fact that Manpower follow it up, get involved in the businesses and identify weaknesses and strengths is important. There is no point in setting somebody up with £50 a week and finding after five weeks that because of one problem or another — lack of finance from a bank or other problems — he has to stop operations.

It is important that the person have the facility of lawyers, accountants and bankers available to him. There is no reason why the community should not give that kind of a service. It is in the interest of a solicitor, an accountant or a banker to give their services free, not in the same because he will give him work when he gets bigger and can pay it back. It is to their advantage to do that and we should encourage it. We should ask the bodies concerned, the chartered accountants, the bankers and all of the other groups to give their service free, not in the same way as the free legal aid because that is paid for by the Government but to give it free or else at a very small sum. It is vital that a person has that type of encouragement starting out because the first few months of starting up a business are vital. A business can fall for one reason or another.

I will not criticise the banks here but the way their personnel sections handle these unfortunate people looking for a loan or an overdraft leaves much to be desired. They require so much security, they need the client's life assurance policy or the deeds to his house before they can actually give him a loan of about £2,000. To me that is very bad and is a very poor reflection on the banking system. Recently I had a client who was refused by all three banks for an overdraft facility of £2,500, which was very small. If he did not get it his business would have folded. It was that desperate. He had to have material to carry on the following week. The banks would not give the money but a new bank gave it because I put down the proposal to them and they accepted it. The other banks were wrong. In the case I have just talked about money was held up by the tax inspector on C45. That money was actually secured there but could not be released because the tax inspector had not got around to dealing with the case. There was no need for it. The banks should play a more important role in such matters.

There is also the role of school training. Our students are faced with a totally different situation than we were faced with when we were young. We were told to learn algebra, geometry and history, that that was all that mattered. Now the whole emphasis is on getting a job. It did not matter to us what happened because there were so many jobs available and if there were not we could go to England. There was no problem there but a major problem is facing young people today. They should be trained properly in our schools. The future role of the country is in electronics. Pupils should be trained in the use of electronics and taught how to run their own businesses.

This is a very good and interesting report and it should be read by everybody. It really is up to the people who operate this. I have seen the situation with the IDA and ICC, the long delays and the amount of paper work that is involved. This ties business up and it strangles them in some cases. The attitude of the Revenue Commissioners in the initial operation of a business about the repayment of VAT, which is a source of working capital for a company, must be mentioned. The money is not given back in time and this causes more and more problems for the individual where there is no need for it. I mention also the attitude of the inspectors dealing with sub-contractors, people who have not got their sub-contractor's certificate because they are not eligible. In such cases there is a deduciton at source of 35 per cent and there are long delays in getting the money back. By using very simple administrative procedures there should not be any undue delay in dealing with such matters. It is very difficult for the individual who is out working to have the time to follow up all these matters. The accountant is the most important person in this area with regard to getting money into the business. If there was more emphasis by the Government in asking the institutes to help individuals setting up on their own it would be much better.

The other area of great growth in this country for small businesses is the co-operative society. The co-operative movement is only in its infancy but it has not really been thought out properly or grasped by the IDA. It has not really been encouraged as it should be. I am involved in a co-op that nearly fell through because of delays by the IDA and the ICC. When the IDA, the ICC, AnCO and the banks were brought together in one room it was amazing what happened because all the problems were then identified. They all knew exactly where they were going and immediately they helped the company and now it is highly successful. All of these things are crucial to a company starting off.

The expertise of the Irish Goods Council was referred to in the report. They are doing a tremendous job in this country. It must be emphasised to the individuals that business has become very complex now. It is all right to be able to go out and make a carpet but you have to sell it and be paid for it. If an individual is successful he will employ more and more people. The history of the small businessman is that he will plough any money he has back into the company and give more employment. That has always been his philosophy and it always will be. He should be encouraged more and more from the start to use all the facilities available to him, not asking for anything that is not due to him, and he should not be hampered by all of this paper work. In Kildare we have 26 people who started up businesses themselves and who are drawing £50 a week. I am qualified in accounting and I suggested I would set up classes for them in September to instruct them in basic bookkeeping, costing, how to deal with banks, how to set up a limited company, how to deal with customers and how to deal with the IDA. It was amazing the number of people who did not really understand how a bank account works. The IDA is a place up there so far removed from them they do not understand it. All of those things are simple if they are explained properly to them. AnCO could take over that type of course. By explaining these matters you give confidence to people starting up a business and this is what they need. A lot of these people have been hurt already. Some of them have been in secure jobs all their lives, giving of what they had to the company and then they find the company, through no fault of theirs, goes into liquidation and they are out. Now they have a second chance to start again but if that second chance is not a winner they could find themselves in grave difficulty for the rest of their lives. It is important that all of these bodies be aware of these things and of the human aspect and that they guide, help and instruct the people involved so that they will be successful. They can be successful and they can contribute to the growth of this country. They can contribute to employment and give the country a great boost of confidence.

I, too, would like to offer my congratulations to our colleague, Senator Jim Dooge, Leader of the House, on his appointment as Chairman of the Spaak Committee that will take on a very important role in the EEC. While I suppose it might be out of order to say so, nevertheless we look forward to that committee revitalising many of the structures which, we hope, will be of great benefit and support to very many small businesses and small private concerns throughout the country.

This is one of the very first reports from the new committee system that we have been considering in the House. I want very sincerely to compliment the Joint Committee on Small Businesses and every member of that committee for their work and for the very fine and concise report. I know that the report before the House this evening does not purport to encompass the entire range of duties or the entire spectrum of business interests and the range of areas which the committee may get around to examine but, nevertheless, it identifies many important problems. I wish the work of the committee success and I look forward to a continuation of that work on an ongoing basis.

The report is extremely useful but it will be absolutely useless unless the powers-that-be take heed of the recommendations and that we bring our public administration into line with the present-day work practices of the small, hard-pressed business person. I hope that the Minister, his Department and the semi-State organisations under his care will also move with the times. I earnestly hope that legislation will be introduced very soon to meet the problems that small businesses are facing.

It is difficult to define a small business. When we think of businesses we think of manufacturing industry and we think of huge multi-national factories. In the EC a small business is defined as an outlet with fewer than 100 employees. That used to be the situation a few years ago but perhaps it has changed now. If we had a factory in any of our county towns with 100 employees it would not be a small business. We would be very proud of it and caring about it.

Over the last couple of years since this present economic depression started there have been quite a number of businesses, big and small forced out of production for a number of reasons. If one reads the papers or the economic magazines, of which there are a few in this country, and the considered articles they produce from time to time, one cannot but feel that many of these firms have been forced into liquidation or forced to cease trading because lending agencies, the banks or ICC have pulled the plug. That brings me to a point which I think is of the utmost importance. It is high time that the people who present themselves as assisting the development of this country, such as the banks, the ICC which is a semi-State organisation and all the financial institutions, should clearly say what is their policy to help small businesses. I should like to hear them say that they are in favour of the preservation of jobs and employment and that they are in favour of retaining the maximum number of jobs. But when one looks at closures one finds that a semi-State organisation like the ICC have a preferential claim as lenders. What is the difference between moneys owing to a semi-State organisation like Irish Steel, the ESB or Bord Telecom and moneys that are on loan from the ICC or ACC? The lending people have a preferential claim and they can just shove a firm into liquidation whereas the others, which are equally supported by the taxpayer, have not got the same rights. I think that the legislation here which controls all that area should be looked at and amended. I firmly believe that if the lending agencies had not got a preferential claim on the assets of firms that are going through a difficult period they would not be in such a hurry to liquidate them or to appoint a receiver. We are losing hundreds of jobs because unfortunate firms have to deal with people who have absolutely no interest in anything but returning a profit for their own particular empire.

At a time in this country where there is record unemployment, where so many firms are losing out, where people are putting in tremendous efforts to maintain their place in the home market and export market, the only people making a profit seem to be the lending agencies. Is that right? Surely the Government have an obligation to look at that? It does not add up. I am not a mathematician but I cannot understand how that situation comes about, why people who invest in finance are the only people who must never lose any percentage of their returns. I hope that the Government will take the initiative and look at that and give a chance to the people who are putting their lives' savings and the best years of their lives into a company and to give them some chance. This does not mean that I am against healthy profits. Many people have been under such extreme pressure over the past number of years. It is a pity that in so many cases the reason firms are forced into liquidation is the lack of working capital or the fact that some of the people they supply have that difficulty. It has an effect right down the line and puts them in grave difficulties.

I was rather shocked during the summer to hear of a firm where the lending agency put in an adviser from an accountancy firm and then, when the books were sufficiently arranged to suit them, another partner of the firm was put in as a receiver. Even though the firm was returning a profit before the first adviser was sent in they did not have enough liquidity to continue operating. They were a small firm but they were the only one making that particular commodity in the country. We imported about £16 million of the product they were making. There was a demand for it and they were making a profit. When the liquidator was disposing of the property he conducted a Dutch auction between a number of people and he eventually sold the plant and machinery to a scrap man living in England. He got £5,000 more than was bid by an Irish family firm who wanted to retain the business as a growing concern. That is disturbing. A receiver was put in by the ICC, a semi-State organisation supposed to aid and develop the economy, and under their direction the receiver sold off the plant and equipment, which was less than two years old, for scrap to a United Kingdom company.

If businesses are being sold they should be sold by public auction where people would know where their assets were going. Listening to the grapevine I understand some of these firms of accountants have compounds where they accommodate the modern-day John Browns by having expensive machinery and moveable equipment available at knock-down prices with, I suppose, the kick backs and the rest that go with them. It is disturbing in a difficult period for our economy to find that there are unethical codes of commerce under the guise of court orders and so on. I ask the Minister to look at the present procedures and see if the people who are caught up in this situation are getting fair treatment. I should like to know when the present legislation governing receiverships was enacted and if it should be amended. I believe it should be amended.

The IDA do not react well to situations when firms get into trouble. They like to grant-aid businesses. They probably bask in the favourable comments they receive when a new firm is started and they have every right to do that. They have done a marvellous job during the years but there are too many young executives attached to the IDA who only want the glory part of it. They do not want to hear about it if a firm is in trouble. Recently they commissioned a survey on the viability of the production of chip potatoes in this country during the summer. The only people to give any sort of an opinion nowadays are firms of accountants, a very close-knit family of well-paid and well-heeled operators. They came up with the recommendation that it was not viable to produce chips in this country despite the fact that we imported £40 million of potatoes last year. I do not understand the reasoning behind that. In the supermarkets they have chips imported from Canada, France, Holland and Belgium. Yet the IDA are saying there is no market for chips, that it is not viable to produce them or to process them here at home and we have a semi-State organisation selling off equipment at knock-down prices. That is disturbing.

Every Minister is saying that there is no money in the country but substantial grants are paid to unknown persons overseas. The IDA should alter their regulations and where grant-aid is paid to a firm the moveable equipment and fixtures should be retained. If the firm fails that should revert back to the IDA who should have the machinery pools and compounds and if someone new starts up the business they should be able to give a grant on good machinery. The present situation is that the IDA only grant-aid new equipment and machinery. One hears instances, whether they are true or false, that some of this machinery goes out to the UK where it is serviced and sent back as new machinery. If machinery is only used for a couple of months it could be difficult to detect whether it was new or used when coming back to the country. If we import extensive and high technology equipment and if we only use it for a year or 18 months to two years and sell it off at 10 per cent or 11 per cent of its original cost we are exporting at a great loss. Something should be done to ensure that the public get better value for their money.

I am amazed at the low price that is put on a job today. Do people appreciate the value of having employment? Some of the younger generation do not appreciate or take on with a job the responsibilities that should go with it. At the same time one has to admire the number of young people who have a very high sense of responsibility, when one sees couples in their early twenties getting married and providng themselves with their own new houses. That is something that not very many generations in the past were able to do and we must be fair when we speak in general terms of younger people.

Another area where small business firms and the small family firms are being harassed is the Revenue Commissioners. Over the past number of weeks I have met a number of people who have complained bitterly and if what they tell me is true I agree with them. They have their back payments of tax paid up-to-date and the books have been closed. The Revenue Commissioners are now going back over the books and they get a bill for the late payment of VAT by five days in July 1982, late payment of VAT by 11 days in November 1982 and 15 days in February 1983. Sending a bill like that to an ordinary business person who had his books reconciled for the year with VAT and income tax, the Revenue Commissioners going back in that niggardly fashion is the straw that breaks the camel's back. If the Minister has any input into that it is high time the Revenue Commissioners were brought into the economics of 1984.

I am afraid that this is a matter for another Department. It would come under Finance. I can see the point you are trying to make.

It comes under small businesses.

It does, but we are debating a different aspect of small businesses here. I will let you make the point.

I had the point made and I do not wish to pursue it, but I think it is appropriate. We are talking about the problems that small business firms are meeting in trying to continue trading and endeavouring to continue providing excellent and necessary services for Ireland.

I am not going to argue with you.

This is an opportunity to state that it is reprehensible that the Revenue Commissioners should go back a second time. The report deals with all aspects of the availability of finance and makes a number of recommendations, so I might not be too far out of order. I want to make the point clearly to the Minister that if the Minister for Finance has any input into the policy decisions of the Revenue Commissioners it is reprehensible that they should go back over their books for a number of years and present bills in such fashion that they are accepted as fully paid up two years ago. It is not acceptable. I would be surprised if even one Member in this House would agree with such a method of collecting finance from the taxpaying sector. The burden of taxation is falling too heavily on the PAYE sector. That the principle is to harass people in that way is unbelievable. Small businesses are visited regularly, almost on a monthly basis, by the Revenue Commissioners, then these small businessmen pick up the paper and read that big firms in difficulty owe the Exchequer millions of pounds at a time. It is difficult for the small man trying to rear a family and trying to meet a wage bill every Friday night to endure that kind of thing. I hope that the Minister will look at ways of easing the problem for the small business firm. We are inclined to forget that the ordinary family firm that may have about six employees performs a very important function. Such firms are the most numerous, and a way of easing their burden must be found. The tax collecting operation they have to perform imposes an additional strain on their man-hours. I would hope that it would be possible to have VAT charged at an earlier stage, perhaps the manufacturing stage, and so take the onus of keeping these extra books from these small firms.

The committee in their deliberations have made a large number of recommendations under almost every heading in every area they investigated. It is to be hoped that the Minister and the various agencies will be able to consider each of those and respond positively to many of them. The people in the productive sector in particular need somebody to give them a ray of hope. There must be light at the end of the tunnel. Things can only improve; I cannot visualise them being much worse or much tighter. I say that because I appreciate the problems that the Government have. I admire the determined and forthright way in which the different Ministers, not least the Minister of State and the Minister, have tended to meet the problems and challenges of these times, and I wish them continued success with that. However, it is not sufficient to sit back and try to grapple with the problems as they come. The coming years should bring reforms. We need new initiatives. We need to come up with new ways of tackling the problems and a more effective way of administering the various areas. The big problem in the last few years has been liquidity. I would like to see the IDA changing from grants and perhaps placing more emphasis on subsidising interest rates so that firms would have the opportunity of starting off without the ever present pressure of the high interest rates we have seen and endured for the last five or six years. This might be a better way of giving firms a breather.

The Committee on EEC Legislation yesterday heard evidence about a firm that had 70 per cent exports and at the same time they were experiencing some difficulties. I do not know if that would come under this legislation because they would appear not to be under the criteria laid out for this.

I compliment the committee for the work they have put into this report and for the very clear way they have set out their recommendations. They have probed in tremendous depth evidence which came before them. I hope that the Minister will be able to meet their recommendations and have some of their proposals put into operation in the shortest possible time.

I would like to associate myself with the words of congratulations to Senator Dooge. I have no doubt, having worked with Senator Dooge, that he will work in such a way as to bring credit to our country.

Regarding the report, I welcome the Minister's obvious interest in the work ings of the committee as shown by his detailed speech. Politicians have a reputation for talking and doing nothing, but in the workings of this committee this has been proved totally wrong. I would like to comment on the level of expertise, the knowledge, the dedication of the members and staff of the committee in preparing and presenting this report. The committee's operation is broken down into four sectors — manufacturing, retail and distribution, catering industry and construction industry — and today we are debating the report on manufacturing. One small criticism I have of the report is in the area of footwear. Because 92 per cent of footwear sold or bought in this country is imported, I suggest that at a later date the committee give detailed discussion to the footwear industry and, following on from that, the agricultural industry. When the joint committees were being set up my approach was not only in the context of looking at problems being experienced by businesses, particularly small businesses, but in the belief that employment prospects for the young people must lie to a great degree in small businesses and small enterprises. While working on the committee there were points on which we disagreed but we negotiated and talked until we reached a situation with which we all could live and work. For that reason possibly the committee system is more successful than a straightforward debate across the floor where you do not reply and negotiate and so on. The committee had no funds at their disposal. Groups made submissions to the committee, consultants, friends or otherwise, examined draft reports and gave us ideas on whether we were going right or wrong and made new suggestions, and people gave evidence at the evidence sessions. I would like to thank those people who were so helpful in the workings of the committee.

I will not be too detailed in going through the report because the speeches so far have given a good idea of what it is all about. One thing that strikes me about the report is that it refers again and again to areas which are already in existence, and I will give examples. For example in the Bottle Tower in Pearse Street the IDA have set up a cluster of small factories. These units are working very successfully. They operate in such a way that they share secretarial services and so on. They are small. Heating and running costs are not extraordinarly high, and the units are suitable to the setting up of a new business.

I would like to see this type of incubation set up, extended and adopted as future policy of the IDA in relation to premises which they have idle around the country. I understand that the IDA have over two million square feet of property idle. Some time ago I made inquiries which elicited the information that 3,000 square feet was considered to be a small unit. Yet 3,000 square feet is an outrageously big area for a small one-man business or even a ten-man business to contemplate in the initial stages. So perhaps the IDA would consider breaking down these units into smaller areas.

Another example, not in the manufacturing area but necessary obviously to that area, is the success of the Galleria in St. Stephens Green, a cluster of retail outlets sponsored by the IDA. The biggest problem for manufacturers is cash flow particularly in a small operation. Somebody setting up in manufacturing, say, nursery goods could have a small manufacturing unit in addition to a small retail unit for the first 12 to 18 months at a very reduced rent to get his business off the ground.

There is reference in the report to the Government Loan Guarantee Scheme. I draw to the House's attention the scheme in operation between the Bank of Ireland and the Youth Employment Agency whereby a person under 25 years of age can go into the Bank of Ireland and get an unsecured loan of £3,000 for the purpose of starting up a business. The idea is good and the facility should be extended to people over 25. It could be refined a little because the handing out of this money is somewhat indiscriminate. I do not think that the bank are really responsible enough in checking out the projects presented to them. A glossy folder is one of the main requirements which will make your reports more acceptable to the manager, so maybe stricter criteria should be developed for handing out this money.

The personal guarantee has been mentioned. Probably one of the biggest scandals of the business world is that somebody wishing to set up his own business — maybe obliged to set up his own business in order to live and to support a family — must sell his soul to get money. If the banks were a little more demanding in their criteria or if they see a fault in the project presented and contact the IDA for further investigation and further advice, the personal guarantee would not be such an important aspect of the application for money. With the current limited liability law the banks see need to protect themselves and I am glad to hear that the Minister proposes to take action to tighten up these laws. I hope that that in turn will lead to a diminution of the personal guarantee requirement.

Regarding management, some years ago I met a person who came back from England to work in a small industry in County Offaly. The firm later went into liquidation. Discussing the reason why the firm went into liquidation, he said three areas vital in terms of the survival of a business are marketing, management and expertise. He went on to say that in Ireland the expertise was there in terms of the workforce and the skills required but the management and the marketing were at fault, and in his view the main faults in this country are in either marketing or management. That can be backed up by the European report which started about 60 per cent of small businesses collapse in the first five years of their existence and that the main reason lay in management. Management is possibly the most important aspect of that report in that it would seem again and again to be the source of small business collapses and, of course, unemployment.

There are various ways to approach this. One is through training and stricter controls of the type of business for which grant aid will be given. It has been said that I am trying to stop small businesses developing, but that is not so. My effort is to prevent small businesses which will fail from developing. Training should be given in financial and planning controls and marketing strategy, research and implementation. We talk about researching the market and a market approach, but the question is the strategy and how to implement the results of the research.

Quality control has been mentioned in the Minister's speech. Regarding long term planning and assessment of growth potential, I have seen small clothing firms managing nicely, doing very well and in terms of the current situation surviving, and they are approached by a large retail outlet who require a supply of hundreds of dozens of raincoats for so many months of the year. This type of approach or business offer may be suitable to some firms and not to other firms, and it is a question of the firm recognising if they can absorb that kind of sudden growth and survive in the event of that type of contract dying, in other words their survival potential and industrial relations. These aspects must be taken into account in management training.

The grants structure is an area about which I had many reservations. For example, the presentation to a bank of a project with the fancy folder does a great deal to impress, and I think more investigation could be made by the IDA in conjunction with the other agencies to see that the project can stand on its feet. Payment of grants should be subject to certain conditions. The applicant should be able to show the grant awarding agency that he has the knowledge and the expertise to get this business off the ground and to keep it working, and if a fault showed up the IDA, AnCO or whoever should provide facilities for that applicant either to train himself or train an employee in the area where the company was possibly not properly set up. Then, given the level of expertise required, the chances of survival would be much greater.

The report states that far greater flexibility is required in the grant aid package to include export marketing expenditure, State guarantees on working capital and loans and approval for secondhand machinery. Senator Conway brought this up, and I agree with him that it is absolutely ludicrous that thousands of machines which have been grant-aided by the IDA are lying around the country idle and at the same time thousands of new machines are coming in across the water for new industries setting up, because all of this machinery is imported. Therefore, the grant-aiding of secondhand machinery would have merit. To get a grant you must spend a considerable amount of money. If the grant were given on secondhand machinery the expenditure by the business person would be reduced and the imports balance would be altered to some degree. Senator Conway also mentioned retention of ownership of the machinery with the IDA. There is merit in that suggestion. If ownership is not by the IDA it should be vested in the company.

Grants per new employee or for fixed assets should be optional. Grants for fixed assets often discriminate in favour of one type of industry, say a highly technical industry, with a low labour content, whereas high labour content industry often can not qualify for grants although meriting them. A little more leverage on the availability of grants would be a good thing.

The repayment of loans borrowed by companies is causing major problems. We are talking here about fluctuating interest rates. Most businesses, and this must include the agricultural community, cannot survive the unknown element of what their repayments will be next month and next month in terms of interest fluctuating, penalty interest and so on. We have recommended here, that rather than raising repayments during the current term, the term be extended so that at least somebody in a small business would know he has to pay out £100, £200 or £300 every week and he realises what he is facing.

The basic management functions are the same for small and large businesses, but in smaller businesses the manager tends to be a Jack-of-all-trades; the manager could also be the window cleaner. Initially in a very small business the manager's duties will be varied, but as firms expand and as figures grow it is important that managers are trained in what I can best call building and organisation. Weekend courses where business people could go to a live-in centre and take part in courses in management were referred to here, but I think the ground for that comment was that the manager is so important to the business continuing and so on. One of the elements of the failure of our small businesses is that when the manager or the owner goes on holidays the whole thing collapses, or certainly it does not function as it did when he was there. In that context managers should also be encouraged to delegate responsibility on as wide a base as possible so that in the event of the absence of one person or two people the business will continue to function normally.

The recommendations on quality control are very important. There is one area here which is relevant in the context of my visiting a shop — like Senator McDonald visiting a supermarket — to look at clothing. The particular chain store is regarded as an Irish chain store. In fact it is an Irish chain store with its own label and logo. The labels on all the garments I examined had this Irish brand name on them. Yet when you pull back the label you see, "Made in the Phillipines", or "Made in Korea", or whatever. We can prosecute firms which relabel goods. I would also say that, if prosecution were not possible, there would be justification for exposing firms which by inference imply that an article is of Irish origin. It is quite a common practice on supermarket shelves. We see little green, white and gold flags on chickens and all kinds of things. It is a nasty practice. It certainly should be discouraged and if possible stopped.

I want to refer to what a few people said. Senator Ellis referred to second level education. I think he is right. Currently with the Minister for Finance is a proposal for a one year course, based on a course operated by AnCO. Initially there is induction into the course obviously. Then there is assessment. Then basic training in multi-skills — metal work and woodwork, or needle-work and something else — to an industrial level and at the end of the second term a job search type operation where the pupil is trained in terms of looking for a job or training in entrepreneurial skills. This type of training, I am told, has been very successful. The pilot scheme has been very successful in the job search area and also in the entrepreneurial area. People leaving these courses are skilled to a degree — and they also have the basic knowledge. They know how to do their books. They know how to deal with a bank. They know the various State agencies. In other words, they have the information and they know how to go about it. I would suggest, possibly in terms of second level and improvements in the second level, particularly through the VEC system, that that type of training programme, small business induction courses if you like, should be set up.

I will make one final comment now in the area of PRSI. PRSI is a tax on employment. There is no doubt about it. I remember discussing this issue with a number of small businessmen. The payment of PRSI does not take into account that a small business person depends on reliable, honest, trustworthy staff and that, having had a good manager, or a good shop assistant for a number of years, a trustworthy person, that businessman cannot let that person go. What happens in many cases — and particularly in the manufacturing area in small units who would be dependent on good machinists and so on — was that the employers had to absorb the PRSI payment. They could not afford to risk their employees leaving because of a drop in wages. The committee's recommendation, on the combination of PAYE and PRSI with the eventual phasing out of the employer's contribution should be taken very seriously indeed.

I want to ask the Minister a question for clarification. He said the National Development Corporation will act as a State investment company. I should like clarification on that. He also said SFADCo were given responsibility in the White Paper for conducting a pilot project on the development of the food processing sector. I wonder if he has any more information on that.

I welcome this opportunity to say a few brief words on the small business manufacturing industry. This relates to industries employing 100 people or fewer. It is important to note that 5,000 of those manufacturing firms are accountable for 90 per cent of the total number of manufacturing firms and they account for 40 per cent of the manufacturing employment. When we talk about small industry we are talking about something totally different from what we are used to in relation to larger industries. In many small businesses one person basically carries out most of the functions related to production, marketing and administration.

In the middle sixties and seventies much of the emphasis by different Governments was on attracting investment from foreign companies. This was successful to an extent, but it was successful to the exclusion of the promotion of smaller industry. There has been a change over the past number of years, a change which I welcome. The small business or the small manufacturing industry is much more important to the community than the larger, foreign industry. A local community would be much better off if it had 40 units of 25 people employed rather than one major industry employing 1,000 people. The risk of redundancies or failure in such a situation would be far less.

This committee dealt with the role of small manufacturing industry under a number of different headings. The following headings were regarded as the major ones: finance, management, marketing, State agencies and taxation. Finance is obviously one of the most important areas in the setting up of any new business or industry. It is one of the major stumbling blocks in the setting up of a small business. It is difficult to get loans from the banks without a track record. You cannot have a track record, obviously, if you are not in business. It is a Catch 22 situation. This was pointed out to the banks when they met the committee to give their submissions. Listening to the banks you would think that all you had to do was to walk into a bank to get money to set up an industry. We all know that is not the case.

I call on the banks to make more money available to the small industries and particularly to make venture capital available. You may have a sound project which would give employment but because you have no track record the money is refused. It is also denied to you because of lack of security. It is very important that the banks should liaise with the small industries and the small business associations. It would create a better understanding between the small business people and the banks if they sent out a field officer from time to time to visit the factories concerned, to talk to the industrialists in the area, to see for themselves, and to understand the needs and the working capital requirements of the companies.

I welcome the recommendation from the committee that the Government should provide a guarantee loan scheme to make finance available to new companies on a pilot scheme. That is outlined clearly in the report. I ask the Minister to take up that point at a later stage. In the different headings outlined by the committee the next item is management. Proper management of a small business is essential to its success. Basic management functions are the same in small and large businesses. Small businesses are at a disadvantage because they have not got the resources. They rely on one person only to carry out all the functions. Sound management practice in all areas of business is the most important element in development the small business sector. Appropriate management training should be provided where necessary.

While we talk about management — and management functions within a business are very important — another aspect which is of equal importance, if not more important, is marketing. Good marketing is fundamental to the survival of the small manufacturing industry today. There has never been any doubt about the ability in years gone by of any manufacturing industry to produce. Production was always covered. A weaker area over the years has been marketing. Our education system has always been geared towards production and management. While both are very important, marketing is equally important. There is no point in producing something on the factory floor if you cannot sell it. Proper marketing is vital both on the domestic and foreign markets.

It is important that all the manufacturing industries should utilise the services of Córas Tráchtála in their efforts to gain new markets abroad. I welcome the fact that Córas Tráchtála provide higher grant assistance to firms employing less than 50 people. This brings me to the role of the State agencies. Their role is as follows: (a) to foster the development of new enterprises; (b) to assist in the development of existing companies; (c) to promote awareness and take up of new technology. The small firm requires on hand locally a one-stop shop where comprehensive advice and assistance on all aspects of business can be obtained under one roof. I welcome the Minister's decision to implement these recommendations in 1985.

The final area covered by the committee in their examination of the small industries was taxation. Submissions given to the committee were most vocal on taxation. They covered the complete range from PAYE, PRSI, the different rates of VAT, to the very important one, VAT at the point of entry. The general feeling was that there was no incentive to work or to put in any extra effort to run a business because of the punitive rates of tax in existence at the moment. There was a very clear-cut relationship between the different levels of taxation and the number of receiverships and liquidations which we see today. There are too many rates of VAT. There are six in all. It is difficult to administer. Under the PAYE system and PRSI, which is very punitive, the cost of employment is too high to take on additional people.

Basically, the message we were getting from the submissions is that the small manufacturing business people are nothing more than tax collectors and they are not getting any credit for this work.

I agree with the committee's recommendation that, if possible, a £500 credit should be given to those people for doing this work. The committee put a great deal of work into this report. In particular I should like to congratulate the Chairman, Deputy Ivan Yates, and the Clerk of the committee, Mr. Shane McAuley. I ask the Minister if possible to implement this report in total.

I am grateful for the contributions made in the debate today. They were very responsible. There was no acrimonious debate at all. It is very helpful for me to hear the constructive contributions of Senators. Some of the comments made were gratuitous in so far as they were political comments. Others, while relevant to the debate, are the responsibility of other Departments and I am not in a position to respond to them.

Senator Ellis referred to the lack of privilege in the committee. It is a problem I understand. Indeed, I was on the Committee of Public Accounts in 1970 where we suffered the same difficulty in relation to privilege. It was not fully resolved at that time. In fact, it is a major outstanding matter for the Dáil and the Seanad. If we are to develop an in-depth and complex system of committees, which we need to do if we are to function in modern society, this whole question of privilege has to be resolved finally. The place to resolve it is primarily within the Houses. It must first be addressed by the Committee on Procedure and Privileges. I would certainly welcome a move to ensure that the utterances of members and the people who appear before the committees are fully privileged. Only in those circumstances can committees function properly. In this case the lack of privilege in the accepted sense has not inhibited the production of a very fine report on manufacturing industry by the Joint Committee on Small Businesses.

My Department and State agencies made major submissions to the committee and co-operated in every possible way with them. In the situation that prevailed the question of privilege did not inhibit my Department from making contributions. I could envisage a completely different situation arising with another committee in different circumstances.

Senator Ellis made reference to multinationals. He used the word "plundering" by multinationals of the country's resources and then running away. I want to refute this. I do not think it is a fair comment to make about multinational companies coming to Ireland. They have made a major contribution to the industrialisation process of this country. In some cases there have been bad experiences. The number of people employed by foreign-owned industry increased by over 19,000 in the period 1973 to 1983. Indeed, the share of total marketing employment accounted for by foreign firms increased from 27 per cent to 36 per cent in the same period.

These figures speak for themselves. We are still a developing country. We need foreign investment and expertise. I do not think it is quite in order to speak in such a disparaging manner of multinationals. We have our own remedies if remedies are needed. If we have fly-by-nights I am satisfied they can be dealt with under Irish law. To denigrate international companies setting up in Ireland is not acceptable to me, nor is it justified in the experience of this State. They now account for 70 per cent of manufacturing exports. Their contribution to the economy has been immense and will continue to be of importance in our industrialisation policy. They will contribute to job creation and to wealth creation in this country. This should not be forgotten as well as the contribution they make to the expertise we need in such industries as, for example, the electronics industry which is such a rapidly changing industry not only in Ireland but in America, Japan and throughout Europe.

Reference was made to the need for better liaison between An Córas Tráchtála and the IDA. Initiatives in the White Paper allow for a joint board to be set up between CTT and the IDA. In other words, both State-sponsored bodies, Córas Tráchtála and the IDA, would share common directives. This would help them to unify their objectives and to understand each other's roles better. Operating agreements have also been made between the major State agencies. That is a move in the right direction and should avoid any possibility of duplication of activities. A management committee has been established to monitor the implementation of the White Paper and to ensure co-ordination where necessary. The representation on this management committee is composed of officials from the IDA, IIRS, SFADCo, CTT, NBST, AnCO and others.

Senator Daly was concerned about the abuse of the limited liability status. I have already covered this in my introductory speech. The Minister expects to be able to bring this matter to the Government in the near future. Hopefully, we will be in a position to bring a Bill before the House to cover abuses of the limited liability code as soon as possible. There is certainly no wish on the part of the Minister to delay such legislation.

Senator Lynch recognises that in some ways we have contributed to some of the problems facing small industries. He drew attention to the dependence of the retailing sector on small indigenous industries. This reflects one of the main themes of the White Paper. We must maximise added-value in manufacturing sectors to ensure that we capture the wealth that is created which would then allow for further investment and employment in the Irish economy. In the White Paper on Industrial Development that is the theme: the development of the indigenous Irish industry and especially the indigenous Irish small industry. It comes up quite clearly as a central theme.

In regard to secondhand machinery, which was referred to by Senator Conway and Senator McDonald, I do not envisage any change in the grant-aiding of new machinery. It is necessary to ensure that Irish firms have the most modern equipment available, and that should continue to be the case. There is a problem about giving grants the second time around in respect of the same machinery. That is a problem which would arise and probably would be looked upon dimly by the IDA. If a company wish to buy secondhand machinery, the price of secondhand machinery should reflect the fact that it is secondhand and should, therefore, be substantially lower than the cost of new machinery.

I wish to thank Senator Conway for the complimentary remarks he made about the enterprise allowance scheme. It is an excellent scheme. It is working successfully and I hope it will be expanded with time. I agree with him that the banks need to adopt a more developmental approach to the small industry sector. This is a matter which must be taken up seriously by them if they are to adapt to the changing needs of Irish industry. I also fully agree with him regarding the need to promote school and industry links. This is set out clearly in the White Paper.

The co-operative movement has been a dynamic innovator in Irish industry. It has gone into the indigenous and primary production areas very successfully. It has moved in the secondary production areas, especially in agriculture, very successfully and it will continue to be a very important machine in the development of our economy.

The small industry realisation and co-ordination proposals will play a critical role in encouraging communities and individuals to set up businesses on their own. It is a central theme in the White Paper that we want to get down to the regions as far as small industry is concerned. We want to be able to establish one-stop shops where all decisions can be taken regarding grants and so on. This has been decided on, and it is clearly outlined in the White Paper. I think it will meet with a very positive response from industrialists throughout the country.

It will now be possible for feasibility study grants to be sanctioned and these feasibility studies should be used by people coming into industry, especially those who are anxious to start up a manufacturing firm. The general thrust of industrial policy is away from the grant-aiding of bricks and mortar and is taking greater account of the need for professional marketing and professional personnel. This is a move in the right direction.

Senator McDonald said the report is useless if it is not heeded by the Government. Many recommendations of the report have been implemented already in the White Paper which very well reflects the content of many comments made in the committee's report. Obviously some of the recommendations in the committee's report were not acceptable. The White Paper has given full recognition to the recommendations of the committee. The question of the restoration of the environment for industry is a central theme of Government policy. I have already mentioned the establishment of the Committee on Industrial Costs and the committee to examine our energy costs. These are two committees of vital importance whose reports are nearing completion. Hopefully we will be in a position to take action on them in the near future.

I would like to see banks coming out of their conservative shells. The Senator made a positive statement on this matter. If we are to be an innovative society, if we are to be a society that is dynamic and responsive to changes, banks must also run along with that moving society and become as flexible as the Government agencies are now with regard to industry. The IDA act well in rescue situations, although Senator McDonald seems to think differently. There is close liaison between the IDA and Fóir Teoranta. Where a company are in difficulty and where it is clearly a rescue case, Fóir Teoranta will take the lead in examining the situation. Where, however, a reconstruction is necessary, or a new development is necessary to ensure a company's life, then the IDA have a lead position. The IDA are on an inter-agency committee which meets quite regularly on rescue cases. They are fully au fait with and work extremely well with Fóir Teoranta in rescue cases. Fóir Teoranta and the IDA render all possible State assistance in rescue situations. In the past two or three years in particular our economy has suffered seriously from the recession. The work being done, particularly by Fóir Teoranta, is something we should recognise very positively. They have become involved in many firms and saved many jobs. They are to be complimented on their work. In saying that I automatically include the involvement of the IDA in this area.

In many cases firms leave their plight develop for too long and do not go to proper finance agencies for finance. The question of firms continuing to use VAT which they collect on behalf of the State from customers, and PAYE which they collect on behalf of the State from employees, and not returning that money to Government is a practice I cannot accept or condone. The proper place for companies in difficulties or in need of rescue to go to is to relevant finance houses or rescue houses, whether it be Fóir Teoranta, the ICC or the banks, to put together a package at an early stage and not to allow a situation to develop where they are gone beyond rescue. The proper place for the money collected is in the Government's coffers for no other reason than to be disbursed to the less well off. That money should not be used by companies in difficulties; it is owing to Government. That is not to say that companies have not the wherewithal to get money. They should make the proper move at an early stage and not leave it until it is too late when it will be far more difficult for a State agency to rescue them. Companies should move early and get their problems solved. If they leave it late the problem will develop into an almost impossible situation.

I suggest that the Minister should be permitted to take as much time as he likes. We should not curtail his reply in any way and we can adjust our period of suspension.

I will not be five minutes. Senator McAuliffe mentioned the need for incubator premises for small industry. The IDA are actively engaged in this area. A programme for the establishment of 100,000 square feet of incubator factory space ranging from 500 square feet upwards is now being provided in about 21 locations throughout the country. This should be central in fostering new industry, and new small industry, especially for first time industrialists. The Senator made other references to the lack of management and marketing capabilities of Irish firms. This matter, again, is being dealt with in the White Paper. The White Paper proposes a major initiative in this area. Management, marketing and quality control aspects of industrial policy are receiving increased attention in grant approval schemes. I made that clear in my opening remarks. The emphasis is towards looking at the total business operations rather than concentrating solely on production or on the fixed assets aspect of a business. This is as it should be. Our economy is very open. We need to have the most expert marketing available to companies and this is clearly recognised in the Government's White Paper on Industry. I want to thank Senator McAuliffe. Her contribution was positive and thoughtful. She sought clarification on two matters. The first was the SFADCo food role. It is mentioned in the White Paper. A responsibility is given to SFADCo to examine on a pilot basis small specialised food projects for the consumer, a role that is not filled fully and it is thought that they would be very suitable for this role.

With regard to the National Development Corporation, the White Paper spells out the roles and functions of that body in great detail. It is well worth reading. I was pleased with the result of the deliberations on the National Development Corporation. I hope legislation will be brought before the House in the next session. It will be a main thrust of Government policy and will reflect the Government's full concern to be involved in industrial progress here.

Question put and agreed to.
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