When is it proposed to take Committee Stage?
Business of Seanad.
Senators
Now.
In view of the fact that the Minister for Health did not think it was worth his while to come in here and reply to the Second Stage I suggest that we adjourn Committee Stage until next Wednesday.
The Leader of the House has proposed that Committee Stage be taken now.
I support Senator Ryan. I see absolutely no reason why we should rush this Bill through. I sympathise with him. The Minister for Health, for his own good reason, did not think fit to come in to reply to Second Stage. We had no response from him to the various points made by Members in this House. Therefore, I suggest that we take Committee Stage next week.
I join with the other Members who have spoken. It is a discourtesy to this House that the Minister is not here. We were told that this was a major Bill yet the Minister has not paid the House the courtesy of attending. He has sent in a junior Minister who harangued the Opposition. He did not address himself to the Bill but criticised Members on this side. This showed a great lack of courtesy and I would not like to go any further than that. I will refrain from using the words I would like to use against the Minister of State who came in here this evening and abused this House in a typical way. Last Wednesday he came in on the Adjournment debate and, typical of him, he came in tonight and did not address himself to the Bill. He spoke against Members of the House. If this is what the House is coming to or if this is what the Government are coming to, it is about time that this House stood up. I address myself to the members of the Government parties and say I would not allow a Minister of State to abuse Members in the manner in which Minister Donnellan did this evening.
I am saddened that the Opposition should take this view because we had an agreement last week that, by virtue of getting an open ended debate, all Stages would be taken after the Second Stage was finished. I would ask them to adhere to that agreement. There is no point in making agreements if we do not stand by them.
I endorse what Senator Ryan said. I see no reason why the House should facilitate the Government on this issue when the Government have not sent in the Minister to reply to the very serious points which were made in this debate. In addition to that, I cannot understand the enormous hurry and rush to get this Bill through when it has taken the Government two and a half years to bring it forward. Suddenly, they want to rush it through in one day. It is a discourtesy to the House and to the Opposition. I see no reason why it should be rushed through by 12 o'clock tonight. I am prepared to discuss it tomorrow or next week but I see no reason for the rush.
I was concerned that we would have a full opportunity to discuss all aspects of this Bill, both at Second Stage and at Committee Stage. I was informed by the acting Leader of the House there had been an arrangement entered into, by agreement, that all Stages would be taken this evening. I regretted that. I now understand that the agreement no longer operates for whatever reason. I see no reason why we should exert ourselves to seek to complete this Bill tonight. It is an important measure. It is a measure on which we all want to reflect on Committee Stage.
I would welcome the presence of the Minister. He was present for considerable portions of this Bill and made a very important, detailed and far-ranging Second Stage speech on this Bill, on which I have already complimented him. It would be preferable if he could be here for Committee Stage because we will be seeking to raise important issues at that stage. I do not see any reason to foreclose the debate this evening. It had originally been agreed between the Opposition and the Government side that all Stages would be taken this evening. It is quite clear from the contributions this evening from Senator Willie Ryan and Senator Lanigan, the leader of the Fianna Fáil group in the Seanad, that that agreement no longer operates. They require that the Minister be present for Committee Stage. I would go on the merits of the Bill and on the merits of the issues we want to discuss in detail. There is no requirement, necessity, defensiveness on the Government side or covert reason why we have to hasten the passage of the Bill. I see very good reason to postpone the Committee Stage, so that we can have a full opportunity for such discussion as this House feels necessary on this important and valuable measure, which is the first honest attempt to reform the law in this area and which stands on its own merits. We have nothing to hide, nothing to fear, nothing to be covert about and nothing to be defensive about. I support the view that we should postpone the Committee Stage and take it either tomorrow — I am perfectly happy if the House meet tomorrow — or next week, so that we can have a full discussion on all the issues.
I support the view that we come back next Wednesday and take Committee Stage. It should be said that our Members made very responsible contributions. They studied the problem and were extremely capable in their contributions. I was aghast at the end of the debate at the bitter attack by the Minister of State at the Department of Health, Deputy Donnellan, on the Fianna Fáil Party. We tried to keep this debate nonpolitical. We argued and debated in a constructive way. I was amazed at his response at the end of his contribution.
While I do not want to become involved in controversy about what the Minister of State said or did not say, I feel, as does Senator Robinson and other Senators, that this is an important Bill and we need a full discussion of it, section by section, and we need the relevant Minister present. It was my impression and that of many other Senators when we were told that we were to take all Stages today, that the Minister would be available. I am not suggesting that the Minister is absent through deliberate discourtesy to the House but, in order to have a satisfactory debate on the Committee Stage of this Bill, we ought to have the Minister present.
With no disrespect to the Minister of State, this is a Bill that the Minister for Health has handled and is very committed to. I ask the Government seriously to consider postponing the Committee Stage, either until tomorrow morning or until next week, so that we may have the Minister present. I am not attacking anybody about this. For the good running of the business of the House, the Minister should be present for Committee Stage.
I understand that the agreement was entered into to facilitate the Minister. As the Minister did not see fit to facilitate the Members of the House, I do not see any reason why this agreement should stand. We have been subjected to abuse, not only from the Minister of State but from several Members on the Government benches. I support the motion that this debate be held over for another day until we get adequate time to reply to some of the statements made from the Government benches.
With all due respect to Fianna Fáil, it seems that there is a bit of gamesmanship going on here.
Not just Fianna Fáil.
Senator Mark Killilea said at about 4 o'clock this evening that everything that one could say about this Bill had already been said. Fianna Fáil have constantly asked for the last two years why this Government do not legislate and get legislation through? If Senators want to sit here all night, then let us sit here but let us do the business.
The understanding that we on this side of the House had was that the matter would be dealt with this evening.
Senator Loughrey's contribution did not give anybody any hope.
If the Leader of the Opposition does not like the heat, let him leave the kitchen.
His attack on me was not in line.
When the Opposition have ironed out their own problems among themselves then they can decide to lecture us.
I should have called Senator Killilea the last time but I do not think he offered in time for me to see him.
It is all right so long as the Chair calls me. I support the suggestion made by Senator Willie Ryan on the grounds that the Bill was taken because the Minister wanted all Stages to be taken today. The agreement was made on the basis that the Minister would be present. On such an auspicious occasion as one would seem to believe it is, the least we could have is the presence of the Minister. In reply to what Senator Magner said about me, I was speaking this evening on Second Stage of the Bill. It is quite different on Committee Stage. He remarked on what I said but I think it was a fine debate with the exception of a few allegedly impassioned pleas. I will not comment on what the Minister of State said; it speaks for itself.
I would like to draw the attention of the House to the fact that the Minister for Health was taking the Nurses Bill in the Dáil today and he cannot be two places at the same time. I know we are good but we have not got the power of bi-location.
(Interruptions.)
He was taking legislation in the Dáil and that is why he could not be here. The Bill is a very small Bill, there are no amendments down for it and it has only three sections, so what is the hassle? Everything that can be said has been said and the Senators have an opportunity to speak on the remainder of it.
(Interruptions.)
The Nurses Bill had concluded in the Dáil hours before Second Stage of this Bill was completed here so the Minister could have come into the House if he wanted to reply to Second Stage.
There is a long established precedent or custom in this House that, generally speaking, Committee Stage is not taken on the day that we complete Second Stage. I agree that on this occasion an agreement was entered into last week that all Stages would be taken today. The general feeling was that Second Stage would have ended somewhat earlier than it did, and because of the wide interest in the Bill and in an effort to try to take out the acrimony which has unfortunately developed in this debate, in order to give Members an opportunity to consider the matter and in the light of the fact that there is no stated urgency by the Government on the finalisation of this Bill, Members are entitled to reflect and have a free opportunity to submit amendments. In that cooler atmosphere and without the acrimony that has developed we should continue the business at another time and do better justice to the business of this Seanad.
I feel very sorry that this atmosphere has now come into the Chamber after an excellent debate on this legislation but I lay the blame at the feet of the person who started all this, namely the Minister of State, Deputy Donnellan, in his disgraceful reply to the debate in this House. There was not one word of politics in this debate from either side until the Minister of State stood up to make his reply. It was a disgraceful performance.
I have not spoken on this Bill because we had so many speakers and I wanted to allow them time, but it is hypocritical of Fianna Fáil to be annoyed that a Minister was not here to take this Bill. This is my third time to be in this House and when Fianna Fáil were in Government—the junior Ministers were known as Parliamentary Secretaries at one time—Bills were taken by Fianna Fáil Parliamentary Secretaries in this House, a Minister did not appear, and nobody ever objected. To object because a Minister of State rather than a senior Minister replied is poppycock. Something else is worrying Fianna Fáil, something that has happened tonight which maybe they did not expect to happen.
I want to lend my support to the Fianna Fáil side and to Senator Willie Ryan's suggestion. It is a dreadful pity that Senator Daly, for whom I have the greatest respect, should have come in and made the remarks that he made as he had not spoken on this Bill while we as a party unit supplied 14 speakers and showed how seriously we were taking the Bill. I want to lend my support to the proposal to postpone this until next Wednesday.
Senator Ferris to reply.
I will make no comment on any contribution made in the debate. I have no control whatsoever over contributions by Ministers, Ministers of State, the Opposition or this side of the House. All I can do is try to reach agreement and a consensus in the House about how the business can be ordered and taken in an orderly fashion. The week before last I discussed with both the Leader of Fianna Fáil and the Whip how the business would be taken and it was envisaged that last week we would deal with the Bill in two days as had been done in the other House. The Minister, Deputy Desmond, was prepared to make himself available up to 10.30 on last Thursday evening to facilitate Fianna Fáil if they so wished.
Agreed.
They wanted to complete the debate last week at 5 o'clock and we agreed. We agreed also that we would sit earlier than normal today and have no lunch or tea break to facilitate them.
(Interruptions.)
In the ordering of the business last week, when I was adjourning the House until 10.30 the following morning I said that I hoped to take all Stages of the family planning Bill, and the Leas-Chathaoirleach said that she was not quite happy because the Minister wanted the Bill out of the House. I put it on the record of the House then that the Minister did not want the Bill just out of the House, he wanted to facilitate everybody to speak on it and was prepared to sit until 10.30 p.m. last week. Because it suited the Opposition to finish at 5 o'clock last week we agreed that we would facilitate all the speakers the Opposition wanted today, and there were many from this side. This Bill has evoked 36 speeches in this House. I hope that is not an indication that this is the only subject that Members have an interest in. There was no agreement with the Opposition that a Minister would be available all day today or all night. The Minister had another Bill in the other House which the Opposition are aware is important legislation. I was not aware that the Minister would not be available for Committee Stage and he might yet be available for it. The spokesman on Health for Fianna Fáil told me this evening that as far as he was concerned when the Second Stage was completed there would be about 20 minutes on Committee Stage and the Opposition had an amendment down which they expected would occupy 20 minutes. There is a three line Whip on everybody and the Opposition have refused to give pairs to people who had important functions to attend to tonight and who stayed in this House.
That was at 4 o'clock.
We gave a commitment that we would not stop anybody from speaking on this Bill and we did not stop anybody. The Minister did not reply until everyone who wished to speak had spoken. I think we have dealt with the matter fairly by sticking to what we agreed and because we reached that agreement I am proposing to the House that we continue with the remaining Stages now. I am prepared to sit here for however long it takes to suit the Opposition or indeed Members on this side of the House to discuss Committee Stage of this Bill. We even mentioned last week that it might be until 12 o'clock.
A Senator
All agreements are out the door.
I hope that the Leader of Fianna Fáil accepts that I have no control over what anybody says.
I thank the Senator for his final comments. He admits that this House is abused by a Minister of State.
(Interruptions.)
The question is: "That Committee Stage be taken now."
Question put.
The Seanad divided: Tá, 31; Níl, 21.
Tá
- Belton, Luke.
- Browne, John.
- Bulbulia, Katharine.
- Burke, Ulick.
- Connor, John.
- Conway, Timmy.
- Cregan, Denis (Dino).
- Daly, Jack.
- Deenihan, Jimmy.
- Durcan, Patrick.
- Ferris, Michael.
- FitzGerald, Alexis J.G.
- Fleming, Brian.
- Harte, John.
- Higgins, Jim.
- Higgins, Michael D.
- Hourigan, Richard V.
- Howard, Michael.
- Howlin, Brendan.
- Kelleher, Peter.
- Kennedy, Patrick.
- Lennon, Joseph.
- Loughrey, Joachim.
- McAuliffe-Ennis, Helena.
- McDonald, Charlie.
- McGonagle, Stephen.
- McMahon, Larry.
- Magner, Pat.
- O'Brien, Andy.
- O'Mahony, Flor.
- Quealy, Michael A.
Níl
- Cassidy, Donie.
- de Brún, Séamus.
- Ellis, John.
- Fallon, Seán.
- Fitzsimons, Jack.
- Killilea, Mark.
- Lanigan, Mick.
- Lynch, Michael.
- McGuinness, Catherine I.B.
- Mullooly, Brian.
- O'Toole, Martin J.
- Hanafin, Des.
- Hillery, Brian.
- Honan, Tras.
- Hussey, Thomas.
- Kiely, Rory.
- Ross, Shane P.N.
- Ryan, Brendan.
- Ryan, Eoin.
- Ryan, William.
- Smith, Michael.
Tellers: Tá: Senators Belton and Harte; Níl: Senators W. Ryan and de Brún.
Question declared carried.