On 8 May last, when we were previously dealing with the Housing (Homeless Persons) Bill, I dealt with the question of people who were sleeping rough and I indicated that one could not force people who had made it their way of life to sleep rough to start applying for housing if the facilities were there for them to do so. Also at the conclusion of that part of the debate I suggested that when provisions would be laid down in the Minister's Bill allowing them to apply to be placed on the housing list priority would be given to the more feeble of those who have to sleep rough. This is not easy because it is difficult to get people who sleep rough to start reporting to doctors on a regular basis. For example, you cannot get them to get someone to bring them into the chief medical officer to see if they can get more points etc. That will have to be taken care of when the Minister brings in the Bill. A priority look must be taken at the weaker of those people with a view to finding some means of assessing who is the weakest in the health sense so that priority can be given accordingly.
One problem of the need to house the homeless is not so much that nobody wants to do it — though I lay the charge that nobody seemed overwilling to do it down through the years irrespective of what Government were in power — but they never got down to the point of involving the appropriate caring organisations, associations, co-operatives, etc. in dealing with this question of housing the homeless. That must be tackled now. It is not fair to the homeless to say that eventually we will be bringing in a Bill which will provide the opportunity for them to apply; but, having applied, they may then have to sleep rough for another five, six or seven years depending on what the housing situation has to offer. After all, availability of the housing stock has been affected by people acquiring the right to purchase houses, etc. Therefore, it is necessary to think about involving these caring organisations such as the St. Vincent De Paul Society, co-operatives, etc., to see if, instead of just having the homeless provided for by being able to apply, they will get something running alongside that whereby some sort of housing can be developed along co-operative lines to assist them.
We cannot repeat often enough after passing the Combat Poverty Agency Bill, that we cannot talk about poverty or anything else of that nature without including the homeless. Even though the Bill may not be specific in that area, I have no doubt that some form of recommendation coming from the agency will also include views on the question of people who are downtrodden and homeless. Therefore, it is right and proper that we continue to indicate our feelings towards people who are homeless and to continue to agitate for provision of shelter for them. It is also right and proper to talk about another kind of homeless people, homeless in the sense of lack of community.
I refer to the people who are lonely and destitute, who but for the Willie Berminghams of this society would never get a visit, people who live in holes and have no toilet facilities and in some cases their surroundings are rat-infested. They get but a few scraps of food. That sounds strange. Many people in this city will tell you that nobody is hungry or lonely, but the evidence is there if anyone is prepared to read it. Not only in this city of Dublin, but in other Irish cities people have to face loneliness, cold, hunger and depression. As Willie Bermingham says people are alone in misery and often sentenced to death.
Maybe it will be argued that the cruel conditions of the cities' tenements 65 years ago to which I referred do not now exist. Perhaps they do not, but the scale of the problem is relative to the affluence that has grown up and therefore relevant in the sense that we should have been paying more attention to it. The situation should not be at the level it is now. There is chronic isolation and people are abandoned and forgotten.
We have not had an opportunity to debate this problem since 1977 or 1978. Investigations then revealed great squalor in the city centre area where the buildings had leaking roofs and dirty rooms, no ventilation, outside taps, rats' excrement on the stairs and landings etc. That is what the report stated in 1977 and 1978. It must be admitted that Dublin Corporation are doing a great job in the inner city, but they are not getting much help from the private builders to supplement that. That is a pity. It is not a condemnation of the corporation to say that these were the facts. While many improvements have taken place, there is room for a great deal more improvement. We are very anxious to see that this is continually agitated for until finally we get a Bill that is acceptable, and we can put our hands to our hearts and say that the homeless have been really catered for, not just in the sense of being put on a housing list, which by its very procedures and demands might necessarily leave them on the streets for five or six more years.
The position may have improved a bit, but I am not so sure about that. It is probably arguable as to whether it has worsened or not. I see the Minister indicating that it has not worsened and I am glad about that. With the problem of population increase we have to keep our eye on it. Obviously if the population grows there is a danger of the problem of homelessness being aggravated. We are in the area now of a further population explosion. Therefore, it is more important that we see that there is no further aggravation of the problem and that there will not be much more delay before the Minister comes into the House with a Bill that is acceptable. In the meantime the Labour Party Senators, if no Government Bill arrives, will be supporting this Bill of Senator Ryan's.
The Minister in his Second Stage speech said that Senator Ryan's Bill as it stands will not offer a solution to the problem of homelessness. I would ask the Minister in the friendliest possible terms, "When does any Bill offer a final solution?" Legislation makes the problem less acute; then it has to be policed. Subsequently it has to be reviewed. There will not be any final solution to the problem of homelessness unless it gets the same attention as every other problem in society and is continually examined. The means by which people can be housed should be reviewed. We should see if co-operatives and charitable organisations can be helped to solve the problem of dealing with the homeless. They should be helped to a much greater extent than at present.
There was an experience some time ago — I do not think many of the homeless will be able to take advantage of it — when Father Scully built some lovely flats around Gardiner Street and very poor people were able to be facilitated there. They were subscribing a certain amount per week over a number of years before they would go in and finally some other arrangement was made. If people like Father Scully could make that kind of effort for the poorer people in this society — it was a large effort in caring, but it was small in housing numbers — it is possible for the charitable organisations, who provide facilities for people and go out of their way to get them off the streets, to do something in that area.
The main onus is on the Government. At the moment the onus to house people who are homeless falls on the special interest groups. The onus is also on them to watch for the slip backs. Diligence has ben displayed by them rather than by Governments down through the years — it is not a problem only of today or yesterday. I am very pleased that Senator Ryan brought this Bill into the house. It is sad in a way that it was not debated much earlier, but it is not something that the Labour Party overlooked. Anybody who reads the Labour Party document published about 1973 on combating poverty in Ireland will see that it was a very detailed document which covered a very broad range, the question of redistribution etc., including the provision of housing for those who could not provide houses for themselves.
I do not think there is any excuse for homelessness in a society that has progressed, relatively speaking, compared to the rest of the world. There is no justification for saying that people who are homeless or who have not got adequate shelter shall continue to be left in that way. All that has been missing down the years is the will to tackle the problem. We are told now that this Bill does not provide sufficient scope. Let us hope when the new Bill comes in that the scope will be there and the political will to take people off the streets and put them into homes will be displayed through that Bill.
There have been for a long time the ways and means of dealing with people who are homeless and hungry. I am not going into the whole question of the stock-piling of food mountains while people starve in Ethiopia. The wealth of the nation has been growing and yet we go our way and turn our faces against what is not very palatable, thinking that the problem will go away. Let us be blunt about it, without people such as Senator Ryan who focus attention on the many social evils that run through our system of society, a lot would be overlooked. It may be an irritant to the Government when the question of inequality and redistribution of wealth etc., is raised but we can come to terms with the issues by discussing them. For that reason I am very pleased that Senator Brendan Ryan introduced the Bill.
I do not want to become too emotional but unless we ensure that the system is kept under constant surveillance resulting in modifications we are inviting more criticism and a greater tendency towards disorder which grow out of the way in which society is structured and how different sections are dealt with. I will never apologise, as a member of the Labour Party, for speaking out when the redistribution of wealth is not carried out correctly and as a result of which people are left homeless. There is a weakness in the social order, avarice is rampant and we are not encouraged to listen to the voice of anger on behalf of these people. We should not neglect them because that invites the social disorder to which I referred.
I made a comment earlier about my own experience in the Dublin tenements. The charity of the people at that time was highlighted by the fact that everybody who lived in a tenement made sure that people were taken off the streets and given shelter. They slept in hallways and lobbies and were provided with sheets made from flour sacks which had been stitched together. They were provided with patchwork quilts, mugs of tea and bread. I am talking about the late twenties and early thirties and it was going on long before that. In 1985 people are sleeping out with sheets of paper over and under them. It is sad to have to be so critical of Governments in this way. I say that having regard to what took place between 1973 and 1977 during the Coalition period. I am not making a political point of this although it was a very good period. There was a social commitment particularly in their first 18 months of office. Expenditure on social services, health and education rose dramatically in comparison with other periods. It was in the region of 70 per cent, which was very substantial.
About 25,000 houses were provided through local authorities and reform of the taxation system began. In 1973 to 1977 we were actually coming to terms with the whole question of the social needs of the population and the redistribution of wealth among the underprivileged. That was a great trend. Unfortunately, other events have taken over and homeless people are forgotten.
We hope the Minister will introduce a Bill which will be comprehensive enough to give the people on the streets an opportunity to get warm and dry accommodation. I trust that when the Minister introduces the Bill it will make provision for the homeless to look forward to getting into the position where they will have a reasonable opportunity of being housed in line with every other person who has a similar right.
It would be sad if a Bill established a points system. It is sad that somebody who is weak, hungry, cold and perhaps suffering from some type of sickness, does not go to a doctor and can die on the street. I include in that the people whom I mentioned earlier, those to whom Mr. Bermingham addressed his efforts, the chronically lonely.
