Seanad Éireann debate -
Wednesday, 12 Feb 1986

Vol. 111 No. 5

Order of Business.

Mr. Ferris

I propose the Order of Business for today as Nos. 1, 2, 3, 4. We will have an adjournment for tea from 5.30 to 6.30.

In regard to the remainder of the Order of Business, I want to assure the House that it has always been my policy to try to get agreement, particularly agreement relating to Private Members' Time. In spite of the accusations that are occasionally made against me for the way in which I have ordered certain items on the Order of Business, particularly relating to Private Members' Time, I want to assure the House that I have always tried to have the fullest consultation with the people concerned. In this regard, I want to put on the record of the House my appreciation of Fianna Fáil, who had put down a Private Members' motion, which, at the time it was tabled, was politically the correct thing for them to do. They were kind enough to adjourn final consideration of it because the negotiations had reached a very delicate stage. Because of that they agreed to defer the taking of the balance of the time allocated for that motion, which is Motion No. 5.

Last week I thought I had agreement that we should not continue it on that day because we felt it inopportune, and after a parliamentary party process it was decided that it was required to be taken by Fianna Fáil and there was a vote on the Order of Business. This week, again in trying to reach agreement, I have had discussions with both parties concerned in Private Members' Time and had offered to Fianna Fáil that, if they did not consider that they should pursue the balance of their 30 minutes on No. 5, we would consider allowing them one and a half hours to deal with another motion because one hour and a half would be required to deal adequately with it.

Unfortunately, the other party concerned, the Fine Gael Party, whose time it is after the 30 minutes have expired, feel that it is their right to go into their time for their chosen motion and that would be at 7 o'clock. In spite of my best efforts I failed to reach agreement and it is now a matter for the House. I am proposing then, in view of what I have said — and I hope that all sides will accept what I have said and the sincerity with which I have put it — that at 6.30, after returning from the tea adjournment, we will take No. 5 for the 30 minutes allocated and from 7 to 8 o'clock we will take No. 6. I propose the Order of Business as Items Nos. 1, 2, 3, 4, 5 and 6 in that order.

Mr. W. Ryan

While I appreciate the efforts made by Senator Ferris to accommodate us, we cannot agree to the Order of Business because we feel that No. 35 should be taken instead of either No. 5 or 6. It is some time since this motion on education was introduced. We agreed that we would not take the last 30 minutes of it then because discussions were taking place between the Minister for Education and the teachers. We did not want to upset things at that time and we did not insist on taking the last 30 minutes and having a vote. There was no agreement between the teachers and the Minister. We felt that our 30 minutes should be taken last week in order that we could express our feelings as the Members of the Dáil did on the following day.

The Leader of the House, Senator Dooge, was not in favour of it being taken last week but he was not here at the time it arose and we had to insist on a vote on it and we were defeated on the vote. We tried last week to raise that matter under another procedure and also the question of the hospitals. It was ruled out by the Cathaoirleach and I asked him if there was any other way of doing it and he suggested by agreement between the Whips. I spoke to the Fine Gael Whip and he would not agree to us taking the motion on Thursday of last week. He did say on Thursday morning last that he would be prepared to accommodate us some other time. This is "some other time" just now. I am very disappointed with Fine Gael that they were not prepared to accommodate us.

I would also like to point out here that we are the principal Opposition, and the only Opposition party here, and we are allowed three hours for a motion. The Government Party are allowed six hours to our three hours, as the Labour Party have three hours and the Fine Gael Party have three hours; the Independents get three hours, which we do not begrudge. The Government Party are getting six hours on Private Members' Business to our three hours. We agreed to that, but when we agree to it there should be, now and again, some consideration given in return. If Fine Gael are not prepared to agree to what I have asked we will be asking the Committee on Procedure and Privileges to have another look at how those Private Members' Motions should be taken. Therefore I cannot agree to the Order of Business.

Mr. Ross

I do not want to get involved in any inter-party squabbling about the Order of Business. I would like to welcome the promotion of Item No. 4 from away down the Order Paper to No. 4 which is the Bill in my name, Senator Ryan's and Senator Robb's for the abolition of capital punishment. Although I welcome it, I would say in passing that out of courtesy I would have thought as it is in our name we might have been informed or consulted about it being ordered today, especially in view of the remarks that Senator Ferris has just passed that he normally consults the groups about such matters. I would like to ask a question about this: does it indicate that it is now Government policy — I would like the Leader of the House to help me in this — to abolish capital punishment? Does it indicate that the Government are accepting this Bill or just debating it? Does it indicate that the Government are proposing their own Bill?

Mr. O'Leary

I would like to support the Order of Business as proposed. Certainly, as a member of the Fine Gael Party, I would like to facilitate Fianna Fáil with regard to Private Members' Time in the best way in which that can be done. It was appreciated at the time that they were facilitating the Government with regard to the motion on education. Last week, as you will appreciate, the matter came before the House and it seemed to be a matter of great importance. That 30 minutes is available to Fianna Fáil now; even though it is our turn we are not seeking to upset that arrangement. We are anxious that Fianna Fáil would take the remaining 30 minutes on No. 5, and then take their normal turn in the House. It may well be that the Committee on Procedure and Privileges will change it some time but the normal rule of the House after that is that the next party get their opportunity and the next party is the Fine Gael Party. If the Committee on Procedure and Privileges want to change it and give Fianna Fáil more time than that, that is fair enough. They can put that proposal to the Committee on Procedure and Privileges. In the normal way it is unreasonable to expect Fine Gael to allow two Fianna Fáil items in Private Members' Time to be raised one after the other.

Mr. Kiely

What happened last week?

Mr. O'Leary

The Private Members' Time this week, the 30 minutes, is being made available.

Mr. Kiely

What happened last week?

Mr. O'Leary

I do not want to get party political about it. I know what happened last week and I think the Senator knows what happened last week. He knows why it is no longer opportune that it should be taken. The wind is now blowing in a different direction. I think there is nothing wrong with the proposal of the Leader of the House that the 30 minutes remaining to Fianna Fáil be taken and then the normal pattern re-established. The normal pattern is that the next party whose turn it is should get whatever Private Members' time they feel is appropriate in the circumstances at the time. That is all we are asking for and in the circumstances I support the Order of Business as proposed.

Mr. Smith

I understood Senator O'Leary to say that Fine Gael were granting a concession to Fianna Fáil to have a half an hour debate in Private Members' Time on the motion on teachers.

Mr. O'Leary

No, I did not.

Mr. Smith

That was clearly my understanding. I would like to inform the House that Fine Gael have not the prerogative of deciding whether Fianna Fáil would use that half an hour or not. Senator O'Leary then went on to say that he wanted to re-establish the norm. The norm was disestablished last week and that is the problem. In fairness to the Fianna Fáil Senators we have tried to be as co-operative as possible in the organisation of the business of this House and we rarely have a vote. It is only because contempt is now being displayed for that goodwill and that co-operation the we find ourselves in the position where we must wrestle to try to get reasonable time for what we want to do here.

Secondly, because of the wrangle last week, it was indicated to our Whip that an effort would be made to accommodate us this week. Clearly, no effort has been made in this regard. It would only be right at this stage if the Acting Leader of the House and the Government parties made some effort to try to see that there is a fair resolution of this problem. We are wasting a lot of time and we will be wasting more time in the future if we do not try to uphold the co-operation which has always been part and parcel of the character of operations in this House. It is being systematically dismantled. It is being done by the majority parties, parties who face the electorate continually telling them how they would consider minority groups and others. We happen to be a minority group in the Seanad and we are entitled to some rights.

Séamus de Brún

I would like to support both my colleagues, that is, the acting leader of Fianna Fáil and Senator Smith, in all they have said in regard to these two motions. The fact is that, notwithstanding what has been said on the other side of the House, there is a half hour due to Fianna Fáil on a motion that has been already discussed in this House. It was agreed last week between the Whips and the parties on the other side that that half hour would not be utilised but, in lieu of that, that we would be accommodated on another occasion. The accommodation which we are seeking now is in view of the situation that has arisen in the meantime.

The situation in regard to the teachers' motion has taken a different turn in so far as there has been a vote on that motion in the other House. In view of that and in view of the fact that both motions are equally nationally important, we are asking now that the motion on health, that is, the motion on the hospitals — St. Dympna's in Carlow and Saint Patrick's in Castlerea — be taken today instead of the motion on education. I do not think that is an unreasonable request: I think we are being denied our rights here. We are being denied our rights and I would like to say that I am very disappointed that we are being treated thus. It is very unfair.

Mr. Mullooly

On the Order of Business, in case there might be any misunderstanding about what Senator de Brún said, we are asking that item No. 35 be substituted this evening for the one-and-a-half hours during which items Nos. 5 and 6 would be taken. We feel that, in view of the way in which this side of the House was treated last week, we should be accommodated this week and that we should be given an opportunity to discuss in Private Members' Time for one-and-a-half hours the motion dealing with the closure of Saint Dympna's Hospital, Carlow, and Saint Patrick's Hospital, Castlerea. When we made this request we felt that there would be agreement on this matter in view of the fact that Senators on the other side of the House have expressed their opposition to the closure of both Saint Dympna's Hospital, Carlow, and Saint Patrick's Hospital, Castlerea and a debate on this motion this evening would give them the opportunity of letting the Government and the Minister for Health know they were opposed to these two closures.

Mr. Loughrey

A couple of things have come to my notice. Is Senator Mullooly saying — if he is, it would surprise me — that he is no longer defensive of the teachers and the teachers' union, to which he belongs at heart. Senator Smith talks about rights of minorities. I would ask him to inform himself by getting the minutes of every AGM of every council meeting, urban council and county council throughout this nation, during last year and he will find how his party treat minorities.

Senator Ryan mentions that he is the leader of the only Opposition party. May I remind him that there is another Opposition party, the Progressive Democrats.

(Interruptions.)

Mr. Loughrey

I certainly wish that Senator Ryan will long continue to be a Leader of the main Opposition party.

Mr. T. Hussey

Regardless of what happened last week, nobody can deny that Item No.35 is far more important for debate on this occasion than the items selected by the Fine Gael Party. In view of the concern that has been expressed both in Castlerea, County Roscommon, and in Carlow during the week, I cannot understand how the members of the Fine Gael Party who were present at these meetings and who expressed concern for the patients and the workers in those hospitals, can sit here and tell us that Item No. 5 on the prison system is more important than the motion we are trying to propose and have discussed here. It is a shame for those people. I mention in particular Senator Connor who was present in Castlerea and who gave a commitment to the people of Castlerea, both to the patients and to the workers in that hospital, that he would do everything possible to have their case highlighted and to support them. He is going to sit today and allow the opportunity to pass of having that item discussed on the floor of this House.

An Leas-Chathaoirleach

We cannot discuss the content or the merits of anything included on the Order of Business.

Senator Connor rose.

An Leas-Chathaoirleach

Senator Connor, you have already spoken.

Mr. Connor

Not on the Order of Business. My name has been used across the floor. I would like to remind Senator Hussey that I am doing everything possible to highlight the problem of Castlerea hospital but I would not support Fianna Fáil in hypocritically trying to bring forward this motion when last week they tried to bring forward the motion about teachers. This week, because the wind has changed, as Senator O'Leary said, the teachers are no longer relevant and with hypocrisy they try to bring this forward. I do not support that. When the Castlerea motion comes before this House I will be here to speak and to vote.

Mr. Ellis

I am sorry to have to rise on the Order of Business but it is important that some of the people who are crying hypocrisy in this House should explain to us what they are talking about because the hypocrisy was from that side of the House last week when it came to the teachers and to the finishing of our motion on teachers' pay. I know that Senator Connor is a hypocrite when it comes to Castlerea. Senator de Brún at a public meeting in Castlerea said that he would raise the matter on the Adjournment.

(Interruptions.)

An Leas-Chathaoirleach

I do not need any guidance, thank you, Senator Belton. Senator Ellis, would you please stand and withdraw that remark.

Mr. Ellis

I will withdraw the remark provided Senator Connor withdraws the remark with regard to hypocrisy from this side of the House.

Mr. McDonald

I would like to point out that we are not depriving the Opposition of anything on the Order of Business. On Item No. 5 there is 30 minutes remaining. The Minister was not available last week. Fianna Fáil are entitled to that 30 minutes and then in the ordinary sequence of events Private Members' Time comes to the Fine Gael Party and we have selected Motion No. 6 in Senator Durcan's name. What the Opposition have not said is that they wish to withdraw Motion No. 5. It is up to them to decide what they want to utilise the time on.

Mr. Belton

As my name was mentioned in the House, I met Senator Ryan last week and with regard to Motion No. 5 we could not reach agreement. What I said was that we could not reach agreement last week but that if the question was down as an ordinary motion we would try to facilitate the Opposition and have it debated. That referred entirely to Motion No. 5; that was the undertaking I gave. I did not say a word about any other motion.

Mr. W. Ryan

I do not think it was No. 5 we were talking about.

Mr. Belton

We are facilitating the Opposition.

Mr. W. Ryan

I want to propose an amendment to the Order of Business. I propose that we take No. 35 at 6.30 p.m. We are only asking for one hour of your time. We are entitled to a three hour motion. We were offered one and a half hours and one half hour of that was ours anyway so, therefore, we are only asking for one hour.

Mr. McDonald

Are you withdrawing No. 5?

Mr. W. Ryan

If you agree to take No. 35, yes.

Mr. Smith

I would like to second Senator Ryan's proposal. For the past half hour we have been publicly wrangling about the Order of Business. I indicated that that is likely to be the position for the future where we cannot get agreement. I think we should take steps for the future, in view of the problems that face this country, to do our business in a more orderly way and in agreement.

Mr. Durcan

I agree with Senator Smith. We should try to arrange our business in an orderly way and in a way that ensures that the business of this House is transacted speedily and that we can represent the people for whom we are here to speak. I am appalled at the hypocrisy displayed very blatantly today by the principal Opposition party. There is a serious issue about which the principal Opposition party have expressed concern. Senator Connor showed his concern last week when he raised that on the Adjournment of the House. It was open to any member of the Opposition party to move under Order 29 of Standing Orders a motion seeking a special debate for an hour-and-a-half and they failed or neglected to do so. Senator Loughrey made the point that until very recently the main issue here was the teachers' pay dispute and those who were so concerned about that in the past are now prepared to drop the teachers by the wayside because, as Senator O'Leary said, the wind is now blowing the other way and for political opportunistic reasons that have nothing to do with the good running of this country, another issue is being raised. I fully support the Order of Business as proposed.

Mr. Smith

For the benefit of Senators who attend regularly in this House, we tried to move this motion under Standing Order 29 last week and were foiled.

An Leas-Chathaoirleach

Senator Ferris to conclude.

Mr. Cassidy

Are you still on the Order of Business? Are you calling on Senator Ferris to conclude the Order of Business or to reply to the issue at hand?

An Leas-Chathaoirleach

He is concluding on the Order of Business.

Mr. Cassidy

I would like to ask this House to call on the Minister for Finance to do everything in his power to help and to do anything a Government Minister might do in relation to Bailieboro Co-operative. The co-operative is a major employer in County Cavan.

An Leas-Chathaoirleach

It is not relevant. Senator Ferris to conclude.

Mr. Cassidy

I want to put on the record that I have grave concern for it.

An Leas-Chathaoirleach

You can put down a motion.

Mr. Robb

I would not like the occasion to pass without some mention of the dastardly killings at Maguires-bridge last night. We have heard a great tribute from this House to a remarkable Irishman, a great parliamentarian and a constitutional nationalist. We have seen how far Ireland has come in the three generations of the Dillon family. We have also to recognise the other side of the coin, that is, when people depart from constitutional and democratic methods and we find ourselves witnessing what was referred to this morning in our news. In expressing sympathy — and I am sure the rest of the House would like to join me — to the families affected, I would also like to pay tribute to the security forces on this side of the Border and to make a plea. Last week I heard in Dublin one or two people saying "Why should we spend all this money on security on this side of the Border when it is a Border that we did not seek, that we did not create and that we do not want?" Unless there is a feeling of security for the people who are isolated in south Fermanagh and south Tyrone, then that Border will increase in both depth and width. That is the great justification for having stronger security on this side of the Border comparable with what is being attempted on the other side of it. But, the same time we recognise the need to move forward in the parliamentary tradition, following the great principles of constitutional nationalism which were laid down 100 years age. The two go hand in hand.

Séamus de Brún

I would like to support Senator Ryan's amendment.

An Leas-Chathaoirleach

We will have Senator Ferris first.

Mr. Cassidy

I would like to support Senator Robb's proposal.

An Leas-Chathaoirleach

Senator Cassidy, will you sit down?

Mr. Cassidy

I must protest at how severe you are on me, a Leas-Chathaoirleach.

An Leas-Chathaoirleach

Senator Ferris.

Mr. Ferris

In proposing the Order of Business, I apologised for the fact that I had been unable to reach agreement. Perhaps that is my fault. I want to assure Senator Smith that a supreme effort was made to reach agreement. The decision about Private Members' time is a decision by agreement. It is not a Standing Order of the House. It is a consensus between the groups. The previous consensus was that a motion would last the three hours in two periods of one and a half hours each. I have already thanked Fianna Fáil for the way they had agreed to postpone the final 30 minutes. I want to assure Senator Smith, and indeed the House, that I tried to reach agreement.

Regarding the point made by Senator Ross in regard to item No. 4, the questions he raised are a matter for the Minister in the House. I am sure the Senator is aware of the Minister's public pronouncement on this issue. Whether the Minister intends to bring in a Bill of his own or not, I do not know. I am ordering the legislation as I see the need for it — Government priority, first of all, and then other Private Members' Bills and Private Members' motions. That is why it was ordered at No. 4 today. It is unlikely now with the kind of progress we are making, that we will get to it. It would be remiss of me not to order it because it is a matter of concern to many of us. It is for that reason that I ordered it as No. 4. It would be a matter for the Minister for Justice to intimate to the Senator the view of the Government, or indeed the view of the House, on the subject. We will continue on the Second Stage of this Bill unless a Government Bill is brought forward. That is my view.

Regarding Senator Ryan's proposal to amend the Order of Business, I am prepared to have further discussions, as a mediator between the two sides, if this would be of benefit to the House. May I clarify in my mind what Senator Ryan is suggesting? Is he suggesting that they would not use their 30 minutes for No. 5, but would use that 30 minutes for No. 35? If we do not have that kind of agreement, I want to know. The orders of the House say that if a matter being discussed is concluded it falls and immediately the next Private Members' Business takes over. That is how it has happened in the past. I want to know from Fianna Fáil whether they are looking for No. 35 to be taken for 30 minutes instead of No. 5 at 6.30 p.m. and then we will go on to the Fine Gael Motion No. 6. If the Chair feels that I should try to reach some other agreement, if I am allowed time I will announce to you later if I can reach agreement. I will propose the Order of Business up to 5.30 p.m., that is, Nos. 1,2, 3 and 4. If the House wants me to continue the negotiations I have had all the morning and over the weekend and yesterday, I will do so.

Mr. W. Ryan

I could not agree to that. We are asking for one and a half hours and a half hour is ours by right anyway. Therefore, we are asking for just one hour. If we cannot get that agreement it will have to go to a vote.

An Leas-Chathaoirleach

Senator William Ryan has moved an amendment to the Order of Business, that Item No. 35 be taken at 6.30 p.m. in substitution for Items Nos. 5 and 6.

Mr. Durcan

On a point of clarification, does this mean that the Opposition propose dropping their interest in Item No. 5?

An Leas-Chathaoirleach

Senator Durcan, that is not a point of order.

Mr. Smith

I second the amendment.

Amendment put.

The Seanad divided: Tá, 13; Níl, 24.

Tá

• Cassidy, Donie.
• de Brún, Séamus.
• Ellis, John.
• Fitzsimons, Jack.
• Hanafin, Des.
• Hillery, Brian.
• Hussey, Thomas.
• Kiely, Rory.
• Mullooly, Brian.
• Ross, Shane P.N.
• Ryan, Brendan.
• Ryan, William.
• Smith, Michael.

Níl

• Belton, Luke.
• Browne, John.
• Bulbulia, Katharine.
• Connor, John.
• Cregan, Denis (Dino).
• Deenihan, Jimmy.
• Durcan, Patrick.
• Ferris, Michael.
• FitzGerald, Alexis J.G.
• Harte, John.
• Higgins, Jim.
• Hourigan, Richard V.
• Howard, Michael.
• Howlin, Brendan.
• Kelleher, Peter.
• Lennon, Joseph.
• Loughrey, Joachim.
• McDonald, Charlie.
• McGonagle, Stephen.
• McMahon, Larry.
• O'Brien, Andy.
• O'Leary, Seán
• O'Mahony, Flor.
• Quealy, Michael A.

Tellers: Tá: Senators W. Ryan and Séamus de Brún; Níl: Senators Belton and Harte.

Amendment declared lost.

Order of Business agreed to.

Mr. Ellis

Now we know where the salt tears were shed.

Mr. W. Ryan

Do I understand that Item No. 5 will be taken between 6.30 p.m. and 7 p.m?

Mr. Loughrey

Do you want to discuss the matter?

Mr. Ellis

Yes.

Mr. Loughrey

Is Brian changing his mind?