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Seanad Éireann debate -
Wednesday, 12 Mar 1986

Vol. 111 No. 13

Free Ports Bill, 1985: Second Stage.

Question proposed: "That the Bill be now read a Second Time."

This is an enabling measure which when enacted will permit the establishment of free ports generally in the State. While the Bill does not, therefore, deal with any specific location, its primary purpose is to permit of the establishment of a free port at Ringaskiddy, County Cork. There are no plans to establish any other free ports for the moment. May I say Senators will find it very interesting legislation, with very considerable possibilities for the future. I am indeed privileged to have the opportunity of bringing it to this House.

The principal provisions of the Bill are:

Section 2, which enables the Minister for Communications by order to establish or vary the limits of a free port;

Section 3, which enables the Minister by order to designate persons to control and manage a free port;

Section 4, which enables the Minister to grant licences authorising the carrying on of businesses within a free port;

Section 10, which adapts the law relating to customs duties in its application to a free port; and

Section 12, which enables the Minister for Finance to make regulations providing, inter alia, for the necessary customs controls and procedures to apply to a free port.

The origins of this Bill lie in the deliberations of the Task Force on Employment in the Cork Area, which made a number of recommendations in 1984 designed to stimulate economic activity and employment in the Cork region. Among the recommendations was that a free port be established at Ringaskiddy. I will return presently to the arrangements that might be applied to that location, but first I want to indicate the nature and extent of the benefits which it is proposed would be conferred on businesses setting up in a free port.

The financial benefits will derive from deferred liability for customs duties and VAT. In the case of customs duties, the Bill provides that non-European Community goods imported into a free port will only become liable for customs duties if and when they are subsequently placed on the Community market. This is the effect of section 10 of the Bill. Goods originating in the European Community, of course, are in free circulation and are not subject to customs duties on arrival in the State in any event. The benefit of this concession to the cash flow of a particular business will depend, of course, on the nature and extent of that business. An indication of the degree of potential benefit is that the average rate of customs duty is of the order of 10 per cent.

The proposed VAT reliefs are not provided for in the Bill. They will be the subject of separate regulations to be made by the Revenue Commissioners under the VAT Act. The main thrust of the regulations will be as follows. First, a business operating within a free port would be able to import, without payment of VAT, materials, machinery etc. for use in the free port in connection with processing or manufacturing there. Secondly, VAT would be charged at the zero rate on goods supplied within the free port itself. Thirdly, goods entering the rest of the State from the free port would come under the internal VAT system if the subject of a sale, which would normally be the case, and would not then incur import VAT.

Under these arrangements finished consumer goods would not qualify for relief from VAT on importation into a free port nor in general would any other goods imported for resale. As I have said, however, relief would apply to all materials, components, plant or machinery imported for use by a manufacturing or processing concern within a free port. This is the correct approach, I believe, since the purpose of the concessions is to stimulate economic activity and therefore employment within the free port and not simply to divert normal trade from elsewhere in the State. The purpose is to stimulate this extra activity. It is not a question of diverting something which is happening in one place and putting it into another but of generating employment and extra economic activity

Apart from these financial benefits, a free port will also afford some less tangible but nonetheless real and valuable advantages, namely, a concentration of facilities and infrastructure leading to economies of scale, a more secure environment and simplification of customs procedures and documentation. These I expect to be attractive to small firms and to firms which might not otherwise become involved in re-export trade.

I envisage that the initial area to be designated as a free port at Ringaskiddy will be comparatively small. Cork Harbour Commissioners have proposed the designation of a 30 acre site of theirs at Ringaskiddy, which is beside the car ferry terminal and near the deepwater berth which will be completed later this year. The commissioners have proposed that they should develop this site in conjunction with private interests. Another possibility would be the provision and development of a site elsewhere in the area by private interests.

The designated area can be extended by order made under section 2 of the Bill when enacted as the need arises. I envisage the provision of infrastructure being phased in in line with the development of activity in the free port. I might mention that additional areas do not have to be contiguous with the area designated at the outset — for example, a separate area could be designated to cater for servicing needs of offshore drilling activity.

As regards the day-to-day management and control of the Ringaskiddy free port, I am considering a number of options. One of these would involve a joint venture between Cork Harbour Commissioners and private sector partners and this would tie in with use of the commissioners' site to which I have already referred. Private investors, of course, would expect to earn a return on their capital by providing accommodation and facilities in the free port to businesses establishing operations there. Cork Harbour Commissioners are "testing the market" as it were. They have invited potential investors in the free port to submit proposals on the basis of the joint venture approach.

The commissioners have invited submissions to be made to them on or before 21 March 1986. I expect that the commissioners will have evaluated all such submissions sometime after Easter and that they will then put a comprehensive proposal to the Department. This is one way of achieving the sort of local involvement I see as being essential to the success of the free port at Ringaskiddy. Lest I be accused of showing favouritism to the commissioners, I would like to assure the House that I am prepared to consider any proposals for management and operation of the free port at Ringaskiddy.

The designation of a person or persons to operate and manage the free port is just one step towards commencing activity in the free port. Such activity will be subject to the licencing provision of section 4 of the Bill. While full details have to be finalised, the intention is that the operator-Manager of the free port will have a significant role when applications for licences are being considered and evaluated by my Department.

I am aware that free ports in the UK have been slow to develop and that there have been criticisms that the customs regime is too rigid. Here, as in the UK, the free port will be subject to the criteria laid down in EC directives. These are very firm and very definite in most respects. We must remember that to a large extent a free port here is a free zone within a larger customs zone, the European Community. The regime in Ireland must, by virtue of our membership of the EC, be much the same as that applying to the free ports in the UK. Like the free ports in the UK, I do not expect the free port at Ringaskiddy to become an overnight success. With vigorous marketing by the operators I am confident that firms will be attracted to set up in the free port over the next few years.

I would like to stress that the Government's concern in legislating to provide free ports here is to generate additional economic activity. If the free port simply diverts economic activity from elsewhere in the State the concept will have failed. I would also like to point out that the Government have no desire that a free port should be used as a warehousing centre in which imports can be stored pending release for consumption on the home market. If that were to be the case, the free port benefit would merely serve to subsidise the importation of goods and the end result would be to increase the competitive position of imports vis-a-vis goods produced at home. As I have said already, what we wish to achieve is additional economic activity. It is in the light of these factors that applications for licences to carry on activity within the free port will be considered.

It is worth mentioning that there does exist already a number of mechanisms through which firms can suspend payment of customs duties. The inward processing regime exists for non-Community goods. Firms who export a substantial part of their production outside the European Economic Community usually qualify for this regime. A firm which does not at present qualify for inward processing could, if it set up in the free port, qualify for an inward processing type regime and thereby achieve deferment of payment of customs duty.

I am proceeding with this enabling measure now while the options for the particular arrangements as regards development and management of the Ringaskiddy free port are being investigated precisely so as to lend impetus to that investigation. The Minister for Finance, the Revenue Commissioners and I will proceed, on enactment of the Bill, to make the necessary orders and regulations as quickly as possible to bring the Ringaskiddy Free Port into being. Work on the necessary orders and regulations is proceeding.

In the course of my earlier remarks I mentioned the new deepwater berth being provided at Ringaskiddy. The cost of the berth is being met from a State grant of almost £10 million. When the berth is completed next August, it will be capable of accommodating vessels of up to 60,000 tons deadweight. It will, therefore, be the largest common user berth in the State.

As Deputies will be aware, the IDA have a fully-serviced 1,000-acre portside estate at Ringaskiddy. This site and the port at Ringaskiddy, together with industrial estates at Churchfield, Hollyhill and Togher in Cork, have been designated by the Minister for Industry and Commerce as areas which qualify for higher IDA grants than are generally made available. The Government have funded the cost of new infrastructure in the area. This includes substantial processed water supplies, effluent disposal and road improvements. With the completion of the deepwater berth and the setting up of the free port the Ringaskiddy area will, I trust, prove to be a major centre for industrial activity in the Cork area.

The acid test for the Ringaskiddy Free Port will be whether the area initially designated will require to be extended in a few years' time to cope with the scale of activity. Having regard to the extent and scale of the State-financed facilities and assistance for new industry in the Ringaskiddy area, however, I am optimistic that the free port will indeed pass this test. While the free port at Ringaskiddy will not be a panacea for the economic problems of the Cork area, it will, I am confident, be a stimulus for additional economic activity with proper development and marketing.

I commend the Bill to the House.

It is not the intention of the Fianna Fáil Party to oppose the Bill but rather to have a free and open discussion on the principles of the Bill. First, I think a little advertising touch was lost by the Minister for State and indeed the Department in naming the Bill the Free Ports Bill. They could have put on an addendum such as the "Duty Free Ports Bill" or the "Tax Free Ports Bill" or some attractive name rather than simply the Free Ports Bill. We have fallen into the usual trap that everything the British do has to be done by us in exactly the same way. I am sorry that we have not used a touch of flamboyance and gone a little further to examine opportunities which were offered to people in similar situations to ourselves. I will deal with that matter as I go along.

In this country we have the finest entrepreneurs in Europe. Only last week the Minister, or perhaps it was the Minister of State, commended the entrepreneurs of the Galway small industries section and said we had "an unparalled programme".

It is true that Irish people are very quick to grab any opportunity that comes not alone at home but in many countries throughout the world. We have seen Irish people going abroad very poor and coming home as very wealthy people on account of this ability. On that account I am sorry that the Bill got strangled in red tape. When I say that I do not mean it as a personal reflection on the Minister for State. But I get annoyed when I see sections 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8 and 8 (3) of the Bill where the Government of the day, who are responsible for this legislation, have really entangled us in a mess of red tape. Every breath that is drawn into the body of this particular project is stifled with the need for consent from the Minister. It will be tied up completely in red tape, because the bureaucracy of the Department has taken absolute and total control over the functions of this new project. I am not saying that they should not have a say. What I am saying is that they should have a say within the realm of responsibility they have. After all, there is no question or doubt that the Government will be making a major investment; and for that investment they should have control, but not to the extent that they have grabbed control. I thought that the Cork Port and Docks Board, for example — if there is such a thing — should have an input into this. The local IDA should have an input and so should Córas Tráchtála and the county development team. A very fine team exists in County Cork. There are many other organs of society in Cork, such as the Chamber of Commerce. In my opinion, they should have some input. The project should be attractive, rather than have the dullness of the Department over everything.

I thought we should have experimented slightly with the title. Instead of copying everything British, we should have looked around. I will give an instance and Senator Cregan, who is here, knows what I am talking about. The latest free port that I know of that has been put into operation is in Northern Cyprus. There is a taboo by this Government over the last few years in respect of anything in Northern Cyprus. Many Governments throughout Europe believe that the people living in that part of the island should not be allowed to breathe fresh air. However, they are a community living under the same sun and the same breeze as the rest of us and they have to live. They have provided a fine example of the free port idea, where they have private industry, the public sector, the private sector and the Government working together and giving a magnificent performance. This part of the island was a population of about 240,000 people, a little more perhaps than Galway, Mayo and Roscommon. That is a free port which has gone from strength to strength. Wisely — and I commend the Minister for the same idea — it is not allowed as a storage place for imports but it is used as a trans-shipment area and it has reaped a great reward. It is used for industrial development where they do not have the raw materials, as we do not have them in certain cases, and items are brought in and manufactured. Employment is given and the goods re-exported. This is a wonderful project which was introduced against the wishes of many Governments in Europe. It is a very viable free port and it is also a duty free port. It is an example of a small project similar to what is being done in Cork. Arklow is another suitable case and I could not leave out the west of Ireland: there are several places — Sligo would be one, Galway could be another, the Shannon Estuary could be another and so on.

It covers inland projects also.

I might come to that, too. We have a nice project going in Knock now. I hope that Minister Nealon will be helpful since he introduced the subject.

I just thought the Senator might forget.

No, I do not forget. I am talking in particular of Ringaskiddy because it is built. It is something that could develop, and perhaps it could develop in smaller units rather than in larger ones. I would like to claim at this stage that it is not a development solely for Cork. There may be other regions where a similar facility could be provided. God help anybody who tries to do so because section 2 of the Bill states that "the Minister with the consent of the Minister for Finance and the Minister for Industry and Commerce may by order declare that..." I just want to comment on this point to add force to my contention that bureaucracy has really wrapped itself around this idea to the extent that it may not be workable. Section 3 of the Bill says that each free port established under the Act shall be under the control and management of such person or persons as may be designated by order by the Minister with the consent of the Minister for Finance and the Minister for Industry and Commerce. I spent a while close to Government from 1979 to 1981. My recollection of the Department of Finance is one that, I am sure, many former Ministers of State, the present Minister of State and many Ministers share, that it was a kind of gestapo camp — you had to get in first, try to get what you wanted and try to come out safe. I cannot see how the Ringaskiddy scheme is going to work because they will have to get the blessing of that Department for everything they do. I shall have amendments down for the next Stage asking the Minister to reconsider this situation.

Under section 4, the Minister may, after consultation with the Minister for Finance and the Minister for Industry and Commerce, grant or refuse to grant to any person a licence authorising the carrying on within the free port of any trade, business or manufacture. That is totalitarian in the extreme. No other person has a say here obviously, except the Minister with the consent of the other two Ministers. I think that must be changed. I do not think it is workable, or can be workable, and for the sake of the Bill and the thought that goes into it something must be done about it.

Take the application for a licence, for example. Any person may apply to the Minister for a licence. Every application shall be in writing and must be sent to the Secretary of the Department of Communications, Dublin. It must specify the trade, business or manufacture to which the applicant desires the licence to relate and be accompanied by such information as the Minister may require. That is an unending request. The Minister could require further and further information. It will go on and go on and go on. I am a realist in what I am saying.

To be quite frank about it, if I had read the Bill with more care when it was first circulated I would actually be opposing it on Second Stage, because I believe it is not a Bill appropriate to the project in Ringaskiddy or anywhere in this country where a free port might be taken up. Under section 6 the Minister, after consultation with the other two Ministers, may attach to the licence such conditions as he thinks proper. It is too totalitarian. Also, I see that anybody who does not comply with the conditions attached to the licence shall, in addition to any other penalty to which he may be liable, be guilty of an offence under this section and shall be liable to a summary conviction of a fine not exceeding £500. The trouble about this is that the Minister is the judge and the jury. I do not see any part of the Bill where there is the right of recourse to the law. If it is written into it, let me hear in what sections of the Bill it is. If for example, any industry became competitive with an industry at home or abroad in a way the Minister or his staff might think improper, they can actually say to those involved: "You are breaking the terms of your licence". I do not see any protection under normal State law for any man to appeal against revocation of licence except to the Minister, the man that took it off him in the first instance. What is the point? It is a case of the court in hell and the devil the judge.

For those reasons I think we have gone wrong. Would it not have been a far better system if a board of directors was set up in Cork, where there was a management structure, and input by the port and docks board, where there was an input by the IDA, who are, after all, putting in a lot of money into that area for development of land. The county council and the corporation, I am sure, are giving adequate funds.

I feel certain that the county development team would have many fine ideas for smaller units. Would it not be far better if, for example, they were brought together with a ministerial appointee on the board with four representatives or three, two or ten or whatever it might be? Would it not be far better if it had got the local input into it instead of this, "The Minister has the right" and "The Minister has not the right". That is exactly what we are talking about. I just give that as an example to outline my objections to it. The idea in itself is good, but in fact the proposals in the Bill leave a lot to be desired. It is far too totalitarian.

The carrying on of trade, business or manufacture within the free port are again totally subject to the licence, which in the first instance was granted by the Minister. Subject to such conditions as the Revenue Commissioners may impose, non-Community goods brought into the port shall be exempt from import duties and shall continue to be exempt from such duties for as long as the goods remain within the free port. Non-Community goods in a free port may be subject to loading, unloading, transhipment or storage. That is the part of it I like. Therein lies an opportunity for a profit-making unit within the free port itself. I have given an example of where I have seen that at work, and that was in Northern Cyprus, where a trans-shipment programme was brought in. It is working well.

I do not wish to delay too long, because there are other speakers to follow. Generally, we are not opposing the Bill. We have great reservations in regard to the authoritarianism of the Bill in giving to the Minister all the power he wishes. To give such powers to one Minister is bad enough but to involve two more, including the Minister for Finance, is certainly, in my opinion, putting the project into reverse. There will be heels worn walking up and down to those Departments trying to get answers. Well we know it, and let us be factual. Many people will say that it is their job to examine everything and they do that job in a very fine way. Sometimes their aggressiveness in their job stops you from being progressive. Not only is the consent of the Minister for Communications required, but also that of the Minister for Finance and the Minister for Industry and Commerce. I feel that that is going to dampen the whole project. I would ask the Minister to re-examine the Bill and eliminate some of these provisos. I know he understands what I am trying to say.

We have an example of an "inland free port" at the moment in the new airport in Knock, where the major meat processing company in the country had the courage to say that, strictly for commercial reasons, they are giving thought to the building of a huge complex to store cold meat and to export a planeload per day, seven planes per week, from Knock Airport. I do not know what Minister Nealon might like to say about the idea of a free port, but certainly something should be done. I do not know if the exports from Cork Airport in any given month is as much as Halal states that they will export out of Knock Airport in a week. In fairness, they must be given a chance.

I say that as an aside because I believe that the free port idea is basically built around Ringaskiddy. However, it is no harm for this House to note that there are other ideas for freeports, and I am suggesting one now. I am sure Minister Nealon, being a West of Ireland man, realises that the statement made during the week was a very responsible one. He knows that the company I am speaking about are very reliable, a very strong company and a very viable company. They are an example to meat processors throughout the world. The amount of downstream processing meat they carry out is almost incredible. There is nothing left to process when they are finished with the carcass. That is something we encourage. Look at the employment it gives. That is really what we are talking about. In his reply, or at a later stage, the Minister might give some thought to the idea of having a fresh look at this situation to see if anything could be done. In saying that I do not want to take away from the Ringaskiddy project or the freeport, if we are talking about sea shipping. The idea of this Bill is very welcome, but the manner in which it is presented to us is, to me, rather shocking. It is something I am rather against.

As a Cork Senator, I welcome the opportunity to speak on this Bill. The origins of the Bill lie in the deliberations of the Task Force on Employment in the Cork Area, which made a number of recommendations in 1984, designed to stimulate economic activity and employment in the Cork region. We are all aware that unemployment struck Cork very severely over the past three years, especially with the closure of Ford's, Dunlop's and the Verolme dockyard. These companies between them employed in excess of 2,000 people. When they closed they affected a number of service industries depending on them, which resulted in tremendous hardship for the Cork area. Among the recommendations of the task force was that a free port be established at Ringaskiddy, this task force was made up of representatives of Cork County Council, Cork Harbour Commissioners, Cork Corporation and the IDA.

I compliment them on these recommendations. A Cork Senator does not have to ask why Ringaskiddy was chosen. The facilities in Ringaskiddy do not exist anywhere else in the country and, as such, are a national asset. Tremendous investment has been put into the IDA scheme there over the past number of years and Cork County Council have spent approximately £47 million. This expenditure has been used in bringing Ringaskiddy up to the standards necessary for the anticipated traffic in to and out of the area. The land bank in the possession of the IDA amounts to 1,000 acres and there are options for further land acquisitions there also. The largest quantity of processed water provided anywhere in the country is also laid on. Effluent disposal facilities exist and a deep water berth is in the course of construction, costing approximately £10 million. It is necessary therefore, that we would complement the facilities that exist there by having a free port.

The Minister has also told us that the Cork area has special privileges in that special IDA grants have already been given to it. He has stated that these grants will apply to the free port area as well as to the other two estates, Togher and Hollyhill. The Government have funded, at huge costs, the improving of infrastructure in this area.

Section 2 of the Bill gives the Minister power to establish or vary the limits of the free port area. I hope the success of this free port will prove that this area is inadequate, which at the moment stands at approximately 30 acres. I am sure that the Minister will increase the size of the site when necessary.

Section 3 enables the Minister, by order, to designate people to control and manage the free port. We recently discussed the National Development Corporation Bill in this House and one of the guarantees by the Minister then was that the composition of that board would have to be people of the highest calibre in order for it to succeed. I am sure the same criterion will apply here and that the people controlling this area will have a sound track record and will ensure that, in the final analysis, the decisions to be taken will be based on what is best for the commercial viability and future of the port.

At the outset we should be clear in our minds that the purpose of a free port is to stimulate economic activity and create employment in the region. The very fact that a port is established in a particular area means that a range of benefits is conferred on business setting up in such ports. The financial benefits will derive from deferred liabilities for customs duties and VAT. In the case of customs duties the Bill provides that the non-European Community goods imported into a free port will become liable for customs duty only if and when they are subsequently placed on the community market. Goods originating in the European Community, of course, are in free circulation and are not subject to customs duties on arrival in the State in any event. The benefit of this concession to the cash flow of a business will depend on the nature and extent of that business. An indication of the degree of potential benefit is that the average rate of customs duty is of the order of 10 per cent.

The Minister of State stated in his introductory remarks that there are no proposals in this Bill for VAT reliefs but that they would be the subject of several regulations to be made by the Revenue Commissioners under the VAT Act. I understand that the main thrust of the regulations will be as follows: First, a business operating within a free port will be able to import without payment of VAT materials, machinery and so on for use in the free port in connection with processing or manufacturing there. Secondly, VAT will be charged at a zero-rate on goods supplied within the free port. Thirdly, goods entering the rest of the State from the free port would come under the internal VAT system if the subject of a sale, which would normally be the case, and would not then incur import VAT.

I understand that under these arrangements finished consumer goods would not qualify for relief from VAT on importation into a free port, nor in general would any other goods imported for re-sale. Relief would apply to all materials, components, plant or machinery imported for use by manufacturing or processing concerns within a free port. We are advised that this is the correct approach since, as I have already said, the purpose of the concessions is to stimulate economic activity and, therefore, employment within the free port and not simply to divert normal trade from elsewhere in the State. It is well to remember that a free port will also afford some less tangible but nonetheless real and valuable advantages apart from the financial benefits I have already mentioned, advantages such as a concentration of facilities and infrastructure, leading to economies of scale, a more secure environment, simplification of customs procedures and documentation, which of course would be extremely attractive to small firms and firms which might not otherwise become involved in the re-export trade.

There are more than 400 free ports throughout the world at present. It is believed that about 20 per cent of world trade takes place through them. Most of this growth in trade through free ports is taking place in less developed and developing economies where they have been a spectacular success. It can be said that the most successful free port in the world is in Miami, which is the biggest privately-owned venture in the world. The most important aspect is, of course, its location, because it can deal with the United States, Central and Southern America and Europe. It has a unique position geographically for this kind of development. It has the added attraction of a large cargo airport beside it, the port being the third largest container terminal on the east coast of the United States. The United Kingdom has already designated six areas where they hope to establish successful free ports. These are at Belfast, Birmingham, Liverpool, Cardiff, Prestwick and Southampton. The British Government, while giving every encouragement for their success, have given also an ultimatum that the ports should develop within a five-year period. Reports to date indicate that Liverpool and, in particular, Southampton are the most successful.

There is a lesson to be learned from this in that from the start it is obvious that Southampton and Liverpool enjoyed natural advantages over the other centres. This is an important point and it is one that should be at the forefront of our thinking in this area. Ringaskiddy, as a free port, should be supported. Every effort should be made to ensure its success.

I, like the other speakers, welcome the Bill. We, in the Republic of Ireland, recognised before the British that there was a need for free zones and free ports. In March 1983 we stated that we should consider Ringaskiddy and Cork as a free zone and free port area.

I have reservations on the Bill. There is an enormous amount of legislation involved which concerns many ministerial offices. Before I mooted the idea of a free port in Cork, I investigated the situation elsewhere, for example, to find out what exactly free ports mean, what they can do for an area and for a country. Our rules are very stringent as regards initiative and transport facilities. Our customs and tax rules are stringent. I have seen situations elsewhere where, because of the facilities being given in a free zone—I emphasise free zone, rather than free port because there is a definition of a zoned area and a port facility—enormous investment has been created. Other Senators have already mentioned this.

I envisage this facility in the Cork area. The Cork area needs it. The amount of old heavy industry that has been lost in Cork over the last few years has had a disastrous effect on the city and county. Because of the direct and indirect service that had been provided to those industries there is in the region of 10,000 to 12,000 fewer people working. This is not good for a city like Cork. The idea of a free port was pushed in order to generate confidence and initiative in the area. I am happy to say that, despite arguments made at parliamentary level in the early months of 1983, the Government were prepared to consider it and it was recommended through a task report in 1984.

Like Senator Killilea, I must state that we are not going far enough on this. Are we showing enough initiative? Are we being too negative? Are we motivating people properly? There is no reason why we should not be considering free ports if they are going to create employment. We badly need it in all areas. The Government recognise that there is a need for a free zone and free port facilities in Cork.

The definition of a free port in the Bill is not broad enough. We are naive and small-minded. Since I mooted the idea of a free port in 1983 I have checked out other areas. In the Bill, there is a strong emphasis on the European Economic Community. I appreciate this but the fact of the matter is that the vast majority of free ports set up in Europe were there well before the EC was created. For example, Hamburg is a city which has a massive free zone. It is in the region of seven miles long and two miles wide. There are no problems there. If we tell the people in Hamburg that because of EC rulings they cannot now have it, what answer would we get? We have to be realistic about this. What argument can we put to the people, not alone in Cork but in other areas? Can we say that because of EC rulings we cannot do this and we cannot do that? Hamburg can do what they like and other countries in the main part of Europe. This is not good enough for me. If we are going to create a situation whereby we are giving the impression that there is a free zone in Ringaskiddy with many restrictions and that because of EC rulings we cannot do such and such, this will not work.

I have examined this whole question in other areas outside of the EC. I should like to quote from a booklet about income tax exemption in a free zone which says that the salaries of persons working within the free zone are not subject to income taxes. People working within these zones do not pay taxes.

Would the Senator say where that is?

There is nothing wrong with paying no taxes.

To give an example, Turkey applied for membership of the EC in 1974 and were being considered in 1964, long before Ireland. The facts are that these people see the advantage. There are four areas in Turkey the size of Castlebar that have free zones and free port facilities. This is an example of what these people are prepared to do to get people in to create employment, and not to take things from them, but to give the initiative to the people in the oil business to work. We may not get taxes from it but we do not have to pay the people who work there. The facts are that the investments are the incentives. Investors may bring into the free zone any inputs they require from foreign locations without being subject to any taxes, duties or tolls. It is stated in the Bill that the Government may consider the idea of no taxes, or may consider the idea of no duties. We are not committed to saying that we are not going to charge taxes; we must be committed. We must tell the people to go in there and create jobs, and leave it at that. This is the incentive that we must give to the people. We have countries like Japan and the United States selling their goods in Europe.

I envisaged, and still do, the idea that if we are going to put into the lower area of Ringaskiddy an amount of about £112 million, what will be the investment in infrastructure by the State and Europe when the deepwater berth is finished, we must have tonnage to the amount of 70,000 tonnes. We should have ships never seen in Ireland before. What are we going to do about it — create a bird sanctuary? What is it going to be? Are we going to give the initiative to people to come in and say "fit it up, but we don't want to know about you but we want people working"? To get people working is the first priority in my mind. I am not saying that it will be a miracle. I am not under any allusion, but I believe that there is an advantage there and there is no way anybody in the EC that already has the same advantages can say to me that I cannot benefit, because that is illegal. How can anybody else in the EC say to us: "You cannot do that in Ireland because we already have it in Hamburg"? These are the facts. We are going to invest money in proper infrastructure. I am not saying that Ringaskiddy should not have been created. I do not want to see it as a bird sanctuary. People have already asked us to build something in Ringaskiddy for them and when it was there they pulled out. Nobody questioned them on it but it was the B + I. These are the people and they have another £36 million about which they do not want to talk.

I see a situation here, a Leas-Chathaoirligh, in which we must give every advantage. I do not want one Minister's Department questioning another Department about whether or not we can do this or that. We must do it. Nobody must have any say if we get anything moving down here. Imagine what the IDA are spending at the moment to get anybody to set up an industry. Over the past three or four years, off the east coast of Ireland, we have people who are interested in the oil industry and the rig situation. A situation was created whereby all the equipment that was provided for all the rigs on our east coast never came near our land. It was cheaper for these people to send heavy shipping up and down the Irish Sea to get to Aberdeen so that they could carry that stuff from Aberdeen right down to the rigs. It was cheaper for them to do that than to get heavier ships to bring it into our ports. It could not be put on land and taken off again because it was costing too much. How ridiculous can we be? These people could not put the equipment on board in any part of Ireland, whether it be Waterford, Rosslare or Cork. The amount of work that was created in Great Britain for servicing off our coast was unbelievable, as was the amount of money that was spent. We must create a free zone. Ships must be able to land goods there and take them out again. This creates work — lifting, handling and reloading. There is retransportation. The service provides for it. The Bill recognises the idea of a free port, but it certainly does not legislate at this stage for the type of free port. It does not say what type of people can come in. Could one imagine every advantage being given here to people to come in and create a situation such as that in Turkey? I did not want to mention that country. People might not like the idea of it because they——

Only the Commies would not like it.

The facts are, whether we like it or not, that these people see the light——

(Interruptions.)

Only the Reds are worried about Turkey.

The IDA have made an impression, locally, in our area. There is recognition from a national and local point of view of the potential of Cork city and county. Cork is an old heavy industry area. Cork port has been working for the last 300 years. A great deal of work was carried out in our port area. All of a sudden there was rapid deterioration. It is just dying a death. That is a fact. All of a sudden we have created this position and now there is new light. There is new motivation in people. We will have a look at the situation in another few years, that is not good enough. Can we imagine the heavy tonnage that is going into Western Europe? Can we imagine the tonnage that is going into Rotterdam? Can we bring about a situation where we might stop about 10 per cent of it from going there because it is held there too long? Maybe a 70,000 tonne ship, rather than going further, would pull into Cork, discharge, and redistribute from Cork, because there is a free zone area there. A shipper might feel he could drop off and get smaller ships to go into smaller harbours. That is why I am talking about free zone areas. Could we handle the total distribution of Japanese cars from Ireland to feed Europe? Could anybody envisage that or do you think it can happen? Why not? Why could we not be the main distributors for Japanese cars in the total area of Europe? It can be done, if we give the incentive. The country is idle so we have the room to do it. We can redistribute from Ireland. It need not be from Cork but we have another free zone on the east coast. After all Great Britain are doing it in Belfast. They are doing it, and maybe they see the light from there. That is the type of selling we should be doing. This is what we should be saying to people who want to set up in our country. We should point out the advantages they have not got elsewhere, particularly in port areas. The advantage that we have here is not in other countries. The advantage is a fast turn around with heavy tonnage. There is no way that a heavy tonnage ship can be held up.

Debate adjourned.
Sitting suspended at 5.30 p.m. and resumed at 6.30 p.m.
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