This is a Seanad Bill which has been amended by the Dáil. In accordance with Standing Order No. 82 it is deemed to have passed its First, Second and Third Stages in the Seanad and it is placed on the Order Paper for Report Stage. On the question that the Bill be received for Final Consideration the Taoiseach may explain the purport of the amendment by the Dáil and this is looked upon as the report of the Dáil amendments to the Seanad. The only matter, therefore, that may be discussed is the amendment made by the Dáil. For the convenience of the Senators I have arranged for the printing and circulation to them of that amendment. The question proposed is "That the Bill be received for Final Consideration" and the Senators may speak only once on this question.
National Archives Bill, 1985 [Seanad Bill Amended by the Dáil]: Report and Final Stages.
In the Dáil on the Committee Stage of this Bill there were, in fact, only three amendments, two of which were identical to amendments put forward in the Seanad, which I had not accepted, and this amendment before us today. It is a measure of the thoroughness of the work done in the Seanad that the Dáil did not have more to say on the subject. This amendment was put down by Deputy John Kelly and relates to the question of penalties in section 18. He suggested that the penalties involved might in certain circumstances not do justice to the seriousness of an offence. The penalties involved were £800 on a summary conviction or a term of imprisonment not exceeding 12 months. It was suggested that stiffer penalties might be needed in more serious cases and it would be open to proceed for conviction on indictment. For that purpose it is proposed that if that happened a fine not exceeding £10,000 or, at the discretion of the court, two years imprisonment be imposed. That amendment commended itself to me. I hope we will never have occasion to use it but nonetheless it is important that we should have a very severe penalty in case there is a really serious breach of the provisions of the Bill.
Acting Chairman
As there is a division does the House wish to adjourn while the Taoiseach attends it?
I understand I have a pairing for the vote.
I would like to welcome this amendment which has been made by the Dáil. I do not think the Seanad will have any difficulty whatsoever in agreeing to it. We were concerned in our debates with the prime importance of the archives, and the fact that this amendment gives additional protection to the archives by way of additional threat for those who would attempt to deprive us or damage the archives in any way is something that will also be welcomed by the Seanad.
I also welcome what the Taoiseach has said in regard to the way in which this Bill has gone through both Houses of the Oireachtas. We had an excellent debate here while the Bill was before us and I am glad to see that we did our work with such thoroughness that only a single additional suggestion has been made in regard to it.
Regarding the background of the division bell I would like to thank the Taoiseach, or whoever was responsible for having him paired, for the fact that we do not have disruption of our business which is all too common. We would only hope that this might become a permanent practice.
I, too, would like to welcome this amendment. It is a very important amendment to what is also an important section. While the Taoiseach is here I might say that I did at one stage attempt to get copies of plans of houses from the congested district boards through the Land Commission and that I failed in that. It was an area in which I was particularly interested. Perhaps on another occasion I might get some cooperation from the Taoiseach in that area.
Regarding the amendment, I am not familiar with the procedure in relation to the different courts but it seems to me that a summary conviction is dependent on the value in question. It seems to me that it is very difficult when dealing with archives to fix a definite value on documents or other items. It seems to be an arbitrary procedure. Does the Taoiseach envisage that there might be a problem in this regard? Otherwise, I agree wholeheartedly with what has been said. This is a very desirable amendment.
I should like to add my words of welcome to this amendment. Anything that emphasises the importance of our national archives and that underlines the value with which we all hold them, for example, this amendment, must be welcomed. It just strengthens the commitment that lies behind the Bill and indeed the Bill itself. I am delighted to note that all the work we did on this Bill, as it passed through the Seanad, is reflected in the Dáil procedure and that, in fact, just this tiny amendment came back. I would use this occasion to make a plea that more and more legislation would be initiated in this House so that we can do the work so effectively. I thank the Taoiseach for his compliments on that today.
I feel that a certain status was given to this Bill by the fact that the Taoiseach came into this House and debated it at great length with us and took to heart the various points we made. That is something I would like to see recurring.
I would like to welcome the fact that the Bill is now reaching a satisfactory conclusion. Unfortunately I was not able to speak on it when it was in the House before but I had a very particular interest in it. Consequently I take this occasion to welcome the fact that it has reached a conclusion.
I thank the Senators for their kind remarks. I am glad that Senator Ryan is here on this occasion. I am sorry he was not able to participate in the debate as I know he would have been interested in it and would have contributed notably to it.
With regard to the point raised by Senator Fitzsimons the question of by which method to proceed would be a matter of judgment by the authorities at the time. In accepting the amendment from Deputy Kelly I did not work out in my mind a very clear distinction or basis for distinction. That would have to be done ad hoc on any given occasion, but I think one could at least envisage a distinction between, for example, a case where there was an individual case of a document being purloined or something like that and a case where somebody set about doing this as a regular process and making a business of it. I do not know whether I have any legal basis for making that distinction in my own mind because I have not considered in any detail the point the Senator has raised. It seems to me that one should at least allow for the possibility that there might be a case of particular gravity for which the proposed penalty would seem inadequate. Therefore, the amendment commended itself to me, to the Dáil and now to the Seanad.
I would like to thank the House again for the way they received this Bill. In relation to what Senator Bulbulia said I am concerned to see if Bills could be initiated in the Seanad. In discussions in Government and in considering a programme of legislation we have been giving consideration to that and we have quite recently been earmarking certain Bill as ones which would be particularly useful to have initiated in this House. I assure the House that this is the way in which I would wish to proceed as frequently as possible.