Seanad Éireann debate -
Tuesday, 27 May 1986

Vol. 113 No. 1

Report of Committee on Procedure on Privileges—Repairs to Seanad Chamber: Motion.

Mr. Ferris

I move:

That the Report of the Committee on Procedure and Privileges (T.274) dated the 23rd May, 1986 on Repairs to Seanad Chamber be adopted.

The background to this situation for the record of the House, is that it was raised by Senator Howard as a matter on the Adjournment of the House on 5 December 1985. At that time Deputy Joe Bermingham, the Minister of State at the Department of Finance, informed the House that the removal of some of the plaster in the recess area had revealed the existence of dry rot and wet rot. The only course available to his Office was to engage a rot eradication firm to investigate thoroughly the areas concerned.

In addition the timber beam which supported the upstand at the front of the recess had weakened and would have to be replaced. Until the full extent of the rot was known he regretted that he was not in a position to give any indication of the completion date. The commissioners would ensure that very special attention would be given to the work and that weekend would also be availed of. He also referred to the necessity of securing clearance as a factor in the time taken on the entire project.

By direction of the Cathaoirleach on the 21 February 1986 the concern of Senators regarding the progress on the work and the undignified and makeshift appearance of this Chamber was communicated to the Office of Public Works. A statement in reply from the Chairman of the Commissioners was received by the Cathaoirleach on 26 February 1986 and reported by him to the Seanad on that day.

The statement indicated that as a result of the preparatory work undertaken to replace the large timber beam which had sagged in the middle and which supported the upstand at the front of the recess in the Chamber structural weakness had come to light in the form of excessive cracks in the wall supporting the beam. So far these cracks had only been investigated above the level of the false ceiling. It would be necessary therefore to strip the wall of the Chamber and possibly continue down through the Library and into the foundations of this Chamber. What was originally a job of plaster repair work, slow and labour-intensive but largely cosmetic, has now escalated into a major structural operation. Under existing working arrangements the repairs could involve some risk to the Senators and would take an inordinate amount of time. The Chairman of the Commissioners added that detailed proposals would be submitted to him by the Commissioners within three weeks and that he would bring them to the attention of the Cathaoirleach.

A letter on the 19 March from the Office of Public Works addressed to the Cathaoirleach stated that they had completed the examination of the structural failure as far as they could above the temporary ceiling, that this had revealed a structural crack about 10 to 12 millimetres wide which it would be necessary to repair before replacing the protective beam at the front of the recess and that owing to the necessity to strip the wall of the Chamber, possibly down to the Library, the Office of Public Works would need to have possession of the recess for a considerable length of time. It was suggested that the Seanad might wish in the circumstances to consider vacating the Chamber completely. Alternative locations would include the ante room and suggested layouts for the ante room accompanied that particular letter.

The Committee on Procedure and Privileges then considered the situation at their meeting on 25 March 1986 at which representatives of the Office of Public Works attended. The representatives informed the Committee that, while the work was still at an investigative stage the estimate was that the work would be completed by the end of the 1987 Summer Recess on the basis that the Chamber would be available to the Office of Public Works from the summer of 1986. To the proposal that the work be broken down between plaster work and structural repair work allowing for the latter to be completed in time for the Chamber to be used for our sittings in the Autumn, the plaster work repair continuing as before above the temporary ceiling on non-sitting days, the Office of Public Works indicated that while it was feasible, the work overall would take very much longer and could not be completed before the Spring of 1988.

The Committee decided then that all alternative locations and possibilities which were raised previously to that should be investigated including the Oireachtas Library, Restaurant, and a revised detailed layout for the anteroom, taking account of the various points that were raised by the Committee on Procedure and Privileges and that that would be prepared for us.

Following this decision the Cathaoirleach, in a letter of 26 March 1986, outlined the position to the Ceann Comhairle and inquired whether the Dáil Committee on Procedure and Privileges would assent to a proposal from our committee to locate the Seanad in the Oireachtas Library or Restaurant. The Ceann Comhairle, in reply, intimated that he would do everything in his power to help. He felt it would be more appropriate that the Joint Services Committee should consider this matter in the first instance. The matter was then put to the Joint Committee by letter on 7 April this year. In their reply on 23 April they stated that, while they were sympathetic to this request, the possible disruption of services to Members would not be tolerated generally and regretted that they could not accede to our request.

In a letter on 7 May 1986 the Office of Public Works submitted a revised layout for the ante-room which was the only alternative available to us. The Committee on Procedure and Privileges considered the problem at their meetings on 13 and 14 May. The issues considered were: (a) not to vacate the Chamber on the basis that the structural work could be carried out during the summer recess and that the decorative plaster work would be undertaken under the conditions at present existing in the Chamber; or (b) to move to the ante-room; or (c) to move to a more suitable location outside Leinster House. The committee eliminated option (c) on the grounds that it would be unacceptable to Senators, not least because of the great inconvenience regarding a Chamber some distance from Leinster House.

The Office of Public Works representatives stated that if option (b) was decided on and the Chamber was made available to them from the summer of 1986, all the work would be completed and the Chamber restored to the Seanad in an enhanced condition by October 1987 at the latest. An earlier date would be achieved if possible. Option (a) would take longer since they would not have possession of the Chamber on sitting days and the necessary clean-up work before each sitting day would further reduce the amount of working time available.

The committee's considered conclusion was that the aim must be to secure possession of a refurbished Chamber at the earliest possible time. The conditions under which the Seanad had to carry out their functions were at present barely tolerable and were not consonant with the status of a House of the Oireachtas. A further prolonged period under such conditions would not be acceptable to the Committee on Procedure and Privileges.

The committee, therefore, decided that the only option open to them in all the circumstances was to vacate the Chamber and to endeavour to recreate the facilities of the Chamber in the ante-room. The layout proposed by the Office of Public Works would in general recreate the format of this Chamber. It would provide seats and desks for at least 46 Members sitting at one time which in normal experience would suffice. Because of the particular interests of some Senators, not all 60 Senators sit here at the same time. It would be possible to provide additional seats should this necessity arise. An ante-room of good proportions with access to the temporary Chamber and to the Seanad corridor would be constructed within the existing Seanad Chamber with all necessary facilities. The layout and facilities would be inspected by the committee in good time before the resumption of sittings after the summer recess.

The Committee on Procedure and Privileges regret the circumstances which have forced them to take the view they have now taken. I am formally recommending to the Seanad that, from the resumption of sittings after the summer recess, the Seanad should meet in the ante-room and that the Office of Public Works be requested to take whatever steps are necessary to complete the work in this Chamber by early 1987.

I formally move the report. I am sorry it is a little bit longer than usual but it is important that Senators should be aware of the details. We are faced with no alternative but to suggest that we should use the ante-room so that the Office of Public Works will have full possession of the Chamber to be able to do their business uninterrupted by us and by the sittings. I hope it meets with the approval of the House.

Mr. Browne

I missed the beginning of the speech. Have we any update as to what is going on behind the secret panel? What stage is it at, after nine months. I am shocked to find that the work will take until October 1987. Could we have a report on that?

Acting Chairman

I will ask the Leader of the House to reply to that. It seems that the Committee on Procedure and Privileges have not been able to give any definite decision with regard to the best option to take up, until they made this final report.

Mr. Browne

I am asking if they have been working. We can hear nothing.

Acting Chairman

The Leader will reply to the debate.

Mr. Durcan

In view of the unfortunate conditions that have arisen within this Chamber and in view of the unfortunate circumstances which force us, as legislators, to work under the most appalling circumstances — and for those reasons I support the acceptance of the report of the Committee on Procedure and Privileges — it is important to put on the record my own view. It is appalling that we, as members of the Seanad, have been forced to work in this Chamber and to try to legislate for the Irish people under the type of conditions we have become used to over the past number of months.

I would like to re-echo the sentiment expressed by Senator Browne as to what has been happening for the past number of months. We have been working within this scaffolded chamber for the past number of months. We have not heard any sound. There is a general feeling that nothing has been happening for the past number of months. I would like to put that question to the Deputy Leader of the House. It is extremely important for democracy that we as a second Chamber, be seen to work within circumstances and within physical conditions which are appropriate to the important constitutional functions we carry out.

We have heard in recent days many comments from various people that we, as part of the Oireachtas, should be abolished. If one views the physical surrounds here, there is very strong reason to suppose that physically we are about to be abolished. If we are to have a future at all it is extremely important that that we should be housed within acceptable physical surroundings.

I should also like to raise one or two other issues which are relevant to the status and physical furnishing of this room. This is an historic room, not merely as an important part of Leinster House as an historic building, but as having housed the Seanad established under Bunreacht na hÉireann and established under the 1922 Constitution.

The first issue I should like to raise is the whereabouts of the casket which was an essential part of the old Seanad. It is a very beautiful piece of workmanship which was presented to this house by former Senator Alice Stopford Greene, which contained a scroll signed by every member of the then Seanad. I believe it is now housed in the basement of the Royal Irish Academy. I hope when this room is restored to its former splendour the tradition which existed formerly, whereby the casket was carried in for every sitting of the House, will be revived. I should like to put those views on the record as it is an appropriate debate for doing so. The second point I should like to raise——

Acting Chairman

Let us hope it is relevant. With regard to the first point the Senator raised, the position is that the casket is retained by the Royal Dublin Society. The Senator can raise that on any other occasion, but we are dealing with the report now.

Mr. Durcan

The report has to deal with repairs to the Seanad. The second point I am talking about is repairing the Seanad. One sees the walls of this chamber with its magnificent fireplace, timberwork and ceiling now hidden from view. One cannot but ask the question: why do we not have on the walls of this chamber or the walls of the Seanad ante-room more portraits of former Members of this House? It is in this context, speaking of repairs to the Seanad Chember, that I raise the question: could our Committee on Procedure and Privileges ask the question which the Dáil Committee on Procedure and Privileges failed to answer? Could we accede to a request by an individual to the Dáil committee and hang within our portion of this House a painting of a former Member of the Seanad, former Senator Noel Browne, by a distinguished Irish artist Robert Ballagh?

That request was turned down by the Dáil committee on the basis that there was no precedent for hanging portraits of former Members in Leinster House. There is a precedent for hanging portraits of former Members of the Seanad in Leinster House as the portrait of former Senator Johnston hangs in the corridor off the main hall, going towards the Dáil staircase. I raised these issues at this stage because I believe they are relevant to the repairs of the Seanad Chamber, to enhancing the role of the Seanad within our democracy and to our overall future. I would hope the Leader of the House might address himself to them in his reply.

Acting Chairman

Senator Howard, to speak to the report.

Mr. Howard

I will speak to the report. As you will recall, I have spoken on past occasions about the conditions under which we survive here. In relation to the report, out of courtesy I must say I welcome it at this late stage. It is, as you will recall, 12 months since it was first decided that this particular Chamber was in need of repairs. An assurance was given that these repairs would be carried out during the summer recess, 1985. We returned to find that this contraption that surrounds us was in its initial stages of construction. A number of us engaged in an outcry which resulted in the Committee on Procedure and Privileges being directed to get to terms with the Office of Public Works in relation to repairs.

I had a notice on the Adjournment in December last in connection with the matter. We are now approaching 1 June, when at long last we get an indication of where we are going and what is going to happen. We are moving out next door and, apparently, work is going to commence here. I want to check this with the Leader of the House: I have spoken with some representatives of the Office of Public Works over the past few months. They have told me that despite the fact that we have this false ceiling here work is continuously going on making moulds, preparing plaster casts, and so on. If that is the case, then they must be ready to get the job completed. I am afraid I do not have the confidence that that is going to happen.

I was not too long in this House with the Leas-Cathaoirleach when there was a fire in the bar and a job that was supposed to take four months to complete took two years and nine months. Therefore, when I hear a date of September or October 1987 for the completion of repairs to the Chamber, if the progress is at a similar pace to the progress of the Office of Public Works in restoring the bar, from now to autumn 1987 is only one-third of the period, if they move at their normal pace. To me that is not acceptable and cannot be accepted.

When I spoke on the Adjournment last December on this matter I said that unless that Office showed the respect that a House of Parliament is entitled to I would ask for the resignation of the chairman of that body. I have not moved from that position. I want, therefore, to conclude by proposing that we do not accept a completion date of September 1987. I am proposing that we set a completion date of early 1987, the beginning of the year and that in the meantime there is a monthly progress report from the Committee on Procedure and Privileges on the work going ahead.

Therefore, I am proposing, if I am in order, that we set a deadline of early 1987 and that we instruct the Committee on Procedure and Privileges to deliver to us a monthly progress report on the work.

Mr. Harte

I have a procedural problem. We either accept the report in total or we do not accept it at all. We cannot amend it. This is the report of the Committee on Procedure and Privileges. I would also like to point out to the House that what we are dealing with here — no matter what the Leader of the House said, he gave us a full explanation of what the pros and cons were, and it is all on the record — is a recommendation from the Committee on Procedure and Privileges, through the Seanad, that from the resumption of the sitting after the summer recess the Seanad meet in the ante-room and that the Office of Public Works be requested to take whatever measures are necessary to complete the work early in 1987. That is the proposition. Having said that, I take the Senator's point of view about the delays etc. but it does specify early in 1987. I have no doubt that the Leader of the House will have taken note and will go back to the Committee on Procedure and Privileges on the basis of the debate here, but we cannot amend the report. We either accept the report or reject it.

Mr. Howard

On a point of clarification, that relates to the first of my two propositions. My second proposition was that the Committee on Procedure and Privileges — who, in fact, I will not exclude from all blame in relation to the slow progress here — would report monthly to us. Would the Acting Chairman be good enough to advise me on how I can enshrine that in our deliberations?

Acting Chairman

This is a report from members of the Committee on Procedure and Privileges and we can have an open discussion on it.

Professor Hillery

With great reluctance I accept the alternative of the ante-room. It is far from ideal, but in the circumstances if it helps speed up completion of the repair work, we will reluctantly go along with it.

I want to strongly support the proposal of Senator Howard in relation to monitoring the progress of the repairs. I, too, share the lack of confidence in the target indication we have got in the report as to its completion date. I would like to ask the Leader of the House what procedures are now in place to monitor the progress on the repair work. Second, having listened to that I, too, would like to think that we would have, as Senator Howard has said, a regular monthly report on the progress itself. The contraption above us is necessary, but is embarrassing. To the extent that the change to the ante-room will speed up the completion of the repair work I reluctantly go along with it. I look forward to the response of the Leader of the House to the questions I have raised.

Mr. Kiely

I accept the report also. We have to find alternative accommodation while the necessary work is being carried out in this Chamber. I am sure that of all the alternatives looked at, in relation to where we would sit, the ante-room would be the ideal place. What is worrying me is that we are moving so slowly. Other Senators may have expressed the same view. I was not present when Senator Howard made his contribution. I was surprised that this item was included in the Order of Business for today, because I was here earlier at the Order of Business and there was not a mention of it at that time. What was ordered was Nos. 1, 2 and 3 and there was not a mention of No. 4. There was a question asked about it, but——

Acting Chairman

The Order of Business was amended at 5.30 p.m.

Mr. Kiely

I cannot understand that the Order of Business can be amended from time to time, but I accept it. In regard to paragraph 3 of the report will there be delays in the completion of this necessary work. Are we sure it is going to be completed by October 1987? Will there be other delays that we do not yet foresee? I will read paragraph three of the report.

A plan indicating the position of scaffolding and assurances on the matter referred to were received from the Office of Public Works on the 1 July 1985 and were considered and approved by the committee at its meeting on the 12 July, 1985. The scaffolding was in position when the Seanad reassembled on 25 September. The necessity for security clearance of all persons engaged in the work had delayed the erection of this scaffolding.

I cannot understand how this could cause a delay. Will there be delays in the progress of the work? Are we sure that whoever will be here will be able to come into this Chamber as Senators in October 1987?

Mr. Ferris

I thank the House for the consideration of this report. I share the frustrations, disappointments and concerns of Members as indeed do all the members of the Committee on Procedure and Privileges, on which all parties are represented. They have discussed it at length. We have reached agreement finally in this recommendation to the Seanad. I want to reassure Senator Kiely that it was agreed to take this as an additional item on Order of Business to try to get the decision formulated as quickly as possible. That was done by agreement.

Acting Chairman

Can I interrupt for a minute? I know it is probably unprecedented, but what happened was that Senator Ross was actually walking up for something here. I did not realise he wanted to speak and I called to conclude.

Mr. Ross

Thank you very much. I was just picking up an Order Paper. I did not mean to interrupt the proceedings.

Acting Chairman

You picked the right Chairman.

Mr. Ross

I always pick my Chairman very carefully. I knew you would be sympathetic. I am a little disappointed that the Order of Business was changed so late today because it is very difficult for those of us who are not in the House all the time, or cannot be in the House all the time, to know that the Order of Business is changed at 5.30 p.m. The Order of Business today appears to have been slightly chaotic. This is not a criticism of Senator Ferris, because his attendance as Acting Leader of the House has been impeccable as has been his performance and his conscientiousness. There was a mistake today, and as a result of that we have a little bit of difficulty in debating this quite important matter because Senators around the House and outside the House do not know this debate is going on.

The first thing that has got to be said about the surroundings of the Seanad at the moment is that the situation is absolutely farcical. It cannot be tolerated. We are all agreed that the situation as it stands cannot continue. We are sitting in a particularly ugly building, surrounded by plywood — beauty board — and scaffolding. This is not in keeping with the traditions of this House. Something has to be done about it. The press and the visitors' gallery are all crowded together. There is a limitation at the moment on the number of visitors who may be here. That is unacceptable as well. I have brought visitors here and they have not been able to come in because at one stage only four visitors were allowed at a time, which is not acceptable for a House of this sort. I do not think the ante-room is suitable. I am probably going to lose on this but the ante-room is a rather drab room. It is not a room which is in keeping with the status of this House as it should be. It in no way compares to this room when it is fully displayed with its ceilings and everything else in all its glory. I see the report says that it would be impossible and unacceptable that we should move out of this House. I am not quite sure that that is true. For our sittings it would be possible to move out of this House, while we could operate from this House in terms of other work which Senators do, such as constituency work and other work like that. I would suggest that we move possibly to the Royal Hospital, Kilmainham, or to Dublin Castle where, I would have thought, it would be just as easy for facilities to be produced as it is in this House and where one could be provided with a room and with the surroundings which are in keeping with the distinction of this House.

I am not going to detain the House much longer. I am very grateful to Senator Ferris for giving way on this. I know it is unusual. The point to be made in consideration of this report is that we have been sitting in this situation for one year. All sorts of reasons have been given for the delays. We have been told that the security element caused some delay. I cannot understand why security and the vetting of the people involved can really cause this sort of delay. I cannot understand why people cannot be vetted very quickly, because vetting procedures are well known to be pretty well unenforceable and pretty inadequate. I do not think that is a reasonable excuse because I do not think it is going to work. I do not think it is going to stop people coming in who should not be coming in anyway. What I would like to ask is whether we are sure of the timetable that is set out in this report. From my reading of it we are certainly not sure of that timetable. This seems to me like a minimum timetable for the end of next year, when this Chamber will be ready. I can almost say with great certainty — and not necessarily apportioning blame—that the timetable inevitably will not be kept. More problems will be found, maybe more dry rot. Extraordinary problems arise when opening up an old building like this, which cannot be anticipated. We should, if we are being realistic, say that timetable is a minimum one. Probably the earliest we will be back here would be 1989, I should think. I would guess that with the problems in the building and construction, if we look at it in that light, maybe we would do better not to sit in the ante-room until 1987, 1988 or 1989 or indefinitely, but to actually move outside the building to somewhere which would be in keeping with the status of this House. Inevitably, if we bring people into this room at the moment, visitors quite rightly think it is a shabby place, and it is. If one takes them into the ante-room, whatever is done with it, they will think it is a shabby place. It will, unfortunately, I am afraid, reflect on the status of this House, which would be totally unjustified.

Mr. W. Ryan

I am sorry that I have come in late for this discussion. I feel that, as Senator Ross has said, there are people who, if they had known about the debate would be here. At least they should be here because the people who have been drawing our attention to this during the past six months or more are not here to hear what the explanation is.

We are all very sorry that something like this has happened. The Committee on Procedure and Privileges have discussed this at least three times with the Office of Public Works people. We wanted to stay here in this House because this is the place in which the business of this House should be conducted. It was pointed out to us that if we stay it will not be completed maybe until 1995. We had to be fair to those people and look at it in the right way. Then there was the question of whether we would go outside Leinster House altogether. Indeed, I would not at all agree with Senator Ross's suggestion that we go up to Kilmainham, away up at the other end of the city. Some Senators may not have much constituency work to do. Others have quite a lot. They must be in this House. We could have got a suitable room over across the road. Again, even in that place across the road, a Senator might feel that he or she is away from Leinster House. That is why we eventually decided to opt for the ante-room. We will make the sacrifice in order to have this Chamber restored to its former glory. We have guarantee from the Office of Public Works that the work will be completed by autumn 1987. There could be a new Seanad in the meantime. If others have any say, there will not be a Seanad at all.

Mr. Killilea

Some others.

Mr. W. Ryan

Yes. I do not believe that will happen. I was disappointed that people who had been elected to the Seanad went outside and criticised the Seanad as a useless body. As we all know, that is not true. They know it in their heart and soul, too. If they think that will get votes in a general election they can try it on. The Committee on Procedure and Privileges have decided that when we adjourn for the summer recess the Office of Public Works will have set up the ante-room as a Chamber. We have seen the plan and are satisfied it will do us. We will not have the full 60 seats there but we are not altogether worried about that. The only day on which 60 would be present is the first day we meet though we have over 40 most of the time. We will get by with it while this House is being restored.

An Cathaoirleach

The plan is available in the Clerk's Office. It is not firm but it is an indication of what is going to happen. Some changes may be made.

Mrs. Bulbulia

Thank you for the information. I will peruse the plan. I should just like to comment on it. I was interested to hear the final comments of Senator W. Ryan. He said we will get by with it. He is a member of the committee who produced this report. I wish to express our thanks to the committee for the time and effort they took in considering the matter on our behalf. But to say "we will get by with it" is a somewhat disturbing statement. This is one of the Houses of the Oireachtas and I do not think it is not good enough that "will get by" should be the sort of attitude we should take.

Mr. W. Ryan

I suppose the proper expression to use would be that "we are prepared to make a sacrifice until this House is restored".

Mrs. Bulbulia

Right. "We are prepared to make a sacrifice" but I think we have no choice but to make a sacrifice, which is a very great pity. Recently, I had the pleasure of bringing visitors to the Chamber. I have become so used to this that it is a bit like living in a house that has become slightly run down. You sort of accept it and it becomes the normal situation but when you see the faces of visitors you proudly bring in to a House of the Oireachtas and see them fall when enter this Chamber, it suddenly comes home to you that dear God it is disgraceful, albeit with beauty board and the scaffolding painted and protective covering around it so that we do not bang into it and do ourselves some kind of permanent injury. This does nothing for the status of this House. It does nothing for the status of the Members of the House. If you extend that argument, if does nothing for the country and its institutions.

The problem is bigger than originally anticipated. One must be absolutely realistic about the architectural faults and the difficulties that were found and the fact that the repair and construction work will take a considerable time. I have examined the options which the committee considered for relocating the Seanad in the course of the report presented to us here today. The option to vacate the Chamber was obviously one they could not ignore the reality of. They had an option to move to suitable outside accommodation or to move to the ante-room. Certainly, on balance, I am happy that the decision has been taken to move to the ante-room. I would be very nervous, at a time when the Seanad is under considerable attack from outside this House, that if we moved ourselves outside the confines of Leinster House we would be in some way diminishing our role as being a House of the Legislature. We would give ammunition to people who wished to see us weaken and, perhaps, fade away and die off. There can be a slow gradual process of erosion. We certainly must not assist a process of that kind.

We must do all we can to defend this House, defend its status and defend its integrity and its importance as a legislative voice in the affairs of State. On balance, to move to the anteroom was the best of the options open to the committee at the time.

The strong statement made by the committee in recommendation No. 16, that the conditions under which the Seanad had to carry out its functions were at present barely tolerable and were not consonant with the status of a House of the Oireachtas and that a further prolonged period under such conditions would not be acceptable is a very valid statement. I am absolutely in support of it, as the House will have gathered from all I said.

I am a little concerned with the provisional arrangements that are going to have to be made because there will be desks only for 46 Members in the recreated Seanad Chamber which will be the ante room. I am realistic enough to recognise the fact that, by and large, that would be sufficient accommodation for the number of Senators who would be here on any sitting day but there are, from time to time, particular occasions where a full house is here and where there are distinguished visitors and where we put on our best face if you like. If such an occasion arose, I should like to feel we would not find ourselves less than dignified in the circumstances. That is something we should bear in mind when we are talking about a possibility of having all 60 Members present and with sufficient room for the Press and reporting and for distinguished visitors and visitors, the Clerk and Assistant Clerk, reporters and everybody else who must be here. We must ensure that there is sufficient space for all of us to function at our very best and to make our best contributions to the House.

I hope sincerely that the work does not drag on and on and on and that we do not have to make repeated requests for progress reports and progress reports on the progress reports and that the work is completed early in 1987. I think we should stitch firmly into the record of the House that that is our wish and concern. The arrangements should not be temporary or provisional in the sense that they become quasi-permanent. That would be a terrible shame. It would devalue the status of the House in the eyes of the community. I thank the committee for their time and for the careful deliberations that went into this decision making. I hope that speedily we will be back in this lovely Chamber. It is quite the prettiest next, perhaps, to the Library. It is a room for which over the years I have learned to have great affection. I often wish that more was done with it in terms of hanging pictures. I think this could be looked at when we move back into it, that is, if I am here and if many of us are here then. I would like to see that suitable pictures would be taken from the National Collection, perhaps, and hung here because there is lovely hanging space and it would be particularly nice. It has always looked bare to me from that point of view. I hope that new drapes and curtains and, perhaps, a carpet will form part of the plan and perhaps a whole new colour scheme. I should like to think that we might be consulted about that through the Committee on Procedure and Privileges. Of course, I recognise that the basic structural work is the main thrust of the job in hand and that the other is purely decorative and cosmetic. It is, nonetheless, important because it is the first impression of the Chamber which the general public will have.

We have a horrible tendency in this country to denigrate, devalue and downgrade our own institutions. Recently, on a current affairs radio programme there was some comment about the role of the Seanad in the debate on the referendum. It was more or less brushed aside by a well known reporter as not being relevant. I thought that was a shame. In fact, he was allowed to get away with it. We should certainly be on the attack, all of us 60 Senators, in preserving the dignity of the House, its relevance and value in the Legislature.

An Cathaoirleach

I should like to say to the Senator that she can rest assured that I have told the Office of Public Works that I keep a very close eye on this. I told them that I would be with them at least once a week during the summer recess to see what is happening. As regards the decoration of the Seanad, it will certainly come before the House. We will have a report on it immediately we meet after the summer recess.

Mr. Killilea

I should like to say a few brief words and to follow the tone of Senator Bulbulia and other Senators here this evening regarding the dilemma facing the committee and yourself, a Chathaoirleach, as chairman of that committee in regard to what could be done concerning the plight of Senators in the building. You may recollect that on the day we were elected to the Seanad I asked you, as Cathaoirleach, if this House would soon fall?

An Cathaoirleach

I have just said it to the Clerk of the Seanad. The Senator was the first individual to bring it to notice.

Mr. Killilea

A number of Senators laughed at me and asked what on earth I was talking about. As Senator Bulbulia stated, this is a room that one grows to like and appreciate. Something which I had not noticed before was evident — the seriousness of the damage to that most magnificent ceiling. In my opinion it was startling and I am delighted that we have made a decision to preserve this Chamber in a fitting manner. If we have to sit in a car until such time as the work is completed, it will be well worthwhile.

Mrs. Bulbulia

Even if we had to use umbrellas.

An Cathaoirleach

We can go out between the drops.

Mr. Killilea

This Chamber is very significant in Irish political life and part of the decor emphasises this aspect of it. I am delighted that a decision was made to carry out this work and to have the Chamber restored to its pristine beauty. The committee must have been faced with a great dilemma because there were many options open to us. There were many people who were anxious to have us move out of this House of Parliament and go elsewhere.

I should like to dwell a few minutes on that proposition. It is alleged that there are enlightened articles by supposedly very fine scriptwriters that we should go elsewhere. I read an article about the manner in which the Seanad had a very small role to play in Irish political life. It alerted me to the fact that people would be anxious to have it situated elsewhere, away from the Kildare Street setting, in the hope that we would never be allowed to come back here. I have spent quite a substantial part of my lifetime in this House, and I spent part of my life in the other House. I know the modus operandi in both Houses. To a working Senator there is not any significant difference between the two, because one is expected to do exactly the same thing all the time in regard to constituency work and pressure groups. A Senator is exposed to the same strain as any Deputy. Indeed, in certain rural areas Senators undergo a far greater strain than many Deputies.

The only option that I though might be taken was to move downstairs to the Library. I can well imagine that it might upset many people in the system operating in the Houses of the Oireachtas to move into the Library. I can understand that point of view. No matter what we do, there will be great shortage of space. For example, is the room beneath the ante-room on the ground floor bigger than the ante-room? It is not? It seems much bigger than the ante-room. I do not know if any thought was given to that proposal.

An Cathaoirleach

We are not hard on space.

Mr. Killilea

There was this question of the working and functions of the Seanad which was referred to at a conference last weekend, when the Seanad was attacked. I could calculate the reasons why for it is easy for that political party, if that is what you call them, to attack the Seanad. From the numbers attached to the electorate of that political party, it will be long time before a Senator from that party will ever be elected to this House. It is easy to grouse when outside the door. The few Senators they have here at the moment came by most peculiar means.

An Cathaoirleach

The Senator is not in order.

Mr. Killilea

I am not out of order either. When people outside attack this House, I am sure Members inside are entitled to defend it.

An Cathaoirleach

Not on this occasion.

Mr. Killilea

I have consistently and persistently defended the rights of Senators in this House for as long as I have been in it. It is little things that matter to Senators. I am annoyed by this latest ruling of our not being able to send out telegrams in the normal way.

An Cathaoirleach

The Senator is out of order.

Mr. Killilea

I do not know what advice the Cathaoirleach may get from any source but I would say this——

An Cathaoirleach

It is not in order.

Mr. Killilea

If we allow ourselves to be denuded little by little, bit by bit, it is like the ceiling of this House: if allowed to continue, it will fall. Senators will always like to remain in the this Chamber. It has tremendous value. Many people do not take these points seriously. I have been harping on this question for some time and got no answer. I am going to be more insistent about this matter. I will take it to the maximum extent to make sure that the privileges I have enjoyed in this House since 1969 cannot and will not be taken from me by any person.

An Cathaoirleach

The Senator has my support and that of every Senator in the House.

Mr. Killilea

I do not see many results from the support. I want results. It means a lot to me. I know that many Senators nodded in agreement with me the day I first brought it up here. It is as important as our going to the ante-room because it is the self-same thing as the fixing of the roof.

An Cathaoirleach

It was not the Committee on Procedure and Privileges that fell down here. I suggest that the Senator talk to the Whips of the party.

Mr. Killilea

I have no intention of talking to the Whips of the party. I am fed up talking to the Whips of the party because all I got was a little letter with a ring-a-rosey around a particular line. If there is something wrong in what they wrote to us, then they should change it to make it correct so that we have what we always had, the same as we are agreeing here this evening to go out to the ante-room to have what we always had inside here. It is the same thing. I am fed up with this nonsense. I am quite categoric about this. If we allow this to continue, we will have nothing left and we are only offering ourselves as cockshots for people throughout conferences who spend hours yapping about why they should get rid of Seanad Éireann.

An Cathaoirleach

We have dealt with that already.

Mr. Killilea

We have not. It will never be dealt with until after the next general election.

Mr. Ferris

And then effectively.

Mr. Killilea

I also want to raise another matter arising from this report. It concerns the facilities that will have to be made available for the press and for guests. I do not know how physically space can be made available. It is a major problem. I suggest that if some type of addition could be made to the corridor outside the main entrance here it might give visible access to the sittings. It would look very bad if we had to debar the press.

An Cathaoirleach

There is no question of debarring them.

Mr. Killilea

We are debarring them physically in that we have no space.

An Cathaoirleach

No, we are not. We are accommodating them inside.

Mr. Killilea

We only have space to accommodate a limited number.

An Cathaoirleach

A limited number and a limited number of visitors.

Mr. Killilea

I could not see here where it specifically stated that we had space to allow the press in. I felt if we could use that little portion of space at the door as an extra——

An Cathaoirleach

I suggest the Senator have a look at the map in the Clerk's Office. It is not completely firm. It will be changed a little but I suggest that the Senator look at it and if there is anything——

Mr. Killilea

It would not do at all if we were seen not to be physically able to provide accommodation. I am not saying we are trying to do it in any devious way but the actual physical capacity of the room creates a problem.

An Cathaoirleach

All the staff here will be in the ante-room. It may be a little limited but they will be there anyway.

Mr. Killilea

I appreciate the dedicated work the committee had to do in order to try to come to an arrangement where speed and efficiency would be instilled into the mind of the Office of Public Works taking into account that they have a nice summer to tackle the problem here which is obviously a serious problem.

We beseech them to put massive manpower to work here to expedite this work so that there will be no discomfort to any Members of the House, to any of the staff, to any of the press or to members of the public who might like to come in. I want to compliment the committee on the decision that we remain in Leinster House in some form even though it is a tight shot. If there is any suggestion arising from this report that we should move outside Leinster House, I would be absolutely against it. For that reason I think that we should put up with the inconvenience of the situation that has been created. We hope we are doing it in a good cause to re-establish Seanad Éireann to its former status and so that the interior of this most beautiful room will be restored to its original glory and Members can be proud of this Chamber for many years to come, in the knowledge that it will have a major role to play in Irish political life and in Irish society in general.

An Cathaoirleach

I might mention, before I call on Senator Ferris to conclude, that I discussed this matter with the two architects from the Office of Public Works and they say that the latest date they are hoping for is October 1987, and they are hoping for an earlier date. That is the true situation——

Mr. Killilea

Will we have an official opening?

An Cathaoirleach

I hope to be here anyway, I do not know what the Senator's thinking is.

Mr. Killilea

Will the Senator be in the Chair then?

An Cathaoirleach

I will. It is October 1987 and there are two months to go after.

Mr. Killilea

The Senator's political goose will be cooked by that time.

Mr. Ferris

I will open my remarks by saying that with the help of God all of us who have an interest in the Seanad will be here again when it is reopened and ensure that it is given its proper status as a House of the Oireachtas. I think the Members who have addressed themselves to this problem are people who have a great deal of interest in the Houses of the Oireachtas and particularly in this House and by their performances here have proven that they have an interest in it as well. I want to concur with everything that has been said by Senators Brown, Ross, Kiely, Bulbulia, Willie Ryan, Howard, Durcan, Hillery and Killilea. They have renewed my confidence in their commitment to the House and I share their frustrations about what has happened. I am glad that the Cathaoirleach has given the assurances that he has because in the independent, neutral position he holds he has been a staunch supporter of this House in the Committee on Procedure and Privileges, he has defended this House and he does not want to tolerate any unnecessary delays from any source. Indeed, when the OPW suggested the latest date as October 1987 he insisted that it would have to be earlier and our recommendations to you are that we would ask them to have it completed as early as possible in 1987.

One of the questions asked was: is there anything happening up here now? The reality is that while we are sitting, nothing can happen but work is going on every day that we are not sitting here. Last week, for example, the Office of Public Works could work up there for one day, on Monday. They have taken plaster casts and they have everything in that line going on without interrupting the Seanad. When we are sitting, they are precluded from working, which is one of the dilemmas we were faced with, and particularly to attack anything in a structural way would need the suspension of the Seanad; otherwise they would be unable to address themselves to the problem.

Work is going on when we are not here. Because we have been sitting so often we have curtailed the amount of work that can be done and certainly we have stopped any structural work being done. We were faced with the dilemma that we had to decide to move out of here or we would never get it done. We considered moving out of Leinster House and the vast majority of people who are involved as busy Senators as part of the Oireachtas and Parliamentary parties and others decided that we should not leave the precincts and that is why we opted for the ante-room which is the only room available in the House to us finally from the other CPP who refused us the Library which would have been ideal and it was my own personal choice as well. I want finally to quote the Minister of State at the Office of Public Works, Deputy Bermingham who said on the Adjournment Matter at column 753, Volume 110, of the Official Report of 5 December 1985:

The Commissioners will ensure that very special attention will be given to the work. I ask the House to be patient while the work is being carried out and I guarantee that the result will be a completely refurbished Chamber of which the Senators will be proud.

If we achieve that, and we are proud of it, and if the end result enhances the House we will all welcome it. We are sorry this has arisen. It is outside our control.

I appreciate the comments of Senators who are anxious that the work is done as speedily as possible, that the end result will be in keeping with the importance of the House and that we will be able to move back and carry out our statutory work required of us by the Constitution. Whatever about the knockers the Constitution requires us to play a role in the formulation of legislation. If anybody takes an interest in the House they will realise that that is what we do. This is not a talking shop. In the last two or three years a lot of legislation has been initiated here. We are justified in requesting a proper chamber in which to do our work efficiently. The surroundings should be such as befits a House of the Oireachtas, especially the Upper House of the Oireachtas.

The matters raised by Senator Killilea are not relevant to this debate but involve privileges that Members are entitled to. I should like to assure him that I raised the matter he referred to at the Committee on Procedure and Privileges. It is to be the subject of a special meeting with the Minister for the Public Service. I hope that difficulty will be overcome in the very near future. The meeting we had arranged was cancelled at the last minute for other reasons but we have set a new date and I hope the matter Senator Killilea is worried about will be cleared up with the Minister for the Public Service. Senator Killilea's comments have my full support.

I should like to thank the House for their consideration of the report. I should like to tell Senator Howard that we want the work completed as early as possible in 1987. The Cathaoirleach has committed himself to ensuring that in his consultations with the Office of Public Works the target date will be met.

Question put and agreed to.

Acting Chairman (Mr. Fitzsimons)

May I ask the Acting Leader of the House when it is proposed to meet again?

Mr. Ferris

It is proposed to meet at 10.30 a.m. tomorrow and it is proposed to take Nos. 3 and 7 on today's Order Paper in that order. I wish to apologise for the change in the Order of Business this evening, which was unavoidable.

The Seanad adjourned at 8.10 p.m. until 10.30 a.m. on Wednesday, 28 May 1986.