Irish Nationality and Citizenship Bill, 1985: Second Stage (Resumed).

Question again proposed: "That the Bill be now read a Second Time."

Mr. Fitzsimons

My contribution will be very brief. I welcome the Bill. While it is a short Bill I am satisfied that it is an important one. It is a pity we did not have an explanatory memorandum. While I welcome the Bill I am not sure that its speedy passage through the House is all that critical. Perhaps there are other areas to which we should give priority.

Anyone concerned with the status of women would welcome developments in this area. As a member of the Joint Committee on Women's Rights I have a particular interest. The members of the committee are totally dedicated in this area. There are many areas in which there is discrimination. We have people who are very helpful and who come before the committee and, at the same time, we have people who resent this and who do not give the help and encouragement one would expect.

On Second Stage we are talking about the background to the Bill and I am in order to refer in passing to the religion situation in this country. The Minister said in his introductory speech that the Bill is important also in that it is another step in the elimination from our laws of unequal treatment based on sex. I have referred to religion and the difficulty I have with regard to my Church, the Roman Catholic Church. I believe it has done an enormous amount of work for women, in spite of the epistles and the letters of St. Paul in which he said wives should be subject to their husbands and so on. The Roman Catholic religion and the Christian religion have recognised the dignity and the importance of women and are responsible in many ways for the special position of women in our society.

At the same time, the Catholic Church does not allow women to be ordained priests. The seven sacraments are available in certain circumstances to men, but women may only avail of six of them. They may not be ordained under any circumstances. This is a fundamental hindrance in the area of equality for women. This same religion is concerned at present about the referendum, especially in relation to women, yet women may not be ordained priests. There may have been a problem in this regard 2,000 years ago. Nowadays it is very difficult to criticise so many areas. We condemn associations, for example, golf clubs, who do not give equal treatment to men and women. Yet the basic force in our society, the Catholic Church which sets the moral values and the values we should aspire to refuses to do so. It is very difficult to convince many of these associations and groups that women must get total equality in a country where most of the people belong to the Roman Catholic religion and where the Church refuses to confer this equality on women.

In my time women slaved. In the past we have been commended for being a caring society, looking after the old and the infirm. In many cases it was women who were dedicated to doing that. Of course, now they expect more, and very rightly so. This could be regarded as the cause of the problem of unemployment in some ways. If women were content to remain at home as they did in the past and not pursue their talents we would not have the same concern in this area. Women want to develop and use their talents whether they are married or single. This is right and proper.

This morning I heard a short report on the radio regarding women in national schools. They do not get the opportunities that men get to become principals. It referred to the woman in the home, carrying the baby, feeding it with a bottle and waiting for the babysitter. The core of the problem is missed out when men have to make sacrifices. If women are to get equality, men will have to settle for less jobs or even stay at home. When people get married, some kind of an arrangement should be entered into by both partners which sets out their aims and objectives so that they can help one another in this regard. It is very commendable that we should remove discrimination, including class discrimination. It is fair to say men have proved themselves in many situations because women were excluded from them. We are now coming into an area of pluralism and I welcome that.

The question of Irish citizenship, which we are dealing with in this Bill, is very valuable. In Article 40 of the Constitution we are told that: "All citizens shall, as human persons, be held equal before the law". When aliens marry an Irish spouse once they become citizens they are entitled to be held equal before the law the same as people who were reared and spent their whole life in Ireland.

The Irish Nationality and Citizenship Act, 1956, is the parent Act. People in the North, the partitioned part of our country, have an automatic right to citizenship and I believe many of them use the facility. We were concerned about the rights of British citizens living here to vote in general elections. We gave them that right. People from the North who are residing here have a right to vote in local elections, but Irish citizens residing in the North do not have that right. When we talk about citizenship, we talk about the kind of Ireland we dream about and hope to build. We want to make it a place in which men and women who marry aliens will want to live and bring up their family. In that regard, we must try to solve the unemployment problem. We must try to solve all our social problems. That is regarded as proper and desirable by all of us.

I welcome the concept of equality for women. At present if an Irish man marries an alien, as termed in the Bill, his wife gets automatic citizenship if she makes a declaration. This is not by virtue of marriage alone. Foreign husbands of Irish citizens do not have the same right. This is regarded as discrimination against women. They do not have the power to confer that right in the same way as men do. There is a three years waiting period from the time of marriage. This was explained by the Minister in her introductory speech and is dealt with in section 3 of the Bill.

With regard to the differentiation referred to by the Minister and which was dealt with by the Council of Europe in 1977 in their recommendations, the Government have been very generous. For example, they recommended:

Not to require for the acquisition of the nationality by the foreign spouse of a national more than five years residence in their territory including not more than three years of residence after the marriage.

The Minister pointed out all the options which were available and the thinking behind them. She said:

The option which the Government has selected is to give a right to citizenship to foreign spouses of Irish nationals provided that the marriage to the Irish citizen is of at least three years duration, that it is subsisting and that the couple are living together as a husband and wife.

It is not necessary to live in Ireland in order to qualify in this regard. The Minister also told us that the Government had decided to give a right of nationality and "it does not necessarily involve residence in Ireland." I fully appreciate that a couple hitherto living in that situation and wanting to come to Ireland, would not be able to get employment precisely because one of them would not be a citizen of this country. That person could not get citizenship without residing here for a specified period of two years. I am glad that vicious circle has been ended.

With regard to facilitating greatly families who wish to return to Ireland, I am not clear if so many will want to, but I hope they will. In relation to the new section which was added in the Dáil, section 7 regarding renouncement of Irish citizenship, the Minister did not refer to this so far as I am aware in her introductory speech and I am wondering why it had to be included or if there are many people who renounce their Irish citizenship? I am not too clear if there is such a thing as dual citizenship or even if a person could be a citizen of more than one, two or three states. If that is the situation, it seems strange that someone would want to renounce their Irish citizenship. There must be a sound reason for doing so. I would like the Minister to refer to it briefly in her reply.

The existing law in this respect is the Irish Nationality and Citizenship Act, 1956. As law goes 30 years is not a long time. There are very many much older Acts which would need to be updated. Like other Members of the House, I welcome this Bill. It shows concern for the equality of women. I realise that the Government are being urged by the Council of Europe and by the EC commitments in this respect.

In 1985, 513 women acquired citizenship on lodgement of declaration after marriage to Irish citizens, and only 81 men were granted certificates of naturalisation after marriage to Irish women. I am not too sure if it is envisaged that there will be a dramatic change in this area. More husbands will apply for citizenship subsequent to the legislation, if they think it is important and if they have that affinity towards this country, which I hope they will. In any event, they will be able to apply for citizenship more or less straight away, whereas under the 1956 Act they would have to meet the requirement of residence.

The Domicile and Recognition of Foreign Divorces Bill, 1985, also highlighted the problems and the inequality in this area. For example, an Irishman could leave his wife in Ireland, go to England and obtain a divorce whereas an Irish wife could not do the same because she would have the domicile of her husband. I am glad that situation has been changed.

Section 2 of the Bill proposes to amend section 7 of the 1956 Act which provides for the granting of citizenship by registration to people of Irish descent. The position seems to be that a person applying for registration in this way would be deemed to have citizenship from birth. The Minister told us that this was the intention of the 1956 Act when it was being drafted. For that reason, it is very important that on Committee Stage we go into all the details on the intent and wording of all of these sections. I suppose this is not a critically important section. It seems strange that there would be a deficiency about it and that the intent could not be described simply. It should not be a difficult job for a draftsman, who goes through so many intricate Bills and details, to miss out on this. It is not of fundamental importance.

The Minister has told us that people of Irish ancestry take out Irish citizenship simply as a safeguard in case their children should ever need a second citizenship in future. We have some statistics in this area relating to one year, 1984-85. When one considers all the bureaucracy involved in these matters, filling forms, making applications and so on, should we not have on file enough information to provide us with statistics to cover any period?

With regard to refugees, I read from time to time, that there are problems at our airports for people who want to come into this country. The general belief is, at least, that we do not help as many as we could and perhaps this would be an appropriate time to do something about that. I merely make this reference in passing.

The Bill will benefit only a fairly limited number of people, as the Minister has stated. While we do not know how many people will avail of these means of becoming citizens, one wonders how welcome they are to do so generally. Is it something that we really welcome? Is there any special advantage to this country apart from the advantages that accrue to them? In effect, are we encouraging it? These are just a few brief thoughts which come to mind.

In conclusion, I welcome anything that would help to bring an end to this discrimination against women. Consequently, I welcome the Bill.

Mr. Durcan

I should like to contribute briefly to this Bill. Any Bill which affects the acquisition of citizenship by an alien is a Bill which must, at first glance, be examined carefully. Irish citizenship is something which we, as Irish citizens, treasure very dearly. We are aware of the constitutional rights and privileges which we have by virtue of the fact of our Irish citizenship.

It follows, therefore, that any legislation which comes before both Houses of the Oireachtas and which has the effect of enabling the acquisition of Irish citizenship by an alien is a measure which must be looked at with particular care and attention.

This Bill simply reflects current international and social thinking and as such amends the 1956 Irish Nationality and Citizenship Act. The main purpose of the Bill is to provide a statutory right to Irish citizenship for spouses of Irish citizens after three years of marriage. That is a statutory automatic right provided the statutory conditions prescribed in section 3 of this Bill are complied with. It is a reasonable provision that the spouse of an Irish citizen, whether that spouse be man or woman, should be entitled without the necessity of residence or without the necessity of the existence of ministerial discretion to obtain Irish citizenship provided that alien, for a period of three years, has been married to an Irish citizen. As the Minister of State said in her speech in this House, and indeed in the other House, the main thrust of the Bill follows on international obligations entered into by us and to international obligations to which we have been a party. The Minister of State referred to a resolution of the Council of Europe of May 1977 and also the United Nations Convention on the elimination of all forms of discrimination against women. In so far as the Bill in section 3 effects that purpose, I welcome it.

It is appropriate at this point to compliment and congratulate the Minister of State for her work in this regard. This Bill appropriately follows on the consideration by this House of the Domicile and Recognition of Foreign Divorces Bill. That Bill in another small way had the effect of chipping away at the type of discrimination against women which existed, and indeed still exists to a great measure, in our legislation. In so far as the Minister of State is removing gradually these forms of discrimination, I welcome this Bill and I welcome in particular the provision contained in section 3. I welcome also from a practical and technical point of view the fact that citizenship may be acquired simply by the completion of the declaration in the prescribed form. I presume that the form will be prescribed by ministerial regulation. I wonder at this stage if the Bill contains a specific subsection to give the relevant Minister power to make the regulations in question, or perhaps that power is already conferred by the 1956 Act which I did not have an opportunity to look at.

I have been pleased to note in the past the strict ease with which people who are entitled to Irish citizenship have been able to obtain it. From practical experience I have been aware of situations where confirmation of Irish citizenship has been required as a matter of urgency for legal reasons. I would like to compliment the officials at the Department of Foreign Affairs, not alone in Dublin but in our embassies abroad, for helping people to have declared their right to Irish citizenship. I hope that the regulations made under section 3 of this Bill will allow that easy approach to continue while at the same time ensuring that the necessary safeguards are maintained.

As I said at the outset Irish citizenship is something which is valuable and must not be abused. We are living in a troubled world and we are conscious of the fact that many descendants of Irish people live in troubled corners of the globe. Trouble in their particular corners may, for reasons pertaining to political difficulties, give rise to applications for Irish citizenship. One need only reflect on the fact that many people of Irish descent live in South Africa, in parts of South America and indeed in other troubled places and I would like to be assured that applications by such persons will be considered with ease but also with all due scrutiny.

I welcome also the provision in the Bill which eases in certain respects the position so far as refugees are concerned. Citizenship is something we value. At the same time we are all aware of the tremendous tragedy of displaced persons. We have experienced in recent times the problems people can suffer when political boundaries are redrawn. Perhaps the greatest human tragedy which can be inflicted on any person is to find that he or she has, in effect, become displaced. We in Ireland have played a role by welcoming a certain number of Vietnamese refugees who reside not very far from here. I would like to see the rights of those persons being ensured in a way that gives them a sense of security.

In conclusion I welcome the Bill and I compliment the Minister of State once again for her commitment to ensure equality and for her continuing determination which is evidenced by her increasing presence in this House in bringing forward the necessary legislation to ensure that the kind of inequality which now exists is removed from our legislation.

Minister of State at the Department of the Taoiseach (Mrs. Fennell)

I should like to thank those Senators who have contributed to this debate and indeed it is very gratifying to come into the House and bring forward two amending pieces of legislation which will enable us to delete some of the reservations from the UN Convention on the elimination of discrimination against women. As Senator Durcan said it is important that we change the law to enable women to be reflected equally with men in our State. One would wish I suppose that the changes in law could be reflected to a greater degree in general attitudes but that is something that is recognised as being slow elsewhere in the world and we are no different. It is certainly important that we should have our laws reflect equal treatment in the eighties.

To deal with the points raised, Senator Ryan mentioned that the phrase "Irish associations" in section 16, as substituted by section 5 of the Bill, is not defined. The phrase "Irish associations" is in the 1956 Act and, indeed, there was considerable debate on that phrase when the 1955 Bill was going through the Houses of the Oireachtas. One speaker felt that the phrase could refer to the case of an Arab in Cairo drinking a glass of Irish whiskey and thus being qualified to claim naturalisation because he had Irish associations. The then Minister, Mr. Everett, confirmed that the fact that "Irish associations" was not defined in the Bill was deliberate. He pointed out that the same expression occurred in the 1935 Act on nationality and citizenship. He said that it was intended to cover unusual circumstances such as an alien who had been in Ireland for many years but who for some reason was unable to fulfil the conditions concerning a continuous year's residence in the State prior to the date of application for naturalisation. In this context he gave the example of a person who was in the State for a considerable number of years but had succeeded in getting a scholarship which required that he study abroad for a number of months in each year. Unless there was some provision for unusual cases of this nature it would not be possible to give naturalisation to a person who was fitted in every other way to obtain naturalisation.

When this Bill was being debated in the Dáil a set of circumstances were mentioned in which the granting of naturalisation by reference to the phrase "Irish associations" would be appropriate. The case referred to was that of a couple in a marriage of mixed nationality where the Irish partner died within three years of the marriage. In such a case the foreign spouse would not qualify to take Irish citizenship by post-nuptial declaration as he or she would not have been married to the Irish person for three years as is required in the new section 8 which is being inserted by section 3 of the Bill. In a case such as this the Minister could exercise his discretion and give naturalisation on the grounds that the surviving spouse had Irish associations and, accordingly, the normal conditions for naturalisation need not be fulfilled in that case.

I am satisfied that the discretion which was originally included in the 1956 Act, and which is now being repeated in the Bill before the House, should remain in the Bill and that the term "Irish associations" should not be defined. The purpose of that phrase is to give the Minister power to grant naturalisation without the normal conditions being fulfilled where a deserving case is brought to his notice. We can, of course, envisage some sets of circumstances in which it would be appropriate for the Minister to exercise that discretion but, undoubtedly, there would be other sets of circumstances arising down through the years which we cannot foresee at present. Accordingly, it is appropriate that the term "Irish associations" should be left undefined.

Senator Ryan referred to the fact that spouses of naturalised citizens may not obtain citizenship by post-nuptial declaration. This is the position in the new section 8 being substituted by section 3 of the Bill. It is also the position under the current section 8 of the 1956 Act. The new section 8 is not making any change in this regard as compared with the original section 8.

Citizenship obtained by naturalisation, which is provided for in Part III of the 1956 Act, is not quite on a par with the citizenship obtained under Part II of the Act in that citizenship under Part III may be revoked by the Minister in certain circumstances provided for in the Act. Spouses of naturalised citizens should continue to be dealt with under Part III of the Act as it would not be appropriate that the spouse of a person who has citizenship under Part III should, by virtue of being married to that person, be able to get what may be termed the higher grade citizenship which is obtainable under Part II.

Senator O'Leary in his contribution referred to the fact that grandchildren of Irish born citizens will continue to be able to obtain citizenship by registration. He also raised the point whether citizenship by descent should be confined to the first generation born abroad. This is a very important point. Our citizenship legislation is considered liberal by comparison with the citizenship laws of many other countries. However, that liberal approach is explained by our history. Down through the centuries millions of people have had to leave Ireland and make their lives in other countries. Many of them have retained their sense of being Irish from generation to generation. This fact has been recognised in our citizenship legislation and provision has been included to enable descendants of Irish born people to obtain Irish citizenship. To make a change in our approach on this question would be a major change in the policy that has been reflected in our legislation to date. There are very weighty arguments against making any change. There are many thousands of people of Irish descent who are proud of their Irish heritage and who wish to maintain Irish citizenship in their families from generation to generation. That opportunity should not be denied to them.

I should also mention that the objectives of the Bill now under consideration were very limited. The main objective was to eliminate the differentiation as between men and women in the acquisition of citizenship by spouses of Irish citizens. A few other non-controversial changes were provided for in the Bill as initiated and some further changes were decided on during the passage of the Bill through Dáil Éireann. Again, these latter changes were of relatively minor significance and were non-controversial. I feel that consideration of the point raised by Senator O'Leary would be outside the scope and intention of the Bill in that if a change were to be made it would be a radical change in our policy and one that would require much more consideration than has been given to the topic in the context of this legislation.

The amendment to section 7 (2) of the 1956 Act is intended to restore the position to what was intended when the 1956 Act was being drafted, that the citizenship of a person registering would date from the date of registration or the date of passing of the Act, whichever was the later, and that citizenship would not be backdated to date of birth.

Following the passing of the Bill families of Irish extraction who wish to maintain Irish citizenship from generation to generation will continue to be able to do so provided each generation registers before the next generation is born. Families with a real sense of their Irishness will be able to maintain the citizenship link. The amendment will operate against families who have not maintained the link and who, it is felt, are now using the law as it stands in an opportunistic manner by obtaining Irish citizenship for use in some future emergency rather than taking Irish citizenship through a very real pride in their Irishness.

Senator Fitzsimons referred to refugee applications. Refugee applications at airports are appropriate to the Aliens Act, 1935, and not to the Irish Nationality and Citizenship Act. However, all refugee applications are dealt with sympathetically by the Minister and his Department in consultation with the Department of Foreign Affairs and the office of the United Nations High Commissioner for Refugees. The terms of the 1951 UN Convention on the status of refugees are also taken into account.

A further point raised by Senator Fitzsimons was with regard to the renouncing of Irish citizenship. Some states require when a person is taking their citizenship that they renounce their citizenship of origin. Germany is one of those states. In many other case people can hold dual citizenship.

Senator Durcan spoke about the power of the Minister to make regulations. I would like to assure him that this is contained in the 1956 Act.

Question put and agreed to.

An Leas-Chathaoirleach

When is it proposed to take the next Stage?

Professor Dooge

I see no reason the next Stage should not be taken now. I do not think any substantial points were raised on Second Stage and nobody gave notice of any intention to put down an amendment. I hesitate in putting this forward in a House of small attendance but as Leader of the House I see no reason we should not proceed.

Agreed to take remaining Stages today.

Seanad Éireann debate - Wednesday, 25 Jun 1986